 Thanks for joining us. Today we have with us retired Judge Sandra Sims and scholar Radine Cahio-Lalo and noted criminal defense attorney and husband of one of our most gifted musical artists, Raya Teahal, Bill Harrison. Sandra, Radine, Bill, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you. These are strange times. Yes, they are indeed. So let me start with the question that may be central one for all of us right now. How do you get grounded and centered in these times with the barrage of what's coming down on us? That's a good one because I certainly, I've been working at it because it's it's at a place where you kind of wake up each day and it's like oh my god what next and and how do I deal with that? To be honest I've been doing a lot of meditating and just kind of sitting quietly stealing myself and and kind of that's one way for me is sort of grounding in meditation. It doesn't take away all the issues but it sure helps you to focus and see things a little differently and that's one way method. I don't know. I found it just kind of getting out and walking, just getting out, getting some air. I take the dog out more often than I used to think oh I don't need to walk but now it's like it's a time of just kind of peace and collecting just getting some air. That's one thing. It's a really good insight. A friend of mine who was a radiation oncologist for many years had queens and dealt with some pretty tragic and difficult cases and tried to help people through that and he formed and led meditation groups for a long time. I asked him if you were going to explain to somebody in plain language of any age, older, young, what's meditation? He said you know maybe it's just trying to figure out what you want to hold on to and what you want to let go of and the breathing and the peace and the calm help you do that but that's your transcendence. That's how you elevate the spirit to where it needs to go. How do you do that in these times? Rene, what works for you? I think for me it you know I agree with Sandra. I think being still in the midst of chaos is really key for me and it's hard to do. I think in these times where there's so much information and of course we want to know what's going on and I do and sometimes that just drops me in this kind of cycle of you know not being able to step out of it so a lot of times it's a matter of just shutting down the computer and you know not being on social media but for me I find my solace in the ocean you know I can go in the ocean and stay there literally for hours and just something about the environment and the beauty of it tends to center me and then also prayer a lot of prayer. Bill what works for you? You know similarly I just fall back on my religion you know I understand that that God is there that everything is his will and we have been connected with our Christian family. We do a lot of Bible study together we have a one evening a week separately my wife and I do a Bible study together and clearly that helps us to understand to rely on us and support on someone who's not here someone who controls everything that's here and so that's basically where we go when we need you know some kind of reassurance in this difficult time and you know my wife is unplugged from this from social media she's taken herself off of you know Facebook's and the other types of social media that unplugging for her is very important. So that's where we get our solace from. And these have to be especially hard times for someone like Raiatea in the music industry which is completely shut down. Music entertainment are generally. Yeah you know it is in some respects but but she she's sort of changed her focus in life and she's involved with the Lilio Kalani trust and working with them she's gone back to school and this this virtual learning may be a bit of a test for her but she's doing well in that respect so she's working on finishing up her you know degree and working towards the children and the trust so she's got to focus in that regard and then she's also working on the musical side the cultural side as well in the background and not so much performing because you can't perform unless virtually these days but more or less maybe writing and putting the other programs that she suspects will help the kids in the future go on a path that she's been on so she's very busy. She's busy and I am. That's good. I think the arts are probably another way in which we can address how we get through this. I know for me I'm not a a singer or a writer of music but I certainly enjoy it and I find a lot of solace you know in in in music and I can see where those that have that skill or have that ability can actually more easily adapt to these times because some of the best music when we think about it you know kind of comes out of these difficult times because you know artists have that ability to tap into you know social conscious and tap into society and tap and feel things and express in a way that you know the rest of us can't always do and that is all to me that's that's always a big plus is to you know get some good music and sit back and calm my mind steal the mind take all all this stuff and and then you know get ready to come back and do it again because we got to keep we got to keep going we got to keep pushing forward and the way to do that is to kind of take care of yourself as well first so before you get out I know my daughter is doing a lot of the what we call a self-care programs she's been consulting with a lot of agencies including Lillio Kalani Trust I think doing things with regard to self-care and so she's she's a big one like mom what are you doing to take care of yourself leave me alone no just kidding but no but you know she's that's that's an important thing particularly for those of of us and particularly you guys that are kind of on the front lines of having to deal with all the stressful issues and in our world people on the on the medical in on the front lines and certainly in the legal and political communities and well and so it's you got to take care of yourself first before you can change the world sure yeah I think that brings up a really important point which is I've been in a couple of presentations recently on what's called vicarious trauma the indirect impact of it which we're all experiencing it maybe that we're close to someone who experiences a severe health crisis or loses job work income all those things impact that they can't control on their life that affects everybody around them kids trying to adapt to how do you learn in this session so I was watching a teacher last night talking about trying to rebuild a different kind of collaborative learning among students is almost starting over from square one yeah yeah I mean there's definitely a heightened sense of anxiety that's global and we're all affecting each other with the way that we are responding to the issues and you know I think about you know we mentioned our leaders and I look at the leaders now and a lot of times I look at this Hawaii Senate and I think how are they doing this they seem like they're running on fumes and how can you possibly lead in a healthy way if you're running on empty yeah you know and we've seen that three of the leading major center of the storm departmental heads have left recently it's it's just nobody's prepared for this nobody's able to manage or control it and it's easy to sit back and be really critical of people in leadership positions whether it's the governor or the director of Department of Health or whoever a DOE whoever but I don't see people stepping up to volunteer to say we'll share that load with you we'll take on some of that responsibility I also think you know I've been thinking about this and I you know that saying if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything and and I really have been thinking a lot about how that does tie into leadership and I think part of not taking care of ourselves either as citizens or as leaders is that inability to just anchor yourself and take a stand on something amidst all the voices I mean I think the decisions that are being made are probably because there's too many voices that are being listened to you know and I just feel like leaders do need to take us down and that is part of taking care of themselves and the people that they lead yeah and that's a really good point because those voices right now are not reassuring they're loud and they're destructive they're threatening they're intimidating they're fear generating yes so what what do you hold on to what anchors you in ways that help get through that storm you know I I actually am in line with Bill it's it's my faith my faith in Christ it's you know knowing that where my hope lies ultimately and and yet still understanding that I have a duty to act every day in ways that will make contributions that are hopefully better for the world but my anchor really is in my faith you know for whatever reason I can be in complete turmoil but I go there and I have a piece a piece that kind of disables all the anxiety inside of me you know I think that's a really good focal point rating because all four of us are in service professions occupations applications our value is value to other people yeah and I'm sure that's true in our personal lives as well so how do you make yourself a value to others in these times you know when you're both we're talking about you know your faith and that was kind of where I was coming from too when I talk about the temptation but what is key I think for each of us all of us I think because I've known you all enough is this there's a sin there's still a centering in each of us here is what we what I would call a moral compass that just simply says there's some things that you just you just do you just live because that's who you are it's just it's just how you are defined and so it is almost it's it's difficult not you could neither of you could be in a position where you would not have compassion for someone else that would not be any of you in any situation or anything that you believe strongly about that would you would not stand up for I don't think either either of you would ever be in a position where you'd kind of shrink away from that and I think one of the things that maybe that's why we're in the fields that win because those are fields that require you to stand up these are not you know these are not occupations that say I think I'll just wait and see what the wind you know how the wind blows you know you come in with a stand you come in with a position you come in with a sense of you know a sense of direction I was with my study group my church study group the other weekend one of the things that came out that Marty mentioned was in the darkest room you bring the light and I kept thinking on that it's like yeah you in the darkest I mean even whether the dark room is your own personal trouble or treasure that you you go to that faith like you said right then you go to that there there is still that I think that must be within each of you you have it there even though I mean you're not you know standing on the you know street corners or and standing in front of mb churches waiting holding a bible upside down but you are all right but you are you're living your truths and that is your that is your light and so it's just kind of how it's just kind of who you are and I think that segues into the times that we're in now we're two months in change away from what I think everybody would concede are some of the most important leadership choices in our lifetimes and in my case that's 74 years worth so that's a bunch that probably your description fits into it really well sunder because we've got one side saying the choices between dark and light we've got the other side saying the choices between law and order or chaos and violence how do you see the choice that faces us the leadership choices that face us reading uh you know I for me it's a no-brainer I mean I I that I was thinking about it this morning there were certain uh democratic candidates that I would have loved to been able to vote for and I'm not gonna diss the ones who are running right now but I there's for me there's no choice the choice is democracy the choice it's and the thing with them I think um Trump is it's not just what he's saying but it's what he's doing so you know he is trying to say the right things once in a great while and even that it you know I I just cannot understand how people who support him don't see that um but I think I guess for me this election is it's about holding on to hope even when it seems like it's very dim and it seems scary like with the postal service and all of that and so you know a lot of a lot of times I'm I'm praying and I'm advocating for you know get your votes out and do what you can as a as a citizen you know we need we need people to we need access and we need those of those people who don't have access need to be supported Bill how do you see the choices we're looking at well obviously these are very important choices as you said and um it just so happens that I'm this is my chapter of reading in the Bible is Ezekiel Ezekiel talks about leaders and what we where we have to look to in leaders and what leaders are going to be held accountable for when they lead their flock okay so you know in the old days as a democrat I would just vote the party party lines I'm I would not so much be concerned about a person's um particular position on things I would assume that the democrats were a certain way to republics were a certain way I didn't spend a lot of time delving into what really they were like in and so but but now that's a whole different situation with me I need to know where they come from and I need to believe where they're coming from is the truth too many of our leaders are really concerned about the money aspect um protecting themselves protecting others like them um and that's you know that that's obviously concerning for me as a leader your whole job being there is to basically protect preserve um take care of your constituents not be concerned about your friends not be concerned about your pocket and that's really heightened in this election so clearly I'm looking at the person that's going to be there and number one is going to follow a constitution that it was established by our country many many years ago courts of upholding right I want to know that that person is going to follow the constitution that person is going to be concerned about us individually um how his constituents how this nation is is going in terms of um equality in terms of um financially in terms of health care we need someone who's going to be a leader a real leader in those areas and so that's that's what I'm looking at and it's simple for me because as you as you know the track record establishes where this person's been this person's going to be in the future so clearly for me it's a no-brainer that I'm going to pick those individuals that obviously are concerned about me as a person concerned about me in terms of you know my friends my family my community and what we can anticipate and expect to be happening in my community and be happening to us so it's a no-brainer for me Sandra what jumps out at you about the choices that we're facing how do you see it is for me it is it is it's the leadership yes but it's also um concern for the rule of law that's a biggie for me it's just if we don't have that and we don't have first off an understanding of the underpinnings of our constitutional system which you got to have that first you got to understand it and know it and and live it and advocate for it and when it is violated you have to be the one to speak up for because you're the one that's holding these institutions the responsible person for these institutions and so that to me I think the thing that gets me more is the the disregard for the rule of law and maybe it's just not even a disregard it's just an ignorance of the rule of law I hope that maybe that's even better to be ignorant of it than to say you're just going to know it and just toss it to the side I'm not sure which is worse um but that to me is is very troubling because it it stretches into everything else it goes you know understanding it and acknowledging and protecting the rule of law goes into issues with regard to equality and and racial justice and discrimination and you know voting rights and access and concern for communities and concern for people and concern for educating our children and concern for um the environment all of that is connected to understanding and and and enforcing the rule of law and that to me is kind of where we are and it's just something that I that I feel very strong about that and that's kind of the determining factor for me so this seems to be the first campaign in history where one of the parties has made a central element of its platform what they're calling empathy but not just empathy but the courage and conviction to stand up for it to assert it to protect those who are deserving of the empathy what role does that have now for you in what we're looking at I think it's critical because our society have we have so many needs and we have so many things that are affecting people in in in such a way that they can't they can't they're not able to live the lives that we we all expect to do there's there's when you look at things like healthcare and certainly with COVID I mean it's just torn our families and communities apart and if you can't empathize with that and if you can't see that first as being the thing that we've got to look at and care about there are people who are just hurting on all kinds of levels and if you can't feel that if you can't if you can't speak to that if you can't you know see a person in need and need to just understand that what are you what are you so is there a connection between empathy and equality and where we need to go well I think absolutely absolutely there's a connection clearly to empathize with someone is very simple is that is basically as the bible says love your neighbor okay just as you would love yourself so you know to empathize you put yourself in the position of the other person and so you put yourself on an equal plane with the other person when you empathize with that person so there's clearly a sense of equality and a sense of justice when you talk about empathy so the one end and the other go hand in hand clearly when we talk about them and so the the individual leaders who are going to really walk the the walk and and walk the talk who basically say look I empathize with you folks um those are the people that we need to put put into leadership it's clear to me you know I I think there's more rage than there is engagement today and I I suspect that empathy would be a way to put a pause in between the choice between engaging with someone or raging against them and um it definitely is tied to equality I mean if I'm so self-centered to the point of narcissism I can't see anyone else but myself and I put myself up on a pedestal that you know doesn't allow me to really care about anybody and I find it interesting that empathy and a moral compass and the rule of law are essential to our essential focal point is presidential campaign and I think we need to learn that the rule of law and a moral compass the two can exist for too long it's been divisive you know yeah and maybe there's an image that somehow connects the empathy and the equality I'm thinking of Portland where when the wall of moms came out and then after that the wall of vets came out yes those are people that were out there in an extremely diverse group and now that we come into about our last minute of the show any last thoughts on what's most important about seeing and making our choices from here on out Sandra I think we do need to begin from that place of empathy and understanding and connecting with the people that you know that we are in contact with and the people that we're responsible for that has to that has to be critical because from that everything else flows as we've just talked about okay in our last minute ready last thoughts I would just say that I think it's really important regardless of you know what our personal situations are to also include the bigger picture and the long term I think too often we think short term microwave you know we got to think about this in the long term and what it's going to look like for the next generation yeah yeah and build your defense attorney who do we most need to defend we need to defend those people who can't defend themselves is really what we need to defend and I agree with both Sandra and Ray Dean as to what we need to do and importantly for everyone out there we have a democracy and what's the thing that we have to do right now and make sure we do is vote we need to get out there and vote make your choices known thank you all we've done another deep dive into things that we might not have anticipated in the beginning but things that we really care about and we hope that all of you care about as we see and make choices for humanity coming up in a couple of months thank you all thank you thank you