 Hello everyone. I am Siri Jenkins and I am a producer of directors by West Connect. For a visual description, I am sitting in a new rectangle, a woman with short dark brown and grey hair, parted to one side, wearing large dark glasses. I am also wearing a white shirt with a black sweater and a background. And has the hashtag DLWConnect. The register of West is the 20 year old all home tier organization that remains and provides an agency and civil workshop, sales, masterclasses and more for emerging and mid career directors and choreographers from all over the world. I'm going to do a quick description that we all have colleagues and care and keep going. So instead of simply just mark 2020 by growing our directors. Oh, it looks like it's improved. Is that better. I think it's working now. All right. Okay, apologies everyone. In case you didn't hear, Cindy Marie Jenkins, one of the producers of the lab and thank you Diana. Thanks everyone for your patience. So yes, instead of canceling this year, which is 2020 by growing the community with directors lab West and have been overwhelmed by your responses and thoughtful questions in our first three days. Welcome now to the fourth of eight days of conversations crafted for and by theater directors and choreographers live streamed by our partners a howl around to their website and to our directors lab West Facebook page. We can join the chat. Tell us who you are and where you're turning in tuning in from and ask questions for the Q&A following our speakers conversations. We want to give a big thank you to Ellie Stryfer for providing ASL interpretation. Ellie is centered in her screen with a black background. She wears a dark green short sleeve shirt dark glasses and has her hair pulled back into a ponytail. And now please welcome our speakers, Laura Lawson and Diana Wyon. Laura Lawson is an engineering artist with a practice that includes both traditional choreography and novel ways of extending and creating art through technology and design. A member of full radius dance since 2004 and the disabled artist collective kinetic light. She choreographs, teaches and performs in New York City Atlanta and around the world. Thank you, Laurel. Thank you, Cindy. I am a woman with pale skin and short currently slightly unkempt brownish reddish hair with pale eyes. I am wearing a blue shirt with a tone on tone floral pattern against a white background. I am brightly lit and I am sitting in my wheelchair. And let's also welcome Diana Wyon, who is a Los Angeles based theater and opera director choreographer and dramaturg, as well as a curator of contemporary performance and community organizer. She's the co-founder of plain wood productions and artistic director of arts and culture at Temple Israel of Hollywood. Diana is also a steering committee member for the director's lab West. Thank you. Thank you, Cindy Marie. Hi, everybody. I am seated in the center of my screen. I am a fair skinned woman with a short bob in brown and behind me is a very cluttered background of my living room with a piano converted into a desk, a bookshelf and abstract painting and a couch behind me. I love all the backgrounds for these. So everyone you can find full bios for all of our speakers at directors lab West calm. Now Laurel and Diana are going to be in conversation for about 30 minutes and then I'll return with some questions direct from our Facebook chat and the pre registrants. Until then I'm going to hand the reins over to you Diana. Thank you. Hi Laurel. I am so thrilled to be talking with you about this topic. And things shifted because I think I didn't even expect to be present for directors lab West when we were planning our in person lab. I was actually meant to be working on tour in, in Europe and so things have definitely shifted, but I am grateful to be here with you now and so I want to start by asking, how has the pandemic impacted you and your practice. Wow, that's a, that's kind of a big one Diana. It is it is. For one thing, as with many artists particularly dancers and choreographers. I went from pretty much being booked out for the next two to three years. I mean the schedule was actually starting to get kind of scary years in advance. It was really exciting. And I've gone from that to being in this state of suspension. It's been really interesting because this is the most time I have spent at home in several years I don't remember the last time. I was literally at home for a month without interruption. My choreographic practice is grounded in ensemble and partnering. So that is really hard to pursue right now. As an artist, I thrive on collaboration and on crossover. So I'm exploring some different ways of pursuing that. And I am also a product designer and a software architect. So, in addition to my work in community in crisis care and in organizing. I am doing a lot of projects in front of a keyboard, both artistic and administrative and other technological innovation that supports the arts and that supports our community. Thank you. Yeah, it's definitely shifted a lot of things to this box. Something that I realized I didn't add to my visual description because it isn't visible but I do feel like is very necessary for this conversation is actually recognizing what is invisible, which is my disability. I have type one diabetes. And so I'm excited because we're integrating what's visible and what's invisible. And what's been really remarkable was Laurel and I got all the registration questions and we're going to work through many of the themes and the questions that arose and since we're on this digital platform. I'm going to start here and because quite a few questions remarked on how digital platforms are more accessible to disabled patrons and disabled artists. And they asked if there was any chance that the theater community would use this time to make physical spaces more accessible and disability friendly. Can I lob that to you. All right, so we're straight into it. Yeah. We have heard a lot about access and remote platforms at this time. It is absolutely true that remote access remote presence is a vital component of accessibility for many disabled people. Something that we have really tried to pioneer in kinetic light is a digital transparency in live streaming rehearsals in whenever possible offering performance live streams for people who cannot come see us on tour. However, that is only one component. Access is not automatic. It does not happen unless you make it happen. Today, we are very happy that directors lab West understood that we needed to have an interpreter for this conversation that it needed to be captioned that these are forms of access that you have to provide just because you're on a digital platform doesn't mean, oh, we're accessible now, right. Access is about just thinking, what do people need, what do my artists need, what do my audience need. It's been honestly really heartbreaking that we have seen so much progress in certain kinds of access so quickly remote access to education is a huge example. Disabled people have been asking for that for a long time. And suddenly, only now. That doesn't happen. Not because it was so hard to do after all, but because it affected non disabled people. There are brilliant organizers, artists activists who have built their careers entirely on remote presence. One example is Alice Wong who founded the disability visibility project among a number of critical initiatives. Yeah, it can be done, but no it. It doesn't just happen magically. I wish it did. No, no it doesn't even yesterday I was on a call about a project and I have a low cited actor writer and you know he brought up the fact he can't read the chat so if we're going to go live, I want to respond to chat questions. We got to make those audible for him. So before the question about physical space. I mean, the built environment is one of the hard aspects of accessibility. And it's something that's very easy for people to focus on. There's a ramp, or there are stairs. It's not the sum total of access by any means it's just one component, but it is a component that is probably the slowest to change. There have been a number of articles including one in dance magazine. This month. It's not just accessibility, but what do artists need in theaters, we can't socially distance in the backstage. How many times have you been in addressing room with 20 people and no ventilation. Many. Right. So, I don't know what the answer. Okay, actually I do know what the answer is to that, but people who own buildings don't like it. Yes. Yeah, that's very true. So, when we were prepping for this conversation about disability and equity and how they can be creative forces on stage and off in our practices and for our communities and in our own lives. You and I talked a lot about the importance of language and the this importance is actually something that's come up multiple times over the conversations even in this series. So, okay, as somebody who was diagnosed at 20, while in college but who didn't really come to recognize my place in our community until maybe four or five years ago, I am still processing. The process of unlearning the harmful ableist language that I internalize since childhood, and since language isn't static and is always evolving and it can be utilized to empower and to oppress individuals and communities. Can you help us clarify the language around disability and its impact. Honestly, it's pretty easy. Hashtag say the word disability is not a dirty word. We can get a little more complicated. Most artists at this point prefer identity first language, which is to say I am a disabled artist. Language shifts over time 30 years ago when I was being trained as an activist, the dominant style new then was person first language which most of you have probably heard say person with a disability. There, and some people still prefer that you know you go with what the individual prefers. But there is particularly in the arts world and understanding that you cannot separate your identities from your personhood. It's a disservice, even to people who are becoming disabled, but pertinently our context and lived experience matters that is what we as storytellers uses fuel. So, you can't effectively create or understand your art in isolation from your disability or non disability, just as you hopefully would not try to separate it from your gender or your race or your cultural upbringing. It is the context and viewpoint that makes our art rich powerful and compelling. That resonates so much because I know I kept my diabetes out of the room for so long and I tried to push it out of the way and it wasn't until I kind of like said, well I'm bringing my whole self to this room that my work got stronger. And I was able to create in much healthier, more robust ways. So, with that said, what do we do when we make a mistake, when we say something, you know, using the euphemisms or. We get it and we move on. You know, it's not. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Recognize that you made a mistake. Recognize what you want to do in the future and move on. Yeah, it reminds me of yesterday with the intimacy directors, they talked about Carly brought up, what if it oops, ouch, I'm sorry and move forward. It's a good way to quickly ask it and not make it about you. Yeah, classic practice, because it's not about you. So, maybe that also brings up some of the other terminology about like special accommodations whereas like now it's just what you know, what are your comments, what accommodations do you need. Or, and it reminds me of like the difference between asking for someone's preferred pronouns and just asking for their pronouns. Yeah, all of these little things. I mean, honestly, I know where special needs came from and I, if I could go back and wipe that out. A disabled person's needs are not special. There's enshrined in education. Educating the child is not a special need. They have the same need for education for access for the ability to exist in public space for human connection as anyone we all have these needs. And I think that their special is a way of shifting the burden on to the disabled individual and saying, oh, you need more it's your fault that we're not giving this to you, rather than simply creating access, providing whatever accommodation is appropriate. Yeah. Yeah, I could rant about that for the next. Definitely, but maybe it's like a perfect time to talk about why you offered the word equity, you know, for the session title when we were kicking around accessibility, which is also another very important term in practice. Access is absolutely important. If access does not exist. If you or your organization is starting from a place where there is no access then obviously you must begin there that is the first place. But we talk about equity. And I feel this conversation has just caught on in a lot of ways. I do not care for inclusion. Because when you're talking about inclusion, that's implicitly hierarchical, who is doing the including and who is being included and what kind of relationship does that set up. There is an expectation that oh I'm doing this charitable thing that makes me feel so good. No, we talk about equity equity requires honesty. It requires an investment in sharing power. It requires sharing leadership and resources. Equity. Equity involves the ownership of stories. Who gets to tell what stories. I think that's so important, especially with the conversation around power, who holds the power. I don't know when I started this, but as a director, one day I always start the top of my process and I repeat it whenever I feel necessary, but I tell my actors and my creative teams as well and my crew that I have one rule in my rooms and everything else is fair game. And I say, you just have to follow that one rule and that is protect yourself and others. And then I explained that I mean this spiritually, physically and emotionally, and it's really amazing to watch the room shift as everyone recognizes their own agency to take care of themselves. And one another. And I now look back. And I really is that I think my original motives for this. Bringing this into my room was actually coming out of a need to really care for myself and now that I had more power in the room I was no longer an actor I was directing much much more. I could offer this, because if my blood sugar is going down or going up I got to handle it. So this one rule lets me protect myself but also, you know, let everyone else do the same. I mean, can you are there practices that you and your collaborators have adopted to create rehearsal rooms and process that can handle everyone's unique needs. Have you encountered any unexpected artistic discoveries along the way because of those. So this is where the light as an ensemble of disabled artists under disability leadership really grounds our practice. It is about really trust and professionalism. I mean what I hear when you say that is that you trust your actors to be professionals to do what they need to do and we do the same. Yes, trust the artists. We take care we show care for each other by doing that. In our case if we need to create access, then we do so. And that may look a little bit different for everybody that even can look different for me on a day to day basis. I don't know if I would say there any huge surprises in that what I have learned over and over, both working in ensemble and working as a choreographer is that when you trust the artist. Sometimes they come up with something better than what I had planned for them. Yes, I find that all the time in my work I often think about like my role as a director sometimes to like in addition to bringing some big vision and being able to hold the space and the whole but is to like get rid of hindrances for the individuals that they can do their best work. Yeah, we just make the space and get out of the way sometimes. Amazing. Yeah. So, oh, I wanted to share that at the national performance network conference back in December I took this great workshop by disabled actress Diana Elizabeth Jordan, she might be out there so hi Diana if you're out there. And her workshop like not only helped me kind of identify my privilege as an invisibly disabled director, but also introduce me to a lot of the activists who have been doing this work for decades. So what advice do you have for non disabled artists who have joined us and are asking themselves how can I build that culture of care responsibility and trust into my own practice and how can I create a safe and welcoming space for my artists, as well as my audience. Wow. This is yeah that's something that takes a lot of practice in learning to make that space learning to build community. I would say one thing is to consider what is actually necessary. What constraints. Do you really need, for example, common in dance studios is that you're not allowed to have anything but water in a studio. Yep, common to stages as well. So, yeah, that's not going to work for everybody. Trust your artist to be professional to not spill or have something that has crumbs. Everyone understands what the goal is. You know maybe that prohibition isn't actually 100% necessary. Considering your language. You are inflicting micro aggressions on people. That is a stress on your artists. You know why would you invite someone in. And you wouldn't bring someone into the process and then deliberately inflict more work or more pain on them. So that's something to think of ahead of time. Being honest, that's a really big one. If you're not prepared to do this work. Don't. If you're not at a place where you can, for example, offer interpretation. You wouldn't go out and actively advertise for deaf artists to come into your process. If your audition announcements. Just be honest. If your audition space is not wheelchair accessible, please say so. That's a lot better than having people show up and be like, well, those sure are stairs. Yeah, or even doing the work to be like, okay, well come out and I'll read for you in the parking lot. I've done that. And who is doing the work there. I hope no one here would do this, but I have certainly been in situations where I've been asked to be a part of something been cast and then had it made clear that it was also my unpaid job to figure out all my own accommodations. Not cool. I mean, there is, there is so much here and we actively invite people in to community to learn these things. You mentioned Connecticut late a few moments ago and and that work is has intersectional disability at as an aesthetic and as a culture and as an essential part of the artistry and that access is also central to to that process. So can you tell us more about your work and about how you're not only investigating and investing in what's happening on stage during the performances but you're also in looking at the reception of that live performance and we had a question come in that asked about how the work you're doing for audiences and at what point you bring them into your creative process and I feel like it's it's a good moment to mention that us sense of data actually reveals that one in five. Americans has a disability and that we are the largest minority group and make up a significant amount of current audiences and have the potential if we aren't left out to make up even more of their audiences so can you share a bit more about your work at Connecticut late. And here we get to the part where we actually offer about four days worth of workshops on exactly this. So as I mentioned kinetic light is an ensemble of disabled artists under disability leadership. We are not strictly speaking a dance company. We are on stage dancing. However, it's also multi channel production. I don't think our practices around bringing in audiences are terribly different from other evening length touring productions in that we do trials, we test out we do showings. It's all kind of very standard practice we do try for a transparency of process. And we do, of course, explicitly invite our disabled community and other disabled artists into our process and to give comment. One thing that is easy for me to point out if you're not familiar with the state of performance access for people who are blind or low vision. That practice is called audio description. And what that looks like is that you have an additional person, a trained describer, usually sitting in the booth, who is watching the performance. And they are speaking into a microphone that transmits to these audience members their description of what is happening on stage. So if you imagine the difference between watching and listening to a performance. The amount of data you're taking in visually and then compressing that down to audio description that also has to be woven in if there are audible components to the performance. Right. That is that is bare minimum that is not an artistic experience that is begrudged and after the fact. What we created, spurred by our blind friends who came to our showings and said, you know, everyone else gas, but from the description, I didn't understand why we understood that we were failing. So in partnership with our audience with fellow artists. I designed automats. If you imagine that you're in a huge room, maybe a museum gallery, and there are 30 speakers scattered around the space, they can be anywhere floor, floating in midair ceiling. Every speaker is playing something different, but it's all part of the same show. And you can navigate yourself through the space. You can make choices about what you want to listen to everything at once. You can go cuddle up to one speaker and listen to just one thing from beginning to end. That is a rich artistic experience, and that is what we create with automats, where we are creating that content and that material alongside the choreography alongside the projections, the video, the lighting design. And it is just as much a part of the world building as the dance you're watching on stage. I got to listen to some of them and I definitely encourage people out there to head to their website and and check out the recording that's on SoundCloud on there because it did it gave me those moments of like I you know my mind was dancing as I encountered it. I loved it. Ah, Cindy Marie. That seems like a good time to start to transition to our questions and more to talk about with automats which sounds amazing. We got so many questions from the registrants, and it was hard to narrow it down but we have a few to jump off. One of them was people asked if there's any insight you can give into off working with invisible disabilities, or creatives that prefer not to share about their disability for fear that it could impact their work experiences. Diana I know you talked a little of your experience there but definitely. I mean as somebody who got diagnosed at 20 right as they were about to head into the profession. I actually spent the first at least eight years completely hiding, hiding it. And so, and what that created was usually in a cast. At that point so in a cast I would tell one person. So if something needed to happen, one person new. But that's not really useful and I will say that thing of protect yourself and others and asking people for their, if their accommodation needs are being met at the top of your practice. And I think that's why I'm asking them to answer that question in real time or to pull you aside later has been really important because there are times where all of a sudden to the whole room they're like, Oh yeah, I have really bad asthma so that really rigorous amazing viewpoints exercise is like, if you see me sit down that's why. I think it also enables them to pull me aside. I also think like kind of like disability is seen as a bad word, as we talked about earlier like diabetes is one of those terms, and the origins of this disease or systemic. I have to bust through that and it's one of the reasons why like I even built an entire show after not acting anymore to really talk about that but that's a whole other conversation but I feel like there's also. There's a lot of us out there in positions of power who are invisibly disabled or chronically ill that get it. And I feel like you don't, you know it's up to you whether you're going to just what you're going to disclose, but to help the rest of the community and recognize that you can be part of kind of dismantling the shame and the fear because invisible disabilities doesn't mean that you can't do the work and be great at it so. Great. And one question that came in just came in on the Facebook live is, how do you connect with other disabled artists. Michaela says that she said, you know what she approached folks and coffee shops doctors offices shops and asked are you interested in writing and performing. That is a good question. And I think there is a really important distinction between people already in the field and working at a professional level and people working in other fields who might be interested in getting involved. Right is actively engaged in lifting up and offering further training and opportunities to disabled artists who are already at least emerging in their fields and the way we do it is largely through networks. We ask, and we ask, and we ask, and we are always looking. In fact, we have some major information and organizing projects that will hopefully be able to announce very soon in that regard. However, not everyone wants to disclose, not everyone identifies, you know, it is not always straightforward. And there are a lot of ways. But if you're looking for people, you know, go to where people are. That's usually a good place to start meet them where they are. That reminds me really quick about arts marketing where people would say well we have an ASL interpreter for this one production, and I'd have to remind them that that doesn't discount all the work you need to do leading up to it to really to, you know, get people interested. Another question we had, I think from pre registration is that how do you see creative practices and dance and education intersecting in regards to disability, and how to disrupt the tropes that keep surrounding the work of disabled artists. So, I mean I think those are really two big and separate questions, and I want to go for the second one first disability tropes are pretty terrible in theater in film. How often do you know someone is the villain, because they're disabled. Another common trope is inspiration porn. Me Before You was a great example of that. We are not objects of pity. My life does not suck. I have no desire to die. And my life is not inherently less valuable because of my disability. The story comes down to how I talked about who owns the story, who gets to tell the story. Representation matters, not just in front of the camera but behind the camera in design in technical work in the writers room directors and producers. You are a non disabled director or writer who really has a burning need to tell a disability story. I mean first I would really sit with that and understand what your motivations are around that. And then you need to find someone to work with you hire a consultant. There are plenty of disabled writers, script doctors, fantastic actors and directors out there who may be happy to work with you. But yeah, representation is absolutely critical and so is authenticity. As Diana said, 20% of the population and in all honesty, post pandemic, the number is going to be much, much higher. The disability community is bracing for a huge number of people who will have lifelong disabilities caused by this illness. So, yeah, we are not the other we are you. But it also reminds me that I just found out about a whole host of dramaturgs, disabled dramaturgs that are doing incredible work. So, you know, playwrights and directors grab them and use them and pay them and it also reminds me of how satisfying it was. There's a show on a show called The Lesson in Swimming with a three-time stroke survivor who is low-sighted and it's been remarkable. We laugh about the fact that, you know, two invisibly disabled artists walk into a theater and it's really fun to see, to hear about his experiences and talk about how they relate to my experiences. I think it's one of the most unique stories that got us to this place together but there are things that he talks about that I'm like, I can totally relate to that and I feel like if he was in the hands of a non-disabled director, the conversation is very different. But like I instantaneously knew I needed loud shoes because he can't really see very well so my loud shoes tell him where I am approaching from, you know, and that kind of stuff is exciting to me. A pretty dense question that we tried to condense down a little bit. Can you describe a little about what it's like to create specifically for disabled audiences versus non-disabled versus deliberately mixed disabled and non-disabled. What do you create specifically with only disabled collaborators versus with only non-disabled versus an intentionally integrated group and how is the experience different when collaborating with disabled people who have different kinds of disabilities than you do? Who? That could be a seminar in and of itself. Cindy Marie, how long do I have? We could go a little further than more than two minutes. Let me see if I can come up with a 90 second version. What I really want to say in response to that, I don't know that I am ever creating only for one kind of audience. I can say that I am considering who I am centering. And if you look at kinetic lights descent, if you were a wheelchair user, there are moments in there that are a love letter to you and that no one else will ever see. I think it's possible to create those kind of moments and to show that kind of care and love for your audience. And for all of your audiences. We're not necessarily building things solely for disabled audiences. We're just including and centering people who are traditionally excluded from theater, from dance, from live performance, both by the built environment. The fact that, oh, there's two seats for people in wheelchairs. One on either side. So the width of the auditorium apart and they're all the way at the back to not having interpretation, not having description, other lacks of access. I'm working with collaborators. And I think this is something that is true for any creator from a marginalized identity, more so for multiple marginalized intersectional artists. I have a certain freedom and a certain ease when everyone understands when you are not negotiating. Okay, I have these access needs that no one else in the room has. Or I have to put on this performance for this very specific kind of professionalism. And disability is incredibly creative. We come up with new ways to work. We come up with new kinds of work. When we're working across disability, even more so, it's harder, but it can be incredibly rewarding. I think that's kind of the high points there. Diana, is there anything in that question you want to respond to? Well, I think you tackled so much of it and the thing that I just want to double down on is like we've had to adapt. Under the under our given circumstances, there are adaptations and creative ways that we've found to work. You know, I used to in my costumes like hide sugar in random pockets or in my bra during a performance, but then, you know, there's also the ability to then create something with costume designers to actually build a place for those kinds of things into your into your work. So I feel like there's something incredibly creative, inherently creative. And that could really empower a lot of rooms and expand the ways that we are working for the better. It seems like a great place to wrap this up. I think we could probably go on for quite a while. And there are some more questions coming in if we have time to jump into the Facebook chat after then we'll try to answer everybody's questions. But in closing, we're going to ask that one question we're asking everyone across the board. Would you briefly share something that you've learned or discovered during this quarantine period that you plan to incorporate into your practice as an artist. Diana, do you want to start. I lobbed this one yesterday now I'm receiving it. I think it's really exposed for me. Our need to control, like our jump to try and control things, especially as a theater director, you know, I want the lighting and everything to be as I've imagined it in my head or created with my team and like where we are now has like blown that and you kind of have to run with it and you have to adapt. And so I guess I'm okay like what I'm looking forward to taking with me is recognizing that the systems that are broken, like can come apart and we can rebuild something better together and find a new reimagine the ways that we are working to unveil new ways of working that really offer opportunities for all of us to take care of ourselves in each other here. Laurel, could you agree. I think possibly the most. The biggest component that I'm taking out of this is really exploring all of the capacities. How can I create art without being in physical proximity with people. How can I create it without being on stage without even having a stage. So really exploring what is possible what is what is really innovative. Yeah. And I know there are a ton of questions that we are not going to get to. And as I said, I mean, we could keep going on this. There's so much more. Yeah, I will say I am pretty available on Instagram if people have specific questions that they want to reach out about at Worlds of Laurel. My beloved colleague and the artistic lead of kinetic light Alice Shepard is also on Instagram at wheelchair dancer. And if you are looking for disabled artists. Get in touch with us because we are. We're collecting finders. Yeah, yeah. If you are a disabled artist or designer or technician or director also get in touch with us. We want you on board. Yes. Yeah, and I'm more than happy as well to field anything like it's out there. I think this is so important and I can't thank you enough Laurel for joining us. Thank you Diana. And thank you again everybody you're both amazing. It's been it's always such a pleasure to talk to you and my, I always have so many things to look up afterwards and think about. And thank you so much to our partners at howl round. And thank you to the director who is our ASL interpreter. We adore you. We also very much the directors lab West would like to acknowledge our long standing partners at the stage directors and choreographer society, the Pasadena playhouse and Boston court Pasadena. We are usually inundating your spaces right now and we look forward to reuniting next year. And then we'll be archived and available with closed captions on both howl round.com and directors lab West calm. And you'll be able to watch it on our Facebook page. We hope we hope you'll join us again tomorrow for what is this day five that will be day five of eight. Thank you so much for your participation featuring global perspectives from directors lab West international alumni, Daniela, addiencia, Jana for Makona and Makiko Shibuya, and it's going to be moderated by avavit Shakad. Thank you both, Laurel. Thank you so much Diana. Thank you, we hope that this conversation sparks even more discussion and collaboration. Thank you everyone.