 everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me as always, the own monster to my god, certainly. What's up Tom? Hello friends. So how you doing today, buddy? Yeah, I'm doing okay. All right. We're going to be talking about all the gods of and near gods of AOS tonight. We're going to be giving them a little rating as to whether or not they're worth their power and so on and so forth. We'll talk about a little bit of them in the game, where that's appropriate, where they have in-game stats, or whether or not we think they should be if they're not, or what we think they might look like if we think we'll eventually get them. So that kind of stuff, that's what we're going to get into tonight. But first, of course, we've got some news. What's up, man? That's your part. So we have a rumor engine engines. They're all over here. Look at them all. Look at all of those rumor engines. Other side, Tom. Other side. Actually, yeah. There you go. Now you got it. Now you got it. Sorry. Yeah. What can I say? Absolutely. There's a lot of them. One of them is a thing we've already seen. I don't know what original numbers they were, but this one down in the corner is just the same thing we've already seen of the Slanesh Twin Soul. So that's cool. Fine. 16 is the Slanesh Palinquin that we're going to get. I don't know. They're not in order, number order. You mean this thing though, right? Oh, yeah. The one next to 15. Yeah, that's 16 right there. You see how it's not the 16th yet, Tom? Do you know how an air vent calendar works? I mean, whatever. See, it's the age correspond to a day in the month of December, you see, as we all, we open little doors and find a surprise. That's how this works. Yeah, I know. Okay. But yes, it's been a long time since I had my own air vent calendar. I understand. Yeah, I completely agree. This one down here is 100% like the yet to be revealed Slanesh Palinquin, Palinquin centerpiece model, big Dias, Golden Throne, Xerxes thing, whatever it is. That thing that was in the background, right? Yeah. So yeah, 100% that's what it is. It's so obviously that. The one next to the 22 is from the Seraphon Warband. Okay. This thing right here. Well, it has a little metal ring in its mouth. Yep. Yep. So I don't know what that is. But okay, I don't know. More boots. Interesting little sticks. We've got some interesting sticks. Doesn't it feel like this thing and this thing belong to the same model? For some reason? Yeah, maybe. These two just feel very similar. I don't know why. Can you explain it? Yeah, I mean, as always with this kind of a thing where they're just like hitting us with the deluge, you know, we will have had roughly seven months worth of uninspoiled rumor engines. So that's about 28 of them. Yes, I didn't go through and actually totaled them out. But we've had let's call it about 30. Okay. That we have no idea what they are. And after this month, we'll basically double that number. So we will have basically something like 50 rumor engines that we don't know exactly what they are. I mean, again, I imagine a couple more of these will just be other slanesh things that we'll find out pretty quick. But that's quite a lot. It's quite a lot. How backed up are they because of COVID is the question? It's worse than them eating a pound of cheese. They are way backed up. I tend to agree. There's just so much stuff we haven't seen. So yeah, who knows? I'm excited for whatever the heck all these things are. So great, great, great stuff. I like little models and weird sticks and cool boots. So I just like new models better. Yeah. Well, obviously, obviously. But you know, that's not going to we're not getting any more of that this year, Tom. You got to put that away. It's December now. That's all right. Come January, we will return as they get us again. Beautiful slanesh models. Yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. So, there you go. That's that. Okay, cool. Neat. That leads us to the next news item, which I think we all know what it is. It's what we all came here to talk about. Okay, talk about slaneshments. That's right. Boom. So, and further proof of just how screwed up their release schedule is the agents of chaos and so on and so forth book, you know, went on pre-order in other places in the world. And in the US, I don't think we get it on pre-order until this Saturday. But the point is the new tomes. So you got the each of the new war cry tomes one for each grand alliance. We talked about those a little bit last week, and then the tone of champions. What we, and so we saw the speaker, they gave us the full view of that model. That was the one in the background doing the Captain Morgan that we had called out in the slanesh reveal video. We found that one originally. And they revealed the whole model because they said, Hey, it's going to be in this in upcoming agents of chaos. And then we also learned that of course, all the rest are going to be in there too, because my feeling is this army was supposed to be out now. Like war was always supposed to release here, right? Because the books are probably on a different shipping schedule than the models, given where they're produced, right? Yep. And so they basically they had their hand forced when people started sharing the images from the agents of chaos book of the new stuff. And we saw that not only we had called the archer unit, I just want to shout out Tom here, because this was all Tom in that original video. I didn't see anybody else talking about the archer. But when Tom and I were looking over the photos, he's like, no, look in the far right corner. He's doing some Blade Runner enhance stuff. And there's this one little recurve thing in the corner like a hand over it. And Tom was like archer unit. There it is. And sure enough, what I didn't what I didn't see coming is that one of the archery units are going to be on seekers. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I that's what I that's what I did not call sure that we wouldn't also get mounted archers. Yes. Right. Right. Right. So yes, we've got the the bliss bar of archers, the foot archers, we got the bliss bar of seekers, which is the same thing, but on licky tongue mounts, you've got the slick blade seekers, which are a new melee unit, melee cav unit, I guess what we'd say. And then the slangorefina blades, which look very much more like minotaurs, more like bulls, which is fantastic. So we basically have a marauder-esque unit, like an acolyte marauder unit. Yes, sure. The archers, the bliss bar of archers. Yeah, sure. It's the equivalent. What do you say? I'm looking. No, I guess not. Okay. So we just have an archers unit and we have basically two more seeker units and we have the beam blood, the slangorefina. Yeah. One has to assume the two seeker units is a dual kit. In fact, I would argue they took the same picture of this guy, like this is the same fig, right? You can tell it's a dual kit because look at the positioning, look at the shoulder pad, right? And the head position, like obviously this is the same kit with different options and in one he's got his arm bone and the other he's back holding the thing, right, when you attach a different arm. So clearly we'll get a new seeker double kit and then the new slangore, which will probably be three wound guys, just based on what their war cry stats are, because we did see their war cry stats. Yep. And they have the equivalent, they'll either be like three or four wounds somewhere in that range. I would bet more on three, but they have the same wound count in war cry as like other Zangor enlightened and Zangor on disc and stuff like that. Yeah. It's interesting. But also that takes into account like high saves, right? Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's, yes, where you get your, your sort of wound count in war cry is not always a direct, you know, one to one, right? Right, right. Because otherwise the storm fiends that you can play in the game would have like 60 wounds, you know, something crazy. Yep. They have a lot, but not that much. Sure. So that means that we basically have the archer kit. And as far as we know, there's no duel to that. There's no second half to the archer kit. Right. We have a new duel seeker kit. Yep. We have a slangore kit. Yes. We have the derpy pain guys that have been reeled in the video. So there's, this is what you're aiming at. There are 11 new kits for mortal slain. Is that what you're aiming at? Yeah. I was just trying to get an idea of boxes. Sure. So you've got it. Okay. So here's your boxes. You ready? And we got a new wizard revealed. What you don't have up here is the new, the new wizard with the boob window. Correct. Speak. Yes. Here's your new kits. Yep. Dual kit. One, you know, one kit, two scrolls of the pain bringers and the twin souls. Dual kit of the bliss barb seekers and the slick blade seekers. So again, so now we're two kits, four scrolls. The new archers that are on the screen and the new slangore that are on the screen. Okay. Yep. The lord of pain and sick build. Right. Well, both will be new individual heroes. Right. Yep. The palanquin we haven't seen yet. Okay. Yep. The dire chasm guys, whatever. Yeah. Right. The non the non hero unit. Right. Exactly. And then did I get everybody? That's so disappointing that they're a non hero unit because they're wonderful sculpts and I just don't see that they're going to get used. Why do you say that? I don't know. We can talk about it, but I don't know. Like, they just don't seem real compelling as a unit. So. Okay. All right. I mean, I am obviously very excited by these, by these new kits. No, the dire guy, sorry, the die, the die orgasm, like the dire chasm minis, that four unit non hero. Yes. Okay. Continue. Sorry. I mean, I, I don't know. I like them. I like them aesthetically. What I'm saying is that the way that the army functions, assuming that it's still going to run on depravity in some sense, like a four model unit with no heroes. Yeah, sure. With no heroes. Sure. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. So, but 11 new kits, which the answer is, or 11 new, sorry, 11 new scrolls with, you know, obviously nine kits. Yeah. So what that tells me is great. We're definitely getting a book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's this is not broken realms update. Yeah. We've set them for a new book. A new book is certainly, a new book is certainly coming. There's no question about that. And it'll be interesting to see how much of the mechanic changes. I'm hoping a fair amount, if you want my honest answer. Like, I would not hate it if things changed quite a lot. I guess is what I would say. The thing that they should definitely keep, you know, like, okay, we'd like, this isn't a slowness show. I mean, we'll do a prediction right at some point in the future. But here's like, I'll just give you my quick rundown. They should still have some kind of summoning. We'll see what that means. They should have the sixes double tap thing, right? They're like everything in slowness is sixes double tap. I mean, should they or could it just be neg for rent? That would be way better. Yes. No, you're right. Like, are you asking me to write my perfect book? It would be that. Right. You said double hit. And the question is, well, if we're going back to the new book, then why don't we just go to the 40k neg for it? I would give every because I would do that just to daemonettes is the answer. So the generic rule would be sixes or double taps. And how do I fix daemonettes and make them actually worth it? You give them the 40k rule where a six to hit is neg for rent. Right. Or in this game, I guess you'd have to shoot them up to neg three. I don't know. Probably we probably can't do neg four because we're all scared or whatever. But I think it'd be amazing to just have them actually have some kind of purpose. It'd be really great if my like one of the there are two battle line sort of units in this whole game, despite all of my armies, that I actually own more than 50 of painted. Just because in most cases, I don't tend to paint a lot of, you know, regular average people, the regular average boring things. And those two things are are plan rats of which I have 150 and daemonettes of which I have 70. And I would love it if I could actually use those daemonettes in some valuable way. Will depravity stay the same? Sure. Depravity is a good idea. It just needs to be like, is depravity a cool concept? Yes. Is it very poorly executed? Yeah. Because it turns it into like accounting the game. Right. Like you've seen me play the game where I'm sitting there literally with a piece of paper going like, like I need like an abacus to play that to play the depravity game. And I would love it if they just changed locusts completely and more or less fired that off the roof. Yep. Get just get rid of it. That's the toxic part of it. I would love it if it just did not function like that. That's cool. So what's the, I mean, it's not going to matter. His book's published, but I'd say what's the replacement for it then? I have no idea. I don't know. I'd need to think about it. The problem is Solanesh has all made a paper and probably always will be. Yeah. Right. And ultimately, that's a really big challenge in this game. Yeah. Like if you're, when you look at like what's good in this game, like what gets played, stuff that is a glass cannon is almost never worth it. It's almost never the thing that actually makes good lists because things have to be able to take a punch. There are some exceptions. They have to be so overwhelmingly good and fast and hit so hard that they can just win outright and never get struck back. So I'm thinking of like eels. Or a shooter. Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, I'm thinking of like eels, right? Eels are not tough at all. No, but although they're still tougher than most Solanesh stuff. Yeah, sure. But the thing is, is that being, having a low defense in this game just generally means you suck. It doesn't matter how hard you hit for the most part. Like people build tournament lists and do everything on defense because defense is actually what matters. And that's why like, gee, let's see. Some new mount traits came out for IDK. You could take the one that makes your turtle really killy or a good one that helps your offensive dumb unicorn seahorse. But do you do that? No. You take the additional neg one to hit and you take the ignore neg one rend. That's what everybody takes. Everybody will take. They might as well just printed them onto their war scrolls. It was silly that they even put two other ones on there. Okay. I'm not going to ask you this question because I already know the answer to it. But do we have too much defense? At the moment in the game? No, probably not. No, I think it's probably about where it should be. We've got some stuff that can be relatively hard. But no, I don't think so. Yeah, I think that like, I'm okay with this. I would love it if the Solanesh locus was just one of like exalted frenzy, right? One that drove them into being better at offense. The problem with that is, is that if you don't have some kind of always strikes first nonsense, like you're going to get in with one unit and then the next unit, you never get to fight with the second one because they become a red mist when you alternate activations, right? So, you know, what if they navigate those waters? What if they, because they're already like, like playing on a bunch of the elf stuff, what if they just always chose two units? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to just steal what the Lumineth do. Like, I think the Lumineth's rule is cool, right? They should have their own thing. I don't love this, like, oh, somebody thought of a good mechanic, right? So, let's just steal it. Yeah, you know, like, it would be great if maybe, maybe here's the simple way to do it, like, some version of death frenzy. So, even if you die, you still get to fight. Sure. Sure. Right? So, it doesn't, you don't change the order, you just get to fight. Yeah. Or, I mean, it could be something as simple as if you, here it is, if you have, if you have not yet activated this combat round and you die, you may pile an attack. Right, yeah, yeah, because I wouldn't want it to be the like, I fought and then I die and then I fight again. That's not what I'd be aiming for. Right, right, right. But like, ecstatic rose or something. Yeah, exactly. Yes, yes, absolutely. But the pain of getting, you know, killed was literally so, so enthralling to them that they still are able to fight before they go down. Yeah, sure. You know, again, I don't, ultimately, I don't know, I just, I hope we get a change, but I'm very excited because this is really going to fill out the army in a big way. I mean, like we said, 11 new scrolls is a lot of scrolls. And even though one of them is, yes, a the underworld's thing that's probably like, man, right. Okay, 10, 10 new scrolls. So that's cool. Like, I just don't know, like in a world of all, in a world of, you know, objective holding units and all these other specialized functions. Yeah. I don't know what a four model nonhero single wound unit does. One of the guys has two extra wounds. No, I understand. So you have a three wound guy and you have a bunch of one wound guys. I mean, that's my point. Like, I don't know what they're doing. They're not generating depravity. They're not, like they have to be 40 points. Well, they're not. They're more than that. But that's okay. In the new, I know, we'll see what the new book can do for us. So there you go. There you go. So Sean says, the space wolf, Wolfen in 40k have the, if they die, if they die, they fight, but just once. So they don't like fight, then die, then fight again. So they have what you're, what you're talking about. So there you go. Okay. So there you are. 40k solved it. Maybe we can too. Well, I think there's several things like that we should borrow from 40k. So that's great. I kind of wish we had borrowed for the giants. The, you can never be wounded on anything better than a four ability that some of the stuff have. So that would be cool. That would be neat. I thought that was a really cool rule that I think, I don't remember who has it, some kind of veterans or something. I don't know. It should be called wall of meat. Yeah. That would have been a great rule for giants, right? Just wall of meat. Yes. Uh, so at any rate, yes. Obviously, I'm going to be buying all these. Obviously, we're going to be doing a big show and obviously we're going to talk about them a lot more before they're out. So just get into it. As usual, this show, I went, I got it out by the way, Tom. I haven't put it on yet, but I did get it out and I've got it right here, ready to go. I've got my, I am excited about slin-esh pin all ready to go. It's right here. It's just waiting on me. Okay. Well, when that release happens, you can put it on. That's right. It's got to save it. Got to save it. That's basically it, right? Nothing else too much to talk about. Yeah, quiet air news week. I just wanted to, I did want to, as we move into pick of the week, this is going to be a shout out to something that will transition into the pick of the week, which is this last weekend. So for my pick of the week, I'm going to recommend the Honest Wargamer's coverage of the TTS Hammer Time event that went down this last weekend. It was very cool to actually watch a tournament happening. There was some fun commentary on games. It was some really fun games being played. And it was just honestly great to watch Warhammer, like tournament Warhammer, even though it was on TTS. I was like, oh my God, this is, I didn't really think about how much I missed this until I was watching the event live and was suddenly filled with hope, this very strange emotion. So I was very excited. I don't believe it. That's, yes, I guess we didn't talk about that. That did happen. 100 points for Shadow Soccer, Tom. What do you think? I'm a buyer at 100 points. I am as well. They're really good. We'll talk about them on a future show. So there you go. Yes, 100 points for you and the Shadow Soccer. I think they're really good. I think you should take them at 18 and I think they're good hammer. They're right there. Awesome. I don't think they're a good hammer, but we can talk about that. Future show. All right. But anyways, that's my pick of the week is that event coverage. It was fantastic. I really liked it. And just so you know, Tom, different flavors of Archeon won basically a lot of the tournament. Archeons here in a big way. It's one of the reasons I got to thinking about Gods this week, watching them as many different types of Archeon were winning there. What about you, Tom? What would you like to share with everybody? Yeah, I discovered a new channel this week. It is on YouTube called eBay Miniature Rescues. Oh yeah, man. I'm glad you discovered eBay Miniature Rescue. Yeah. It's like right up my wheelhouse and basically the dude is buying stuff on the cheap on eBay and then basically like salvaging them going through the restoration projects. And he does it like the like the HGTV Home Improvement Projects, like his cuts are like, and this is what we had. And we're just going to throw it in here and like it shows like two, like seven seconds of him working into the, he jumps back to talking to the camera and then back and forth. So everything's really well edited and it's just super engaging to watch these models that these models be given a second life. Recently, he did a great clean one and the one that he just, the video that got my attention was a corn army that he bought for like 80 bucks. That was like 82 models. And he dubbed it possibly the worst Warhammer army he's ever seen. Nice. Nice. And he starts with the old metal bloodthirster where like he doesn't have wings. So he like 3D prints wings for him and like he prints off like a resin base and then like goes to town and cleans them all up and pins them and fixes the weapon and then does all that and then paints it, you know, for tabletop, you know, whatever. So yeah, it was nice. It was a, it is a fun engaging addictive channel. Nice. So nice. Yeah. Yeah. He's done some crossovers with some of the other, some of the other YouTube folks. Like I'm pretty sure he did a crossover with at some point with Scott, or I know he did one with Emil, I think so, from Squid Mar. So yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Good stuff. He makes really great stuff and he seems like the nicest guy. I mean, I don't know. I might never talk to him, but he seems like a super friendly guy and certainly makes great content. All right. So let's talk about some hobby time. Tom, you mentioned you had some shadow stalkers in front of you on the table. What's up? What's up? What is that? What's your bet? Have you actually been painting them? Are you that excited about them? No, no. I'm not going to be able to put them on the table until like, I don't know who knows when. But I mean, can you see my hobby area back here? I can. Yeah. So like I have all my KO stuff that I have some of my fire slayers I've been working on. I have a bunch of my KO and, you know, I'm making some progress slowly but surely. Nice. Yeah. Like I'm going to, like I'm going to get them done first before I commit to anything else before I do my daughters because I'm like, I came over the daughter's list that I really like and it, you know, obviously it helps that those were those shadow stalkers are only 100 points, but I don't suspect that they'll stay that way for longer than six months, which is kind of disappointing. And so yeah, I don't know. So I'm going to work on my KO, just get all that stuff done. It's all like in process now and then I'll figure out where I want to go. Yeah. So that's fair. I mean, your point about hobby time as well, say that we didn't say it during news because I mean, I don't want to really bring everybody down, but it's worth mentioning the both LVO and adept con, you know, officially finally canceled this week. I don't know that if you still thought those were happening, I really question your sanity at this point in time. Like, have you, I just like, I want to just like gesture around to the world and be like, you know, that. So no, I mean, those weren't happening for months. They just decided to officially say it now. Like a rampant plague that's happening here in the US. Sure. Sure. That being said, you know, I'm hopeful that by the middle of the year we'll be back in tournaments. So there you go. Maybe summer. Where did they say a hundred points to the Shadow Stalkers? They published it out. On the War Scroll. Yes, it's all good. If you go down, download the AOS Shadow Stalker War Scroll, it's on the bottom. Yeah. And they're 100 points. Because it's actually max of 18 in a unit. They put out the actual update for the app. And so all that stuff is in there now and pointed and so on. So you can also just go download their scroll and now they have points on it. Yeah. The points are on the scroll when you download it off the website. Right. Yep. All right. Pretty awesome. It is pretty awesome. So my hobby time, the great journey to figure out my slanish mortal color scheme continues. And I think we got a winner this time. I like your pink and purple dinosaur. Oh, my pink and purple dinosaur. Well, we'll see if you like this guy. Obviously, you won't be able to see him too well, but I'll share the pictures of him this weekend. But I finished up my Lord of Pain. I see some purple and some blue and some teal. And we're going, we are going alien world bases. Got some nice tentacles there. We've got, and so we're going to, the armor scheme is a sort of pink to purple to turquoise sort of color scheme, like a light teal pop on some things and then darker spots. So yeah, that's him. I really like how he came out. Yes. Slid right back into your wheelhouse. Well, it's, it's, I mean, it is very different than what I've done on any miniatures. But as I was looking around, this is actually very reminiscent of the scheme I did on my 40k slanesh night, like chaos night, like big stompy robot night. I want to do some more of in that scheme, but, but I changed around some of the color pattern off it. Like I was just looking around for just kind of things and I've never like to have a, a, to have every plate has four different colors on it, right? Like it's the full synth wave walk from electric pink all the way down to electric blue through purple and turquoise, right? And I realized that's really what, like that's, that's what slanesh is all about. That's, let's be honest here. That's the, that's the life we've got to be living. So I, I'm really partial to Chuck's slanesh. Oh, the like white sort of everything faded out. Well, like he didn't fade it out. I may not do that, but like the white, purple, gold, like royal look, like the excessive, like, like outrageously royal. I might do that with like dark skin. Okay. So do like a deep tan skins with white, white, white, purples and golds. Fair enough. So at any rate, I'm, I'm excited about that scheme. I like it. And I'm excited that you have any slanesh does equal synth wave. I was like, look, I just need to lean full in, go hardcore synth wave. And, you know, then it'll still kind of look like it belongs with the other stuff, but it doesn't have to match perfectly. And I don't care. It'll be close enough. It'll have a completely different basing scheme. So Well, you just have to redo your city. So that, like the second half of the board is just like the edge of the city that drips drops down into like mutated chaos ground. And so then you have like, like raised flagstone city edge, and then chaos fields. Right. Yeah. And then you just, you know, put your models appropriate as appropriate on the board. Sure. In the right places. Yeah, I get it. The, so just I finished him up. And just, yeah, trying now I'm trying to figure out what else I'm going to, what I'm going to be working on, because I've probably got at least a month until I get, you know, more slanesh stuff. So I got to find a different project. God, I guess if I really like it and I want to just, you know, new bases, okay, that's fine. I'll just, I'll just get more keepers of secrets. Cool. What's the problem with that? No issue. All right. So with that hobby time out of the way, let's move on to our main topic. Shall we? Sure. All right. So main topic, we're going to talk about the gods of, of AOS here. Boom. So in AOS, in Age of Sigmar, there's a lot of actual gods that are, can show up on the table or that feature prominently in the story. This is ultimately mythic fantasy more than it's, more than it's like traditional high fantasy or sword and sorcery. Right. This is a mix of mythic and epic fantasy. Yeah. This is not Greyhawk anymore. It's Planescape. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so here's my, here's, I'm going to, I'm going to just advance this right out of the gate. You ready? Here's where I'm going. I was going to say, I don't care about the normal people in Age of Sigmar very much. And that's not a weakness. That's a strength. I hear this a lot. I know a lot of people want like, we want normal people so we can feel like we, we know what their struggles are. That's garbage. I don't need a normal human to empathize with them. Superman is one of my favorite comic book characters of all time. He is as far from a mortal man as you can get. Superman is a good character because he's a good character. You can have a god to be a good character. You can have some regular human be a good character. I hate this, this stupid shorthand that everybody says, like you can only write a normal power, a normal power level person as a good character. That's garbage. The best Superman story ever told was obviously when Grant Morrison wrote All Star Superman and shot his power up to like way higher than it even normally is and manufactured the most powerful Superman ever. And yet it's one of the most heart wrenching, beautiful, wonderful stories because it's all about emotional trauma and what you care about and what your attachments are to things and what you're willing to sacrifice. You know, emotional conflict, the things that actually matter in storytelling and emotional conflict is just as relevant if you're talking about a god over a realm or some dumb witch hunter on a street corner trying to shoot a cultist in the head. Okay, so my answer is the gods are cool because not only can they have like very emotional stories and loss and heartbreak and sacrifice and interesting stuff, but they can also like, you know, just turn people into woods or like project themselves in other realms and stuff like that's cool. That's super cool. They can do cool things. They're interesting characters. So, uh, so like I would rather them active agents in the world. They are absolutely active agents in this world. Uh, yes. Well, we'll talk about that. Yeah, that's what we're going to get into. So before now, before I ranch anymore, Tom, what's your feeling on the on the age of Sigmar gods? I just don't know. I don't know what any of this means. Okay, that's it. And what I mean by that is like, I don't know what it means to say Marathi is a god now. Okay. Like I don't, I don't see any of the gods like, like performing in any way that makes them more like God like personage like personas. Okay. They are just very powerful individuals. Sure. Does that make sense? Like Marathi was already toting around the heart of Cain. And I mean, on the tabletop, she was like head and shoulder stronger and a laryl and a laryl has been a god. Like, so I don't know like, I don't know what it means in world for these, these individuals to be gods, what they actually have control over. Like seemingly they have like influence in certain realms, but they're not tied to realms. So like, Sigmar seems to have easier, but like Dracotheon is kind of there too, apparently. Who's more of a god beast? But sure, I understand what you mean. Right. Or we have like, I don't know, like I just don't know what it means for them to be gods. Okay. Like, it doesn't mean omniscience. It doesn't mean omnipotence. Yeah, sure. Which is not weird. Every god in history ever created by mankind barring one does not have those as qualities. I sure, sure. No, I hear that. But so I like, I don't know what their constraints or their capabilities are. Like, I don't know, like on a power meter, I don't know what the difference between um, let's go a lauriel, Marathi post transformation, a Marathi pre transformation, the only thing or even Sigmar for that matter, the only thing that I'm sure of is that the chaos gods aren't even on their scale. They're over here somewhere. Sure. And so like, that's what I like, I just don't, I don't even know what this means. Yeah, I don't know. Like I've heard Doug on, you know, two plus stuff. I've heard him talk a lot about how he wants to see Godhood more well defined and understand what that means, which kind of feels like what you're pushing on. Yeah, my answer is, nah, I'm good. Like, that's fine. What does it mean? I mean, it means they're gods. Like, it means what you think it means. They have a God fall. Absolutely. They're in the club. They can roll up, they flip open their wallet. They're like, gods, I'm good here. Let me, I'm in, I'm in this club. They get access to all the sweetest clubs, free bottle service, right? Like that's just, just what you expect. No, I mean, they're, what does it mean? It means that they have power to make their will manifest to some degree or another, right? Especially within their own realm. Like I don't need to go read, and I'll, since we said this is planescape, here's what I'll say. Within the realm of planescape, right? There are like, lots of deities and near deities, right? Like, they're falling out everywhere, okay? Sure. Sure. And like literally, you can go hang out with Zeus, or Lathander, or Sheila, Pennyroyal, or whatever. Like these are, these are visitable people, right? Yep. Yep. And what defines them is a realm, like a domain. Sure, to some degree, they, they own, I mean, not all of them, not all gods have that level, but yes, sure. You know, and yes, in D&D, there's this concept of like lesser, intermediate, greater, or dispossessed, or whatever. Like they have all these different levels that gods can be, but I don't need to go read their stats. I just get it. They're very, very powerful. How exactly powerful? More powerful than you. You know, like that's the answer in the game, right? Or like they'll kick your teeth right down your throat if you decide to mess with them. That's how powerful they are, right? And that's kind of what, what it, it feels like to me here. And so, you know, they're like, yes, they, your main core is like an investiture of the winds of magic, right? Or the realm. Clearly that's not the only path in here, right? Like as Marathi just proved, right? Right. Right. So like, and the reason why this gets, gets me is I think about the fire players, right, Grimnir, like their god, Grimnir, sure, sure, sure, which is like in gold, yes, scattered throughout the realm. Like that's the lore and they're trying to like reassemble enough of Grimnir to like, I don't know, have like a no, they have a, they have a underpants gnomes plan. Okay. Step one is find pieces of God. Step two, step three, Grimnir, that's their plan. It is the least thought out thing, yes. And, and they like use that God in the middle, like they pound that God into their flesh. Sure. Yeah, I don't know. Like I, I just, I don't like, I don't know what we're talking about. So like, I can, I can talk about the gods abstractly, right? But like, I just don't know. So like, let's talk about this. So like Grungy seems to be hanging out. He's around somewhere. He's never, yeah, I mean he disappeared. But yes, he's around somewhere. He never died, if that's what you mean. But right, right, he never died. And he's like commissioning people on quests for the spirit of lamentations and stuff like that in AOS lore. So like, he's functioning. He's doing things in the world. Yeah, or at least he had, he had done. Yeah, like he's been doing it in the AOS world. Yep. But he's a god. Sure. Like, what's he doing? And like, and like that's, I don't know, like I just, so is he just a dude? Are we just talking about powerful mortals here that basically are not mortals anymore? I would assume so. Yeah, to some degree, right? Again, like if I'm talking about, so I just watched, let me give you an aside. Let me see if I can put this in perspective. Like I just watched Blood of Zeus on Netflix. Have you watched this yet Tom? Nope. Would highly would recommend. Fantastic. It's fantastic. Okay. At any rate, it has to do with the Greek gods. Right. And one of their like, and one of Zeus's sons, like an illegitimate son as well. Sure. And it was great. Like it was fantastic. And in it, it has to do with like the gods defeating the Titans and from the blood of the Curse of the Last Titan rises these giants and they curse the world and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, you know, the gods are all in there and like what are the Greek gods? Well, they live up in a city and it's on a mountain and they're all like really, really powerful. Right. And like how, what exactly can they do more than you? Is the answer like they can see for miles and send birds and hear thoughts and drive a chariot, made a fire around and hit people like super hard with hammers and cause tidal waves and shoot lightning bolts, you know, like they can do all that stuff depending on whatever god they happen to be. It's a little more superhero we take on it, like Hermes can be invisible and is super fast. Can he run on water? Yeah, of course, he can. He's that fast, right? He's Hermes. He has like the flash level powers, right? Right. Well, that's what I'm asking. Like, are we just, are we talking about superheroes here? Yeah, sure. But like, but like, the very upper echelon, they're cosmic heroes. So they're like tier five mutants. No, they're cosmic heroes. They're cosmic heroes. Well, any time you know is like whatever you're talking about, that stupid rating system that mutants have, he's not immortal. That dude gets older. But no, like once you develop your powers, like if you can actually, if you can do atomic manipulation is the key, then you become immortal because you can, you can manipulate your own body. Like eventually, like that's the, that's the tier we're talking about. I'm not sure Iceman is the following category. This is going to take a turn. Yeah, he actually is. And that's what we found out like later in the 2000s, right when I stopped reading. Anyways, so I say all that to say, like, I think, like when we were defining this, it seems like what we're defining is, we're defining powers, like, like sentient powers that, that have like control at minimum over themselves to some degree grim near as the exception to this. And that they can influence the world around that. And invest some of their power into others. Right. Like that's also part of this is the ability to, to offer others an investiture of your power without a diminishment of yourself. Yep. Yep. So, okay. Yeah, but by that definition, as Jose, I think has just pointed out, like Archeon is really on the border of like a God. Oh, we're going to talk about him. Don't worry. Yeah, he's coming up. He's coming up. Okay. Okay. Let's see. I'm looking at, I'm just looking, I'm just catching up. All right. So, yeah, to me, they're just really powerful people. I'm watching your comments there, Nick Stockton. I totally think that it's a good analogy to Planescape, but I'm interested why you don't think it is. At any rate, let's talk about them individually. Okay, so let's start out here with, and here's, here's the things I want to touch on with each of these gods, Tom, or near gods, right? Okay. Okay. So, one, what do we think of them narratively in the story? Like, are they cool? Do we get good stories with them? Like, are they narratively interesting? Okay. Two, if they have game rules, how good are they, right? Like, so, so just, we'll talk about their quality in game if they show up, because a lot of these, a lot of these do, not all of them. Three, if they don't, should they show up in the game? Okay. And then what do we think they'll be, right? And then, yeah, any, and then catch all of, like, whatever, whatever, anything else we want to think is interesting with them. So let's start out at the beginning with Alariel. She's been up on the screen the whole time. What do you think about Alariel? Didn't even notice that it was Alariel. Sorry. What do I think in game, or what do I think in lore, why? Let's start out narratively, yes. Her lore, right? Like, Alariel story, what do we think of her narratively, that kind of thing? I think she is lackluster. Okay. Tell me why. Narratively, she's functionally only served as a damsel in distress, or an ally when they needed a fall person. Like, that's what we saw in Broken Realms. Like, Marathi needed a fall person. So she's like, hey, how about you come help us with Sigmar. Open this gate in your realm. Sure. I don't know. Like, I just, I have been, like, she's in her war aspect and she's not going to war. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean, she's an interesting, she's an interesting case because I think you're right that a lot of her early story was just really underwhelming, right? It was a lot of, like, oh, she's sad and heartbroken and weak and the stormcaster kind of protecting her as she's, you know, running from Nerval. And she does have, you know, like a moment where she comes out strong in that fight, right? But toward the end of it all, obviously, when she sort of fully ramps up. But oftentimes, she just ends up feeling like a, I don't even want to say this, like a background character, right? She doesn't seem to have the same agency or depth. She has no motivation in the world. Right. Other than, like, I like trees, stay out of my realm. And yet at the same, yeah, good. She's reactive. She's reactive to everything. Right. Like, I want to see her retaking space. Yeah. What I mean by that is like, like, you know, we talk about, like, Nurgle infesting. Yep, sure. Like, I want life to explode. Well, that's, you know, one of the things that was cool as they talk about, if you look at the stuff that's been written about the early, you know, the age of myth, right? One of the reasons that you can live in most places in the realms in the center of the realms is because of Elorio. Right. Because she literally walked around the realms and bloomed life everywhere and turned these harsh magical escapes into like life sustaining things. Now they're still influenced by their realm, right? But the reason you can live in so many places in Akshi and the realm of fire is because she walked around and sowed life into everything. Right. Yep. So, I mean, it's cool that she had such a hugely formative element in the early part of the realms. But then, since the age of chaos, she just doesn't do much. And it's a shame because she is a really cool character, right, as the head of the Sylvaneth. And yet what she ends up often having to do is like just work on keeping the peace between her own angry tree people and her other allies. Which, by the way, could be a really cool story to explore at a deeper level with her. The fact that she has these children that she can barely keep a handle on, right? And not only that, but there seems to be tension within her ranks. Like Doug did an excellent, excellent video. Like did an excellent, excellent video a while back on Allariel. And if you watch his sequence of Allariel, I talked about this a little bit. It seems like, narratively, they are portraying her as like a post-traumatic, like she's a survivor. It's the best way that I'm going to articulate it. And because of Nurgle's, how he has infested and abused the realm is the best way to describe it. And I want more of like a Jessica Jones story. Sure. Right? Like, I want to see her agency. I want to see her come out and do some work. Right. And we just haven't gotten that. Yeah, I agree. She mentioned her. And so I say that, sorry, I got going somewhere with that, is that like there seems in the midst of this trauma, the Kernoth arrived. Like they popped up and there's a mystery as to like where they came from and how they relate to the other children of the forest. Because they're not like on the same page, the Kernoth hunters. And so they, and like there seems to be something going on there in the lore. And like none of that's ever been touched or explored or, and so even tensions amongst her own people seem to be a real thing that needs to be dealt with. And that's a great story I would love to see explored. Yeah. All right. I think that the broken realms represents like a real opportunity for her. I'll just say. I hope so. I hope so. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about her in the game. Is she the worst of all the gods with rules? Yes, or near gods? Yes. Like, let me just say this, the rules are written to her narrative characterization. Sure. Sure, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, like in the game, it's she's terribly depressing, underwhelming rules wise. She went and just slept for an age. Sure. You look at what you're getting out of that same amount of points in almost any other, you know, god or near god we're going to talk about tonight. And it's just, I mean, it's not even close. Right? Yeah. I mean, she's bad, like real bad. And it's a shame. There you go. I don't know what else to say about it. We've talked to L'Oreal to death, but she is bad in the rules. And like, that's not great. So hope I wish she were. Yeah. I'm hoping broken realms both get both somewhere in here. We get a really good story for her and a new war scroll for her. Yep, we can broken realms could fix everything with a L'Oreal because we could get some really good story that gives her some real like, agency, some real, what do I want to say, like impetus for why she's doing whatever she's doing. And I want to see your schemes and her plans. What are her dreams? Yeah, sure. 100%. And we're going to talk about gods where we know that quite well. They're failings in there. And there's stuff like that where they're interesting. All right. Cool. Right. Okay. So that is a L'Oreal. All right. Let's go to the next one. Let's talk near God. But he's next. That's right. It's Archeon, an original human. Are you going alphabetically? Not completely. Just happened to be in this case. Some of them are like these two just happened to stay alphabetical. Yep. Archeon is still mortal somehow, right? Despite the fact he's at this point many, many, many thousands of years old and has survived an apocalypse that he caused. Yes. He's the second one too, right? Like the age of chaos. Well, he's the usher of the age of chaos. Yes. The grand marshal of the apocalypse, right? Empowered by all of the chaos gods to some degree or another. Yep. And yet, not actually a god, but certainly on par, if not greater than many of them. Right. You know, like he could certainly match, you know, power against most of the manifested gods. Like if, you know, that is to say, like if you put him up against Teclis or Allorio, and I'm not talking game rules right now. I'm just thinking like narratively, right, in the world. Yes. I don't think you would necessarily bet on any of the gods to walk away from that fight, right? But, you know, theoretically this guy can be this thing, what Archeon is. Theoretically, he could be killed. He could be destroyed. Maybe. Sure. To me, that's like he steadfastly refused to ally himself with any god. And you always get the distinct feeling that he hates the chaos gods as much as he uses them. Yeah. One of the reasons I'm a stand for Archeon, just to talk about him narratively, is because I think he's a actually very interesting character. Right. He, whether we go back to his role in The End Times, or just actually doing things like you read about him in the stories where he shot pops up in Sigmar, he's generally a character with, that always feels like it's got this interesting emotional turmoil into what he's all about. Like that he's been driving so long at something and he's not, he isn't sure even what the end of his own road is, or that he wants to be on it, but it doesn't matter. This is where he is now, this is what he's doing, and there's no turning back from it. So I don't want to say conflicted, because it's not like he feels, I don't feel conflict in him. It's more that it's just like he feels like somebody who's gone a long way in his career and now doesn't know how to do anything else anymore. So I think he's just actually a super cool character, and I like seeing stories from his point of view. That's what I'll say. Agreed. So here's the question, what is his end game? Sure, yeah. What does Archeon ultimately want? I mean, we know that yet again, he seems to have this desire to destroy all of civilization and bring everything to heal. It seems like his goal is to end existence, because originally that was his goal in the end times. He wanted to unmake everything. That was the goal, and yet he wasn't released. So it's really like, I think there is a sense in which he wanted to unmake everything and bring everything to an end, and he did. And then now it feels like he is trapped in this perpetual cycle of destruction as an agent of destruction, where there is no end for him. And so my question is, what is his motivation now? Well, I think that's exactly what I'm pointing to, right? So for example, when you read in Wrath of the Everchosen, because you get some areas from his point of view, it's more from Catacrys than dead people, but you get some from his point of view as well. And you know, when he's going to Friislanesh, he's just there because you almost get this sense of like, oh, this is what I should be doing because this is what I have to go help this stupid chaos god, right? I don't want to do this, but fine, I'm the only one who can do it. All the rest of these, everything, everybody else and everyone else is worthless. And you know, he's always like, fine, I'll go in there, I'll start snapping these chains. And then he gets the like, the ping from the Eye of Ed Sheeran or whatever, right? That he needs to go back to the eight points because Catacrys is screwing around in his territory. So he's just like, and then he leaves and heads out and takes his forces and goes back there to deal with that, shows up, beats the crap out of that guy, and then, you know, just, okay, fine, I summoned that or I fixed that, right? But he always just feels like he's running around doing the errands of chaos and he's never happy about it. I would love, so who, so there used to be an old chaos god that was like black and white. Was it, it wasn't Molek, it was Malus, Malus? Somebody will say in the comments, so but I think that like, he may have been the god of like, hatred. Do we have a god of hatred? I mean, I don't know that these gods actually match to anything. Malol, is that hatred? I don't know. I do not know enough about that, that god was not part of the pantheon when I started playing, so I don't know. But yes, I just, I wonder if the, like, I wonder if the end game is him becoming some type of avatar or incarnation of Malol. So Malol, I'm pretty sure they got rid of him for reasons of IP and trademark stuff, so. Sure, but like, so he was in the lore, he was like a renegade chaos god who had turned against the others and had kind of dedicated his own existence to their destruction. Got it. And so it seems like it's like the, like the chaos turning into consume itself type of idea. Sure. And like, he just seems like the perfect candidate for that. No, I agree. I would love to see a story on a long enough timeline where he destroys a chaos god or something, right, in whatever way, whatever way that means, right? I imagine the chaos gods are, are eternal in some way, but I would love it if he destroyed one in whatever temporary way that means and forced it to be reborn into a new form or something like that. Yeah. So Malol's like hatred wasn't his thing, but like destruction was. And so for him, it was destruction even of oneself and one's own like soldiers and agents. In that like, and again, he hated the four chaos gods. And I just wonder if like, if he is not embodying the spirit of that in what he's doing. But he definitely isn't a big fan of his, of his managers, right? Like he doesn't, he uses them because they provide him that they are simply the best vehicle to his goals, right? Right. Which, you know, is the destruction of all of this stuff, all of the, all of these sort of living things, they're either brought to heal to his side or destroyed. That's it. Those are the options, right? So at any rate, yeah. Let's talk about him in the game. Sure. Okay. As I mentioned, like the top three lists or something out of this last week were all our young lists. He's amazing in the game. I absolutely love piloting him around. And he is, I think the best God or near God right now, like he's a powerhouse on the table who is good in any number of forces. Like he has at least five armies he can be good in. Well, and I think, you know what, you know why that is? Because he's keyword. Yeah, because of keywords. Sure. Yes. Like, because he plays in everybody's rule sets. Right. Because he's mortal and demon and heat knight and all four of the chaos gods and and and and yes. Like if there's ever a question as to how to make things work, keywords are the secret. Like they really are and they always have been. Which is why like the chaos gods have traditionally broken some of the composition rules for synergies and stuff like that is because you're able to back in and sneak in keywords into allegiances that may not normally happen. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's potent because he absorbs all of the different allegiance abilities and buffs and things like that. He's a great leader of his own force. Like he is incredible in slaves to darkness itself as the leader on the table. Uh, but he's also great in some of the God marked forces. And so I just think he's everything that like building a big god like being should be when you look at what he's capable of in the game. Right. He's destructive. He's dangerous. He's tough. He has ways to survive against spells against shooting against melee against kind of everything. Right. He lives up to the way you read him in the stories. Like it's not that he can't be brought down in the game. Certainly I've lost our key on like he can be brought down. But he is about as uh, he's about you do feel like you're piloting him when you're piloting that model. Right. He lives up to the hype is what I think I would say. Yeah. No, I think that's accurate. And like he's worth his points. Yes. Somehow it's so hard to make something worth 800 points worth its points. And yet I absolutely think he is. Yep. Yeah. 100%. And a big part of that is defense. Ironically enough. Well, that's what we were talking about. Right. I mean, it's what the aforementioned L'Ariel has almost none. Archeon has defense fallen out everywhere between a good save and a way to stop mortal wounds and a way to shut off spells and make you attack him. Rural sixes, which is just, you know, actually on the slide, one of the most powerful things you can have in this game since so many special things trigger on sixes. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And expect you combine that with minus to hit. Yeah, sure. Which is why, and we know what we, one of the things we saw this weekend was just how scary he is in zinch when because he's a zinch demon, he just has now a built-in neg one to be hit in melee, right? And then also could have easily have things like Geminids wheeling around, right? Or whatever. Uh, but as well, they, there was a great host arcanum list where he jumped forward at the beginning of the game as he can do in host arcanum because he's a flying unit and then ended up charging into two units of skinks after one of them got devolved forward, which was beautiful. And he blew up about 30 skinks out of each unit, which then completely rendered them worthless. And, um, and then basically proceeded to put, uh, put the dead frog in the sword. Uh, never mind the fact that in zinch, he's also quite powerful because he, um, because you can just have sixes that you roll for wounds and you can just put people in the sword. Yeah, you can just cheat and put people in the sword. Uh, so, uh, yes, like between, you know, I've, I've piloted Archeon now at a couple of different tournaments, always had a good time with him. Usually when I run him, it's my slanesh version. Uh, but I've run, I've run a zinch one before at a tournament. So, yeah, I mean, he's fun. He's fun. Yep. Uh, I think we'll continue to see Archeon just kind of be around in broken realms and in all stories. Like he's going to be the ever present thing. He will always be around. He will always be a foe. He is a manifestation of chaos and in a physical threat in a way that because the chaos gods don't manifest, right, that they won't be. Yeah. Yet. Yet. Sure. Sure. Uh, although I mean clearly now we have something wandering around the realms that is slanesh. So, well, yeah. At any rate, Archeon to me, narratively amazing, rules-wise amazing. I dig him. I think he's great. I think he's a great villain and a dude you can totally, uh, enjoy piloting at the same time. So that's cool. Agreed. Speaking of the chaos gods, let's, uh, let's branch out to just talk about them for a moment here. Okay. So let's talk about the chaos gods. Uh, I don't want to go too deep into this because, you know, there's the, each of these could easily have their own show, right? I mean, the cast gods are the defining elements of the realms because they are the ever present foe, right? Uh, the very nature of as long as there is people, there's chaos and they just kind of, you know, they are what gets invited in. Um, I think the cast gods make for an excellent foil, uh, in the world. I obviously, there's something that is, uh, although not a completely original idea, there is certainly these, that the concept of these cast gods are certainly derived from other narrative sources, pre-Warhammer. Um, but they feel very uniquely Warhammer, right? Yes. And I like their, their Cthulhu like character. Sure. That they're just kind of big and unknowable and, and destructive to the mind and, and everything like that. They are both everything you want and completely madness inducing and destructive at the same time. Right. Uh, and we're never going to set down a nergal model. No, that's just it. So yeah, one of the things that obviously there are no chaos God models and I would hope there never are, but that being said, I am very interested to whatever this protein form is or whatever that is baby slanesh. Right. Uh, I think they just saw baby Yoda and we're like, look, babies are in right now. Baby versions of stuff. They saw how successful baby nut was for planters and they were like, we've got to get our own baby version. So they wanted baby slanesh. It's a, it's a, like it's pretty obvious to me. That's what we're doing here. Marketing 101. Get your own successful baby. So yeah, I mean, like, I don't know where that's going to go, but that is the kind of thing, that little protean thing, whatever that is. I doubt they would ever make a scroll for that or a model for that because it's probably part of the ongoing story, but at the same time. So like if you ask me, I'd say 70, 30, they would never 80, 20, they would never do it. But if they did it, I'd be like, yeah, okay, this is going to be around for a little while. I mean, slanesh has been in chains for six years of our time, right? Of like human time. Six years. Yeah. We haven't seen Hyals for five. Right. Right. Exactly. So at the same time, I could see them, you know, actually making the protean form a model or something, whatever it chooses, what its form is. I could see it being like luxuriating in all of its tentatively goodness on the Palenquin. Sure. Sure. That's what they're carrying around on the Palenquin, the little protean form, whatever it's fine, whatever it's, because it was, you know, as they describe it in the story, it's like hunting about and searching for what its actual form will be, right? Right. Choose the form of the destroyer, right? So, you know, like, I'm hoping a slanesh person thought of the state buff marshmallow man. I think that would be really great. But yeah, I think that would, you know, that would be really fantastic. So, and it would be cool because it's interesting if slanesh actually stays locked up for some time, but has this other form, this other, yeah, this other interesting agency, right? Well, we've had, like, in the sub factions, right, of slanesh followers, like one of them, like one of the sub factions are claiming they are slanesh. Yeah, sure, the pretenders. And like, this is just like a pretender that's not pretending. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. So, this is like, this is not the man of steel or the boy wonder or any of the false supermans. This is like black black coffee. Black suit Superman. Black suit Superman, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's a great reference. Who's the most interesting cast God, Tom? Narratively. It has to be Zinge. Why? Because he has motivation to work with everybody. He can be in anything. He can be associated with anything. He's associated, like from a storytelling standpoint, he can be a spoiler in any conflict. He can be in any city. Like, you don't have a whole bunch. I mean, the reason the gray water fat or yeah, the reason the gray water fascinist exists, right? Is that the one? Yeah, that's the one. Is because of Zinge. Like, Zinge, what a very powerful Zinge spellcaster infiltrated and basically built, gave them the industry to create gray water out of nothing, right? Right. Like, Zinge helped build civilization. Of course he did. Like, but that's the point. Is that like, out of everybody, like, corn's not hanging out in gray water fastness. Right. Right. And like, even though it's obviously not corn, nobody, what, what sane person would would argue that corn is the most narratively interesting? No. The second, by the way, for me is, is nervel. Just because of his general joviality? Like, because it's, because death is the perennial thing. Like, it is, it gets ever present. And it's not like, and so this is the like, the mockery of death, in a sense of like, what Nervel is. And so I can see a world where like, where his followers are a thing in real society. Like, I know that sounds horrendous, but like, it has a real place. And so I think Nervel to me is another one that's narratively interesting. Like, like, Slaanesh and corn are the two that I'm just like. Wow. I definitely am not putting Slaanesh in that camp. I mean, obviously I'm biased there. I agree with you on the scene. I think it's just one of the more narratively compelling ones, because each can show up as friend or foe as instigator or solution as dupe or pawn or master mind. Right. Like, ZH ends up playing kind of every role and can be showing up in all the stories. I would argue Slaanesh should be at least in the discussion solely because of the narrative of what's happened with it, her, she, them, within this current story, right? The fact that Slaanesh has been so much motivation for so much of what has gone on with the elves and with Archeon and with, you know, a lot of things have been motivated. I think of, you know, everything that happened with Marathi's Ascension. And when she goes back into the belly of Slaanesh and, you know, feeds him all the other gods, chaos, worshippers to like poison Slaanesh, right? Because they can't, they can't stomach each other. They can't, they're all toxic to each other. Right. Right. So I just think that, that Slaanesh ends up, has been used really interestingly is what I would say, right? Sure. Within the story of Age of Sigmar. But for me, the concept of these gods and how they're manifested in the world are uninteresting. Like, that excess is uninteresting. And it's funny because I just watched the Rome, like the documentary slash like dramatic dramatization on Netflix, the series of Rome, the first one Caligula, like the first season was. And so like we want to talk about excess. Like so like, but as far as like the way that excess is manifested in the world, I just like it's just, it's so campy to me. Yeah, I don't know. That's fine. I get it. I get what you're saying. It's just it's the one that makes the most sense to me. Like say what? Slaanesh has always been the one that makes the most sense to me. Oh, of course it does. Like, yes. And I understand that. But like it just seems like it just so uninteresting as a villain. I don't know. Sure. To me, it just represents like the Nurgle thing. I think we've all seen what having Nurgle be a little too present in the world leads to and it's not fun. You know, corn is obviously not really part of the discussion of the modern world. Like that is to say, we know nobody's going around like, yay, you know, let's do let's do some rage and murder and mass, right? Like, no, I think we, you know, the chart of violence in the in the modern world is just this this downward facing thing. You know, Siege, I don't even know what the heck that means in the context of real humans. Like, that's why Siege is kind of interesting narratively, because it doesn't have that. It's it's hard for me to tell what that even means when mapped out to people. So Siege kind of has to be doing things, right? Because it isn't just like the background of disease or war and anger or excess, right? Like Siege is like, because it's about plotting and fate and whatever nonsense it did that stupid bird thinks it's all about, right? It has to be an active participant in the story, right? Right. Even when it's not known about. Right. So it's, you know, but but excess is part of our everyday lives, all of us. It is like we all are going to partake in something to too much. Right. So I mean, it's just it's such a it's such an easily readable part of the human condition is what I would say. So that's and that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. And I mean, maybe it's just the way that it's mapped out and explored in like traditionally how that has manifested in the in the like in the Warhammer tropes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we can't hold the people who are like, yeah, I don't want to get into it. But yes, so it gets the worst of it from how it's perceived. Right. And so like of all the shortcuts, because all these cast gods have like these sort of heuristic shortcuts, and and slanesh gets the worst of that. Right. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Yep. And so, I don't know. I think that yeah, so my favorite two are zinchen and nergal, for that sense, like, narratively, like, they're just the most like, yeah, I mean, I think is a is a is a close third with corn, the most uninteresting. Obviously, it's just, it is the unidimensional chaos God. Right. There's, there's nothing narratively happening there. So in light of that, let's talk about the horned rat. Well, we're going to hold on. He's, he's, I've got, he's got his own section. We're right here. We're right here. And look who's next. It's the horned rat. Maybe it's like I kind of organize these pictures. That's why I said they're not just alphabetical. Yes. Absolutely. Let's talk about the horned rat, Tom. Okay. So number one, you know, I saw somebody in the comments say, it's like Vince doesn't even think that the horned rat is a chaos God. You're absolutely right. I don't think that the horned rat is a chaos God. It's not. I mean, it's just not. We can try to shove that fifth chaos God in there all you want. It's not happening. Okay. One of these is not like the other. Stop trying to make that happen. It's not going to happen. Yeah. I mean, the, the horned rat is more like, like a Laurel. Okay. Okay. Unpack that for me. I'm interested, but go ahead. He's just doing his own thing. Sure. Sure. Always. Always. Always just doing his own thing. Yeah. Like disconnected from the rest of everything. He, you know, in that sense, he's also like Siege. Like he may be involved or maybe not. If, if Nagash is there, he's certainly involved as a spoiler. But he's all about like just making his, you know, his world and his people and doing his thing. Yeah. And he wants to become a chaos God, but he doesn't even know what that means. I don't think like, because again, the, the, the misdefinition that we started with, I think is like embodied in the horned rat. He doesn't know what the hell the chaos gods are, but he wants, he wants the power. He wants to be like that thing. Sure. But like he, like, but he is going to bother. Yes. Right. But he is an embodied, embodied power as much as any of these other gods that we've talked about. Let me tell you why I think the horned rat is the, is, is super cool. Because I think he is super cool. Okay. I agree with him. Embodiment, embodiment and delusion. Well, he's the embodiment of a lot of different stuff. What's cool about the horned rat is that he has sort of 13 personalities. Right. Sure. Have you watched any doom patrol? No. Okay. It's a good show. Check it out. At any rate, one of the characters in the doom patrol, Jane, she has like 64 personalities. And some of them are very nice. They all have, they all have their own superpowers, every, every one of them. So when she switches personality, she switches superpowers and stuff. At any rate, some of them are very nice. Some of them are very destructive. Some of them are outright evil, terrible people. Some of them are really beneficent and kind. Right. And what's fascinating about the horned rat's 13 personalities is there's a, there's a sort of, there's a couple different interesting discussions about this, the sort of nature of his, his, its mind. Right. And what it is, and it is always doing its own thing, even amongst itself. That is to say like its distinct personalities aren't in sync with each other. It will work against its other selves, its other personas as it were. Right. And it might do, it might accidentally do good sometimes. I mean good, not in the like, it's setting out to be morally good, you know, but good, like it's a net positive for the, for the realms, the things that the horned rat instigates. Right. But it has no intention of that. It just doesn't realize that these three personalities that have all plotted against each other have accidentally then created this one plan that's going to result in Sigmar winning something or whatever. You know what I mean? Like it didn't ever intend that. Right. So I find this completely duplicitous figure, right, that even its own followers don't really know or understand. Like even the vermin lords that are, that are manifestations of its power directly, right, of one of its faces directly, one of its facades or whatever, still find the thing completely unknowable. Right. Because they're never sure what it, like which of the, which of the horned rat are they talking to? Right. Sure. Yeah. So it's just a really fascinating, strange enigma of a God, because almost all of these have some kind of plan. Like, or you could say what their personality is. Whereas with the horned, like even the chaos gods themselves aren't, you know, in and of themselves, super chaotic, right? They have agendas they're trying to achieve. They all have unified purposes. Right. Right. Yes. And he doesn't. He doesn't. No, absolutely. The horned rat has like no great unified purpose. Even the idea that it wants to be one of the full fledged chaos gods. No, not all of the personalities do, right? Like some of them want to just leave. And some of them don't want to mess with us at all. And whatever, whatever, right? Right. He is in one sense chaos incarnate. Right. Because he's just literally like a rat chasing cheese. Right. Right. It's strange, because on one hand, I hate the idea of him being like this dangler fifth chaos god, right? Where he just doesn't belong, right? Right. Right. Because, and that's because the chaos gods have been so set in our minds of the narrative, right? Yep. Yep. And their machinations against one another and against the the mortal realms are all, you know, well storied and known and stuff like that, right? Even knowing you're dealing with one of the horned rats, machinations is often tough, right? Right. And it, it as a thing embodies chaos more than any of the chaos gods by far. And yet he doesn't feel like he should be in chaos. He feels like he should be part of destruction. Honestly, not even that. No, because the horned rat builds stuff. He builds lots of stuff. He loves creation. What some of his personalities do, right? Like some of the horned rats personalities love creating big, scaven cities and warrens and love fostering invention and innovation, right? That's, that's one of the aspects of, of the horned rat is the drive after creation and innovation. Now, some of it's also like destructive and war and disease and things that are just completely antithetical to civilization, right? But that's just it. He's, yes, it's all of those things in this one being. That's why it's perfectly chaos, right? It feels like it should just be its own faction. Like scaven don't belong in chaos, but they don't belong anywhere else either. They're just their own thing. They're independence. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're just, they're just this. That's not, that doesn't mean they're mercenary. It just means they're unaffiliated is what it needs to say above him, right? Like, nah. Right? We're all good here. Right, exactly. Like I, there's, what was Groucho Marx's, you know, famous comment, I'd never be part of any club that would have me as a member, right? That's, that's exactly the horned rat right there. You know, he shouldn't be in any club that would have the horned rat as a member. So yeah. And I think that in the end, obviously, we should never have a fake for this. The, the vermin lords are fine. They're a great representation. Good enough. Right, right. Okay. Anything else you want to say about Mr. Horned Rat, other than obviously he has the best children and scaven are cool. And I can't wait for Broken Realms 6 or the launch of 3.0 when we get the relaunch scaven line. I'll allow the necrons of this here. Continue, John. I, the fact that like we have no holes, follow me down this no hole. I'm ready. I'm ready. So the premise of no hole is that they've tunneled through reality. And so the no holes are like literally like traveling between realities. Right. Yep. And there's a sense in which that's where the horned rat dwells. Yeah. In between. Yes. He is the in between. He is the, he is the god that's in your walls. Right. Yeah. Doesn't belong in any of the realms. Doesn't call any of the realms home. Right. It's always just the in between spaces. Right. Yeah. The neglected the, you know, the, yeah. And so there's a sense in which like he embodies that reality. Yep. Absolutely. All right. Cool. Yes. He is a classically great God. And as I said, anytime we want to relaunch that whole scaven line, I'm in. This one might be a quick one. Let's talk about Grimnir. You already mentioned him some. I did. This is pictured here the moment slightly before his death or whatever in as much as he can die where he's fighting Volkatricks. And he exploded. He exploded. And now, as I mentioned, his followers have a underpants gnomes plan to go around and find the pieces of him and probably eventually somehow put him back together, whatever that means. Okay. This is your guy, Tom. You're the one who decided to do this naked baby army. What do you think about this guy? Narratively, I mean, God's like money can't be God's. Well, there's a major portion of this country that would disagree with you, but at any rate, right? But like, but like, that's what we're talking about here, right? Like, realm stone, like functionally, they're worshiping realm stone. Sure. Like, obviously, like an oxy or gold isn't realm stone, but it's like in the same space. I don't know. Like, I just, this is one of those narratives that it just like I just honestly personally ignore. The fact that you're God exploded. Yeah. Like, I like that didn't happen. Sure. No. But I did. See, I have the picture of it right here, Tom. This is five seconds before he explodes right here. I mean, that's what the legends say. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like, I just, I don't know. Nope. Like, because Grimneer, like grotech, right? That's his name. Go Trek. Go Trek. There we go. Yeah. He, like, he became Grimneer. Like, that was the culmination of his storyline with end times and all that. Like, he is Grimneer. Period. He is. Okay. He is. Like, that's what happened in the lore. Go Trek is wandering around the realms. Yep. Sure. Sure. Being like, certainly a character who's horribly frightening. Yes. Who could kick the pants out of most of these people we've talked about. Yes. Yeah. Like, in the right point range, ironically enough. Like, he's Grimneer. Like, he's not, but he is. Sure. I don't know. Like, he's much more interesting. He's super interesting. Like, I don't know. I just, I don't know what to make of the Grimneer storyline, honestly. Yeah. I couldn't find a good picture of Grungney. Grungney, however you say his name. Because it's just, like, Sir not appearing in this film. This guy, whatever his story is. You know, like, he shows up in some of the background lore of, like, he helped Sigmar build stuff and then he started with the, you know, he's kind of part of the architect of the forages and stuff. And then he just kind of, he pissed off and nobody knows what's up with him or whatever. Right? But Grimneer, we get a lot more story of, and obviously we have his children quite directly manifesting in the world, as you mentioned. Right. Right. Right. Through the fire slayers and everything with Ergold. Yep. The, my argument with this guy is, I agree with you. Who cares? This is, like, the most boring God story. Like, it's coolly built on a giant worm and exploded. But, but then why do they, like, keep the magma dross around to ride on? Well, because that's, that's the deal. If your God, you didn't know that was a deal. If your God explodes, killing another type of creature, then that creature is bound to your species forever. That's how that works. I just, that's it. That's the age of Sigmar bylaws. Like, yeah. But you got, you got to explode to get the life dead. Apparently. I don't know. I just, I'm, I, it's, it's beyond me. No, I, he's the most boring story. Like, who cares? It doesn't, like, your army is boring and you as a God are boring. And I'm sorry, but this is the way it is. Uh, you're right, though, that Goatrek is a cool character. Like, I didn't think that they would actually do fun stuff with Goatrek, because I generally am not a fan of bringing dead old world people back into the age of Sigmar. But actually, Goatrek has had some, some quite interesting stories as he rolls around in the age of Sigmar. And so I think that, you know, he is certainly the inheritor of what this God represents, you know, thematically uh, narratively. And um, the, and he is actually a compelling character. So fine. Eventually just promote that guy all the way up. So like the question to me is like, it seems that Goatrek, so either he is a God or he's not. I mean, he's, he seems not to be, I'll say, by all accounts of what we have in the story. Sure. Sure. And that's fine. Then Grimnear's probably just dead. And we can be okay with that. Sure. Because God can die. And yet it seems like the trajectory we're on is that in fact, no, they, maybe they can't die, but they can be like just like Nagash is, you know, discombobulated. Um, for, for eons at a time that that's probably what's happened to Grimnear. It's just, he's not trained in reforming his body. I don't know. I just, it's one of the stories that like it's just not, it's not something that I can relate with. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, the fact that Goatrek gets to be, again, it's, it's, as I mentioned, it has nothing to do with power because Goatrek is outrageously powerful. Right. So like he is, he is a Superman within the realm of this, this. Yes. Within the age of Sigmar. Like he's, he is quite very much Superman, right? Unstoppable by nearly anything that isn't a God. He's probably closer to Wolverine. I have Wolverine can't kill like, like Goatrek can kill. Goatrek can punch a hole in most of the gods. So that's, you know, but, but, but Goatrek has plot armor like Wolverine does. Sure. Sure. But my point is that like, you know, so power alone doesn't define the ability to be interesting, right? Because Goatrek is fascinating and does have cool stories and, you know, interesting associations with other characters that he gets and stuff like that. He's got another new novel coming out soon, which looked pretty cool. Him against Gets, going against some Gets, which I feel bad for the Gets. I hope they've got all the nets. They get a lot of nets. I saw that and I was like, oh. Yes. Goatrek and Getslayer. Next episode. Why are there no more goblins in the age of Sigmar? What happened to all the goblins? What was the, Tom, was it, is it a Dark Son story of the Slayers? It is, right? Of like the, this is a Dark Son thing, right? Where there was in like, in the proto era of Dark Son, there were like individual beings that chose to go slay all, like to commit genocide, like to kill everything of one particular species. So, you know, like one of them picked Pixies and one of them picked this. And that's why some of these races aren't present in Dark Son because some of them were actually successful and just wiped out the entire race. You know? Yes. It's why you don't have gnomes. Yeah. Why there's no gnomes in Dark Son is because the one who was responsible for slaying all the gnomes succeeded, right? Right. That's what I think of when I see Getslayer. I'm like, oh God, what's the end of this road? Like how many Gets? It's just all of them. All of them. All of them. Because what he learned is that if he just goes into one loon shrine, they're all connected. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Just found his way into one and that's it. That's it. Yeah, because like those loon shrines are on every battlefield that he can just pop out of. He can fight in all the battles ever and kill all the Gets at the same time. Yeah. Absolutely. The goblins go to call reinforcements out of the loon shrine and just go track pops out and starts rolling up on him like Charles Bronson in Deathwish. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Here we go. Next up. Let's talk Gordrak. I didn't do, I did not grab. Gordrak is no more a God than Gordrak is. Yeah. So I picked him because I thought, because he is, he's definitely not a God. You're absolutely right. Gordrak is not. He is the fist of Gork, right? And he's certainly filling that sort of avatar role, right? And I picked him instead of actually putting in Gorka Morka just so, like I, because I couldn't, again, find a good picture of Gorka Morka. Gorka Morka is the God. Right. Absolutely the case. Just again, largely not appearing in the story, like narratively Gorka Morka is fairly uninteresting. He has some, you know, he has some cool stuff when he was palling around with Sigmar back in the age of myth and they got into a big wrestling match for 12 days and 12 nights. And then, you know, he, Sigmar said, okay, Gorka Morka, you know, you and I are buds now after they, after they, they had their like moment from Predator or whatever, you know, when they, they did that. And he said, okay, go, go tame and kill all the God beasts, right? And Gorka Morka was like, great, I'll go punch big things, right? And so that's what he did. And you know, you just suck up his entire narrative. And that's it. That's the whole story. Like, I can tell the whole story of Gorka Morka like that, right? That's why I didn't really, it's okay, fine, whatever. Gordrak though, has been interesting and seems like he's primed to do more interesting things. I mean, is it though? Okay. What does he want to do? Punch big things? Yeah, sure. But he's trying to punch very specific big things. Sigmar Archeon. Sure. Headbutt Archeon. Like, I just, like, he's thoroughly, he is as uninteresting to me as Grimnear is. Okay. Because it's just simply like, okay, you want to punch things. Cool. Gortrak, you want to kill things. Do it, man. Like, I'm more, let's say he ends up being successful and knocks down Excelsius. Is he more interesting to you or not? Nope. None. Zero. Okay. So guess what? He just did something that a God beast could do. Sure. Sure. Well, he specifically used a big God beast head to do it if he does it. Sure. Right. But that's what I'm saying. Like, I just, he is, he's just another spoiler that doesn't seem to have real agency. He's just a force of nature. Okay. I'm actually okay with that. I don't disagree with you. One of the problems with all of the destruction forces is that almost all of them have no pathos to them. Yeah. Yep. If he explodes to defeat a big worm, will he be more interesting? Yes, absolutely, of course. Everybody knows that the road to interesting is to explode while fighting giant worms. Just look at Dune. Isn't that that, isn't that the whole point of that story? Um, the, no, I mean, look, the problem with destruction as a whole is that, yeah, they just don't have any pathos. Like, they are all raw, we're angry, we break stuff. Right. That's that's it. I've just told the entire destruction narrative. Right. Yep. You know, probably the only exception is some of the like BCR stuff, which actually got kind of interesting in the nature of their fight with, with the Everwinter and stuff like that. But I mean, again, that's not a God related story. Um, right. So much of destruction is just so like amorphous. The re, how do I want to say this? They have all the character of your average hurricane plowing into the Gulf Coast or a tornado tearing through a town in northwest Ohio. Right. Like I don't look at that story and go, wow, that hurricane had some really interesting character. Like it accomplished stuff. It flattened the city. It destroyed a lot of homes. It hurt a lot of people. There's no motivation there. Right. Right. And this is back to our conversation about agency. There's no, there's never any real agency in destruction forces. There's just back, but there's not agency. Yes. And this is where I feel like I don't think that that necessarily has to be part of what destruction is all about. It's not like built into the nature and like, you know, I've seen some people saying like, well, part of the problem is the grand alliances and stuff like that in the comments. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Right. And, but, but I don't think that that's a necessary and sufficient component. Right. Oh, that's scathe just said it so well. Destruction is a headline, not a story. Wow, is that well and succinctly put. Scave. To me, this isn't a necessity though. Right. Like when they put out the big sons of behemoth, they could have had them have intelligence and like be on about stuff and trying to accomplish things and like have plots and, and, you know, more than just like, oh, we tried to smash ghosts and then we got scared of ghosts and couldn't smash ghosts and then we got confident again and now we can smash ghosts again. Right. Like this is the level of storytelling we're dealing with here. So like what if destruction rather than wanting to just raise everything was more of a not my backyard type of mentality. Sure. Like they had their territory and it's wild and untamed and they don't want you in it. Like if they took ownership of stuff in some way. Right. Right. Right. That it's simply about like it's a like it's it is a territorial like and it's not so like maybe this maybe this is the articulation civil like order is about building up. Right. Yeah, sure. Sure. Okay. Maybe destruction is the antithesis in the sense that it's it's it's not about building up for building up sake. It's about building up because it's bigger than yours. Sure. And so sometimes that means like I make mine bigger than yours just by bringing yours down. Yeah. Oh, we lost Tom. He'll be back in a minute. I'll keep talking. Somebody said the or supposing local planning permission changes at their town council. Yes, indeed. You know, somebody had said in here somewhere that that if you were king for a day, how would you give Gordran character? I you know, I don't know that you can. I'm not sure that he's ever going to be fully interesting or invested. But I'll say like when I made the narrative behind, you know, my iron jaws and my boss on maw crusher, you know, I had him raised by humans and he thinks in a tribe and, you know, like has cunning and tries to make plans and was friends with KO because he realized that they could transport his people around, right? Like he liked fighting and certainly was still an orc and knew that and to maintain his power, he had to give his boys good scraps. But at the same time, he had, you know, his own plans and things he wanted to accomplish and stuff that he was trying to achieve, right? Besides just that is besides just Hey, there's a thing over there. I want to knock that thing down. And I think that's too often what a lot of destruction falls into is just Hey, there's that thing over there. I want to go knock it down. Hopefully Tom will be back in a minute. We'll keep going. There he is. Nice. He'll be back in a minute. He's just trying to figure out his laptop, because Tom's bad. All right, but let's keep going while we're waiting, while we're waiting on on Dr. Tom to return. Let's get into this guy, shall we? So Malarian. This guy is going to be very interesting. Okay, sorry, I'm just time stamping all the God conversation here. This is pretty much the only picture we have of Malarian. He, we got one, we've gotten very little mention of this dude, other than the fact that he is part of the, you know, he's the he has the he has actual power over Ugu. And, you know, he seems like he is in some way combined with his with his dragon in this artwork. And he has all of these sort of shadow demons that work for him and stuff like that. But he has, you know, sort of plots and plans within plans and plots. And I think, narratively, we don't, there's not enough to say, honestly, what he's all about, because he has so little influence in the world in any tactile way we can measure. Like there's been little stories here and there of like him gifting the arena to easier so he can spy, you know, through the arena. You know, we get stuff like that. But for the most part, he is the backgroundiest of background character. Yes, Malarian is the new name for Malaketh, the old king of the, what was the Dark Elves? Somebody asked that question. The reason he looks like this is because apparently he, when he was remade, he was remade with his dragon. So, so he and his dragon are like one being now. Hence the shape of his head. And as you can see, like his body coming down and having that dragon shape like he used to. He clearly was the actual power within within Ulgu, not Marathi. And it's notable that in the story, as soon as Marathi actually became a god, she left, right? Like she, she left Ulgu. So she becomes a god and then the very next day, basically, narratively, I wasn't actually the next day, but you understand what I mean. The next day, she shows up in, in Anvilgard, right? In Akshi, a realm that does not have an active god owning it right now. It should be noted, but is, you know, much more a realm of like conflict. The realms that seem to have active gods owning them aren't really the ones where we tend to focus the story as much. So like Illariel and Gairan, the realm of life, or although she does, there's a fair amount there. She's probably the one exception because she is so reticent to get involved. But like Tyrion and Teclis, which we'll talk about in a little while, with, you know, Hais and Malarion with Ulgu, Sigmar with Aesir and Nagash with Shaiish. But then you've got kind of the more wild ones, right? Um, so I think Malarion is the one who, if they, I almost wonder if they, they don't know what to do with this guy and with him, narratively. Like, I think we will eventually get a fig for him. Uh, I think like much like we've gotten one for Teclis and Illariel and Rathi and I'm sure we'll eventually get a, a fig for Malarion as well. But the, I almost, I almost don't want to see his fig simply because he, okay, there's this sort of narrative challenge that you can run into when you have a mystery and, or, or a character's coolness defined by being mysterious, right? So Tom mentioned Wolverine earlier, right? How old was Wolverine? When was he born? How old is he? What's his background? For like the longest time, it was a sort of unknown thing, right? And Wolverine was just this enigma. He was just this character and where he was from was a subject of much discussion, right? And then they ended up writing the story of his origin where you learn that he was like a little Lord Fauntelroy up in, you know, British Columbia or whatever. And it just wasn't that interesting at all. And it was like, oh, well now that I actually know what the story is, it's not as interesting as when it was just whatever I could imagine it to be and everybody had their own version of it, right? And so I worry about that same thing with Malarian. I worry about the situation where there's nothing that can sort of live up to his hype, to his level of like, oh, I'm the shadow master manipulation, the Lord of shadow demons and secrets, all of my plans within plans can never be challenged and then it's like, then he comes out and he's just a fig and he just has an army and you know, okay, yeah, cool. You've got shadow demons and shadow dragons and stuff like that. And he's just a thing, right? Once he's become real, he can't be as interesting almost, right? Because when he's not defined, he can be anything. And so I think that's part of what can add to his sort of mystery and general interest, right? Is the fact that he is ill-defined at the moment. I'll say, should he get a fig? Yes, obviously, when do I think he'll get a fig? A long time from now. I'm pretty sure that he's not going to have a fig or this army isn't going to release until many years. I don't see this coming next year. I may be 2022, like a while, a while. So, you know, but we'll see. I'm interested in ultimately what they do decide to do with him, but I think he'll be the last of the gods, of this type of gods that we see. Just because I think that he'll have the biggest challenge of them trying to figure out what they want to do with him. Yeah, if it was like 2032 or if we got through almost a whole another edition, like if we got to third edition and then we went almost a whole another release cycle, I wouldn't be surprised. Not at all. I'm just texting Tom here. Yeah, there you go. We'll bring him back in. It'll probably, his audio will probably be bad because I think he'll have to join on his phone, but that's all right. His laptop broke. Isn't that always the way. So hopefully he'll join in here. Let me catch up here with my comments. Make sure there's nothing else. If they did a model of that picture you got there, he'd be amazing. I keep in mind he has a big weird snake body that comes back behind this, but yeah, I agree. This is kind of a cool thing. Shadow Demon figs would be so dope, though. I definitely agree with that. I definitely want to see some Shadow Demons. I think back to Shadow Demon and the D&D cartoon, the best minion of all time. So there you go. He went 26 episodes, the party never knew he existed. That is a great minion right there. I wonder if New Realms can be created as in the space between Ulu and Heishworst, Slaneshes. Yeah, I mean they always create New Realms whenever they need to. So there's always like in between spaces. Think of it like there are eight planets in the in the solar system, right? But there can be lots of little little moons and asteroids and comet sailing through and whatever else they want. All right, he's like 4,000 points and doesn't have an army. Yeah, I would support that. Okay, he has a big weird snake body. Yeah, that happens a lot in Warhammer. There you go. Hey, Tom's back. Let's see if we can hear you. Yeah, you sound fine. Sorry. I'm on my phone because my internet, my computer, like blew up. I don't know what happened. So we'll find out later. So that's just where we're at. No, you're fine. Welcome back. Malarian is the cast God is your. I have already opined on him a bunch. Anything you want to say about Malarian? He's just a big question mark right now, and we just don't know anything about him. And that's exciting to a point. I really hope that like something, so the corruption that I have espoused with regard to the luminous, my hope is that like what I have proposed is internal for the luminous. I hope is external for Malarian. Sure. Yep. And so I think the same types of things that I have suggested with the corruption that's happened from slanash and all that with Malarian, I'm really hoping or with the luminous. I'm really hoping that they do something similar, but on the flip side and like the inverted mirror of it basically for Malarian. I just want to sweep army of shadow demons and I'll be happy shadow demon dragons. Let's do it. It checks out. There you go. All right. Speaking of this family, let's talk about his mom. The one that won't be denied. Yes, indeed. So Marathi our most recent entry in the pantheon having recently achieved godhood in broken realms Marathi. Yep. Is she narratively the most interesting god? Oh, by far. There's no question. Not even like one. She has this whole book that was super good and actually interesting and had her doing cool things and showed pathos and action and activity and character and had her making poor choices and also interesting choices like some good, some bad. She's had clear agency. Yep. Like she's done things in the world. We know from the beginning we've known what she's about. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Like the moment when she confronts an Aryan soul is cool, but at the same time so is the moment when she's like Hey, look, I'd never be cool. Let's just talk this out. We're good. Right. Right. She's like, we get we cool here. Take this thing back. I'm sorry. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Here's your lantern. And I got you some bonus souls. Those are just for you. Those are some bonus nachos. You have those. Right. Sorry. I mean, she didn't actually say sorry. Nor would she ever say sorry. Right. But regardless, the point being that like she's like, my bad, you know, we took care of that though. We're good now. Right. Right. Exactly. And you know, Volternus was like, okay, fine. I mean, let's do this. So I think like he saw the power. Sure. He clearly understood what had just happened. He's not stupid. I think is what you're saying there. Right. Right. Yeah, I mean, Marathi is definitely the most narratively interesting. She's also pound for pound right now, like from a game rule perspective, she's got to have the best game rules like pound for point. Yeah, I think that's probably true. Right. He's super like mechanically, mathematically, she's, you know, like ability uniqueness. She is pound for pound. She's just knocking it out of the park. Yeah. Like super fun to play up there with like Archeon in playing, you feel you definitely feel like you're you're piloting a god. Really unique and interesting because she has her two forms, cool, cool story of why she has two forms and cool play on the tabletop in both her forms. Right. Right. Big monster Marathi is scary as all get out and will do work. Baby Marathi is a Marathi Kane, she's actually called is fantastically good at what she needs to do, which is, you know, be an awesome caster and a backline director of the troops and stuff like that. So whether it's like Marathi is to me just a great success of what happens when you write a really good story and then make really good rules to reflect the really good story. Right. And you get this wonderful like Melvin kind of alignment of everything feeling like it's it's banging on all cylinders. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I'll be interested to see where they go with her. Did you have a chance to read the short story, the most recent one that just came out with her forces, the IDK and the doc rolling around and like destroying other small cities and raiding things together? Oh, yeah, that was the most recent story just kind of came out today, but it's not, they haven't published it yet or whatever. You know what I mean? Like they sent it out in a letter and they'll put it up on the site in a few days, however that all works. No, I haven't, but of course they would. Yeah. Yeah, they're in. They're in like Flynn together for now. I think it's going to end in heartache and loss for the IDK, but hey, whatever. I mean, that's what she does. It's going to be a question of how many of the Elvish gods get to get to abuse the IDK by the time we're all done. So yeah, I agree. Oh, now we've got a beer bottle in frame, Tom. Your camera moved. Sorry. I'm trying to, trying to troubleshoot this, get me back on normal screen. Yeah, you're fine. You're fine right now. It's all good. All right. Cool. Yeah, so Marathi, awesome, big success. Let's see more like her. Give a L'Oreal the Marathi treatment and we've got a winner. We got a winner, winner chicken dinner. In her story and what she's doing and what's going on in her life and give her like goals and dreams and things she's willing to mess up or accomplish or fail or succeed. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Yes, I agree. Just do that. Yeah. Okay, well, you know it's time. We weren't going to, of course, not discuss this big boy, right. So Nagash, big pop in Nagash. Yeah, the Lord of Death ruler of Shaish. I could not care less about this guy. I find him to be so narratively boring. I thought that boring. Absolutely. Here's the deal. His mortars, he needs to explode and disintegrate into a hundred different pieces and he's going to be a mortar. The mortars are warring to become the new avatar of Nagash. Sure. And to put a bit of Nagash whispering in each one. Sure. Like Arkan is the true believer, right. And so they're like, and so make the identity of Nagash like Rome. Yep. Where Rome is in everybody, right. Yes. But it's a bunch of like, but it's a bunch of like functionally city states, which are the like the phyton of the mortars. And only by unifying can like, which they'll never do because it's perpetual civil war, right. I don't know. I just make it make death interesting. It's funny because this guy's had so much narrative attention, right. Like this is not like a case of Illariel or, or, you know, some of the other gods who mentioned it. It's static now. You know, I mean, well, yeah, but this guy's had a lot of story to it, right. Right. His whole black pyramid thing. He's the one who gave us endless spells. Right. The problem with Nagash is that ultimately his plans are stupid. Okay. Like, let me see if I can unpack what I mean by that because I know there's a lot of Nagash stands in the audience who are going to really hate what I'm saying here. Okay. Yep. I can't imagine the thumbs down on this episode because, because of us talking about these various gods and people really get behind these kind of these, these, these characters emotionally. True. By the way, if you're watching right now hit like, I see a couple people already hit dislike, show them that you don't like that and you hit like. And if you think I'm wrong with Nagash, you can put that in the comments too. By all means, tell me why I'm wrong because I would, I'd love to hear it. Nagash is, is on one hand he's interesting because he really has had so unbelievably much focus, right. We're talking about the major motivator of AOS too. Like he put the story in motion. He gave us endless spells by screwing up, but still by doing that, he built his Black Pyramid. Yep. He, he rebuilt his Black Pyramid for the third time, fourth time I can think of. Yes. It's, it's what he does over and over again. We just like to call the Death Star. Sure. He, yes. Yes. Like the empire in Star Wars, he just keeps rebuilding that pyramid. Man, if people keep blowing it up one of these days though, it's going to stick. One of these days it's going to work for him. It's a little bit bigger. Make it planet-sized. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, like the guy clearly has goals. It's not that we don't know what he, what he wants, right. We, we do. What he wants is to kill all life in the realms, right. And to have a perfect oneness of everything under him. A pur-, like a completely perfect, unthinking, unfeeling, endless horde of life, or sorry of unlife, right, of just everybody being dead. Under domination and control of all of existence. Right. Exactly. Uh, a ruthless terrorist organization bent on ruling the world. Like his plans make as much sense as Cobra to me. Okay. Although he could actually accomplish them. Sure. Sure. Uh, like that's not narratively fun. You know what I mean? Like the Cascades have some crazy plans and certainly they're the ends of their, their existence. Isn't like a fun world, okay? Right. But like we can look at what happens when the Chaos Gods win. Right. Right. You get war cry. That's pretty cool. Like there's a bunch of dudes who dress up in like metal and feathers and wear snakes. And Mad Max outfits. And then like apparently when Chaos wins, everybody puts on their Mad Max outfits and has a punch up in some kind of arena. Like that is, that is the end game of Chaos. Because in the eight points, like before Catacross showed up. Right. That was what it was. It was all Chaos all the time. They won. It was their realm. They owned it. Everybody there was subservient to them. That was a Chaos realm. Right. Right. And it just had internecine like anger and frustration and thwarting one another and perpetual intrigue and, and. It became Thunderdome. It was awesome. Right. We built a whole game around it. It was cool. Yeah. Right. Yeah. People are cutting off their own faces and wearing them on their belts. Like man, this world is nuts, but it's interesting. Right. And for Nagash, his is like a, is like the loading screen. Yes. That's exactly right. If Nagash wins, it's just a perpetual loading screen. That's it. Nothing interesting ever happens. It's just like, it's just spinning forever. Right. Nothing ever changes. Nothing ever gets built. Nothing interesting happens. Like, you know, there's a moment in one of the stories where, from where it's actually from Slanesh's point of view. Yeah. Where Slanesh sort of sees what Nagash is, is planning and thinks about the world. The whore. Where Nagash wins. This sort of horrible world lacking in, in emotion and excess in, in, in desire. Yeah. Right. Because ultimately even the, the mortars are just slaves to Nagash's will. Right. Like they have their own pseudo personalities, but if Nagash says do something, they have to do it. Right. They don't actually have any true free will. They're just extensions of him. Like if he says this is what you're going to do, if he shows up and flexes his fist or, or doesn't even show up, like if he just thinks it, right, they, they must comply. In the end, they are nothing more than vestiges of him. Right. Like sometimes I won't be thinking and my finger is tapping. Yes. Yeah. Right. But if I consciously think about it for a moment, I can stop my finger tapping. That's just Manfred and Nefarada and everybody else, right? They have their own tics. They have their own leg capping machinations, but all that is just extensions of who Nagash is. Right. Exactly. Even Kanakros, who's, uh, yeah. Totally. Who's like interesting, uh, as a character, certainly, is still just an extension of Nagash, right? They all are. Right. That's why I love your idea. Like the idea of Nagash should have been the one that exploded fighting a giant worm because if all of the mortars were parts of him and trying to like, I think you're absolutely right, that would have been a much more interesting story. Like who's the true heir? There's the Superman. There's the, the, the, uh, the four Superman or rise, the Superman story that we need, right? We need the rise of the Nagash's. We live in the World War Vandal Savage one. Right. Like that's the, like that is the, that is the World War Nagash wins, where everything is just boring. Right. And quiet. And still. Yep. Um, because he wouldn't need the mortars to be executed or anything anymore. He wouldn't need anything. He would just be sitting there content. Like that's it. That would be the end of all ambition. Right. In the world where he wins. It's like Daddy Nagash. Like he is, you know what, he's like the dad of the mortal realms that just doesn't want to do anything. He wants to hit his like vegetable state and go sit on the couch. Right. And there at the TV. Yep. And one engage with the work. Right. Absolutely. But he has to get there. And so he just has to murder everything in existence first. Yes. Yes. Uh, let's talk about him in the game. Uh, he's obviously another big and very expensive model. He's also clocking it around the 800 points. Uh, at various points in time, he's, I think he's had more swings and roundabouts than any of the other. Man, he has been all over the place. Yep. From like basically unplayable to auto include and everywhere in between. Right. Yep. Yep. Um, and part of the problem of why he keeps swinging around so wildly. Yep. Is because he shows up in multiple armies in the wrong way. Right. Yep. Archeon, we get like this one remake of him and then he can, we can just drop him into other armies and he's fine. He just works. Right. Yep. Yep. Like I can just put Archeon into my slanesh army and I'm ready to go. Right. Right. Now, gosh, every time we do a new death book, we have to get a new version of his scroll. Right. We're in, we have to make his rules fit to the current conception of whatever that army is. Yep. Right. Yep. And he just never perfectly aligns. Like what we need is the generic version of him that shows up and is just like ready to work with anything where you, because he should have like five armies he can drop into. Well, the problem is the piecemeal design. Like the problem is, is that he was designed in a world where a lot of these other things didn't exist. And like a lot of factions are done. So to say, like chaos, the gods are done. And so when Archeon got his new scroll, like he was designed in such a way that he could slot into everything that he's going to need to slot into. The same cannot be said of Nagash. We're still waiting on that vampire army. Whatever that vampire army is going to be, we're still waiting on it. We're still waiting on Nagash to like make a showing and night on. Sure. Like that should be the way he works. He should just have like a perma green scroll that works with anything. And you can choose to drop him into OBR or legions or night haunt or FEC or new vampire army. Imagine a world where you could simply play Nagash in a night haunt army. Right. Sure. Like I just like, I can't even conceptualize because like, because they don't have any heroes over seven wounds. Sure. And actually like put him in the middle of that army. Oh. And by the way, he is full of ghosts. So it's not like it's a huge stretch. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think a lot of night haunt players would love to see Nagash show up. Like again, they're led by a mortar who is just an extension of him. What is going on here? The problem is we don't have this like perma green keyword, like where Nagash would just show up and have the keyword for every army and just be ready to go. And that's how he should have been done in the same way that when Archeon shows up, he's got Slenesh, Korn, Zeench, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like we mentioned earlier, right? Right. He needs to have OCR. And like stop making his abilities tied to the specific army. He gains all spells of the OCR, bone reaper, lore, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, no, stop that. Stop writing that. Okay. Like that's what's killing you because now, now it's like, okay, now he works here, but he doesn't work over there anymore. Right. Right. You keep doing this. Like just give him his own spell list that he walks around with. He has all his own books. Right. He should just have like, these are the six spells of Nagash in his freaking books. Yeah. And they should be epitomies of those other things. Right. Right. You know, and like, and he also can absorb spells from people near him on the battlefield, right? Like, you know, standard magic, Domway. Right. You back four in everything that he can cast just because of whatever he armies him. He has all the appropriate keywords. His, his, he has a mega scroll because it has like six spells written on it. Who cares? Fine. You know, we've got mega scrolls. It's okay. You're playing a God. He'll feel like it then. Right. He still cast eight spells. He's Mr. Machine Gun. Like the solution of the fact that the probably best way to play in a Nagash is just to arcane bolt eight times. That doesn't feel right. Right. I mean, I'm not crazy there. It's quite the machine gun. It is. But like that just doesn't feel like that should be how the God of Death is playing. Yeah. Just a thought. I don't disagree. Uh, you know, so like if he just has his own big spell lore, he brings with him. Right. And he still like if he shows up in an army, he still gets to take their spells. Right. Right. Like he can still show up and grab the spells out of the appropriate book and get one or two where all I don't give a crap, right? Like whatever. Like we've got to manage this to some degree. So it's not overwhelming. Yeah. But the point is, is that like then no matter what he's in, he's whole. The problem is they keep relying on the book to finish the scroll. Yeah. Whereas Archeon's whole. Right. Like he's he's a done deal. He should be. Yeah. So to me, uh, I hope that at some point here, I'm assuming in March when we get vampires. Yep. Um, that we're going to yet again get another bite at this apple of fixing Nagash. And maybe this is the time we nail it. I mean, that's a profound thought. Look, we've got the template. Right. Archeon was out there. We've got the template. Just do that. Yeah. Make that be a thing. Yep. Okay. Cool. Uh, Sigmar. Here we go. Give me a second. Okay. I think Tom's going to rejoin with his laptop. Well, I talk about Sigmar for a moment. Oh, there you go. You're back. That was fast. That was fast, Tom. Are you back? There we go. All right. Sigmar should never have rules. I love the fact that he is clearly the most powerful of all of the good guy gods. He is the founder of the realms. He is the founder of the feast, as it were, you know, the survivor of the old world who clung to the core of the old world has the protected heavens. Sigmar is awesome. Uh, and I think that obviously, even though you don't tend to see him act too much outside of the age of myth, um, he obviously has had a huge footprint on the world through creating the stormcast and founding the cities and, you know, really being a bastion of civilization, drawing the pantheon together. Uh, you know, I think Sigmar works as this sort of Zeus-like figure, right? Flawed, but, uh, but awesome. I mean, that's the bottom line. He is the closest thing we have to the chaos gods on the order side. Right. Exactly. Yes. He's, you know, is he up at that level? No. He's clearly still not a chaos god level power, but he is, you know, but he is, but he did frightening. He did this other BS that these other people are doing, like even Nagash and Marathi, like millennia ago. Right. Like he went and played in the realms and, you know, hit a bunch of stuff with a hammer a long time ago. And he's like, I'm done with that. I'm not going to do that anymore. Right. So. It's funny because playing skig, where I'm playing a follower of Sigmar, you know, in the soulbound game. Uh, yep. Yep. The reality is I do feel like certainly it's part of it's just like the normal way that I roleplay where I'm very into my character and, you know, that sort of thing. And I do think from their point of view. But when I'm playing skig and when I'm thinking about it from that perspective, I'm like, yeah, my God is better than all the rest of you. Like that's not in question here. You know, this, like you following Marathi, like that's cute. I'm not saying your gods aren't powerful. They are. Right. But I'm the one who's following the real God. They're not Sigmar powerful. Exactly. Like, yes. Like that's neat that you think Hades is cool or that you're a child of Persephone. I'm on Zeus over here. Okay. Right. I've got the father of the gods. Right. You're all like, enjoy your children gods, right? But I got big daddy. Right. And there's a sense in which like none of the other gods have created vast armies of immortal warriors. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty good measure. I mean, or like have an entire realm that it's completely chaos free. Yes. I mean, other than the Skaven in the walls. Sure. But, you know. Sure. As chaos free as anything can be in the mortal realms. How about that? Sure. Sure. I mean, what I will say is that like if there is a greater God, he certainly sits in that space. Yeah. And for better or worse, even though I hate to even say it this way, I think Nagash should sit in that space as well. He's probably the next level down, right? But he's clearly beneath. But he is. But yes. Right. Of all the existing, of the existing pantheons. You know, like we could do like a power ranking. That would be a fun thing. Joe, if you end up watching this, hey, whoa, do one of your little tier list power ranking things for the gods. I'll send him a note and tell him to do that on one of his Twitch streams. Yeah. I mean, because like, hypothetically, a Laurel should also be up there. Should be. But that's not reality. Right. No, definitely not. And maybe like when she gets her stuff together. I don't see Sigmar relying on a beetle. Even if it's a big beetle. Sigmar has thousands upon thousands of immortal warriors, not a beetle. And he gives away his hammer. Yes. He doesn't even need to wield it. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I, here's what I'll say, especially when you look at like the soulbound, uh, the soulbound like powers, you know, that you get the miracles you get, when you're rolling as a priest of Sigmar, you're like, you know, like, this is what it feels like to follow a real God. The rest of you people, your little tricks, those are cute. I'm going like the, just the stuff that you're capable of feels like you're worshipping the real God. That's all I'm saying. Sure. Sure. That's legitimate. Okay. I don't disagree. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, uh, we're just going to do both of these guys. I should have put them together into one picture because we're going to end out here on both of them. Uh, and that is T and T, their dynamite, T and T, and they'll lose pretty much every fight. That is Teclis and Tyrion. This is where we're going to end out. The brothers. Thank God. So obviously one of these gods we've seen, one of them we haven't, one is much more narratively involved than the other. Tyrion has been fairly, um, uh, reticent to be, be like sort of active in much of the story. He does show up. He talks in some of the, the stuff that has to do with, the other Elbish gods, like when he and Malerion and Marathi are talking. Um, but obviously Teclis is a huge player in the story. He was one of the worst characters, in the old world, and he continues to be one of the worst in the new world, as he continues to think himself too smart for his, too big for his own britches, and too smart for his own good. I mean, I'd love to tell you you're wrong, but I don't, I don't know that that's the case. I think he's like, I think he's a hashet follower now, and he just doesn't know it. Well, we're not talking about that guy, because he's not real. That's not a real God, sorry. And it is a real God. It's, but it's not though. And, um, because that army's not real, and the God's not real, and it just doesn't show up. So there you go. That's how that works. I mean, it's in the lore, but okay. So the, uh, I mean, it's like standing the worst. Like, if you're, if I'm making fun of people for, for following, you know, like weak gods, when, when we were talking about the existing pantheon, we've talked about trying to stand for a hashet. Well, congratulations. Enjoy the kids table, or whatever. Why don't you just go worship some dead God from the old world? Okay. Because that's basically what you're doing. Like, no, get out of here. At any rate, techless, here's what I'll say about techless. I actually think they've done really fun things with techless, narratively, in this. Like it's, it's fun to make fun of techless. Like he has agency. But absolutely. And what I like is that they actually have him make like choices that I think, well, it's kind of crappy, man. Like say making an entire race and then realizing that your work was flawed and then casting them down to die in an ocean. Right. Well, I'm pretty sure he wanted to destroy them and they, they fled and hit. Well, also, I don't remember what I think maybe Tyrion asked him to stay his hand or something like that. Like I don't remember exactly what the, yes, they did hide, but also I think Tyrion was like, just let him be or whatever. Something like that. I don't remember exactly what the story was. Yeah. I mean, he is flawed. Yes. And, and, and he's an interesting character. Yeah. Like joking aside of, ah, ah, ah, techless is the worst. It actually is his flaws that make him really cool, that make him actually compelling. Right. Right. Because he does very frequently make bad choices in the narrative. I mean, not always. I'm not, I'm not trying to, again, I'm dispatching with hyperbole. Yep. But like he will often make bad choices, be a bad guy. You know what I mean? Like he'll, he'll do things that are crappy that aren't sort of worthy of somebody of his stature or whatnot. Right. Yeah. And that's actually interesting because he is such a flawed character because he is haughty. He doesn't body a lot of what was the worst about the high elves. Right. Because he does make mistakes and then not blame himself or try to fix things. Right. Which the IDK is just one example. Ah, Yep. Like the, I think that's why he's actually kind of cool and I like him because if these people were all just sort of paragons of perfection, they actually wouldn't be interesting. Right. Right. It's their flaws that actually make them relatable and interesting. Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I know the last time I created a massive soul atrophy, pseudo sea dwelling race, I felt bad and then I cast them into, I threw mine into the desert, not the ocean, but you know, whatever, we make different choices. So what about him in the game? What do you think about Teclas in the game? I mean, he doesn't really feel like a god. Why so? What do you think? What do you, why? That's interesting. Unpack that for me. Why so? Because he's, because of the same reason, like it's defenses. Okay. That he's not defensive enough because he is, he is KO boat, killable or something, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you drop a KO boat on a Nagash, I mean, it can still go either way. Sure. The same with Arkeon. You do it on him and you're picking up that model. Sure. No, that's interesting. That's interesting that, defense is sort of part of it, right? Because part of what define, I think you hit on something there that I don't think is totally wrong. Now, obviously when we're piloting the gods, we're not, you know, it's assumed that these models aren't the god themselves necessarily, right? It's an aspect. The shard of their essence. Yeah, exactly, whatever. Yep. But some part of the gods is defined by their immortality, right? Like that's some, that has to be some part of what this means. And so when you play something in the game that's just really tough and very hard to kill and very hard to remove, you do have this different feeling than when you're just like, oh, he's a really good wizard. Like undoubtedly it's, he's an amazing wizard, right? Yeah, listen to the gods. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, that's interesting. I think from a balanced perspective, they did a pretty decent job with him because to make him so magical, I wonder if that answer would have been to up his defense a little, but make him like 800 points like Nagash. Right, like, but the problem is, is that because of the already high point values on the rest of the elves, that means you get like seven models. And so they would have had other, like other practical problems and concerns with like taking and holding objectives. I mean, at the end of the day, like I think they did an excellent, so I want to divorce two things we're talking about here. His godhoodness on the table and the design and balance. Sure, sure. They did an excellent job of designing and balancing it. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that he feels like I'm playing a god when I play him. I could see that. Yeah, okay. So now he, like he, he has a commanding presence magically. Yes. But there's a reason why they had to give him Selenar. Yeah, that's fair. I get it. I mean, it's the difference between Nagash and Allariel. Yeah. Allariel still has her beetle. Yeah, sure. Sure, sure. What is it with these elvish gods and bringing along pets? Because they're not really gods. Well, Marathi has no pet. She's good to go. She has her own pet. She's her own best friend. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. So let's talk Tyrion for a moment then. We'll wrap this up. Um, Tyrion obviously, I think Tyrion will be the next elvish god. We'll see. I think we'll see him before Malerion. Malerion. I agree with that. I don't know when. I've still probably a while. Like, again, I would put both of those elvish gods way out. So I'm saying like 2022 for him, probably. Yep. But I think you go Tyrion next. And I think you'll have the angel elves and all that stuff, as well as relying on the core troops of the Luminath that we've already seen. Yep. But does Tyrion get a pet? Does he have a friend? Or does he stand alone? Is he just a big angelic blind elf? No. So you go one of two ways with him. You make him a Michael-style arc angel. Sure. Just the biggest elf. Yep, the biggest elf. With a big playing blade. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or you give him his horse. Like a super horse? Yeah. Give it wings. And it is a pegasaur or whatever. Sure. Yeah, there you go. Pegasaur. Yeah, it's a Pegasus unicorn. It's Mithrand-y or whatever that his old mount was ascended to horse godhood. Horse godhood. And he has still and he has a beautiful flaming weapon. Sure. And a unicorn Pegasus mount. Okay. And then, or you give it six wings as well or whatever. And then all of the angel elves are like true angels. Like Sarah angel angels. Yeah, yeah. I mean I, you want to talk about what would be getting me to buy an elf army faster than you could, you could bat an eyelash. You wouldn't even finish that sentence and I'd have that whole army. But I'd just be, I'd just be sending money to people hoping that they would send me back elves. Yeah, a hundred percent. No, I do that. So, and like it's, it would be aesthetically different than everything else that's out there. It could, it could still call to some of the Phoenix imagery. Sure. So you could do like, you could do flaming wings on the angel elves. Sure. Or I swear, like, wings that are like dripping flame or ice. Sure. I would also like it if maybe they had eyes in them. Go, sure, go. Mix in just a little bit of Bible elves, but that's probably too zingy. Yeah. Like eyes and the wings. Yeah. Yeah. The problem is, is it probably is a little bit too zingy. I would love if instead they were all blind. Like, and what I mean by that is they all had like the, they, all of their eyes were wrapped. Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great idea. That would be sweet as all get out. Yes, yes. Like they don't, they don't need their eyes. Justice is blind. Sure. No, I, I, I get where you're going and I like it. Yes. 100 percent. I am with that. So I don't know. I like, I, and that's all assuming he gets a God model. Maybe Turian doesn't, I mean, let me say this, of all the Elven gods, he's the one I expect to find on the battlefield. Yeah. I mean, that's, he's going to get a model. Right. Like he just will. Yeah. The fact that we've got a L'Oreal, Marathi, and Teclas so far says we'll eventually get the other two. Like we just can't stop making Elvish gods show up on the table. So there you go. But we can't seem to get a Dwarven one at all. Well, yep. And, you know, I don't think any of us miss it. There we go. Stop exploding, fighting giant worms. All right. At any rate, there we go. That's the discussion. We're all done. Can we briefly talk about Godbeast? No. This is too much. Also, because it's very late and I'm about to die. Okay. That's fair. I accept it. Yes. We will talk about Godbeast in a future show. I really, I do want to do a whole Godbeast focused episode on some of the history of some. Because they're the Titans. Yes. Absolutely. And you've got a lot of really interesting ones that have showed up in the stories and have been very relevant. Both in friendly ways or antagonistic ways. So I just, I don't want to short change them. That's the point. That's fair. That's fair. All right, folks. Well, very good. Thank you all very much for watching. As always, really appreciate it. Don't forget to hit like down there. Really appreciate it. As I thought, we've gotten a lot of dislikes already, but that's okay. Some people don't love when you, when you make fun of their, their God that they really like. And, you know, that's going to be the nature of the thing. So hit like, subscribe, if you haven't already. Tom, thank you, brother. As always, appreciate it. And as always, to all of you out there, we thank you so much for watching. If you've got your own ideas for which gods are the best and disagree with any of our opinions or want to back any of them up, drop it down in the comments. As always, we'll see you next Wednesday.