 We can fit on that. Thanks for coming along. I'm Rachel Lawson. I'm from Lansow upp in the UK in Norfolk. I want to talk today, about something that Dries mentioned this morning, was around recognising both achievements and contributions and how we can do that But on websites and what there is to kind of record that type of thing. So, something that's really important to me is recognising that every single day of our lives is a day of learning. y nicwyr sy'n fyoed, sy'n gweithio a'u begynig iawn yn ei hyn o gobod hynny yn ôl yn y gweithio'r gweithio meddwl, mewn cyfaciliad , cymdeithasol y dyma, gydaad hon o'r lleol. Mae'r llunio'r llunio'r llunio yw dyma. Debygwch mynd eich hun o'r llunio a cwpio ar ymgyrch. Mae'r rhagwr ystod ydw i. Ond oed y gallwn i'r grann, dwi'n ddsylu ar hynny. Dysgwyddi'r gofio'r ysgol? Mae'r gofio ymlaen. Oes y gallai gweithio yma. Felly, rwy'n gweithio... Yn ymlaen y byddai ymlaen yn cynnig? Rwy'n gweithio? Felly, mae'r gofio eich gofio? Roedd. Felly, ond, dwi'n gweld ar gyfer y gweithio. Mae'r hoffi'r hoffi am y gwaith o'r ysgol, ond mae'r hoffi eich gofio yma. I was going up things like scouts guides, lots of badgers and I used to teach others IT. That was my first job. I used to teach IT to school kids which was really good fun. dogs, a in fact putting them together and teaching IT and ffending, an archery and so on. Putting them together is pretty much how I run projects nowadays, and meetings nowadays, herding cats at Taelio. Lot of things through my career have been relevant. I used to work in Whitehall, used to have a defence job, some of that's useful with I was once, believe it or not, a Microsoft certified systems engineer. I actually used to build Windows servers all across Europe. I can't remember the last time I used Windows now. But it's still relevant. It's still relevant. It's all the same stuff. So I've got all those things. I've got some qualifications. I couldn't tell you where the certificates are now. From my qualifications I got at school. I couldn't tell you how to determine if my MCSE status is still relevant. Evidence is important. So it's not just saying you've done something. It's being able to show it as well. And have that issuing organisation be that the O-level certificates I got at school were issued by the certification authority who did that. They're important and their reputation is important to show that my certificate is real and valuable, etc. So there has to be that evidence. And at the moment for me all the evidence is scattered across in a fairly random way. I've got some ITIL qualifications. I've got some agile qualifications. And they're not really in one place. I have some certificates in a book because I used to work in pharmaceuticals and you have to have a training manual type thing. So I need to demonstrate that to people like yourselves. And some organisations do that and they make it very possible to see what you've done. So for example the Scouting Association and my mum went looking. She could only find some query forms for my brother unfortunately. But they're extremely cute. But as you can see if you were to walk into the environment of a Cub Scout pack, is it a pack? Then it's very obvious who's done all the, who's the qualified, who's the knowledgeable, who's the most able Cub Scout there. Quite how my brother got a first aid badge though I've no idea because he faints it's out of blood. There are some slight equivalents in Drupal as well. So we have quite a popular thing about sticking badges all over laptops. This is mine currently I think. I might have stuck some more on since then. However not all of them are completely real. I went out and just to make a demonstration I've actually got a smack sticker on the back of this laptop today. I don't know, smacked, never claimed to. But I can use a sticker so it's kind of false. So unless you can trace it back it kind of doesn't work. So you need that ability to trace back with these things. So someone needs to control these signs of authority. Now there are some tools that allow that to happen in a digital world. One that's really coming up at the moment and being used by a lot of organisations. Mizzler Open Badges apparently they're now recording 14,000 different organisations issuing their badges which I was just amazed at. That's already within really basically a few months. So that's just wonderful. It basically works in a few different ways. It's a standard for showing evidence of achievement. It's distributed, it's federated. It's only a standard, it's not a centralised thing. So websites or organisations can implement the components that they want to implement which is really useful. And actually the users of the system can then choose which bits they want to do too which is quite nice. So you can add issue badges to demonstrate that somebody has achieved something so I can see someone from my career in the audience at the moment. And they do their certifications so they would be able to issue a badge, some evidence on there. Then you can have websites that display a person's badges that they've earned. Both maybe that they've earned on their own website but also ones from other organisations as well. Because there is the concept of a backpack and it's possible with the toolset that Mozilla Open Badges provides to one you've been issued a badge on one website to put it into a backpack. Mozilla operate one themselves obviously. Put it into a backpack to keep all of your badges together. They still hold a link back to where they originally came from so you can trace back and find out who this person who issued the badge was. So there is some level of authenticity to it which is good but basically you've got one place where you can store them and as a user you can manage them. So website can issue badges and it can also display badges that a user has chosen and it's very important that it's chosen to display. So if I have a quick look I was playing around earlier with some badges so I can put badges into collections and make some collections public and then people can see those from there. I'll come back to that later. This is about as technological as I'm going to get really. The badges aren't complicated. This isn't something that requires huge amounts of computing effort to deal with. The badges are literally a ping. They have to be a ping currently. And some JSON. Here's an example. This won't actually work. But there's some unique information in there to help it with authenticity. There's the description field which allows us to say what this badge means, what this person has achieved by doing this. And then there's a criteria field which shows what did they have to pass. I think in the case of, I think that would be a test of some description. And you could link to the test so people could see this person must know this list of things. So I only know this because a couple of years ago I got approached by Cardiff University to upgrade a website that I'd worked on in the past as well. And they've got this ace learning technologist at Cardiff University, Carl Luke, who came to me and said, I've heard of this thing called Mozilla Open Badgers and we'd like to implement it on the website. So we kind of did straight away because it was actually much easier than I thought it was going to be. Which is nice. So we built this website for pain professionals, healthcare professionals that are interested in pain. I have a special interest in pain. I've got lots of information on there. They can do CPD courses. When they complete the CPD courses they can be issued badges. Okay? Healthcare professionals have to do so many hours of CPD a year and they have to have evidence of that. And they have to do learning reflections upon it and all sorts of things. So a course would look kind of going down, describing the course. And it kind of just kind of all sorts of things on the screen and they have to go through various places. That video is not working too well is it? And they would kind of do a quiz and then they would have to do learning reflections once they've completed the quiz. Okay? So with that course we then looked at how we were going to implement the open badge software to do that. And the first thing we needed to do was to explain to people why they've been issued these badges. And I think that's really important. You can't just dive in and do something without explaining it. Which seemed a fairly sensible thing to do. So on a user's account they would have their usual professional information which all other users could see within the website. And they would also have badges. So we would be able to see the badges and achievements that this user, my test user really here, has achieved in this course. I've only got one. Oh well. The way it goes sometimes. But basically you have a list of badges. Now what we can do is because we're using the open badge software we can share badges that are available on our website. But it's also badges that this user via their email address have earned elsewhere. Okay? So we have a situation where if this person is a surgeon they would have done things more than just on our website but on other websites in the future as well. And Cardiff University are looking to use this elsewhere too, which is really great. So in this example I've already, those two badges that you saw earlier that I put in that backpack are appearing here. Okay? So we're searching through the Mozilla backpack and pulling out the things for that user. Okay? So I can add a badge so I could click on the badge that I earned here and the Mozilla backpack would recognise me via my email address. It would say do you want to accept this badge and put it into your backpack? You'd say yes and it would go. Okay? And then that would add to what we were seeing earlier. Okay? So pretty much that's it in terms of what you have to do as a user. Okay? The website owner can then actually interrogate all that and can find out much more about the people who the badges and the achievements that they've earned outside of their own website. Okay? So you can look and say okay this user's on our website has done this list of half a dozen things. On these other websites they've also done all these things. You can use that as useful information. If you think back to Driza's keynote this morning he was looking to expand the knowledge of how people contribute to Drupal.org and this is kind of a similar thing. So to build what we did there we used the achievements module which is already in Drupal.org which does actually the vast majority of the work. We implemented certain one-off badges. We defined either events happening in the system so hooks within Drupal 7. So you just wait for a hook to happen, check some criteria that you want to check, issue a badge. It's actually pretty easy to do. And then also what you could do is count. So within the website we have a pain management forum type situation. So what we can do is we can watch for people answering questions within the forum. And when they've answered 10 questions or something useful that people like, issue them a badge. You're a person who's really useful for engaging within that community. So it's not just somebody completing CPD, it's people doing other things as well. And anything that you can work and count on the website you can then make a hook that will actually issue an achievement. And therefore, with the AMOBB module, if I move on, you can export those achievements as badges that Mozilla will understand. It's not completely out of the box. You have to mess about a little bit with various patches, some of which I've done, some of which other people have done to make it actually work. But it does work and it does produce badges and achievements and the JSON that Mozilla expects to find and it does actually do the job. And there's not a lot of coding involved. Having said that, you don't have to use that method. You don't have to use achievements. You don't have to use AMOBB, which are two contract modules. You could, I think, certainly in Drupal A, you could do that, all that work, without installing any contract modules. You could do it with a view. As long as you can get JSON out of a view, as long as you can send the things, a bit of JavaScript, actually you could do all that with core. And actually, I think if I was redoing this project now, knowing more about core as I learned my way thing, I think that's actually what I would do. It would be my personal choice now. Views, output some JSON, have some nice pings ready, draw some nice badges. That's the hard bit. That's the case to you. But what about you and I? What about how we could use something similar? Being able to have a situation where achievements are recognised in a way that you can display, not just on Drupal.org profile, but elsewhere. I don't know, LinkedIn, if you like. I'm actually coming off LinkedIn, but that's another matter. You could display them anyway. You could display them within your... If you've got a large Drupal dev community and you wish to display the badges, you could implement your website, your internet as a displayer. Bang, people's badges appear from their Drupal.org profile. Other organisations, as I mentioned earlier about the certifications at Acria, could show their badges on the Drupal.org profile. What's that? Anybody recognise it? Yay! I'm so glad someone did. The Drupal Association is all about getting that global open source community together and helping them build and promote Drupal. If we can help them do that by making them feel recognised, not just through commits, not just through answering questions in IRC, not just through answering issues, not just through all of the other things that actually happen on the Drupal.org website. If we could start to show recognition on the Drupal.org profile for things that have come from elsewhere, then we can really bring the community together. I'm wearing this T-shirt today from the London Drupal Con a couple of years ago because it's really important to me. When I first got into Drupal, the fact that I volunteered at Drupal Con London for me was massive. It changed my ability to get into the community. I didn't know anyone. I met people. I got to know people. It helped me get started. It was a big deal. There's very little way for people at the Drupal Con London to send recognition onto my Drupal.org profile that I did that. If Drupal Con London, as part of the community, was able to do that, we'd have a really powerful system and federate away Drupal Association having to do everything. Let other organisations be able to push things onto that Drupal.org profile. That is what I really think would be really useful about open badges because we can do it in a really wonderfully managed way. I don't want to talk about how your Drupal.org profile looks. The main reason I don't want to do that is because Danny and a load of other people have been doing a load of things with Drupal.org profiles recently, particularly from how it looks. They have a session in here next, all about it, as I understand. I'm going to stay, definitely. That's my old profile. I'm sure you're going to make it beautiful, apart from the picture anyway. It's working on that and how it looks. Personally, I don't really care, but I do care where the information comes from. I really, really want to make that a wider group of people than just the Drupal Association because they can only do so much. Much of your value to the Drupal organisation, to the Drupal community, your value is more than what you do on Drupal.org. You go to camps, you go to camps and you speak, you go to camps and you volunteer, you go to camps and you help out, you mentor. You sit in IRC, you sit in Drupal UK IRC. It's more than answering questions. It's about cheering people up when they're having a really rubbish day, which seems to happen occasionally. That is part of the community and we need to recognise that and we need more than just Drupal.org to achieve that. I'm going to come back to a couple of things. Do you remember when I showed up my brother's cup of uniform? It was trying to look for the equivalents. You could probably think of a few organisations within the Drupal community that are relevant and you would think they are the people that can say what's right and what's wrong. Acria certification programme. I really, really, really want when you pass an Acria certification, I really want a badge on my Drupal.org profile. But I'll be honest, I don't just want Acria to have the capability to do that. I don't want us to change Drupal.org specifically to allow Acria, no offence, to do that. I want other organisations who might want to do certification. I don't know, Llywla Bart, that type of thing. I think they had a goat one time, didn't they? Seem to remember doing some certificates. I want a few people because I think that's good for the community to have that diversity. I want Drupal camps. Drupal camps, if someone's organised a Drupal camp, they've got some people to really commit to speak, to volunteer, etc. That's a big deal and we need to recognise that and we can't expect the people at Drupal Association to start creating code every time somebody wants a badge just for a speaker at Drupal Camp Yorkshire. As much as Yorkshire is very important to me. We could be asking a bit of Drupal.org. Open badges means it can just happen. Okay, I'm actually going slightly quicker than I thought. What I wanted to do is actually spend a bit of time thinking about... I do want this to be a conversation, hence the reason I asked some questions earlier because I'm going to get started in a minute. I want to be a conversation about open badges and how we could use that and what considerations there might be to actually make it happen. From a technical point of view, I don't think there's actually a lot of work. I think largely it's all of the issues around that, so we'll have a look at that in a moment. But what I wanted to do is come back to our people and see what they felt. JP, I'm picking on you again. You've had a bit of a think about your previous job. What was it, your first job? So what's still relevant about that today? Because I'll guarantee there'll be something. Okay, so it was a project management thing that you still do today. That's cool. What was the job again? Sorry, thanks. You're going to tell me about backups in a minute, aren't you? Well, that's why we have the insurance. For me, there's a lesson that you can make mistakes. Brilliant. That's absolutely true. That is a really good one, actually. It's clearly stuck with you. I think we've lost someone, haven't we, sir? Okay, cool. I really want to make this a conversation because that's what it says on the title. I really want to ask some questions. Is there anything about open badges in particular, or about how it can be in the community that might get us started? I've got some questions, if not, but is there any questions on what I've said that might get us going? So you were talking about the Scout Association earlier, and mentioning Acwi afterwards, but shouldn't that be like the Drupal Association role, hosting a backpack for the Drupal community? I mean, would that be the way to go to kind of dissociate with? Absolutely. I think what I was trying to say was, let me get this right, we have a situation where someone's learning, someone's involvement in growing up and learning is not just their Scout Association. Scout Association is one provider of recognition upon a person. So who with the equivalence of the Scout Association for a person growing up is more, isn't just the Drupal Association, they're a displayer of things and that they do recognise people, but also other people do as well. So I think what I'm trying to say is that the Drupal Association should definitely be issuing badges and they will have some things that they can issue badges for. So, for example, we should, in theory, be able to notice when people first start committing into Drupal 8. I mean, we had people stand up, so we all had to stand up during the keynote if we'd committed anything into Drupal 8. Oh, sorry, not personally committed, but submitted some patches that were then committed into Drupal 8. So stand up. OK, we should be able to automatically do that and issue a badge the first time that you do that. That's the Drupal Association badge to issue and one that they would also want to display. We then got other organisations that would want to recognise people. Aquarius 1 and equally Lullabyr 4 Kitchen, any of the other organisations that really want to do that. And the thing we've recognised in someone is the bonus from that. If you issue recognition to someone, it improves their profile a little bit. OK, but it doesn't just improve their profile. If that person is good, it also improves the profile of the issuer because they recognise that person. OK, so if you wish to get into, if you wish to increase your profile of your courses, your certification in Aquarius or anybody else who wish to do that, then it's a good thing to be able to do that because you will find people like yourself who really, really know Drupal very well. A lot of people in here. Then by doing that recognition and saying, yeah, this person is good. Actually, it improves your own reputation as well because you're recognising that. It's a two-way thing, and it's good for both sides of that recognition. Sorry, I didn't mean to say that Aquarius was the overarching knowledge on this. I was trying to say it's one of them, but it's one that's already got some level of reputation in the same way that the Scout Association and the Guiding Association also have some level of reputation already. Because there's a lot of really good people gone through that organisation, they do good things. You could say the same for Seekadets. They're probably a less well-known organisation, but they do similar things in similar ways. So we would have other equivalents as Aquarius. Anything else? Oh, you look like you're ready. Do you want to grab the mic? I think it's a really good idea. Otherwise, we won't get this recorded. Which way to look for? I'll just look at it. Everyone is back. Can I just check this? Okay, hi. I'm Prasad. I work for Aquia. Since last one year, I was the part of core team which developed the certification. Right since its inception till its launching and the development of program, the development of the technical part, the questions and everything I was involved throughout last one year. There are two things that we are talking about over here. The one aspect is recognition of contribution and achievements. It's certainly one part and which can be done fairly objectively by any organisation. Because if I participate voluntarily in a Drupal camp or a Drupal con, it's very easy to identify that Prasad has attended Drupal con Amsterdam. So put a batch, issue a batch. The second thing, achievements, if I build like 10 websites, 100 websites, if I work for say NASA, it's fairly objective and independent to find out who has worked for it. Aquia certification, the purpose is not about achievements and contribution. It's more about independent and objective evaluation of a person's Drupal capabilities. So capabilities are slightly different than achievements and contribution. And the purpose of that, unfortunately in spite of being in the world for last almost 10 years. Now there is Microsoft certification, there is Oracle certification, there is Java certification, but there is no certification for Drupal. So there is no way in the world for an employer to evaluate whether a person I am employing knows Drupal well or not. Whether a person I am employing can work on a certain job specifications that I am expecting him to work or not. And that was the purpose of launching Aquia certification. It was to provide a objective and independent way, being a certifying authority, to evaluate, to judge and then to certify whether this person knows certain skills which are specified in our exam document. That was the purpose. Thanks. Thank you. Okay, so what I wanted to do possibly was have a quick can. And another thing if you see while launching, the certification address has written a blog post and he had mentioned over there basically that Aquia just wants to be just one of the certifying authorities and he would love and Aquia would love to see more and more certifying authorities as well as certifications come in the ecosystem. What I wanted to do very much was see that certification as one of a group. And I think that it makes it easier for people to see those and to make them visible. So what other things should we be making visible? What other things outside of contributing patches, contributing documentation? What should we actually be recognising? Is there anything in particular? Yes, absolutely recognising the association membership would be a really useful thing. It's a custom thing. It's a custom thing. It's actually something that, yes, we do currently. Although interestingly, mine is broken at the moment. Yes, I have paid. So, yes, we absolutely should recognise that. And in fact, at the moment we have already built into Drupal.org, custom way of doing that. And what I would like to do is make that more standard so that we can do it with other things. That's absolutely what this is about. Is there anything else with regard to what is it that you have done that you think is important to the Drupal community that we don't currently show on your profile and we can't trace back? So, what things do you do? Absolutely. So, who is the authority that gets to say that you've done that work? Yes. So currently we have camps that are the authority for saying that you've put in effort to make the Drupal community as brilliant as it is. And we need to make it possible for that authority to issue badges or to issue that achievement and recognise it in a way that not just the camp can see it, but everybody in the Drupal community can see it. Because that way you impart that niceness on that person. But it also gives the camp saying, wow, all these people went to the camp. All these people volunteered. All these people spoke at the camp in where? Oh, okay. Okay, cool. So it went to that camp and it sounds like it was a really good camp. So we can show that and we can show not just that the people who went, but the fact that the camp was good and vibrant. Is there anything else with regard to Drupal? Everybody here has done something in Drupal. I can guarantee it. You've all done something that is valuable. You will have. You've just got to kind of say what it is. Local user group meet-ups. So people going along to organising meet-up groups and so on. Us being able to recognise the work of those. So that might be that the authority for that, the person who wishes to issue achievements on that, might either be the meet-up themselves. Or it might be, well in the case, actually would it be still Drupal UK? I'm not so sure now. OK, Drupal Bristol. OK, that's cool. OK, so anybody at the back, what have you committed? Or what do you think you've done that makes it also valuable that you've done that really keeps Drupal going? Yeah. Oh, you can do that. There are some things that we should be doing automatically. Within Drupal.org that we could recognise. Yeah, OK. OK, so there's lots of different things. So what I'd really like to do, and what I'd really like to do, is spend a few moments thinking about how that happens on other sites as well. Oh, she's... All right, so one thing I'll say is I don't think that being allowed mouth generally counts, but that's my role. One of the things that this makes me think of is a conversation, actually, that Josh and I had in Austin, which is this is a great idea, but where should it live? Should it live on Drupal.org, or should it be... This wasn't specific to Open Badges, but it was specific to something else. I think having a badge structure where we're saying the community independently says that you have this ability. I think that's a great idea. I wonder if it should live specifically on Drupal.org, or if it should be its own thing that Drupal.org can then pull in. I think it's a good question, and it's something that I think we need to get right. I think that how I've spent time thinking along those lines was that Open Badges by itself is federated. Users get to choose what they show, and that's a really great thing. So when I made some badges earlier, I got to... It's always really far away, isn't it? I got to choose which badges I made public. And what we could do is we could say Drupal.org has its core facility for showing achievement. That's called to Drupal.org. Things that happen on Drupal.org should be seen as highest priority within people's Drupal.org profile. I don't see any issue with saying this person has wider experience than just things that they do on Drupal.org. And I think lower down in the profile there is certainly space. Haven't seen your designs for later. Unless they've changed. There's certainly space for saying this person has done all these things but they've also got these other experiences that have come from the wider Drupal.org Drupal community and even wider than that because I've got experiences and capabilities that are not just Drupal. But I think it is all relevant because I don't hire someone, I don't expect to be hired on the knowledge of my profile within Drupal.org that Drupal.org maintains because it only tells you about what you do within Drupal.org. But me as a person is more than that. Not a lot I'll admit. But there's more to it and I think it's an opportunity for us not to do very much and we have to put some caveats and I've organised a boff session for tomorrow where we can talk about that type of thing. So what is it that Drupal.org maintains which is pretty much basically everything it does now this is only additional this is fleshing out and making it a person more colourful in the fact that they can do all of these other things. And I'd really like to spend some more time on that. We could do either or both and that's a discussion to be had. Anything you want to put in there? We don't need to trust them because Drupal.org isn't doing something Drupal.org isn't saying anything other than saying look this person has these badges this is the context of Mozilla.org these are the context and place those badges within context of they are earned and managed by a Mozilla backpack and explain what that means. Yeah exactly. Hi. Hi. So I had some ideas thinking about you know as you were talking thinking about what benefits I would get out of open badges to Drupal for instance as we're working on symphony projects those are now very related to Drupal itself but they're not a part of the Drupal project so it might be good to say hey this person is not only Drupal but PHP expert, symphony expert or not even just expert because expert is the wrong word it's a contributor. They are somewhat knowledgeable any kind of knowledge to you know in the DevOps community vagrant or PuffPet which is a PHP Microsoft engineers. JavaScript front end things I mean grunt if you made a grunt plugin that does some amazing things and so GitHub integration and or Node package manager integration there. Definitely you need to come tomorrow so seriously I'll just put you up there and let you just kind of talk and we'll just write it down but it's literally a case of yeah we are more than what we do in terms of patches we're definitely more than that I would love to learn some grunt stuff because I don't know it and I know it's going to be relevant So what are the issues to get that implemented? Questions we need to ask and decide on to make that a reality. Okay so I think the first thing we need to do is we need to understand that there is a buy-in from people that we want to have Drupal.org showed someone as a wider person or as a wider organisation as well yeah I think we do but we need a wider group of people to agree on that. I think that we need to understand how we can explain the context of that wider recognition because it's more because the recognition is then being done in a federated way it's being done by organisations other than the Drupal Association we need people to understand what that means I mean to as a first step I don't think that's a big problem because OpenBadge you choose which one you want to show so if you don't do anything nothing will show up so it's not like we impose something on people so we can just implement that and explain afterwards so to me that's not like a blocker it's certainly important to get a lot of people using it but not necessarily to get that through the issue QN into Drupal.org I think in terms of getting the technology up there I think that we just need to get on with it we need to have a commitment to do it from a willing group of people of which I'm prepared to put some effort in because I care about this stuff I'm prepared to put a good few hours into this I'm prepared to take a day a week for a period of time to actually help make it happen because I have that capability at the moment I want to make this happen I want to work with people who are more knowledgeable of how to represent it on the screen to make it happen and then what we can do is we can see how it runs because as you said earlier on it's okay to make mistakes a great thing about implement an API like this is it doesn't stop you doing something else you could implement something else that comes along later as well suppose open badgers isn't the thing that becomes the de facto standard in recognising achievements in five years well kind of so what you leave the open badgers there and implement the other thing as well there's nothing to stop you doing that so largely we kind of just need to get on with it and we need people who are excited by the idea and want to learn how to do it so they can then use it elsewhere as well bearing in mind there's these 14,000 other organisations a lot of learning organisations that are already doing it and if you go to the openbadgers.org website it's just really buzzing really vibrant they've really got something going now and I think that us getting there on the upward curve of something like that I think is a big deal and I think if we do it it says a lot about Drupal to other organisations if we can do something like that and push it I think it's an opportunity for us but I'm talking about it tomorrow we'll sit down with a big whiteboard it's I've forgotten it's on that link and my glowing internet is not working yes, I think it is cool, it's in the afternoon I know that I would never book something in the morning no one knows afternoon slots thank you very much everyone with this session obviously I'm kind of asking you so many questions as I'm talking about session feedback it's massively important to me to know how to change this and to make it really ring with the rest of the community so if you don't like it, please say so so if you do, please say so it matters so much just go to the schedule there should be a link there on my session please, I don't care what you say but do say something I won't be hurt too much thank you