 So can we then maybe we can just talk about the procedure how we are right now working With this new kind of program here in the Association of Africans living in Vermont who have been kind enough to give us space and the technology to do these Events, but we what the attempt is to do this is also sponsored by the Caroline Fund and by the by a new institution Which we are trying to instigate here in Burlington called Vermont Institute of community and international involvement and that's the board members are some of them are here Beth is one of the board members Robin as well Lou Andrews as well and me and the Caroline Fund is a Foundation that was started when one of my daughters was murdered actually in a in a domestic violence situation And we put this fund together for two purposes to help women and their families with a small crisis financial crisis, and we also have Increasingly have an educational mission as well to try to educate people about violence in general And about the rights of citizens and the rights of defendants And that's what we're doing today, and I want to thank the African Association For sponsoring this and the Attorney General's office and the Caroline Fund and also Vicki for Helping to create a program where we could at least talk about the law And the effects of the law and how to understand it one thing. I'm a lawyer My name is Sandy Barrett. I've been a lawyer since for a very long time, and I've noticed More and more how very few people even understand what the law is what it purports to be and how it is implemented I was especially interested in the hearings of the recent appointment of Judge Amy Comey Barrett to the Supreme Court. I watched all those hearings I happened to find them interesting in the legal discussions. Most people were very upset about that I would say but I found them really fascinating and that's one of the reasons that last week or two weeks ago We had a whole talk here about the US Supreme Court And given to us by one of the Attorney Generals I noticed that Julio Thompson from the Attorney General's office has just joined us and Okay, hi. Thank you for coming Julio. Did you have any difficulties getting in? No, it was just a matter of I'm just logging in and setting up the video. So great. Thanks. Thank you for coming and again Thank your whole office for helping to set this up And so I will introduce Julio as I mentioned the reason for this talk is to try to give some education About what people should do when they're stopped by the police and what they have to do and what they don't have to do Because many many people get stopped by the police particularly people brown and black people and in Vermont they that has been reported to be escalating and and has escalated for African-Americans in particular, but of course also new Americans And immigrants so take it away Julio. You are from the Civil Rights Division, right of the Attorney General's office, right? So nice to see you. So I anyway the floor is it's hard to speak is yours Hi, everybody. How are you this evening? I hope you're doing okay thumbs up So I'll just briefly describe who I am and what I do in the Attorney General's office So we have different divisions in the office that enforce different laws We have a unit within the Attorney General's office. That's called the Civil Rights unit I'm the director of that unit. We enforce a number of laws that relate to the protection of Vermoners Which would include for example hate crimes cases some people Call our office and have questions about what? Particularly when they're confronting speech either in person or online what speeches is criminal and what's not I Also teach the the hate crimes class at the Vermont police academy and I've done that twice a year There are two academies per year. So for last Roughly I think maybe going on ten years now any officer who's Been working for ten ten years or fewer Vermont has at least been through And it's gone to the Vermont Academy has gone through my hate crimes class We also do some follow-up training with prosecutors or law enforcement officers about Vermont's hate crime laws. We also enforce Vermont's laws that relates to employment discrimination which can various types of harassment We do not when people have complaints about the police under Vermont law The the legislature gave the authority to investigate Compliance of discrimination by police to the Vermont Human Rights Commission Not to our office And so when we receive those Those inquiries if someone says I think I was racially profiled or I think I was stopped or searched because of Who I am or what I look like and it was unfair We'll usually direct them to the Human Rights Commission, which can you know take the complaint and If if there looks like there may be a violation of the laws against discriminating against Vermont or sin Then the Human Rights Commission would take that But we do deal with a lot of the constitutional rights of Vermonters that that come into play When you're interacting with with the police so We're involved all the time in cases or investigations regarding whether Individuals have the right to free speech in certain circumstances when they have the rights remain silent When they have the right to be free from unreasonable searches by the government as well as It and no less important but often not discussed in this context Amendment, which is the 14th amendment, which is the right to equal protection under the laws so I Myself in the civil rights unit and probably Oh gosh probably right now and we're on 10 or 15 federal lawsuits that are asserting the constitutional rights of Vermonters as well as other Americans that might come up in different contexts such as Immigration so We were we were part of the successful DACA lawsuit that the Supreme Court decided And in favor of the dreamers earlier this year We were also successful before the Supreme Court in the lawsuit to challenge Efforts to place immigration related questions on the census which we knew would depress participation In the census which has a direct effect on Vermonters not only in terms of political representation, but also in terms of All sorts of valuable information including public health information, you know where our seniors are Where our young children are it has effect on federal dollars and the like so We've been doing this work for a long time And you know today's topic Is always been important to people I know that there's been a lot and I think right rightfully so There's been a lot of attention on police conduct Over the summer and into the fall But our own experience in civil rights unit working with our colleagues in other states or other parts of the Vermont Is that these issues are effective for matters all the time? and It's great that more people are being aware of it because I think we will You know, we will end up with better outcomes and results on the roads We're in people's houses if they have contact with the police in their houses and anytime Folks are more aware of their rights and are able to assert those rights clearly is a way to You know reinforce the culture that that we're part of in this country and Vermont and so It's it's not It's not an effort to be antagonistic, but just to say look here. Here's what I understand my rights are and I'd like to assert them so we'll talk a little bit about Some of the rights that come into play when people come into contact with law enforcement Most people come in contact with law enforcement usually through a traffic stop. So I'd like to start With those rights that that come into play And then the next most frequent contact that Vermonters may come into contact with and Vermont is just on the street or on the sidewalk either You know just as they're conducting their own business or maybe they're part of a protest or observing a protest Or maybe even observing another police stop. We'll talk about the rights that might apply there and then finally we'll talk about Your rights as it relates to police officers coming to your home or where you live or where you're staying and But by that time we will have covered most of the rights that already Apply to you, but then talk about some specific rights that apply when you're talking about Officers who want to talk to you or and or ask consent to come in or serve a warrant and the like Along the way, we're going to talk about some of the more recent developments in the law that relate to Digital evidence for example, what can a police officer take your cell phone when can they search your cell phone? Can they make you show things on your cell phone and those sorts of things? and it's not some of those issues are Very very recent the US Supreme Court has been deciding those cases Maybe five or ten years after the technology that arrived. So they're they're slowly catching up And then we also if we have time we'll also talk about Some of the frontiers about the interaction between law enforcement and the public and that has to do with things like facial recognition In Vermont and and and nationally for people who have family in other states. What are your rights when it comes to? What your rights of any when it comes to have your face Scanned and digitized in a sort of a new face Which that might be used as part of a criminal investigation or something else and we'll have time for questions for all of that So before I get started on traffic stops though If there are any questions about what I've described about what I do or what we do and or the topics I'd be happy to to take those now I Have a technical thing to interrupt here for a second. Could you just tilt your screen down, please because we're recording And we're yes, that's a little bit. Thank you so much That was Megan a work from CCTV Meeting television and she's recording this and we'll broadcast this later Channel 17 in Burlington and we're gonna have a lower third underneath you and I don't want it cutting off your chin Okay, thanks so much. All right, sure any other questions and Sandy should we I may not be able for my screen to see hands Okay So let's just talk about Let's just talk about traffic stops And the way I want to start that is really to Look at the traffic stops as an orient to get ourselves thinking about that encounter with law enforcement is to think about your position between Behind two different steering wheels the first steering wheels your own your own car if you're the driver of the car and let's Let's start right now and just assume that you're alone in the car But I also want you to think for a moment about What things may look like to the officer from behind their steering wheel When they may see a violation and decide to pull you over Starting from the officer's perspective And and I may explain some of the conduct or the behavior of the law enforcement officer When you see them in Vermont, it's often it's one officer Who's initiating a traffic stop? You may see if you're looking through your rear view mirror For example the off and at night the officer may have an awful lot of An awful lot of white light, you know, that's Beaming and you may have his high beams on and have his side beams on and blasting out a lot of light into the car And it may well be directed directly into your mirror. That's intentional for a couple of reasons one It's to allow the officer to see as much as they can see Inside the car to see where your hands are and see whether there's anything that's that could be a potential threat in the car And it's also To make it tougher for you if you have bad intentions for you to be able to spot the officer and if you are You know, let's say you had a weapon you were a bad person and you were you had a firearm and you were thinking about firing at the officer It's a lot tougher For you to confront those lights it takes your decision-making is slowed down Because you have tougher visibility It's annoying when it happens certainly when you get lit up so to speak at night That's the reason the officers are doing it Typically in a traffic stop, you don't want the officer to have any reason to be afraid of you officers who are afraid are are gonna are going to be Thinking about using force maybe if they are if they have to defend themselves and react very quickly So usually at nighttime a lot of folks recommend it I would generally agree with this that turn your dome light on turn off your engine Turn your dome light on so that the officer can see inside your car You don't want the officer to have a suspicion or a mistaken belief that your cell phone that's on your passenger seat Is a weapon you just want to have You want to give the officer that that visibility another thing you may see an officer do is they approach the car is they may put You may feel the car move a little bit the officer may put their hand on the trunk of your car and push down Pretty much every police officer in the u.s. Is taught That when you approach a car and you're going by a trunk you need to know whether that trunk is open or not whether there's somebody in the trunk If there's a potential threat because There are people who you know who may be inside of it, you know You don't know who you're coming up against and so an officer may pat the car They may also do that on your door as well to touch your door to make sure it's secure So that if someone's deciding to try to get out and maybe create a threat They have to go through the additional step Of opening the door rather than pushing an already door open door Those are little things that If you have the bad fortune of being stopped For a traffic violation you may observe an officer doing and It's pretty standard training, but it also Is a little window into the orientation of how they're trained Really from the first day at the academy Which is that they have to be ready to react to Situations where they don't know Who's in the car? They don't know what their intentions are. They don't know if they're armed And they do a lot of training on that because officers are trying to Carry out their job and when if you were imagined you can visualize walking to a car At night if you were an officer walking up on a car And you come to the window and the first thing you may notice when you look at is that Usually you can't see the person's hands If their hands are on their lap and so That creates a little bit of tension for police officers because They know that you know A hand is you know if there's a weapon or if there's a threat it's going to come from the hands Uh, and so a lot of folks do recommend that You know if you have a traffic stop and and the officer's coming up in your car turn off your keys Put your hands on the steering wheel Just make sure they're comfortable and then that way the officer again doesn't have to you start Entering into that mental calculation is like Whereas it are the hands of threat if your hands are on the steering wheel Um, it's going to place the officer in a little safer mindset and again Uh, you're going to be nervous, but I can also tell you especially for nighttime Stops, um, you know a lot of times law enforcement officers are nervous as well because they don't know what they're coming up on Uh, when you are there and the officer does uh contact you, um You know, they do have the right and remarks to uh to ask you for your license Your registration and proof of insurance There's a Vermont law that says that uh as part of the privilege of operating or getting a driver's license that you agree to provide that basic form of identification Um, but related to that is that you don't have to really say anything else Um, the officer says how you going where you hey where you going tonight? You don't have to say anything at all to the officer You just basically have to give them the information to identify yourself um Depending on the the officer's particular training or the culture of a police department Some officers might ask why ask you why? You think they stopped you, you know, why do you think you have any reason why I stopped you tonight? And they may say in a very very friendly way You know the honest answer is that you don't you probably don't know why they stopped Because you don't have access to their decision making um some officers and uh Again, it's kind of an old practice that I think is Oh Is on the way out, but you still see it where officers will do that. Um They're not really engaging and friendly chit chat. They're trying to see whether they can get your you to admit to a traffic violation So if you blew a stop sign and the officer says, you know why I stopped you tonight and you say I guess because I didn't stop at the stop sign They have an admission that you violated the vehicle code and for a lot of law enforcement officers And I think next year in vermont universally It'll be out. It'll be recorded. So you you should assume that Whether you can tell or not that your encounter is being recorded Um, so, you know, you don't have to tell the officer You might have a hunch why they stopped you But you're not required to tell them anything under the fifth amendment uh to the constitution The u.s constitution and also under article 11 of vermont's own state constitution You don't have you have the right to remain silent. Um, and so You know, a lot of a lot of folks would just say, you know, just don't really engage in that say, I don't know No, I don't know why you stopped. How can I help you? Um and be polite The officers don't if officer asks you where you're going where you're coming from You don't have to answer that doesn't mean you shouldn't answer Uh, I think people can decide on their own, but when we're talking about people's rights, the important thing is that you don't have to answer at all um Sometimes the officers are doing that as a way of just seeing whether you are Uh nervous or whether uh, or if you're seeming excessively nervous They're trying to see if there's a reason for it So they may have an investigative orientation. Some officers are just being friendly it's hard to tell but um it's always true and and I think most people already know this but You know, when you speak to law enforcement voluntarily anything you say Uh could be used as evidence against you later um, and so, um You you don't have access To why the officer is asking you but you do know or you should at least proceed out of the assumption That a you're in your encounter with law enforcement is recorded and b that they may play if They decide to charge you with something and uh, they can roll tape and anything you say or how you say it um, can be played back in a court. Um, and so, um Uh, that's an important. Uh, that's an important thing officers are allowed. Um Uh, and this when I was in law school, this was a little hard for me to swallow Um, when I discovered this but when officers are doing an investigation Let's say it could be that they they stopped you not because you violated the traffic law It could be just that you that you and your car match the description of someone who's wanted for a crime Uh, and that might be and if it's a close enough match that might be I'm not that might be enough basis for them to stop you And now they're going to be talking to you. Um To figure out whether, you know, you're the person they that's they want um, and Courts have said for a long time that officers are allowed to engage in a bit of deceit um, so if they ask you for information and And you don't provide it Or if they are asking you Or telling you why they stopped you and it's not the real reason They stopped you it could be that you know, they You were speeding but it's also true that they really want to know whether you're the car That was near the, you know, the robbery last night Um, so they may tell you that yeah, well, you know, you were speeding a little bit and that's why it stopped you So if you just talk to me, you know, you may just end up with a warning Uh, and I'll let you go and that doesn't have to be true Uh for the officer In contrast is It is a misdemeanor in vermont for you to give false statements to an officer In order to either point blame at somebody else or to evade any kind of Blame for anything that you might have done for example If they ask you, you know Uh, do you have any is there any open alcohol in the car? Uh, and you choose and you answer that question and you lie about it um And they later find out that you're lying about it. You can be charged not only for the open container violation, but also for a misdemeanor for Um, for giving false statements to an officer I'm trying to interrupt for a minute Julio. So sure, but that's not perjury though, right? Because it's not under oath It's not under oath. So it's a less serious offense. A misdemeanor in vermont law Basically means the maximum punishment they can give you is up to one year in jail Uh, perjury is typically a felony which is more than one year in jail Is a practical matter people don't serve a year But that's the distinction when people talk about this was a felony or this was a misdemeanor Typically in the u.s. And it's generally true in vermont The dividing line is the maximum amount you could you could spend behind bars and that's one year um so You know, so if you are in the if you are in a position where um You're worried about what you're saying to something in law enforcement may create more trouble to you The law is pretty clear that you're better off not saying anything Rather than lying about it Um, so uh, like I said the constitution gives you the right to stay silent. It doesn't give you the rights to lie Uh during, you know an investigative stop or or an enforcement stop um and um officers may uh You know may ask you things that um, may be obvious to you and you again You can decide whether you want to answer them or not Some sometimes officers will say things that Might be troubling and it might be indicative of bias like they might ask Uh, someone do you have any weapons in the car? Asking someone whether whether they have a weapon in a car is not a legal violation for the officer they can ask you um many things um Under the law, but that doesn't mean you have to answer them um so um And you know if you don't have any weapons in the car that and you want to say no I don't have any I don't have any weapons in the car You know, that's up to you. We don't uh tell people You know how they should handle every interaction But it's clear that If you know if you responded to that by saying, you know what I don't really feel comfortable Talking to you other than giving you my my identification Uh, you know, um, you can't be charged for refusing to answer the question That that's that's not allowed under the state or federal constitution um You also um have the right and and this is where vermont law is a little different than federal law You do have the right uh in vermont Uh to stay inside your car Uh unless the officer Uh has a basis for like a safety related basis or unless the officer is going to arrest you For making you step out of the car um Uh a little over 10 years ago, maybe 15 plus years ago that issue came up before the vermont supreme court For many years under the federal constitution that the u.s supreme court Uh kind of balancing your privacy interest and staying in the car Versus the officer's safety interest in removing somebody for the car so you can see Where they are and they won't you know to close the car door behind them and they won't have access to weapons The u.s supreme court has said you know an officer Uh can do that and won't violate someone's right to an unreasonable search. It's a relatively minor intrusion Uh and it's you know and it would it would make encounters safer for law enforcement officers and the public um Uh and and they came up in a case where there was an officer literally Whose pilot his practice was every single person He stopped he made them get out of the car and close the car door behind them And then he took their license and information and wrote the citation While they were standing in the supreme court u.s supreme court so that didn't violate the federal constitution But in vermont the issue came up, uh, and it was it was a different result the vermont supreme court looked at our state constitution which is Which gives vermonters some greater protections than the federal constitution does Uh and the supreme court said that now you really the officer is really going to need to be able to identify his safety related reason why They can't uh carry out That you know their transaction writing a ticket etc while you're in the car But there are all sorts of inconveniences that could occur to people it can be cold out people can be afraid Just to be pulled out of the car that that's a frightening experience for people and the vermont supreme court uh Said in that case and and they reaffirmed it only three years ago in a different case that um, that's not a minimal intrusion on people's rights so um You're always able to ask the officer a question about why they're doing something Um, that's the first amendment. Um, that allows you a freedom of speech. You can ask someone You know, so why are you stopping me officer? The officer asks you why you have to step out of the car. You're you're allowed to ask them why Um, they're not required under the law to tell you however It may be that their policy a lot of police departments um Will have a policy that says that You know unless it's going to jeopardize your investigation if someone asks you why they're being stopped You tell them Uh, and if someone says why are you doing this? You tell them the answer unless the officer can articulate some reason um Why they think that might create a safety risk for example If someone matches up the you know to the description of someone suspected in a bombing or a shooting uh, and the officer stops the car with a broken taillight Um, and then wants to talk with the person and maybe ask them more questions Uh, and if the officer says well answers and says well, you know, Frankly, I'm not sure if you're the bomber or not that might create a safety risk for the officer And so most police department policies will say well, you know, if it's going to make it unsafe for you Or you think it's going to make it unsafe for you. You don't have to answer But you can always but you can always ask And um in the context of being asked outside of the car If you're asking so why are you why you're taking my out of the car? Why can't we do this? in the car That's not going to be that's not going to create legal jeopardy for you um How the officer reacts to that kind of depends upon the officer certainly just asking in a calm voice out of Curiosity or concern I think is is going to be fine. But in vermont um You know if if an officer does ask you out of the car um Probably you know, I would You know, I would be thinking you know, this is more this is about more than a broken taillight. He thinks Somehow I'm unsafe to him And so maybe I'm going to conduct myself a little differently To to alleviate any sort of doubts that I'm some sort of threat to the officer Or it could be you know, an officer who is behind in their training is not doing the job Uh, and if there were you know, I were inconvenienced about that that might be something I take up later was the department about why I was ordered out of the car um But that's that's one case where the vermont um where vermont is different Another thing that you might experience Um in a traffic stop especially at night is you might see that officer or maybe you've already seen if the officer Will have a flashlight. They're usually holding it up with the light at the end here Uh, and they're shining it in the to the back. See your car um Folks I think can guess why they're doing it. There are two reasons really wanted to find out who else is in the car um If again from a safety perspective Officers are thinking two people are more dangerous to me than one person Three people are a lot more dangerous to me than one person. So I want to know who's in the car Uh, you'll see them doing it in the daylight if a car has Has tinted windows as well Another reason is that the officer might even though they have reason to stop you for a broken taillight They're still allowed under the constitution to You know to investigate whatever they can see and quote plain view. So if they see Someone tied up in the back seat with rope and uh and tape over their mouth Um, uh, they're permitted to act upon that information if it's visible or if they see Uh evidence, you know other evidence of a of a crime or what or or possession of something that looks like It's illegal contraband. They can Um, yeah, that may give them an additional evidence to conduct a search of the car Or to arrest you. Um, so that's why they're doing it. They want to know what's inside the car Want to be safe but too also because They're allowed to do that. Um And they're in in the investigation business. So they're likely to do that Um, one thing they can't do uh, this gets into the area of searches One thing they can't do is ask you to move things around in the car to give them a better view. Um, So, uh, they couldn't order you for example, if let's say you or you were coming back From a party and you had a big tray of food That was covered by a big kitchen towel Um, you know, they can't they couldn't make you Uncover that tray to see what's underneath that they can look and see what they can see in plain view But when they're asking you to move things around that aren't otherwise visible to anybody You know anybody who would just come up to your window Uh, you're really getting into the territory of the search And they need to have probable cause to conduct that search So before I start talking about searches, um, I'll take a quick Moment if there are any questions about what I've talked about in connection with your right to remain silent Is there any questions about that? Yeah, Pam. Pam has a question. Pamela My question Julio is um, I frequently drives undocumented migrants. I usually brown skinned and um If I'm stopped and the officer says I see uh, someone you have a passenger and is that person the citizen? Uh, may I see his or her papers? Yeah, so I want to know on the driver, right? I'm a white skinned driver. Uh, so what are What's the best thing for me to do at that point? Well, I can talk about what you're allowed to do Uh, and then I I mean and then I'll what you can talk in case by case you can decide What you know, what is best for you in the situation? Um, Vermont law doesn't require you unless the officer has reason to believe That the two of like in a traffic stop If you're the operator of the vehicle the officer doesn't Have any uh rights to demand that your passengers produce any sort of identification period um The exception to that would be maybe if the two of you matched the description of people that You know, there was a report of people who had just committed a crime So that would be different, but if you're just talking about a traffic stop, so why am I being stopped? Well I'm stopping you because you ran the speed limit. You were 10 over in a 45 zone and that's why I'm stopping you and then he starts asking questions about The identification of your passengers who have not operated the vehicle, you know You don't they don't have to answer at all. Um, they they have a fifth amendment, right? Uh being on us soil and they have a right as a vermoner being on vermont soil Not to answer Questions from that law enforcement officer furthermore For all vermont law enforcement departments even though They're it's not a crime for them to ask There is a statewide policy standard That they have to meet that That includes a prohibition on law enforcement officers in vermont, so we're talking about state or local police or sheriffs or deputies From asking someone's immigration status Unless it's relevant to a criminal investigation They have to be able to articulate Later on if that's if there's a complaint To avoid discipline or even more serious consequences depending on the fact pattern For them to be able to articulate why you're asking um, so Regardless of whether you're a citizen or not. I mean whether a citizen or not Has nothing to do with the traffic violation And and vermont does not have a show your papers law Here in fact vermont um Many years ago under different administration vermont was part of A legal challenge to a show you papers law that The state of arizona Attempted to enact where um, they would require everybody to show some proof of Of lawful residents or not. Um, and that and that law was um Was overturned by the u.s. Supreme court That was a vermont case as well It was not it was not we filed our office filed a front of the court brief Under our prior attorney general In support of the legal challenge to that law and the supreme court agreed with her arguments, which is that State and local law enforcement officers are not authorized to enforce civil immigration law if you are unlawfully present in the country And that's your only offense That's a civil offense. That's not arrestable So if you were a student and you were here on an expired visa um, the fact that you remained in the country Is not something that a vermont law enforcement officer can arrest you on um, and so and and for that reason it also be cause We want vermoners to be able to trust their interactions with our state and local police officers um that you know It's been emphasized in this statewide, um fair and impartial policing policy That you don't ask, uh, there may be cases where Asking someone about where they're from Might be relevant to It yeah to To maybe helping them out it could be that in a traffic stop the officer has some reason to believe that there might be The passenger might be there unwillingly Someone who's being trafficked for example but those are pretty rare cases and And I and I would assume that it wouldn't be something that you would be you would be involved in in any event but Yeah, the officers are told in their policy Don't ask unless you can establish it. That somehow is an element Of a crime that you're authorized to investigate. Okay Yeah, just to clarify so as as the driver Um, I could simply say um, I have a right to remain remain silent, right? If someone has a direct question some some officer who's not been well trained as you say Would that that'd be appropriate for me to say right? Well, I mean if the officer you have the right to remain silent And a passenger has a right to remain silent So I can say those things and I'll and that would handle the situation, right? It should well, it depends. I would in that situation. I would now look for your passenger once It's their right not your right to assert it on that behalf. We already talked about we already talked about it prior to so I I know her desires Well, then you can you can relay that to them, especially if there's a language barrier Um as sometimes there are with uh different Um, you know visitors to or or newcomers to vermont Um So that's so that that has to do with the Chair with the right to remain silent you as a driver. You still have to identify yourself Sure, uh and and and provide proof that you're Authorized to be on the roads and that you have registration available for the the car and that you're driving right But when it comes to a search This is where I think a lot of people. I'm sorry. Is there a question another question? Okay, sure I can't hear I'm sorry. I can't hear the question Yeah, are you okay? This is Lou. Hi. Sorry. Um the question is How would a driver know if the officer says, um Yeah We there has been a crime and you kind of your car and you fit the thing. How do you know if if that's true Or not as he can he lie about that as well? Um It really depends upon the circumstances Courts will allow officers to lie for example If they tell you that their intent is only to get information so that You know, you'll probably if you just let me know, you know, where you're going I'll probably let you off with a warning Um, but if they're lying if a person says for example You know Well, I don't consent to your searching a car and the officer says well actually, um You know, I have I have reason to search your car. So you might as well Sign the form And then it turns out that later on the officer didn't have a reason Um Then his search of the car would be Unconstitutional or court would likely find that your consent wasn't truly voluntary I'm about to talk about that, but I guess I can elaborate a little a little on it now Which is that in order for you to to waive a constitutional right? It has to be knowing You know what right you're waving and it has to be voluntary. You have to freely give it and not be Uh coerced So courts look when when it comes to searches Where people are asked consent, especially in brahman courts are very skeptical about whether that's really a voluntary situation at all Different states courts have different perceptions about how free people feel when our officer says You mind if I just if I search your trunk and then we'll be on our way Vermont I think takes a historically The courts take a pretty dim view of that. They understand How coercive that can be people are afraid this is after all Somebody who may have the legal right to stop you. They've got a gun They work with other people who have guns who might show up. They have all you know, they're Uh, there's all sorts of fears that can arise in the context of that interaction So court is already maybe inclined to think that it's not so voluntary But enough if an officer lies to you about what your right is And then uh, and then you consent to a search The court's likely to find out that wasn't really effective consent So if they found something let's suppose that You know, you gave a ride to somebody last week and then they They left something in the backseat of your car. You didn't know anything about and the officer says, uh, uh What's this? I'm going to arrest you for possession of whatever the item is Um, that evidence would likely be suppressed Uh, if it came to light that the officer Lied to you about whether you had the right to consent or not. It's not really knowing or voluntary Um, but the the mirror saying of it itself is not A crime, uh, but oftentimes when the seat is used by officers they may um And courts will uphold they will um They will uphold when officers will misrepresent what the consequences are of a search um You know or like an officer might say, you know, you Um, you might if I search your car. I'm not I don't really care about any weed Or if you have any beer there, we just want to make sure you don't have any guns So I feel safe and then they later on they find Uh, either alcohol or marijuana and and if they're going to make a rest they may be more likely to do that because They're misrepresenting what you do it It's sort of like on the tv drivers when they are interrogating people and they say look, it's just make it easy on yourself confess Um, often, you know, look, I'm sure the we're gonna I'm going to go to the prosecutor recommend that you get probation for this courts will say that's you know, that's trickery that It is permitted But if but if in an interrogation using the same tv series, uh, you know Scenario that we're visualizing if the person says I want a lawyer and the the lawyer says, I mean the the officer says You don't have a right to a lawyer Um, not not a vermont. That's that's somewhere else But vermont doesn't give you a right to a lawyer and then they continue to try to get information from you And you relent then all of that information probably is going to be thrown out Because that's again, it's coercive It's not a knowing waiver of your rights to remain silent because they've lied to you about your rights um, you know, I mean I Think you're less likely to see that Then to see officers who might be deceptive about just saying hey look, it's no big deal I just search your trunk and then Or you know, hey, you know, we do this for everybody. It's just something that we do. This is a dangerous area It's something that would make me feel a lot better Uh, when their real intent might be if I get consent to search a trunk I searched 10 trunks a night. Maybe I find something Uh, maybe I take guns or drugs off the street So they're they're made there may be room for for them to misrepresent Why they're asking you to do But when it comes to misrepresenting what your rights are, um, the court's not likely to take To you know to take that uh to take that seriously And the officer likely if there were a complaint made Against the officer likely there would be some consequences for the officer because there's isn't there's territory that Um, they're expected not to not to go down So when we talk about Searches for cars again, I talked a little bit about plain view. They can look at what is in your car Um, that that anybody walking up to your car would be able to see um But to ask you, um You know to get out of the car and it consent Uh to a search the officer is going to need to have You know probable cause either to arrest you for some some uh arrestable offense uh um Or have some other reason or maybe they already have a warrant um But if they you know and so there are there are rules about That's strictly governed when officers can can uh search a car But if you agree that they can search your car All of those rules are gone. You basically have signed away all of those rules And so anything that the officer finds Uh in your car if you've if you've consented to the search Um Can be used as evidence against you Uh and a lot of folks think well, I don't have anything to hide in my car Uh, and that's likely true for a lot of people Um, but there are there are cases where people give a ride to somebody Um where something falls out of their pocket or they put something in the car Or they have a spouse or someone else in their family A family member who uses a car and you know, you really don't know But what you do know is that if you consent to the search Um, the officer is free to go through you know a fishing expedition And search your car. Um, so generally speaking people um Feel uncomfortable people always feel uncomfortable saying no to a police officer. That's why I talked about that coercive um nature of the encounter that courts have have recognized people wonder Well, if I tell them no, even if I have a right now is there are they going to think I'm up to something? Uh, and that's going to make things worse for me Well, it may make the officer more suspicious. That's true. That's up to the psychology of the individual officer But it's also true that you flat out have a right To say no that I don't consent Uh, and then the question is how to say that this is the question we sometimes get How do you tell an officer that? um I've seen some people just recommend you just say look, I don't I don't consent to searches period Nothing personal. I understand you're trying to do your job, but it's something I don't do Rather saying is this is this is just how I how I feel about it. So Uh, you know, unless you have a legal reason to do a search without my consent I'd rather I'd rather you not and then just And then just stop talking Right, you have the right to remain silent The officer might conjole people and they can try to control people and persuade them But if you really don't want the officer to search your car, you can just repeat What you said and the fact that you did not consent to a search can't be used against you You're basically Asserting a constitutional right um And um the the clearer you say that The better it is for you if they Decided to do a search anyway, and then If there's you know trouble down the road if there's an arrest or something like that It'll make it easier for For you to defend yourself or you defend a member of your family if there are other people in the car um Where you said look, I don't I don't consent To the search and then you know your legal representative is going to be able to Make the state prove that they actually satisfied the Fairly stringent requirements to search someone's car Okay before we move on we're getting Close to the end actually okay and I would ask I think there are some people from Immigration groups. Is that true like Pamela? Did you have other questions? I Mean you you deal with the whole asylum questions also, right Pamela I had a question like what if What happens when ice stops people or do they stop people? Do you know? Yeah, that that that's a question. I would have as well. I've had some training in that but Whatever Haleo wants to update us on would be great Well, what I would say is a couple of things one I would say that And I'm not an immigration lawyer immigration is a matter of federal law and the immigration work that our offices does tends to involve In the last several years certainly there have been proposed changes to immigration law or how they've been applied that Violate existing american laws including the constitution so In connection with the traffic stop You know the constitution still applies There has to be a legal basis for stopping somebody That they have to either have seen or have reason to believe That they have violated Some law that that officer whoever it is has the authority to enforce And so And everyone has the right to remain silent everyone has the right not to consent to searches But everyone who's operating a motor vehicle has an obligation to To provide proof that they are authorized to drive the vehicle That there's a registration for the vehicle and that there's insurance You know vermont has a privilege card driver's privilege card Which doesn't require people to provide any proof of lawful residence of vermont In order to provide satisfactory forms of identification Um And so that's you know Any law enforcement officer is required by law to accept that as proof of identity Assuming it it you know, it is the driver's card And and not some you know someone else's card Um, but you know the same rules basically apply um When does does ice have the authority to stop anybody in the first place? Well ice could stop somebody if they saw them unlawfully crossing the border. I mean if they saw they saw a truck I think I just read an article Not that long ago about someone seeing someone drive from canada crosses yard Um, and uh, they were caught on the person's motion camera um, so crossing the border Uh without authorization Is itself a misdemeanor under federal law But to make a misdemeanor arrest You need to actually see the person doing it. Um to say, uh For an officer to believe that you crossed three days ago is not going to be enough for that officer To arrest you for a misdemeanor It could be if it's a felony like if an officer has an informant who says you robbed the bank a year ago um And they've got information that Seems like it's it's pretty good evidence, you know that This informant provided them, uh, then you don't have to witness the bank robbery But for misdemeanors, it's a little bit different. So unlawful presence in the u.s on its own It's not a crime at all Um, but crossing the border without authorization if that's a misdemeanor Um, and so that that might be something that they do another area I say I could stop here. There's a question. Sure. Okay. Yes, uh, bry is that your name? I'm sorry You're muted. Yeah. Uh, I am Bidu bry and new immigrant here It has been just five years that I'm here in government environment from asia I don't know whether it is It will be perfect time for me to Drop down this question or not, but also then I do have a question curious to land here that is Any possibilities of getting this law um, or rule written in our language like I am napali so in napali language written And given to this new immigrant so that our immigrants could read that at least and understand Because I know we are new immigrants. We don't have any experience of driving We have so Just when we came here, we had to started driving Never knowing all the rules of here If there is any way of giving this, you know translated version or any type of Written laws in our language so that we will our people could understand I'm really. Thank you so much for asking that because I'm here at the association of africans living in vermont Which represents or tries to help the whole immigrant community and the people I try to help them through the legal Battles that they sometimes get involved in and that's a need that is really really on the top of everybody's list Is how people from another country? How do they even understand or get any education about the law? I think it's critical for helping people understand what it means to live in the united states And I really want to work on this. I think you're so right about I see for instance People of your community in the napali community who have been arrested Not arrested but charged with driving without a license because they didn't know they had to have a license As you mentioned to drive a car that's real Those instances are true and absolutely people Of every community need knowledge about the law and they and they need it more and more in their own language But that's why I'm doing this tonight That's why we're doing these kinds of programs is I've become very aware of how many americans and how many new americans Don't understand the law or the function of the courts or when they have to be in court or when they can get arrested when they can't get arrested So this is A continuing need and I'm hoping to try to meet that need through seminars like this. But anyway Thank you for bringing that up. Does anybody else have any other questions? Thank you anyone else so it's uh I mean anybody have any final questions. I'm sorry julio, but we don't have a huge amount of time yet left So I would really like it to open this up for questions in our last few minutes anyone Anyone been stopped by the police lately or we better not better not talk about that Okay before we end up I did want to mention that what what happens This has happened to me by the way a cop comes to my door and wanted to get into the apartment Down I live upstairs people live downstairs and this cop kept on telling me that they had to go into her house And they've also said that We want to get into your house. I had to fight with that officer A lot to say you don't have a search warrant. You have no right to be in my house I was very careful not to say things like get the hell out because that would look like I was obstructing the cop or something And I would have been called in to the police station. So I was very polite But I finally had to end up saying get out of my house. You do not have a warrant So please remember that. I mean, I don't know how you want to address that but that's true, right? They don't have the right to come in And into your house and search it or anything else without a warrant. Is that true? That's that that's true and let They generally have to have a warrant To enter your house Unless you consent if you say yeah, you could come in And sometimes that's that happens Where people feel like they can't say no But you know, you you could if a police officer wanted to talk to you You could speak them through a you know, like a chain door where you have the the chain latch so that You don't feel like they could step in and maybe It's not really clear whether you allowed them to step in or not Or you could just you know exit your front door and close it behind you and say I'm going to help you No, you can't come in if unless you have a warrant There are some minor exceptions to that for example If they were chasing a bank robber and they saw him run into your house Uh, there are certain exceptions that would allow them to continue Running after that person But those are really rare and far in between You know constitutional law federally and at the state level is very protective of people's homes Um, and so yeah, they don't have the rights to come in But if you consent then Uh If if you consent to let them enter your home Um, but you haven't consented to search then anything that they can see in plain view again without uncovering anything or look inside purses or briefcases or backpacks But just things that they see in there If they see something in there that might be evidence of a crime Well, then they can use that maybe to arrest you if if they have reason to connect you with what that is Right. Um, so you're you're opening that Can't awareness, but if you say yeah, you can come in I'll talk to you in the kitchen That doesn't give them the right to go through the rest of your house Right. If they say if I want to search your house Then you know, that's as good as having a search warrant It's better in fact because a judge will often place limits on what can be searched and when but if you just say Yeah, sure you can search my house They could be there for a long time and and um, if you didn't place any limits on it They could go through anything and and that could create a mess even if they don't find anything of interest to them, right, right? Um, anyway, I think that this is a longer discussion to Certainly, I'm sorry that this was only an hour actually because it's very important as as mr. Ray, I don't I'm sorry. I'm not pronouncing your name correctly, but this is a very important subject especially for People, I guess in more urban areas is what you'd say to a police officer how you say it and how What your rights are in front of that? Police officer what I would always tell any of my clients or friends or anyone is remember that you are Innocent at the time that that police officer stops you and that you do not have to talk You have the right to remain silent and that you should because anything that you say Will be and could be used against you So they've got to be very very careful about how you deal with police officers and I would always caution people to be polite because Like that time in my house. I was very aware if I got testy that I would be the one that was in jeopardy about that so Anyway I I know that people don't feel polite when they're stopped by a police officer unjustly But I think people probably should try as hard as they can not to rile that guy, right? Anyway, yeah Anyway, so maybe julio will come back at another time, but anybody have any final questions No, all right. Well, thank you so much julio. Thank you and thank your office Remember that this was sponsored by the caroline fund by the association of africans living in vermont And by cctv who is filming this and this will be brought cast Later and by the vermont institute of community and international involvement and next week We're going to be presenting again from the attorney general's office An attorney who will talk about the peaceful transition of power and whether or not We're going to be in that kind of a situation because it will be the night after the election So try to zoom in we'll get Uh invitations to everybody, but thank you again for coming and thank you all. I really appreciate it. Thanks, julio Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Good night everybody. Bye