 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be. And don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. While I was in Cyprus, a lot of people I knew were experimenting with the smoking pot and they were starting to crack, taking a bit of fat in. I tried a bit when I was on leave on that particular leave where I met this girl. And I didn't know what was going on. It was like, wow, this is amazing. You know, so I started experimenting with drugs as well. And I thought, I can't do the both. I can't serve in the forces and have this lifestyle because if I get caught, kicked out, I lose everything. And then I got to this club. And we used to go there all the time and one of the lads said, oh, you've finished your shift? I said, yeah, I'm done there, mate. So, and he looked hammered. I said, what are you fucking on, mate? He's like, we've had a pill. I said, oh, really? He said, yeah, I said, you want one? I went, I don't know. I said, yeah, why not fuck it? First time I've ever seen proper coke was when this guy dropped the keel around and sat on that and we opened it. Took the rubber jackets off of it and all the fucking tape and all the plastic which were pressed onto it and peeled it away. And it's just like a grainy look on there. And so I thought, fucking hell, look at that. You could take on two kilos costing you 100 grand, save for argument's sake. You could make 30, 40 grand on that. You could make more. I really liked the idea of a challenge. And I know it's my life I'm playing with, but I love the idea of thinking, can I fucking wing this? Because I knew that I was risking your life. Yeah, I felt it was all right. I thought, yeah, I know I'm gonna be fine. I know I'm in trouble, but I like tearing on the edge of that fucking knife edge. I know that this is where, that's where I like to be. I like to be in that little zone where if you go that way, you're all right. If you go that way, you're fucked. Did you know what your name was wrong then, but you still wanted to be part of something? Yeah, the sort of right wrong didn't really come into it. I knew that it was wrong because, because I knew, but it didn't feel wrong every single fucking day. I was worried that if he finds out what I've turned into, he's never gonna forgive me. Boomerang, today's guest, we've got Rich Jones. How are you, Rich? How are you doing mate, you okay? Good, thanks. How's life? It's all right, yeah, yeah, it's good. Slow and steady. So the lost soldier? Yeah. Done nearly 10 years in the army, nearly 15 years in prison for a conspiracy to sell drugs. Yep. I think you've done about a close protection stuff as well, bodyguard. Yeah, yeah, when I came out of the forces, it was like the natural thing to do. It felt right. I wasn't gonna go into any sort of manual trade. I thought, well, let's have a look at that. And it was daft because at the time it was 94. And there's a film out of Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner, the bodyguard. Yeah, that's sort of like, it stuck in me head of, oh, that looks like a really good life. And you get given a budget from the forces. When you leave, they say, look, you can look for this big man, you'll undecide what you can do. So we had a look and the budget was, I think about two and a half grand, give or take. And it was affordable to do this course with the ex-SBS down in the hotel in Majston. And we jumped on it, me and another lad. And it was all right. So if I'm a journey, you don't seem the kind of guy, you're very well-spoken, very articulate to then being army man, to then being in prison, conspiracy charges, conspiracy's a bastard, that's the worst one. It's horrible, mate. So I'll go back to the start for my guest though, brother. Yeah, you grew up in how it all began. Yes, mate. Right, yeah, so I mean, I grew up in Bristol, as you can tell. And it was a normal childhood. It wasn't anything wild about it. I mean, my dad had a good job. He was in the police force. That copper as well. Yeah, which is the irony of that. So we had a good background. It was all going well. It was in the 70s and the 80s. And it was going well until my mum and dad split when I was 14. It was on the cards, because life is a copper back and those. That was a fucking tough life to have. It was hands-on policing. It wasn't like pepper sprays and tasers. It was like truncheons and fists. So we had a hard life and he used to drink a lot, but it doesn't mean that he was a drunk, but the lifestyle then was finished the shift, go get drunk or go play rugby. So marriage is on the, marriage in any police force, military, the stats are low to get through it. So yeah, when I was 14, mum and dad split, me mum left, my dad had custody of me and my brother. And we kind of like being the kids of someone in the police. You learn to be evasive from a very young age, because if you fuck that up, there's a good chance you're going to get found out. So we learned to be evasive and a little bit sneaky. So when my mum and dad split, I kind of started to go off the rails a little bit. What were you? Started bunking off school, which wasn't the intention. I kind of like, me dad ran the school up and said, look, he spoke to my tutor. He said that riches would, I go through a divorce. Can you keep an arm rich? He might be a bit upset at times. I was quite devastated by the whole thing. I'm not blaming that for how things turned out, but that's just the way it goes. So the teachers kind of give me a little bit of slack. And I think there was one occasion, and I'm just, I'm not guessing, but I'm trying to cast me on back a long time. I was late for a tutor, for a register. And he said, I don't know what I got. And he said, don't worry, it's okay. We know what you're going through. I thought, all right, okay. I don't know if I can push this. And then a couple of guys I knew were bunking off at the time. And I said, look, do you want to bunk off for the morning? I thought, well, let's give it a go. So I did, and we never got a fine night. So I was doing it more often. And this is right at the crucial stage of my education. It was right in, you know, I was 14, leading the 15, we're looking at mock exams, looking at back then it was, it was CSEs and O-levels, I think, back then in the 80s. So really I completely balled up my whole education by really sort of not paying attention. And I had no interest in the kind of jobs that were being offered to guys and girls of that era. We're very generic. You know, it's like if you're a guy who's going to be a brickie or a plasterer, you're going to be some kind of like tradesman. I thought, well, I'm not really interested in that. It doesn't bother me at all. So really I was just drifting in and out of different things. So I've knocked up my education. Didn't know what to do for a job. And at the same time, my dad had met someone else when I was about 16, 17. And... Did that affect you? It did. Well, the funny thing is the first person that he met was good as gold. She was brilliant, you know. I really got on with her. She was a lovely woman. She got me a job working in Bristol Airport, funnily enough, as a kitchen porter. It was my first job at 16. She was amazing. And she was really good for my dad. And then that broke when my dad was on a course in London, somebody met someone else. She was from Sweden. Oh, that sounds all right. And he ended up getting with this Swedish woman. And the problem we found was that she was a lot younger than my dad. Not a problem if you're my dad, that's great. But for me as a 17-year-old, and she was, I think, 26, she was near my age and my dad's. And there was a conflict. I wasn't easy anyway at 17. I wasn't saying I was a horrible kid, just being a teenager. And she didn't know how to cope with me. And it's not her fault. And look back now, I think, fuck, that must be really hard work to deal with me. So we weren't getting on. So my dad was having to sort of make decisions about who does he decide to, who is he gonna side with? Who is he gonna work with? Does he believe his son? Does he believe his wife? So I was this thing where I was hating my jobs that much. The first job I had, I was welding on an apprenticeship for 25 quid a week. And it's fucking awful. It just wasn't enjoyable. And so I started bunking off from that. And I got cool by my dad. And he gave me a proper bollock in. I thought, fair enough, we're doing that again. Three months later on, I got another job. I started bunking off from that as well. I just didn't want to settle. So my stepmom said, look, you've been found out again. We know you're not going to work. She said, why don't you join the army? And I thought, that's not a bad idea. I'll get away from you for starters and I'll maybe just not quite get through the whole process. My aim wasn't to actually join the army. She said, get me down off me back. So maybe sort of go through the motions. You know, go to the careers office, have a chat, see what's going on. And then next thing I know, I passed all of the tests and they weren't hard. The up to chest, that wasn't hard. And then I'm off to Sutton Colford for I think 36 hours to do like a one and a half days worth of fitness and assessments. And that wasn't overly difficult. My fitness wasn't on peak, but it was enough to get me through the door. And what I found was I was getting ready for close to go for basic training in 1988. And someone said to me, one of the clubs, I was like clubbing with my friends. And they said, I said, Rich, you'll never get through it. You won't do it. I don't think you've got it in you. And that just turned me. I thought, fuck you, I will do this. So I got the basic and I just kind of like, I didn't sail it, it was really hard. It was in the 80s when the NCOs were allowed to punch you if you got it wrong. They could literally could stand there and whack you in the gut's chin, yeah? If you got something wrong. So it wasn't easy, but it was doable. So I got through basic and that was life-changing for me. And I think the bit that got me the most, I think the first time was we passed out. It was July the 3rd, 88. And all through, I ran about not far off now actually, all through the whole of the training, it was beautiful sunshine, really hot. And we got to the pass out parade as on a Friday and it was pissing down with rain, absolutely hammering it down with rain. So hard it was raining up on the square and like it sort of missed on the deck. And we were marching around doing the pass out parade and my dad was there with my step-mom, my nan, my brother and a few other family members. And we do the bit where we do the, we go past, it's called the carriage show, we do what's known as an eyes right. And it's where you salute your superior officer and you kind of show respect to the people that are there. And they said, prior to the parade, they said, whatever you do, don't look at your family because you will get emotional. There's a good chance you're going to, you're going to lose it on parade. So we marched along and they said, oh, he's right, look across, caught my dad straight in the eye and he could see he was well in that. I thought, wow, he's really proud. And the first time ever, I saw my dad being proud of me. And I thought, I think I've made the right choice here. Going into the army, I've made the right choice. Might have been the wrong reason to go in, but I think I've made the right choice. So dad's tricked on you? No, not really. He was really good. He wasn't strict. There was never any kind of, there was never any beatings. And my dad's never hit me. Never laid a hand on me. It wasn't necessary because I've always had a massive respect for me, dad. But I just kind of wanted, I guess I just always wanted to impress him and bounce him between jobs when I was a kid. I just wasn't doing the job. I realised then that I wasn't wired up for doing that kind of work. Was there much love, attention? There was a lot of abandonment from your dad? There was plenty of love. There was no shortage of a loving background. My mum moved away, but we did see her occasionally, which again, me and my mum get on really well. There's no problems there. I think the problem we had is when my dad took custody of my brother and myself, he was working full-time hours. So we had a lot of family looking after us because although he was there, he's also away a lot. So it kind of like became slightly detached from the whole family thing. So my sort of vision of what a family unit was no longer existed is a mum, a dad, me and my brother. That was my family. And once that was ripped apart, and I say ripped because that's how it felt at the time, my idea of a family just kind of got a little bit fractured and a little bit confused. So I didn't, and I'm still the same now. I'm quite a bit of a nomad. Although I've got my kids and my ex-wife and we're all very, very close, I don't really engage well with family occasions because I just don't feel that family, I'm beginning to feel it more now, but I didn't feel it then. So do you see a lot of yourself in your dad? Yeah, too much, too much. Broken relationships, kind of ex-waves, girlfriends. Yeah, the way that we are as well with our perception in life, how we approach things. And my dad's had a major stroke now, and a while ago, he's paralyzed, but he still communicates, he's still my dad. And I still see me in him and he sees him in me if you like. We're very alike, although I'm slightly wired up, wrong compared to my dad's a really, really good person, very good person. And I believe I am as well, but we've got this little element in us which kind of like strays off piece slightly every now and again. And I just couldn't control that. How, what regiment did you serve in? So I joined the N88, the third row tank regiment. And what's that? So basically we were based over in Germany and we're working on challenger tanks. So I went in as a tank gunner. So when you finish basic training, you get to go trade training, which means if you go in as an infantry soldier, you do your basic training, although it's quite extensive, as a tanky, we go in as a gunner or a driver. So I was a gunner. And it's a great job and it's amazing working as a turret of a tank. It's something else. You get in there, you got all the kit, all the machinery, all the different sites. And it's a good place to, well, it's not a good place to get hit because a great place, if you just want to experience something different, so yeah, as a tank soldier, we were based in Germany during the Cold War. A lot of people probably won't even remember what that is. We were in a sort of called BAOR, which is British Army on the Rhine. Is that in the 80s? When was that? Yeah, that was in the late 80s, 88. I left in 95. So yeah, all through until about 92 when, say the Berlin war came down in 89. That's when it changed significantly. There were like the time over in Germany, about 55,000 strong British soldiers in Germany alone heading up the sort of front against what used to be the Warsaw Pact, Russia and the communist state. So a lot of us over there, so that really went on. And once that kind of war came down in 89, a lot of things started changing. The military started to pull out, reduce the size of the forces which they've been building up over years. Well, we don't need this anymore. There's no threat. Why spend money on an army we don't need. So that created its own sort of set of problems. A lot of conflict? Yeah, lots of different conflicts in town, especially with lots of board squads usually with the jocks. Yeah? Yeah. I've done some social media with it. RHF, Black Watch, make these guys are just done real. Now Glasgow based as well, and we were told when you get based in Germany, Rosenheimer, which was near, near Dortmund is the biggest place I can think of near it. We're told whatever you do, when you get posted or you go anywhere, just don't go anywhere where the Black Watch are. Even worse still, don't go near the Royal Highland Fusiliers because they have a fucking nightmare. A lot of the SCS, a lot of Scottish police, tough bastards, man. Anybody in the army are tough bastards. So when you go to the army, you've got to kind of be psychotic. You've kind of got to have wires, I missed. You've got to go to war zones and thrive on that. Ain't normal behavior. Some do has to do it. But everybody I've had on who's served in the military listening to the sound, nicest guys you can meet, but you can tell that they're red. Something loose. Yeah, something kind of fucked up. Like I tried to join the Marines actually when I was 17 or 18, but I went to the test fucking steaming, I think I was 18. And they were just fucking around, but I was just wanting to get away and just came to do something with life, but it fell through, thank God. Yeah, it's weird because, yeah, lots of the guys I've served with all over the country, a lot of guys from Scotland in my regiment because that's sometimes out of force. I mean, generally speaking from the catchment area when you join up, depending on where you're geographically would depend on what regiment you would go in. It's not so much now because it's kind of all lots of really big battalions and different regiments. But at the time for RTR was the Scottish Regiment. That was what it was. If you were going to go into for it, you were from Scotland and that's how it was. And if you weren't from Scotland, you're going for it or you're fucked because you're not a jock and that's how it goes. But yeah, some of the guys I served with from Scotland are unreal. My one of my tank commanders, funnily enough, we called him jock. Can't think why. He was an ex-parer and he was in the Falklands. Parer's a tough bastard. Yeah, this guy was something else, mate. Why are the parers always fighting? It's what they do, isn't it? Why is that? Every parer I have now, man, they're always scrapping. Even inside, even while they're on-camp or whatever they're doing, even when they come back, they're constantly fighting. Do you know what the rule of thumb is with squaddies, with the infantry especially? And most of the parers is if you're out on the piss and you're in a bar or a club, the infantry will fight the tankies or the engineers or the artillery. If none of those are there, they'll fight someone else, another infantry unit. If there's no more infantry, they'll fight another company in their own unit. If there's no other company, they'll fight someone in their own platoon. If there's no other, they'll fight each other. They just love fighting and they just find someone to scrap with. I've been in the bars in Germany and it's just waiting to go off. You just know someone's gonna light that tinder and it's gonna go off any second. And you just stand there. It's like being in the wild west saloon. You think in any minute, you could sense it. You walk into the bar, you think, fuck infantry there, or tankies there, or engineers there. I thought it was gonna be fucking chaos tonight. So what happens if they're on troops or fighting with each other? Does that get reported or do you just have to rest? It just, that's just the way it goes, you know? Just accepted. Yeah, turn up and pray with bruises, cuts, fucking teeth missing, busted noses. As long as you clean shaven in your kit's press, they don't care what you look like. That's bad on that. Yeah. How long did you serve, seven and a half years? Why did you leave? Tough one. Well, not tough one. There was a number of different reasons. The first one was, as I said, were these defense cuts with the Berlin Wall coming down. The army had changed quite significantly from the army I joined in the 80s to the army that it was now. It was changing in a sense of different characters, different people. They did a lot of phased out redundancies during the early 90s. And a lot of people that left took redundancy with senior ranks, say, sergeants, corporal staff sergeants. Now these are the guys that held that regiment together with their experience. So what you ended up with, a lot of people which were fairly junior in their position, and they were very career-minded, which is fair enough, but they took away all the dead wood. Well, that's what they referred to. We're gonna weed out the dead wood. But this dead wood were the characters. They're the people that made it fun. They're the people that would turn a blind eye if you fucked up. So we had this career-minded people in there. And so if you fucked up, they would give you a bollocking. They'd charge you because they wanted to be seen to be doing their job properly. So that was one sort of fundamental change in the forces, which I just didn't like. And it wasn't me. It was a lot of other people that St. Tom thought, that is a shit. It's not what it was. I mean, it never will be. And then we did six months in Cyprus with the UN in 1993. And that was amazing. It was six months on the piss in the sun. It wasn't a toy. We got a medal, but it's not really a medal. It's like just a token gesture to say, yeah, thanks for coming over and getting drunk for six months, you know? And that for me, I became unhinged on that. I got in a lot of trouble in Cyprus. Why? I enjoyed Iron Appa a lot. Now we had the army made this, and it's not a stupid mistake, but they had this notion that they'll have something called troop flats. So because we're always gonna be over there in some capacity, your regiment would then rent out a block of holiday apartments, if you like, in Limassol and Iron Appa, two of the biggest resorts in Cyprus. And we'd have every sort of like, our rotors was we'd do three days patrol, three days on the gate, which is doing a century duty on the gates of the camp, three days off. So every six days you're off on the piss down to, and Limassol initially, because we got there in, I think it was the backend of November 1993. So down to Limassol. And I used to have loads of lovely dark hair back in day, and I was growing it long. You know, I was growing it longer because I wasn't under the British army, I was under the UN. I said, put on my berry and hide it. So I wanted to put my berry off. I didn't look like a squad, I had loads of dark hair. And this sort of thing I did, we used to go to Limassol, and there was a bar in there called Piccadilly's on the main drag. And we were really good at bullshitting as squadders. And there's something we do. We're lied to get free stuff. We're lied to get ourselves out of jail. We're lied to impress a bird if we need to. That's just squaddy behaviour. And I came out of this absolute fucking whopper. I was down there on a six day leave. And I was getting on really well with the locals down there. And the reason I was getting on was because I told them I was half siper yet. And I came out of this dirty, very big fat lie. And I basically said to the staff that I was a girl called Susan. She was from Scotland, actually. I've worked in Beyond the Bar. She said, oh, so what's your story then? And I said, ah, it's a long one. So I give you the brief version. So basically my dad was over here in the forces back in the late 60s, early 70s. He said, yeah, yeah. And so basically he met a local woman in Farm Augusta. And I was a result of that encounter. So what the problem we had was when the Turks invaded in, I think the mid 70s, 75, I think, is when they came over the Kyrenian Mountains and invaded Cyprus. My dad was given the option. The best thing you do is to pull out of Cyprus, take your son with you because we've been invaded. As I've never saw him again. So I kind of told him this really bad little white lie because I just wanted to get free drinks, but they bought it really well. So I don't feel bad now. So much so that when I wasn't staying in the troop flats, they said, well, come and stay in our house with my family. So I was actually staying in, there's a track where he was called Paris. Really nice guy. So come stay with my family. I said, we were so sorry for what happened to your mum. I said, well, I don't even know if she's around anymore. I think, how do I get out of this one? So staying in his house. And the only way I could kind of make up for it was because I was with the UN, they knew I was with the UN. I said, where did you come from in Cyprus? So they said, we used to live in the North. So can you get me the address? So we can give you a map and show you where the village was. We can draw where the house was. I said, well, I'm next on patrol. I'll go over there. I'll find your house for you. Because the Northern Alpha Cyprus back then was more or less like a big military camp. There was not a lot going on. So I was in command of this patrol at the Mitsubishi Pizzeria, right? Roof down. Really nice day. I said to the guidance, look, mate, we're going to do something different today. So also we're going into the North. We're going to find, it's only like five or six Ks beyond the border we call the buffer zone. So we're going to fuck off over there. We're going to find these addresses. We're going to take some photographs. So yeah, no worries, mates. We did that one. It's a bit of a jolly into the Northern Alpha Cyprus. We found this village. So we had a map which was in English on the Cypriot half. Got onto the Turkish. We had to buy another map with the Turkish run because all the signs were in Turkish. So we had to buy another map again and compare the two. We found this village and it was run down. Basically it was lived in, but it wasn't. It's like, you know, like some other video game. It'd been run down the Zerbergring bushes everywhere, trees in the middle of the road. You know, so we drove through this. We looked at the map they'd drawn. We found what we thought was their house. Took some photographs of it on the old 35 mil photograph of the town hall, the local school. None of it. It wasn't all derelict, but it just wasn't being used, you know? Put it in the camera and that was it. Went back in six days later on, I went back down to Limasol. So there's gave him the film. So there's the film, mate. I said, I hope I find it for you. Carried on me weekend and went back six days later on, I went back down again. And I saw him. He said, you find it. You find our house. And that's the first time we've seen it in, that was in 1993. It's first time, what, 20, 22 years they've seen their house. They literally fled it with a bag. That's when they last saw it. So then their mate, another graph, another, but I said, can you go over and find my house? So I felt this kind of obligation then to go and start tracking down their old houses and photographs. I did a couple more of those. Try to do your good deeds back. I kind of did. Yeah, karma in there, you know? So that was my, and so I was kind of off the rails of Cyprus. I really, I was just wasn't, I was doing my job. But when I was, when I wasn't working, I was just, I was caught sleeping on the gate on duty and stuff like that. Cause I was too drunk. I drove back from Limasol. Absolutely assholeed. So I was just trying to get, you know, trying to get me anywhere with someone. And I, you know, the night was getting, I was due on guard at like half seven. I left there at like five still plastered. And I was on the gate at half seven drunk. So I was just doing stupid things, making bad decisions. So that, when I land back in Germany, after having six months of sun and partying, it was raining. I thought, oh, this is fucking awful. But I was, we're going on leave now. So we had like three weeks sort of disembarkation leave where we just, we had our operational tour. We're now going to go on block leave for three weeks. Went on leave and met a girl. And that's not a rare occasion, but I tried on a number of occasions to have a long-term, a long distance relationship. And this was before mobile phones. It was all like queuing up on the phones in the camp. You know, so you put your five Dutch marks in there at last 10 minutes using the other channel. I love you, all that sort of thing. That's your relationship. It just doesn't work. So I met this girl and I thought, oh, this is the one for me. So I sort of fell head over heels in love or thought I did back to Germany. And I was just like, you know, I just had a smacked ass. I thought I just don't want to do this anymore. Yeah. And at the time we're starting to a double with drugs. You know, my mates, while I was in Cyprus, a lot of people I knew were experimenting with the smoking pot and they were starting to crack, taking a bit of fat in. I tried a bit when I was on leave on that particular leave where I met this girl. And I didn't know what was going on. It was like, wow, this is amazing. You know, so starting to experiment with drugs as well. And I thought I can't do the both. I can't serve in the forces and have this lifestyle because if I get caught, kicked out, I lose everything. So all these different things added together, I thought I'd have to get out. I've got no choice with meeting this girl, hating Germany, loving Cyprus, messing with drugs, the lack of promotion because of these defense cuts. I thought it's too much. And I can't see me move and progress on any further in the army. Promotion was for at least four or five years. I was due my second stripe. It wasn't going to happen. I thought, fuck it, I'll just get out, make a break for it now. So I did a left in 95. Could you re-walk here? Did you have to go re-walk? No, fine, just gave me notice in. 94, I went in, got back from leave. Literally that day, I got back down in the camp and I said to me, troops sergeant, I'm getting out, I've had enough. He said, right, go and get yourself to RHQ. You go into RHQ, which is where all the admin staff are. And just walk in and say, I want to get out, I want to sign off. So you've got to give a year's notice. And you've got to work a year then. You can't just sort of like, so I'm going, fuck that, I'm off. You could, you could go able, but you're not getting out of the right way. So I signed off for a year. That's when you start your resettlement, but it's not really resettlement. Like I said, they give you this folder full of what you can do for a course. And that's it. That was the resettlement. Seven and a half years, see you later, fuck off. Yeah, see you later, mate. That was it. How about happens then? What was your life like then? If you're just starting to get a taste of the party and then leave, did you leave because of the bud? Yeah, but that she was, she was the kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back. So we got together, didn't work out, it never does, you know? So that lasted about another year cause my life was going safe quickly. It was really going, it was, how can I put it? Cause I left early. My first tank commander was at the time of me leaving was the regimental sergeant major. He's the boss. He got the commandant officer who's in charge of the regiment of the RSM. He's the one that really is in charge of the troops. So he's the one that you fear. But he was my tank commander. And I went and saw him. I'd recently lost my uncle. My mom's brother had died. So I'd lost my uncle. I'd been on a compassionate leave. And I'd had my leaving date was the beginning of August with four weeks termination leave. And then I sort of added in a couple more weeks into that because I was due some leave over the year. They calculated what was left. Well, you can leave mid July for it fair enough. So I went and saw myself and I said, look, boss, can I just fuck off? So our regiment are in Canada doing, providing enemy for other units. It's like a sort of thing, like an exercise. We're back in the regiment. It's done a skeleton crew, like a rear pass. There's only a few of us there. Like maybe a hundred guys, man in the regiment. There's no one there I know. And he said, he said, have you got anything you need to do? I said, I've done everything I can. I just, there's nothing I can do. I said, I want to get back. You know, I've got things to do. I said, my mum's in bits because of my uncle and everything else. He said, pack your bags and you can get on your way next week. I was like the next couple of days and literally within a week I was gone. So I ended up leaving about June, what's about June the 15th? So I had then June the 15th, July, August, September, about three and a half months paid by the army still on the payroll until the end of September. I was doing door work, getting paid cash. I was doing, starting to do some surveillance work and I started a branch into doing some CP work as well. So money was coming from every angle. So I was focusing on work at the time and my new relationship. But my mates were going out and that's when I discovered ecstasy. Not immediately I was doing the door work. I was taking a bit of amphetamine when I was on the door, which was really bad for paranoia, but great for like that sense of wellbeing initially. And then I got to this club and we used to go there all the time and one of the lads said, oh, you finished your shift? I said, yeah, I'm done now mate. He saw and he looked hammered. I said, what are you fucking on mate? He said, we've had a pill. I said, oh, really? He said, yeah. I said, do you want one? I went, I don't know. I said, yeah, why not fuck it? So he disappeared as he do, vanished for a little while. He came back and he yelled his hand out. He said, here you go mate. Chucked him a fucking tenner or whatever it was. I said, what are you, you got a dirty dollars? He said, what's that mean? He said, just eat it. So I necked it. And there's this sort of sense of trepidation, isn't it? You're waiting, you're thinking, what's it going to be like? I've never, I've heard so much about these things. You know, I just didn't know what I was going to expect. And I remember I stood upstairs and the DJ was downstairs. I like, I'll never forget it. Also, I could hear the conversations on the other side of the club. Why the fuck can I hear them? I couldn't, but I could hear everything. Everything was amplified in my head. I thought, I could hear everyone's voices. And then the DJ's voice and he spoke and it was, I've never heard anything so loud and booming. It was like, it was just flying. I thought, what the fuck is going on? And then everything started to go nuts. I thought, is this what it's all about? And then I said, I said, I've got to go dance. And he said, well, I come down here. So we went down, we went downstairs to the dance floor. And there's two lads. Stood on the podium, big geezers, bold heads, shirts off as standard practice. And I thought, fucking hell, these guys are, look at that, they're flying. So that's the guys you got your pill from. And they were in the middle of this, this whole like gathering of people. And they were like, the focal point. And then we made one over and saw him as he introduced me. That's my mate Rich, he's just got out of the army. Big hugs all round. And I thought, I really like what they're doing there. And I don't necessarily want to be set of attention, but I'm really enjoying what these guys have got going on here. Cause when I come on leave and I'm with my mates, I'm not, although I'm welcomed them and part of that group of people, you're not part of that group of people. Cause you're not, you're like this little satellite on the outside that kind of like, trying to catch up with everyone's current affairs. Who's going out of who, who's working. You don't know anyone, they're your friends, but you don't really know them because their lives have been moving on on a different path. Whereas my life in the forces, it is what it is, it's different. You know, so I don't really know them anymore. So you don't feel like you're part of this gathering. And then what happened when I sort of took this pill, all of a sudden I'm the same as everyone else. I'm part of this gathering. I'm part of this collective. I ruled that, saying they were all having a good time and I think, wow, this is, and it made me feel part of something again, which I started to miss. I didn't know I was missing it, but I must have been subconsciously. Only. Yeah, a little bit. I think it was a case of figuring out where I'm supposed to fit in. What do I do? Because the army does a really good job of making you think you're really good and better than everyone else, but we're not, we're just people, but we're just prepared to go a little bit further to do what needs to be done. So you're kind of good or bad. The army puts you on a pedestal and you got this ridiculous notion that you're better. So I'm not saying that you look down on people, but what you're saying is like, I'm not like these people. It was the classic case of you weren't there, man. You don't know what I've seen. You didn't know what I've done. You don't understand the things I've seen and experienced in my time. Not to mention what happens in a naffy bar. You don't know what I've been through. So you kind of, you can isolate yourself without knowing it. That difficult to try and get back into normal society to then being alone, not having your comrades around you. Still can't. Still can't do it now. You know, I'm not a part of, although I've got friends, family, and I engage and I get on and we laugh and we joke. If there's a group of people there, you know, and there's like seven or eight guys, I mean, I'll take work, for example, we've got a crew of lads, good as gold, they'll all stand around chatting and gassing. And I don't feel like I'm part of that group because I purposely will move myself away from it. And I don't know why I do it. I sometimes realise, why am I standing there? Why am I doing something different? Why am I still working when these guys are resting? And it's not because they're lazy or they don't want to be a part of it. I just subconsciously sort of separate myself from other people, groups of people because I don't know where I should fit in. I don't know how I should be a part of that group because I don't know where, it's not a hierarchy and it's certainly not the alpha male, beta male, omega. It's none of that. It's just, I don't know where I'll fit in with these guys. But it's okay not to fit in. It's okay to feel different, it's okay to feel alone, it's okay not to feel appreciated that it is okay as long as you're confident within yourself, which is difficult because we want to fit in because we feel as if peer pressure, you're taking an ecstasy to fit in with other people. But you'll tend to see those people you were taking ecstasy with, what are they doing with their life now? Well, this is it. Some of them are still probably still doing it. And it was weird, but it didn't, I don't think it affected me too much mentally or I didn't think it did. But I think the isolation I find from speaking to other veterans is something that we do have to deal with. That's why when we meet another veteran we sort of like instantly get on. No matter what a background is, no matter where we've been, what unit we're in, you've got that common ground straight away. I think that's what I lack is joining up at a certain age, it can have a profound effect on your mentality. So much so that it's very difficult to unwire that kind of hard wiring that goes into your basic training. It's like mass conditioning. You've got 30 recruits and they take you through this process where they just beat you down mentally, physically. So you're all nothing left in the tank. You're low, you're low, you're crap. And then you work together as a team and build yourself up. So you become brothers in that sense. I think that's where when you come out you miss that thing because these people haven't been through that. So you automatically sort of think, well, how can I relate to these people? You can quite easily because you've got common interest but I guess maybe part of me is I tend to be more of a listen more than talk. Not that you know that right now. Because I'm gassing like, man, but I do tend to, if I meet someone new, I'm in a group, I'm the quietest one in the group. Observe. Yeah. But do you feel as if you've missed a big part of your youth then? Partly, yeah. I've missed a part of growing up with my civilian friends where they've all been securing decent jobs. Some of them are still doing the same job now than they were 30 years ago. Some of them are retired, some of them have got houses and I've missed that opportunity because of my lifestyle choices in the forces. They've got themselves nicely grounded. They've learned to pay bills from an early age because they thought they were going to get a house and they get a share in it. They're going to start getting used to paying bills from a young age. They're going to learn to budget their money. If you're a squatter, you get paid under the month. You go and spunk the fucking lot on the weekend. You come back and you're still all right because you've got somewhere to live. You've got somewhere to eat and you've got people around you to keep you going. Not much responsibility. Nah, you don't need to. So when you left the army, you went into the closed protection? Yeah. How long did you do that for? It was about three years on and off. So basically, when I came out, I went into my main job was surveillance with my dad. My dad had left the police force by then. So he was working in a team of surveillance with a guy who was ex-special forces, ex-SAS. He's gone now, but what a fucking guy. Another ex-copper, ex-customs. There are three or four of us and it's a rich, do you want a job working us doing surveillance because we need someone young that can do the foot follows because we're all fucking old and we can't run anymore. I thought, yeah, I'll do that. That sounds interesting. We'd learned some surveillance with the SBS doing the CP course. We'd learned some counter surveillance. So I had an idea of how I should do it, but I learned how to police do it and how the SAS do it. And that's brilliant because you're learning techniques from these different forces. Yes, you combine it all together and it's great. Subcock to all that. I loved it, mate. It was great. I really enjoyed the buzz of something. And you could set aside someone's house for fucking hours or days waiting. And we had the S, I won't say his name, the SS guy, an old Irish guy was in the van. He was known as a van man. What do I do? I drive this van, he'd be in the back already and then he was in his mid 50s. So I drive him down to the plot onto the street which he would have wrecked a few days before. Like an old plumber's van had a pipe on the top with those a bit. It looked like a work van, but inside there was an old guy from the SAS sat in there with his camera and his piss bottle and his radio. And I drive into the street and I'd know where to park it with the back windows facing the house of the target. And I'd get out of the van, I'd lock the van, he'd have a spare set of keys in the van in case he's got a bug out which does happen occasionally. Then I'd wander off down the street and I'd get in my car. So we'd have a couple of cars plotted up, say either under the road. So if a car comes out and turns left or we can pick up a follow either way, he'd be watching the house. So I'd be sat in this car, and bear in mind, I'm out clubbing Saturdays and Friday's Saturday nights. So I'm coming down from ecstasy during these surveillance jobs. I'm fucking tired, I'm really tired, but I'm led there waiting. I've all got our radios or inter-car radios, bit like the sort of thing the police have, but it's like a closed net. And he suddenly gets standby, standby from the man in the van. He'd be like, here we go, all right, wake up Rich, wipe your eyes, wash your face, get ready, we're going to get on a follow now. And he would describe the person as they're coming out and I'd say, target is tall white male, wearing blue jeans, white t-shirt, carrying a bag on his left and all that sort of stuff. You're getting into a car, he'd give you the registration of the car, the mate model registration. And he said he is off, off, off. And that means he's left and it's my turn to start following him. And it's great because it's really exciting because they'll pull out and then you think, so how where are these people? Are they fully aware? Do they know they're being followed? Are they clueless? Did they ever check their mirrors? So we started following him. We could follow cars for literally hours on end, trying to locate where they're going. So a lot of jobs we did were for insurance companies because they're the big parents. So if anyone's claiming for say, a bad neck, bad back, can't walk, can't do this, we would be sent by the insurance company to put a three day surveillance on them to verify if their injuries are genuine. So we'd be watching people to see if they are using crutches, if they have got the neck brace. Can they walk further than 100 meters to the shops? Can they carry heavy bags which they say they can't carry? And I thought, is this being a bit of a twat doing this? And I thought to myself, my uncle, that my mum's brother that died, he died because he fell 40 foot for a roof. He's worked for sparrows, cranes. He fell a long way, injured himself quite badly. He was waiting for an insurance pair to come through, which would have saved his life because it would have meant certain surgery, certain facilities in his home and everything else. Had he got the insurance pair slightly prompter, he would have probably still been alive not so much now, but he would have lived longer. And I thought the reason it's taking so long is there's so many people that have scow in insurance companies. So that was my justification in my head to do what I was doing, because I felt like I'm right. And I thought to myself, this person does look really bad, like they're stressed, but they have to go to the shops. They have to carry their bags. So I'm filming and thinking this is bad. But then I thought to myself, well, if they're genuine, we catch it on film, we present that to the courts and they get the pair straight away. Because they're not genuine. The people that are genuine don't get their money. So I kind of did that for like 18 months, two years. And it was great. Someone tried to attack me with a fucking machete. I thought body guard work should be dangerous, but the surveillance was even worse. So if you get compromised, you're in trouble. You know, if they decide they hang on, you fucking following me, mate. Is that how extreme that goes though to be watching somebody for three days because of an insurance claim? Yeah, so they used to put a... So anyone that is trying to get a claim on the go, bear this in mind. If you're claiming more than 50 grand, they will be watching you. But that is a lot though. Yeah, that was 20 odd years ago in mind. Yeah, that is a lot so you can understand. Yeah, so if the claim was more than 50 grand, the insurance companies that we were employed by would warrant a three-day surveillance worth a budget of about 1,500 quid. It's worth paying for it to know that they can then sort of like quash that claim or pay it out, you know. So how does then someone who's been in the army been raised by a proper father to then be sounded by strong men to then become a drug runner? Yeah, so there was a number of catalysts which hit me and they all happened in a fairly short space of time, probably within about six months of me getting out of prison, about out of prison out of the army, same sort of thing. The first one was seeing those guys on the podium, having a fucking good time if I want to be a part of that because they've got something going on there. The second one was, friend of mine was going to get our pills for us, for all four of us. He was picking up four pills. And after doing this, he was doing this for probably a couple of months. He said, like, I can't do it anymore. My head's going, it's too much for me. It's fucking four pills. I said, I'll do it. You know, I'm not really overly bothered. I've done worse. It isn't going to kill me as the attitude that you have in the force is. So I thought, well, I'll go and get him. So he introduced me to the guy that I had, then went and seen him. He gave me the four pills and he saw they're like, you know, eight quid each. I thought, all right, okay. So he said, make sure you're still charged. Your mate's tenor's mind. All right, okay. I thought, well, that technically means I get mine for free, don't I? Because I've made some money on that. So I just started to understand that all of a sudden this business thing just suddenly leapt into my mind. I've never done any form of business before. It just jumped at me and I thought, ah, all right, okay, I understand how it works. So I was doing this for a little while and I thought, so we were getting our pills before we went into the clubs. We had this ritual where we'd go into the club for about 10, it's half 10, and we sit around the table like this and we'd have our pints there and looking at each other. Are we going to take our pill? Yeah, all right, let's give it 20 minutes. Yeah, if enough, fuck it, let's do it now. It's we all knuckle pill at the same time. Then we wait. We'll start coming out there and you'll start looking at each other and start getting excited. And so we had this nice little community on just the four of us. But what happened after a few weeks of this going on? I was approached by someone, they said, oh, mate, where'd you get your pill from? I said, well, you know, there are, I've got them outside. He said, you got any more? I said, no, I ain't got any more. I said, oh, can you get any? I thought, ah, yeah, probably can, yeah. So I went back and saw the guy the following week. So about getting asked for pills now. There's a number of cases of people that said, look, where'd you get your pills from? Can we get them? He said, why don't you take someone credit then? Because before I was paying with the cash, I said, well, can I do that? He said, yeah, just take your fucking 10, it's only 80 quid. I thought, I mean, I'll make 20 quid. That's got me in the club for free, my pill for free. And back then, I was a couple of points as well. Well, this is all right. So I took these 10 pills, give me mates theirs, went to the club, and they were gone within like, within about half an hour. They were sold, I thought. And these people then started to, the ones that were buying the pills started to hang around in the same area in this club. So I was like, okay. So this went from 10 to 20 and started building up and the people were buying, they were hanging around in the same areas. So we started to form this little community in the club. And every space about a year, they were building up, but it peaked at about a couple of hundred. It wasn't going nuts at any stage because that was what was being sold in the club. But then I started selling them outside, prior to going in. And I was going on, I thought, why don't I've built this little thing and what I was doing, whether it was deliberate or not, I was building this sort of community around me of people that made me feel like I belonged. Because we're all off our tits at the same time. We're all having a good time at the same time. We're all enjoying the same music. We're in the same sort of clothes. And we had that common interest, which we all felt the same way. We all felt great at the time, albeit short lived and quite false. So that kind of replaced that military belonging, which I missed. I built this thing around me. So there no longer was this satellite on the outside just kind of wishing I was part of something. I was in the middle of it. And it wasn't about being the center of attention. It was about finally being a part of something bigger than just me. And that's what I felt like. So sending those pills really sort of like replaced that element of my life that was missing. And it started building up from there. Do you feel as if you would have done anything to just be part of someone? And be part of some group? It's quite likely. Yeah. It's a sad existence as well, to be into willing to, whether it's going to the army and fighting or whether it's doing close protection with your dad, SES or whether it's selling drugs or whatever it would have been. It's just to have been that surroundings to then I'll do whatever they're doing just so you will be accepted. Yeah. Just to try and be a part of something to fit in. So what do you think's missing? It's a good one. I think missing from an early age as a kid I've never quite felt that I was good with groups. So I don't know whether I've got anxiety disorders where I sleep myself on purpose. I think I just want, I think when people just see me as I am and just be accepted and I am, but I just think for me myself I just seem to be a bit of a nobody. I quite like being my own person but missing my, I think things are different now. I've got my kids now and that gives me that sense of fulfillment. You know, that's changed the ball game completely because I've got them and that's my primary focus and no longer am I the most important person in my life. You know, I think that makes a difference whereas before for me or although I'd do anything for anyone I'd probably take a hit for anyone. I was the most important person to me at that time. Now I've got my kids, they are. So my focus is more on them and I don't feel like I need to be a part of anything necessarily because long as they're okay I feel like I'm all right. Do you know who you are though? No, I ain't got a clue. I've gone for it. I've gone for it. I get it man, I get it. But you'll never know who you truly are if you're trying to fit in with everybody else. Be who you are. Like it's okay not to have groups of friends. It's okay not to be doing what everybody else is doing. That's the strong ones who stand alone because they don't give a fuck if they're accepted or not. Like it's difficult because we all want to be accepted. I want to have a great podcast. I want to have great conversations. But really does it fucking matter? It's a fine balance isn't it? As long as you're enjoying it. Yeah, I think that the two different things is one is trying to be a part of something for certain reasons and the other is trying to fit in. And like you say, I'm happy now. After seven years in jail, I like my own company. I will fleet in and out of people's lives. And I always feel like I'm welcomed and I am. And people are always welcome to join me in my life but I'm very happy on my own. I don't feel like I need to be molly-cold or anyone around me to make me feel like I belong anymore. I've realized now that I don't necessarily need to be a part of a group. Whereas before, because of the army maybe feel like I was a part of a group. When it came out, you feel like, well I need to be in something because that's what I'm used to. But once that's gone, you think, well, you mean you're right. Do I need to be actually involved in this? So maybe I'll do isolate myself intentionally from groups because I just don't feel like I'm, I just got my own life, my own sort of, my own direction. Maybe you know how fast you can get sucked into whatever other people's involved in as well. Whether that's taking drugs or selling drugs. So maybe, okay, so I'm just gonna set myself tonight because I'm not gonna get in trouble then. Yeah, that's a big part of it. I think it's self-preservation, isn't it? You look at the fact of like, how do I know what he's up to? What's his background? What's he doing? You know, the truth is you don't without giving them the fucking Spanish Inquisition and saying, right, mate, are you involved in drugs? Cause I don't want nothing to do with who you are. Safe bet is say, well, just don't talk to no fucker. Stay away from everyone. And then I can't get in trouble. I've got another five and a half years on license. 2027 is when it finishes. So I've got, I suppose I've got. You're better off staying in the clutches now then, brother. Or else we can get a part two in 2030. It's fucking, you're playing me fire though. And that's me only just speaking to you. I can already see that. How kind of your mind registers a bit to be then try to fit in and it's fuck everybody else. And I genuinely, fuck everybody else that if you're a loner, be a fucking loner. Things change. It's sad because it is a lonely journey. Life is lonely. I'm traveling down here myself. But I sat better with my thoughts but then you feel as if you're missing something. I'm not drinking but I'll see people watching the football and they're all celebrating when goals go in. Not obviously when fucking Scotland are playing but you see people and you feel as if, party feels as if you're missing something. But I don't miss that because I know how down I get if I do drink and then at least two drugs. So I'm safer myself because I'm like, I'll try and fit in. Like I can interview anybody. I can fit in with them. Whether it's a drug dealer, whether it's a fucking nun. I can fit in. That's part of my skill. Same as yourself. You'll be willing to change. Don't know whether that's part of your surveillance or your close protection or working with your dad or working with SES to try and fit in with every surroundings. But that's a dangerous place to be. I guess the thing is, if you make some sort of mold and you're happy on your own, you're more amiable. I can, and people can fit with other crowds. They might not be the right crowd but it's trying to find the crowd to fit with your model of how you are. You know, and it's quite a bespoke background, isn't it? You know, of all the things that people do and my background is not everyone has gone through that same journey. It's similar journey, but not exactly the same. So trying to find someone who can replicate that and be the same mindset as me or the same kind of characteristics as me, you're never gonna find it. So I think that you say, it's probably a safer bet just to stay on my own and just avoid any- Tell your exes all about it anywhere. Yeah, at least till January the 12th, 2027. Not all of that means anything to me. So how do you go from selling just a couple of hundred poles to then being charged with two conspiracy charges to then serving 15 years? How do you move through the ranks? So the progression was gradual, difficult and stressful. So in round about 1990, the back in the 96, now I lived in a flat, which was ex-forces and my friend that when he left the forces with me, the guy that did the CP course with me, he moved down to London. He was doing some work down there and I moved to this flat on Bath Road in Bristol and it was two Victorian houses converted into six flats. Quite nice, brand new. There's only one couple in there on the middle floor. I was given the top floor and went there for us, it's nice. It's all right, it's brand new and it's close to town. And I thought it was off this fucking, like three, four empty flats, there's a ground floor. I was there for about two months and my neighbors moved out from below because I was pretty noisy with my parties. I felt awful, but they moved out and they fucked off somewhere else. So it's just me and this six flats on my own. So I rang up my mate from London. I said, mate, where are you living? So I went down and I said, mate, there's some flats here, they're empty. Ex-forces, you should get yourself down here. He was coming down on the occasion of the weekend to come out with us anyway. It's all right, I'll come down. So we rang up the Harrison Agency, they allocated them a flat, below me, funny enough. So we had these like two flats. So we had two squaddies, we would serve together, done the CP course, both used to grow out on the piss together, living in this flat. So part was beginning to become quite rife now because before, let's go back now because there's no fucker else there. It's just us, we've got the run of these whole buildings. No one's going to complain about the noise. So part was getting big. And then a few months passed again, it was like the probably beginning of 1997 for argument's sake. And another mate of mine, we just bumped into him. And he said, what are you doing mate? He's on working on the road in the cop, on a manager. He's like, I can't imagine that for him. So I just stopped. So we used to, because we were spending our money on drugs and beer, used to steal food from the cop and chuck it in the back door for us. We'd fill up my van with fucking stolen food. I said, mate, would he get down here and live with us? So there's like four flat sets down there. He goes, oh yeah, fuck him, I'll have some of that. So we moved down, he ended up going next door. So again, out of these six flats, we had three occupied. It was fucking nuts, mate. We were just partying all the time. It was just fucking bonkers. So I said to my mate who was in the cop, he'd lost his job. He got sacked, kind of think why, stealing food on the back. Said, mate, do you want to partner with me? So I'm selling a few hundred pills a week. It's not much, but do you want to partner with me and we'll do it together. So I'm in the club, so I'm selling most of my outside, but I need someone to help me out. So we formed this partnership. It's going really, really well. So basically the plan was I would hold the drugs. He would hold the money. I'd hold the drugs because he liked taking them. So he'd end up eating them more than he should. The thing is he's also very good at spending the fucking money as well. So either way, we were fucked. So what we did in his club is the same club we're selling in is we kind of add this arrangement. By then I really started to grow things in there. And we had various people in the club working on-site. So we had a manager on-site, he'd bring our pills in for us. That's the door sorted. Couple of dormant on-site. Perfect, I had that sorted. With the DJ and the lighting jock both on-site. So that's the music covered. Couple of bar staff on-site, my mate was shagging one of them. So we had that, so we had free drinks all night. So we pretty much had the whole club. I won't use the word so nut because it's quite an old phrase but we did have it really well covered. We had every base covered. So we'd get the drugs in. The dormant would get our backs if they not so much for trouble but they'd let us know if it was on top and you're gonna get a spin. The watch out we're gonna come and search one a bit, get the fucking drugs out the way sort of thing. We just paid him all in pills. One pill to each person. So everyone was happy. So it was going really well. Until my mate was fucking spending the money more than he should do. And we ended up having a few problems because of that as a result we were working with a different firm. I moved on from this one girl was getting the pills and initially getting from a different firm. And the first time I had a phone call from someone, a debt collector and we sat there and we'd had a deal with someone as it had gone a bit sour. We borrowed a grind off someone to buy some pills. Name was to turn it around, spin it and make him 1500 quid. But he kept wanting to take the money back too soon. Didn't have the chance to speculate the money and bring it back. So basically he killed it before it started. So we ended up owning 500 quid. So he sold the debt to this guy. We'd heard about this guy and he rang me up. This lad always says, name is C. He said, oh, you know how I said, yeah, I know you are. He said, you owe me fucking money. I said, yeah, well, so I don't. He said, well, you fucking do me. So I come around to your house now and put you in the boot doing your fucking legs and gonna take your fucking eyes out. I thought, all right, okay, leave it with me. So I thought, spoke to him and I said, mate, you fuck right up here. We got a 500 quid now. We just spoke the fucking last. Oh, that for 500 quid? Yeah, mate, that's what it comes down to, you know? And he told me my address. So I knew he was, I knew the guy. I thought, no, he'll do it. He'll do it. First time I felt alone, first time I've been threatened that I actually felt concerned because I thought, where's my fucking muckers? You know, fuck, we got nothing now. We got, we can't, we cannot beat this guy. We're only just in this game. We're new. We haven't even done it for a year. We don't know anyone. We've got no contacts. Me and him, we can't beat this guy. So the only money we had was what was left from selling the pills that weekend. We'll have to use that as someone else's money. We'll have to fucking give him that then. So another guy's money, we paid him. So we went down to this hotel, met him. Like that. Give him this fucking, there you go, mate. The guy that had done the deal with us was stood there. We didn't even look at him, but if you can fuck off, mate, just give this, he was a wearer's fire. He'd just done wearer's fire and like fucking proper bearing like us. And he was a big lad. Give him his dos, he said, thank you. And that was it, he walked out. And I saw him a week later on. And he'd come out, he said, mate, fair play. You came through quickly on that one. If you ever need anything, let me know. And he was just a business deal for him. And we became really good friends. And then me, mate, was spending more money. He spent hours getting out of control. So we had to then point, right, we're gonna have to split this, mate. I can't keep working because you're fucking it up. You're getting us in trouble. You know, we're getting a phone call from money. He said, where is my money? He, mate, he said he's got the money. And he was lying. Because what he's doing is trying to impress his misses saying that we were in all this DOS. But we weren't earning that much money. We were literally existing. So we went our separate ways. And then when I sort of separated from him, that's when I started to elevate things. So I was selling a bit of pot, selling ecstasy. I was never really bothered with Coke until 2002, until about four years later. What made you get involved in the wait? I'd had enough of selling pills. The pill market had gone down really badly. You mentioned she's doved this. Yeah. Prior to the Miss Busch's coming out, they dropped in price. There was a drought, 97, 98, nothing around. The great drought of 97. Yeah, because I think they used to go for like 20 quid then, back then. They used to go for 20 quid for it. You can get three for 10. Yeah. And we were buying it for pence. I would pick up 50,000 and I'd be paying like 20 pence each on them. But you're selling them for fucking 30 pence each. Because no one's, so you think, I'm picking up fucking 50,000 guarners. I'm only making like a few hundred quid. But it's still a class A. What's the fucking point in this? This is silly. It's penny-pinching for a sentence for nothing. Yeah, yeah. So you were selling eckeys to then. It's different clientele. Exorcise, pot, weed dealers are all brand new because they're just stoners. They don't want any grief. They don't give you any grief anyway. Coke's a different ball game. Smacks a different ball game. Yeah. Angry dealers. Yeah. And gangsters along with that. This is it. So this was the problem I faced. Now, most of my customer base were buying pills. We're slowly graduating from going out clubbing to go into the bars and what not, a sniff instead. So they were all looking for people to sell Coke. But I wasn't interested in doing the grams. I thought, I can't be bothered with that. It's a fucking headache. It's a lot of telephone traffic. It's a lot of meetings, a lot of running around. I've met my wife and got married at this point. We had our first son. I didn't want to be running around like a nutter, selling fucking drugs when I meant to be over my wife and son. So... Did you know what you were doing was wrong then, but you still wanted to be part of something? Yeah, the sort of right wrong didn't really come into it. I knew that it was wrong because I knew, but it didn't feel wrong. Did your misses and your son not give you that sense of you weren't alone or you're still feeling lonely? It's still a bit lonely. I think I kind of tried to get into the family life, but because of the stress involved with selling the drugs at this stage, emotionally I was detached because I was under so much stress. So it doesn't allow you to engage with people as well as you'd like to, because you might be in the same room with me, my misses and my son at the time, but I could be thinking about, how the fuck am I going to raise this money? He's not paid again or there's this problem or I've got to go and sort this out. One thing after another. And that's before the Coke started. And I thought, this is fucking daft. I'm making a few hundred quid on all these pills. I need to do it. So I spoke to all of the people that I knew were buying grams. I said, who are you getting your stuff off of? And I was trying to figure out where they were getting the stuff from and how can I start. So I didn't want to fuck around with anything. I wanted to do it in corners or nines or quarter keys. And eventually I had enough people to find that I could sell ounces too, but take on a quarter key. Was it proper? Yeah, well, no, not after we finished with it. You dance on it? Yeah, I started off. So I spoke to my mate, the guy that I first bought pills from, he was now well into the Coke scene. So he was my in. He had the contacts. So we said, right, I said, I was at the rang, I said, look, mate, I want to get involved in this. I said, I want to work with you. I know you're doing a bit. I said, but let's not fuck around. Let's do it properly. Let's get a press. Let's get a mold. Let's make it all up. You get, can you get the real one? He said, yeah, I can get that. So let's get the fucking kind of thing. Let's just do it. Let's dance on it. Step on it. He says, yeah, fuck it. We're up for that. So we did. And me and him set up a little place where another guy showed us how to do it. All the molds are just mental. It's like a tube, like a stainless steel tube out of aircraft. Fucking stainless steel. Way to fucking tan. And the first time I ever seen proper Coke was when this guy dropped the keel around and sat on that. And we opened it. Took the rubber jackets off of it and all the fucking tape and all the plastic which were pressed onto it and peeled it away. It's just like a grainy look on there. So I thought, fucking hell, look at that. But back then it was only about 28 grand. They were about, this was in 2002. Many did you get out up for you for? No, no, we only hit it twice. So we got three. Yeah, three out of three out of one. No, three, two. Yeah, three out of one. Three out of one. Yes. What were you selling the name at? I didn't know what he was selling this for. No, he was, he was putting us out in nines. I didn't know what he was selling this for. I think we've, I've valued it at something like about seven grand a corner, I think. About seven grand. Which one's too bad? That's a good markup. And it was about 25%, 30%. It was coming in at about between 85 and 90. Give or take. So it was good kit. And I'd never seen it before. When we broke it, I was like, fucking hell. That's just like shiny, it's glistening. How was it the first time breaking it up and pressing it? I was mental. Yeah. May I say? Well, we were very aware that the fact that it- Did you have masks on? No, no, we didn't. No gloves, nothing, just fucking as we were. And it was in someone's front room. And we'd learned quickly to put a tarpaulin on the floor because Coke's got a good way of disappearing into a carpet. If you drop it, it's just, poof. Yeah, you're wasting grams, man. Yeah, that's money. And that's that difference of that. I mean, I've had someone who's dropped a whole ounce of mix on the floor into a shag-pile carpet. Fucking good. It's just goodbye, mate. Just say goodbye to it. What, were you maxing it off, Benz? No, back then it was mannitol. We didn't- Benz wasn't on the scene then. We couldn't find it. No one- we could have accessed possibly Lidocaine or Novikaine, but we learned it was a bit volatile with the mix. So we were using mannitol. We were paying 500 quid. And we think it's something to do with horses. We're not sure what it was, but it was white and it did the job. Can't I mean? No. Nah, we haven't been out there. We've fucking been out there. It was a benign substance. It didn't actually do anything. It was just a powder. We'd have been better going straight to the fucking hole in the bar and getting the top of creatine would have done the same job. So back then it was mannitol. And we were told is because it presses up and it bonds well and it gets firm. But the fact is you put some of the 10 tons of pressure on it, it's gonna fucking firm up. It's gonna be hard and solid. But the reality is, it doesn't matter what it looks like, but it's a perception people have got. If they get a bag of powder, I think it's been cut. Well, it could be a lump, but it's already been cut, but it doesn't matter what it looks like. So start off with mannitol. And it just built then, it kind of, but it was a rocky road because I was doing about a nine and it went up a little bit, it went down a little bit and it fluctuated a little bit. I was still buying pills in because people wanted pills. I was still selling pots. I was selling all sorts of stuff. And then it was just a wavy fucking road and it was messy. And I think things started going wrong about 2005. That's when I wrote, that's when I wrote the feature of the book is 2006. What's the book called? 24 kilo, ironically. My two favorite letters in the fanatic alphabet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll go on to that in a bit if you want. So um- Touch on it now. Oh yeah, so I'll tell you what then. I'll give you a present. Ah! As long as that's from doesn't get busted mate. Do you imagine what it's like for me driving up the motorway with that in the back? You might not get into it as well. That's where you used to get boxes back, midday. Yeah, yeah. Well, I just want to send that signed copies. So that's your book? Yeah, that's it. See if you can get pulled with the corpus with that, mate, you're there being fucked. There's romance straight away. Straight in jail, mate. So this is your first book? First book of series of four. And you wrote this while you were active? No, I wrote this when I was coming out of jail. I started off writing when I came out of prison. And then, because I had access to a laptop, finished it off last year, because I get used to being out of jail, setting up with family and that. Where can people get this book? On Amazon mate, or if they want to. I'll leave the link in the description. Yeah, I knew it was mate. Like the minute I'm doing signed copies on email, but Amazon's your main place. So in deep and deep, and into the world of drugs and organised crime, discover how Jones, the lost soldier, uses his specialised military training in the world most people fear. Interesting, brother. So check this out, guys. I'll leave the link in the description. Written in crowns, because I'm a Scotie. So you were still, so what give you the, so going through that, cutting it up, getting two free boxes, getting a bit of paper and it's a good turnover. Is that when you started, what was the feeling then for you? Because if I'm buying gear off you, I know you're going to be reliable straight away. You're always going to be on time. You're going to pay your debt. You're always going to be 100%. You always know. Yeah. Yeah, that's the worst of it. I was active back in the day, which I'll get when I touch on my own story, but you know who's going to fuck you over? And even the ones who fuck you over, you still gave them graft, because part of you thinks, you're a little bit of faith. You might not fuck it up this time. There's a bit of faith and greed, but every time they fuck you over, there's more grafts, work it off, the ball gets fucking higher. It just increases, doesn't it, at the same time? And that's exactly it. And that's what was going on with the Coke game is, I've got a threshold of where I would see it. And I get asked this a lot, at what point, if someone has your money, do you fucking run in there and start, reclaiming that debt by any means necessary? And I think, well, I've got a threshold. At what point would you say it's worthwhile getting the police kicking your door off, because you fucking had to kidnap someone? At what point is it worthwhile you doing someone that much harm that they've got no choice to go to the police because they're fucking terrified of what might go on? And then you lose everything. It's a threshold. So I find that that threshold was breached on a few occasions. And my initial thing was, someone owes me money, I give them the benefit of that, but I walk away. So how do you deal with that then, to be then, because you don't want to be pushed over on that game, is that right? Everybody's actually a frightened centre. So how do you deal with that then? If you never had that ruthless mentality, was that other people you were surrounded with who dealt with that? Yeah, well generally speaking, if I couldn't manage, if I wasn't prepared to go into sort of debt on myself, there'd be other people who'd be more than happy to go, you'd sell a debt 50%, and that's the game. I just doubled the debt. So there you go, it owes me instead of 10 grand, it owes me 20 grand, go and deal with it. It didn't have to happen. There was a couple of people, the main money that was owed, was when I went to the prison, is when people sort of, the net is cast out, people just fucking run to all four corners, and hope they don't get caught. And they usually run out with money. So that's the only real debts that were owed. There were debts here and there, but nothing that one of me wanted to go in there, and actually think, right, you can't owe me fucking five grand, I want it. It won't worth the fucking hassle. Can't lose. Did you ever have a number in your head that was enough to get out, to make you happy, to keep your family okay life for the next 50, 60 years? I think the number was the business, because I think the numbers were never going to hit the point where you could have it. With that, yeah. Sat there in a bank, because it wasn't going to happen, because bear in mind, my business really took off in 2008. I've gone through some major shit, 06, 07, beginning of eight. Proceeds of cream and start, we're starting about there now. 2002 pocket came out. So that's when people were getting scared. That's when assets were difficult to hide. So you had to be really clever of how you did things. You had to be really careful about how you made money, how you potentially laundered it, how you would fill it into the bank, buying goods, due diligence. Bank clerks, fucking car sales rooms, everything that's all about due diligence now. So spending money was really hard. So you had to be really, really premeditated and plan it way, way ahead. And you can't plan what you're going to earn from one week to the next. You can presume you're going to sell this much and you might make that much. But it's not guaranteed. So you can't premeditate what you might earn because you might not but you might take a massive fucking loss. One loss and you're fucked, three years, five years' work's fucked. Yeah, you could take on two kilos costing you 100 grand, say for argument's sake. You could make 30, 40 grand on that. You could make more. But that gets nicked. That's 100 grand in the whole straightaway. So that 30, 40 grand you made is totally, well, it doesn't mean anything. Means nothing because you now got 100 grand out. See, when you were doing this, was your dad never in your psyche, was your dad never in your mindset being that kid who was in the army having his tears in his eyes to then becoming a fuck-up? Every single fucking day, I was worried that if he finds out what I've turned into, he's never going to forgive me. Never with anyone else, let alone my dad. And my dad was the one that I worried about the most. His opinion was one that really mattered. I cared about my wife's opinion. I cared about my mum's. My dad's, I really cared about it because it mattered about what he thought about it because like you see, he was proud of me when I joined the fuck. He was proud of everything I did. And then he's kind of like, if he finds out what I've turned into, it's not a case of like he won't talk to me but he'll see me differently. I didn't want that. Disappointment. Yeah, that's worse in there. I'm not angry, so I'm just disappointed. Yeah, you'd rather take a beating than having I'm disappointed. I'm very disappointed with you, son. So when you're going through that then and moving through the ranks doing bigger bits, when did you start getting surveillance on you? Did you not notice or did you have or were you just too caught up in the game? Yeah, so basically what happened is 2009, there was a chap that was, I got the point where I didn't have to have hands on which was nice. You know, I'd employed people to do various roles within that group, if you like. One of the guys was, he was my manager. He managed it for me. So we'd meet up every morning about half six, me, him, another guy. We'd go through what we're gonna do for the day. Won't be every day, sorry. It'd be like when things are due in, it's arriving here. I want this doing, I want that doing. Here's the customers. Jump on it, mate. So he was in the thick of it. He knew everything about it. And so it went tips up for him in September 2009. Basically, interesting story-ish. He lived in the middle of nowhere with his girlfriend and their family. And they owned a business selling plants, not legal, although there was illegal plants involved. It was actually a nursery garden where they sell like cuttings of fucking flowers and stuff like that. But also he did have other plants growing in the basement. Now, this evening, what happened, the place had just shut. He wasn't there. He was off working somewhere else. And a group of local lads or local were aware that there was this crop was due down or it was down, being ready to come out. It was dried, ready to go. So they came in, told that, once places shut and they held him up at gunpoint. He said, right, where's the fucking plants? We know you've got them here. Give him a slap with the gun. So what's happening? The guy's Mrs. who's fucking shitting herself. She rings the lad up that I know. So look, we're being robbed. Please fucking come and do something. We're being fucking robbed here. So he's then jumped in his van. He's got a taser in the van and he drives there as quick as he can to go and fucking try and save them, try and rescue them. Unbeknown to him, someone else had seen these three guys looking suspicious, walking into this building. They rang the police, which they would know. Why wouldn't they? So this lad turns out, try not to say his name. This lad turns up like a knight in shining armor with his fucking taser to be greeted by the police. That would be cool because of an armed robbery. So they presume he is part of this armed robbery. The armed robbers are gone. They've done the deed. I think they've presumably got what they wanted and they fucked off. But he turns up with a taser and straight away they say, oh, we've got our man. So they've arrested him. He's got a class too far on him. So they arrested him. They searched his house, found nothing, searched a building associated with him and found a press, molds, cutting agents, no coke but traces of cocaine on the stuff. And they give him a good grill him. Now at the time, we didn't know what, where this was going to go. We just, we just found out they'd been arrested and he's been, they'd seized money off of him as well. So we thought, fucking hell, we're fucked. They found, they found our, you know, where we'd do the coke. And he's released on bail. He can't, it's a play. Yeah, that's it. Well, even more so. Luckily they didn't find any coke. So they couldn't actually pin anything heavy but they've, they've grilled him. Just come and say, all right lads, everything's okay. It's all right, it's all right. They haven't found any drugs. We're a bit of a caution for IK, fair enough. Ha ha, he's a fucking snatched man. Yeah, yeah, straight away. If you're getting a press and that, you're fucked. Yeah, they've got, and they've taken his money off. Did you believe him though? I wanted to believe him but part of me thought, I'm not really sure about this. So I thought, well IK, let's be tactical about this. So this was in September, 2009. So nothing happens. A few months pass, a few months passing. Thought I would get back to normal again. Well, nothing's come on top. No one's been arrested. Business as usual. So we're getting to 2010. So 2010 was a, started off as a really fucking good year because I just had plans now to, the exit was ready. I could see the fucking light. I thought, that's my way out. I'd started a motorsport business in 2008. I was doing my track days. I was doing my racing in 2009, 2010. The plan was to open a garage and to develop cars for motorsport. That was my dream. It wasn't a load of money. It was during a recession. So money was tied everywhere. So to be flush and extravagant during a recession would bring an unnecessary heat on me. So I had to be very contained about how I did things. So having lots of money around me in the bank wasn't a healthy thing to do. So I had to invest it into building this business, which I did. So we got the garage done. So that was being built during the summer of 2010. Everything was going fucking well. And the garage opened up on the 1st of October. And the plan was the guy that was managing it, he was gonna take over my business, the drugs business. I said, look, mate, all I wanna do, I'll just need some money off you each month to cover the overheads on the garage. I could fit all that in quite easily. That's not a problem. Chuck was about four grand a month to cover the wages, the rent and a few bills. The rest can be made up from customers. I said, after that, you can have it, mate. Just keep me going. So this is self-sufficient. Well, yeah, no worries. So we'll do that. And we got to October 2010, we were plowing through our fires. It's fucking great, it's all right. It's been a big opening day. All the cars were down there. It was going all right. It wasn't loads of custom because it was a recession, but my dream was coming true. I finally found something which ticked all the boxes. The drug dealing ticked the boxes because it kept me entertained. It gave me an income. It gave me the risk. It did everything I needed to satisfy my cravings of leaving the forces. And the motorsport did the same thing. Did the income moderately. Certainly gave me the risk of racing. And it had the structure as well. And then October 28th, one of my runners was delivering some coke and he got arrested. Got pulled on the motorway. We didn't know at the time by our police. And we found out, based on the find out because he hadn't turned up to his destination. He was due to go to one place and the guy rang us. I said, where's your mate? He's not here yet. I said, fuck this mate. He should be with you by now. He said, no, he's not around. I said, well, any ideas? Can you, you know, if you try court, he says he's not answering. I thought, fuck it. I thought, I don't want to ring him. I'd need to ring him. So I rang him. Nothing kept ringing. Nothing. I said, I rang him. I thought, maybe he's done it in reverse order. So I rang the guys down south. He was going down the motorway, down the M5. I said, mate, have you seen him? He said, no, nothing. I said, fuck it. I thought, fuck sakes. My only thing I thought was, we'd had a bit of an argument that day. And he was due to go to France the following day. I thought, maybe he's just fucking for fuck it. I'm just going to fuck off and go to France and not deliver the stuff. And it just, you know, just been it. I thought that was plausible because we'd had heated words. But maybe he's just for fucking. In which case, that's the better of the two options. So I thought, I'll keep ringing. So I sent him a text saying, look, mate, I appreciate your upset. I hope you get to France. Okay, I hope you're during his saying. I'm just worried about, you know, make sure you're okay, mate, so don't do anything stupid. No response. Didn't even go through the phone and gone off by and I thought, fucking hell. And the next day, I was like fucking stressing out. And my mate rang up. He said, I've heard the news or no, obviously he said, he's been arrested. It's on the news. So there's a car was pulled off the M5 with our own police. The occupant was fanged with one of the corticulars, a cocaine and money. I thought, ah, fucking hell, he's been nicked. Then I thought to myself, right, is that part of the bigger picture? Or is it just him, as he fucked up? Because he did have a marker on his car because I didn't realize he'd been involved in a road rage. So I thought, fucking hell, maybe his road rage is caught up with him. They just randomly found his drugs. I'm trying to justify all these different reasons why he might have got arrested. And the reality is I should have known that it was on top, but at the time I think, ah. So I thought, right, the wise thing to do is just shut down. I spoke to all the guys, I said, look, guys, shut it down. It's on top. I think we think we're gonna be in trouble. I think there's an investigation going on. We can't risk it even if there isn't. Let's just close up for now, see what happens. I spoke to the guys that was managing it. I said, mate, we're shutting down. I said, ah, nah, you'd be all right. I said, nah, mate. I said, I'm shutting down. I said, are you sure? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, shutting down. So a few weeks passed and he goes, mate, do you wanna get up and running again? Yeah, I said, nah, mate. I'm all right, I'm gonna fucking leave it. So we'll just do a little bit. I said, nah, mate, I've had enough. I think I'm fucking broke. You know, the garage is doing really badly because it was now a cold winter. Winter 2010 was fucking freezing. We had that big snowstorm coming. The heating alone was fucking like 750 every month because we had an old oil burner. Couldn't even afford to pay it out. I can't afford to pay wages. Well, fuck, I need to earn some money rapidly. So I ran, I said, look, mate, let's have a look at it. He said, well, I've got another runner for you. It's all me other guys, a jump ship, which is fair enough. I wouldn't expect to stay on board. And I got another guy and I said, right, yeah, this is what I'm gonna do. I'll send you down safe, pick up some coke, get it back to me. I'm gonna turn it into a fucking, it was only half a nine, four and a half ounces. All it was, I said, I can get that. Turn that into fucking a kilo if I need to and just fuck it out the door, make yourself two or three grand and then just fucking pay the bill and pay some wages, keep people happy. I said, let's go down the road. And then he, on the way back, he got pulled as he's going on to the M4. Fuck sake, so he's been pulled. That's another runner, literally a month later. And that was the end of November. So I thought, fucking hell, he's been nicked. I said, that's definitely, definitely that's it, we're definitely being investigated. So I shut down again. And then that was it. Even the guy that was trying to get me to do it, he said, I just leave it, you know, I think he's on top. So I did, then I had a phone call on the 30th of December from a lad that used to, he was a mate and he used to buy an ounce every now and again, like mate's rates. He said, well mate, it's New Year's Eve tomorrow. I said, can we do anything? I said, mate, I'll fucking shut down. I said, we're done. You know, it's not happening. I said, I said, well mate, it's New Year's Eve. Please, can you do anything? I said, well, look, I'll give me mate's number. He's still trading. Just give him a shout. So around me mate, I said, look, sorry, I said, yeah, that's no problem. So I've given them the numbers. 31st comes on site and work in my garage and I just will leave them to it. And I had a phone call about, must be made sort of mid-afternoon and there's a guy that wanted it. He said, where's your mate? I'm trying to ring him. I said, have you, you just keep trying and you'll get through. Then my phone rang again. It was the other guy that had the coat. I said, I can't get what do you mate? I said, he's trying to ring you. Well, they both fucking rang me now, haven't they? That's that triangle. That connection between two guys. Didn't think anything of it. I said, well, I just fucking needed to get on with it. And then I think that was it. I went at a news eve. That night I had the phone rang about 10 o'clock and it was him, the guy I bought there. He says, I just got at a police station of, oh, fucking hell, not another one. So he got nicked. But that was because there was a surveillance on the other guy. And I thought, well, that's it. Definitely, we are definitely being investigated. 100%. So that was the last thing I, last coat I had anything to do with was December the 31st, 2010. That's the last one. That's about it. That's about it. Yeah, so some months passed. April the 14th, 2011. And I was just playing the waiting game. I just thought that it's going to happen. And part of me thought, well, maybe it's not. Maybe I just kind of got away with it because the first one that we made that got pulled the previous year, he was due for sentencing. He just picked up six, six years, six months. I thought that's a bit harsh. And then I sat in my garage. I sat on my desk like this. I could look out through the door onto the, like a hard standing car park where all the cars would park up. I could just see like a little letter box view out through the door. It was a nice warm morning. Sight on the computer, and I just out of my peripheral, I saw fucking three dark cars just sort of sell past the door. And I thought, a little bit of fucking ominous. But there was other businesses on that estate. So maybe they're just me. But then I noticed that the back when it stopped, I could just see the back. Three focuses. I thought, this is it. They're fucking here now. This is, this has got to be the arrest. They've come now for me. But it seemed quite surreal because I thought, well, are they really for me? And I thought, well, let's just pop out and have a look and see. So I walked out and I seen like three cars sort of debussing with like police in suits, not uniform. I thought, this looks pretty fucking serious. So I said, good morning. I said, good morning. How are you doing? So I reached Jones and I said, yeah, so you're under arrest for it. Obviously it came up to me instead. So I'm under arrest for a conspiracy by cocaine. Sorry, conspiracy by the class A, namely cocaine. Anything to say for, no, mate. And that was it. That was the first arrest and it was soccer. So it was. See this claims club? Yeah. So I thought, it's definitely a fucking right. And as you said earlier, conspiracy is the one. When I first started, we made that some of this first four pills. If you get caught, you get free things. So it's going to be possession, possession with intent. You could put you, you're not too bad on those. But if they say conspiracy, you're fucked. When they say conspiracy, I thought I just, that memory just fucking jumped out. So I'm fucked straight away. How many people were on your charge sheet? So this is where it gets more moderately complicated. So on that one, even the Somerset soccer, there were about five or six of us, I think. Say about six for argument six. If I go for the names, I'm going to say a name by mistake. I don't want to do that. So about six people on that charge sheet, which doesn't seem that many. No, I think there was maybe seven. And what you don't realise at the time is when you get nicked in the sight of the police station, you think you're there on your own, don't you? You think it's just me. Because there's no noise. No one kicking doors or no one kicking off, making any racket. And then you get caught through for your interview and you sit down and they show you the indictment and they show you the initial disclosure. And you look at the names and you think, fucking hell, they've got it on. Oh my God, they've got him as well. You start thinking, oh, fucking hell, how far has this net been cast out? Picked that lad down south, the one that has the fucking hell, they've got everyone. And there's names you don't recognise because you don't know by the real name. You might have just got my code name or a nickname. You think, fuck me, this is bad. They've got a lot of us. There's one name we didn't see on there. There's a guy that was managing it for me. I thought, maybe he's a lucky bastard and he's got away with it. So the pen is beginning to sort of drop a little bit on that one. He does that? Yeah, yeah, we believe he was. Cause he got his money back that was seized and there was no charges brought forward for the Taser, which is a class two forum. That's like a, I believe them. She was like, oh, you can get something for that. Yeah, straight away. So how was it going through then of you? Well, like a fucking idiot, right? The first interview, let's say first of all, I was arrested again later. Now this is where me being the son of a fucking policeman comes into the difficulty side of things. Cause I'm thinking of myself. Trying to talk your way out of it? Sort of. Yeah. Not going to comment all the way. No, I'm not a prick. Why is it not? Fuck, you should have known about your old boy. Do you know what it was? I thought to myself, oh my God, I feel stupid saying this. I didn't want to come across as someone that looked like that was a criminal because I created this persona in front of my family, in front of my dad, in front of people that I knew that I wasn't. And I was really good at it because no one knew. You know, so I thought, well, let's carry that on for now. And I thought I can do it. And do you know what? Stupidly, I really liked the idea of a challenge. And I know it's my life I'm playing with, but I love the idea of thinking, can I fucking wing this? I didn't give anyone any name. I didn't drop anyone a shit apart from myself. Yeah, that's the main thing. As soon as you open your mouth, no matter if you're not mentioning names, you mention a destination, somebody you're connected with, you're fucked. No matter the association, no matter the connection. So as you open your mouth, you are fucked. Simple as. But you being you have tried to speak your way out, not realizing you're just fucking digging your own grave and getting more years added to your sentence. Yeah, the irony was, I won't go into that yet, but yeah, that is what undid me in the end. It doesn't mean it would have changed the result. It means I gave them. I gave them, because at the end, and it was a really good interview. I mean, I run parallels with everything to make things plausible. So every person that I knew who I sold drugs to, and I didn't have that many customers because when you're selling more, you have less people in your book. Maybe five customers. Every single one of those customers, I ran a legitimate parallel with them. They were a customer at the garage. I'd tune their car. I'd done this for them. So there was always a parallel. Yeah, but even though you think you're covered, that's still a connection. That's still a connection. You could be meeting anywhere. You could bump into them for lunch and it could be an accident. But if you're following that, they have photos to it where you're surveillance with them. It's still a connection. People that came out in home leaves, they speak to someone in the street that they've just actually bumped into. They can do a recall for association. Oh yeah, because I'm making an assumption that there's something going on. So see when you were getting your interview, did a part of you feel as if you were letting your dad down, your family down, but you fought. You were smarter than the system instead of being... Yeah, it was a level of arrogance. There was a level of arrogance. I wouldn't say arrogant in the sense of... No, it was arrogance. It was. I thought I could do it. I thought I could do this. And in reflection, yeah, what a fucking idiot. That's why my other interview was significantly different to that. But part of me thought that I thought I could beat it because I still had that military thing in me saying, you can do this. You can achieve anything. Positive thought, you can do it. And that military thing in there saying, fuck it, you're better than this. You're better than this. And if I'd have known, if I'd have had a... If I could have forwarded a decent brief, they'd have said, do not say a fucking word. I would have listened to them, but the brief I had said, what do you wanna do? And I said, well, I'll be right. He said, are you sure? Yeah, I'll be fine, mate, I'll be fine. He should have said, don't be so fucking daft, mate. Keep your mouth shut. Don't say a word. But I didn't get that advice. If I'd had someone a bit more stern with me, I said, do not say nothing. I would have listened to them and thought, okay, I don't wanna, I could go against the grain, but I'll do as you say. No matter how tough you are, though, sitting in the chair, man, two couples, good and bad, playing you like a fucking fiddle. People's asses go. People's asses go. It's scary because you're thinking, fuck me, they're threatening you with 15, 20 years. People just go, fuck it. I want out of here because it's the pressure, the closed environment, the smell. But I loved it. That's the worst thing, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that process. I liked the same as I enjoyed the court process. I liked the buzz it gave me because I knew that I was risking your life. Yeah, I felt it was all right. I thought, yeah, I know I'm gonna be fine. I know I'm in trouble, but I like teetering on the edge of that fucking knife edge and know that this is where, that's where I like to be. I like to be in that little zone where if you go that way, you're all right. If you go that way, you're fucked. I like living on that edge. What is that then? It's just me. I just like the closer to death I am, the more alive I feel. Adrenaline junkie? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, this guy diving, rock climbing, stuff like that. I wouldn't push yourself to the extreme. What about if you've all been tested for anything like? I don't know. Anything like, cause I had a big guy on, George King, great guy. He climbs buildings. He doesn't really sleep much, but that's when he feels, he feels more at peace when he's fucking hanging from a building, a skyscraper. Climb the shard and London again. What, free? Yeah, just hands, just climbed up it. Obviously it takes a bit of preparation, but living on that edge, no froze, but I think he's been dying nose with something. Can't remember where it is. Maybe KDAs, do whatever. Part of the drug taking was that as well, cause you're diving with death, aren't you? Take a pill, you knew it could be a lottery, you know, and the part of that was that I'm still alive. So, and things you experience in the forces, they put you to the point where you could be taken at any moment. When I was lucky, I didn't see any kinetic activity. I was lucky, my service was between, it was, I was at, I did Northern Ireland, but I didn't get shot out. I was nearly blown up on a couple of occasions, but and even anything, fucking hell, this is amazing. Cause I love the thought of that close shave. Have you ever been to Osado? Oh yeah, yeah, just on, just the ones I know who took my life in 2000 and five, six, back in the six, get me dates, right? Yeah, back into those in a second. Is all linked with that, with the facts last chapter on that one, the distress of deaths, it got too much. I was literally, I just, I'd given up at a mental breakdown, and I said, fucking bits. And I'm, I'd had enough of what I just wanted to die. I wanted out. I just wanted it out. I needed to get rid of the pain. So I was drinking, and I was, I was just no good. I just, I was no good to missies. I wasn't horrible, but I just wasn't there mentally. I was not in the room. And to try and feed a young boy and a baby, my youngest was just a baby at the time, couldn't support them because there was no money. It was a renders, you know, I was in a bad way. And I was scratching around trying to find money to pay this massive debt off from, from the keys, the kit, the coke that was taken by the police. I got a point for, fuck it, I can't do it anymore. So I said to myself, right, I'm gonna go to the doctors. And I did, I actually went to the doctor and I thought, I want help. I don't want to die, but I feel like I, I feel like it would be the, the, the way out right now to take away the pain. Went to the doctors and I fucking just burst out tears. And I tried, uncontrollable tears. Not just talking like a little weepy, weepy. It was fucking, I couldn't speak. I felt like I was four years old and had fallen over. It was that bad. I couldn't stop. And he said, he said, can you get to the hospital? I said, yeah. He said, are you, can you get there? Cause I'm worried about you. He said, I can. He needed to go there and get myself checked in and assessed. So I thought, now I know that I'm going to get help. I'm okay. I don't want to do it, but I still, still tempted. She got to the hospital, a French hospital in Bristol. And I explained the situation, told them that the business had gone out of, it'd gone perished because of the recession. I couldn't sell, I owed money for coke. I didn't really, it wasn't going to fit, was it? So I said, look, my business is struggling, which it was the reality was the garage was struggling at that stage. Well, sorry, not the garage wasn't open. My business was struggling. I had no money. That's why I came to get a doctor to assess you and say, you've got moderate to severe depression from what we can tell. So we'll get you on to fighting depressants. So let's stay out tonight under observation. And then, you know, tomorrow we'll get you to the doctors and get you, you know, depressants. I'm okay. So I thought, no, it's weird. I just led their thing about my life, where I'd ended up, you know, how did I get into this position? Reflecting on, I suppose reflecting on the time in the army, but more so, reflecting on how shit a dad was I when I can't really be there for my misses and my son and my, oh, sorry, my sons. So the morning came and then it was like back to reality. I thought, oh, God, so put me phone on that. I switched my phone off the night before and I was meant to be delivering stuff and rounding money up. Well, when that phone goes on, I'm going to get a fucking barrage of fucking hate mail from the person that I owed his money to. He said, where's my fucking dough? Where is it? I wasn't scared of him, but when I owe money, I owe money. That's it, isn't it? If you owe a debt, you pay it regardless of what you've got to do. And I let, I pushed the point where I was ready to fucking do anything to pay that debt off. So I sat in the car and I was looking at the phone, the thing I can't do it. So I had a knife, a little fucking boot knife, not for anything like attacking, but it was just in there. And I grabbed it and I sat and I put it on me fucking wrist and I thought, and I was pushing really hard on me wrist and I thought, I'm going to do it. I could see bits of blood appearing where I was just cutting the outer layer of the skin. I just fought with my boys and I fought with my sons and I thought, this is no way for them to grow out of the way of dad. I just put a knife bang, fucking throw it on the deck. And that was it. I was probably, if my sons and the populids made at that time, I'd have done it. I think I'd have probably gone through it. Scared a place to be. Yeah, it was, but after that, it happened. Do you feel I've released? Yeah, because I'd already been as low as I could be. And we've seen this thing and we do a lot of mental health. We know there's two points where you're at your most dangerous is they draw a curve like this, like a U-bend and draw a line across it like that. So what point do you most likely kill yourself? Most people say, well, when you're at the very bottom, to know it's going to be either there because you haven't hit your lowest yet or there on the way up because you feel you've got too far to go. When you're there, the only way really is up. It keeps on getting better. And that's why I was at that lowest level there. And I thought, right, that's as bad as it's going to get for me. I started climbing back up again. And then what changed was getting on the old fucking happy pills on the antidepressants because they were at the treat for me. I responded well. Minor dose of flux a team, 20 milligrams a day. Green and yellow pill, fucking lifesaver for me because it gave me, it put us, it literally put a spring in my step. And so for like a year, I've been stressing like fuck. I was, it wasn't, it was about six months, seven months, I've been in a bad way. Stressing, chasing money. And these antidepressants for me took away that sense of like I can't face the world anymore. And I could face the world again, I could deal with it. And that's when it changed. I started telling the guy that open the money so that, you know, you'll get the money when I've got it. You know, I am working, I'm doing my best. I will do it when I can. So yeah, suicidal was then, I've never felt like it again since because I've never been, I will never be in a place as bad as that again. You taken anything though? No, I came off, I was six months around him and I, I come off them and I was fine. Absolutely fine. I went back on them again when I got arrested because I felt fucking miserable. Yeah. It's understandable. I felt like, oh great. So I took, I went on again and what had happened, I'd come out of, I'd been remanded in Gloucester in 2011 in August. Was that for the FOSC conspiracy charge or the second? Second one. So I'd take that one first. Yeah, so how does, how does that happen? Both two conspiracy charges, was it the same charge? Same charge, different police force. So I was fucking annoyed. So basically I'd been given bail for the interview finished on the first one, me talking like an idiot. And they came back in after the interview. So the stranger things have happened, you're being released on bail for a fucking result. So I get to go into my wife now and explain what the fuck's been going on because you knew nothing about it. I think it was just business and all. I went back to the garage the next day, opened up, opened the doors, traded as usual and then I had to go back and sign my bail the following month in May. They charged me with conspiracy, which I was half expecting it anyway, but that kind of made me knew that now I've got to run a trial with everyone else that's on this case. But then it's just kind of just getting on my life. I was just doing a few, the garage was quiet, the recession was really quiet. We were ticking over, we weren't really making much money. It was still hard, still difficult and it was slowly declining. Now, what happened then is in June, my co-defendants or my suppliers, they got arrested. I've gone and seen him in April after I've got Nick. And I went to his garage, he had a garage as well, I run, I keep doing metal sport. I said, mate, we're fucked. I said, I've been arrested. They're watching me. They're probably gonna be watching you. He'd suffered a couple of arrests prior to that as well. And there's mirror in what's happened in my organization. He was suffering hits, same as I was. Only the trouble is it's where he owed money to the Serbians. So it is a very different situation than mine. I owed money to him and he was good as gold. He owed money to them and they were a bit more persistent in wanting their money back. So he had to keep trading. So in June, they all got nicked in his conspiracy. That was with Gloucestershire and Thames Valley. So it was like a combined effort to take them out a lot. So they all got nicked in June. So then I thought, fucking hell, he's gone. So that's it now, he's dead. There's no point in going. So I stopped. I'd actually stopped trading. There's no point really continuing with no customers. So I was out of it, you know. And then July came, July the 25th. And then I sat in my garage again, just minding me on business and some cars turned up outside of four on the back again. I wonder what they're back for. Maybe they've forgotten something presumed. I just thought it'd be even a summer set. I didn't want to send a whole brand new set of copies. Oh, the fuck are this lot? So Rich Jones and I sat and I said, yeah. So you're under the rest of conspiracies like, okay, and I thought, again, I said, how does that work? I said, I've been done with it. I said, now we're doing you again. So we're, we said, we're not, even a summer set, we're lost this year. We're arresting you on another charge associated with other people and oh, fucking hell. So they make me again. What evidence they have on you? Telephones. Just connection with the phones? Just coms, yeah. The catcher off the phone? No, not the burners, no. So how did the notes, yeah? Because there was an informant on the case. He was given the odd numbers. Now what happened to Southside over the investigation period of say six months, they were watching me. The burner phones, this is pre-Encro chat, were bounced on certain masts and over a period of time. And your house and your office? Well, I always took it apart in the office or at the house. It was never there, but there was a transit route or if I was in town on the meeting and I had both phones on me, if on the rare occasion I get a phone call in the same location on both phones, not at the same time, but in the same location, they both bounced for the same mast, wouldn't they? So over time they would pick up if they build a pattern and they'd make an assumption that these phones are yours. Yeah, so it's not just a case of, look, you've been on that phone there. That's a big case that they've surveilled it's new for a long time to gather that evidence. But for you to get a 15, now I haven't interviewed serious drug smugglers who smuggle 500 K a week, get eight years, 10 years. So for somebody that's doing a few boxes here in there to then get a 15 first offence, how the fuck does that work? I have no idea. So basically I was looking at the, when I was finding guilty, so I got not guilty on one conspiracy charge. No deal? No, well, this is the interview, right? So I went on the second interview with Gloucestershire and my brief, the same guy, he said, what do you wanna do? I said, so what do you suggest? You should have fucking sat down, man. Yeah, I know, I was legal later, I couldn't afford it, I've had no money. I was obviously on my ass. He said, don't say anything, mate. I said, well, like, nothing. He said, don't say a fucking word. I said, I like that, that's what I need. Someone to tell me, don't put ideas in my head. So I sat on the interview and I sat down as me, him, one copper there, one there. And the guy that was interviewing, he was arrogant and it was probably not his fault because I believe it was his first major case in soccer. He was heading up the investigation or he was given the responsibility to do certain things. And they got info from even a summer say, hey, this guy's right, he'll talk, he'll drop himself off right in the shit. And he looked at me and he said, right, confirm your name, yeah, Rich James. And then he goes off and looked at me brief and he's got his questions out and he starts asking questions. I just looked at him on that and looked at his partner like, and I was like, and he's looked at his partner and looked at the brief, he goes, is it this, is it a no comment or is he just thinking? And the brief goes, I just looked at me then he sort of asked it and then you can see he just went, he just deflated. And they asked me another question and I just stared at him again, stared at his partner and looked at the camera up there because the first one I'd done on a DVD, it was recorded visually as well as audio. And I had this routine, I just looked at him, look at his partner, look at the camera. That's all I did for three hours. I didn't say a fucking word. And if you see that he's had these questions like reams of paper for the questions, he had to read every single one out. I just looked in, just stared at him and went all the way through. And it was very satisfying, very satisfying. Why do you think that is? I think it's because it kind of reminded me of interrogation training in the army. At first I got to use it properly, apart from giving your name, rank and number. I just sat down and I thought, I wasn't gonna be bullied anymore. I wasn't gonna be pushed. I didn't like the idea that I was gonna be beaten. And part of me just wanted to, and you know what, I was just fucking annoyed that I'd been arrested again for the same thing. I was actually first, I was like, yeah, I expected this. I knew it was coming and I almost welcomed it because I was ready for it. I'd had enough, I wanted to get off that ride. But when they come around again, I was just fucking put out. I thought, nah, you can't do this, this is wrong. So I went in more into sort of like a, not an attack mode, but more of a like, I'm fucking digging in this time, mate. I'm digging in, I'm not gonna give you anything because I'm not fucking happy about this. And plus the names on the indictment, I didn't know I was working with fucking Serbians at the time. I thought, I don't recognize those names. I'm not gonna drop them in the shit. These fucking Serious people. As your two charges put into the one trial, was it two separate trials? Yes, this was the complicated thing they had to deal with because I was the only one with two charges. So you had Operation Kestrel, which is Bristol, which was my conspiracy. Operation Berlin, which was the other one, which is Glossinger and Tams Valley. Now I was the only one with two. So I was the only common factor between the two trials. And they had this massive loads of court hearings prior to the trial. So what are we gonna do with Jones? What are we gonna do with him? Should we do Severance? Should we do Join us? Should we join? Should we have one big fuck-off trial with 13 people sat in the dark or should we have two? And then if we have two, should we do Jones on one? Should we make him run two trials? Or should we make him run one trial with both counts on one trial? And they were arguing about what would be most effective to get a prosecution. And my defense was saying, well, no, let's give them a fucking chance. So what they did in the end, they put me on, they ran two trials, one for Rob Berlin and one for Rob Kestrel. But they mixed it all up. They had different people on different trials. So what they did is they said, well, let's take everyone. Let's put the guys at the top of the diamond on one trial. So let's get the Serb, my supplier, me and two other guys on that one. Not to confuse the jury. Not to confuse the jury, yeah. And one guy on there, he shouldn't even been on the fucking trial. And let's put everyone else on the other one, starting with a little, because some guys are pleaded guilty, which fucks us anyway. So you're thinking if they pleaded guilty, there's a chance that you could have got off or you're thinking, I'm going to fight it. Be naive with the intelligence against you. You're fucked anyway. Yeah, we didn't know what they had. Were you offered a deal? Nah, no deal, I'm not such fucking luck. I wouldn't have taken it. If they'd offered a deal, so if you got any names, I wouldn't have done it, I'd have gone down. But they didn't, they had a go. They wanted, I was the leading role. That's who they needed in that conspiracy. Yeah, yeah. And that's when you got to 15. Yeah. What were you thinking then? That's a fucking life sentence. Well, I was looking at the guidelines and I was trying to work it out because the guidelines are, you've got three roles in four categories, cat one to four roles, leading roles, significant and lesser. I'm trying to work, what's been fucking seized on these arrests? So there was one of the court, it was low purity, it was fucking awful. E got nicked with some four and a half ounces and that was a bit higher. E got nicked with an ounce, add it all together, right? That's fucking one and a half kilos at best, not even that. It's less than one and a half kilos, I think you're right. Now, do they take that into, do they think what, is it purity based? So do they account, is it one kilo of pure cocaine and not consider the volume? So I couldn't figure out what the guidelines were because they're quite... I'll try to figure out, is that what you say on a day, a week? Yeah, so what they did in the end was they calculated how much coke I would have taken from my suppliers and distributed. So they said, well, we know that he's gone down to M4 once a week, he's come back once a week and we know you're having at least a kilo. And we've got him logged for 22 journeys so we're gonna say you've had at least 22 keys. So they based it on that figure. But how can they do that? It's just the thing of a conspiracy. They'll say, right, over a lot of period of time, we know you sold this much coke. So they must have had a lot of surveillance on you then? On the routes, yeah, we've seen it. It comes probably on trackers. Yeah, it's probably fucked. So yeah, it's based on 22 keys. So in my head, I'm thinking, well, I'm category two, thinking less than a kilo, but it wasn't, I was trying to fucking nope. Worst case, low end category one, which is category one is between 12 and 16 years. I'm thinking, right, I'm looking at it, I reckon between 10 and 12. He might take some off because I was in the Army. Maybe that's a copper. He might fucking be even more for that one. I think he did. So came the sentencing and when he read out, he doesn't just say, you haven't fit, Mr. Jones would give you 15 years, take him down. He'll read out a bit of a paragraph and he explained how he's come to this conclusion and any mitigation, any aggravating factors, he'll weigh it all up and he'll say, I'll have my wife and my, I think my dad and a few friends in the dock and they'll sat there and I'm in me fucking someone else's jeans. I've been sent down. I've got, instead of being there in a prison track, so I'll borrow clothes to wear, and I'd fuck all those on my man and looking across at him. And when he says 15 years, in my adult, I'd add like 13 worst case. 11 was in my head for some reason. When he said 15, I thought fucking hell, I looked across at my family and looked across at that. My wife just fucking, she went and passed. She passed that one out when I had the guilty verdict, five weeks prior to that. And I looked across at my dad's face at that, he just couldn't believe it. Because I'd protested innocence to him, so I didn't do it that. So he's now thinking that his son's been given 15 years for nothing. And I just, all I'll do is I'll call you later and I just, that was it. I've been taken down the back. Did you ever have that conversation with your dad and end up? I've never got to. I've never got not rang to him. When he had his stroke in 2016, the thing is when we dad always wanted to sit down and say, I did it dad, I'm sorry. You're ashamed? Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, ashamed of what I've, of letting, not ashamed of how I feel, but ashamed of how he might feel, how it might reflect on him. Because that's important to me. And he's a good man. You know, he doesn't, but what I've realized is now, he doesn't really give a fuck. He's not actually that bothered by it all. What he's more fussed about was his son going to prison. Doesn't care why, you know? And I said to myself on more times, I can think he said, what's worse is people thinking you're in prison as an innocent man, or they're no any guilty of that offence. I thought what's worse? Which one's worse for my dad? Him knowing I've been turned into a drug dealer, or him thinking I'm in jail and I shouldn't be in there. Which one would cut you up more if you think your son's innocent, or if you're fucking out, which is worse? I think your son's unbeen innocent would be the hard one. I think so. Like if you just put your cars on the table and says, look, I fucked up. I'm sorry. He'd have knew anyway. He's not dafty, they've probably got some intelligence and read your case or whatever anyway. I think he's always known. I think he's just played the game. I think he's always played the game of like ignorance because... But that's when you and your father come together, just like yourself, being ignorant and naive to certain things, even though you know it's right or wrong. You've still done wrong. Your dad would have known exactly the same, but he was just playing the game as if I don't want to believe it, but I know what's going on. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? You know? And I don't think he's an angel. You know, when I came out of the army, he would be, him and his friend would say, oh, we need some retribution, Rich. Can you go and do this for us? And it'd be little things like someone might have fucked them off and I'd have to go and fucking paint up with our car with some fucking, you know, with some brake fluid or something. It was little things like to teach people a lesson. And that was my dad saying, oh, Rich, can you go and do this for $20, $50? And I think, well, he's not against a bit of fucking naughtiness, is he? He's asking me to do these things. So I'm thinking he's never bad straight. I'm not saying when he was in the police because he had a fucking good job in the police. He was like, he was right up there. I can't say what he was doing, but it involved, you know, he was doing bodyguard work as well. I can't really say much more than that, but he was right up there. He wasn't just walking on the street. He was, you know, a really good job. You know? So getting a 15 stretch, with absolutely fuck all to come out with, no money, still in debt, relationship broken with the missus, kids not going to see their dad lying, lying to your own dad. What the fuck is it all about then? Yeah. I think when I was inside, I had the opportunity to try and start confessing to people so that I did do it. I did do it. The only chance I got to do it is when was with my wife. She supported me all through the sentence. She was there all through. We're a very strong set of parents. We're no good as a couple, because we just didn't work out, you know? Because of depression and everything else. It just didn't work out. I was never in the room enough emotionally to be able to give her the love that she needed. You know? And same from her, and she suffered post-nut depression for both of our kids. She was in a bad way. So we'd gone through batch of depression on both sides. It was a very difficult thing, but we're a really strong unit for our kids. So she's never really... She said, you're an idiot, but why didn't you tell me? I thought, I couldn't tell you because you're then privy to it. You're then party to it. If you know, you're as guilty as I am. So we discussed it on the first couple of visits so you know, don't stress, I am guilty. I did do it, but it's just one of the things that I don't worry about. We just got the kids, that's the main thing. Told my mum, told her the truth on my first release on temporary license. I've been in like, fucking five years, but telling someone in a visits hall with those people around, isn't the right place to declare your guilt, if you like. Too many tears around men that you're not supposed to cry in front of? Yeah, you can't do that, mate. I've seen it, and I've been there, I've done it, you know? I'm saddened. When I had my first visit with, in Loudoun Grange, when my wife brought in our kids, my youngest was only six, you know, just turned seven, you know, and I came out into that visits hall and seen them, and we had a good visit. It was nice. It was the best we could have, you know? It was all that we could have at that time. That was it. That was going to be our family now. That's how we're going to have our family life for the next seven years. And when we got up and my son said, he didn't want to, he said, Dad, I don't want to go. And he was crying. He said, wouldn't let go of me. And of course, the screws in. Come on, we've got to get you back in. It wasn't like on the TV where they come and grab you and push you out of the way. They're very considerate. I said, come on, we've got to go. I said, let me, I said, I've got to go. Dad, I don't want you to go and he's crying. I was crying. It was horrible. It was really bad. And that was punishment right there. That was, that was my, that was my, yeah, that was my seven years punishment straight away. And that, in that sort of like 10 minutes, I was seeing the devastation of my son. Mildred was okay. He was a bit older. He was, he was coping better. But my youngest, he was seeing his dad being taken away from him. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Horrible, mate. Horrible. But then you've got to face the consequences when you're doing the bad shit. Yeah. That makes seem like a mad, weird question. But for you being regimented, did you handle prison better? Being inside, being in a kind of odd dragon? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. What I found was initially the emotional side of it. I compartmentalised things, stuck all the feelings from my family, my kids, my love of cars, everything I liked, everything I wanted to be a part of, removed the emotion completely, boxed it off. Didn't fucking need it. That's no good to me. I can't use that right now. It's no point having those feelings for anyone because I can't benefit from them. They're only going to cause me distress and pain. So I may as well just fucking bin those off and just get off my sentence. Once I've done that, I thrived. I thrived in prison because I had, and a lot of people do, it's not just a squirty thing. If you can deal with your emotions inside and deal with the fact that you are inside, you've got no control over that, or you've got limited control over your life, you do really well in jail. You can, you can, you can monopolise on it to a point. You can turn yourself around and you can create the better version of yourself. And that's what I did. Did me courses. I actually enjoyed being around some of the lads, which for me is that being a part of something, we had that common ground. Not big groups, but like me, I'll just satellite, I'll sit down and have a chat with a few people and I'll bail out under my terms. And I found prison, apart from the detachment, relatively easy. I enjoyed it. And being a veteran helped in lots of ways. Helped with the structure and the fact that we're used to being in an environment with barbed wire fences because the differences of the wires on the outside and the army camps and on the prison on the inside, we're used to being surrounded in a sterile environment. Not a problem. The prison's very much like that's a concrete jungle. And it's a very stag environment. There's a load of men around in that and you're used to that as well. So that hierarchy works and you know where you fit in. I can't believe you get a 15. It's fucking harsh, isn't it? What happens then for you when you get out, your life late for the last five, six years? Yeah, so you're on, someone licensed now. So with probation, so basically you get out. 2000. Do you know what it's fucking two years next week? So you've only been out two years? Yeah, yeah. Still fresh? Yeah, still fresh. How are you handling society and noise pressure again? First, luckily I'll benefit from think or roll. I don't know if you know what that is. No. So it's released on temporary license. So your last two years when you're in jail, you get moved to the open estate, like a cat day. I chose to stay in closed conditions because of my support with veterans inside. I chose to remain at a cat seat, but I still got released on a daily basis to work in the community. So that kind of, the first day out was fucking weird. Apart from the time I went to see my dad when he had a stroke, that was my first time out of prison in nearly five years. When I walked out of those gates for the first time, it was like a fucking wild animal being released into the wild. You weren't a bit hesitant. So I stood, they said, you're gonna work in the visitor center just across the road. So you're gonna go out, your turn right, you're gonna see the building, that's where you're going. And you've got so many restrictions on your paperwork, on your license. You're like, don't do this, don't do that. Don't fucking go out of your bar and just, you can't drink, can't this. Don't speak to anyone. Don't disrespect the public. There's so many things. You've got all these rules running in like a software in your mind, thinking, right, can't do this. And then so the restrictions are massive. So you walk out of prison, you go out via the vehicle log, where the vehicle's going. Big old doors, isn't it? So you go through a sterile area, which it is what it is. There's nothing in there, it's just an open area between the prison and the building, which you've got the gates to the outside. So you walk across that to these big fucking doors where the vehicles will come in with the sweat box, push a button and then you wait for it. Everything's waiting, you wait for 10 minutes or so. You're a beep and then you're near the mechanical door open. Fucking hell. I'm like, I'm one door away from the outside world and I've got cuffs on. I'm gonna be walking outside. So you walk into the vehicle lock, door shuts behind you. So you're then in this airlock, which is known for searching as lockers in there. And it's where the vehicles come in and they get checked for, you know, content, smuggling everything else. Go to small office at the end, there's the gate house or the gatekeeper. You give them your license, you show them that you're allowed to get out, you check your ID, you biometrics stand your finger so they know it's you and not somebody else. Once they're happy with it, they push the button for the outside door. It's a really nice April day and it was red hot. And the door starts opening and I saw the outside world for the first time as a technically a free man on license. I stood there, I was fucking looking around this door and the guy goes, call me, off you go. Like, oh, okay. And it's like ushering this one animal out of the cage to not quite sure what to do. I didn't know what to do. And I walked out and the air hit me differently. It's very different. When you're in prison, when the wind blows it, because there's so many high fences and buildings, it lands differently. It kind of whips around and you don't get gusts. When you go outside, you get a natural breeze, but you don't get that inside. And with that breeze comes smells, petrol, flowers, pollen, blossom from the trees. Because this is all on the trees at the time. So I walked out and I could smell all these smells and smell properly in years. And it's like a sensory overload. And it was mental. And just the fact that I had to cross the road, I'd not crossed the road in five years. I said, look, watch out for fucking cars. Because you don't get cars in prison. You don't get traffic in prison. So we have a road in prison for things like ambulances and works vehicles, which they go at a crawling pace, same speed as you walk. We don't get traffic. Do you go, look at the air, look for the cars over your go. You know, then that was really weird. And what if I'm really not disturbed with someone that got me the most, sat in this visiting centre, waiting to work, and I was working in the cafe. I'm pretty good at catering. So I'm all right with that. I'm comfortable with that. And everyone's on phones. I've had smartphones when I went to, well, iPhone 4 was like when I was last in, that's 2012. So I knew what phones were and I knew what smartphones were. I wasn't prepared for how many people had their heads buried in them, completely absorbed into their phones. And I sat there. I wanted to first phone ring. I fucking had to sit up and look around because I'd not heard a mobile ring in years. I didn't know what it, I knew what it was. I just not used to hearing it. And then I'm thinking, shit, that's not, I'm not supposed to hear that because I'm not, hear a mobile phone ring in prison. It's cause someone's got stuck out of their ass. You know, they're waiting to do this in the night. So they're waiting for the, waiting for the screws to fuck off so they can make their phone calls. You don't hear mobile phones ring. It just doesn't happen. It's to hear a phone ring on there. So it's like, oh, this is weird. And then handling money. Speaking to different people. And they're people. They're not prisoners. So your conversation is different. And they don't know you're a prisoner cause I don't look like a prisoner. Sometimes I don't look like a drug dealer or I don't look like this. I look more like a fucking copper than I do a drug dealer, which is problematic. You know, so all these different things that you're experiencing for the first time in all these years, it was really weird. But that's an LTP. That's a long fucking sentence. That's not just a slap in the wrist if you're getting 12, 1, 13, 1, if it's years and years of your life, where do you go forward now for the future retrograde to your plans? So what I've got now is while I was inside, rewind the clock to 2016 or go back even a little bit further, I was given the chance to be a veterans in custody rep. Yeah, cause I knew that I'd kind of identified that the one thing that's gonna keep me out of trouble was if I focus on something to help people out. So I got a job as a vet, a Vic rep veterans in custody. I did that job with drive and passion. I loved it. You know, I was meeting guys and on a daily basis going around supporting veterans, getting what they need. You know, if they got PTSD, let's get them referred to healthcare and all these sort of things I was really keen to do. And over sort of like about a year, I'd looked at these guys and I'd chatted to them. I thought, we've all suffered similar problems. The offenses were different. They ranged right across the board, all different offenses. But I'd noticed that we'd all suffer with our transition in one way or another. You know, we'd have a shitty time. We'd come out, certain things weren't in place, certain things weren't right. And I thought, there's gotta be something we can do about this. So I spoke to the intervention team which deal with things called programs. So when you go down, you're given a sentence plan. And that sentence plan will indicate whether you need support, whether you got to do a course, you know, whether you just got to behave yourself. And generally speaking, it means do a course of some kind. If you're in for violence, do an anchor management. If you're in for drugs, do one of the substance misuse. That ticks a box. Probationally, yeah, he's addressed his offender behavior. He's gonna be all right now. Let's let him out. It doesn't. It's just a tick box exercise. I sort of said to the people in charge, I said, look, do we have any interventions out there which are specifically written and engineered towards veterans who struggle in the community? So they did a bit of research. They said, no, we ain't got nothing. I said, well, can I write one then? And I said, look, I've got a lot of knowledge now. So can I create one? I said, yeah, you can do that. That's not an issue. No, look at that. So I did a route course. I wrote a course called Project TLS and I kept the TLS. People were saying, what's TLS mean? So I just, I kept because I already had the idea about the lost soldier. So I didn't tell him what the TLS meant. It means the lost servicemen or service personnel are gonna be politically correct. So I created this course based on 12 modules. And basically what it was, it was about a way of getting the veterans in, sitting a course with me. And I started delivering that in Oakwood like I see in 2016. I was delivering that course up until the year of my release. With great success to the point where the director of the prison said, look, we want you to come back when you're released and we'll look at it to run a secure funding for you to deliver that course in the prison to continue supporting prisoners or at least veterans. Then we'll try and get into other prisons and do that as your day job. So that was the plan with that course. Around the course I built a food bank working with Greggs. So we get all the uneaten pasties and donuts and we fatten up the squalors and do a food bank we were until COVID. I do furniture bank with the company we like to move it. And my day job at the minute is removals. So we get donated furniture on a weekly basis which we then refer to say through SAFA. It was a massive organization. And we will then see that we got a veteran moving into a house. He's got no furniture. Have you got any fridges, any units? Yeah, we'll donate that. We'll get it dropped down to free of charge. So looking after the squaddies and the trial service as much as we can with that. Well, that's during COVID but COVID is really sort of like delayed everything by at least a year. I'm just waiting for it to pick up again. For anybody watching that's maybe battling with suicidal thoughts, what advice would you give for them? Just get some help straight away. You know, it's hard. The hardest thing is asking for help because identifying that your mental health has taken a decline. It creeps up on you. Depression creeps up on you. And it's got a habit of biting you in the ass and getting the point where it gets so severe that you can become catatonic. And you don't want to do anything. You just settle that. Yeah, you don't even want to move anymore. And that's when you've gone too far. Samaritan's a good speak to someone, you know? But for me, it works taking out with a doctor. Anti-depressants work for me. They don't work with everyone. Look at your triggers. Look at what's got you depressed, you know? Things can be dealt with. I've dealt with my anxieties and my demons with something called EMDR treatment. I had treatment last year. That deal was a PTSD. Now, I found out I didn't realise I had PTSD. Is that where some of the twitches come from? Yeah, yeah, really bad. I've got a lot of stress on his eye built beside of me as well. And what? Is that why he's bottling everything up over the years? I think so, yeah. Yeah. That's why it's important to talk, eh? Mm-hmm. 100% yeah. You're granted a prison and saying, right, I'm just going to block out those emotions. Yeah. Once you come out, they're going to fucking arise again. Yeah. So it's difficult, but it's easier said than done because I've bottled all my shit up for years. It's only the last few years these chats, these are like fairy-pea for me as well. Yeah. Because I can understand at a deeper level. Yeah. That's what it's all about for people watching. They can understand at a deeper level that everything's kind of just all fucking fucked up. It's healing, isn't it? Yeah. Because I find talking about the problems with someone that knows what they're talking about or someone that's lived that same journey, you realise that you weren't on the right one and you realise, fuck, I could have dealt with that so much sooner. And EMDR for me was a miracle cure for anxiety. There's still stresses inside me. I know that because I feel it physically. I feel the physical manifestation of stress and anxiety. I don't feel the emotional side of it because EMDR eradicated that emotion. It helped me to box off my PTSD from my organised crime days, which was, it was quite severe. Although I didn't know it was severe, I've many triggers for anxiety. And it kind of dealt with that really well and it does work a tree and it deals with underlying issues. If someone is depressed, it can be linked from anything, from historically as a childhood. If someone knows what the triggers are, if someone knows why they got anxiety, they can be fixed with this treatment, you know? And it's amazing, it's mind-blowing and it changed my life massively. You've seen the world definitely now? Totally, I don't, my hypervigilance was my biggest problem, always seeing a threat, always seeing a problem, always kind of visualising that. I'll give an example, if someone, not so much now, if someone had left a negative comment on social media, I would see that as a threat. It's not, it's a negative comment. I'd have gone straight to DEF CON 5 and start fucking planning things in my head, like, I need to protect my Mrs, I've got to protect the kids, I've got a fucking right. Let's check outside the areas. Let's find out where they live. And I'm already planning things because I'm assuming the worst case scenario because in drug dealing, it usually is a worst case scenario. The threats are very real. Someone says, I come around your house, they come around your house and not coming alone and not coming without some sort of hardware. So the threat I took, literally, and it could be someone leaving a random, flippant comment on social media, I would see that as a direct threat to life and I'll treat it accordingly. And that's crazy. It really is, that's crazy presentable and that's, that was me, that's how I was in my head. But the EMDR took that away. It made me realise that triggers through experiencing my life, of the association of certain threats, maybe think that I've had to deal with things in a certain way because that threat is real. But it's something to realise that it's not. Knocks at the door for me were really bad. If I got knocked from the door and I wasn't expecting it, that's a problem for me. Don't care now, it doesn't matter. But it's good to identify with these things. That's where you can make the change and that's important. Would you like to finish up on anything, brother? I just want to thank you very much, mate. I've just enjoyed the chance to talk about it. Yeah, I know, I appreciate it. Rich, we're coming on today, brother. I'm telling you a story, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Now where is it? And people will leave the link in the description. All your links send me a remover. We'll put them in the description for people to maybe help you out with food banks and furniture and stuff like that. But God bless you, brother, I still have trouble and I look forward to seeing the rest of your journey. Also, we'll finish up TikTok. You're very big on TikTok. You're very full on TikTok. How can people get and follow you? As the lost soldier, which gets banned regularly. So I've got the lost soldier one, lost soldier backup, I've got a few accounts. So the lost soldier is the main one. There's literally thousands of videos. Anything on there covers everything. There's so much on there. That's why I get banned so much. That's been brother, God bless you and stay strong. Take care, thank you.