 Do you think factory farms would be considered kosher? Yes. Even God, the one you worship, wants what I want. Listen. God thinks eating animals is evil. You don't speak for God nor do I. God thinks it's evil. He doesn't. Look at the camera. No, he doesn't. You're arguing with God, basically. No, I'm not. Do not say that. You had animals. You can laugh to the camera or you won't. I don't know why you're struggling with it. No, I'm not struggling. You're struggling here to understand. You're struggling to understand why you know the answer. Because I know you know the answer. You know there is a difference between somebody slaughtering a cow in an abattoir. What is it? And somebody slaughtering somebody on the street is different. What is it? No, I want you to tell me if you know there's a difference between the two. If you're unable to do that, you're being disingenuous. I don't eat either. You're not straw manning it. No, I'm not straw manning it. I'm making an analogy. I'm not saying you're saying that. You're making a lie to the camera, making a straw manning. No, I'm not. This is an analogy. You're not following. You're not following. You're not following. You're not following. Don't tell me what I think. Don't close over what I think. The way I see them is their lifestyle. They're akin to a product that is farmed. I feel that if the people of South Korea vote to say that it's fine to farm dogs for food, that's their prerogative. And if they vote to say it's fine to farm humans for food, you're okay with that? The cameras heard you say this a few times. Why do you not eat meat? Which people have been doing so? Because it's raw. I don't find it raw. Because they're cows. If I personally like a cat more than a dog, can I stab the dog with that? Possibly breed them, take their babies away, put them in factory farms and essentially put them in a slaughterhouse when there's vegan alternatives available. Yes. That's fine? Yes. Morally permissible? Yes. Okay, you don't see an issue with that at all? Moral issue? All right, we're back out here, London, Leicester Square. We've got a table here. It says why aren't you vegan? Pretty simple discussion table. See if we can just have some discussions. We want to talk to the general public and ask why they personally aren't vegan and see where it goes. Maybe lions might be brought up. Gideon, nice to meet you. Gideon, sit down, mate. I'm not that long, but I'll give you as much as I can. Are you not vegan? No, I'm not vegan. Okay, and why aren't you vegan? Because I enjoy meat as part of my diet. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, are you still as well? So why do you think someone might be vegan? Because they have moral kind of dilemma about the life of an animal and they don't believe that sacrificing life now was worth the assessments when you can find alternative food sources. Yeah, I mean that's a pretty good description. I'd bring in like animal rights violation, like the violation of their rights. Okay. Like their right to not be enslaved and murdered against their will and things like this. Sure, I think we'll have to have a debate about definition then. Because murder isn't specifically towards animals, that's towards people. Slavery, again, is something which is a word framed for people enslaving other people. Do you want to do definitions there? I think so, yeah. I understand your meaning by it, but with me, there's a clear definition with those words. Well, you might have a definition, but do you want to talk about definitions that apply to animals? Because I can pull a few up if you want. If you'd like to just look at the Collins dictionary on that now, so you're going to look at what the definition of murder is. To murder someone means to commit the crime of killing them deliberately. To murder a person, yeah. To murder someone. To serve. So what does that mean, someone? Do you think animals are things? I think they are livestock sometimes. I'm not going to ask if they're things. What do you mean by a thing? So a thing is another word, which I'm not sure about. Animals have... Do you think they're having their own subjective experience? They have their own experience, yeah. Do you think there's a subject experiencing the reality? A subject experiencing reality. You know, like how an individual having that experience, like... Or having a conscience. So being conscious of the experience of feeling pain. Yeah, like, yeah. So if I cage an animal and burn them alive, is someone experiencing that pain? Yes, no, I think that's certainly right. So they're not things, are they? So here we go. This is Collins Dictionary Murderer. To kill brutally? To kill brutally a person. Okay. Someone. Where does it say person, then? Well, it is. Does it say person? Generally, yeah. Does that say person, then? To kill brutally. Again... Where does it say person? It doesn't say person. Okay, so that's one that applies to animals. I've got more. I wouldn't say it applies to animals. I still think the general usage of murder is towards people. So for example, murder... Who's one? To kill intimately or barbarously? Again, warfare, yes. Who goes to warfare with animals? No, it says as in warfare. As in warfare. Yeah, but... But not necessarily. So again, it's a legal definition. Here's another one. If I take... I understand what you're trying to say here. But we're at a disagreement. And it's not wrong to be disagreeing with somebody. You're disagreeing on a dictionary, but I'm just reading the dictionary. No, I'm telling you, there's a legal definition. There's a legal definition. The legal definition. Yeah, exactly, which applies to humans. So when it says to kill someone brutally as in warfare. It doesn't say someone. To kill as in warfare. To kill as in warfare. No, no, no. That was the second definition. The first thing I showed you said to kill brutally. Do you think it'll be more progressive to probably discuss why that's wrong to kill an animal rather than discuss the word... No, but you're bringing up a complaint with the word that I use. It's not a complaint. Yeah, you are. You're saying it only applies to humans. And I can pull up about... There's about five definitions. Well, I think... More that applies to animals as well. There's a definition that I'm using is the word murder plus the legal kind of definition of it, which will replace the people. Yeah, but that's the one you're using. Yeah. But you're saying the one I'm using is wrong. But I'm pulling out dictionary definitions and you're saying they're wrong. So who's wrong? The dictionary... I disagree with that. It said to murder somebody such as in warfare does not apply to insects. What about to kill brutally? To kill brutally, as in people. That's all subjective under the term. It never said people. So the reason why they draw the definition... We'll put up the definition here. It doesn't say people. Okay, you can put up the definition. It doesn't say people. No, I'm pulling it up for the people. But they can look it up. There's plenty of definitions that applies. Absolutely. There's also to slay wantonly. To slay wantonly? Okay, I understand. And does it say to slay human beings wantonly? No, but the point being is... The point being is... I'm using the legal term here. So you wouldn't go say somebody's murdered a fly. That might be your definition. Yeah. And it might... There's a legal definition. And the implied definition by that definition. There are also dictionary definitions. Yeah, and the implied definition. And are you saying those dictionary definitions are wrong? It implies that it's a person. It doesn't imply anything. It says to kill brutally. To kill brutally, as in warfare, so on and so forth. Yeah, that's another one. So... But then there's to kill brutally. Didn't mention humans or animals. So it can apply to both. No, but we... And it says to slay wantonly. No, but we... We can stay on semantics if you like. No, I'm trying to get over this, because you seem to be hung up on that one. I'm trying to say, I do believe it is wrong to torture animals, of course. Can the word torture apply to animals? Torture can apply to anything, yes. Okay, and why can't murder? Because murder is implied for people. Based on what? Based on the legalese of it being illegal for you to murder something. No, no, that's a legal definition. One second. Are there other definitions of the word murder that aren't used in a legal context? The ones that you're using, which takes that word and applies it to animals, I can see what you're doing. I'll say it applies to both humans and animals. I would say it... No, for me it doesn't. Okay, so you're denying dictionary definitions now? I'm denying the definition that applies to animals, applies to people, murder. Because murder is used in different connotations. I don't care how it's used. I'm saying that it can be used in both contexts. I mean, you don't care what I think, and I actually care about what you think. No, I said I don't care how it's used. It can be used in both contexts. You're saying it only applies to humans. I'm saying there's different dictionary definitions that also apply to animals, and you're denying reality. Of course, that does not deny reality. I just wrote them out to you. How much more evidence... Someone will be rude to you and say to somebody, there's no evidence. It says it implies people. So warfare. So kill brutally such as a warfare. What animals have been killed? Who's gone to war with an animal? I just showed you to kill brutally. It doesn't say warfare. I'll put my point of view across credit. If you can disagree with the all you want, that's absolutely fine. I'm saying you can definitely murder an animal. The reason for this is that it does... People, when you say murder, it also crosses over into the legalese where that is a tribal offence, which is a criminal offence. So that... And that is strictly tied to people. That's a legal definition. I'm not disputing that. That exists. I'm also saying there's other definitions that exist, but you're disputing them. No, it overlaps. And I'm telling the context of this. So when you ask me... Can you dispute definitions that exist in the dictionary? The words that I use. So when I use the word murder, I imply it in the dictionary which is murdering the person. That's what you use it for. I just told you what I use it for. Yeah, exactly. I'm just denying it. I've got no disagreement with that. I understand why you use that. We've been disagreeing... We've been disagreeing for the last 10 minutes. I understand why you disagree with that decision. I think you're trying to make me out like a little bit like I don't know what I'm talking about or something with the word murder. Like it applies in both contexts, depending on your definition. I would say someone an abattoir slaughtering. The slaughter can apply to humans as well. It can apply to humans but slaughtering an abattoir is not murder. That's what I would say. And why? Because the murder is a legal term which is an illegal activity taken against a murder. That's a legal definition and based on my definitions, is it murder? To kill brutally? To kill brutally an animal. Now, brutally, it depends if it's going to be humane. Shooting them in the head with a bolt gun and cutting their head off is not brutal? Well, after they're dead, cutting their head off and using the meat as actual meat itself is I don't have an issue with that. I'll ask you if it was brutal. I didn't ask if you had an issue with it. No, I wouldn't say it was brutal. So that's not brutal. If I did it to a human being, would it be brutal? I'd say it's a different standard to play. No, I'd ask you if it would be brutal. To shoot them in the head and cut their head off and eat them, would that be brutal? Yes, it would be. And why isn't it brutal for animals? Because livestock is a part of humans natural food. So why doesn't that make it brutal? I just want to know why you think it's brutal to cut a human's head off but not brutal to cut an animal's head off? Because it's different levels. So let's say an animal. So let's say I slap a fly or a mosquito in my room. A mosquito has trivial sentience compared to a cow. So it depends on the level of sentience. So where does it start? We can't even get to mosquitoes if you haven't even agreed cutting a cow's head off as brutal. I don't think it's brutal though. Why would we go to mosquitoes if you can't even agree cutting a cow's head off as brutal? Because you said animals. Well, I'm talking about in the slaughterhouse context honestly. I don't think that's brutal though. Okay. But it is brutal for humans. I think it's brutal for humans. And why is it... What is the characteristic that separates humans and animals? That makes it brutal in one context and not brutal in the other context. Let me set back one second. I think it is brutal to cut a head off an animal for no reason but to cut a head off an animal. So now it is brutal. It's depending on the context. Yes. So if I was to cut a human's head off a food that would not be brutal? It will be illegal. It will be murder. No, no, no, no. I don't ask if it's legal. Take legal of the animal. I've made my position very... Okay, one second. I don't know why you're struggling. I'm not struggling. You're struggling here to understand. You're struggling. So basically, in the context of food in the context of food it's not brutal to kill livestock. No, it's not. If you cut the head off. But outside that context it is brutal, right? For people, yes. No, no. Five seconds ago you just said outside the context of food it's brutal to cut the head off a cow, yeah? Yes. Okay. So inside the context of food is it brutal to cut a head off a human? People don't eat people. No, it's a hypothetical. I'm just trying to test your ethical view because I want to see if there's a contradiction then we can go from there. Okay, absolutely. So in the context of food let's just say there's a human being here we're killing for food and I cut their head off. That is no longer brutal now. Yeah, it's no longer brutal because I just send back into the legal definition of murder. That is murder and that you're killing another person is murder. I just said don't worry about definition. We're having a moral discussion. We're having a moral discussion, dude. No, no, because there is a special thing over there. Okay. We're murdering another human being. And if it was illegal to do this to animals it would then be brutal. No. It's not about the context. It's not about what the law says. What I'm trying to say is is a certain thing when it comes to a person murdering another person which is in itself one thing. That is a thing which is elevated. Do you know the difference between morality and legality? Yes, I do. Okay. It's not a legal discussion and not a legal discussion because obviously animals don't have rights. It's like being in the context of slavery back in America. Those beings didn't have rights and it's going well, it's illegal to enslave white people. It's a very basic conversation which you're now straw-manning. No, I'm not straw-manning. I'm making an analogy. Did I say that slavery was okay because it was legal? You're not following. You're not following. You're not following. You're not following. You're saying it's only wrong for humans because it's illegal. I'm saying let's just say I was having this discussion back in times of slavery and it's completely legal and fine to enslave black people. One second, I'm just... It's not perfectly fine to enslave black people. I'm making an analogy. I'm not saying you're saying that. You're making an analogy for the camera, making a straw-man. No, I'm not. This is an analogy. I'm making an analogy... I'm having this discussion not to listen to you monologue. I'm making an analogy about legality versus morality. So, if it's illegally to enslave white people... It's not to monologue by yourself there. You can. It's like walk away. You can monologue what you want. Well, I'm trying to make a point about legality versus morality for you and the difference. I understand that. I know the difference between the legality. It doesn't matter if it's illegal or... The issue that I've got with you right now, I'll tell you the issue that I've got with you right now is I've tried from the very beginning to try to make clear, besides definitions or anything like that, I believe very clearly there is a difference... You denied the definition of murder straight to my face so we couldn't move forward. There's a special thing when a person kills another person. You don't want to... You can say murder... It's... It's legal. I'm talking about morality. No, it's not about legalies. I believe on a spiritual, everything sort of level that a person killing a person is very much different from a person killing an animal. Okay, so what is that difference? The difference? Steal it out for me. The moral difference between a human and an animal. One is wrong. One is not wrong. So I'll ask you the question. You think that somebody... No, you're asking the question. I'll ask you a question. No, but you know the answer because I know you know the answer. What is this specific trait? You know there is a difference between somebody slaughtering a cow in an abattoir... What is it? And somebody slaughtering somebody on the street is different. What is it? Is there no difference to your mind? Is there no difference to your mind? I want you to spell out the difference. No, I want you to tell me if you know there's a difference between humans and animals. If you're unable to do that, you're being disingenuous. I don't eat either. You've invited me to sit down and have a conversation. I asked you an answer. So I'm asking a simple question is do you think there's a difference between slaughtering a person on the street or animal and abattoir? Well obviously I don't eat either. So obviously I think there's a consistency here that I follow because that's why I'm eating. But eating or not? But eating or not? But listen, mate. You're the one who's not vegan here. But I'm interested to know. You pay for the decapitation of animals and not humans. But I'm interested to know. So you have the contradiction. You're putting me under fire. I don't pay for the decapitation of cows or humans. You do it in one context and not the other. I understand that. And I can see why you think there's a contradiction. But I would like to know from your point of view because I've never been a vegan and you are. So I'd like to know from you is there a difference in your mind of slaughtering a person or slaughtering a cow? He has a contradiction here. I'm asking a question if you're not able to do that. Okay. I'll answer your question because I don't think you can answer it because I think it's going to expose the contradiction. That's why you're dodging. Do you think there's a difference between slaughtering a person or slaughtering a cow? Which is what I asked you. Do you value each life equally? He's asking my question back to me. Do you value each life equally? No. I don't value each life equally. Okay. Do you think there should be a definition attached to the difference? What do you mean? You say there's a difference between murdering an animal in an abattoir and murdering a person on the street. Well, there are differences between the beings. There's a difference between a human being and a cow. But there's no less important in that event. There's no less serious. No, a human being is more important for a myriad of reasons. Right. And it might be their depths of experience, people that care about them that also have a big depth of experience. I'm saying it's not justifiable to capitate the cow for a sandwich. Yeah. Right? That's what I'm saying. Okay, I understand. And I'm asking you, you're saying it is justified. You're saying it's not justified for humans. I was just trying to find out what the morally relevant trait is that makes it not okay to kill a human and eat them, but okay to kill the cow. I was asking you to just tell me what that characteristic is. Because we're special for some reason. Do we are more intelligent? No, because when it comes to livestock, though they are sentient, the way I see them is their livestock and they're akin to a product that is farmed. It might sound quite cold and dead. And that's the difference? That to me would be a massive difference. So if we dictate their livestock, their product, and their farms, that is what makes it justified to kill and eat them, even though you know we don't need to. Well, you say you don't need to without supplements. Modern times know we don't need to. You're absolutely right. We could just apply that rationale to dogs, to chimpanzees, to gorillas. And we can say because we dictate that their product and their food, we can now decapitate them, put them in factory farms, decapitate them. You're right. It's definitely a contradiction because, I mean, for example, they do farm dogs in South Korea, for example. And I don't find that okay. And that's a very interesting thing because that is massively a contradiction. I admit I've got a contradiction in that. So that must not be the difference. No, you're right. It's a contradiction. That is So what is it about the cows that make it okay to kill and eat dogs? Because it's an established cultural food form which can be farmed. It's established in, you mentioned Newland. Oh, cultural historically and things like that. It makes it easy. If it's established culturally to kill and eat dogs, is that okay then? Well, it depends. Now this is, I would say if there's a general consensus in South Korea would be Just asking you, this is your morality, not theirs. I'm asking you, is it okay if it's established culturally, is it wrong? I'm stopping you doing it. What do I do? Is that the question? No. I'm asking you, do you think it's wrong? You're saying it's right because in the cow context, it's established culturally and we dictate that their food and we farm them and their products. In the context of farming dogs, it's established culturally. They've dictated their food and products. Is it wrong in this context and still right in this context? In my mind, I wouldn't do it. But if the general of South Korea votes to say that it's fine to farm dogs for food, that's their prerogative. Okay. And if they vote to say it's fine to farm humans for food, you're okay with that? But that's different because we've already established with this conversation that you find it different. I want to know. You said for a reason. Plethora of reasons people are elevated above animals. You said that to me. I said it doesn't justify stabbing cows to death. You're saying it does. I'm saying it doesn't. I'm acknowledging that there's a difference between us. I'm saying that difference doesn't justify stabbing cows. I put it back on you. You're saying that difference and now I put it in the dog context and you're not comfortable with that. Which is a contradiction. Yeah, it's a contradiction. I agree with that contradiction. And then you said if they all vote that it's okay to kill the dogs, therefore it's okay. So Mike's makes right. If we all vote that it's okay to... Well, no. I was telling you going back to this. We said this twice. If the camera's heard you say this a few times. If there's a minority in this country and we all vote if the majority vote to kill that minority, does that make it okay? It does. Also okay is subjective based on needs do needs must. So at the moment it's okay to kill the dogs because you can perfectly bounce your diet out. You can take supplements if you need them and you can live a healthy life without injuring any animals whatsoever. If this situation was different where you'd actually require me as a part of a diet for you to live and your family to live that you might have a different answer there. So who cares? So who cares at what? Who cares about a situation that doesn't exist? Situations do exist around the world where it's part of a healthy diet. I'm talking about me. You sitting here right now. No, but I'm just saying that so it's not... So you right now it's not a hundred percent anything because that you needed to what you would be different, wouldn't you? So would you. Or maybe I'd be not in civilisation or something. No, but so would you. If these do needs must then you would take. I'm asking you in this situation right now sitting here in civilisation in the UK. What is your justification to do this to cows when you have a double standard for other animals and human beings? Because it's part of my food source. It's part of culturally accepted and I don't know you say if we vote for this sort of thing. We already went over this so you're repeating arguments we've already discussed. No, but it's also culture to choose to be a vegan as well. People have been doing so. Because it's wrong. I don't find it wrong. Because they're cows and if I replace the cows with dogs all of a sudden you've got a problem. Well I wouldn't want to eat a dog because I've got an affinity with a certain animal. Yeah and do you think that's a morally relevant trait that justifies stabbing one animal? If I personally like a cat more than a dog can I stab the dog to death? It's a personal choice though isn't it? Some people would eat fish, some people would eat eggs some people would personal choice to people what they eat. It's a personal choice to go out and gun down people too. I don't think it's so personal when other people are arguing that it's as bad as somebody who's just got full range. I'm asking you you eat cows. Well I'm trying to yeah of course I do. You can't even get off cows so why are we talking about other people? Because I'm trying to work out where the buck stops and stops at you. You're asking me for consistency but you will you have clear contradictions here. The fact that I won't eat a dog because it's not well number one if I understand that. You're asking me because you see how you're trying to find inconsistencies in my world. There's a reason why I won't eat dogs as well. There's a clear contradiction in yours. But certain animals I won't eat. I won't eat worms not because I don't find... Do you think certain animals you feel like it's wrong to eat? Well if you ask me on a spiritual level yes because I'm a religious kind of guy and I'll follow the teachings of my religion to do so. What's your religion? I'm Jewish. Okay. So I wouldn't eat dogs it's not kosher but also I've not brought that up because that's not the beyond end or also I... Is that why you think humans are special? I think people are special yeah. Why is it because God is special to us? What you believe is up to you completely. Because I want to know why you would destined a cow to a slaughterhouse. What about... It doesn't mention anything about gorillas in your religion. Do you think it's morally okay or permissible for me to get gorillas forcibly breed them take their babies away put them in factory farms and essentially put them in a slaughterhouse the same slaughterhouse that cows go to for example so I can just eat their flesh when there's vegan alternatives available. That's fine? Is that a moral issue? I'm going to see a moral issue with farming with dogs either they do farm dogs in South Korea for example and I don't find that okay and that's a very interesting thing because that is massively it's a contradiction I have a bit and I've got a contradiction in that So now you don't have a moral issue with farming dogs? No I don't I wouldn't eat them myself because I like dogs So like in Eulen they take the dogs they boil them alive is that fine? Causing unnecessary pain is a different thing That's not unnecessary for them to get pleasure out of it Which is horrific Why is it horrific? Because you don't care about animals We're better than animals Who said I don't care about animals? You said you don't care about gorillas being factory farmed Do you know what a factory farm is? No I don't They put them in small cages They're called like a farrowing crate They might put them in a cage They separate their babies They often mutilate them They're kept in prison in confinement and they make them grow really fast and they often get like a certain you know floor and get decapitated Do you think all that's fine for gorillas? First of all I would know about factory farming how it works I don't believe causing unnecessary suffering to any creature is right So why do you think I know it's difficult because ultimately I would want to put the boxes on What do you mean by unnecessary? Well a quick death Do you eat chickens? Yes of course Where do you think they come from? They come from batteries a lot of them do Is that unnecessary suffering? That I don't know I don't know what you mean by the word necessary Do you mean like needed? I mean for example boarding something alive that you can simply slaughter an animal without having to do that But they're doing it for pleasure I mean why else do we eat meat because you like the taste Because you like the taste and it's a part of my balance Yeah So they're doing it because they're just generating more pleasure out of eating the dog Who are you to say what's necessary and unnecessary Exactly and who are you to say you fit in this You're saying it's wrong to boil dogs alive it's okay to factory farm gorillas It's wrong to put cows in No, don't tell me what I think Don't close over what I think Flashback Do you think it's morally okay for me to get gorillas forcibly breed them take their babies away put them in factory farms and essentially put them in a slaughterhouse That's fine Morally permissible You don't see an issue without at all Moral issue End of flashback We're recording it Yeah of course you are The actual sequence of what they do to factory farm a gorilla in that way I'd think that's unnecessary suffering and I would disagree with that Of course I would do So why do you eat chickens if you believe factory farming is unnecessary suffering Well it depends the way you said that they put them in cages they torch them They put the pigs in farrowing crates with their pigs But chickens are kept in big large sheds between 20 and 50,000 in a shed and they're growing so fast they can't support their own body weight and a lot of them die on their faces in the farms and get sent to a slaughterhouse to be gasped I would be a proponent of any way possible which is feasible to make sure animals do not suffer in that sort of way I don't want animals to suffer to be on my plate I understand that I don't mind them being slaughtered I've got no problem taking out a shotgun shooting an animal peeling it taking the organs out and cooking up I've got no issues with that I wish because it's part of my food It's part of diet It's not a needed part of your diet It is because I don't want to take supplements I don't have many studies which I don't actually know because I'm not actually I don't want to pull out the science mate because unless we're going to go through data here it's probably not Are you aware of any problems with kinds of Alzheimer's and things like that people on vegan diets for long periods of time I've had saturated fat I think the small vessels in your brain and that vegan diets have lower saturated fat cholesterol So one you don't want to support suffering No, I'm not needed suffering because obviously killing something is going to make it suffer like eggs fish chicken You haven't got any of that Yeah, well we have because they all entail egregious suffering for all these animals Do you live here in the UK? I do live here Okay, so the industries here in the UK they all have egregious elements of suffering that are needless So I mean rather than saying stop it right now which is what you want to do because you want to be able to be vegan because you care I'm just saying how do you justify personally not being vegan when you don't want there to be how would you make the system better so there wasn't so much on the necessary system? Just boycott it destroy it in order to meet the demand you have to mass breed these animals and put them in these conditions in order to so every single person here now 8 billion people on earth want meat, cheese, milk, eggs and they're living in a fairytale land thinking they just live on the grass and then they get a nice painless death and then they end up in the supermarket Yeah, and the actual reality of it is a very painful if you can agree that's horrific at least then you at least have to agree that if you could come from there I'd say that meat is a part of the human food source and it's also I know it's a choice that you can now nowadays supplement things like with a very healthy life So what do you think I'm supplementing each day? B12 maybe Sorry? Yeah I mean B12 let's talk about B12 because that's one of the ones we should supplement Can I just stop for one second this has been rather heated which is actually I've enjoyed the conversation I've learnt a lot because I don't actually think about these things how it ends up in my play and I can thank you for that I also do much respect you and your position I do respect vegans as well who who stick by their moral compass and say that this is absolutely wrong What I'd like you to understand from my perspective is yes if you put down a picture of a cow being it's a horrific thing but I accept it as part of the culture and part of my food source and part of the farming process and people have been doing this for I don't care how long someone's done something for No but that's why I respect that It doesn't make it okay after time I think it's just a part of the human experience and also part of being an omnivore It doesn't sound like a moral justifier I think it's omnivorous omnivorous I want to eat humans who cares I mean the fact that I'm a natural omnivore opportunistic eater in nature justify killing people and eating them Well it doesn't but you've already had this conversation where you think there's there's two different things based on that experience Listen I clearly said even though I think some human life is more valuable than animal life I don't think all human life is more valuable I think some humans are scum and they deserve to rot Well that's not for you to say but I would agree in part Well yeah well you know there's a lot of evil people but I'm just saying if you talk like a normal human being they're just like an average human that's not going to be causing a bunch of needless killing over their life you took a normal human normal cow all things hold equal yes the human is more important because of their depth of experience and I care about sentience right now I didn't say just because one's more important therefore a cow is less important than my taste buds or being stabbed in the throat in a slaughterhouse and killed it just might mean that they have different needs so therefore they both deserve a right to be murdered but a human might have a little bit more over the cow just because of their experience right and then you have a mosquito which is down here which will bite you and give you malaria which I don't care give a shit about because they're just like trivial sentience they have barely enough to know where they are but a cow we're talking about cows on par with a human child okay well I wouldn't think that but I can understand well like a three year old no when you don't have to think of it they're just as intelligent I raise people about livestock and animals I do I work in the spiritual side of things because there's no point discussing that we can talk about why you think humans deserve to stab animals to death for a sandwich while we're so like important there's a lot of things to be said about that I mean animals across the world obviously being slaughtered on mass for food is that there's other animals which are obviously kept as pets we are in care of them do you have dominion in this horror? dominion over animals God gave us dominion over animals that's the S do you think dominion means to selectively breed them mass enslave them and then capitate them all for a sandwich I think that's what dominion means so we're talking about Taurus we were talking about 2000 years ago we're not talking about when they had supplements and things like that you're not talking about when they had this amount of people on earth where they need to meet the demand with factories I think there's I've consciously recently tried to eat a lot less meats but only because for health reasons and things like that I've chosen not to you seem unsure about the healthy nature of a plant based diet no I think that you can't be eating steak for every single meal and be healthy but why I thought if God made it animals to be eaten infinite amounts of it well there's a lot of things they were omnivorous there's lots of things you can have you can't drink too much water that's poisonous yeah I get that so if we're allowed to drink water why can't we just drink 50 litres a second yeah that's a good point because you're dying that's a good point it's balanced it's part of a balanced diet unless you choose not to and you have that with supplements then you can choose not to yeah I mean you keep saying supplements I don't supplement much dude like it I mean you keep saying I have to have all these supplements it's like vitamin D3 in a cloudy country and B12 people choose to get that from me as a part of a balanced diet and I've got no issues do you supplement vitamin D3 in England no so if you care about supplementing you should be getting vitamin D people keep screaming supplements as soon as I ask them to stop cutting animals heads off so it seems like they're not really that focused on their health and to us between the two of us between one place and there's very solidified arguments I'm coming towards you based on what you've said what you've said also especially the scalability of it now if there are more people on this planet and to scale up production would increase suffering would increase make conditions even worse than they are now which you can call me I know aware of that I would start coming around to your side a lot more I think as being scaled up now it's pretty bad it's 80 billion land animals slaughtered every year and then we've got between one and three trilling marine animals you're making very good points and very well I don't know what it says in the Torah about causing animal suffering but I know they have kosher guidelines I can't support animal suffering you can't shoot animal that wouldn't be kosher for example you have to gash their product in a certain way I've seen it I've seen it and it causes about a minute worth of suffering to death have you seen kosher slaughter yes you watch it what do you think I think it's it's a lot of life it produces food I don't think there's any problem with it if you are religious I don't know how religious you are because it seems to me like someone who's pretty devout Jewish person would have brought these to the forefront of the discussion not at the end I mean I want to engage you with logic and good arguments spiritual thing is for me it's how I believe and I can't put that on anybody else but that's fine I just want to know why you believe what you believe and how you think those beliefs justify the conventional animal agriculture to start because you wouldn't be eating out of the like I said chickens eggs dairy you wouldn't be eating out of those places if you cared about causing animal suffering yeah so it obviously as I said it's kidding kidding an animal a minute suffering in fact any your religion the Torah was written 2,000 years ago before they had factory farms more than 2,000 years about 5,000 years now the guidelines about what is kosher to eat when they were written around the same time they'll be yeah the Torah it says very clearly what you can eat what you can't eat now imagine these guidelines been written today do you think factory farms would be considered kosher? yes what does it specifically say about suffering? okay so it's very complicated there are many books written in the town about what makes slaughtering kosher or not I'm not worse than that and we are talking I'm just talking about how you ought treat animals yeah before slaughter I don't know about how to treat animals before slaughter there will be something about how I mean I don't know that's the simple answer it's very complicated there's a little bit of history but then we have something in there about causing there'll be conversations there'll be conversations about suffering I don't know that I can't give that to you now okay there will be something there and it's something that I'd very happily read up yeah I mean it's your religion well I've studied that if it's your religion and you're eating animals wouldn't you want to know like what is in alignment with God's wish? yeah I would have asked these questions myself it's been done and that's how they slaughter in a kosher way it's prohibited to cause pain to animals yeah outside the it doesn't say that well listen you can't understand the full-town word on how to slaughter animals how to have kosher meat based on a two-second conversation I'm not going to get into that with you do you think it's permissible to cause pain to animals inside a factory farm for food? inside a factory farm causing pain you'd have to kind of clear that up unpack that a little bit so going in kicking the first what does your intuition say about about well suffering again it depends because they're going to be ultimately slaughtered for food so that's suffering involved there they're going to be kept in pens pre-slaughtering which will be obviously causing a form of suffering there so would that be kosher? yes factory farms are kosher then? no no the kosher slaughtering I'm not talking about slaughtering I'm just talking about what happens to them in the farm I don't know you jump into slaughter these are great questions these are kosher slaughtering these are something for a rubber this is very this is your religion and this is how you're basing your morality a lot of it yes okay so don't you want to know I want to know look it up in the teller fishing industry mass industrial fishing industry exists today right my argument is that these guidelines were written 5,000 years ago there was no factory farms back then now we have this abomination called factory farming where most of your food is coming from statistically it's a very good point and you didn't have the dairy industry back then they might have had one goat that they're taking some milk from now we have the industry they're impregnating cows taking their calves killing the calves causing the cow suffering selectively bred animals that can't support their own body weight and they're producing all this milk like this here is nothing close to how God created these animals these are human selectively bred animals bred to supper yeah all for human greed because it's not need okay because we have given plants as well yep do you have the garden of Eden in the garden of Eden okay the garden of Eden is completely vegan right yep if you have a plant it may be yours for food yep and do you have the same Isaiah 116 is it the same Christianity is that the lion will lie down with the lamb yes the lion will be straw like the ox it's translated differently and they're the same sort of life okay so God even wants animals to be vegan okay so understand where you're coming from does God want animals to be vegan who's got no the wolf will dwell with the lamb the leper will lie down with the kid the calf and the lion and the ox together and a small child will lead them that's in Olam Haba this is all the animals living in peace and basically harming each other yeah okay that's a big so even God wants that no I'm telling you even God wants what happens if you're talking about a religious context you need a messiah I mean even God wants that's not right when a messiah comes if you're talking about the religious context why not now if you're talking about God we're talking about scripture and that's what it says so that's the end of that conversation but I'm reaching God wants that though I'm reaching to a human why would God want the wolf to lay down with the lamb and you were using nature as an argument before to end it's natural to eat animals animals eat animals but God doesn't even want this it does until a messiah then it's along my brotherness then that's what happens God wants sin to God thinks eating animals is even evil I wouldn't agree with that if I could see then why would that be perfect paradise why would the perfect paradise be easy the lamb will lie down with the lion so lions are no longer coniferous you can start feeding it at lions all you want coniferous animals any coniferous just vegetables even God has a vision like this that's not painless that is going to be painful for that animal it's God's vision so this I'm explaining to you you've asked me a question allow me to answer it the question is you said is that going to be painless no it's not as it is now without a messiah without a lamb her bar we'll return it to Ghani and all those thought processes right now to give a coniferous animal anything but me will be painful to them I'm not saying that dude I'm not saying that dude I'm just saying principally philosophically even God the one you worship wants what I want the perfect paradise is when coniferous animals don't eat me and they do and you're arguing with with God basically do not say that again in Ghani Eden you had animals you can laugh to the camera or you won't you had animals who are coniferous now who did not eat me at the time are you coniferous? I'm coniferous so you have a choice right listen I've got a choice do you have a choice a lion doesn't have a choice right a lion doesn't have a choice but no you sorry don't move the goal post just saying you're saying God wants this because in Ghani Eden or everyone no one was meaty to everyone's vegetarian it's pretty clear that's your perspective God doesn't want you to a coniferous creature to eat vegetables that's not what they're made for when Mashiach comes God literally does I've read this in Isaiah 11.6 he does literally wants the wolf to lay down with the lamb when Mashiach comes back to Ghani and things are different so God does want that when Mashiach comes it'll land my bar why not you now because it'll land me all I'm saying is all I'm saying is what is this word you keep saying what does this mean Mashiach when the Messiah comes yeah Mashiach and what would be different about when the Messiah comes would this be a perfect paradise this will be when evil leaves the earth when evil leaves the earth when evil leaves the earth so you're admitting that God thinks eating animals is evil no but I've explained to you in the context of that I've explained to you you can't I've explained to you in the same way again it's not evil that a lion eats meat God thinks it's evil I'm saying well he doesn't and you don't speak for God in order to God thinks it's evil then what is this when the Messiah comes this is when it so another bulk so the idea is that we turn to paradise such as Gandhi uses it so will we paradise when the lions don't eat meat so it's not paradise now well no okay so it's bad now eat God's eyes no it's not bad so what is it he called it evil it's called evil in the Bible it's not evil I don't know what the Torah says but it's called evil in the Bible you know in the Torah it does say animals have dominion over animals and they use the food and it tells you exactly how to prepare them also if you look in the Torah it tells you what you need to do it's not evil slaughtering in the temple when you sin and you have to bring certain else the fact that farming doesn't matter to that man this is exploitation of God's creation no I understand but I'm not going to speak it for you mass suffering this is mass suffering I know you believe it's mass suffering and I don't believe it is it's objectively true well I don't think it's objectively true so you don't think factory farming is mass suffering I think the slaughter of animals for food is factory farming mass suffering the factory farming in certain conditions I know you are and you have a lot to tell me about that and you've told me very interesting things but I'm thinking the slaughtering of animals to eating of them that is not really absolutely fun God literally thinks it's evil for animals for each other you're not telling me what God thinks I'm telling you that's where we that's where we log ahead so we're going around on servers I'm really I'm just telling you what it says in Isaiah 11 6 I appreciate your time but anyway I wanted to have a religious discussion because I think it's incredibly interesting how can animals have it if the start and the end I don't care what other do Don't care about its other animals rape each other would you follow that what the other animals did no I'm saying I would follow that do other animals rape each other in nature do other animals rape each other in nature in behind do lions rape each other in nature do they each other's young yes do you follow what the lines do Then we some would you God admits that it's not good. Listen, I'm not being seen wrong. I'm telling you quite clearly that animals have those traits naturally within the world that we live in. They rape each other, so who gives a s***? They rape each other. Who gives a s*** about what? The animals. I'm saying they rape each other, so who gives a s*** in terms of how we should dictate our morality, how we should act? We shouldn't look to nature to dictate our morality in civilization. I believe it's a choice. Now God, I was just bringing up God because Isaiah 116, right? That's why I was bringing it up because you're religious. I don't believe in religions. I might believe in God, I might believe as a creator. I don't believe in Christianity and Judaism or the Abrahamic religions personally because I think there's something going on there that I don't agree with, right? No, I understand that. That's a personal choice. I mean, if we wanted to leverage God, you believe God is the dictator of morality? No, not never. God is the creator of morality. My argument always started away from that sort of thing. It was based on a cultural and physiological need for me which is now morphed into something which you've now described as a kind of industrial, torturous, awful kind of animal which you want to avoid. We don't have a physiological need for it. No. We have a physiological need for nutrients and I think now that God's earth is being destroyed by factory farming and the amount of suffering and killing it's causing, it's the morally right thing to do to avoid these systems. Now if we see the earth going down the s*** with animals dying in infinite suffering in factory farms we start trying to justify our consumption which has got nothing to do with anything but taste and maybe, I don't know, a misinterpretation of what you need. I'd be trying everything to get these supplements to stop supporting it because that doesn't look like anything God created. I really, really must go and listen. First of all, I appreciate your time. Secondly, you have definitely made me think and the reason was I've always thought there's a wall here between what people do and our food where animals come from and when you make me look at that very closely, yes, there is a glint of, oh, I'm a bit shaky and there's definitely a moral quandary there and it's very thought-provoking. I'm not going to be converted within a day but I really understand what you're coming for. I think we got off the wrong foot because I didn't know whether you were serious or not because I got a lot of people who are not serious and you seem serious but then when we stuck on definitions and I'm showing them and they're going, no, that's not right and yes, that's not, I think the semantics thing got me off on the wrong foot too. I think you're very eloquent in the way that you put your argument across and I think you've made very, very good points. I'm also somebody who, I don't think we've had as much practice as you but I'm decent with the conversation and I try to push back when I'm pushed out. I think we've been both guilty of that. I think maybe it's just a, maybe we both, you're not as aware of what's going on as me. No, I'm not. So I have that in the back of my mind when you're saying things and you don't have it. If you would have them all over and you've been watching videos of animals being tortured and murdered, or it's part boiled alive, you would have a lot of anger and justified anger for that and I'm kind of, I'm not very aware of that or it's at the back of my mind, I've never looked into it. So that's where, maybe I should do it. Maybe you should look into it. I think it's a fair point and I think when my food comes in it's very important. I've always been aware that it's more than that red thing that you see on the shelf and it's something that I will look into. Slaughterhouses are in closed doors, right? Now I believe that these guidelines were for people who had maybe some animals out there in their village at the back and these weren't for slaughterhouses operating in mass production in closed doors and religious individuals like to look back to the old way and think that this is happening now. I'm not actually, what I think is a good idea and I think it's a great idea is that even though people might be living in denial about how their food ends up on their plate I think this needs to be, if you put it across, the way you put it across to me to most people here right now that the food that you're eating, right now, the chicken you're having for dinner tonight this is the situation that they're going through this is the pain that they're going through look at this, see this a lot of people, not all, would probably come to your side and would actually stop eating meat. You'd be very surprised actually I've been doing this for nearly 10 years I suppose, been vegan nearly 10 years been on the street for eight some people just don't give a s*** that's not me now, I think you do care because otherwise we couldn't have a productive conversation people that don't care, I can't even get them to I mean, I think that when you said I don't care about this, I don't care about that you did say that about dogs and about gorillas I don't think you knew the gravity of what you were saying before you said it I mean, when I was saying that I was talking about, as I said I wouldn't eat a dog myself do other people have the right to eat a dog? at the time I was thinking yet they might do and that's your conversation with them my argument is the dogs should have rights for them not to do that I don't understand so, I think you do care enough for us to have a productive conversation and for us to lead through some logic and you have some... you have a moral system that I don't think you've quite thought through when it comes to animals so you need some time to jumble things around and get it consistent but that's all part of the process but I'll always be inspired by a good argument and good points you made a lot of this and there's no reason for me to say you're entirely wrong, I'm entirely right I'm in between and I know this is hypocrisy I mean, oh yes, they live lovely in a field hopping and skipping and then to my plate it's absolutely fine there's a lot of horror in between and how to spare that with a choice to eat meat I see that argument completely and it's something I will look into more when I become a vegan I think probably not to be honest with you but it's something that I will try I've tried to reduce my meat intake and things like that not for a moral basis but also because I don't like to eat so much meat anymore but you've given me the opportunity to look into it and I appreciate that and I thank you very much when you're not vegan you're supporting unjustifiable suffering on a mass scale something that's inconsistent with the values of your own religion and values of being a decent person until you are vegan you're not really doing your best in civilised society to avoid riots, violations suffering of the innocent beings mass killing something that's an abomination to not only nature but God themselves I respect that point I will just get a few points I'm just making my finishing point this is what I truly believe through what I know and no one can force you to do anything and if you do arts to God one day because you know I think when you have the privilege to know you have the duty to act and maybe it's just your conscience and you die and it's nothing forever or maybe it's your conscience in the back of your mind you think oh maybe that is wrong I'm going to tuck it away and then you face judgement I don't know that's not for me to say but we've had the conversation and I think it was productive in the end even though we got stuck at the start I appreciate you sitting down because it takes confidence to do that again even though I've been pushing back a lot because I tend to when I get pushed at vegans who are there who've got the moral compass not to want to eat animals it's something that I respect I don't disrespect it and people trying to get the message out there also it's something that I respect but I also respect people have the choice and I don't think necessarily eating meat is a wrong choice but we agree to screen that what's your name my name's Joey Joey Gideon it's been a pleasure to meet you yeah nice to meet you Gideon thanks for sitting down because it takes confidence to do that mate all the best take care it's incredibly wrong it's one of the most evil choices we make on a day to day basis it has the worst outcomes for animals you could possibly imagine all of the most horrible things I've ever seen in my life happen in animal agriculture it's an abomination on every level and we went around there with that conversation but I think it was interesting so