 I'm going to ask you to describe or define what mental health is. So we always talk about the problems, but what is the positive? What as a therapist are you trying to achieve in somebody's psychology? Good question. Yeah, so insofar as it's defined within the field, I guess I'll give you my take on it. Also, we can talk about what the field thinks because I think that's interesting. Yeah, well, briefly the field, it's a bit of a mix because it's not that consistently defined, but I'll give my take on it. So I would say in terms of what I optimize for in therapy, what I'm trying to promote that at the most general level, a person who is confidently and unconflictedly pursuing ends in their lives that bring them joy, who has fulfilling personal relationships, who has who's active in just at the most basic level, who is engaged in activity that they're satisfied with or that sometimes is really frustrating or difficult, but that they're able to be resilient in the face of challenges and to take perspective on failures and setbacks and that they're able to be vulnerable and to take risks and that they're able to make their own decisions, but also are able to incorporate the input and insight of other people in their lives that they care about and value their judgment. So someone who is balanced on a bunch of those different fronts and fundamentally feels like they're on a sure footing in life such that they're able to take risks and sometimes deal with uncertainty. Yeah, so it sounds like the keys there, kind of the beginning, you said confident and non-conflicted. So... At a fundamental level, which doesn't mean that they don't deal with conflict all the time. They're not conflicted internally in a sense, so they're not conflicted metaphysically. I mean, they're not conflicted in their nature. They deal with conflict. Yeah, they're able to deal with conflict. I would say they're not meta-conflicted. They're not stuck at the level of not being able to trust their own judgment and or not being able to trust the world enough to try things out and learn and try again. So that they fundamentally have this coherent whether implicit or explicit worldview that's operative in them that gives them a green light to move forward and also allows them to get feedback from the world and then to reiterate and take that feedback into account. So it sounds a lot like self-esteem and would you say that a healthy psychology is the psychology of high self-esteem? So I think that's a huge part of it and there's a lot of overlap between the things I've been saying and what I think we both mean by self-esteem. I would say that's one axis or one dimension of a whole and it's an inseparable whole because all the pieces reinforce each other and depend on each other. But if you think about self-esteem as this fundamental implicit conviction that you're worthy and you're capable, that goes hand in hand with the fundamental implicit conviction that the world is such that you can function in it, that the world isn't going to be hostile to your efforts and your values and that people who are such an important part of the world to any of us who are flourishing humans are trying to be, you know, that people are a certain way such that they're not fundamentally, malevolently powerful over us, such that they're a source of value rather than fundamentally a source of threat. So there are, you know, multiple dimensions of belief there that all go together and reinforce each other. It's kind of having a positive attitude towards oneself and a positive attitude towards reality, towards the other people as part of that reality. Yeah, and those all go hand in hand and cause and have reciprocal causal relationships. If you think that you can't act in the world, then it's a hostile world for your purposes, right? But if everything you do is met with scorn and derision and abuse, you know, who do you hate yourself for the world and take your pick and some people pick one and some people pick the other. But either way, it's hard to move forward.