 Hello, welcome everybody. Welcome to another edition of DM's European tour, Beyond the Balcony. This morning the road leads us to Germany to one of our big collectives, very important collectives. We will touch upon a couple of topics and I'm really looking forward to it. We are at a moment of time when the world is becoming different, Europe is burning, post-COVID normal is not going to be normal and maybe it shouldn't be because normal was not good either. So what we should figure out today is what is coming after corona crisis? Is that what we call post-capitalism? What is our agenda? What is our plan? How to motivate, activate, grow the movement? And of course what are the new policies in this time that we should move forward? So without further ado, I will pass the floor to Yanis for his brief introduction and then we will take a round of interventions. Yanis, please. Am I muted? No, not. Thank you, Vanne. Thank you, everyone. These teleconferences are the reason why I'm still hopeful about Europe because it reminds us of why we're here, why we created Diem and it reminds us of how essential Diem remains, perhaps more essential than ever. Why am I saying that? Well, think of what's been happening in the last few weeks. We have the suspension of capitalism. Capitalism is on pause, not ended, but it's not functioning either. For the first time in 300 years, something happened that not even during war happens. Capitalism is paused. Let me imagine that during war, even the Second World War, capitalism was boosted. If anything, the factories worked faster than ever. The circuits of capital were replenished. War has always given an impetus to capitalism, to markets, and to capital accumulation. So this is unprecedented. Capitalism is on hold, which means collapse because when capitalism is paused, you just don't stop time. It's not as if this is a video or a movie where you put it on pause because while production, consumption has collapsed, debt is keep rising, deficits keep rising, people are getting hungrier in some places or more anxious. So it's not exactly a pause. There's no pause in people's lives or a pause in society's evolution. There is a pause in capitalism, which is always separate from society. So we have a complete collapse. We have a magnificent opportunity as Europeans to use this crisis in order to get closer together. Since this is a symmetric threat, it's happening everywhere. It's worse in some countries than in others, but it's happening everywhere. Like, you know, 2010 when some Europeans could be lulled into believing that this was a Greek crisis or a Irish crisis or a Portuguese crisis. Now everybody knows that, you know, they're all in the same boat. So this is the moment for unification, and yet exactly the opposite is happening. Just listen to our leaders coming out of the European Union on the 20th of April. Sorry about this, Mowgli is intervening. And in particular, and this is going to the heart of Diem's existence, I'm appalled by all this discussion in the south of Europe about two things which I find heart-wrenching and abominable. One is all this discussion about the lack of solidarity by Germany to Italy, the lack of solidarity by Holland to Greece, this North-South divide. Okay, I'm absolutely appalled by that. You remember when we created Diem, we said something that really struck people. We said, there's no such thing as Germany. Have any sentence beginning with the Germans think that or do this is wrong, because there is no such thing as the Germans. In the same way, there's no such thing as the Italians. When we talk about the Italians, we mean Salvini, Berlusconi, our comrades in Italy. Who are we talking about? Who are we talking about? So let's remember that. So you see, this crisis now is dividing Europe even further, creating this, us, them, Germans, Greeks, Northern and Southerners thing, which is why we were created to end. And the arguments, even arguments meant to support things that we want, like Eurobonds, like fiscal union, so that we can unify Europe, because if you don't unify the debt, taxes, industrial policy, the fight against tax evasion and tax havens and so on. If you don't unify that across Europe, then you don't have a United Europe. You have a joke, which is what we've been having so far. But to call for that, on the basis of solidarity, is a great gift to the enemies of Europe. I wrote an article which was published in various places in different languages. It was in Germany in the standard to the Austrian newspaper two days ago. I said, so the last thing we need now is solidarity. We need solidarity amongst the MS, and we need solidarity amongst the working class. But to say that we need the Eurobond, we need to have a common debt instrument for the purposes of solidarity, is to give a fantastic gift to Mr. Schultz, Olaf Schultz, the finance minister of the Federal Republic, to Mr. Hextre, the Dutch finance minister. Because Hextre turned around and said, very correctly, say, of course we should be solidaristic to the Greeks and to the Italians during these times. I'll give them as much money as I can spare. You can save some money and give them some more money. But solidarity does not compel me to go into joint debt with them. This is a very powerful argument, and you know what? It's completely correct. If you want to give me money, because I'm not doing well, let's say. That's solidarity, you give me some money, and you help me. But solidarity does not compel you to take out a joint loan with me, which I can then spend anywhere I want. So the arguments for fiscal union cannot be based on solidarity, because then you have a completely warped situation where the North turns against the South by saying, you want my solidarity, but why do you want me to go into debt for you? And the South turns against the North for not showing solidarity. It is really very clear the architecture of the Euro is created in such a way as to ensure that the oligarchy of Germany, the oligarchy of Italy, the oligarchy of Greece, have all the instruments they need to be helped by the institutions of the modern union, like the European Central Bank. The European Central Bank helps German banks, Greek banks, German companies, Greek oligarchs. They just, you know, they print money. The oligarchy, the German oligarchy and the Greek oligarchy and the Italian oligarchy have all the institutions in place to reflow them. But the architecture of the Euro is such that not one single democratically elected leader, not even Merkel, has any instruments at their disposal, substantially to shift wealth from the rich to the poor. Okay, so the Euro architecture is created in such a way as to turn the people of Greece, Germany and so on against one another to cover up for the fact that we have a union, the purpose of which is to look after the oligarchy and not the German workers, not the Greek workers, not the Italian workers. So when we start arguments about, you know, the lack of solidarity in the European Union Council and how bad the Germans are for not giving money to, you know, or going into joint debt with Italians, that's where DM comes in and says, stop. We are not allowing this to divide us, because it is the wrong analysis leading to toxic politics. And when people say to me, is the time for the countries of the South to unite? Because the Germans and the Dutch are not playing ball. I come down on them like a ton of bricks. Now, we must not fear that this integration of the European Union to the extent that we raise our hands and surrender to the oligarchy that is instrumental in bringing about the destruction of the European Union. So when they say to us, ah, but you know, if you're constructive disobedience by saying no in the European Union Council, you will be destroying the European Union. We say, no, you are destroying the European Union. And our disobedience in the European Union in the town hall everywhere are saying no to you and saying, you want to destroy the European Union, you do it, you are not having our consent. This big no, fat no, is our way of saving the European Union and actually making it worthwhile saving, because we don't want to save an iron cage of austerity for our peoples, whether they're German or Greeks or Spanish or Portuguese. Now, them must fight harder than ever, because we are now, I think, personally, now let me share a very pessimistic prognosis with you. We're past the point of no return. I don't think that you can be saved. This is my assessment. If we couldn't have used the coronavirus crisis in order to politically unite and physically unite, I don't think we can. Now, we're not going to go out there and advocate the end of the EU. This is our analysis, my analysis. We should be prepared for it. We should go out there and constantly live with ideas that would cure and heal the European Union. But we must not be stupid. Those who are in authority are already setting the train towards a junction where it will be derailed. I believe that derailment has already happened, but it is in slow motion. So we need to plan DiEM25 2.0. We need to be more radical and we need to plan for a time when the nationalist international has won. Not because we want it, but because we have a duty. I'm waiting to hear from you. Thank you, Yanis. And now after this introduction and the urgency that is really there and the crossroads where we are standing at. So one of our most important policies for green, more just Europe and the world is of course Green New Deal. So I would like to give the floor to Vincent now and he will give us his view on this and then we will have a round of interventions. Vincent, please. Yes. All right. Thank you, Ivana. And thank you, Yanis. Yes, I agree with you. We have to push the narrative of our Green New Deal for Europe to what comes after the current health crisis of COVID-19. And regarding the Green New Deal for Europe campaign, I am glad to report that our German team managed to translate the whole Green New Deal group print and release it very recently on the website. However, in order to be more successful with pushing the narrative of the Green New Deal for Europe, I think we still lack some consistency and conformity with our messaging. So for instance, I was quite astonished when I read the three points of plan against the COVID-19 depression. And don't get me wrong, it seems to be a really good plan. However, here's the thing, don't call it ECRA. Simply call it the Green Public Works Agency, just like in our Green New Deal for Europe paper. Don't call it the Green Recovery and Investment Program. Call it the Green New Deal for Europe. And by the way, also, why we added, don't call it Eurobond if what we're actually proposing is not a Eurobond. See from my understanding. And the concept of Eurobond means that EU member states collectively issue debt and that this debt is guaranteed by the collective solvency and the collective credit worthiness of these member states. But what we propose in this three points plan are actually bonds issued by the ECB. So therefore the ECB is the debtor and these are ECB bonds, I think, from what I can tell. And yes, it might just be a technicality, but with huge indications because it directly relates to who has to pay the interest for these bonds and on which showed us the debt burden lies and who has to make the principal payment on the bonds mature. So I just want to advocate and let's be honest with ourselves, first of all, and then also let's be honest with the public and deploy a clear coherent and most importantly consistent and the same message all across Europe. And because and to finish on a somehow, I don't know, I really believe that Team 25's policies, our progressive agenda for Europe has a good shot at gaining some responses and some steam within the European political sphere, but not by itself simply or by the strength of the arguments. And there need to be consistency in messaging and inverting and framing of things. And yeah, by the way, I conclude my remarks. Thank you. Vincent, and now we will go to Maike. Maike, please. Yes, thank you. I just present myself in one sentence. My name is Maike, I'm part of the board of the electoral electoral wing in Germany, the Mokatin Aupa and I'm also part of the Green New Deal campaign. So this is why I go just on to talk about it because for me, there's just one answer if we talk about the question what is coming after Corona or what has to come after Corona. And the clear answer for me is it's a Green New Deal because Corona has shown again very clearly where the weaknesses and the problems of the European Union are. And I really don't understand why the German government still does not understand the importance of working together in Europe. It's really frustrating that in one day they call out for European solidarity and the day after they just refuse Corona bonds to help other countries just to get money. And now they even support companies in Germany like Daimler and Volkswagen with a lot of public money. While in the same time, these companies are still paying returns to their shareholders. So what I can still see is that people really think, oh, Corona is now attacking the economic system and the poor system we have to help, we have to solve it now. But as Yan has already said, this is not the point. It is more, there's even more chance that these toxic system is imposed now and really have to take these chance. And I understand that it's really, really hard even for people like growing up in the Cold War, for example, and they just think that capitalism is the system like coming out as the better one with the crash of the Soviet Union. But we are in a new century now and this is what we have to talk about. We need like radical, pragmatic politics to actually solve the real problems of this century. And there is only one plan. And this is the Green New Deal for Europe to actually catch, to actually solve these crisis in the same time. And yeah, the big question for us is how do we convince and catch people by our Green New Deal? And I think the most important thing is that we speak or we catch them by a positive vision, which means that we have to show them how their life could be in a better way by changing things and by pushing the Green New Deal for Europe. So I think even if we all know that we now have to fight for, to accept that the capitalist system comes at its end in a way, we still have to, we have to be positive and we have to catch people by a positive narrative and showing them that we have vision for a post-capitalist Europe. And yes, politicians all over the world, they have to leave behind the fight of systems. And like if there is only bad, the bad communism and the liberal capitalism, we all know it's not like this. But I think many people still think in this way and this is why we have to catch them. We have to show them a way to get out of these endless and senseless fight, by the way. And in my opinion, the Green New Deal brings together the socialist vision of prosperity for everyone and an innovative market bringing out the most sustainable solutions. So we actually have a very good answer and the best exit strategy to get out of these crises now. And this is what we have to focus on and what I really think or what I want to do to focus on with the electoral wings anywhere. Because yeah, people actually they need to have a choice to even vote for chance. And this is why we need the electoral wings all over Europe. And this is why I'm part of the board now. I'm really happy about it. And okay, I think I pass to the next person who wants to say something. Thank you, Maike. I would like to invite the next speaker to pick up on your positive note and how we should have the message out there in a more positive manner. For me, that means what is the alternative. We know how awful it is and how awful it could become. But to paint this utopian picture that we would all like to see. So let me see the chat. Maybe Johannes, yes, Johannes, please. Yes, thank you. Johannes also member of the board of the German electoral wing, like Maike, working closely together with also the DMS from the National Collective in Germany. And it's really great to see everybody here on this call today in a trans-European call talking to each other. Yeah, capitalism is paused at the moment, like Johannes said. And Maike said that the Green New Deal for Europe should come after. And I really fully agree on that. And I'm really looking forward to work for that in the M25 to develop our organization. I think the series of calls, I enjoyed very much watching the calls with Italy and France. I'm looking forward to all the other calls to really hear from our comrades from everywhere how they see the situation and how they see us to grow and improve. And I think speaking helps a lot. We need to do that more to develop our organization and then go out there and actually bring our message to people and bring more people into our movement. I want to bring another point. Yeah, Johannes said capitalism is paused. And today, 46 years ago, as you should know, I'm speaking to you from Portugal. Today, 46 years ago, there was the Revolution in Portugal where the people threw over the governing dictatorship here. And I think it's a very good thing to remember and learn from that actually changes possible once the system is not working for the people. Of course, now in Europe, we have a really different situation. But also in Germany in 1990, you could see that peaceful revolution is a possibility if the system doesn't work for the people. And I think that's also something we have to work towards. And especially in Germany, in the situation where in the past years, the industry and the people in power that have close connection to it have been profiting a lot from the European Union, from the Euro, and now are shying away from giving something back to other regions and countries in Europe that are suffering. This is really shameful, I think, and to also all the people watching, I think we can show that there's a lot of Germans out there that think differently and that want to unite across countries, transnational, to change this. And that's what we are going to work towards. I call everybody who watches this video to help us doing so, improve, come to our organization and then change this system that we are living in that brought us into this situation that we are in today. Also with the bigger ongoing crisis, the climate crisis, the huge differences in wealth, all the things that we need to tackle, together. And yeah, I'm looking forward to do that with all of you together. Thank you. Thank you, Johannes. And I'm giving the floor to Leah, and then we should wrap up this subject and move to another pan-European need, necessity, and that's the European health system. Leah, please. Yeah, good morning, comrades. Good morning, people out there. I'm also, I'm Leah, I'm also a member of the Board of the Lecture Wing in Germany. Yeah, what is important for me? We all knew that we were in crisis of democracy even before corona, but now it is becoming more and more visible. We need more urgently than before an exit strategy against the dismantling of democracy. Autocrats in various countries are using the extensional situation to extend their power, you know. I think the most effective way of countering the dismantling of democracy is to extend the control of your normal people over the conditions of their everyday lives. For this, we need radical democratic reforms in the core areas of everyday life, especially in the workplace, I think. Why not bail out workers instead of capital? Surely the aim must be to include the workers' perspective and to make continuous participation possible. In my opinion, this takes place far too little in the debate on post-corona time in Germany. Even in Germany, around four million people live and work permanently under precarious circumstances. That is more than 12% of all employed persons, so a lot. But yeah, better pay and better working conditions are not enough to advance the cause of economic democracy. I think the DM-25 should work to ensure that workers have a voice at the office, company, and industry levels. From the perspective of the lecture wing, I believe that a key task is to reach these people in the reality of their lives and offer them an opportunity to partake in the political process. For this, we need a strategy to move from talking to action, right? I think this is not an easy task. Many of these people don't trust in political decision makers or have no capacities or speak other languages, etc., etc. I think about enabling participation, participation, for example, through using a user-friendly app, for example, or surveys, or doing election campaign in different languages, even in Germany, why not? Or maybe invite workers to DMTV as well to give them a voice. So yeah, this is just brainstorm. Maybe I think it makes sense to set up a taskpost for this topic within the lecture wing because this is so important. So yeah, just let me know if you have any thoughts on this. Thank you, Lea. Srećko, please. Just quickly, because I'm like living in the zooms, as all of you know, and since Lea mentioned DMTV, I think it would be good. Let's try to be concrete already and also tactical, you know, what are the next steps we can do all together. I think one of the next steps could definitely be to explore the chances of setting up DMTV in Germany. Maybe it exists already, but I don't know. I know that the Italians already started it, you know, when it is then in their language. So we could all together think of some format like that, so it would be in German. That's just my small proposal regarding that, what you said. A general remark from me, as you know, both me and Yanis have been in Germany last year, running for the European elections. Since then, I must admit, me myself personally was not so much involved in German issues. Now I'm in Austria for some reason. I mean, the reason is coronavirus, but I think we still have to, if it's not too late, capitalize the 100,000 plus votes from the European elections. I think there are still people around who are inspired by the N25. I don't think that the electoral wing is the only direction we should take. Definitely not. But I would love to hear from you also about the current situation in Germany, you know, what politically and what you think should be the first step. So to be very concrete, I mean, Ivana is moderating this, we will speak about the health situation now, but just think about the concrete steps. Like you just said, DMTV, we could do that, or you could tell us what are the other next concrete steps we could take in Germany. And I think it's necessarily really to have a short term plan, but also to have a long term plan, as Yanis said, to prepare for the for the bores. I stop. Absolutely. And as this European tour beyond the balcony is an excellent opportunity to bring our message to wider audience, and of course, DMRs, but not only DMRs. That's DMTV as well. And DMTV goes local. So there is a serial coming from Germany, New Deal from Germany. And one of the first guests is of course, going to be Thomas. And I have a special, I would say privilege to welcome you today and to thank you and your colleagues who are health workers and fighting the virus every day on the ground. Thomas, please. Let's just not applaud to Thomas. I hate the applauding, but Thomas is one of my heroes. Thomas, I'll unmute you. Hello comrades from Berlin. Just to introduce myself, I'm a co-founder of the Berlin DC from May 2016. And I'm a member of the Board of Demokratie in Europa, the electoral wing of GM25 in Germany. So I want to tell you some lessons from the Corona pandemic so far. Because I'm a physician of internal medicine and work on the frontline since mid of March and doing an infection consultation from Monday to Friday. We're still in the early beginnings of this pandemic. As for Berlin, we have 5,500 cases in a population of 3 million. So it's down to 0.2%. We are in a good run in Berlin because we still just have 113 deaths in Berlin. But this is still the early beginning of this pandemic. And this we have to keep in mind. We used the hammer, and now we have to write the waves. So what is the, there are three points I want to make regarding the lessons from the Corona pandemic. Viruses don't know any borders, especially no national borders. These are spread of the virus from China, the fire in Austria, throughout Europe. It is just ridiculous to close national barriers. This to quote Alexander von Humboldt, he said, all the same, everything is linked to everything. So what we need are precise regional regarding the endemic of this virus and timed responses, especially in an international state of emergency, the pandemic. We have to think global and act local. We need free international flow of information. And that's why we have to empower the World Health Organization. And as an authority, and when we speak of authorities, I want to mention Hannah Avent, who said, this is the art of politics. So this is the kind we act with this response. On the other side, as in the Republic, we need check and balances between scientists and the administration. We don't need no leaders. A second point, we need complete health insurance coverage for Germany. This is a result of class war achieved by the Social Democratic Party in the end of the 19th century. But we need it everywhere around the world. Look at the NHS in the UK or the more disastrous situation in the US. It is clear that health care and especially hospitals have to be remunicipalized. This is one of my key points. Social inequality is directly linked to morbidity, the chance to get ill and the mortality, the chance to die of this disease. Look at the Hispanics or Black Americans. With regard to the treatment and especially development of a vaccine, let's look at the pharmacy industry. Still, the search is publicity promoted and the profits. To quote Jonas Salk, who developed a vaccine against poliomyelitis, and he was asked who owns the patent on the vaccine, he said, well, the people. I would say there is no patent. Could you patent the sun? So health is no commodity, but a human right. And we have this is a quote from the Declaration of Human Rights paragraph 45. The treatment of a pandemic is not only a vaccination drug intensive care, but has to be embedded in a social security environment. And to quote the definition of the World Health Organization, health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease. Health care is a fundamental right of every human being. So the third point, the corona pandemic is just the blueprint of the climate crisis, which we have to keep in mind. So my life's quote comes from Virgil, my great hero in medicine. He said, medicine is a social science and politics are medicine on the broadest scale. And that's the reason why I joined DM 25 in 2016. Thank you. Thank you very much, Thomas. And thank you for these so logical definitions of what health should be. And it's indeed not merely an absence of disease. Juliana? Yes. Hello. I hope my internet is holding on. My name is Juliana. And I'm also from the electoral wing board. And pretty much many things have already been said. But I think when it comes to strategy, I see that in kind of three layers, which is, you know, education, mobilization and the solutions, which if we if we think about a positive narrative, that applies to people who are already at the point where they say, okay, what's next? We won't change. So what's next? But there are so many people who are right now also messed up from all the information coming to them and all the conspiracies and all the disinformation. Not everyone has the opportunity to have Thomas once a week in the zoom and can talk to him about corona and ask him questions. But so many people have to rely on their own research on and and that's really confusing these days. So I think as a movement and also as an electoral wing, but more so as a movement, we have the opportunity to educate people on certain things, which for me basically the main thing is that in our system, the profits are privatized and the losses are socialized. And that's the key point. And that's happening in every crisis again and again and again. Every time someone needs to get bailed out, it's not people, it's banks, it's companies. And every time they need money, they take it from us. And that's what everyone needs to understand. And this is where I really start to draw the line between do you want a world where you pay for the private sector in this so-called free market that we have? Or do you want to live in a world where as Thomas said right now, we have a common sense of what everyone needs like healthcare and minimum wage in their jobs and all of these things. But these are then the solutions where the electoral wing comes for me into place, which is not sad that it has to be everywhere. I mean, everywhere someone wants to cooperate with us and says, we want the solution you have brought to us with a green new deal. I say, yeah, let's cooperate. But whenever we don't have any corporation partners who want to change the system, I think there is no no alternative for us as a movement than to have the electoral wing prepared to say, okay, we can go and help in regional areas with elections, for example, Germany and or also national scale. But the national scale is not so interesting for us in the sense of national politics. It is, I think for me, it is really about pushing the change and pushing the solutions that we already have worked on for so long. Thank you, Juliana, I couldn't agree more. I saw that Jan has a stack and then CeCe and then we could maybe go back to Juliana and say something more about electoral wings place in all of this, what we're talking about, Jan. I can go first, but David's stack before me. Okay, sorry, I've missed it. Thanks, Jan. Yeah, I just wanted to use the occasion that Thomas was mentioning kind of open source and data donations. This is something that I feel interested in because it's part of our technology sovereignty paper. And let me shine a light on something that happened in Germany two weeks ago. That our Robert Koch Institute was asking for a data donation, would they need data from various citizens to measure the fever in different areas of Germany and they ask for data donation. This is a public institution. They were funded by German government and then they are developing an app with a company called Thrive, which is a life science company, a small one which is a daughter from a big corporation, I'm sure. And this app is more or less their property now. I don't know it for sure because I asked the developer if it's something that everyone can use in the medical community. We lost you. I think yes, yeah, he's frozen. The internet probably is bad. So maybe he's back. David, you're back. We lost you for a minute. Always when I say something important, I'm freezed. Censorship, censorship. As soon as you mentioned the corporations. So let me again say that we should fight for public money, public code, because it can't be that the public institutions fund an app like this that could help the whole medical community in all the world. And then it's private property of one institution or one corporation in Germany. That's it. Yes, thank you, David Cici. Okay, hello from me. Well, I mean, this is a question addressed to Thomas. It's more rhetorical than real question. You said, Thomas, something that I also agree very much with that the virus doesn't expect borders or social classes and all that. And my, well, I mean, my question to you and to all of us exposed is whether this gives office space for a radical political intervention on the part of DM left wing people and progressive people across Europe to to fracture or hit or start constructing the whole neoliberal ideology that has become dominant since the beginning, well, the middle of the 80s, starting with the UK and the USA, as we all know, that privatizes basically the private area, privatization, individuals and everything. This is an important question, I think. And of course, it calls for concrete movements and actions, but all the ideological, let's say, level or structure, which is still dominated by all this sort of ideology of consumerism and individualism, whether it offers us the unique opportunity to intervene and criticize and reconstruct it in the eyes of the people. I'm saying this because, I mean, for me personally, and I think for the virus crisis gives the unique opportunity for the introduction of the ideology of commonality and common goods, free public goods and whatever just before the ultra right wing, I'm saying, and it's still said, whatever policy might come out of the crisis. Thank you. I hope I was clear. Thank you, Sisi. You were clear, but your sound was a bit unclear. Now we are moving to Corbinion. Or, Thomas, you want to answer directly to Sisi? Yes, Sisi, you're completely right. And I think this example of healthcare is a very fundamental thing. You can talk to every passenger on the streets in the consultations with also normal persons. Everybody sees the consequences of the past developments. And a lot of people, especially in Berlin, they think back to the 70s when this part of finalization of the healthcare system started. And on Monday, we have this German local TV, and we speak about housing and rents. And this is very, very similar. There's the same consequences, municipalization. This is a consequence, not expropriation, but bringing it back to a kind of corporate property and regulated democratically. This is the point. These are concrete aspects of philosophical thought. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Thomas, again. And now we are moving to Corbinion. Thank you. Thank you, Ivana. Thank you all for being here. I think it's really important to have these calls. I'm Corbinion. I'm a member of the NC and the Electrical Wing. And I also live in Berlin, although this is a much more recent development compared to Thomas. But I would like to build on something he said. This idea of both transnational in a crisis like a coronavirus that is global but affects people locally, it's very important to have this transnational level combined with the very local, hyper-local level. And I think this is a very powerful, this idea of combining our vision of a transnational republic and or federation, whatever, and decision-making and democratizing that, combining that with a shift of power to the local level. For instance, electorally, this would be what we call radical municipalism, which you already had in our European Spring program would be a very strong companion for various reasons. One reason I think is that it helps make a utopian vision, which has post-capitalism and transnational democracy, firstly less scary and more concrete at the same time. Less scary because it gets rid of the old association of socialism and centralized power and more concrete because you can try out things, you can apply already policies like parts of the Green New Deal on a local level and show that they work. So this would be more on the electoral wing side of things. I think that would be very powerful as an electoral wing. We sort of focus at least partly on this aspect of creating a network of radical municipalist, a European network that's radically municipalist. On the other hand, on the movement side, I think this could be a very nice symbiosis because on the level underneath, even more local than the municipal level. There are lots of, for instance, in my neighborhood in Berlin, there are lots of initiatives about rent and now in the coronavirus crisis groups of mutual aid and these times where you help your neighbors. If we manage to somehow internationalize some of these projects, these desperately centralized projects and also fights, we can combine either something like what Yanis mentioned in the French call, something like a consumer strike in support of a local workers fight, but as well, things like platform cooperatives that we could help. And I think because fundamentally I think that if we want another world, another system, then it needs to be built up from the bottom. We can help at municipal levels or if we get into power in some places, but at the end of the day it has to be built up from the bottom. And this would also be, I think, a good, this ties into this idea of DM 2.0, if the European Union as a project fails, then there would be a way to, that might be like a kind of a backup to already have a network that's decentralized on a municipal level. Yes, thank you. And exactly what you're saying is something that we are all trying to do and we are still trying and that's something that is summarized in, think globally, act locally and what we do need and what we see now that these local initiatives among neighbors, among, there are older people not able to go to the supermarkets and so on and there are people from the same house, from the building, organize, the self-organized to help those in need. And if everybody makes these kind of small communities, I believe it can spread faster than corona. Jan, please. Thank you, Ivana. I'm Jan from the German National Collective and when I was watching the zoom last week with our Italian comrades and I think the number that was floating around was that the acceptance of the European Union in Italy is at the moment at an historic low. I think the number was 27%, maybe even lower. And I was quite dismayed by this very fact. I think this is really, really, really dangerous and it could, Italy could be like the domino stone that would first fall and then the European Union would completely break apart. And I was thinking to myself, what can we do? What can we do to help our Italian comrades, especially also within the here in Germany? And when I look at the political landscape and that goes for all the politicians that are in power at the moment, I think, they're mainly only reacting to public opinion. So they are not really trying to advocate for an alternative vision for Europe. And I think this is desperately needed at the moment. And when I look at this analysis and if it's correct, I think that what we as DM should mainly do is get organized, organized and organized in order to get strong, like for example, XR or Fridays for future, they have achieved this already. They are in a position where they can at least change the discourse in Germany. They haven't achieved any kind of policy changes yet, but they at least this is not the small feat. I think that they have this power to be in the discourse. And this is something that we as DM should also do because then because German public opinion is so important for the European project, unfortunately, if we can change it, then at least this would help other countries and they could go out and say, hey, look, there is this progressive force in Germany. And it is it's not going towards people are listening to it. Basically, that's what I'm saying. And in order to organize ourselves better, we are in Germany working at the moment, for example, we have set up a task force for our own DSCs. And we are thinking about establishing a kind of council system and changing our own rules of operation that we have given ourselves in our national collective in order to incorporate this council system and also to be better able to distribute some of the tasks that we as the NC face towards other helping hands. And I really do hope that in the future, this will help us get better organized and get more membership. Thanks. Thank you, Jan. We all definitely need to transform our policies and conversations and debates into actions. So mobilizing and organizing on the ground is, of course, our biggest task. If there is no one else, I don't see any stocks, I will go to Julianna now. Julianna's been very active in setting up the electoral wing in Germany. And we will like to hear from her how is that going and where is the place of German electoral wing in in Europe? Well, thank you. Okay, how is that going? It's been two years now that we have the electoral wing and we participated in the European election, as everyone knows. So I think since then, of course, because of focus on other things in DN, there was a kind of little pause within the electoral wing to have the transition of the member vote. Now we are on our track to found the party as elected from the members. And well, we are on our way to make that legally happen. But due to the corona crisis, we have a bit to now research and think about how we can stay in our timeframe and our plan that we wanted to found the party at the end of the summer or in the fall. But because we need an assembly, probably, and that's due to corona impossible, we need to figure out now how that will happen. So as much for the organizing part of where the electoral wing stands. So and as for what we are going to do with the electoral wing in Germany, we are right now in basically in that discussion, how to connect to the DMS in Germany. I mean, how to connect to maybe members who want to help out within the DSEs, but also the possibility of creating, for example, which has to be done anyways, because of party structure, legal party structure in Germany. So if we were going to participate in local elections, for example, we will need local groups anyway. So that's the biggest task, I think, is how to position the electoral wing in also within the movement in Germany. And which task it gets like, yeah, which task it will take from DM in Germany, for example, as some other form of movement work, let's say that way. So we have, we're now in the developing phase, I cannot really say too much details or concrete actions that are happening right now. But I think that this is a very interesting phase. And it's happening during Corona. And I think that gives us strength, because it takes, it takes a bit the speed of the task because you cannot do certain things you would have done now. But it leaves open a totally new time frame for for really thinking about how we want to do it and how we want to make it possible so that everyone feels comfortable also with the electoral wing. And also, we are trying to building structures, organizing structures with the other electoral wings for information exchange, for example, in networking, because one of the primary primal things we want to do is also have the opportunity to say, we are in Germany an electoral wing. That's true. But we are in fact an European party. And we represent not only us, but we represent every electoral wing and also the movement, of course. And I think this is our main task to how we can find the narrative to represent that. So people know this is not a national party. We know this is the electoral wing of DM, but this is a European party. And this is primarily our biggest task right now, to find this narrative. Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Juliana, for for putting it like that. And just to highlight again the importance of activation and actions and how to put everything that we are saying here and our previous debates and what we wrote in our policies. But what can we do tomorrow? So Corbinion, I hope that you will take us there. How can we do this? Yeah, sort of. I mean, I think one aspect, if we are founding a party, what we have to look at is what parties already exist and will exist by the time we exist. And we really have to think about, so before the Corona crisis, there was a very, and there still is a huge momentum by the climate movement in Germany. And the Greens, which at first got a lot of support by that, don't really represent, I think, what most people in the climate movement, the analysis that most people in the climate movement have, which is much more say, call it holistic, that there is, you know, you have to see ecological problems in their social context with these social inequalities and the issues of not enough democracy. So I think that would be definitely part of our, so to speak, target audience. I hate the corporate parlance, but there are also a lot of parties that are getting founded in that domain, right? There are many, there's a lot happening if you hear chatter, you know, that sort of party getting founded. So I think what we also have to think about is how can we cooperate with like-minded parties and or how do we distinguish ourselves from them in case we don't cooperate? And again, I think that this radical municipalism thing could be very useful in that case, but that can only be part of the answer. Thank you. Of course, going electoral is one way, but there are so many other ways to be active locally. I would like, if we could move, because now we are in the second hour, if we could shift the conversations more towards the activation part, how to part. So just let me check if the pluses in the chat are also stocks or I have stock from Vincent. Vincent, please go ahead. Just another sentence, because you are very involved with Green New Deal, and this is a good example of a campaign. And maybe you could tell us also what are the plans for the campaign besides the Green New Deal TV coming up. Yeah, sure. And thanks for talking about it. We will have a German language Green New Deal webinar at our German Game25 YouTube channel on Monday at 8 p.m. Unfortunately, coinciding, I think, with another DMTV, but we have to decide what to watch then. And let me just express, yes, I agree with pretty much what Ian said. And then also to expand a bit on what Rihanna said. I think it's important, yes, to view the editorial rings, not just separate from our movement, or to have sort of a two-way approach. Now, there's one approach. It's called the DM25, MSM movement, an editorial movement, a part of a movement, just as is everyone in every group in the DM25, which is not an editorial ring. So I think it's very important to also use when we talk publicly about our movement to stress that electoral rings are part of the movement and also not just means in itself, but to further the goals of the movement. And then also, and I can talk about the Green New Campaign very shortly, I was previously talking about messaging and that we still can improve in that area as a movement, I think, in a way that also applies to our electoral rings. Think about it right now. The name of our electoral ring is democracy in Europe. So what might the average water think when he hears that name? All right, okay, that name is democracy in Europe. So supposedly the main thing is democracy in Europe, right? I think we're risking to be perceived in the public eye as a single issue party. And if we like to broaden our program, not just in writing, because we have a very, very broad program, but also in the public eye and in the public perception, when I think in useful, I think we can circumvent a name change. And that's just my personal opinion, but what would be better when calling our electoral ring the European Democratic Party, right? So we have both these ideals of the 25 and in the name. So the term democracy, or that would be obvious in 25 was founded on the basis of democracy. This is our main goal, the democratic union, but also Europeanism, not in not as a kind of new nationalism, but Europeanism as the geographical manifestation of internationalism on the European continent. So yeah, that's pretty much it. Europeanism, not nationalism, democracy, not oligarchy, and of course, Dn25, not the establishment. And I don't know about you, but hell yeah, I would vote for that. So very shortly, regarding our Green Deal for Europe campaign, we have to, I think, still further integrate this in the electoral ring approach and in the party campaigning. And I think whenever we do election campaigns in the future for election, next European election for instance, we have to further stress this issue, but not also Green Deal for Europe, but I think also the democracy aspect and it's very important and a bunch of other issues. As I said earlier, we have a very, very broad program and we should use all of what is in our program and what is our disposal of our policies in order to be more attractive to the German electorate. And I think if we do that, when we have a very good shot at becoming more popular and more known between the German political sphere. Yes, thank you, Vincent. Now I have stocks from Jan and Eric, but is there Maike or Sisi, Juliana, would you like to add something, Lea? Well, I just could add when we were talking about the electoral wings now. I personally hope that with the electoral wing, we have like a second chance to catch people for the DM content. And this is the genius point about the strategy that we have, like the double strategy of being a movement and having electoral wings. Because we have actually like one goal, but two missions or let's say two ways how we can catch people to, yeah, and how do we catch people? I already said that I think very important is the positive narrative and the framing, the positive framing about, because we actually want people to believe in democracy and in change. So we have to empower them to fight for these change. I think empowerment should really be the most important thing for both for movement and electoral wing. And we have the possibility to offer two different ways or different ways to bring yourself in for people all over Europe. Yeah, I think it's a finish. Yeah, now we have Jan. Thanks, Yvana. I just wanted to make one quick point about this distinction between the electoral wing and the movement, DM 25. So in a lot of our local chapters, we had quite strong relationships to groups like Extinction Rebellion, but also Fridays for Future. And some, for example, in Hamburg, we had a big event coming up and they already booked a place for the event, but then there were some issues when the place basically heard that we had this all-member vote and we were forming a true and actual party now in Germany. Then a lot of these movements and institutions, they are kind of dismayed by us because they perceive also DM 25 as a party. Now, I'm not against having an electoral wing. I think this is a good way to go in all of Europe to have a European and actual European party. But we need to really think about how we can have these relations on the ground from for our local chapters to other movements when they always look at us as just another party. So we need to really talk about how we can communicate that we are not only another party, that we are also a movement. And I think this is quite difficult. But in Frankfurt, for example, we managed to do that. And props go to Vincent for his explanation. I think he talked to half an hour to the organizers of the blockade of the Frankfurt International Motor Show, where we as DM 25 officially participated and it was really a nice, really, really cool event. And a lot of us were there actually that are on the Zoom here right now. And yeah, but I just want to really need to think about how we can communicate this locally. I won't take too much time. I have my own answer for that. At least what I'm trying on my DSC comrades here is to explain that any DM party is not just another political party. It's not so much about having the movement part of the DM. It's about how we do politics and we don't do politics as usual. Having said that, Eric. Thanks, Yvonne. I mean, you actually said quite a bit of what I wanted to say and far more eloquently than I could. So I'm not going to repeat it. I really like the energy coming from Micah and from Vincent about the fact that we have something to offer in Europe and that we have something that nobody else is saying. And I find that often in DM, because of our culture, we're an inclusive culture. We want to unite the left. We want to unite progressives in general. We want to be supportive of the common cause and so on. And we do live at the time when the left is really rediscovering itself and hence is fairly fragmented and progressives in general. And as a result of that, sometimes we have a self-confidence issue. We don't want to take up too much space. We're worried about what others think of us. We're worried about how we come across what the image is. And sometimes we need a bit of a dose of self-confidence. We need self-confidence in our own message. We need self-confidence in what we have to say in the brilliant, innovative agenda that we've developed together as DMers, as Europeans, and go out boldly with this. And sometimes you don't need more strategy than really, really good ideas. And if you go out there with confidence, being confident in who we are, in what we have to offer, in the fact that we are saying things that other people are not. If they're saying them, we might as well close down DM and let them do it. There's no point replicating it. But if we're doing something that nobody else is, then we should do that confidently. And we should go out there with that message and use that as our flag and have other people also come to us around, rally around that message, not because we are trying to subvert or co-opt or take over, but because we're saying something that is useful and that Europe needs to hear. And by rallying more and more people around that message, we strengthen DM, of course, but we also strengthen DM's contribution to this common progressive cause, because as long as we keep DM down on the down low, only use it in order to support others and so on, we're not that useful to the progressive fight in Europe. We're always going to play second, third fiddle in that struggle. So the more we strengthen ourselves, the more we can strengthen our comrades around Europe. So I think we need to take that with a bit more confidence sometimes and find ways to just project that outwards and have people also come to us rather than always going to us. Yes, we should be that light that draws other butterflies to us. Juliana, please. Yes, couldn't express it better with the light. That's true. And I totally agree. I think I don't like this narrative like we are trying to selling a product and we need good marketing for it, because I don't feel it that way that it's a product. It is actually about real people. It's not all all we do is not about us getting empowered and getting in politics and doing all this game. I think most people I know they would rather do something really different with their time in their life. So do I. But I think it's urgent that we're here. And this is the reason why we're here is because people are suffering. It's not about we want a better future or just a new industry. It's about so many countries that have no chance of getting up to their feet. And I think especially from a German perspective we have a responsibility to push for change, because if we don't push for change here, as the common people, others don't stand a chance in Europe. And this is my true belief. It's not that I'm giving Germany this credit of power, but it certainly has some certain, you know, power with this politics in, for example, Europe and stopping progress wherever they can. And so at some point, I think you can say it's the politicians, but when it comes to Germany, I think at some point it has to be the society that stands up and it realizes that they don't spend their money on humans, that they spend their money on banks and corporations, when the politicians sell to them that, you know what, we cannot afford to help other countries because we have no money. We cannot support our artists in this crisis. We cannot support anyone in this crisis, obviously. And this is much more than four million people. This is much more than that. It's overall a catastrophic situation. And this is the narrative. And I think we don't have to market, we don't have to do marketing around that. We have to really say this is the time for change or there is no future. Absolutely, Juliana. Well said. Now we have Johannes, I believe. And then again, after that, if we don't have other stocks, I would also like to go back to Yanis to have a bit of a perspective of everything that we've heard and what are the action points. So, Johannes, please. Yes, building on what Juliana said and also on action points. As Juliana also mentioned earlier, we are building this transnational, the German part of the transnational party in Germany. And I think it's a very exciting task. It's also a huge task to build a solid structure on a solid foundation on that we can then do our party work. And I think we have a big chance in Germany to attract people because I've been recently looking at the numbers of members of the different parties, the established parties in Germany over the last 30 years, and it has been constantly going down. The parties in government, they have an average membership age of, I think it is like nearly 60. So the members of the established parties are really old. And people in Germany have been less organized in parties over the years, which is a bad side for the democratic system, also the national one. So we have, I think, a big change to bring young new people into the system with that mission that we have to build not just another national party, but a European party, a party that is part of a movement where also people that are not interested in party politics can join and do different work. I think that's very exciting. And also due to the economic developments of the recent years, with the Eurozone, with the EU actually, sadly, and also the financial crisis leading to a brain drain of the periphery and lots of migrants coming to Germany and to the central European industrial areas. And for just the simple choice they have to search for work and search for an income and search for a living, I think also these people are really not represented by the current party system in Germany. And we call everybody to work with us to build this party up and bring these people into the system. And I think we have a huge task ahead, but it's also very exciting. And I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, Johannes. So now we have a couple of topics that you also wanted to talk about, but maybe we should make a cut now and hear from Janis. Well, thank you, Ivana. This is fascinating. It's a very good discussion. We should have had it some time ago. A few comments and then two suggestions. First, Vincent on the marketing of the DM3.Plan. I agree with you on the question of the Green New Deal. Maybe you should have just said the recovery program for the post-coronavirus is the Green New Deal. Completely agreed. On the question of Eurobonds, the way I have been framing it for years is that we have Eurobonds. The European investment bank bonds are Eurobonds in the sense that debt issued on behalf of Europe. The EFSF, that horrible toxic thing, created Eurobonds. It's just that they are like CDOs of Lehman Brothers. They are awful Eurobonds. So the EIB bonds are good Eurobonds, but they are very few. The problem with the EIB bonds is that they are Eurobonds, but they're not in sufficient quantities to do the job of the debt conversion that we need. Then the ones we've created, like the ESM bonds or the EFSF bonds, are Eurobonds, but they are toxic CDO-like ones. The ECB is the only one that can issue a therapeutic Eurobond, a Eurobond that actually works for Europe. And from that moment on, we can call them ECB bonds. I agree with you. So it's a question, we don't disagree. It's a question of marketing, of propaganda. Mike, let me say this. We must not say what you said. You said, I'm sorry, I mean, you see that we agree, we don't disagree. But we should never say, ask the question, the rhetorical question. I don't understand why the German government is not doing this, since it will benefit the German people. We do understand why they're not doing it, because they don't give a damn about the German people. They only care about the oligarchy. So we must, you see, this is, I said this in parliament yesterday here, I turned to the finance minister and I said, look, when you're calling for a Eurobond from the German government, right? And you say, like we say, because now the great government, the right wing government has adopted this mantra, even though they were against it a few months, years ago, that the Eurobond would be good for Germany as well, right? Now, at that point, what you're saying to Olaf Scholz and Angela Merkel is that either you're stupid and you don't realize it, that it's good for you, or you're not working for the German people. I never believed that Merkel and Scholz and these people are stupid. So you can't, yeah, if you are asking for a Eurobond, because it's good for the Germans as well as for the Greeks, you've got to look at them in the eye and say, you don't care about the interests of the majority of the Germans. Don't say, I don't understand why you're not doing it. No, we exist because we understand. If we didn't understand, we'd be just like everybody else, oh, why are they not doing that, which is good for everyone. The answer is, they are class interests. Okay. Now, one last thing. It's interesting to look at the political landscape, the party political landscape in Germany at the moment, right? So the coronavirus, to some extent, at least looking at the opinion polls. So the SPD has gone a little bit up, Merkel has gone up, because people during times of crisis, they tend to revert to regress back to what they know. But what is fascinating for me is that no one talks about Europe, none of them. Even the SPD, even the Greens, they're not talking about Europe in Germany. I don't know, maybe I got it wrong, you know better than me what they talk about, but from what I read in translation mostly, Merkel gives this huge speech recently. Europe is not there. Only at the end, the community of like-minded people, whatever, spirit of solidarity. That's it. The SPD doesn't talk about Europe. It is not participating in this discussion that we're having about Euro bonds, about European Marshall Plan, or Green New Deal. There's none of that. They are criticizing the government for not doing this or that within Germany. The Greens, on the other hand, look, from my involvement with the German Greens, I have to tell you, in particular, because the Greens are not the same. They appear as united, the French and the Germans, the Portuguese and so on, but they're not really. They really hate each other. If you talk to them, if you talk to the Belgian Greens, they say the worst thing about the French Greens and even worst things about the German Greens. But what is interesting and fascinating is the German Greens. I got to understand them a little bit better last year when Sergeko and I run in Germany because I had these discussions with some of them and debates, television here and there. They are appalling. They are not green. They are brown. They should be called the brown party. I had Sven, what's his name, giggled, saying to me that he actually said to me that, look, there's no need for green investment because, for more green investment, because the problem we have is the bureaucracy and not enough. I mean, there is funding there, which is not being used for green purposes for the Green What? That is a Christian democratic argument. That's the Merkel argument. So the reason why the Fridays for Future kids and so on, they don't resonate with the green parties because the green party has stopped being green. They are, you know, they're looking now at government and they think, yeah, we want it. We want the trappings of government. So, you know, they are ready to go into coalition with, I mean, they just love the idea of this. They've already sold out on almost everything. And when it comes to a European solution, I can assure you, the moment they're in government, they will behave like all of Schultz in the Eurogroup. There's no doubt about that, which means that Diem, Germany and Demokratie in Europe and so on, the left party, the Linke, what is there to say about them? They seem to exist long time ago. I mean, they're just, they're a little bureaucracy, just maintaining their positions. And, you know, they hate each other. They have such huge disagreements, but they stick together because they have an office, a car, a salary. I'm sorry, but I had dealings with even the good people, the good people, the people who are close to Diem in Die Linke. And I can assure you that these people are really far more interested in maintaining the bureaucracy of Die Linke than in changing the world or changing Germany for that matter, a bit like Syriza or the Communist Party here in Greece. So, Diem 25 in Germany and Demokratie in Europe is more necessary than ever. At the same time, we are absent. I mean, we do things and you do stuff, but we are not relevant. We're not significant yet. Not to, I mean, if you compare to how necessary we are and how important our Green New Deal is, right, our impact is zero in relation to the need for impact. So, there's a huge vacuum, we can feel it, we're not feeling it. So, I said I will finish with two suggestions. And here they are and I'm going to be very, very succinct. Collective action. Actions that are not just us joining another demonstration and with another 10 movements, but things that we initiate, that others can join in. And I think that these actions must be Diem actions in the sense that, what I'm saying by Diem, not in terms of the imprint, not in terms of copyright, but in terms of the philosophy. Okay, so there are many local actions like the Frankfurt Motor Show and so on. We should continue to participate in these, but a Diem action for me would be to identify, let's say, some strike in the warehouse in Hannover of Amazon.de, Amazon-Deutschland, okay. And then plan a pan-European customer strike in support of that particular warehouse workforce. And to say, you know, let's organize across Europe, as Diem, a day of not purchasing from Amazon. Yeah, Monday next week, nobody purchases just for one day, anything from Amazon in support of the warehouse in Hannover. That is something that can catch on. That others will say, okay, fine. I mean, look, let's support that. And then that is the way of, that's, you see what I mean by a Diem action. It's pan-European and it is local. It concerns particular workers and brings together Europeans to support them in a way which is really easy, because we cannot mobilize, we cannot bring a million people out of the street. But we can have some millions in Europe that day, not purchasing anything from Amazon. And, you know, and that can catch on. And then we attack another company, you know, on green issues, you know, so a day of something about Volkswagen, let's say, we see. But I've, and that's something for you to plan. You are, you know, the people on the ground in Germany, you identify the strike or action which we can, at a pan-European level, make big. That's concrete action number one. Concrete action number two. I think you should select the day in April next year and advertise it from now and work from now towards that date to have an assembly somewhere in Germany, right, to come together and talk about Diem strategy at every level, at the Green New Deal, at the level of organizing, collective action at the pan-European level and electoral wing. You know, what do we want to do? And invite people to start thinking about it from now, you know, what are we going to do? Are we going to run on our own, forge a coalition like we did with Diem last year, not run, whatever, you know, make this, but make this a focal point. Have a date today about April next year, hopefully the corona thing will have gone by then. And then we can all come together, right, all the DMS in Germany and some of us from outside can come to a place you choose and discuss our electoral strategy, our plan, our Green New Deal there. Because you see, if you have it, it concentrates the minds, you can work, it's always good to have a deadline for organizing and planning. So that's my proposal. Thank you, Yanis. And if we could keep up this proposal manner of what actions could we do? I believe that David has something action oriented as well. But I saw Srećko, so I will give the floor to Srećko and then to David. Yeah, just one sentence on what I think is also important, especially in Germany. It is not to forget, well, we don't call it solidarity, but not to forget the divide between the center and the periphery of the European Union. So as someone from Croatia, I think it is very important that in Germany all these questions of seasonal workers, you know, it's more than 300,000. And all these people from the periphery who are now being organized by special charter flights or special charter trains and so on, that we should definitely address this question. And if there is one movement in Germany who can address this, then it's us because we have so many members from many of these countries, from Romania, Serbia, the Gaster biter and so on. So I just wanted to flag that I think this is a very important issue and maybe something we could organize on. Couldn't agree more. David, please. Yeah, thank you. I hope now I will be able to talk without censorship, like always. I wanted to talk about the topic. I want to ask you a question because Janice said that capitalism is on pause right now, that is at least not true for one actor on the capitalist portfolio that is platform companies. They are constantly dating right now, for instance, Amazon that you mentioned. And I want to ask you one question. Why do you think are those companies like Amazon, Amazon Web Services, Facebook and Google, why are they so successful? In my opinion, one of the reasons is because it's nerd stuff. It's really boring. Nobody really wants to talk about it and people immediately stop listening when I talk about technological sovereignty. But it is really important because those people rule the world and they have a collective mindset and they are class in itself. They are nerds and they operate behind shallow surfaces that enchant every one of us and then they do their jobs and we don't even notice it and then it happens. And to bring you one lively example of what happened in Berlin, we had like two or three big players when it came to home delivery food and that was Fudora, Liferando and Deliveroo. And now they have consolidated because those things tend to be a winner takes at all marketplace, the worst of all monopolies. And when Deliveroo left the city, a small initiative of Neukölln was founded that was called Kohli Ma Doss, I don't know or two, I don't know why. And it was just some riders that founded a cooperative to share the democratic institution in the company, to share the money amongst each other and operate without a global structure. They failed in the first place because there was a lot of different debates in the company. But then they got help, for instance, from a company or an NGO of France that is named Copscycle that built a webshop for them. And now they are able to do their businesses better than before when they did it through Telegram and WhatsApp. So when we call in the technological surrender paper for open source and public money, public code, it is indeed to help those little companies thrive and to prevent that they will not take it all marketplace in this regard of platform capitalism. What we need is platform cooperatives like companies that are cooperatives and that have access to, for instance, open source legal frameworks, open source app building so that they don't have these obstacles to build their businesses, their corporate businesses. And what we need, of course, is funding for them on a municipal level. We have a lot of funding for startups in Berlin, but it always goes to the Samba Brüder, which has two really, really rich brothers that always found new startups under a different name. So they look like individual companies and they always get beneficial funding. And when one of them succeeds, it goes back to the Samba Enterprise. So we have to raise attention to what is happening there. And we have to find a way that don't know really how to do it, how to make this not stuff interesting because this not stuff is going to rule the world and we will look after it and say, what the fuck has happened here? Yes. So Yanis, would you like to answer that? How do we get Star Trek instead of Matrix? Very briefly. Look, I agree with everything you said. Regarding your question, why are they so powerful? It's not so much that they're boring. It's that they've gone beyond cartels. Cartels have always managed through monopoly power to corner a market. What the platforms do is far more significant. What they do is they create a market which they then own. So Facebook is not a monopoly. It is a separate universe. Once you enter Facebook, you are not even in capitalism. You are in a separate world, digital world. There is a community there. There is information that is being produced. There are products that are being sold. And all of it is owned by Facebook. That has never happened before. It's like, think about it, when the cartels created the monopoly of oil in 1910 in the United States, there was a market for oil and they monopolized the market. They didn't own the market. So Facebook creates not only the product, but also the Agora, the whole framework of people getting in there. So it's impossible to get out of Facebook because even if you and I, with all the funding in the world, create a much better Facebook, who's going to enter? Because it will be empty. So what gives Facebook its capital, its value, is the fact that there are all these people in there already. And if you will never be able to break this, unless we change the property rights over Facebook, Facebook needs to be taken over. It needs to be not nationalized, internationalized. But that requires a global revolution, guys. So let's be honest here. We can develop open source alternatives and so on and so forth. But you know, DM will always be in Facebook because all the people are there in Facebook. So we need to be in Facebook in order to save them from Zuckerberg and from that mentality. So yeah, I mean, you know, to go to Star Trek, we need a major revolution. I like that. So Maike, please tell us how you get to this major revolution. I like that too. And I agree with you said, Janne, especially about the point how needed the DM content in our electoral wing is in Germany. Because like you said, I mean, the Green Party in Germany, they still think that they can fix capitalism by just make it transform it in a green way or something. Then we have the Left Party, which has no European idea or even consent, which is yeah, I mean, there's no other way than a united Europe. So the Left Party should be clear on that. But without being clear in this point, it's not possible so far as to work with them. Because the European strategy is always the most important point for us. That's why I like also the name you proposed, Vincent, but let's talk about this another day. Just to say that I can talk a thing for the whole board. We will, and this is the plan now use the corona time and also use that for the other parties, they cannot do something at the moment. So we will use now these time to prepare ourselves in the best possible way to be like on the to arrive in the landscape and the political landscape when the moment arrived for the in 25 in Germany. And it will come. I really, really believe in us. I believe in them. I believe in the electro wing. I believe that we were going to be successful in Germany. Yeah, many points already already are known. So yeah, just to maybe say or show all of you there be a very motivated in this board to work on our plan. Yes. And if we think that really DM is the only voice contradicting what's going on in the EU institutions right now and offering solutions which can be implemented. Then it is really our only hope and it is for me at least. Srećko give us some more hope. Well, I want to precisely to do the opposite. No, I will not do dystopian kind of speech, but you know, it's very nice to see you all. I think the conversation has really been good. I apologize that we didn't have it earlier. I hope we will have it more often. But instead of going out with this kind of political hopeful speech, I think it would be good to just before we finish this talk that we also outlined as sorry to be boring some very concrete next steps, whether it's two or three or five, you know, what are we going to do next week in Germany? What are we going to do until summer? What are the main actions? I know Thomas and the MTV is coming. I think that that's a great event. But let's talk about this very concrete stuff and also tell us how the CC, the coordinating collective, can actually help you. You know, is there anything concrete how we can at this moment help so that we are together stronger and that we push forward to our agenda in Germany? Yeah, one concrete thing that I was thinking about was just very shortly and I really enjoyed, as I said before, to follow also the other calls and I look forward to to see what other DMS have to say and what has been stressed already in the Italian and French call was that we need a close, like a steering or working group or action group kind of a direct transnational communication between all our collectives to organize such a transnational, maybe consumer strike on Amazon. I think that would be a great thing to organize also where we can, if we get aware of this Amazon strike that's possibly happening in Hannover so we can very quickly react and connect to all of them. And I think that's something that could help us to adjust. I know that we had already really nice protest planned in Luxembourg that didn't couldn't help because of Corona but I think we can build on that and this will help us to better coordinate and be more effective on the ground in the future. Definitely, we need more actions on the ground. I have Lea and then CeCe. Yeah, in order to be perceived as European party by the public, we need to uniform corporate identity for the lecture wings. And corporate identity is a complex thing and we have to work on this really quickly so we can start with our public relations work and get more visible. So I think this is a concrete step which CeCe could really help us to build up this corporate identity for all of our lecture wings like name and decisions like that. So we have to focus on this really quickly. Now CeCe, can you hear me? Okay, thanks. I know we didn't have the time to speak about migration which is a huge issue and something that really has been a problem for the whole Europe but especially for the South, Greece and Italy and Spain to a lesser extent. I know it's too late to start discussing about this. However, I think that as an idea and a concrete perhaps plan and sort of project, the idea of municipalization that Thomas and all the comrades refer to perhaps could be a weapon in your hands for specific and concrete actions like the ones that I think certain municipalities like Munich, if I'm not mistaken, have taken concerning the unprotected minors. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do remember that in certain municipalities, the local authorities took the initiative to accept a number of unprotected minors. I think it could be a very good idea if you as a national committee in an electoral wing sort of generalize this because it's not just a matter of humanitarianism and sort of human benevolence, but it is a practically important political gesture of allegiance and support for the countries in Europe that have taken all the responsibility for this huge crisis for which to a great extent the German government is responsible. Thank you. Thank you, Sisi. We have Vincent and David and since we have another six minutes, I would like you to make your words the final words and the message to our viewers and DMRs. All right, thank you. Very quickly regarding concrete action proposals. I would just like to mention the billionaire pay or share protest which we planned in Luxembourg for March. We had to cancel it unfortunately because of the current situation with the coronavirus. But yeah, we already have established I think the subtext, the narrative and so on. Let's use this and make it a transnational unified campaign. It can also be applied in the German context. Let's find alternative forms of demonstration for the digital age and deliver a clear message against tax fraud and tax evasion. I think this should also be considered. Thank you. Absolutely and the perfect exercise also to educate where are we thinking to fund those programs that we're talking about. So the first thing is that we're not going to impose more taxes on people but to corporations. And if I'm not mistaken, David, you will be the last to have the floor. I think Eric had a quick step so I will make it short. One thing we could need from the CC or from the DM Central is I think it would be a good idea to have small short-term scholarships like for instance three months if we can afford it because we are all volunteers but sometimes it is good when you plan a big action that you have one person that can at least dedicate some of its workload for this. And I think a three or six months scholarship for one or two people that have to apply would be a really great help to have one person that can dedicate a lot of time to organize this and to be the spokesperson for something. Absolutely, Eric. I think David's point is fantastic. It's really important and I mean money as prosaic and boring and vulgar as it sounds is such a key element to being able to organize anything impactually. So if we manage now with these new proposals that are coming through with the DM to stabilize our financial situation make it a bit more predictable and so on then perhaps we can increase the budgets of our national collectives. They can then allocate these kinds of budgets to people who can be helping them and so on. I get very excited when we think about the bigger budget for the DM because there's so much that we can do and all the ideas are there and often we're just missing the tools and the capacity but I didn't want to end on such a vulgar point. We are a post capitalist movement after all. What I wanted to say was about the Vincent's point which I was also involved in the billionaire pay or share campaign and I thought it was fantastic. I was so excited about it happening and then it didn't because coronavirus and there is no reason why it shouldn't happen just because we're closed indoors. The new agoras are all balconies. That is where messages are now. That's where we come once a week to clap or whatever. There are still ways to communicate messages during corona times and we need to be adapting to those ways. I agree and I think the best way to get a project to spread through DM is for us to focus on our mandate. For example, take that project that was meant to be for Luxembourg and try and find a way to adapt it for Germany. Through that adaptation for Germany then we can spread it to France and then they can adapt to France and we as a CC can help you with that facilitation, with spreading that. But if we already start by trying to organize it at the European level then everybody who has a national mandate tries to do that and then the CC comes in and things get complex and confused and whatever. We should definitely work on that. Help us by working for a national version of that campaign and then we can try and replicate it around Europe and we can help with that dissemination. We can help with that coordination by focusing on those different mandates so everything flows. I would love to work on that with you guys. I really think it's a very good topic for a demonstration. Yes, this unfortunate times of self-isolation, confinement and home prison. We are closed in Serbia for the whole weekend so greetings. Gave us more opportunities actually. There is something fortunate in every misfortune as we say here. With Srećko living in the Zoom box and with the brilliant people talking to us every night and with all of us full of energy and ideas and with the only hope in the end we should do more to activate, to organize and to save Europe for ourselves. Thank you for being here and looking forward to seeing you again. Bye comrades.