 It's my light too low. I just lowered it a little bit nuts. No, it's mine too bright in the front. No, good Okay, cool. We're all about the same Scott for you for your angle. Do we look all about the same brightness? That's always a issue for us. Yeah, you could be a little brighter Greg. Okay Cuz you look a little red for some reason Like a tanning bad red. That's from running today. Oh, it was nice. It was 64 here today. It's sunny Yeah, 64. Yeah, we once lost water for around about a month We had to highlight from that from the neighbor's hose Come come out of their hose line into our hose line and feed water from their whole system into our whole house Chase is involved in roadie work there I've got the mic sir That's not a bad roadie that that's pretty good All right, you ready? Yeah. All right. Here we go I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in body language And I created the number one online body language course body language tactics with Greg Hartley and I got This today Chase's new book. Dude. It's really good. Really good. Thanks. Yeah, mark I'm up Odin. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language Help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility Every time they speak including some of the leaders of the g7 Also wrote with tracy thompson truth and lies, which is now out today as an audiobook Chase I am chase Hughes I am a behavioral expert did 20 years in the u.s. Military Now I teach intelligence agencies and the general public in persuasion Interrogation behavior profiling and influence great Greg Hartley. I'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior And this put together this body language tactics.com course with scott and I also have chase's new book buy it It's good. I spend most of my time on wall street and in corporate america Awesome. All right. Well, please subscribe to our channel You know, we get a lot of people that come here and then they don't subscribe They show up a lot apparently just tap that little red thing down there that says youtube on it and you'll be subscribed Just takes a second and also we get so many emails from everybody with suggestions and we really appreciate it We read them all and we're going to prove it today because we've been getting so many emails about jody arias It's unbelievable So the panelists have sent in time after time email after email, please do jody jody arias So that's what we're going to do today and remember as we go through this. We're switzerland We don't care if she's guilty if she's innocent. She's already been she's imprisoned for doing this and has admitted it But we don't care either way. We're not into solving a case or anything like that We're just telling you what we see in their body language You ready? Yeah There we go Did you kill travis alexander? He absolutely did not kill travis alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in any way All right, greg what do you got? Yeah, so chase you always bring up the reed strong positive denial She comes out of the gate pretty hard here with a really strong positive denial Knowing who she is and I cut guys. I covered this for cnn and for for um court tv back when this was in real time Knowing who she is I go check her laptop for links to read Just because I think she prepared for the for the interview because that's who she is She does kind of a head bobble thing You know in india in indian subcontinent guys in the in the comments below Please make us smart about what all those head bobbles and different moves may mean another culture But in american culture in north american culture even in sub pockets mostly we don't do a lot of that There's a yes or a no and I do know that like in gag Yes, that's no and this is yes, so sometimes those are backward, but she's not in that culture She is from this part of the world And she's doing that head bobble and it makes me wonder what she's exactly saying She's doing something so in our course the the true crime workshop at true come workshop the true crime workshop dot com We talk about five strategies and I'm going to tell you she's got a whole different suit of crazy for each day We're going to see every time she's going to use a different one I didn't think I'd ever see anybody who would use all five, but she does And in this case she's using something we call romance her and that's where I'm really focused on you and everything else Doesn't matter we have to look really close to find her body language away from that because she's so focused on this person That even with an increased blink rate. She's still got frozen eye contact It's all about you and then she uses our classic and I'm going to leave it at dust because I don't want to steal everybody's thunder She uses our classic. I absolutely did not and then she gives that strong positive denial But I absolutely did not no contractions none of that that we won't hear when she's talking normally So that's what I've got. Let's mark. What do you got? Yeah, so same as you there greg a good strong denial right up up there and and so yeah out the gate Looks pretty good done there. You know, great. She's very forceful with that Absolutely. Yeah, she has a head shake on that did not kill a head nod Now just because she's nodding on did not kill it doesn't mean that she's lying But it's kind of notable. It's interesting that she goes very quickly from absolutely to did not It's kind of notable. Um, and by the way, I don't know. I've never watched her before I don't even know anything that she's meant to have done. So I'm going through this Just going okay. I don't know what the hell's happening here, but let's let's just see. Okay Um, hands are locked down. So she's she's um clearly kind of locked herself into a position there That's kind of interesting But the biggest thing that's of interest to me is zero forehead movement In areas that and she's talking about, you know, absolutely did not kill I would expect something to happen around the eyebrows or around the forehead somewhere around You know, I did or didn't kill somebody I would expect something and at this point I've got Flazer pancake absolute zero on that. So again notable. So notable strong denial notable kind of differentiation between nods and shakes and Locked down and Absolutely plain forehead interesting Scott. What do you got? All right Well, this is this is one of my favorite things to see because in this situation We're seeing we always hear about mirroring where you Where somebody sits that way you try to sit that way too or something similar to it or something So you look a little bit more like that person and they help some connect with you and in this case This is wonderful because we're seeing Her not only mirror this guy. She's mirroring his personnel his personality as a reporter as as the interviewer So the list as we go through these videos listen to her sentence structure How it matches the person she's talking to watch her hands when she when the person starts counting She starts counting listen to listen to the thing. She says and the tone of voice. She uses the very same tone of voice That's coming at her. She's completely reflecting That person back to them psychopaths do that. I don't think she's a psychopath We're dealing with a different personality type here, but we're we're seeing somebody who has that down And I don't think she can help it. I don't I think she's so used to doing that She just starts doing it because as we go through these videos, we'll see she does the same thing to so many people She's got that blank stare and that's supposed to give the give that That interviewer where she's got a blank look as well that feeling of I'm being serious and I understand what you're saying I'm being serious as I say absolutely had nothing to do with it Her hair is interesting in this as well because as we go through we see her hair Get closer and closer and closer to her face a lot of times Girls will pull it out of the way or knock it out of the way or do that number But in this case it's just coming down almost covering her it begins to cover her face We'll see some cases where it gets really close almost cloaking her as she goes through You guys have covered most everything else But it's it's important to listen to her sentence structure as we go through this and and listen to her adjectives How they match or sometimes exactly mirror the adjectives that person uses as she reads piece back to Okay, chase. What do you got? Let's talk about some truth signals in this This is another thing. I agree with scott. I think she read The read interrogation manual in that she was comfortable using both kill And murder In the exact same denial I thought it was unusual too had the same notes as mark did what we're talking about Her nodding as she's saying nodding during the commission This is maybe a gestural mismatch at best But it's a very good data point because her behavior No matter what her behavior does not have this in her baseline in her other videos or anything She's posted on social media before And in any way I didn't harm him in any way in any way is what's called a qualifier We're adding something on to the end to make the first part make more sense And if you watch this again, there's no emotion. It is vapid And hollow and empty So I think that's Interesting to know but biggest of all as I said in our previous videos to you There's a vanishing perpetrator She claims to have seen it And doesn't discuss the perpetrator if you even witnessed the crime especially if you saw it happen That would be the key focus no matter what question somebody asked you You would be describing to them what happened the horrors that you witnessed the person that committed the crime The perpetrator is gone We don't see it here at all That's an incredibly valuable data point that I think points very closely to deception here That's all I got Excellent All right, did you kill travis alexander? I absolutely did not kill travis alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder I didn't harm him in any way. We good Yep I witnessed um travis being attacked By two other individuals Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened? Um, they came into his home and attacked us both All right chase. What do you got? I think pronouns are important Especially here There's a book called the secret life of pronouns. It's by dr. James pennabaker Who really digs into this stuff? I think he's a psychology professor at the university of texas She says they came into his house And attacked us And I witnessed a person attacking Now let's think about the words she's using. She's saying I witnessed individuals not people not men Not somebody I witnessed individuals. This is clinical sterile vapid hollow non-emotional language And instead of talking about what happened She's talking about the evidence. I witnessed something happen I witnessed people attacking him not a recalling of what happened in at all Which is a failure to answer the question in the first place And all of the words and the way she describes anything here I'll stay away from behavior for this because you guys probably pick up on a lot But everything was distant the language the pronouns the descriptors and even the adjectives that she uses here are distant Greg Yeah, so this person and I'm no psychologist I'm not going to tell you I am but from a distance this person looks a hell of a lot like Somebody with borderline personality to the extreme to me In my experience with people with borderline personality, they're supplicant to you They will kiss up and get really close for what they want from you Until they realize that you're not playing their game and then you get the explosion in the other direction Because often their motions are rampant in every direction. They're not calm about anything They're passionate about everything And so you end up with this kind of a personality going out of their way to really suck up to you very supplicant up front And I can feel that now I have to learn to put words to that feeling but that feeling of that person plugging into every receptor I have and trying to make me happy makes me uncomfortable I interrogate a lot of people in my life and those were always bad guys that did that not one person who ever did it Turned out to be innocent. So, you know, you got to be careful not to project but We know later Chase you're dead on I witnessed travis being attacked passive voice Not I witnessed him not I'd witnessed murder. I witnessed people killing him. I witnessed this I witnessed by two individuals You've ever seen the movie movie idiocracy all the really dumb guys Call people individuals particular individuals and that kind of thing It just made me think of that jumped off the plate at me real quick great Yeah, if if you can finish a sentence with the words by zombies Yeah, and it's passive voice. Yeah, I witnessed him being attacked by zombies great great call out guys That's a good one chase as a tool for you Chase gave you a tool that you can use always to look for passive voice, but passive voice You don't expect that when a person is killed that you care about she also never says I wasn't one of the people who did it. I guess it's implied when she says other But she her eyes blink eight times in 14 seconds when she's talking about this crime She's still in romance or she's still not taking her eyes off you and they're blinking That right there is the kind of stuff you wake up in the middle of the night sweating over if you've You know if you were there and survive this attack because that kind of constant focus Usually I associate it with a person has some kind of a personality disorder And that ability to constantly suck up right there is just powerful So pay attention to her because you're going to see you're doing this the rest of the time We don't see her get angry because the people that do won't forget it guaranteed scott. What do you got? All right, there's no way she could possibly agree with all you guys She could possibly separate herself from this even any further I mean everything is Happened over there. She's telling everything almost from even though she was involved as a in the third person almost except for I witnessed and as we know people who use Cop and lawyer terms have usually spent a lot of time with cops and lawyers and or lawyers So that's why she talked. That's one of the reasons she talks like that She has spent an enormous amount of time time with them up to that point There's no emotion in her forehead except when He says what happened in her eyebrows are up and she's saying what happened was That part of it. Um, you guys covered most everything that I've that I've got as well Yeah, but the part that bothered me was that I witnessed Sounds like she's in court. What what happened? I witnessed whatever or a police report I witnessed whatever or this happened. What did you do? I witnessed this as you write all that stuff down Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I just want to show you on my on my notes. Just as you were saying that Scott no forehead still no forehead action happening. No description of the attackers Up here again rings alarm bells with me And then I get further down into it and I think to myself You you couldn't pick them from a lineup. Well, that doesn't mean you couldn't describe something, you know tall short slight In jackets and coats boots. I mean something but no I'm not going to describe them at all because I couldn't pick them even in a lineup. So that kind of alarms me um Oh, I witnessed um Travis. So there's an there's a filler in there. There's another filler in uh, what what happened and then there's an um before that so these fillers are coming in again It alarms me of putting a filler in doesn't mean anybody's being deceitful or I'm just taking you through When I'm looking at something fresh These are the kind of things that I pick up on is like what why do you have to stall there? For a story that could be vivid in your imagination. What's the stall about? Why does the brain have to think at that point? There are some very good reasons But I'd want to check out that that is happening for good reason rather than bad reason now Here's the the thing that really sticks out for me and and scott when you put the uh the video in Make sure you keep the few frames before we get we fade into her because as I was watching that I picked up on those first few frames and and a little alarm bell went off in my head when you need to look at that picture So I went back and looked at the picture and what it's fading from is a picture of uh the the woman here holding uh a man's uh With a man and and I assume the man is travis. I don't know But I I assume that and The picture alarmed my unconscious because the hand is behind the neck and the other hand is cupping the chin This is what we call a trophy gesture So a trophy the word trophy comes actually from trophic, which means to kind of separate or move hard or or or change its direction And and original trophies were literally the heads of the enemy You would slice off the head of the enemy and you would display it and that was a trophy She is holding somebody's head as a trophy The gesture she's making there is really quite odd and not usual. You don't normally see Number one people being allowing anybody to do that or even anybody Doing it even just the touching of the face is a really big gesture But the touching and then holding the back of the neck as well. So you have complete control of that It's a pretty big thing So I instantly two videos go it into it go there's something up here There's something really up here because that is an interesting gesture to want to deliver and to be captured So that's what I got on that one. There we go And another thing just to add to it. We're hearing the headline of the story. We're not hearing the story We're not hearing what happened. We're hearing the headline of what happened. That's also exactly what you read Yep, so let me add one last thing because I think this is tying all this together What these people are good at the kind of people who do this, you know receptor thing I'm talking about where they're supplicant and then explode is they have a great innate Where we may say a psychopath doesn't know how to work people and they have to learn They instinctively know how to work people they instinctively because all their emotions are up down all that are broad and deep They fall in love quickly. They fall out of love quickly those kinds of things But they perceive what somebody needs quicker than other people and if you watch you'll find that natural tendency to mirror This is some of the best mirroring. I can't teach mirroring better than she does in this in this show We'll point it out as we get to these next few frames Cool. I witnessed um Travis being attacked by two other individuals Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened? Um, they came into his home and attacked us both. All right. We good? Yeah I'm not proud that I just left my friend there To be slaughtered at the hands of two other people. I'm not proud of that at all. You understand You look guilty here I understand that everything All of the evidence against me right now is very compelling. All right. I'll go first on this one Um, what we're seeing here again is what I talked about the very beginning The guy starts doing this and she starts doing that too when you watch this the second time pay attention to her hands in this We may see some digital flexion But at the same time what we're seeing mostly is as her copying what this guy is doing He starts counting which is I think is a couple minutes from now Then um her hair again is starting to get a little bit closer to her face on that one side Her again her adjectives or descriptors are just right down the Same path as his very same thing almost she's still trying to act serious and then uh Who says To be slaughtered this way. I feel but nobody talks this way It's it's a story and I don't think she rehearses her stories out loud I think this is a bad example Or a great example of somebody who doesn't rehearse the story. They're getting ready to tell They know what they're gonna say, but they just think about it all the time and don't say it So mark, what do you got? Yeah So again, just so you can see we we don't look at these videos together We do it completely separately come together Just here. I've got she almost mirrors his his hand chop Now why I say she almost mirrors the hand chop is she stops herself She does one and she's about to do another and then she goes Yeah, I shouldn't be I shouldn't do that and she She knuckles her hands down again and then her eyes go down just off the side So she can catch them in her peripheral vision to check that they are locked down So at the same time as being potentially naturally good at mirroring I would suggest she also is used to doing this on purpose in order to get very very specific results And she's also very conscious that if she does it too much If she does it too much it might be found out or it might be too overwhelming. It might be too obvious So it's quite interesting. I think we have a personality here that is able to View their own behavior and watch it from a distance dislocate from it Watch it from a distance and have some kind of critical thinking over that at the same time Okay, so that's what I have on that one chase. What do you got? I think what mark when you're talking about distancing language. She's saying at the hands of two other people Which is massively massively removed from what's going on not when they were stabbing him when they shot him in the head with the With the gun or any of the other stuff and it's not the attackers the assailants the murderers the men The people who came in the house. It's just the people and Anytime she says i'm not proud Whatever comes after it will be a piece of evidence That's going to make her innocent. It's going to be an alibi or a reason that she's evidence or reason that she's innocent and She's showing a willingness to reveal personal information. So this is a mini confession of sorts And on the large scale of this where might be talking to a guy who's accused of murder And he said look I did not do anything that you guys are talking about but I have some heroin It's in the ashtray of my car. It's parked in the parking lot outside I've been meaning to tell somebody I just wanted to come clean and let you know on the lower scale A woman might be asking her husband. Hey, what's this? What's this app called tender on your phone? And and the husband says well, you know, I've been meaning to tell you I downloaded a few weeks ago I chatted with a few people. I thought it was a business networking app But you know, I've been meaning to tell you something about that, you know, I'm glad you brought that up and that's a mini confession And another thing that we're seeing here is a well rehearsed behavior And there's some research on this that says they may be hiding true feelings or intent Sad lonely or anxious But they know they're being observed and they want to give the impression of that as well And this is called extra face And it is in this book right here I'm still waiting for my copy to amazon to deliver it I got through past times Come on amazon jade I really I really appreciate you doing that. It's Things where I don't get to talk about those things as often as I would like to but I'm gonna Start doing that more I don't I think you've seen enough of you because look at that on the back He's in the truth All right, sorry, but thank you. Oh, yeah, I guess I better wrap Yeah, so guys Just what mark said we don't talk. There's mirroring. There's her moving her hands starting to mirror and then pausing We see the same things because it's repeatable This is why you know that this is not some kind of voodoo witchcraft Tarot card readings because we're looking at it from different angles and all of us are writing down the same things Doesn't mean that other people don't see different things, but once you study this enough, you're gonna pay attention She innately knows what somebody needs Guarantee you she's gotten away with a whole lot in her life because she knows what to say and when to say It and she's just playing that she does do a little bit of navigation about what to say next is she's looking down into the right And she's navigating through but I agree with you as well mark She locks her eyes over to make sure how she's being perceived Only kevin spacey can hold his forehead as still as she can That's the only other person I've ever seen do this He won Awards for this. She's just fighting for her life. So I guess that's the reason but amazing Concrete forehead no involvement. We'll see that change later, but we're on the same page same stuff I think we're seeing that kind of personality that we'll do what it takes to get what it needs And it's the organism is how she operates That's all I don't think that's that's not botox either. No, no, no That's why I was asking asking you guys what the year is Because uh, you know, I was looking at stats of like how how available botox was what her age is You know, would it be would it be quite usual for a woman of her age to have botox in that year? No, so I watched her like I said, I covered this for so still I covered this for court tv back when it was real time guys We are scratching the surface on the circus that is jody arias We're going to give you a bunch of tech a bunch of short clips You we could spend this could be our show It could be the jody arias is a circus show and we could just go on and on and on and on week after week Because there's so much stuff out there. She loved the camera She got in front of the camera at every turn. She did headstands in the interrogation room Sang during her interrogation all kinds of crazy stuff that we're not even going to talk about in detail here today So yeah, I I do think she the reason she didn't rehearse scott is she's smarter than you are So why would she? That's true. That's true. I'm not proud that I just left my friend there To be slaughtered at the hands of two other people. I'm not proud of that at all. You understand You look guilty here I understand that everything All of the evidence against me right now is very compelling All right, we're good. Yeah You did not shoot travis. No, I've never even shot a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times That's that's heinous or slit his throat from ear to ear. I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat When's the last time you guys used the word heinous? I used it tuesday, but Red flag All right chase. What do you got? So the questions are all formed to have single word responses Bad idea if you're interviewing anybody your kids A person for a job employment open-ended questions are what you mostly want to do But we still need closed-ended questions always But this is not the time to do it. She never even got a chance to respond Which I think is What's the word? Yeah, heinous heinous. It's just absolutely heinous. It was a heinous thing here. I was going to say egregious And the answers are ambiguous and evasive I'll leave it at that because I'm going to go along in the next one. So, uh, scott all right When she says I never even shot a real gun We hear fading facts when someone's not being asked for the a lot of times what they'll do As any of you heard me talk about this before As they're giving the answer like a quiet toward the end of it not that quiet But you'll hear it fade like that and she backs up just a bit. It's really subtle But watch for it at that point no matter what she says every answer she she gives she's got qualifiers for it That's right. That's when then heinous comes up at that point She never shot a real gun you shoot him never shot a real gun. She stabbed 27 times. That's heinous And then uh, did you just let his throat? I can't imagine Everything has an adapter. She has a qualifier. She's she never goes. No, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. I didn't do no Are you kidding me? No, I told you no Never any of that never happened to settle her down never goes off nothing and again her hands Imagine every move every time he counts then she does the very same thing. She's just mimicking this guy literally Not mirroring but just mimicking what he does. She's reflecting not digital flexion She's reflecting his what he's doing back to her at that point. All right, uh, greg, what do you got? Yeah, guys baseline baseline baseline baseline. I ask you did you stab this guy 27? Did you just let his throat? Look guys average people if you ask did you just let this guy start? Well, no Disgust something on your face not no, I didn't do that. That's heinous or blame the perpetrators Yeah, yeah or the perpetrators somebody else is coming for me something is going to go back You're not going to be unemotional talking about stabbing a guy 27 times cutting his throat shooting him looking for a reason Why you couldn't have shot him because you never shot a gun before Okay, I could say I never shot a gun before either in my life Okay, well figure that out. Let's see where it happened. I can't imagine Well, she probably doesn't have to imagine. She knows what it's like So she can say I can't imagine what it's like No emotion no story only thing she's doing is whatever this guy needs. This is one-on-one for her That's all it is and she's doing whatever she feels like he needs and she thinks you hit it earlier scott That newscasters don't get on and do a lot of this. They're reading the news now for the facts You know that kind of thing and she's doing that. She's mirroring this guy. She's being as contained as she can And I when I was a kid, you know, they would always say watch your peas and cues and that's a very English thing I'm sure you might even know where it comes from mark, but She's watching her peas and cues. She's sitting on her hands She's paying attention to every piece of body language because she knows somebody's going to be watching this and that somebody is Us and whatever she doesn't leak. She thinks We don't get but what she doesn't understand is humans have a baseline and humans We're communicating raise our brow and we move our heads and we show disgust and we have seven universal emotions That everybody can pick up on unless there's somewhere on the spectrum and can't see faces She forgot that she's too smart for her own good in this case And so she's projecting a lot of over prepared trying to mimic the guy and not delivering a clear message Um Mark what do you got? Yeah peas and cues for dyslexics like me. Those are exactly the same thing same symbol Mark Mark, I wish you knew how many times I had to go back into art I went before we published those things and I look over the headline and the letters are switched on that Not making fun of you. You're the one with a 51 year old kid, but Yeah, so I do I actually do that a lot You know what there was there was a thing that on the internet on on linkedin the other day Some dyslexics talking about not being able to tell left from right Which I have a huge problem with left and right and the amount of people who went well You just got to do that not understanding to many dyslexics like me. That's exactly the same symbol It's exactly the same thing. There is no difference between the two. I don't know which one is an L at all So anyway, it's interesting that we're on the hands now because um, you know, we I've got here You know, just as scott was talking about um, the descriptors there and the mirroring of the descriptors because you've got a An interviewer who's going one Two, however, you've got a jodiarius who is going one Goes for her little finger instead of her index finger Now most people that I ever come across when they count when they start to do the descriptor of the list They will do index finger to index finger and they'll count in this way She's going backwards And so look I maybe would need to look at a baseline Around this and is that just a little quirk of hers? I think it's because This is not a rational list in her head And so her brain is screwing up Which way the list should do and it's going backwards For her because also just if you try this yourself It hurts when you do that with your index finger on your little finger So most people won't do that because you push a bit hard and it hurts. This is this is more usual Um, so that was of interest to me and then exactly as other people had there The denials all have qualifiers. Yeah, so Real heinous can't even imagine same as everybody else had, you know Everything now is a little bit of a qualified negotiation. So again as I start going as I look at this fresh I'm starting to see a personality here where somebody will start to negotiate The value system or the qualifiers or the qualities of everything that is is said again Red flags go off in my mind around what kind of person we've probably got here. That's all I've got for you You did not shoot Travis. No, I've never even shot a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times That's that's heinous or slit his throat from ear to ear. I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. All right, we good Yeah All right, no jury is going to convict me Why not because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me All right chase. What do you got? I don't think she believes what she's saying here at all One thing I've noticed and I don't think I've read this in any research is that when someone is very Insecure or uncertain is what that word means about what they're saying They will close their mouth immediately when they're done talking the lips will come back together I've never seen research on that so I can't cite anything. Maybe you guys can Her hands are moving outward to protect the body So the body's forming a structure that's harder If just look at it this way if it's harder for a saber-tooth tiger To attack the person You're seeing fear or insecurity vulnerability that kind of thing some kind of a threat is is perceived there And she's repeating the phrase which indicates more uncertainty because she's not repeating it for the reporter She's repeating it for herself to increase her level of confidence in what she's saying There's no emotion here and this is a perfect example for the punishment question And the punishment question basically goes What do you think should happen to the person that did this once we find him? Of course, what do you think should happen to the person? And in the read technique, we're basically asking the person to determine their own sentence And this is a very nervous time in that person's life when they have to determine What's going to happen to me and I get to choose what's going to happen to me and in a Maybe a sexual predator type of case you might say well, you know, this person's definitely ill Definitely an apology to the family some kind of a therapy but not jail time But definitely some kind of an apology to the family And in my personal life About five years ago that there's a three foot spill of chocolate milk on the white living room rug And I go to ask my two kids who are seven and eight at the time Who spilled the milk and both of them denied it? So I separated them. I said To my son I said Did you spill that milk on the rug? He goes no, I said to my daughter. Did you spill that milk? She said no Then I said to my daughter What should happen to the person that spilled that milk on the rug? And she said spankings no more xbox no more wi-fi Can't access the internet anymore can't go outside can't play with my friends nothing And I went to my son and I said what should happen to the person That spilled the chocolate milk out here and he says, uh, no more chocolate milk in the living room So it works equally well on adults as it does to kids And that's the punishment question that works on stable children not The people who think hmm, let me see Yeah Scott Okay, um My story that's similar to that one Is when we were little we had a furnace in our in our house and the grate would come up It was in the living room And it was just this metal thing if you didn't know what it was You really wouldn't pay attention to it and we had these plastic rubber boats And somebody had left one on that thing and it had melted through The uh the furnace thing right so my dad comes in he's like okay. Well who did this and we're like She wasn't me you know we could just be perplexed And he said okay, let me see your hands So I stick my hands out like that My sister sticks her hands out my brother sticks his hands out starts crying So that's why he busted him So here we see hard eye contact she's like boom locked in on this guy, right And she's doing the same thing should we see her mirroring? And you're right chase her her she creates a bigger barrier through using digital flexion On her knee as she comes up you can see your hands clasping on that knee digital flexion and then Yeah, and all this indicates she's just not sure she's not sure you know How far this is going to go or how how much she should say because I think at this point She's getting the peel that man I'm having to go deep on some of these things because this guy's coming right at her But at the same time he's he's asking those questions and his demeanor and his tone She's just reflecting it right back at him mark. What do you got? Yep So what I've got here in my notes is she is boldly defiant At that point which is extraordinary an extraordinary thing of defiance that no jury is going to is going to Convict her that's an extreme statement to make Now as she says because I'm innocent which is a good reply Like she may have read that one in a book somewhere like you know that you know the people who are innocent will say Because I'm innocent because I didn't do it. So that's fantastic. But yes, she locks her Fingers around her legs and specifically on the knees. So what I want people to look out for Is not only when you know people kind of tuck in To protect themselves from the saber tooth tiger But also when you see that they are protecting the joints on their body from the saber tooth tiger because You know a predator can get into your limbs And other parts of the limb are still going to work But if they get into your joints Then the bones that are attached to them neither side works Particularly well that the the joint is the weak spot Essentially so under stress under pressure You may see people tuck in but also Start to protect joints especially the wrist You'll see people protect the wrist joints the finger joints as well elbow joints You'll start to see them and you'll get that as everybody's been saying it's got especially digital flexion Into they're very different from here To there and here she goes for the knees I'm gonna I'm gonna have to break open my copy Right. I got you man. Right. You go while I go and get my copy Sure. Yeah, so guys agreed. She does a barrier. She does an explosive barrier She pushes her hands out to push you away more importantly Nobody does this as a barrier pulls their knees up puts their hands in front of their knees My opinion is she it sees that as some kind of feminizing move And a way for her to kind of turn her torso to him kind of to an oblique Again, she's romancing and I don't mean romancing in the in the true romantic version of it I mean she is paying close attention to him and trying to plug into what she thinks he needs And I think that is an instinctive thing for her to push her hands forward and then suddenly she's like Oh, I don't want to look like that and she pulls her hands up You can tell I have kind of a jaundice opinion of her after watching her do headstands And seeing and do all kinds of acrobatics in the interrogation room when she's trying to Personalize herself to the other person. So I think in her case most of this stuff is just her working the audience She purses her lips a little When she's starting that whole now mark my words the other one scott This is you say this all the time, but this is dick dastardly on the train tracks right here Mark my words. You'll never see her live again. Oh, yeah, not the way people Hard That's not the way people talk typically. I don't think I I don't remember the last time I use the words heinous and mark my words in a single Day lifetime, maybe I don't know that I've ever used those two words you to describe a situation So this is more of her romancing. She's in she's in romance. She's in that pushing one of the five strategies that we think people use to or one of the five strategies that people do use to Deceive and to push you away from them so you can't get information It's just what she's doing again that face is not doing a whole lot a little bit of lip-persing and that's it No jury is going to convict me Why not because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me. All right. Um, did you I have to ask you this. Did you kill travis hoax? Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it Mark what do you got? Yeah, I had no part in it, uh, which is which is um, you know pretty defiant And I'm pretty clear However chin tilts up at that point. There is a little touch of potential arrogance there a bit a bit of a sense of I don't think you can touch me So maybe a sense of arrogance there still nothing happening in the forehead here again notable um, what I find interesting is we've got Sour taste Here as well those corners pinch up you get the cheeks coming in That sense of something sour in the mouth a little bit of a swallow as well as She prepares for the question, which is you know the question, you know Did you kill somebody and so there is some preparation and then once she said what she said with that little bit of defiance And arrogance it goes back to sour taste as the lips pull back and the cheeks pull in there So again as a as a you know I still don't quite know what this is about but as I'm looking at this I'm going this summing up with that statement and that question there Scott, what have you got? All right, again, we have hard hard eye contact and she's again mirroring these people. She's reflecting It's not not talking about digital reflection. It sounds like it. Let's say reflecting I was talking about she's reflecting what she's seen off these women now This is the same the same video was made and one of those where she's started She's put her makeup on at the beginning and talking to those women It's three women asking her questions in this in this section in this Interview she's doing and what she's doing is she's trying to be like all three of those women They're in there. They look nice. They're they know they're going to be on tv So they're all dressed up and look nice and she's as well her hair is down her face now It's pulled back behind her ear the ear that you can't see I guess her right ear It's pulled back so you can't see it So she's still hardcore. She's she's juggling three people at the same time And if you were to go through if we were to go through that video, we'd see her doing that Imitating each one of those women as well And she gives her stock answer her stock Poorly rehearsed answer absolutely not and she's almost she looks scared to death when she's doing that because she she knows That's not true And she's looking right at these women who's trying to be like and this is what separates her from those women She's in prison and they're not they're there to talk about her being in prison. So that makes her uncomfortable I think that's why we're seeing that Look on her face chase. What do you got? Well, you guys covered everything I had except for one thing We have another case Vanishing perpetrator Did you do this? No he's people did Who broke into the home as I witnessed the things that happened in the room That would have been a better answer than what she gave here Even though it's horrible The perpetrator Would be key front and center Not just that she knew that it happened but that she witnessed the entire event according to her The perpetrator would be the key player in the entire story So no, I didn't kill this. I I didn't kill this guy. I know who did it I watched them do this and they did this and this and it was horrible It was awful. I curled up in a ball or I covered my ears A lot of those kinds of things tend to happen in stories like this Greg Yeah, so a couple of things I can't remember anything about this person that she mentioned earlier What we know is that criminals people who do it for a profession know about redirects So they may wear a big floppy hat or do something odd like that. I'm going back to mcdonnell Whatever And that is a giveaway To allow a person to catch and link on to something that they've then discard Watched a case a couple of days ago where a woman was wearing a very distinct dress They remember the dress not the woman So that's criminal 101 for organized crime folks and that kind of thing they redirect and then they throw away whatever the prop is At least she would have remembered that and to your point chase and the only reason I'm Jumping on that's because of this perpetrator thing She would have said and they were wearing a raincoat when they came in the house or something She would remember something not nothing This remembering nothing is a piece and you would say some other scumbag did this to your point Not this when she asked her did you deep swallow the only thing I noticed that we hadn't mentioned is a really deep swallow And then she declares in that voice tone and she puts emphasis Mark you talk about driving down the emphasis is on no part as that jaw comes up And that draws her lips back for requesting approval. That's all I see She's romancing this woman the same way Now go back and listen to her voice tone when she's talking to this woman versus that man She is changing her voice tone and her demeanor as she talks to this woman Very different personas and you're going to see her playing throughout the reason I said she gets a different crazy suit every day She's going to be different in every one of these things. You see her personality is there But it's certainly not consistent. The only consistency is she's giving you what you need. That's what I got Did you I have to ask you this. Did you kill trevis hoax? Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it Cool Are we good? Yeah There we go And had you received since these people told you that they knew where your folks lived and they had all your information Had you then or have you ever been threatened by them? Have they contacted you in any way? I believe they have somebody has contacted me when I was Still being when I was still in jail in california. I received two threats on my life And these I don't know how these Notes get passed around jails. Um, they're I've never figured out the full system. I haven't spent enough time yet But there are ways that notes can get passed between inmates or from the outside to the inside and vice versa without just under the radar Of officers and things like that. And of course it's it's it's um against the rules and it's it's punishable All right, I go first on this one So this is a case where she can't she can't be that woman She can't turn that woman that woman is is out hotting her Because she's she's being aggressive, but she's being feminine And the strong aggressive feminine woman man, there's nothing like that and this girl can't copy that She can't give that back to her. She can't reflect that as you're going through this and when she asked her Ask her about that. She doesn't say Yes, she says I believe then goes into the story. I won't say I won't go Into the chaff and redirect bar because I know greg you're gonna jump up in that real big Then but she looks down like she's a child as she's saying these things She's being so submissive during this because again, she's being out hoted by this by this By this woman because she can't compete there. She can she's met her match when it comes to that um Then um Then it's all just chaff and redirect most of it. Everything is she gives a little thing And and when the part where she plays like ignorant about I don't know how they pass notes and how it works or whatever But you know, I got mine Really, I mean, I don't I can't I don't know why that woman didn't stop and go Are you kidding me? You got to be kidding me and get up and got up and left because just ridiculous You said they're gonna hang you man. You you better make a deal or something Something here and she's and and being really super submissive most of the time it's just I know I'm going to steal a lot of stuff from you guys So I'm like, uh, so I'll I'll stop there. Greg. What do you got? Yeah, so a couple of things remember I said in the beginning We have these five different strategies that liars use one is stancer one is transfer transfer means I'm doing something to Make myself unavailable to you and that can be anything from swaying or going into an emotional state and softening So that I'm off Dealing with something else and you can't get through to me She does transfer in here and then in the middle of it She changes directions from transfer to what I call insulator what we call insulator I'm going to throw out so much chaff and so much garbage. You can't possibly get through it to me So she does two strategies in one. She does transfer and she does insulator now Here's my favorite part of the whole thing. I believe someone threatened me. Well, hold on Last time I was threatened. I knew I was threatened and I also find it odd What did they write in the note? You better watch it. I'm gonna come down there to jail and kill you Is that what they wrote because I would ask her what did they write if they said that she's down to her right She is working listen to her voice tone change again Listen to her shift gears to be what this woman wants Soften herself and then she goes down to the right as she's having some kind of internal conversation Likely emotional for her at the moment and she is navigating through the minefield as she changes her cadence to make up details Um, I'm gonna have to use it in three of us are gonna head it. I haven't spent enough time in there yet Even she knows she's going to jail. I mean come on everybody knows But she emphasizes yet and all I could think when I heard it was well, you'll get your time Don't worry. You'll know exactly how this works. She's storytelling. She's chaff and redirecting She is really paying attention to this person and giving them what they need and that Is her in the nutshell chase. What do you have yet? What I think to scott's point I think this woman's behavior is causing something that's very common in psychology called regression So I think she is defaulting to a regressive or childlike behavior because that's kept her safe in the past Anytime we feel threatened We'll we'll either default to training which she doesn't have right now for this Or what's kept us safe when we were little Younger than the age of 13 when a lot of these scripts and hardcore patterns Write themselves into our our brain without us really knowing about it So I think that that regression is a defense mechanism for her in some regard here And we're also seeing Another I think this is the second confirmation that we're seeing here that her eye home or the place that she usually accesses memories is about nine o'clock if you're looking at at her face there from from our view from your view and There's solid internal dialogue Her eyes are going straight down because the interviewer asked an open-ended question and forced her into that position Which I think is fantastic And no one's mentioned this yet, but she used the word yet And she's kind of uh, maybe a little foreshadowing Going on subconsciously for her that I haven't uh, I haven't spent enough time here yet But she's using this distance language and things like that and such But I think it's important to notice that she says this is against the rules and this is punishable At the very end of this clip you'll hear her say this is punishable So whoever's doing this I'm gonna I'm gonna say they're really bad because punishable by x y and z Which I think was the end of her sentence here at the after the clip ends Is what she's been hearing about herself for the last several months. So in order to make it severe She's gonna she's gonna say that the other people are subject to the same thing that I am Is that everybody? Nope. No mark mark What do you got? So uh, yeah, so to scott's point. I've got here. She is more flirtatious Now and what I mean by flirtatious is she'll get strong eye contact and then she'll look away The eyelids will come down. She'll look away and then she'll grab more eye contact and then she'll look away And that kind of she's fishing. She's drawing us in she's drawing us in so I started wondering to myself So why is she doing this? Because things have changed now and my my assumption is That she has something now that the media would like She's now got some kind of new story something that she knows That they will they will tag on to and and they might play to her Advantage they'll join in with us. So she's fishing there But it's to the to the points there of innocence and childlike it reminded me and I've written it down here Princess Diana with Martin Bashir If you've seen that interview you see Diana do now I'm not saying Diana is lying at all or the same personality in any way But the same flirtatious tactics are used and by flirtatious I mean to get strong strong eye contact and then draw away So that the other person wonders where are you going? Where are you going? You had such good eye contact What's happening? What's going on? What's going on with you and they get intrigued by you Because you're suggesting I've got something valuable in here that you really really want. So I think She's playing The interviewer quite well at this point The softer tone of voice as well more flirtatious So, uh, let me see if I can add a little more value around this idea of Yet, so you've heard that this idea of well, why would she say yet? Because um, well because maybe she realizes she's going to have more time there But she puts a lot of stress on time. I haven't had enough time yet Well, that suggests that she's saying that she didn't know how the system worked not because She's not smart or she didn't have the knowledge or she's not not intelligent It's because she didn't spend enough time there. So she's saying hey, I'm really smart. I'm really intelligent If I had more time, I'd know how things Work so at the same time is saying look, I just don't know anything about this She also wants to say but i'm really smart I'm really intelligent and what that signals for me is a certain personality type What is the type of person who at the same time is saying I don't know anything about this will also have to say But i'm really smart by the way. I'm really really clever I don't know anything about about this just having enough time really specific personality type will do that and i'll let you Investigate what kind of personality that would be Um, oh and then takes the moral high ground at the at the end, you know, it's against the rules So again, she's playing with this idea of uh, other things other people have done things wrong I can tell when people are doing things Wrong and that wasn't a wrong thing that I was any part of So that's what I got around that and had you received since these people told you that They knew where your folks lived and they had all your information Had you then or have you ever been threatened by them? Have they contacted you in any way? I believe they have somebody has contacted me when I was um, still When I was still in jail in california. I received two threats on my life And these I don't know how These notes get passed around jails. Um, they're I've never figured out the full system. I haven't spent enough time Yet, but there are ways that notes can get passed between inmates or from the outside to the inside and vice versa without just under the radar Of um officers and things like that and of course it's it's it's um against the rules and it's it's punishable All right Tell me about the threats. Um, they were um two threats saying that um On paper on paper And that I need to be careful when I come to arizona because You know just sort of a watch your back kind of thing All right, greg. What do you got? Yeah, so I think she perceives a threat in this woman in a way she hasn't up to now Because watch her chin It's not up ever we haven't seen your chin rise yet in this entire interview And she's giving this woman what she wants to hear and she does the now she's going to roman Back to your flirting thing mark. She's going back to romance or she's back making hard eye contact And then I'm not going to hit everything I have here But there's internal conversation and then when she asked the question about Did you two notes? Yeah Sort of you know threats. No, I don't know exactly. What did they say? I'm going to come down there and kill you in that jail. What did they say exactly? I would That's osso's interrogators would poke and ask questions to make her story come apart because it's not sustainable And we know that's just not true But she does a great job by getting her to talk. She asked open-ended questions and she gives it to her Now we're back to the same thing. I'm telling you supplicant supplicant supplicant and what I find with this kind of people Is they're supplicant until they don't get what they want and then it's Explosive and it may not be explosive in this situation because they're minding their peas and queues And they're keenly aware they're in front of other people who are judging them And they're cautious about image and that kind of thing if you don't think she's cautious There's a video of her putting on makeup just before this just before an interview So she's Hyper conscious of her image when she's talking to these people So let's pay attention to her and think about what she might be like when she does come unbolted Because she doesn't get what she's been trying to do with all this little manipulation and plugging in Scott. What do you got? She's had the idea for this story and the concept for this But again, she hasn't said it out loud because as she's going through you can tell that she's Almost making up the things to put in there and you can tell by the way she's looking around the way she isn't Having said that but the way she isn't looking around too because when she looks down She's thinking we see her thinking about this whole thing and she goes through because she's not sure So she's not being very she's not very aggressive with with most anything she says But then she seems a little bit more reigned in In here because she's really not sure but at the same time It's just this contradiction of what's happening is what makes the behavior so odd Because she's trying to be forward about yeah, these were threats. This is what happened Um, and she says she has that little swallow right before she says two threats Which again that indicates it denotes that something's up there There's an issue there and the issue is she's lying at that point. We know now we didn't know that Then and all this thinking time where she does these little pauses That's supposed to solidify these as facts as she's thinking about through the but it's not She's actually making these things up the brain has always talked about the brain has to do three things before you say A lion has to paw before you tell a lionist it pauses and goes wait a minute We got things something up and it thinks up the lie and the third thing is it delivers the lie And so that's when you see all that weird behavior and those are the three most important things Can I can I rebrand your three things? Yeah, I wish you would those three things are a trigger There's a reason you have to lie and this is we've talked about this in liars loop You there's a trigger that forces you to lie fabricating me You got to go in your head and make this stuff up and then you've got to de-conflict before you pitch And that creates stress because now you're thinking oh, oh, what if I said something earlier? Oh, oh, what if this is recorded or oh, oh, what if they're doing voice stress? And especially if she went out and dug into some reed technique and that before she showed up for her interrogation So yeah, I mean there's all kinds of reasons she could be scrambling But yeah Right chase. What do you got? So we see when we're talking about coming up with the lie the fabrication I think there there could be a slash for rehearsal In that exact same spot. So if it's if it's been fabricated a couple hours ago, that's the that's the It's making it's I mean we're splitting hairs But in that moment, I think what we're seeing a lot with her is some kind of rehearsal Where she drew this really broad sketch in her head and said Oh, I don't need to do anymore. I'll I'm so smart I'm going to come up with the rest of this crap When we get into the the interview. It's not going to be a problem. Yeah for me chase That means she skipped de-conflict and didn't think about those pieces because when you create a lie If you're saying You create the lie and you de-conflict it to say well, who's going to believe I was miss georgia once Well, then you got to figure out how you tie that all together, right? And she missed that step because she's too smart for that That's right And I think once she gets asked the question There's an immediate shift to internal dialogue that's stronger than any of the other Videos that we've seen where her eyes are down and watching they were talking about using that as a charisma tool If you want to see a perfect example of this Google Jimmy Fallon when he had bill clinton On the show talking about Using the internet and missing emails and stuff like that when he's recalling these stories Don't do it now though wait till the video is over After you subscribe and all that stuff and look this up later Jimmy Fallon bill clinton take a look at that stuff and the the entire phrasing of this Just imagine yourself going through something if it was true It would be a lot less vague and nondescript And when people say And things of that nature if anyone uses that phrase it means I don't know anything else to throw on to this Sentence here. We're seeing a lot of that type of language here Mark. Yeah, so let's just check in with the forehead Still nothing happening. In fact, I think the only time I've seen anything happen in the forehead in these videos Was in the last one where she raised her eyebrows just slightly on the word time Putting some stress on that as well vocally, but you know in this one again, still nothing happening in the in the forehead really interesting Okay, I'm just going to talk about the para language the fillers now people often talk about fillers, you know And and you know, you shouldn't have fillers because she should have fillers It's normal language fillers are the things that give us time to think also gives the listener time to think There's nothing wrong with fillers. There's nothing whether those be words like sort of and you know And it's just it's often ways of fitting in You know little bits of language that helps somebody understand. Hey, I'm from your location I'm from your group bit like chase has been saying about up talk as well When you hear that kind of thing that's often about fitting in nothing wrong with that if you do that keep doing it If you do fillers keep doing it Here's the problem with her fillers. She speaks for about let's just say it's around about 13 seconds, I think and here are all the fillers. Um, um, there's a vocal click Um, uh-huh, you know, just sort of kind of thing Like that's a lot. Like what can you make out of that? Um, uh, uh-huh, you know, just sort of kind of thing Like it's nonsense. It's it's too much filler. So the brain is trying to Like just Fly and fill space and just do stuff until she can come up with something that she thinks is good And will hold water and she keeps missing and having to come up with another filler. And so what I've got here is Not confident. This is not confident at all about this statement whether it's she's missed out on the rehearsal part of it or you know, it's just not happened or I don't know what But it just stinks of not confidence and there's still even for somebody who is not confident Nothing happening in the forehead right now just Astonishing, I don't think I've ever seen anything You know as as bold as that in terms of no forehead Movement. Yeah, and I've I've walked down rodeo drive I have not seen that Tell me about the threats. Um, they were, um, two threats saying that, um On paper on paper And that I need to be careful when I come to arizona because You know just sort of a watch your back kind of thing. We good. Yeah There we go. It was who gave you those notes You don't have to give me a name. Just tell me how the node came to you There's only one way that it came to me could have come to me and it was through Um material that comes into our Without naming the person and material that comes into our cell And it was folded within this material And there's a you know, usually notes notes are passed all the time So there was one note folded up with my name on it and they're like, oh here jody you got a note And I'm like, oh cool, and I opened it up and and it just started shaking and it was like, oh gosh And you know, everyone's like, what did your note say? What did your note say? And then someone's like, what did your note say? I said, oh, just something stupid, you know And I just kind of didn't I just ripped it up. All right, I'll go first on this one Um, we see that face scratch. That's a classic adapter. That's one of those things where where people are talking They want to they want to push on their face or touch their face and it helps it helps relax them adapters The things we used to hear that built up tension or energy And her stress and so she scratches her face and that helps with that then when she we see her eyes widen when she says, um Without naming the person As in I you know, you know For example, if I was to say if we three if we four were in a group and there's somebody that we're talking to and I said I told and I was telling a story. I said one time I was in a situation where we started uh The person I was talking to started talking about dandruff And you all would know you because I think I've told I know I've told greg But I think I've told you guys that story too without me naming that situation You would know that situation if I said the person with dandruff She nods her head and does the the same thing So given this trying to give the interview the feeling of you know, like it's this really happened, you know I'm talking about you've been there um And then she's trying to look like these facts like these are facts like this actually happened That's why she starts adding all these qualifiers to help prop that thing up and then she Um Describes everything in detail, but what's on the note? She she talks about people. She talks about how you get those things in there She talks about everything but the contents of the note what the note actually says That was she's talking about the other people being there for that. That's sort of helping solidify her Um That this is a fact other people are there. I've got all these people to back me up We're not going to talk to any of those people. They're in prison You know, I'll interview them too No, she's just saying that to help add all that to help strengthen her her answer to that thing She knows she knows the story's lame And the the the lame rig gets the more she tries to prop it up and the more it heads right for the squatter So she she knows she's in trouble at this point chase. What do you got? well pretty similar here we're On top of what you said we're seeing her lips closed rapidly immediately after she finishes talking Especially in this video. So when you watch this video again, you'll see those lips She starts talking and right away the lips close again closing the mouth again And we see that she's more expressive here. She's more willing to be expressive It's not a story about an alibi per se But we hear her talk about oh, I regret tearing that no note up What do we say at the very beginning when she says I regret doing that? Or I am not proud of in in the second video third video we watch. I'm not proud of that or I regret that An alibi is about to come out of her mouth or some piece of evidence that she's presenting to you So you'll believe the story there and She's describing the experience in the scene in the most general and vague ways possible And I I saw the same eye opening thing that we would that scott you just mentioned And I think that's an attempt at suggesting some kind of familiarity as well and great Yeah, so guys this is more of what she does This is a method all of this stuff all that taffy pulling with the eyes where she looks away and looks back up She's trying to get good contact and the minute she knows she's got you now. She's going to shift gears Watch her she goes from here from doing insulator again spewing information about one of the ways it came to me Or could have come to me. Well, hold on. Is it came or could have come to you that way? She's doing language that has no meaning She's distancing from the answer and while she's doing it She's looking away and looking up once the woman starts playing into the questions and asking The question she wants answered watch what happens She's back now to romancing. She's back to making eye contact Watcher watches this thing progresses what she does. This is masterful Whether it's intentional manipulation or not or whether it's instinctive to the organism don't know But what she's doing I've seen it a million times. You're interrogating somebody and they're trying to get by with something This is the colombo move when you just go. Yeah throw them a little bit more line a little bit more line a little bit more line That's what's happening here. She's certain that she's getting by and you see you're looking For the first time mark her forehead rises just a touch when she illustrates something just a touch And then she touches her face. So she's illustrating and adapting She's coming out of that concrete thing. She's been doing and you start to notice her now pay attention to her As we leave this one and go into the next one watch what she's doing You're getting to see who she really is I think in that this is not an accident and this is systematic Watch it as we play through here. Uh, who's left mark? Yep, so listen I'm glad you guys could stick with it and make some notes on her because I made no notes on her because I just Couldn't listen anymore. It's just jibber jabber It is just a runaway train now of of just words tumbling over each other So I'm glad you got to an analyze that but I did I did Have a look at the interviewer Because that's what interest interested me before she throws that question She takes her hair and she puts it back there and this this for me is well, actually, I'm going to liken it to to Greg's Criminal with the with the big floppy hat on which is like Don't think I'm about to do some criminal act on you because look at my floppy hat It's it's what we call a a faint or Or a bluff or a distraction move or I know greg often calls it. I'm just a girl not saying. Hey look girls always do that What he's saying is is that it's a great distraction technique that's often used to say don't think I'm about to hit you With something really big because look I'm actually quite Good-looking and have a look at my hair and then here comes the mallet to the head Because what what the interviewer does here is to say Tell me about this But I don't need any names Which says well, you can't just go. Yeah, I can't really talk about that. Can't make many names. She's already Stopped her at the past there and gone. You're now going to have to go into a description And of course off she goes And it's it's almost nonsense. So, uh, you know well done there for for You know listening to that. I just couldn't Anymore if this were my interview I would have gone right i'm done Scott you talk to her greg you talk chase In in you go deal with her for a bit. I'm going for a drink because you know, I can't handle her Anymore there that's mine All right, it was a who gave you those notes You don't have to give me a name. Just tell me how the note came to you There's only one way that it came to me could have come to me and it was through material that comes into our Without naming the person and material that comes into our cell And it was folded within this material Okay, and there's you know, usually notes notes are passed all the time So there was one note folded up with my name on it and they're like, oh here jody you got a note And I'm like, oh cool and I opened it up and and it just started shaking and it was like, oh gosh And you know, everyone's like, what did your note say? What did your note say? And then someone's like, what did your note say? I said, that was just something stupid, you know, and I just kind of didn't I just ripped it up We good. Yep. Yeah You ripped it up. Yes, didn't you think it might be important to save it to show The cops and the detectives. In fact, I am still being threatened by these two people who allegedly Committed this crime. Yes, and um And I absolutely regret that these notes came within days of my arrest And I think still that I was just very scared for my family And it's only now that I'm speaking out about this because I just need to have faith that The lord is not going to put them in harm's way because I decided to to do Obviously a little late, but I decided to do the right thing and and tell what I knew because by You know, the reason I'm sitting here is because I didn't do the right thing Is because I didn't go to the police right away. I didn't call 9-1-1 right away, you know I didn't I didn't go to a neighbor's house Mark, you want to go first? Yeah, so the first thing I really really love is is about halfway through the incredulity in the interviewers eyes Is she really going that way? Is like is that is this really what's happening right now? It's just brilliant. She's just genius the other thing I I love in this one is when Areas kind of just goes back in a chair wide-eyed and goes. Yes Yes, like I knew I should have done brilliant brilliant idea. I knew I should have done that I knew I should again just trying to make a connection with her just trying to make a connection and go That is brilliant. I should have done that. I knew at the time I was thinking the way you're thinking but gosh not quite like you're smart I'm smart. I'm not quite as smart as you right now, but we're both smart So always trying to play and make those connections Then we get we get these eyes down But she keeps unlocking eye contact on the things she really wants that interviewer and the audience to really know Which is scared for my family the idea of faith The lord the right thing says it twice again and locks eye contact the right thing Police right away. So she's now locking eye contact to try and enforce Some ideas, especially this idea of a of a of a higher power You know and and doing the right thing and the only reason that she's there is because she did the wrong thing but now she's in fear for her family's life because she's doing the right thing and She has faith that god would not punish the repentant and the righteous And that ultimately is what she's trying to do there is to say i'm being repentant And righteous now and therefore my faith is in god that he would never punish that and therefore anybody Who is you know believing in god or religious in that way You wouldn't punish me either because this is now You know the work of god repentance and righteousness. It's extraordinary. It's it's kind of brilliant But again the interviewer quite rightly is there incredulous at the angle that she's taking on this what a what a performance what a performance chase. What do you got? Yeah, so I think we're seeing this again. She's saying the words and and I regret And what comes right after that came within a few days after my arrest So there's I regret or I'm ashamed of or I'm embarrassed about Let me give you some evidence And I'm embarrassed about it But there's some evidence because it has to be true if I'm making some kind of confession of personal Admission here and opening up to you So this whole thing is Evidence management perception management and story management is all we're seeing here And in reality, I decided to do the right things a little bit late Let's think about this. It's the same story. She did with calling the police after she Encountered the saw these people attack the people Attack she didn't call the police right away. She got the letter. She didn't call the police right away So we're seeing a very similar storyline And if you watch the last one second of the video the last one second You'll see doopers delight The left side of her face tightens up the cheeks raise up and the lower eyelids raise And it is the quickest micro expression. I've ever I think I've ever seen Analyzing a video I watched it a few times and I had my iPad Uh, just like three inches from my face trying to watch it, but it's there and She fits the sociopath criteria perfectly Except for one thing Past behavior beyond the age of 15 younger than younger than the age of 15 She hits all of these major indicators from the dsm 5 which is the psychology manual to diagnose a mental disorder past behavior before this incident unless there's something we Drastic that we don't know about yet. She fits all of that and maybe That shows us a weakness in the dsm in the diagnostic manual for psychology But maybe this thing is some Thing that's going to show us that there's something else going on which I think is borderline personality disorder again I'm not making a diagnosis nor am I qualified to do so But I'll leave it at that and Greg Yeah, so here she's closing the loop. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes in this case I think she has made contact and she thinks this woman has bought into her She's reeling her hands what she thinks now If she thinks that she clearly cannot read body language because I agree with you mark right there Disbelief is all over her face like really this is what you got But she runs down this whole thing and then she does something I could not have imagined possible she went from this Chaff and redirect and all this to holy ground now She's become what I call a stancer what we call a stancer in our true crime workshop case It's remember stancer is a person who's going to take a holy ground stance His god is my witness. I didn't do that boom boom boom. She takes holy ground and she comes up So now she's used stancer transfer romancer She's used insulator. She hasn't used prancer yet, but she'll figure that one out yet I'm sure because she's got lots of strategies up in that head of hers You notice that this is really what I think you're seeing she does an eye block And then makes eye contact again. That's the connection She thinks now I've got this woman and again I think she's missing that this woman doesn't believe her story But she believes that she's falling for it because it worked for her so many times before And what an organ of all of us every one of us talking to you and you included Are simply a creation of things that have been successful in the past If you get your knuckles wrapped enough times you don't do things unless you are into having your knuckles wrapped But if you are rewarded for something like you get candy every time you do something It just becomes part of your repertoire and it compounds and compounds and compounds And it chases point sometimes it compounds in very negative ways and into pathologies that Maybe you wouldn't even know what all of them are but we talk about borderline personalities Those are close to pathologies and those kinds of things So we can't diagnose her but what we can say is I've talked to a lot of people like her in my past And they always try something like this until you get them the point where they go you lie to me once you You bust them and you tell them something and then you use what they tell you against them They get really really angry usually afterward So that's what i'm seeing here. And then uh, who's next is scott me So so what i'm getting out of this is as she's going along as she's trying as she Tries to keep up with these people who interview her. She tries to become that person. She reflects back She's using the classic Yes, and and that's what you do in improv no matter what somebody says Yes, and and you add something to it right out of the gate. She says that as part of her as part of her first answer Yes, and she says yes, yes, but then yes, and and then she starts creating again This story going along you all I've covered most just about everything I've got Um, but then she but then again the classic of falling back on religion like mark was talking about Just goes right back in now. Don't get me wrong. I like I always say I I believe in god. We're very tight, you know And jesus loves you and i'm his favorite And so as we so as I tell you about this that's that's where i'm sitting on it So she goes as she goes in it's it's the it's the classic I know I did wrong like exactly what you're saying mark. I know I did wrong But now I should be forgiven because I realized my Transgression, I know what I've done. I see what's happened here That's the classic you sin and then you pay the pennants for for that sin There's what's going on. She's saying so i'm paying that now because and like it's not going to be any big deal That's why i'm in trouble. Shoot. They're going to figure it out because I just did this over here It's no big deal. That's actually what I did not that big a deal when it's actually I've got a shot getting out of there. You know, we know that now But even then you can see it on her. She's she's really not that sure but man She's trying to sell that she's going to get out But that's where we're ending up and she's showing it's the classic I've learned my lesson and i'm not going to do that anymore because I am right and I am a good person I just did this one thing wrong over here So that's what I got Yeah, I think you guys what you just said ties together nicely because what chase is saying She's trading guilt, you know, she's trading down. She's giving you less something less guiltful And then she's trading it off saying look, I did make a mistake and and and and then giving you that guilt and saying My family doesn't deserve to be punished for this And we'll hear that again later Yeah, and if if you're at all interested in what greg was talking about for what worked for somebody in the past And this is how all of our habits are formed whether or not you want to go to the gym more often or eat healthier All of those things it happens right around this spot right here in the brain There's a little spot called the nucleus Acumbens and the nucleus accumbens is a dopamine Memorizer it says I did this before it worked out and I got some dopamine from that So i'm going to force the brain to do that again And it runs dopamine through a channel right here Called the ventral tegmental pathway or the ventral tegmental area And that goes back and forth in the limbic system and forces a cycle That Even at the age of eight or nine if a behavior worked you're more likely to repeat it even at the age of 55 Sitting in an interrogation room You'll do the same thing that worked for you when you were young because of that little spot Called the nucleus Acumbens if you want to go look it up and it doesn't matter whether that was a bad or a good thing Depends on whether you perceived it as a good thing right and that's why we love our phones so much Because we get that feeling that's searching out finding the thing and we keep going back to it and going back to it And go back to it the like thing all that stuff is based on what chase was just talking about It's that if you're into that kind of thing again, you have google that's a fantastic Go like what we're talking about and you'll get a reward You ripped it up Yes, didn't you think it might be important to save it to show The cops and the detectives in fact, I am still being threatened by these two people who allegedly Committed this crime. Yes, and And I absolutely regret that these notes came within days of my arrest And I think still that I was just very scared for my family And it's only now that I'm speaking out about this because I just need to have faith that The lord is not going to put them in harm's way because I decided to to do Obviously a little late, but I decided to do the right thing and and tell what I knew because by You know the reason I'm sitting here is because I didn't do the right thing Is because I didn't go to the police right away. I didn't call 911 right away. You know I didn't I didn't go to a neighbor's house All right, we good. Yep. Yeah Why didn't you apologize to them? I did apologize to them. You never said. I'm sorry I said that I'm sorry that I'll never be able to make up for what I did And that I can never replace their loss But you didn't use the word. I'm sorry. Well, then I'm sorry. I didn't say that because certainly I am sorry I think in a sense the words. I'm sorry just seem Meaningless especially since nobody believes what I'm saying anyway You said it right there. No one believes a word out of your mouth. Why do you keep talking? Well, um, because I know that I'm not just I've lied before that doesn't mean that I'm a liar by definition by character What do you think of this jury? It's pretty clear. They don't think too much of you I wonder what you think of them. Um I don't know. I feel I feel a little betrayed by them. I don't dislike them. I just Was really hoping that they would see things for what they are and I don't feel that they did To a lot of people they think this switch from I want to die to now I want to live is just another lie from jody areas Well, I don't know what that means Was I lying when I said I want to die or was I lying when I say please spare my life, you know Um, whatever happens. I'm just going to take it and deal with it You said today you want to give travis's family closure You know they want you dead. So why don't you give them that closure? Well What do you mean by that? Why don't I kill myself? Is that what you're asking? No? Why don't you accept the fate of the death penalty if you know, that's what they want If you truly care about their closure well I've caused them a lot of pain. I've caused my family a lot of pain And I think that by asking for death. I'm only going to cause more pain to my family if you were on that jury And you had heard what they have heard Would you kill you? I don't believe in capital punishment So the answer would be no for now areas is sticking by that story the jury didn't buy That she's an abused woman who killed in self-defense when alexander lunged at her from his shower So you really are never going to tell the truth about what went down in that bathroom? I don't know what you mean by that because I've told the truth Okay, I didn't know that you were a hater when you came to interview me And that was about as angry as arias got she stayed composed throughout if not occasionally smug That was kind of long. So why don't we just throw it around the room and kind of just discuss it openly? What we sell them what we think All right, uh mark, why don't you start us off? Yeah, so um negotiating constantly and negotiating around ideas Well, so here's the main negotiation there Well was was the thing I said the truth a lie was the lie that I said now the truth So here's what society does society makes a decision around what truth and lies are now that doesn't mean Is is correct because you'll go to another Society and they'll think the truth that that society has is a lie But everybody who decides to be in one society signs up to the consistent Idea of the truth and the lies What she does is mess around with that and say my truth might be lies and my lies might be truth And they're going to change second to second. So that is what we call Antisocial and from that very moment what I would suggest is it's very clear you now have somebody With an antisocial disorder Because if you're not prepared to say that something is true And something is a lie And keep it solid enough so others could join in with you on that Then you can't be a part of society. You don't have a brain that's going to work well It's always going to be an outsider And if you don't if you're not able to see that for yourself You're going to have an antisocial disorder and you're not going to know So the rest of the universe the rest of the world Won't work like you work and you might start attacking it in quite an aggressive way So there there that's what I got to say. It's it's clear from that antisocial behavioral disorder All right, greg. What do you think? Yeah, so let's just start with the basic definition of liar Because she's not one she told us Hold on one second. I'll just we'll post this up. We'll put it up It's a basic definition and it simply says one who tells lies Well, I told lies, but I'm not a liar. Well, what exactly are you and to your point mark She's going to undermine the very foundation of how we define what something is She is a in this alone. She's a show horse for liars She is probably the best I've ever seen and I'm going to run through it again Stancer take holy ground stand up and make a hard statement that I support this and I support that I don't believe in the death penalty. I'm a good person. So never mind. It applies to me Transur, you know, in this case, she breaks eye contact tries to get away for a minute. That's her escape. It doesn't work She goes to romance or she tries to connect him a little bit. That doesn't work She chaffs and redirects and starts puking information with no value And then finally she wraps it all up by using circular logic to take you off of whatever it is And if you don't understand the concept of circular logic if a then b then c then d then e then f if a then a Oh, wait, wait. No, if b then a or they just change the rules of the conversation as they go And there's no logic to it If you're talking to somebody and you feel like What the hell are we talking about? You're probably talking to somebody who's using circular logic and it's a great Deceptive technique that a lot of people use. She's a show horse for liars in this case for me She she illustrates everything I think of liars Chase, what do you got? We have uh transfer prancer donner and blitzon And santa I think yeah, and all of them are using digital flexion Which I knew the page we're seeing in particular here Is that if you watch this video and then just just drag the slider back and watch the other video of her That's different people. Those are two completely different people there Because in this little section one the interviewer is kind of an And he's looking at her with contempt. He's speaking with contempt and she's kind of She can't match that but she matches the speed the cadence and tone of what he's saying and she's doing something called I think I call this social lawyering Where she's negotiating and and saying well this doesn't mean this unless this So saying if you believe this then you have to believe this other idea And you can hear this little innocence regression, but she's still matching she starts all of her answers almost with the word well And then you'll hear the answer and the well Is probably something she learned from a relative a teacher But it's also a device to buy some time while you see her eyes go down. She's rehearsing what she's going to say scott All right, I think what's happening here I don't think she's smart enough to understand this guy's being is is trying to turn the heat up on her And I think she's just answering the questions and being because if he didn't have that look on his face And he didn't have that tone of in his voice She would realize what's going on if he came in frown and was like in an attack mode But going back from the first video all she's doing is reflecting back what she's saying and hearing And that's what she's doing. I don't think she's smart enough to realize this guy's trying He's he's poking our try to get her to get p. O'd So I think that's because when they talk about she says you mean to kill myself It's uh, I'd be like, what are you talking about me? You want me to kill myself? We wouldn't nobody would answer it like that. Nobody but she's not she's not paying attention with the front part of her brain She's paying attention to the to the reflective She's paying attention to her mirror neurons what she's seeing what's what's she's not paying attention to those obviously But she's all she's doing just reflecting what she's seeing and hearing from tone and the way it looks That's that's what I'm seeing here because nothing she really says Is valid or has any validity to it whatsoever? It's just all whatever she thinks he wants to hear And and you're right chase. It's a different person. We're looking at a completely entirely different person here It's got your hater. Yeah where it's bizarre and you're a hater Yeah, she doesn't realize this guy is trying to heat her up. That's that's the that's the scary part at that point that shows For me it shows so how how smart she isn't even though she thinks really I think some of that as her she may realize it but I think it's overlapped by her enjoyment of the attention and And celebrity that she's experiencing with all that makes sense She's still getting what she needs in that remember. We're just talking about this that layering She's getting that dopamine reward because she's working whatever it is She's doing and that channel is getting it She's starting to get hot with him right there when she said, I know you're a hater That's her trying to be snarky and she's getting a reward for that. I'm guaranteeing you that the guy she Allegedly or was convicted of stabbing 20 plus times cutting his throat and shooting him Probably saw her wind up a little bit like that before She went absolutely bonkers and went from supplicant to explosive so Yeah, he was trying to break up with her. Isn't that right? You know what the story was? Well, I mean the story is really complex guys who know the real story Do you want to do a four line narrative in in the comments? That'd be a great place for it because I think she flew somewhere rented a car bought a bunch of gas So you couldn't tell that she was driving cross-country by credit card records. She's all kinds of stuff She did like I heard a really great line from a prosecutor last night. She did all the true crime stuff, right? She just didn't do the crime right right Why didn't you apologize to them? I did apologize to them. You never said i'm sorry I said that i'm sorry that i'll never be able to make up for what I did And that I can never replace their loss But you didn't use the word i'm sorry Well, then I'm sorry. I didn't say that because certainly I am sorry. I think in a sense the words i'm sorry just seemed Meaningless especially since nobody believes what I'm saying anyway You said it right there. No one believes a word out of your mouth. Why do you keep talking? Well, um, because I know that I'm not just I've lied before that doesn't mean that I'm a liar by definition by character What do you think of this jury? It's pretty clear. They don't think too much of you I wonder what you think of them I don't know I feel I feel a little betrayed by them. I don't dislike them I just Was really hoping that they would see things for what they are and I don't feel that they did To a lot of people they think this switch from I want to die to now I want to live is just another life from jody areas well I don't know what that means Was I lying when I said I want to die or was I lying when I say please spare my life, you know Um Whatever happens. I'm just going to take it and deal with it You said today you want to give travis's family closure You know, they want you dead. So why don't you give them that closure? Well What do you mean by that? Why don't I kill myself? Is that what you're asking? No, why don't you accept the fate of the death penalty if you know, that's what they want If you truly care about their closure well I've caused them a lot of pain. I've caused my family a lot of pain And I think that by asking for death. I'm only going to cause more pain to my family If you were on that jury and you had heard what they have heard Would you kill you? I don't believe in capital punishment So the answer would be no for now areas is sticking by that story the jury didn't buy That she's an abused woman who killed in self-defense when alexander lunged at her from his shower So you really are never going to tell the truth about what went down in that bathroom? I don't know what you mean by that because I've told the truth Okay, I didn't know that you were a hater when you came to interview me And that was about as angry as arias got she stayed composed throughout if not occasionally smug Okay, we're good. Yeah Yes, that's really all I need it Sorry, don't roll the tape yet Hi No, I don't think that was a relationship ever violent um That's another question All right chase. What do you got? I think no matter what if we were to just distill body language down Into ridiculous simple levels to where I could write a body language book on a post-it note It would be the bodies either closing or opening The bigger than the post-it note though But that's it The body's either closing or opening and we can look at it through that lens Especially in the beginning if i'm teaching you body language and you're at home You got to interview a babysitter. You got to interview somebody who's going to watch your kids or somebody at work And the first piece of advice I would give you is to watch if the body is Getting closer together or opening back up and we see some of that here But before that we see this this makeup scene where she's doing her makeup And I think that really illustrates some of the personality we're talking about With this personality disorder that she may or may not have Of just this addiction to the limelight attention affection And a feeling of some kind of importance And I'll give you one thing to to as just a parting note here That the mask that a person wears is usually the opposite of whatever they're most ashamed of From childhood Scott All right This is this is everything we've been talking about Every every bit we've been talking about she's worried about the cameras She's trying to again imitate these people or reflect back What she's seeing and hearing At the end and you cut you've covered most everything you guys cover most everything It's that's I got nothing after that mark. What do you got? Yeah, just nice to see, you know, there's delicate self-soothers There as she hears this question that she doesn't want to answer and then you'll see the the leg moving up and down in a repetitive way And again, just self-soothers there is underneath That exterior that she's putting forward, which you know has no head movement and and is able to mirror That external world really quite well inside that there's some concern and and anxiety there Maybe very specifically around this question, but but it's there Greg, what do you got? Yeah guys The thing I always tell you if you feel really good in someone's presence and really wonder why when they leave It's because you're being worked. She's a beautiful example of how people work you She's looking for think about neurons and receptors or any kind of any kind of enzyme or peptide and how it bonds to something Or any kind of plug and receiver and and receptacle What she's doing is looking for places and chase. I think you're dead on to the thing about You know when you're a kid you're trying to fix all of that stuff from when you're a child What she's doing is trying to find what it is you need and plug into it And she does it instinctively. I think I don't think she's sitting there brilliantly going Yes, yes, I don't think that's her I think she just instinctively does now why? Smarter people in me have written many books about why people turn out this way So go read those books and try to figure out why but somewhere in her past There's been this Something that caused her survival of organism to learn to be able to do this Some of it may be biological some of it may be You know based on on nurture But she is masterful and if you ever want to know if you're being worked watch this If a person can change gears Between people they're talking to and become what that person needs You need to be cautious with that person doesn't mean that they're evil or doing anything wrong Some people do it as a sales technique or that but a person who does it every turn in their life Is a dangerous person not because they're going to do something to you but because they can That's the only reason I mention it pay attention There are plenty of good people who can mold and morph and chameleon like move from people from place to place It's a skill we're taught as interrogators But I would say I taught a lot of interrogators too bad. She's a bad person She could have been a great interrogator using those skills and being able to figure out what a person needed to talk And get into trust But that's how these people work People who are broken have some of the same skills as people who don't and hers are good and instinctive That's what I believe. Yeah, I think she's unconsciously competent in all of these skills that we're talking about Yeah, well put well put. Okay. Great. Great person. Again, please subscribe I just hit that little red thing down there and hit like as well And uh, that's a little bit longer than usual, but here we go. There's nothing we can I'll see you guys next time Thanks. Thank you