 about what we've learned 10 years on because I said it's impact still being felt with me Stephen Jones who's the chief executive of UK finance and also with me from boat who's from positive money morning to both and Stephen let me start with you because I touched on it with Justin there about you know what have we learned 10 years on could all of this happen again could it I think the reforms that have been enacted over the last 10 years are very very substantial in terms of making sure that banks are much much stronger they are much more resilient to financial shock and and really redesigning the way we think about conduct in terms of the responsibilities of individual bankers and what they are required to do and and how they are allowed to sell to customers. My concern is that we've spent 10 years building a much much safer system in the United Kingdom for the things that went wrong 10 years ago and I think it's very important that we don't just look in the rear view mirror we need to look forward to the new risks that emerge and I think the new risks that are emerging that we all need to be cognizant of not just in banking really relate to cyber data the new world of economic crime and I certainly our focus now is very much helping the system to be safer more transparent and more resilient in this new data IT driven world. I'm fine you're listening to that Stephen says it's safer it's more resilient the lessons have been learned you don't agree no I don't think so I think we've got to remember 10 years ago banks here were bailed out to the tune of 130 billion pounds and what we've seen since then is you know the same system basically and we've seen a failure to properly reform banking so that it serves the rest of the economy not just itself it puts you know global financial markets first the rest of the economy second and rather than reforming we saw austerity we saw huge public sector cuts which is still going on and we've calculated the average household lost out by 23 000 pounds since the crash and we've seen you know bankers bonuses continued and today we're launching a calculator actually so calculator so your viewers at home can calculate how much they've lost out since the crisis what I am owed yeah and you're right I mean there's so many elements of and how it's impacted our life day to day have we learned any lessons from it and crucially could that happen again well with me two people who can probably explain a little bit more uh Fran Boit is whether she's from the campaign group Positive Money uh and Stephen Jones the chief executive of UK Finance morning to you both um Fran maybe let me start with you in terms of how this works because 10 years on a decade on some would say we've still not learned the lessons this could quite happen again quite easily absolutely you know 10 years on we've seen the failure to reform the banking system resulting in austerity public sector cuts and people's wages have stagnated and declined we've brought out a calculator today where people can find out how much they're owed from the financial crash and they can write to Philip Hammond so the average household is 23 000 pounds worse off so we're going to be in the city on Saturday which is the exact anniversary of the layman brothers collapse saying that actually 10 years enough is enough we actually need proper reform now and we're going to be calling for a whole series of of regulations from properly ending too big to fail to a financial transaction tax to looking at how we need to stop the the levels of private debt which again result from the the banking system so not enough has has happened and we've got a lot more work to do um Stephen let's talk about that concept of too big to fail that idea that our biggest financial institutions were simply too big too important to let collapse that is part of the failure even all of this isn't it but if a business isn't working it should be allowed to collapse absolutely and I think a lot of the last 10 years has been designed to ensure that reforms are put in place such that no bank is too big to fail first of all you want to get their banks into the position where they are extremely unlikely to fail and so there are four or five times as much capital held by banks relative to the loans that they grant much more cash held on their balance sheets secondly you want to make sure that the senior managers of banks are much more personally and individually accountable that's the purpose of the senior managers regime which now has criminal sanctions attached to the extent that managers act in a criminal way in terms of managing the companies and thirdly all banks now have to have what are called living wills or they have to have essentially pre-planned what would happen so that they can be wound down in an orderly way in a manner that the regulators will be able to take that action if that proves to be necessary and Fran I mean when you hear that and the economy not just the banking system has been on the life support machine we know that interest rates have been at record lows we've seen that there's been emergency money pumped into the financial system all of that seemingly has failed to make much difference yeah I mean we still have a broken economic system which very much is you know the banking system the huge financial sector we have in the in the city of London is a big part of that and although we've seen regulation it's very much been in in terms of okay how do we make a bank fail more easily rather than how do we make the banking system actually work for the economy you know what we should have learned in 2008 is that we can't have this oversized financial sector serving the global financial markets and making the rich richer at the same time as it not undermining the rest of the economy and you know we've done a recent polling that shows over two-thirds of the UK public think that banks don't work in the interests of society and that's the case you know since the crash we hope that banks would start lending to the productive economy they don't we still see around 10 percent of lending the vast majority goes into the finance sector and property markets that doesn't work for most people and most businesses in this country and that has to change well let's talk about all of that impact and what it's had on us since then with me two people who know a bit about it sarah is a personal finance expert and Fran is from the campaign group positive money morning to both i'm sarah i mean we're from just in look you know lessons have been looked but we still feel the effects don't we are we're feeling it in our pockets yes absolutely i mean particularly for one of the things is for savers who have had pretty much a lot of decade so what happened immediately after the crash was that interest rates went from five percent to 0.5 percent which just destroyed savings rates so it meant that if you had 10 000 pounds saved in an average account before the before the crash then that would be worth about 8 670 pounds today so that's fallen in in in its real value so it's really been a difficult time for savers for borrowers obviously it's become cheaper to borrow but that means that we are loading up on borrowing so that you find that we're not actually borrowing more than we were when the crisis hit so it's i think people are a lot more vulnerable and the savings ratios dropped so this is dropped a record low of 4.1 percent so we're sitting on less money than we were but borrowing up to the hill so it does put people in a vulnerable position if something was to go wrong again yeah and speaking of that vulnerable position fran i mean you know we're told constantly that there's more regulation in place of things have changed that you know we won't make the same mistakes but sometimes you look around and a lot of the familiar things the hallmarks of the first crash are back absolutely we haven't significantly changed the system you know 10 years ago the banks crashed the economy and as a result ordinary people have paid the price through political decisions so political choice to do austerity and massive cuts to public services you know unless we actually say let's make banks work for society we're going to sleepwalk into another crisis the economy isn't working for most people and we need a serious conversation about how to change things so positive money is part of a bigger campaign that's going to be campaigning in the city of london this saturday to mark 10 years on and say enough's enough yeah friend sarah thanks very much for that