 Hey everybody, it's really exciting to have you join us again for another episode of the nonprofit show. We have an interesting and different and fun show today. And so we're really excited that you have joined us for another episode of the nonprofit show now you know, Camely Joy Patrick Jennings Fridays are a special day, because it is dedicated to ask and answer we are so delighted that our exclusive Fundraising Academy has joined in on this amazing, amazing opportunity for our nonprofit sector to ask questions, get some feedback, kind of take the temperature so what do you say guest of the day, get to it. Let's do it. Hey, well hey welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show Friday special edition of ask and answer. We want to thank all of our sponsors who joined us pretty much since the beginning of when we started. And it's really really exciting. They are in business to serve you. And so we hope you check them out because they want to help serve our nonprofit sector. Okay, this is the second annual post feast ask off with Camely Jennings, we're thrilled you're here. Well, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. Well, it's pretty exciting to get the millennial opinion of a nonprofit person in Camely Jennings also my daughter. Camely Jennings last year when you joined us for the first ever. You had just relocated from Germany. You've been working with I feel like this is your life. You've been working for the United Nations World Food Food Program share the meal. And you had just moved back to the states. Tell us a little bit about what's going on in your world right now. Thank you. Back in the States after about a year or so or been back in the States for about a year or so. And now I am doing consulting for nonprofits social sector organizations, and actually more specifically social impact within the tech sector So kind of reversing my role that I used to be working in at the World Food Program and now working with these private sector companies to help the social sector nonprofit organizations. Wow, amazing. Well, it's really I think fabulous that you have been on the client side now you're moving to the funder side. And I think that's really an amazing perspective that's going to be something that you share with us today on the ask and answer episode of the nonprofit show. So I say let's get into it what do you say, let's do it. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, if you haven't met. If you have with we haven't met. I have replaced my interpret co host Jared ransom the nonprofit nerd with Kamali Jennings so Kamali first question comes to us from Max and New Haven Connecticut. I'm a board member of a human services nonprofit. I just attended my first board meeting, and now I'm concerned that I have some legal liabilities that could be major. Yeah, you should be max do I need insurance. Is there even anything like this. I'm going to say yes, but I will leave it to you for all the details you're the expert. So, yeah, absolutely. Your organization as a nonprofit should have board insurance and this is a liability insurance. It should be reviewed every year to two years. It should be reviewed more often and if you get a bigger contract or say a new building where you take over somebody else's program or, or expand your services. It's very important in human services, because unfortunately clients pass away and things that are pretty tragic happen. I'll give you an idea, you know I served at the same time as a trustee for a major opera company as I did for as a board member for the nation's largest domestic violence shelter. I would say which was pretty crass it the opera people only died on stage, but in our shelter people passed away women, you know, passed away, often from their, from their injuries and that they have been brought in with. And yeah, it's a really big deal max so you need to make sure that you understand what those liabilities are, because they are serious. And I do, Kamely, you know I don't know if you've seen this but there can be fiduciary mismanagement that might come back on you, where the community, or investors, even investor donors might believe, or perceive that you have mismanaged their funds, and that can become a legal situation or legal entanglement. Absolutely. And can I ask, is this an insurance that's for the entire board or would this be an insurance that max would seek out himself to cover himself, or both really great question great question. So yes, the organization should have it for their elected board members, which they declare who those board members are. And then there's two answers to your question. This is if max and it doesn't say here but if max is part of a large corporation. Chances are they have errors and emissions insurance for their, their employees who serve on boards that help protect the organization that they're representing that's number one. I do max, you know you can look at your homeowners insurance and find out if there's an ability for you to buy a writer which generally there is. And it might be something to look at and investigate, depending upon the size of the organization that you're serving. And if it's a tenuous environment, you know I would be really interested to ask. So has the fallen this this board, have you had other times when you've been sued or you're you know you've been pulled into those actions that's that's something to look at because that's a real concern. Absolutely when when we do our board training at the American nonprofit Academy, I have to admit when we talk about this. This is the point with which everyone freaks out. Well, yeah, insurance is a scary topic I mean it's, you know, it's expensive can be can't be, you know, and so, and no one wants to be liable understandably so. So, no that's great question max. Yeah, really good question and I hope that you do pursue it. Okay, let's go to our next question Kamali Jennings Chanel from Chicago Illinois writes and I'm a young professional looking to get on to a nonprofit board. What should I do about the give or get policy. I'm not in a financial position to be writing large checks, but I am a hard worker. I like that. Again, you have the the experience on this one but I would say that, you know, one is not better than another. I think they're completely equally important. And so, I think it depends where Janelle works does she work at a tech company that can give services that she, you know, she work at a law firm she work, you know, in healthcare event you know I mean there's, there's a lot of things that companies her company, where she works for can help, you know, with the get policy. They could also help with the give but I think, you know, if she were to approach her company, the get would be an easier ask, people don't really see the resource conversion but they have a red flag if it's a financial question or ask. And so I would say that you know get policy. Again, depending if she's working somewhere that you know has resources, could be the, the better option. I think that's a really good idea for those of you that are the uninitiated, a give or get policy is very very common with boards which means with your board service every year. Not the tenure of your service but every year, you are asked to either give, which means you write a check for a certain amount, or you go out and you get that money, or that that value, meaning, you might host your own event, you might get it as as Camely just mentioned from your corporate partner. And sometimes that can be something done in trade, whereby, as you mentioned Camely, brilliantly I never really thought of that. Some type of service or product line that dovetails into that. And that is reported that is measured and that is something that varies. I have seen boards, whereby you have a $5 or $25 get, give or get and I've seen them over $100,000. So really depends but you need to know and understand about this. You know, Camely, there's another thing that we've been really, or I should say I've been promoting. You're promoting the idea to get younger board members to create a scholarship program, meaning that you could bring somebody in who you think is going to be a future leader, not only in your community, but your organization, right so you're looking outside just your organization. You scholarship them in, especially for those boards that have a significantly larger give or get, because you don't want to walk away from a young talent, because they can't come up with an extra $5 or $10,000. Right, no that's, yeah. How do you, in the application interview, you know courting process when do you think this is an appropriate question to ask, you know, is because it's kind of like you don't want to scare off the leadership to say I don't have money or I don't have resources but you know you, you're a great person and you want to be involved so when do you think, you know, this, it's a time to bring this up. You know that is a marvelous question and only somebody of your age would ask that question. And I appreciate that you brought that up. This is my take on it. It is not the prospective board members responsibility. It is the responsibility of the organization. For example, if you're being courted by the executive director, the board chair, a nominating committee, I don't care what this should be part of the disclosure. Part of the disclosure that is like, what is your liability, what is your responsibility, how, how much time is this going to take. Yeah, what are the costs associated with it. I mean, what are the nuances, you know, there are a lot of boards that will say you cannot be on other boards during your term. You cannot disclose certain things. You have to give of so many hours. You have to buy a table at the gala. These things need to be disclosed so that the prospective board member understands, is it realistic for them to even participate. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that's the ideal world, you know, but I'm sure that doesn't happen, you know, all the time so it's tricky it reminds me of applying for jobs. I mean, it's the same thing you're asking, when do I ask when what's the salary or you know what are my benefits I mean it's a kind of a, you know, dance around these topics that are uncomfortable. But they shouldn't be, you know, I think the more people talk about it the more it's out and open then, you know, people feel more comfortable about asking those questions are are giving an answer because that's also uncomfortable to, you know, for those right. It's a courageous conversation. You've got to be able to be bringing that up for the health of the organization, right. And also for the health of the relationship with a board member moving forward. Yeah, and you know, bringing in the millennial perspective I think, you know, not speaking on behalf of all millennials but I think a large chunk are really, you know, concerned and, you know, find transparency to be important. And, you know, if you're going to an organization that you've gone through this entire recording and interview process and then at the last minute they bring up this. Oh, by the way, you have to give us 50 K a year or whatever it may be, you know, that's an immediate turn off not just from the financial aspect but from, you know, not being transparent not being forthcoming not being organized is because really to me that's how that comes off. And I think, you know, for me at least that wouldn't be a place that I'd want to, you know, participate in because I think that, you know, being transparent and all of their financials and all of their, you know, programming is really really important. And I would say our generation is really keen on knowing those details. Well, and I think it's, it speaks to the intellectual nature of what that board members going to bring. Think about it and what you just said, when there are grants that have to be reviewed or contracts or hires or fires within the C suite. Yeah, that's when the rubber is going to meet the road. Interesting. Do you know, I hope that helps you and I hope that you don't get turned off as Kamely said about this, you know, ability to participate in the community and bring people along. Okay, Kamely James, I don't know if you know this, but name withheld questions are my favorite. Because there's a little bit of drama. All right, what do they have to say. Okay, name withheld from San Diego, California, my nonprofit just moved their annual holiday ask event to a virtual platform and frankly I was super disappointed. I'm in the fundraising, I am in fundraising and so it was not part of the and so I was not part of the production team. How do I navigate my comments and observations without making them are calm team upset. I have heard this question more and more. Yeah. Fascinating. We were just talking about this in the beginning, you know, um, everyone's dealing with this. You know, it's, it's hard because we're now in, you know, year two ish, you know, of the pandemic and people are tired of zooming and you know being on these webinars because you can only make them so exciting. You know, it's, it's exhausting it's it's, it's a it's a really difficult thing but it's, you know, could be the safe thing wherever you may be. It's about making the marketing and communications team upset. They're probably upset to that it got shifted. Everyone wants to be in person, you know, I mean it's it's not just you, of course on the production team because that's your job but I would say everyone wants to be in person and socializing and networking and you know we have this feeling that more can get done in person but I think as we've seen in the last few years, we still can, you know, run our world on a virtual space. I think it's a scary thing necessarily. But I think it's just harder. You know, I've dealt with this recently as we speak, you know, working on a big event and it's really hard to reach people, you know, without shaking their hand. You know, it's kind of got a hammer hammered in you know whether it's an email or it's a you know, a little gift delivered to their front door or it's a you know, Slack, you know notification that they get, you know, it's, you just got to really hammer in those messages and I would say don't worry about overwhelming people because I think a lot of people get, you know, scared oh my gosh is this too much messaging and am I being annoying, but it's okay to be annoying. I think if you're, if you're saying, you know, give me money, give me money, give me money that can be a little intrusive but you can be creative in that messaging and talk about you know being together being with your community, you know, talk about your beneficiaries or whatever you know project you're promoting to be creative with that and don't just ask, ask, ask, but I think you know it's doable. If you're alone with held your, you're not alone, I would say, you know, I think that's a really good comment. And, and I would say, Kamely, it's very similar to what you just said, you can apply that to in person events. You know, I've always thought that those organizations that were like at the end of event, the event you look around and their team is just like, you know, crashed on at the tables. And no, that's when the hard work gets started should be starting. You know, I think it's the same thing just because you have an event whether it's in person IRL, or it's, you know, virtual. Yeah, it doesn't just because the events over doesn't mean your work stops, it kind of is like the starting point, I think. I think it's a missed opportunity if you're not following up if you're not having subsequent events or maybe you don't have this big bash but you kind of do some smaller more intimate things because we all know if you get more than I don't know, I would say five, six people on zoom, you can't have a conversation it's just too crowded, you know, so maybe you have intimate little gatherings with you know local champions where you're talking about the initiative. And maybe that works maybe it doesn't. But everyone's in the same boat all experimenting all trying different things so you know it's a trial and error, I would say it is and I think it is very interesting I've been hearing this more and more about the mark on the marketing communication teams, working with production or production company or whatever, and they are not communicating with the development team, big mistake. You've got to make sure that those two teams are communicating. Yeah, because you know each team has their own goals, different goals and they should work together on, you know, the marketing communications team is going to know how to reach those people but then their development team fundraising team is going to say, this is what we want the message to be, you know, these are our goals, this is, you know, the outcome this is the impact that these, you know, gifts are going to have. So, yeah, close, close working relationship, even with the production team because now that production teams got a shift and you know, work behind a computer. There's still production to be done I mean you can't just you know click on zoom and then there you go there's a lot of work that needs to be you know put into it. There might even be a small cohort of folks who are in person putting on this event that everyone else is watching virtually. So, you know, don't don't think that there's nothing to be done on the event or production team, you know, I think that's very good, very good advice, production still needs to be occurring. So don't think that just because you're not in ballroom things aren't happening. Yeah, yeah, really, really important good advice. Okay, let's go to Francis in Denver, Colorado. We are in a crunch for attracting and hiring people to work for our nonprofit. Does it look inappropriate if we offer our current staff members, a financial reward for getting us new employees, we need help. I'm curious what your answer is. I don't know if you know my answer I'm curious what you would say you want me to go first. I, you should go first. I'm curious what are you going to say. Well yeah, I say offer, offer an incentive, you know, I think that the one issue I have here is it doesn't necessarily build diversity, because you know we, unless we have diverse lives you're going to get people that look like your employees and that kind of thing. But I also think that people, you know, they know people within the sector so for example let's say you work in a cultural organization. You're going to probably know other people that work in cultural organizations are that understand that segment of the nonprofit sector so maybe they are going to be good recruiters. We have this thing going on called the great resignation you know we have massive numbers of people leaving the sector retiring, determining they want to do different things. But at the same time we have a lot of new people coming into the sector that are saying, I don't want to work for corporate America anymore I want to take the next phase of my life and do something different. But I think it's okay. I really really do. I would say you'd need to talk to HR and find out this will probably be taxable income. Yeah. And so you need to make sure you understand that. And then I would put very strict parameters on it like, do they need to stay for three months or six months or you know how does it work. But what what say you can only enjoy Jennings. Did oh 100%. Yeah, I think, as you said, there needs to be structured to it because it can get, you know, everyone wants an extra 500 bucks $1,000 whatever it may be but you know if you don't have, you know structure if you don't have a cap on it to if you just say, oh, you know, get as many as you want. Wait, that's an extra five grand if I can recruit five people but that actually adds up you know for these companies, especially if you're smaller so I would say as you said put a cap on it sometimes companies have a tiered system so for the first employee recruit you get $1,000 for the next one you get $500 for the next one you get $250 whatever it is. You know, but I think as you said the diversity, you know, component is important but I think kind of on the flip side, if you're recruiting people you like, then you're probably more willing to stay at the company and create a better culture for yourself. Because people leave jobs not because of the work but because of the culture, the management, you know, the teams that they're on because, you know, that's not, they're not able to control that. But they kind of are in a sense if they're able to recruit their friends or colleagues or people who they think will really do a good job. So I would say it has a really strong benefit because you know you're only you know you're not going to recruit a friend to you think wouldn't be qualified, you know, because that's just more work for yourself. So I think that it's, it's a really important thing. And I think we're seeing it, you know, it's very common in the private sector. But I think it's becoming or should be becoming you know more common in the public sector and it also just makes the company look more attractive in general you talked about that you know great resignation. So companies are trying to do everything they can to have retention. And this is, this is a perk, this is definitely considered a perk, and is has a pretty low cost if you think about it. So, you know, I would say, go for it. Really interesting and, and I think what you said was just absolutely fascinating and we don't talk about this enough. The concept of culture. You're going to be actually maybe strengthening that cultural aspect that is very hard to articulate for a lot of organizations. It's hard it comes within you know you may have an employee who might not be a fantastic person at their job maybe their output is a little low, but they have a lot of culture, a lot of culture component, you know, to themselves that they're bringing to the team and that's, you know, a really really important person to keep around. And so I think, you know, not getting too much into HR but I think it's it's really important to, you know, have a balance within your team. Really interesting. I like that and I would imagine if you keep looking at these numbers. I think it's going to become this isn't just solved after the holidays of the new year or even, you know, the, the end of the pandemic. This is, this is an issue that has been amplified, I believe by the pandemic but we've already we've already been talking about this. If you just, you know, institute it for a short period of time then it then it does look a little gimmicky, you know, it does look a little strange but if you say this is a new company policy I think people will take it seriously. You know, and I think that's probably has more benefits to say oh wow my company again has another perk, you know has something cool going on they're really, you know, quote trendy, you know in the HR business side of things and so I think it's it's a positive thing all around. Yeah, I do too. Really good. Well, I hope that helps, because that's, this is a question that I would imagine the majority of our nonprofits are having this discussion. This is going to be with us folks and we need to do things that are creative. Okay, Charlene from Houston, Texas writes, our marketing team with the help of an ad agency just presented our new donor donor campaign to the board and they hated it. So we love, love, love it and feel that the board does not understand the donor marketplace. Wow, interesting. Any suggestions on how to navigate the rollout of this project. This is a loaded question. Mm hmm. Charlene. You know, part of this is who's on your board if you don't think your board is connected it goes back to what we were saying a few minutes ago. Where's that, you know, millennial or where's that older boomer, you know, on your Gen Z person, you know, on on your board because you'll be able to have a good feel of your donors and have a good representation of, you know, not just age but race, gender geographic location, you know, socioeconomic status even. And so I think that's probably at the core of this question is that's the first thing you have to figure out. But if you're talking about a new campaign right now you don't have time to restructure your board or have a deep diet. I'm maybe this comes from my tech background but I'm a firm believer in testing, we call it a B testing. So you show maybe it could be even on your Instagram story something you know, really, really, you know, easy. And you say, Okay, do you like color a or color B or do you like the fonts a or B, and you have people pick you don't need that many, you know, votes, if you will maybe you send a small email to a you know group of people or you ask your friends to the donors. Then it gives you kind of a different idea because we all have those gut instincts. But then it also gives you some data to support what your decision is because, you know, if you go back to the board and you say, we not only like this campaign but our small sample size of folks liked it too. Then they can say, Oh right okay I guess we should go with your idea, or maybe you are wrong and your cohort of people don't like it then you can go, you know, what the board thinks. What do you think, you know that's interesting I would have never said that I would have never thought that. But I think you're right. I think you're right I think we do need to be doing more testing I think back in the day when you rolled out a new campaign, it was like, you rolled out you had to buy the billboards you had to buy the ads you know it's like you're not going to get it yet would take you down another path. I like what you're saying and I also think to Kamali. I think that we are a more data driven society and with our decision makers. And I think if you can take that to a board that chances are they are disconnect disconnected to your donor demographic. Yeah, we see that across this country, we don't have boards that look like our donors necessarily. Wow. And testing doesn't have to be expensive like I said it can be on Instagram. That's free. You know, of course you could you know doing a Nielsen study and paying a lot of money. If that's you know the resources that you have but I think it's people get really overwhelmed by data, just that word data they think oh I'm terrible at math. I don't know how to do data but those are very different things, you know, I'm also not great at math but I know the data collection and so I think that you know just backing up what you have to say is great and you can do that with a small sample size of your marketing campaign and you can have results. Again if you use the Instagram example in 24 hours. You know so it's not going to really slow down your campaign rollout because we all know those run on tight deadlines but if you spent money with an ad agency and we know those are expensive. It shouldn't go to waste. You should really try to salvage it as much as you can. And maybe to your point, Kamely asked that ad agency. Yeah, exactly help in that process. Wow, this has been a pleasure. I'm sorry that our time is up. I mean I'm shocked that 30 minutes went by so fast. I mean, I love that this is the second annual tradition. I mean, who would guess that the mother daughter duo would have such sage advice. Yeah, we, we killed it. We did. We rocked it. Hey, Kamely Jennings thank you for joining us for another episode of the nonprofit show our special special Friday ask and answer, which is always one of my favorite days I'm always fascinated the questions that come to us from nonprofit leaders and donors and board members across this country it's really been an amazing thing. I can't wait to see what happens next year. Next year, we'll give we'll make sure that Jared ransom our co host has Friday off again, so that we can do this game we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors without you, we would not be here, having these amazingly robust discussions, as we do each and every day. Kamely it is the week of gratitude. I'm glad I have a lot of gratitude for you in my life. More importantly gratitude for you being in the nonprofit sector. Thank you. Right back at you and I think as I said last year the apple does not fall far from the tree so he which is a good thing. It's a good thing. So here we are but yeah can't wait for next year. I know well I feel like I have to apologize for that apple thing. Sorry. I'm thankful for that. Well everybody thank you for joining us. We'd like to end every episode with our mantra. Stay well. So you can do well. Have a great holiday weekend we'll see you back here on Monday everyone.