 My name is Ibrahim Chau, I work with UNEP, I'm the Deputy Executive Director of UNEP. I'm very pleased to be here today and would like to welcome all of you to this session. It's a beautiful environment, it reminds you of many things, I'm sure, these kind of rooms and environments. And I hope it will remind you of also proactiveness and interaction with whoever has the floor. Welcome to the Forum Transcapes in the Green Economy. The transition to a green economy is gaining momentum in many countries, in many companies and in many communities. As we heard this morning from the opening ceremony and subsequent panel discussions, adopting the landscapes approach. By the way, landscapes has 30 other names and acronyms, but let's just use that. More than 80. More than 80 now? Keep growing. But for the sake of the discussion today, let's just use the word landscapes. The landscape approach, adopting this approach is critically important if we are to achieve sustainable development. We need a new economic paradigm that focuses on natural capital, on ecosystem services, on resource efficiency and social equity. Red Plus, reduced emission from deforestation and forest degradation in developing countries, has been considered as low-hanging fruit for climate change mitigation and adaptation. Reducing deforestation and forest degradation not only contributes to combating climate change, but also contributes to biodiversity conservation. Red Plus implies improved governance of forested landscapes. This forum is dealing with the three complex issues that are relatively new to many people, namely landscapes approach, red plus and green economy. We need to unpack these issues or even demystify them for many of us. More importantly, we need to make these work seamlessly together for the benefit of current and future generations. With us today, we have a truly distinguished panel. A mix of scientists, community level actors, government representatives, private sector and international civil servants. We also have you as audience and as participants and I hope also as respondents. As we wish to have a vibrant and lively discussion, we are just too little to have a silent room. I would like to have a very interactive discussion with you. We have initially two and a half hours, we can say maybe now two hours, but that's a lot of time for this forum. I also would like to inform you that the discussions are being video recorded for further viewing by parodians of interested participants from around the world. With some luck we may have some questions from Twitter or Facebook. Our teams are collecting some information even though it is not streamed live, but many people know about this event and hopefully we will be having some interventions. Let me now introduce the team that is at the table here. We'll first have a keynote speaker, Mr. Mario Bokushi. Can you raise your hand please? Marco is the head of the UN Red Programme Secretary. He is based in Geneva. The UN Red Programme, as you know, is co-supported by UNDP FAO. Mario has been acting as head of the UN Red Programme since January of this year. He has more than 20 years of experience in many organizations including the World Bank and UNEP. Mario will be introducing the discussion for around 10 minutes, maybe 11 if he's not here. After that, we'd like to give the chance to another imminent personality around the table here to be respondents. We also have someone in the room who might be introduced later on who will sign us and we'll be summarizing the discussion at the end of the discussion. Mario, let me give you the floor first and then I will introduce the respondents as they take the floor as I introduce them. And I will introduce the latter stage, whoever is taking the floor in a very serious manner, maybe inspire others. The intention is to have a person who will be reporting to us and is known for being extremely efficient in providing summary discussions at the end of the discussion. Mario, you have the floor. Thank you Ibrahim and good afternoon to everybody. In the spirit of having an interactive discussion, I'm going to start to warm you up with a few questions. As we proceed, you'll get possibly more. So the first question is how many of you were at the plenary this morning? Just raise your hands if you were at the plenary. I was at the plenary too and I was inspired and very impressed by all the speakers and in particular by Rachel Kites. Rachel Kites is the vice president of the World Bank for Sustainable Development. She made a very, very passionate presentation in discussion on how a landscape approach can really deliver on a triple wing. It can deliver on food security, it can deliver on economic growth, and it can deliver on climate change mitigation. She spoke twice as much as the time I have been given. She spoke for about 20 minutes and during these 20 minutes she repeatedly kept asking the question if a landscape approach can deliver a triple bottom line. If we already know all what we know in terms of what it takes to deliver and we have done so many tests and we have tried it out at the field level, so many places. Why don't we see it scaled up? Why don't we see it taking up at a greater speed? And she concluded with this question. So why is it that we don't see a landscape approach being replicated across the planet at a much greater speed? So here comes the second question to you. How many of you thought or think if you were not at this plenary session this morning, how many of you do you think that, yes, that is the question? That is the question that is in front of us. If you believe there was the right question, just raise your hands. Either shy people or... I personally thought that there was absolutely the right question. So whether you thought of it as being the right question or not, here comes another question to you. This one you have to answer. How many of you think that, you know, gosh, I wish we had an answer to that question? And how many of you actually think, yes, you know, I have the answer to the question. I wish you asked me how many of you think that you have the question? Come on. Just modify it a little bit. Okay, so what are we going to do with this session? You know, it's really going to give us an opportunity for those who think you had the question to interrogate, to corroborate it, to test it out, to share it with the rest of the room. And for those who didn't think you had the question or the whole question to really, you know, start seeing light at the end of the tunnel. So for the next 10 minutes, or the next 8 minutes, I'm going to turn myself into a carpenter. And yes, this is how Italian carpenter like to dress, you know, in a very elegant society. And I'm going to do what I want to do. I want to put a few nades down metaphorically on the wall where we can hang our answers to Rachel Kybe's question. And we can start weaving a storyline that connects the landscape approach with the green economy with red. And I forgot my watch. Sorry, somebody. Please. So the first nail down is about something you've heard so many times. A business as usual approach is not an option. Again, today, yesterday, there's been so many reports that say the development pathway, the development paradigm that we have put in place. And that we have used for the last so many years is no longer going to be able to deliver on what needs to be delivered. Keeping in mind that we're going to have 9 billion people on this planet in a few decades from now with changing diets, with increasing demand for food. That we're going to have a climate change that is increasingly going to constrain the type of productivity that we can have. So a business as usual approach is off the table. We need to think of paradigm shift, as Ibrahim had mentioned, of a way in which we can still develop as economies. We can still grow, but we can do it in a way that delivers also socially and environmentally desirable outcomes. And that's where the green economy paradigm comes in. This is my second nail. The first one was business as usual, not an option. The second one is on a green economy. Basically in the simple terms what a green economy planet is about is that a triple bottom line is possible. You can develop your economies. You can grow. You can meet all of your macroeconomic targets. And at the same time you can produce socially desirable outcomes. You can produce environmentally desirable outcomes. And UNEP has been working on this for the last two years intensively. And he's amassed a huge literature that shows where this has been tested, where this has been debated. And to say that, yes, it is possible. So a green economy, and the green economy work that has been done so far, allows us to understand that transforming economies is possible. That there is not the necessity to do trade-offs between development and sustainability. That the two things can happen together. This is where the landscape approach comes in. And again you have heard so much about what a landscape approach is in the last two days. What I really want to point out here is that the take-off message for me is that for a country, for a society that wants to embark on this type of transformation to reorient its economic development pathway in a way that it does not deplete the natural resources, the natural capital that builds on the natural capital in order to produce the dividends that society needs, we need to really transform the way that we manage our lands, that we manage our landscape. That landscapes are such a fundamental component, especially in developing countries, or middle-income countries also, are such an important component of the economic growth texture that that's a place where we need to intervene and that we have to step out of a traditional sectoral approach where we just oppose outcomes on a sector by sector. And here just two quick data points. The first one is a study from FAO of, I think now two years ago, basically has projected that in a business as usual approach with a growing population, if we are to fit 9 billion people in 20 years from now, even after we discounted some type of food waste, we may still need some 150 million hectares of land to be put into production. And the business as usual approach is to get the land out of the forest. On the other hand, we're also saying that in order to allow this planet to remain on the trajectory for a less than two degree temperature increase, we need to reduce the forestation. And in order to do that, we actually are going to lock out even more land from being available for agriculture. So unless we think of a landscape approach where we find ways to produce the desired outcome at a systemic level, we're not going to succeed. And this is where the red plus idea instrument comes in. Let me start by saying that red plus is not about forestry. Yes, it is about reducing the forestation and by reducing the forestation, reducing carbon emissions and therefore contributing to climate change mitigation. But in the first place, red plus is about addressing the drivers of the forestation and the drivers of the forestation are mostly prominently outside the forest sector. So what red can do now is to play as a catalyst for the type of landscape transformation which in turn will deliver the green economy transformation. And can do that because red has been debated now for quite many years as a result of that there is a critical mass of support, a critical mass of champions out there, already a critical mass of political will to use this instrument and a critical mass of funding to bring that about. So red could lead by example. It could start illustrating that the type of transformation that we want to see in the economies and in the landscape are possible. Are possible in a number of significant jurisdictions where delivery at scale can take place. The final fifth mail on the wall is about what will deliver this change in the short time frame that we have. And there's of course many things that could be considered as entry point. But for the purpose of this discussion I would like to propose that we consider the sequencing of public sector investment and private sector investments. Public sector investments needs to come first to lower the barrier at entry for the private sector to redirect its investments in a sustainable direction. And the public sector investment is about bringing stakeholders participation and taking a demand and an oversight by civil society putting in place the governance arrangement, the rule of law addressing the tenure issue. All things that the private sector is not able to tackle frontally but if the public sector can do that then the private sector should be ready to step in and invest the level of trillions that we have been talking about. So just finally to say that none of let's not fool ourselves. This is not simple, this is super complex. You know I was looking for a quote from an eminent Polish person so I was thinking of Chopin or Copernicus. I didn't have the time to find anything. So I'll revert to somebody who was born in the neighbourhoods, that's Einstein. He once said, I mean in the neighbourhoods in another country of course, he once said I can make it simpler but I cannot make it simple. And I think this is the same story for us here. It's not simple but if you can make it simpler then I think we have a tipping point ahead of us and the transformation, the transformation, the kind of transformation that the green economy is proposing can indeed take place. Thank you. Thank you very much Mario. I knew you were a good leader. I knew you were an excellent expert. Today I am discovering that you are competent. Very good work. We have four respondents. Let's start with you Sarah. Sarah is the president of Eco-Agriculture Partners. She is also I think the founder of Eco-Agriculture Partners a non-profit that works with agriculture communities around the world to develop eco-agriculture landscapes, she will explain what it means that enhance rural livelihoods, have sustainable and productive agricultural systems and conserve or enhance biodiversity and ecosystem services. Sarah, is it possible to have that combination of agriculture feeding the people conserving biodiversity and caring about the planet? Do you agree with what Mario was saying? He has five points. Abraham, good afternoon everyone. I definitely do believe that it is possible and I believe that not only because it's ideal for us to aspire to but because we've been spending the last number of years looking at the cases of groups that have been working in landscapes that do make these kinds of transformations. So we actually have a very large number of examples to learn from. We've just completed an inventory of integrated landscape initiatives in Latin America and in Africa and there was 104 in one and 87 in the other one. That was just the ones that responded to our inquiries. There were many more that we identified but were not able to document the inventory processes going on around the world. We've also looked in depth at a number of these initiatives and there are very, very many models. There often is an entry point with a particular interest in water or biodiversity or food productivity or land restoration. But we definitely have a number. I would say that the data is not really high quality in terms of the impacts. We have quite limited documentation in part because people don't have the tools yet to do the kind of integrated monitoring that we need. But there's no question in my mind that this is an opportunity and it's driven not because people get bored one day and say I think I would like to do a landscape approach. No one does that because it is a little bit more difficult. It requires people to move beyond their comfort zone in terms of the people they normally associate and the technical expertise that they have themselves. It's a little bit psychologically difficult sometimes for people to move forward. So people do this typically when there really is a demand for it. And we think of landscapes as the socio-ecological mosaics but the integrated landscape management is the effort by stakeholders in the landscape to cooperate together. So I would say that we definitely have that opportunity and it's starting to happen at much larger scale. At the session yesterday Margo Hill was presenting a case of a very large landscape in the Brazilian rainforest of the Atlantic Forest where hundreds of thousands of hectares there are a very large number of organizations that have cooperated in an organization called PACT to basically develop a collaborative strategy for conserving and reforesting increasing forest businesses, increasing agricultural productivity in markets through a wide number of financing mechanisms and a wide number of programs on the ground from farmers on up. I can speak about some other examples but I think my, should I stop or can I give one more? We've been working at this individual landscape scale primarily at Ecoagriculture Partners but we had the opportunity two years ago to collaborate with something called the SAGCOT Center, the Southern Agricultural Growth Corridor of Tanzania which had been working in 2009 to develop a blueprint for a very large scale investment program. In fact it's somewhere between two and three billion dollars of public and private funding that were intended to transform Southern Tanzania to become actually one of the bread baskets of Africa particularly around rice and sugar but also they were going to rebuild and reinforce infrastructure promote agro-industrial development. It's really a very ambitious kind of a program and it represents some of these growth corridors that are actually being replicated in many different parts of the world but that first blueprint was absolutely 1960s agro-industrial development I think really. It was very much seed fertilizer, irrigation, high energy, conventional energy use, a narrow range of specific export commodity crops and local crops and it was very interesting and certainly all things that needed to be done but it wasn't a green economy strategy and I think the stakeholders involved in that took a look at what they were doing stepped back a little bit and said my goodness we are promoting an agro-industrial growth of enormous proportions in an area that has major Ramsar wetlands protection areas some of the most important red initiatives from Tanzania an area where eco wildlife tourism is the second most important source of income for the country so all of a sudden they're saying women how are we going to do this agricultural development initiative without taking into account all of these other sectors and so they asked us to collaborate with them in developing agricultural green growth strategy but we had never worked at the level of these large corridors before but we thought what happens if you think about agro-industrial development with the lens of a landscape approach with landscape thinking how does it look different I'm sure for me you have some good examples to describe about this and other but let me just tell you very briefly before my time is up here what the key things that came out of that assessment were and our methodology was primarily consultation with individuals and companies and farmers organizations within Tanzania to talk about what they thought they could already do it wasn't pie in the sky thinking it was what is already existing in southern Tanzania that we could build in and there were basically four key areas of action one of them was a whole series of green quote-unquote green agricultural investments that could take place a lot of experience with conservation agriculture that was in the process of expanding good for climate, much higher levels of productivity by the way I didn't mention this is one of the poorest areas of Tanzania very low crop yields, very high levels of malnutrition largely dominated by small holders so anyway conservation agriculture system of rice intensification requiring very much less water than conventional rice production was a whole range of agro forestry systems a whole range of drought tolerant crop varieties that were already being introduced these could all be scaled up another area, sustainable farm inputs looking at precision agriculture there was a number of companies that have already started to experiment with precision agriculture looking at bio inputs and the potential for developing new businesses with bio inputs looking at solar and biogas alternative sources of energy and then a whole range of forest and eco enterprises including payments for ecosystem services which are already being done within southern Tanzania and then reading the value chain opportunities already eco certification programs being set up already in place in Tanzania could be dramatically expanded and green methods for constructing infrastructure but the second really important thing that I think has been so much less looked at was what we call creating fertile ground for these things because they're just not going to happen they needed, I think as Mario was saying need much better government arrangements for land and water allocation much better action for mobilizing local organizations farmers organizations so they can be part of the planning process and so they can access funding and there really was no significant extension system in Tanzania that could handle these green technologies they just don't know about the green technologies and finally there really was no mechanism for the kind of collaborative landscape level planning that was really needed to help private actors and private investors to move there the third and that's where I'll stop the third element that came out that was really important was the finance how do you mobilize financing in this and there were two strategies one of them there is actually a lot of money going into the area and a lot of it could be defining the criteria for eligibility for access to public and semi-public money or even from the private money screening private money to make sure that new agricultural investments not only comply with the voluntary guidelines but also comply with the vision of the growth that they have in southern Tanzania and then there's a number of new sources of finance for ag green growth some of which are being set up by the program some of which are from sustainable land management some of it from climate change conservation finance impact investors a lot of these groups are interested in southern Tanzania but there was no framework within which when they came to Tanzania someone could say this is the way we would like to see you invest a very concrete example of actually a large-scale investment where public and private funding were mobilized that connects very well to my next respondent which is Martin Ponson Moringa Investments Martin is a partner at Moringa partnership for the African Development Bank for the European Investment Bank we had looked for many other agencies in Africa essentially in Port Yvoire in Switzerland and many other places I asked him this morning Martin why did you call me come to Moringa maybe we should start with that and then challenge a little bit Martin Ponson Thank you very much for that very nice introduction I may answer or just respond a bit the keynote speech and answer at the same time your question about why Moringa next or maybe come to that at the end but I there was a couple of very interesting aspects in the introduction and one of the things you mentioned Mario was the importance of addressing drivers of deforestation and the genesis of Moringa was originally in thinking about how to if you like support the red plus initiative and how could a fund be constituted which would be principally preoccupied with with that mechanism and then I think as people sat down and thought more about it the question of landscapes the question of smallholders the question of agriculture, the question of food all of those things were in the background and we didn't find a way to if you like convincingly merge that and look at that inside a principally red driven and forestry oriented strategy so that was where the idea of agroforestry was born because we felt that that more neatly dealt with the broader range of things that we were looking to encompass in an essentially sustainability oriented investment fund structure so the genesis of Moringa was exactly in that discussion one of the questions you put to us Mario and I didn't raise my hand for good reasons but you asked us who has the answer to the very many questions that are implicit in this discussion and we for sure didn't have the answer but we may have a little piece of the answer our lives as investors are generally rather focused on very specific investment opportunities so and over time, over the next five years if all goes well we'll invest in between 10 and 15 projects across a large geographical area sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America so whichever way we look at it our intervention, our impact in the direct sense is very pinpoint in that huge area but we are hopeful that by showing success at investing in agroforestry projects in that area that the individual case studies of those businesses that we back will be quite powerful in terms of mobilizing additional private sector capital of showing the public sector that the private sector actors were able to invest in a way which is coherent with public sector objectives as well so that's a key question I think we have a small part of the answer we need help from the other components in that very complex system to really make it work but I think that in answer to another point you asked was how to deal with this question of sequencing public sector versus private sector I suppose our feeling is that the public sector has a sufficiently compelling context if you like for us to be able to persuade our investors who by the way are public investors and private investors we've raised a fund of 50 million euros today including public sector investors and private sector investors we've gone far enough down the road I think to be able to convince those investors that the context in which we're working is sufficiently coherent and solid to start that doesn't mean that we have everything we need but we have a small what we call our technical assistance facility fund which is a much smaller fund 5 million euros which will be grant financed as opposed to a pure investment fund and which we will be able to use to compensate for some of the deficiencies that we face in some of the quite frontier market countries in which we work so perhaps then just to wrap up with a response to your question can you step back into Moringa from the African Development back in the IB while in a sense it's a personal question and I think for me it's a long held I suppose belief that the private sector has quite a powerful role to play in development of many of the countries in which we work in Moringa I think I see a vehicle which is able to deliver the triple bottom line returns and impact that is required to do that so from a personal perspective it's quite a compelling vehicle to be involved in that would be the short answer to the question but Moringa is a plant Moringa is a plant indeed and I will I face this question or observation often many other comments about Moringa because it's a well known plant we chose Moringa not because we plan to create projects of thousands of hectares of Moringa in cases anybody is hoping that I can invest in the Moringa project but we did it because of the we found it emblematic of sustainability the way that Moringa can be used for many different purposes from food to medicine to fuel etc so it was an emblem that we liked many parts of the world including from Africa we will remain in Africa our next speaker is coming from Kenya Agnes Lina I found out last night that Agnes and I have many things in common even though I'm originally from the western part of Africa it turns out that actually we are all coming from the same origin in that place which is now called either Egypt or Sudan but that's the origin of most of Africans and it turns out that we are coming from the same community and believe me we still have the same taboos so it's quite interesting we will continue that and we will certainly publish a book about Agnes Agnes is the Executive Director of a small organization called ICC Ilaramatak Community Concerns she'll correct me because I'm sure I must have a domain a group that promotes the human rights of pastoralist communities in northern and southern Kenya with a special emphasis on women and girls Agnes is an indigenous woman from Kenya as I said with links to the Masai Samburu Turkana, Somali Burana and the Rendele peoples you may not know all of these but it was important for me to list them because they are quite significant and quite diverse at the same time which shows that actually Agnes has a very large network in her country thank you hi everyone I just want to emphasize the fact that we have been hearing about plants plantations, agriculture, moringa plant and I want to take you a little bit away from that it's still a model of farming but it's pastoralism in fact the word Ilaramatak means pastoralist or hadas or caregivers if you may I just want to say that we're talking about the red we're talking about green economy we're talking about all these technologies and terminologies among pastoralists those terminologies are not yet there but yet pastoralists are the best people to take care and to conserve what we call range lands or landscapes if you may actually in most African countries 80% of the land is arid and semi arid but ultimately you cannot plant anything there not moringa, not tea nothing but it is the best for pastoralism and for a very long time the pastoralists are actually used to the fact that they expect erratic rainfall and they expect drought so they have always been completely aware and waiting how to go about it they actually for a very long time without any intervention outside intervention have been able to mitigate and adapt to these climate change shocks that are affecting them this is because we have our own traditional knowledge and we have Council of Elders for instance if we know that we have our own names we have our own way of knowing the next thing we are not going to have rain we have a way of looking at the trees somehow there is a certain tree you look at and it's starting to become green, it's having green leaves when it's actually very very dry then the next thing you hear the elders telling us we are about to get rain so before it rains we all have to go to the mountain for instance so we migrate to other places and then leave this other the places we have migrated from to recuperate and this is as Ibrahim was talking about on our own traditional knowledge and it's a taboo you cannot listen to the elders and they say that you have to move your livestock is going to be struck either by a disease or maybe the raiders or something like that but you have to listen and move as a community we've definitely had challenges as pastoralist communities because of the way the land is being seen to be idle is this notion that this is plenty of land and it's idle land so we have to give it up for the most favored maybe farming or even for national parks because definitely we all need this, they much needed the dollar and then definitely we have had a lot of reduction of our land because of that but the fact remains that we are the ones who have actually known to manage our own lands using our own traditional knowledge I just want to say that red must ensure equitable sharing of benefits diversified livelihoods and protection of indigenous knowledge, this need to have the indigenous knowledge and the technology that we have these days put the two of them together and come up with something and not just to ignore the traditional knowledge and say this is outdated and then come up with all these sophisticated words and then ignore the communities that have been living there with the animals you know the wild animals and have been living there with these forests for such a long time and we also have our way of knowing which animals actually because we keep animals not farming as agricultural farming as I said earlier so our most of our animals are grazers we have only one species which is a browser which is the camel so definitely in terms of taking care of the environment pastoralist pastoralism is one of the best ways of doing that and we have realized that we are losing a lot of that tradition and we are losing a lot of that knowledge what we need now is to document that traditional knowledge those traditional knowledge systems and then combine them with whatever else that comes up and also of course take back the information that we are getting here back to the communities so that they too are aware and they know what's going on there is a way in which they can also be involved right from the beginning up to the very end and there is need for consultation and participation with indigenous peoples for success of rare programs at all levels at the level of the design of it, the strategies and the benefit sharing thank you thank you very much thank you for caring for pastoralism pastoralism is the best way of managing lands in arid lands indeed when we talk about landscapes, most of the time we think about agriculture and not much about other types of land use and land use planning and indeed when we have land to new systems we are mostly designed for farming and agriculture and not much for pastoralism and pastoral communities in most part of the world are marginal communities, they are not mainstreamed into development let's move on let's actually fly from Africa and land in a country that has how many thousand islands 30,000 30,000 islands that's the only one country in the world Indonesia Pahiru Prasatiyo is deputy head of president's delivery unit for development monitoring and oversight you can forget about the long name this unit in the office of the president of Indonesia is the one we need to go to if you need a decision to be made or is the one that is doing planning and doing monitoring and oversight on behalf of the president for what the government is to deliver on Pahiru is deputy head of planning and international relations in that unit before that he was the director of international relations of the executive agency that rebuilt after the tsunami what a monumental task of a huge task that has recently been assigned to the unit that Pahiru and Pahiru are managing in the red plus in Indonesia I used to well I'm still doing that but let me repeat red plus in the world and I don't know what is going on with or without Indonesia because I think this is one of the countries where we have now after another country but Indonesia is the country where most of the challenges are but also most of the hopes are so the hope is in your hands sir thank you my friend I feel so inadequate at the same time I feel so lucky I feel so inadequate because I think the language has moved very far from the original meaning of the terms landscape but I'm also very lucky because of that landscape work because when I look into Wikipedia or Oxford dictionary what I found a landscape wider than deeper wider than deep this is landscape this is portrait and I think somehow why I think it's quite lucky that I have that meaning when I look into that is that because from my perspective being in the president's unit things are white but not deep so when you're talking about listening to the deep story of the depth I think that is very much encouraging let me tell you why I see white and not deep and let's see whether that is the definition of landscape later on the way that I see it when I got into this responsibility of doing red the first thing that we are trying to do is to be able to measure emission reduction from deforestation wall to wall in Indonesia three time zones from the west to the east 13,000 islands and we need to be able to measure the reduction of emission from deforestation in those 13,000 islands how can I go deep I have to go white my landscape is three time zones so having said that we said that can we do that on a three time zone as a landscape work on something that is so seriously being discussed about what landscape approach is I don't think so so we zoom in into Karimantan Tengah we zoom in into a district we zoom in into a village and then we say that the way to do landscape is when it is small because when you are trying to make it big then I think the ratio question become very serious why is it not scaled up because when you scaled up is that you are going from the atmosphere to stratosphere because the way that you want to see your landscape you can see it from ground level to 50 story building you go to a plane you go to a satellite right that is one issue that I feel is actually facing us and the atmosphere is different than your stratosphere is different when the ionosphere you go up you cannot breathe that is the difficulties of scaling up of the landscape approach now that was my theory and I thought I was already very wide I thought I was already very thin I thought I already be very landscape approach in paper and then the president give us another job because he was asked to be the co-chair of the high level panel for post 2015 development agenda and so my challenge change from being wall to wall into down to down because I have to deal with the whole planet we have to deal with the 50,000 consultation with indigenous people with CSO, with akadims, with politicians with whatever you can say that is having a concern about the life of this planet and we have to do a landscape that is worldwide so we went up with the satellite but the problem is even if you go as far as you can you can only see half of the earth when you are talking about landscape approach you are talking about red you are talking about the things that is connected to that and green economy at the same time you have that basic challenge of perspective I agree totally I understand totally that it is not talking about the business as usual like Mario mentioned is considered to be sectoral approach but sectoral approach is not the only approach that needs to be changed right? sectoral approach is one are we still working on our scientific discipline or are we going cross discipline that's not sectoral that's discipline we need to go also cross discipline now let me put that aside a bit if I still have time Ibrahim give me more time to talk about red plus when we do red plus when we say that all red this reduction of ambition and then we look into a lower part how can we do this? if our regulation is not making it possible to do that if our institution doesn't have the capacity to do that if our people is still having the paradigm if I don't eat now I will not support and because of that some of my friends the indigenous people are supporting the move for the oil company to enter their forest because they need the money because their livelihood from the forest is not enough so they want more because they want motor cycle, they want television they want mobile phone that is a challenge so you have to see that in a way that is perhaps definitely not business as usual but then when you are doing that and you get into the core of the issue and you can look into that what is then green economy and you want to do green economy in that sense green economy as defined by UNEP is an economy that is improving the human well-being and social equity at the same time not sequential at the same time minimizing the environmental risk as well as ecological scarcity that is big words you are trying to do the whole green economy and what is economy in the first place that is the approach economy is actually the art of managing our household so if that means that you are talking about a management of affairs in your country in your jurisdiction in your environment that is talking about improving human well-being social equity blah blah blah how does it connect in a landscape approach how does it connect with red that is the challenge we can go deeper if you look into this part this is the solution if you look into this part this is the solution even if we are talking about cross-sectoral even if we have gone far from that location into the issue of interdisciplinary I got another question and that question is when I am already defining my landscape when I am already managing that when I am already doing that in a way that is balancing the use of land such that I can provide continuous food I can provide continuous water I can provide continuous energy and at the same time doing what the people of the world needs to do from the beginning of time which is conserving the forest but was not done so we are trying to do that playing catch up on that if that is already done landscape done green economy done and suddenly there is an office out there in Geneva or somewhere it is called WTO and there is another office in New York that is calling about let's do the funds flow moving if you are having some problem with your money I will speculate on that in your country is that I don't care that is the economic system of the world we need to look into landscape including that the flow of funds the flow of goods the flow of people as well as the flow of ideas I am indeed very inadequate to talk about landscape I am just seeing it from a different perspective because the one the first time that I know about what is landscape it is wider than people and we need to go deep so if we go deep there and try to answer the question of Mario earlier we have to do with public funding and public funding will draw private funding I remember whole time when I was still a student sitting in this kind of a and I have my experience first experience working outside my project and I learned what is called CPM I think if you are studying engineering you know that critical path method one issue done after another sequential approach and then I talked to that with some builder look you have to do CPM because if you don't do CPM you are not going to be very efficient in your process alright that's good you are a young chap very smart now can you tell me if I have to build a foundation for a wall that is 100 meters do I have to wait until the foundation is done and then build the wall on top but you know sir if you do that then the foundation is already hard and you cannot build the wall properly on top of that so what did you do I said I built 10 meters I built the wall I built the wall and it is called the project evaluation and review techniques approach whereby it is not going to be sequential I don't believe that public funding needs to come everything first and only after that the private funding will come I think we have to do that part by part and that can be on a landscape approach on a jurisdictional approach you correct, you prepare the foundation in one district public funding for that small one the private fund can come to that the next district and then the private fund comes to that again and if you do that in the whole world then what will you see in the map is that actually public funding and private funding working hand in hand because that is the rule of how to make it happen so sorry again I am very thin thank you very much for this it meant to actually go deeper into the questions now but what I will do instead is to give you the pro for your interventions your questions your queries if you want to probe if you want to disagree please grab a mic introduce yourself for not too long but please tell your name clearly so that we know who is speaking and if you have a specific person please if not I will handle okay great good afternoon my name is Charles McNeil I'm with UNDP and I've valued this discussion I like the five point framework that Dr. Bokuchi laid out and I do appreciate the downsides of the sectoral approach focusing on forests here and agriculture here and water here but I wonder and this is really a question for Pak Heru and then I have another question for somebody else but I wonder if governments really can handle that concept of landscapes when you have ministries of forests and you have ministries of agriculture can they get the heads around that concept you're in a unique position having overall responsibility so you might be one of the only people in any government in the world who could but I wonder if that concept of landscapes will take hold in governments given the sort of political realities there and I also have a question for Martin Mario talked about how public financing and private finances need to be phased with public coming first civil society and indigenous peoples are sometimes very concerned that the private sector will be the beneficiary will be the recipient of a lot of the initial government investment and that's a real concern I wanted to know from your perspective of the private sector do you need that funding from government or do you just need a level playing field do you need a regulatory environment of rules and laws that allow you to have a clear game to play and so progressive and proactive efforts won't be penalized or you won't suffer from that so I just sort of wondered from your perspective how you would address the concern by civil society that the private sector might be the beneficiary rather than perhaps civil society so I'll stop there thank you very much let us take more questions which gives the time a bit of time for our panelists to think about your questions and maybe try to summarize please Thanks Charles, Ian Henderson from UNEP Finance Initiative this is a question for Martin we talked a fair bit and Pak Harrow just touched on this concept of public sector funds enabling private sector funds and given we're close to Christmas given your perspective of having worked for development banks as well as on the private sector what specifically would you ask what tangible I've probably asked you this before over lunch but what tangible things would you ask for that could make your life easier either in terms of the capital raising you've just been through but also in the identification of your investment pipeline and I know the two are into the link so just maybe a couple of really practical medium term things that the international community could provide that would do what we always talk about which is leveraging private sector finance Thanks Thanks, it's Matt Leggett from the global canopy program thanks very much for your presentations interesting as always my question is kind of linked to the questions from the various UN organizations at the front there and I suppose partly to Mario what opportunities or what in appetite do you think they might be for using public sector red financing to assist the funding of the transition to sustainable agriculture for some of these big commodity producers that you find in Indonesia and other parts of the world so that's the first question and then secondly I guess feeding on from actually no I'll leave it there because I actually want to just hear the end of the question I don't see any other hand yes there's one Tim Milley from Meridian Institute this is just a clarification question for the gentleman from Moringa can you just describe a little bit about the nature of the investments that you're making and the degree to which carbon credits for verified emissions reductions play a role in your analysis of the return on investment etc thank you Very good maybe Martin you would want to take the floor first or Mario or let me go to Martin I think most of the questions were addressed to you Great thank you for those questions and I'll try my best to answer them they're not necessarily easy questions to answer but maybe just in the order of they came if I understand your question rightly it's how do we ensure that everybody understands the interest of an actor like us getting public sector support in some sense vis-à-vis others and how will civil civil society see that the simplest answer I can give I think is that the proof is in the pudding and I think that we talk a lot about our strategy publicly the importance of making sure that the sustainability in all its forms is present making profitable investments which will hopefully encourage further investments to be made by us and others in the future it includes making sure that we produce the win-win situation on the ground for ourselves and local people we see one of the particular interesting inherent properties of agroforestry is that it does allow us to easily engage local people and small holders to produce crops and also to grow trees so I think that we have a solid platform for doing that we need to show that that is what happens the first project we'll do we hope in the early part of next year will be an entirely small holder based agroforestry strategy project in West Africa producing different oils so I think that the simplest way for us to speak to that question is to show by our actions that the kind of projects we're backing are solid from a civil society perspective more from our perspective and not forgetting the environmental side that we produce the benefits of agroforestry in terms of soil refitilisation that can come out when projects are properly designed but then that's the best we've asked on the question I think it's what comes out and we will once we have invested in projects we will talk about them with great enthusiasm I think and one by one be able to come to that point in a concrete way I think I might say the Christmas present one for last because of course that's a nice thing to think about in some ways on the carbon credit side our investments are very much into the fabric of the underlying project and business so are the return that our projects make is from the sale of biomass and wood from the forest side of things it's from the sale of agricultural products very often into local markets by the way we don't exclude international markets but very often we're selling into local markets the oil project I mentioned is exclusively servicing local markets for edible oils and combustible oils over our entire portfolio about 65% of our revenues will come from the forestry side, biomass and wood about 30% from the agricultural side carbon credits and other environmental credits that we can derive so it is a component but it's not a component which makes the difference between a project being financeable or not we will do our utmost to produce carbon credits, environmental services oriented credits we think we have a solid platform in the sense that our project should have a solid sustainability brand associated with them and for private markets within that's so it's definitely present but it's not an overwhelming factor in the thing and on the public sector what would it like for Christmas side I think we have the starting blocks have been put in place I like the wall analogy that was just mentioned I think that the analogy is that the public sector puts in place the concrete and then the private sector builds the wall on top we're going to start doing that I feel that the first 10 metre stretch has been done, if you like, by the public sector I think at this stage there are no neatly wrapped things we need I think we'd like to be accompanied, to be watched to be observed, to be supported and there's been some discussions going on already that I've had today where people are taking interest in what we're doing I think we'd like people to take an interest in what we're doing and to the extent that it makes sense to follow us along that first 10 metres of the wall and take a look at all the different posts that are propping up our wall which may illustrate floors and the foundations and then be ready to work on the next 10 metres with us and that would be the best way to describe it Thank you very much Mario I was in the first place to respond to the question from Global Canopy on what opportunities there are to use red funds or I would say funds that are catalyzed by reds to address agriculture issues or issues in the agriculture sector and I think that also allows me to address a very good comment from Paero, I knew I was going to get myself into trouble with him, after all he's an engineer, I'm a carpenter and again, let me respond to that with an example so take a country where a significant part of the economy is dependent on an agriculture export commodity that commodity produces contributes to 1% of the GDP, 10 million dollars of export revenues so it's a commodity that needs to be produced in a business as usual approach the plantations require to produce their commodity whether it's palm oil, timber, soya in an environment where there is no more agricultural land available you would go into the forest so the question is in practice how do you turn that around and I think this came up also as I mentioned different landscapes have different mix of solutions so in the first place you would look at is there already deforested land that is being suboptimally utilized where the plantation can be developed in a number of countries the answer is yes, there is some lands that can be used for that the problem is that that land has no secure land use rights so for a company developing its 200,000 hectares of plantation on a deforested land where there are contested land use rights where it is not clear what ownership is being associated with communities it's a very risky business so the company would as a matter of preference go into forested lands where those land use rights are not adaptive and it's easier to develop in some plantation so the public sector investment and it's not only public sector funding it's investment also in terms of political investment being this particular case there of addressing the tenure issues and the land use rights and there is a cost associated with that and it is that cost that the public sector investment that is triggered by the red proposition that it is going to come from red that it is going to be used to actually address the governance barriers and lower the barriers of entry for the private sector then the question is and again we don't have to build that wall for 100 meters but at least you need to start building enough of a foundation so that you can put up the wall a question to Martin and Paolo do you think is out there enough places where this wall can be built at a scale that is sufficient and reflects the type of challenge that we have ahead do we have these conditions in place on areas that go beyond the few thousand actors and that actually represents the type of challenge that we have ahead of us in the next 10 years if we really want to scale it up thank you very much Mario there was a specific question addressed to Paolo and now another one I would like to give you the floor and then maybe Sarah would thank you gosh very difficult you're asking that the department and the government can handle landscape approach and that's what I will say that the difficulties gets more when you get into the details even if that is on a nationally macro level I have a very interesting example that I'm going to share at the closing plenary later on so come to the plenary but the point is basically the case was about the way that the need for us to have self-sufficiency in rice is an issue of food security when you're talking about the issue of food security the landscape approach needs to be added with a lot of appendices how do you deal with the need for import when we have this agreement with India and Vietnam how do we deal with conditions whereby your input for the plant for the paddy field is actually not flowing well how do you deal with the middleman how do you deal with the need for us to provide food for the poor at a very subsidized price now try to solve that with the landscape approach it's not that easy that is at that level when you're talking about from the national down to the real underground level landscape approach to me is a very good approach when you're talking about projects you scale up into real jurisdictional problem real national social problem real international connections then you face a big war and that is where we have the difficulty still in terms of that not saying the landscape approach is useless it's a big progress but it's not enough we need to do something more to make it really work on that issue I also touch a bit on those red issue about how do you make use of that public fund to create the interest for the private funds we know that when you're talking about the small holders in the palm oil palm oil industry they burn their land because they need to prepare the land before they plan and that's the way that is cheap private investment wants to come in if you want to prepare the land for them to land regulations must be better must be conducive for that and other things institution capacity of the people who speaking licenses has to be good and not only that also attitude and accountability needs to be good such that the private funds will be interested to come in and later on generate result return now the return that is being discussed here should not only merely be carbon carbon is very elusive like other commodity carbon is also very difficult to project to the future so I agree very much with Martin's approach it's not only the emissions that you are addressing but also the other benefit when you are doing better in terms of managing your landscape and that is people talk about co-benefit I will say that it's actually the main benefit where a carbon is just the carrot that will carry the car because the benefit is not that carrot the other things that you enjoy when you walk through that village lane thank you thank you very much sir thank you very interesting discussion I wanted to comment on a couple of the things that have been come up the first one was about the public funding to support the transition to agriculture it's been my view for a very long time since the beginning of red that the original design was fundamentally flawed because it was a sectoral approach and I think a lot of ministries of forestry jumped on board to it because they saw it even as a source of funding for forestry activities that had historically been so underfunded but if you step back and look at the drivers of deforestation most of the, not all but most of the drivers of deforestation were outside the forestry sector they were in agriculture, they were in mining and so conceptually the idea of red should be to modify the drivers and I think it does involve we did a major study a couple of years ago I'm happy to share at some point about all of the ways in which countries interested in red outcomes could alternatively spend the money of red and I think a lot of it is around agricultural transition but I think there's a highly simplistic model that's being promoted by some people out there that if we increase agricultural productivity it will magically convert into a reduction in deforestation and I think there's only a few places in the world with particular low populations and particularly alternative livelihoods where that is the case and I think one of the things that the real opportunity of landscape approaches in dealing with red is getting specific agreements between certain groups of farmers that they can get access to credit and technical assistance for conversion to sustainable agriculture in exchange for agreements around the conservation of forests and I think there's a number of very interesting places where that kind of arrangement's been done but I think we do need to think out of the box and think intersectorly I think it really helps us I would say that some of the challenges that you were posing for food security that's I think the thing we are centrally concerned about can be sometimes addressed through collaborative process among sectors you've seen it in the way that you've had collaborative process around pre-competitive value chain development I think you can address some of those issues but by no means all and I think personally that it's valuable to think of the landscapes as something nested within a larger green economy that has to set the rules of the game and even internationally to deal with trade so the last thing that I wanted to respond to was the question about the public sector foundation for private investment because I think this is something that does seem to be quite important to catalyze a lot of private sector investment certain things need to be in place but there is a limited amount of public sector funding and I think one of the things that I saw as a challenge in the Tanzanian example that I was just mentioning the green economy the group was recommending a whole range of public sector functions that we felt needed to be beefed up in order to enable an agricultural green growth strategy but the government really didn't have a lot of space in their capacity because the private sector companies that were basically being encouraged to come in and invest also had a long laundry list of demands that at least requests from the government around clarifying taxation around clarifying arrangements for what could be imported around clarifying arrangements for hiring expatriate experts they had a whole laundry list and when you were dangling the two or three billion dollars there was a tendency for those requirements and those subsidies they required government co-financing for infrastructure whereas one might be wanting for green economy to see co-financing of other kinds of investments the lack of having an integrated network of investments needed to be ended up taking up all the space in the subsidies all of that being more for some of these private sector investments rather than the smallholder investments or the ecosystem investments or some of the reorganizing your water utilization strategies for the country Thank you very much I just wanted to respond on the issue of governments and landscapes for example of Kenya because that's the country I come from although maybe it applies even to most of East Africa and other countries in Africa at the moment we have new constitutions and these new constitutions are actually recognizing communities if I am to take an example of Kenya we have the community land bill the community land bill is still a bill it's not yet been passed but it's very favorable for our lands the land tenure systems and it actually recognized our own governance systems traditional governance systems of land that is something that I think is really something very good for us as a community as pro-sterilist communities and I also want to say that we have ministries right now in Kenya we used to have the ministry of arid assaults arid and semi arid lands and we write our own sectional papers we have our own discussions we have our own debates this has now been replaced by something ministry of culture and something which is still okay because most of what we used to do under the assaults ministry is still very much pretty much the same so we feel that we are able to discuss our own issues whether it's red green economy and climate change adaptation and mitigation on our own what favors us as counties so we are now taking advantage of the opportunity we are having on devolution in Kenya the devolved governance now has given us powers to decide on our own to debate on our own issues and so the only thing we don't take control of is the national parks of course that was under the national governance which is fine that's still under our land but it was something that was taken a long time ago there's nothing we can do about it right now but there's a very big opportunity for us now to control our own economy our own land and to make decisions something very interesting that's happening in Kenya and I hope I'm not taking too much time is that now we have extractive industries oil has just been discovered in northern Kenya water has just been discovered again in northern Kenya and we have a lot of projects coming up the wind mills, the wind power I think Martin actually when he was in African bank development bank they funded that and so you can imagine the only thing that we did not like especially when it comes to all these developments and the lobster there is a corridor the world bank is giving a lot of money for making connecting Kenya and Ethiopia and Sudan that's the lab set and with all that it's passing through our land so we're losing a lot of grazing land what I was telling you they call idle land idle land it's not idle land it's grazing land and we're losing a lot of that and we did not have FPEC the free prior informed consent that is now something that we are fighting for and now that we have devolved governance we are able to say no so that is also an ongoing process and there are so many processes that are going on and we have opportunities to actually intervene and make decisions so we have some opportunities with this governance now thank you very good I think this is a very good discussion let me see if I can have a sort of midterm review of the discussion so far red is a very important undertaking but as Sarah reminded us most of the deforestation activities are driven by activities that are happening outside of the forest or coming to the forest from outside including mining, agriculture and so forth these are the drivers so they need to be taken into account and the management of the forest cannot be transformative unless we address these external factors what I also heard panelist saying that the issue of landscapes has to be taken there is an issue of scale in other words it works very well so far at the project level because that is a scale that is easier to handle and conceptually we have been working in projects but it also works at the regional scale as Sarah mentioned in the case of southern Tanzania we actually take a larger scale and we try to make it work there it actually should work at the national level and I would like to use the example and maybe ask Pahero to explain a little bit what Indonesia is doing for its one map concept where actually they are trying to bring coherence to the whole mapping system at the national level so that's a landscape approach looking at the national scale and saying we have to stop having sectoral maps agriculture, mining, forestry etc that do not speak to each other and we end up having chaos so let's have one map which will be the only reference at the national level but actually Pahero you also took the helicopter view or maybe the satellite view as you were supporting your president as co-chair of the high level panel where you actually saw half of the planet I guess it was daytime and then the night time we will see the other half of the planet and you actually came up with some suggestions about SDGs sustainable development goals we can say this also a landscape approach in the sense that we are trying to see to have more coherence into what we ought to do as human beings in order to safeguard our planet as a whole and some scientists have came up with this concept of planetary boundaries which is also a sort of landscape view of how we should manage our planet so I would like to bring the discussion back to you as panelists and see maybe you can unpack this issue of scale and see how it can work at different scales can I start with you Pahero very good Pahero by the way Pah in Bahasa Indonesia means sir so it's very interesting when you touch on the one map project or program we look into the maps that Indonesia have and some of the map is not only not talking to each other but contradict each other especially when you overlay that with the licenses that is given and so in some of the provinces or districts the amount of land that is available was actually less than what is given to the licenses so this is unacceptable and because of that the president said do a one map project with four ones first you have to have one reference second you have to have one standard third you have to have one typinology and the fourth you have to have one geoporta so that you can geoporta so basically what we are saying is that our map become very transparent everybody can make comments everybody can actually change as they say that this is not right go to the data custodian the data custodian will make a double check and then put the map corrections into that well this one map is actually starting with what we call the land shapes the basic map our map that is scaled 250,000 now built into a 50,000 with 67 layers of information on top of it so the information of licenses, information of mining information of forestry information of agriculture all put on top of that so you can say that actually the one map project is like a landscape project but within that you create the layers that needs to be done so landscape approach is not saying that it's only one sheet it has to be having all those layers being done as well now when we move into the global scale development goals for 2015 development agenda what will happen very strongly are actually three things it has to be sustainable, number one in terms of eradicating poverty as well and the second is that you are talking about global goal in national targets so even if you are talking about landscape approach you are not talking about one size that fits all you say that what is appropriate for that particular sub-landscape what is appropriate for that particular sub-landscape needs to be defined because otherwise the problem is not solved otherwise so the conflict will continue and the third process the third imperative is global partnership you have to do that globally so that WTO needs to be changed the rules of financial flow needs to be changed when you are talking about migration you are not only talking about workforce or poverty or remittance you have to see that from the whole concept of the human being well-being human well-being like the green economy was saying so if this complex once you get into a higher level it will be done but we have the ability to do it I think that is the challenge and if we have 190 cooks trying to prepare the same soup it will be very different it will be very difficult and that's what we are trying to address climate change with 190 countries trying to solve the same problem maybe the details are different from each country so landscape approach is an ideal it needs to be done needs to be continuously pushed into the real reality at the highest level start with a small level works, move out not only you are talking about the proof of concept you need to also do the proof of application is that applied what is good in Kenya is it applied for Indonesia what is good in Indonesia is it applied for Australia and so forth so this program this trajectory is actually talking about we cannot afford to not have UNEP we cannot afford to not have research done we cannot afford not to have programs and projects done at the level that we can learn from so I think that is the message they can give you thank you very much we do have some questions from twitter and I have one from Mario I am addressing it to Mario which is the following what is the link between red plus and the green economy is it true that in applying the green economy approach you could have a red plus program in a particular country or region or basin like so the Congo basin that would be beneficial to society we support local communities and we will contribute to national development plans based on sustainable development goals is that correct is it feasible or is it an illusion question and I think that question also connects to the previous question about scale and so let me provide an answer that maybe can be tweeted back that is that red plus is an important role to play as a catalyst and I think it will play a role as a catalyst beyond the carbon payments that may come at the end of the process I think this is something that both Martin and Bayeru were mentioning and it can play a role as a catalyst because it's bringing the political attention now on the need to address the drivers of the forestation and to do that in a way that will not undermine the economic development of the country but it will actually promote it in a way that will bring both social and environmental benefits and red can play a role as a catalyst also because it has already a critical mass of champions behind it that have passed the proof of concept passed the sniff test clearly this can be done and beyond that there is already I think a critical mass of investment from countries such as Norway and others real money on the table to invest early on on the public sector type of reforms that are needed at the beginning and to me then the way I would like to connect this to your question at scale is because if we want to succeed in achieving the overall ambition that is that of achieving sustainable developments in this lifetime and keeping this planet in a trajectory of less than 2 or 3 degrees temperature increase things needs to change in the next 10 to 20 years and so what is really needed is a tipping point is a tipping point that will allow these islands of performance these first 10 meters of the world that has been built to be scaled up and replicated at a pace that is unprecedented and that I think is something that red can catalyze because it can give the push at this point in time by bringing the political support that it has by bringing the champions that are standing behind it by bringing the initial early finance that is coming to really activate the replication of these activities in other countries and in other jurisdictions I was going to get back to the scale issue so I have a couple of thoughts that came up when we were discussing the issue of scale I don't think of landscape personally as a project I think because projects are usually short term and landscapes is about long term and landscape level stakeholder collaboration needs to be institutionalized and I think sometimes they have been promoted by projects sometimes they have been basically like what was just being described in Northern Kenya these are locally based institutions and I also tend to think of landscapes because they are sociological units of where people and ecosystems are interacting that is not necessarily at the level of the whole world but when I think about landscapes I do think about them being at quite varying scale because it is defined by the problem that the stakeholders are trying to achieve or the barrier and problem that the stakeholders are trying to address and so in the case of the corridor if it requires a shift at the level of an entire corridor I think you have got your green prosperity programs to quite large scale initiatives or if it is we really need to make sure this sub water shed gets the river running year round then it is the people who live within so it is quite variable and I think all of those groups and stakeholders can for example utilize the map that you produce but the map does not define the landscape it is the people that are using it to define the landscape but one of the things that I think I would say is there is a landscape approach there is a landscape perspective that is something that I think is important to go all the way up from national to global level if you are an agribusiness firm that is going to make an investment of a billion dollars to expand your access to cocoa or whatever it may be if your only thinking is I am wherever I invest there will be a monoculture of cocoa that will supply this supply chain and our resources will all be mobilized around cocoa it is a very different perspective than one where I know I will be investing in an area where high agro biodiversity will be important for resilience over the long term in this landscape I know we are going to have to be collaborating with other forest people and water managers in this the design of their investment would be different if they also have a landscape perspective and I think this work that the landscape for people food and nature initiative finance working group has been doing is suggesting that there really are some quite significant ways in which the structure of financing the criteria for financing the kind of data needed for those who are investing is quite different if you have a landscape perspective so it doesn't mean they are going to do their work or the national government will do their work in a way as you were describing here that actually empowers local people to make quite a lot of decisions about their future and to negotiate with external actors about the directions that they are moving so I think there is going to be a tension but hopefully a very innovative and constructive tension as we both catalyze the shift in institutions at those scales about stakeholders and landscapes to more systematically collaborate together around some common visions of what they want which will likely differ from place to place good excellent something tells me that people may want to ask additional questions so please be prepared I am going to give the floor back to the audience but before that Martin has something to say the question of scale I think using the public sector is something which is quite hard for private sector folks to get their heads around so for us it's more about if you like high quality success stories on a very local level I would say that's what we are striving to do we are striving to build successful businesses which are profitable which have positive environmental and social impacts but that happens regionally I would say even locally for us big scale is 45,000 hectares 45,000 small holders and that's big scale for us and so I think what happens on the scale of countries, regions, continents is something we don't really think very much about but it does have a relevance to us in the sense of course that we are potentially providing specific examples of successes in terms of how to build sustainable business when you look at it from a landscape perspective and so that's where the connection with the public sector I think is for us that once we are producing, building these businesses that is observed, watched, communicated and that we can get support from the public sector to diffuse success stories more largely and that's where the two agendas start to I think really intersect and there was a point related to the question you put about civil society which I didn't mention in my response and that is that what we are doing with Moringa is mainly applying for like a private sector mechanism to a particular challenge which is to invest in agroforestry businesses but we are doing that by using some public funds so our investor base includes public investors and private investors and they are channeling their funds both constituencies through that private sector mechanism but and this is rather obvious thing to say but at the end of the day they do expect us to give back the money that they invest in us so it's just I didn't really answer your question very well but they have given us that money because they think that in second or third stage when things have been proven to work well that they can step back and private money will then come in and all of those good things to do with she like catalytic effects on private money all that starts to happen right so we have a chance to wake up not live but wake up can we have the mic please anybody please Thank you Ms Brigitte from DRC I have one question because for me I think when a country decided to make some red plus activities if this country doesn't identify or doesn't want to address the driver of deforestation I think red plus is for me like utopies and my question is how can a country keep its additional of level reference of its forest in a poverty context where people need energy and food another question here Thanks very much the panel my name is Henry Tavoid I'm from a company in Global also another private sector actor looking to bring private capital to the landscape this landscape if you like so you've obviously been talking about a subject close to my heart and well done Martyn answering all the questions so beautifully and this might sound like a question that's going a little bit off topic but everybody's been talking about deforestation and the drivers of deforestation does anyone have any comments to hear if anyone has any comments about forest degradation and the importance of forest degradation at a landscape scale Any other question this may be the last round so please don't miss the opportunity here second row Hello my name is Rosemary Bissett and I'm from National Australia Bank and we have a large agricultural customer base but mostly in developed countries I think the focus on landscapes and developing countries is critical and we need to think of innovative ways to help make it happen but I have a question around the parallels to developed countries because if you think about the sustainable development goals what that will do is actually enlarge the concept of sustainable development to make sure we bring in developed countries and we have natural assets and resources in developed countries that are sadly still being degraded despite our developed country's status given the key learnings that are happening in developing countries what do you think the knowledge transfer may be back particularly from indigenous communities to developed countries so that what we don't get is a situation where developing countries are working like crazy to preserve their natural assets and we continue on a path of degradation in developed countries Hello, I'm Fabisi from Cameroon I'm a thank you for the fantastic presentations and discussions I'm looking at the topic landscape in the green economy I'm just wondering it is true that red is often cited as an example of an activity under a green economy agenda but in addition to that the speakers are talking about smallholder farmers, small scale agricultural activities what of this big government development agenda like in the Congo Basin where they have a very big vision of emerging in the coming years where do we have great issues like mining in a green economy agenda or within the landscape discussion is this an example or is it out of the loop Last question there, yes please I'm Jesse Gerstin from the Clinton Climate Initiative in Indonesia this is an open question we heard from we heard from Martin that the climate crisis doesn't necessarily line up with how private sector sees investments and my question is simply by having these discussions about landscapes do you think that we're distancing ourselves from the private sector we have a series of questions let's see how we can bundle them I don't think we can respond to them one by one but any of the panelists may want to address any of the questions that have been asked by the audience as raised by President from DRC we have a question about forest degradation we have I think the question is it's not only reduced emission from forest from deforestation but also from forest degradation SDGs are universal in nature so they are not only designed for developing countries it is also for industrialised countries and there is some knowledge that can be brought back from especially indigenous knowledge that could be shared with some developing countries is the issue of landscape not only focus or does it address the issue of mining and legal or illegal exploitation of resources and is the issue of landscape incompatible with private sector investment yes I'd like to address a couple of those I'll try to do it very briefly the first one is there's actually a lot more landscape activity in developed countries than I had any idea a few years ago there's actually quite an old European landscape convention that was signed by more countries that are in the EU actually the European Commission passed although its focus was more in conservation of landscapes and that whole model is apparently within Europe so it's very rethought to focus more also on some of these production and other activities and there is a proliferation of landscape initiatives and we've actually been approached by the EU some commission on agriculture and environment because they wanted to go and find the lessons from Kenya and from other places that were doing integrated landscape initiatives because they were using a subsidy approach to manage environmental issues in agriculture in terms of the mining question I just wanted to bring your attention I think it is one of the most complex issues about landscape collaboration whenever there's very large scale external investors that are almost by their nature degrading but the Gabarone declaration that was signed by heads of state in Africa last year actually had some very specific guidance around how to do what the expectation should be of how mining would be incorporated into the landscape so I just wanted to bring that to your attention and finally the question about private sector interest in landscape is one that has been of a lot of concern to the coalition of groups working with this landscapes for people through the nature initiative and we have a business working group that was asking this question because when we did a review in Latin American Africa the sample I was telling you about only 4% of the landscape initiatives in Latin America involved private companies and in Africa none of the ones we actually interviewed involved I think there was one that involved private companies so there was seriously a problem of major stakeholders in the landscapes not playing along in the game right so we commissioned the working group commissioned a review a scoping exercise and they actually found 27 companies that had this was international companies that were actively involved in landscape initiatives and the question was why did you do it? What was the business case for doing it and what came out of it that I won't go into all the details I do have the report here though what came out was the principal drivers for them getting involved is that they were reassessing the risks to their supply chains and many of them saw climate change community needs for communities and the things they were involved with and water has actually quite significant risks for them that they felt they could not manage only within their supply chain so they wanted to go out reach out to stakeholders outside their supply chains and we did a couple more in-depth interviews about the different modalities that they do it and quite interesting to me there's actually a lot of buzz around this at the sustainable food lab and now we were recently approached by Nestle's to try to pull together something that would bring more discussion with CEOs of companies both international and national so I actually think there are real concerns by the companies that have long term time horizons for supply chains that they are going to have to think beyond just the farmers that are producing for them. Excellent. Looking at my panelist to see this is your last chance also to say a few words because I need to give the floor to the reporter can you briefly address some of the questions Mario? Again all of them very good question maybe I'll focus on one that hasn't been touched yet which to do with knowledge transfer and knowledge management I think that's the essence and it's a fundamental area that we need to work on at every level transfer south south north south across constituency what we are attempting here is something that has never been done before it's you know for those familiar with the Kutznetz Curse a country will cut down its forest cover as it develops and then the forest will grow back as the country has developed what we're trying to do here is to tunnel through and to tunnel through at a scale in a time frame that is unprecedented so what we and what we have been doing even in the case of you know programs like the UN Red and the World Bank of CPF in the last five years is you know to work on what we call readiness and figure out how is it that you do this what is it that we can learn so that in the next five to ten years we can scale this up and clearly there's a lot that has been learned so far there's a lot of knowledge that is you know with indigenous people with communities with different stakeholders that hasn't made it up yet and so it's below the surface it's the bottom part of the iceberg and that is also one reason why we are facing you know still so much skepticism out there in terms of can these really be delivered in the time frame that we have so a major effort going forward is to make sure that you know the knowledge the know-how that has been produced in many cases in the heads of people is all connected is all made available because it is on that knowledge that we're going to give a future to read as a catalyst for a landscape approach as a catalyst for the green economy. I just want to add only one word to what Mario has said in connection to the sharing of knowledge I just want to emphasize and I always say this documentation and more documentation documentation of all our knowledge systems and then sharing of that knowledge very good thank you Martin just a comment on a couple of questions raised the forest degradation question it's a Moringa comment but we see that as an opportunity we can potentially prevent things from going further in the wrong direction and they have done already by implementing inside degraded forests cohesive agroforestry models which retain what is there and make that if you like a productive and stable agroforestry asset for the future so it's not quite your question but we see it as an opportunity to implement our strategy and then the other question about private sector whether the landscape discussion is a barrier to bring in the private sector the Moringa responses is simply no because our legitimacy if you like is a discussion and so that's where we find our place in intellectual and also from a business perspective and other perspectives exactly that discussion what I think is probably a bit tricky sometimes is that the meaning of words like landscape there were 80 definitions already mentioned particularly for private sector people that would be potentially a hard one to get their heads around and I think it's important that people make progress on defining what exactly the landscape approach involves and allow people to understand better what it means in recent times some of you may be familiar with some type of investor called an impact investor which is an investor who seeks environmental and social impact above all else in the past that has been and still is a misunderstood term whereby people don't understand that often you need to associate the financial side with that to have a sustainable model going on but much progress has been made and investors increasingly find their place and a more normal dialogue with groups like ours when it comes to understanding how they can contribute to us and what they get out of the Moringa approach and I think on the what I see happening in investment funds who are operating in landscape relevant areas is probably a kind of convergence in the coming years where we can understand better what it means those of us on the investment side who today are calling themselves an agri-fund a forestry fund, agri-forestry fund a carbon fund those models begin to converge as people better understand and can situate themselves better in this overall discussion and so whether we should call ourselves an agri-forestry fund or for example a resource efficiency fund is a discussion we have from time to time because it is a real discussion and things will evolve to a more common view of what funds can do in this area very good sir the approach that we are using in implementation in Indonesia is go beyond carbon and more than forest because if we stuck our head into the carbon issue we see very dark so we need to look beyond carbon the benefit other than carbon is important and because of that you are talking about what is happening with energy and food become natural so if you just look into red plus as a carbon driven thing then it's very difficult to resolve the competition and the complexity of food security and energy security but if you look at beyond carbon and more than just forest then you can see it in that context perhaps that is called the landscape approach so you are talking about red plus beyond carbon more than forest is the landscape approach more and more I see the blurring of the boundaries between red plus landscape approach and green economy because the green economy is actually what Sarah has mentioned landscape at the highest level is green economy so I think that is how it actually merged into that I would like to make a comment in terms of that knowledge sharing believe me not there is this sentiment that we don't want our knowledge to be stolen the consultant that comes in with the ODA is actually stealing our knowledge and being used somewhere else then we don't get the dividend for that knowledge I mean that is a strong feeling among the indigenous people around the world the approach of the sustainable development goals we have heard that and that is something that is very important I think it is very important to see that if the indigenous knowledge is being transported the only difference between this and the knowledge that is in the developing country it is not given the intellectual property rights well the intellectual property that it gets into the developing country you have to pay a lot of money why not the exchange so I think this needs to have some discussion as well how do you exchange this knowledge in a fair way so that the word can be what you call it the safe now in terms of distancing is landscape approach distancing the private sector I will comment I will say that I came from the private sector I was the managing partner of Accenture before my point there is that when you are talking about distancing maybe not distancing but making it more difficult making it more complex because the reality of life is really that complex you want to make profit you want to satisfy your stakeholder but at the same time you are the voice of your shareholders as well as the stakeholder so it's getting more complex but that's the nature of the beast the business moving forward is going to be more complex because we have screwed up the word so far sorry for the language but on the other side if we look into the private sector we can also group the private sector for the group that is in the sight of the drivers of deforestation directly or indirectly as I say is a driver of deforestation indirectly you deliver for instance is a driver of deforestation indirectly because they serve you all and me as well in terms of this consumption of palm oil that is driving the demand like hell because of the increase of the what you call it the increase of the middle class you serve the customer and because of that you drive the trees and now you try to stop them to correct them so it's actually the group of the drivers of deforestation I appeal for companies the private sector it's actually the drivers of red plus anyone drivers of red plus drivers that actually do the ecosystem restoration that's actually doing a lot and make use of that effort we benefit to create benefit and share the benefit so for those companies that is actually a driver of red plus getting the benefit that is according to the green economy landscape approach is the heaven is the ideal approach so it's not distancing but it is actually grabbing and embracing the private sector of the new kind thank you very much the closest of my panellists and the one I like the most is actually someone that I have not introduced yet and I would like to do so now because she has been taking note and she would need at least 10 minutes to report back to you on what you have heard so far Jane Feehan is natural resources specialist with the European investment where she has worked since 2008 she's a biologist she's a forester which I like a lot again and she works on the banks operation in the forest fisheries, rural development sectors both within and outside of Europe she has been extremely patient extremely focused and now I would like to give her the floor to us and I have my keys to Jane and a round of applause to you good afternoon everybody would you stand up it would be better to stand up that's true but I'm a little bit tied to my laptop here where all these notes are kept actually I could do that I would like to do my very best to live up to that so what I'd like to do is just spend a couple of minutes going through the main points that came out from my point of view from each of the presentations and also a couple of points from the discussion that ensued and I'd be delighted with any comments or feedback that you might have on the accuracy or otherwise of the points that I've chosen to bring out Ibrahim introduced our session by articulating the value of sustainable landscapes at the heart of a new economic paradigm that focuses on natural capital ecosystem services resource efficiency and social equity and there are three relevant concepts which overlap to a certain extent within this vision the landscapes approach red plus and green economy now as we've observed the boundaries between these are blurred and during this session we had the formidable I would say challenge of explaining defining demystifying and ultimately coordinating these three subjects or paradigms now in doing this our panel I think are to be complimented for keeping their feet firmly on the ground because I think a common theme which emerged is the need to retain the ability to telescope in and out out to the holistic integrated vision and into the on the ground practices on that farm in that forest in that village because it's here that the paradigm actually becomes reality so firstly our keynote speaker Mario some of the main points that came out from your presentation for me you mentioned Rachel Kite's passionate exposition of the triple bottom line of the landscapes approach and you recall this question you know if this is truly so why don't we see rapid upscaling it's a great question it deserves a great answer and you outlined five points which can bring us a bit closer to that firstly the business as usual is not an option and I think that we would all very much agree on that secondly green economy with its focus on socially and environmentally desirable outcomes thirdly the landscapes approach which can help us to avoid juxtaposing outcomes on a sector by sector basis rather to bring agriculture and forestry much closer together fourthly red, red plus of course in fact I was surprised that you didn't put that one first considering your role it was very modest and red plus which can serve as a catalyst for transformation towards the green economy and you elaborated on that very interestingly later and then fifthly this point which we returned to several times afterwards the merits of sequencing of public sector and private sector investments or the complementary roles that they can play which aren't necessarily parallel in time the need for public sector investment first to lower the barrier to private sector investment to establish favourable governance and to address land tenure issues followed then by private sector investment so these were the points which came out strongly for me so then Sarah the points that came out from your talk most clearly I think from my point of view you spoke to your work on gathering and communicating examples of how these principles can be implemented and on your work on characterising the approaches taken and most importantly perhaps enumerating some key success factors and this is clearly very valuable work you underlined your view that right now there is a particularly good climate for collaboration and really collaboration is what we're all about this weekend in this forum you mentioned two main examples firstly packed the packed group in the Brazilian rainforest which served as an umbrella for hundreds of organisations to come together and secondly in Tanzania the southern agricultural growth corridor which you described as having originally been conceived as a typical 1960s industrial development shall I delete that bit conventional but this in a location which has Ramsoil wetlands and has great potential for red plus and so began eco-agriculture partners work on developing a green growth orientated strategy in this location and you mentioned a number of lessons which emerge from this work the need to build on existing strengths scaling up activities which are already actually underway in the area rather than introducing completely new concepts secondly the importance of enabling factors such as extension systems and agricultural cooperatives and thirdly the screening of finance to make sure that finance which comes in is in compliance with with southern Tanzania's vision for agricultural green growth you also later touched on some components of the business case for a sustainable landscape so I found that very interesting as expounded in the report which you've recently produced it's your opportunity to plug it again I'm looking forward to reading it so then Martin you spoke about the Moringa fund your progress to date on the Moringa fund and really you're at the forefront of the development of a new asset class of sustainable landscape investments so I think we all found your insights very instructive in seeking to develop a fund which delivers a range of sustainable rural goods you described how your focus on agroforestry emerged from that and the Moringa fund was born and you emphasised that as well as developing a financially viable vehicle the fund also has the objective of demonstrating what this model can achieve and providing a proof of concept to pave the way for future scaling up an expansion of such an approach and it really is worth underlining that I think you presented Moringa as a vehicle which can deliver the triple bottom line then in the later discussions you elaborated on the importance of transparency and making the strategy and ultimately the investments themselves public and open to scrutiny and the need to demonstrate the solid benefits for society as well as the financial viability of course of the fund so moving on then to the next question I'm going to start by sharing this contribution you started with a very well I thought was a really important point that all these big terminologies are not in the lexicon of most pastoralists the pastoralists that you are working with but they are in fact embodying many of the good practices and the challenges which arise from the paradigms pastoralists in ICC are walking the walk we could say managing the land using traditional knowledge and you underlined that just because new technologies may come along that the traditional practices of course are still valuable perhaps even more so and they mustn't be lost in this era of change and the pressure to modernize you underlined the need to document practices and this knowledge and you also later you used the opportunity of the question and answer session to mention free prior informed consent and I was nodding in agreement at this because it is a fundamental principle for our work in the European investment bank for our investments in the agriculture and food sector this is one of our criteria and and you concluded by underlining the importance of consultation and participation to develop effective benefit sharing in a red plus framework and so coming to Pak Heru I cannot possibly do justice to your intervention but I'll try you mentioned the fact that the landscape vision is it has width but in fact to be truly effective it also needs depth you spoke about the zooming out and the zooming in the need to zoom out to retain or to underline let's say the value of the holistic landscape's view because this is the right perspective that we need to take but of course the zooming in is also essential because effective action happens at a very fine grain at local level you spoke about red plus and underlined the need for the right regulations strong institutions public support of the communities all these things have to be in place and that in fact finding and implementing solutions to these challenges I don't want to say problems challenges are really the core of the issue and you also spoke to the overlaps or synergies between green economy landscape approach and red plus and disagreed with the strictly sequential approach of public and private funding and argued rather that public and private funding should work hand in hand and a final point that you made later in the discussion which was important one I think was you alluded to food security and the fact that the landscape's approach in and of itself is not enough to ensure food security and you cautioned against simplistic assumptions around this extremely important issue so coming towards a conclusion I would like to pick one question which was asked by the lady towards the back of the room later thank you you pointed to the danger that these paradigms can describe an unattainable utopia potentially again underlining the importance of focusing on how these paradigms actually translate into tangible practices in real communities and from my point of view certainly the definition of investment needs that arise that are needed to support those people so returning to Ibrahim's challenge to this session to explain, define, demystify and coordinate the concepts of green economy, red and the landscape's approach let's always remember to translate what these paradigms mean for that farm that village and that forest thank you very much please stay there isn't it fantastic even those who were not here at the beginning of this session had a full restitution and actually it's much simpler when it is presented so nicely thank you very much Jane for that please give round of applause to Jane to Paheu, to Sarah to Mario, to Agnes and to Martin thank you very much for this and thank you also to Tim for having organized it the report will be posted in an hour from now thanks to Jane to the global organizer thank you very much