 Okay, welcome to the Tuesday, October 30th meeting of the My Peel Your Designer Review Committee. I will let staff and members introduce themselves. Meredith Crandall, staff. Stephen Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Benjamin Cheney. Unless anybody else has anything to bring up, do I hear a move to approve the agenda? I'll hear a second. And all in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. So we'll go forward with the first application for 100 State Street, continued from the October the 15th hearing, owner of Capital Plaza Corporation and Mary Heaney Trust, applicant city of My Peel Your. This is a proposal for the parking garage. And just in terms of introduction, I also have to admit that I am a, and a butter to the Heaney lot I own a property that's adjacent to the Heaney lot, but I have no predisposition when we're the other because of that. So if anybody has any concerns, I'm okay with it either way. So go ahead and present the newest iteration of the parking garage. Thank you for the record. My name is Greg Ravido from Ravido Architects. And also with me this evening is James Finley-Sheris from Wagner-Hodges in our landscape architects. I gave this to you in print form. I also have it for the screen. There are a couple of extra sets here. There's like three extra sets if anybody in the audience is dying to have one. What I thought I would do is focus on the issues that were most important to this board last time we met, there was some discussion about an arch feature that was kind of found to be architecturally not entirely relevant. And I think we got back with our client, which in this case was the mayor and some folks in city government kind of talked to him about where we were. And we've come back with a new proposal which eliminates that arch in favor of a couple of things. This one gesture solves a number of problems. But if you look on the cover sheet, you can begin to see that the solution to our problem is probably best illustrated on this. Oh, Jesus. We're forgetting this rendering here, which is just the same. It's a little blown up inside. Sorry. What's been done here is that we've raised up a boardwalk that spans between the garage and bike path. So that as the bike path comes around from the east or from the west by the hotel, there's a large landing area there, which is at the bike path level, it's elevated above the floor level of the garage at this point. Eliminating that arch feature in favor of having this boardwalk come up to the building and then at human scale we've got some smaller art panels shown that complement the larger art panels above. Those could be regular pieces of abstract art or they could be something that relates to the history of Montpellier. For the painted on parts of the artwork, we've agreed that we'll have a public process where the actual art itself is procured. You can also see on this image, which is kind of a blow up of it, you can see this set of relationships including the ramp which was added on the east side of the parking garage. It takes us up from existing grade to bike path elevation, stopping off at the midpoint for pedestrians coming out of the garage to collect into this same feature. So people coming out of the garage going to the downtown would come out this side door here showing the law right hand corner and up the ramp to the bike path proper across the bridge and over to downtown on the bike path. The other access is across the west side of the building or the east side of the building. There's still a walkway that goes between the hotel and the proposed garage which comes down and connects to this boardwalk at the bike path. I'm talking about the east side of the building. Oh, on the east side. There's trees and stuff in the way that goes past the two entrances to the floor of the parking garage and out. If there's a layout of planning. If I look at C1.1 which is our site plan proper for the garage, if I think I understand what you're asking Eric, starting from State Street there's a painted bike lane that runs down the Haney lot avoiding the backs of parking spaces and resolving itself at this access drive to the overlooked park property. That's something that's protected by an agreement between the owner of that parcel and the owners of the Haney lot. And then down at the lower corner of that access to the overlooked parking area you can see where there's a level landing pad and then the ramp starts up and ramps around the southeast corner of the building and up to the boardwalk. And that ramp is something I ride my bicycle up? Well, it's accessible. It's designed per the A-Dag and it's wider than normal but we still think that the city ought to put up a sign encouraging people to walk their bikes on the boardwalk. This is going to be a confluence area where bike riders coming from over on 1 Taylor Street or from downtown are going to converge on this boardwalk area. I just see somebody coming down that in a bike. I mean you could do it on a bike comfortably but what happens if you run into a pedestrian going the other way and can't stop fast enough to climb on a scooter? Yeah, any number of things. I expect... And you're constrained by this dotted line here, that corner, that is the setback? Why a shampoony wire? This dash dot line is the 20 foot setback. As we understand it, in this district within that setback you can impact 50% of it. I think that's what the right side is. That it's a 20 foot setback? Well, it's a 20 foot water setback but in the UC1 it's a 15 foot riparian buffer. And so you've got... This is one of the things we need to hash up is still a potential issue now that you added in the ramp under the zoning ranks for the ERB levels. I will say that we've discussed this with the civil engineering team and it's their position that this is a channelized stream bank. By virtue of the fill material and the stone facing that's been put on the banks there. This is not a unconstrained river. This is then something we'll be dealing with the development review board. But yeah, I mean there is a property line there as well. And we obviously can't go over that. And in all of this I think the renderings show it. We still need to have the volume underneath it empty for stormwater purposes. Which it's still doing. Greg, did you want us to turn the lights off so you could show any of this up there? If the audience would like to see any of it we could. I mean it's probably easier for me to go through the paper version. I'll put the rendered image up. And if anybody wants to see that we can just turn the lights off. Would anybody like us to turn the lights off so you can see what's up on the screen a little bit better? Maybe we should. So that's the image anyhow. What we're talking about is right in the middle of the image where you can see those colorful panels. We've changed the design to include this boardwalk which will be up at the bike path elevation. And that basically gets rid of the arch as a concept. Which is fine. Have you thought about any benches or anything on the deck that's pretty good size? We have thought about some site furnishings. I know that the package that's met it for the fifth includes the built in tool racks. I don't know if I can zoom in on this. Was there any more discussion regarding the trellis I don't know what we're calling them, the steel. The sculptural features. I just wanted to zoom over and show you the boardwalk up in detail. So you can see there are little red things on the bike repair station. One of them is a pump and the other one is a rack that's got Allen wrenches, spanners and stuff on it for people who want to stop and fix a tire. Then you can see there's a little bit of an arrangement of benches there as well. The decking is proposed to be pressure treated? I don't know about pressure treated. What we think it would be is we would use solid concrete plank to span the opening. Then we'd dress it with a suitable tropical hardwood to provide the walking surface. Make it more boardwalk like. This would discourage people from rollerblading and stuff into this pause point. Slow people down a little bit. I think having that surface helps. This would be a good place for a bike rack too. We are still planning on putting bike racks in the garage. But I don't know if we've indicated any on the site here. I think this is a nice addition. This is a gathering place. I don't know how much of a view of the river it has from there. You've got the railroad bridge right there. I assume there's a pretty good view of the river. It's not fun. Obviously the river bank is on the other side of one Taylor street. But the north branch, this bike path as it comes up on the new bike path bridge is going to be a real place to congregate I think. I think it's a huge improvement from the last one. The other question I had is Paul Carnahan wrote a very thoughtful letter about access to the river. I thought of it afterwards, yes this really does block the river. I think it's really good to provide those accesses in a really clear way. I don't know whether anything can be done. I think it might be a place for art is on the entrance to the alleyway between the hotel and the parking garage. You had something just a sign that says to the river walk. So people really clearly know that was a way to get to the river. I'm big on benches. They need to tell me to be that way. That can serve as a meeting place for people or people can sit there and rest. As you can see we've indicated five benches. I'm thinking about it the entrance on the other side. A sign on this end of it, signs that say appropriate to State Street. There's the front door of the garage and there's the path between the two buildings with the property line between them. I think that's something we can stipulate without having to come back. We would happily agree to that. Some place that makes it look like an attractive way to go for people. And obviously the way finding stuff is important as well. Hold on one second. I was going to suggest that as well. Why don't you come up to the microphone, introduce yourself and then ask the question that you would like. So hi, I'm Elizabeth Parker and I've been very much interested in this bike access and I'm excited about what you're doing with regard to the area where you can repair bikes and sit. My question is as it's drawn now and it may just be the surface that you're trying to describe but I just wanted to make sure that if there is going to be a railing along the top of the retaining wall that it is going to make a sharp turn back along the side of this terrace that you're creating and not run along the bike path that that is all going to be open space from the north south side of the terrace over to the other side of the terrace that it's going to be easily accessible. Is that the concept? This is the bike path proper here where my cursor is and all of this land up here with these trees and stuff shown is at bike path elevation. This little area in here as well as these two triangles of space are down below like six feet. So we're showing a railing going across here and then along here. That's was my question. That's exactly wonderful. We don't know and can't say anything definitive tonight about the final disposition of a fence along the train tracks. Because Tom McCartle brought up the notion that it may be a problem to have a fence on both sides of the tracks. That was my question. I just wanted to make sure that that's where the railing was going to go and that it wasn't going to continue along and then that little section that runs right there. Right here. No, down. Well, it doesn't matter anymore. You answered my question. Thank you. Okay, great. Yeah, and then this formal bike path crosses over to the one Taylor Street lot and it's to become Confluence Park right down here on the next page here. Alright. Well, here you can see that fence that she was asking about here going across the top of that. What I was trying to bring up are the last few pages in the set. Sorry. Not my laptop. And I'm going to have to do this though. So I've prepared for you three options and I don't know why these are squished like that. The proportions don't weird because this sidebar menu that I... Do you know how to close this menu here? Yeah, you put this little small arrow right there. I mean, go to full screen? I don't know where that is. Control L will make it possible. Well, forget the vertical proportions for a minute. This is option one which would be what I've done is I've presented three options with the opening decorated in a distinctive way so we can talk about these openings. Because the building is a big complicated thing and there are lots of moving parts, we didn't articulate every rendering with every option because we just don't have it in our budget to do that. But here's what we're calling option one. This is a dimensional steel frame that sort of forms a portal arch within the masonry and then it's braced by a couple of diagonal braces with some big plates, big plate connectors at the corners. This is on the side of the building? This would be any of those masonry portions where we've got the big opening. So this is one of the alternative ways of decorating those large openings. We're doing something very similar on a project right now in South Burlington called Larkin Terrace. It's on Shelburne Road down by the McDonald's in Burlington and we're using the steel and chase around the openings with the masonry like this. What it does do is it gives us an actual load carrying member that can act as the lintel for that large masonry opening. It also gives us a sort of tidy transition between the brick and the structural hind because I can use this frame element to define that mind. And then what you're seeing in the background which is going to be common to all of these is proposal. This is a fiberglass fabric that's 50% open. It forms a sort of solid screen on which we can have images printed. What I'm showing here is that screen, that scrim, if you will. And I've printed on it sort of industrial looking gears and stuff thinking about this thing as a railroad trestle bridge. So at any rate, what the scrim would do is it would hide the precast elements behind and sort of provide a sort of solidness to this opening so that these sculptural elements can kind of play in that space without other things. I think these would be fairly easy to change too, wouldn't they? Yeah, I think they're meant to last for a good long time but they could be changed over time. Is that what's also preventing me from falling out? Yeah, it would provide for free ventilation at the same time to keep you from going in or it should be helpful in terms of keeping snow and linger and rain and stuff from getting in on those intermediate levels as well. So this is an option to that problem. That would be another great place to have a competition for the screen printing of the material? Yeah, whatever the design is. Yeah. I could think of some places that a photograph of a train might be a good thing to do. I'm assuming you can go up photographs if you want. I think the sort of more graphic and abstract it is, probably the longer lifespan it will have as far as, I'm sorry, what I'm trying to do here is go to the next option. Alright, so here's the original concept plan. Again, it would have that scrim material behind it. Then you've got these four inch steel pipes that are winding back and forth, as you can see in this way, but they're also going back and forth in the plane. This was my original concept and I still like it so I'm going to keep it on a list of options, but I think one thing is we've always intended for that to have some color on it, so this is I think me showing it with a variety of colors happening. This is one last version of this, which would be a very traditional thing that's being done in interesting ways these days. It's a perforated masonry screen wall, so we would have the mason lay this up in an interesting pattern and occasionally the shaded parts would be spots where we would have them leave a block out. They can turn bricks partially leaving them project or otherwise give this a very sculptural look. This is a pretty solid looking thing though. I think the idea has some currency in the design world right now and it certainly works with us as far as providing a ventilated wall that's still solid. I'm not sure this is my favorite option, but it is an interesting idea. I think it just would be a challenge to find a mason to do it well. Give me an idea of how many openings you would use in these treatments on. I can't figure out the column. The four outside corners of the building are essentially where the solids are. There are two more interior masses that are solid as well, so there's six potential locations for this. I would like to suggest that we use one approach to all six, because we'll have other variety of buildings going that are art wise. As much as I still like my original idea, I'm also really kind of fond of option number one as well. It sort of speaks to what our original design intent was, which was to recall the adjacent rail bridge in an abstract way. There. You are looking for this steel thing to be more understandable as having a job to do or a purpose for being there. This is pretty strong in that regard. We have a lot of flexibility and creativity that we can employ on this screen fabric material. I like number one. You can vary it with different designs in the background. I agree. Option one was not a lot. I'm a little worried about all the different designs between murals and having all these different panels of trains and gears. It begins to feel like a lot to me. I mean I would have to sort of, and then with the plantings. This screen doesn't have to be a graphic though. It could be a very subtle blacks and grays. The steel structure could replicate the railroad bridge which is already there anyway. Which is another standard railroad truss of the time. I think it's a nice tie-in rather than the abstract. I like the meeting of the steel and the brick. I'm really thrilled at the results just because it done it. The mason's like it. It does serve this real structural purpose and it tightens up a lot of details. Those of us who use brick veneer understand their corners and times when things come together where you're like how are we going to hide this? This does that. If the board were solid yes on one of these options and I'm hearing some support for one, we would just propose to apply this everywhere it occurs when we go to the development or view board to final approval. I would suggest a design competition for the background. I mean that gets public involvement. It gets people interested in the project. It makes it understandable publicly. Maybe you could work with a Vermont castle in the arts. I don't think you should have to do that. As part of the project it would be interesting to produce some variety so all these things would look the same. So the screen is, the representation is just a placeholder of what it amounts to? I'm suggesting that there's a lot of flexibility there and I think as with all the public art art conveys meaning and what that meaning is really ought to be up to the city to express if that makes sense. How much do you estimate those panels costs, the fiberglass panels? I haven't priced them out but you know 5000 bucks maybe, they're not that terribly expensive. This art, the art that's painted on it would probably be bolder and meant to show more. But you know this would go from these to that more restrained kind of look which probably plays better with the storefront and some of the other stuff we've got going on black metal wise. I think the idea of the gray and subtle look of that as a background is great. You already have the center art in it and then you've got the greenery around it and to try to make this stand out it's competing too much with everything else so I think the more subtle it is draw the attention to the other components better. I think you're right and you can sort of see here this background with just a plain gray screen behind it and really all it does is it hides the precast parts in a kind of a meaningful way. That's kind of what I was going to ask my question. So in section if I was to look through that thing I'm going to see of the ramp going up to the next level. And so the scrim allows so I don't. So you don't see this those transitions. And then you wouldn't have to put railings at two elevations at some sort of change. The design is subtle in color and everything they're not going to clash with each other even if they're quite different. I agree. And Montpelier really has a tradition. How many projects have we reviewed for art on the streets? A lot. A number. Yeah. It's been something that Montpelier is doing. I shouldn't remember the name of the architect. I just wanted to add in this is relatively new at last week's city council meeting. The city council adopted a public art master plan in the creative of a city arts commission. So they would probably be a logical group that would guide a process for something like this. So that is as you know more public art is coming into play and there's a plan coming together for how to deal with it. That's great. Thank you Bill. We could get some graffiti people to do it. Well you know they might be what goes in. They painted the back side of the Champlain transportation thing and they did. They had a bunch of street artists going to do it. It was amazing what they came up with. Some of those guys are really good. Really good. Yeah. I think that's gone legit. Banksy selling paintings for millions of dollars and then chopping them up. That was pretty good. That's short. Where's more chopped up than it was to encourage expansion of the area. It was one last image I wanted to bring up. Sorry I'm having trouble navigating here. I'm going to do this. Yeah I really do like one because it can provide some variety and it looks and it makes structural sense. Just cross pieces made no structural sense to me. Okay. I'm bringing this image up for one purpose only and that's to show what the possibility of putting a solar array on the roof of this garage might look like. And what we've presented is that the project is designed so that it can accommodate this kind of thing. I don't think it's in our initial budget to provide this solar panel but I'm going to float the idea out there that this is how we would go about it which would be like a solar carport that did not extend out to the edges of the building but only covered the two center bays and that would do a couple of things. The apparent mass in the building. I brought this up because I think there were some comments by the public who were curious about this and whether or not it was something we still were interested in and would love to have your input on whether or not you think this is appropriate. But at the same time I'm not really asking you to take action on this because I don't think we're offering solar panels coming out of the gates but I did include this image just for the purposes of having that conversation. How much taller it looks quite a bit taller than the corner stairwells? Yeah, well it's going over the ramp in a way that it's 8 feet at one end so the end we're looking at is up 13 feet. That's one issue with doing it is that you're going to see it. It's going to be up there. Will you see it? Like if I'm walking along State Street looking up I'm going to realize it's pulled back enough Yeah, you'd probably see it. It probably wouldn't jump out as anything outrageous but it ain't right. I just wanted to show that to you as part of the conversation but not necessarily a central issue for this evening. Is it possible to construct a building so this is really easy to put up? It's possible for it to be structurally sound enough to take the extra weight for us to have the weld plates and stuff in the tops of these shear walls so that if the city elects to do this because you get a grant or somebody wants then the building would take it. It's going to have conduits going up to the roof and everything. Even to the point of the fastening so that it would be really easy to fasten it. Right. That's what I'm thinking. Is that we'd have the buried weld plates in the tops of these precast panels so that somebody wanted to attach this they could. Anyhow, it was sort of a sidebar issue but I wanted to be responsive on that. It was also something I wanted to talk about because I think this gets it. It's been mentioned in a couple of public hearings that people don't understand how our images could show the garage being taller than the bridge. But it looks shorter from certain perspectives. And I just want to point out that the reason that happens is because the floor plane of the garage is 10 feet below the western abutment of this bridge. So we're starting out in a fairly deep hole to begin with. The bridge is 25 feet tall but it starts from a point that's 10 feet taller than the building's first floor. And just by virtue of being in the foreground the bridge does look bigger in some of these issues but we're confident that these models are accurately representing the buildings as proposed. With that said, I don't have any more formal. I think we had three things to talk about how this project connected to the bike path, what to do about that arch, and what to do about those decorative openings. Those were the big three takeaways I came with from our last meeting. But everything's on the table and I've got everything with me if anybody wants to talk about any particular arrangement. Quick question, what's the difference of the bridge over the north branch? What's at grade on the other side, on the parking garage side of the north branch? What's the difference between the grade there and the crossing over the tracks? Well it all kind of comes up to about 528 at the bridge abutment. So the railroad track and the bike path are all sort of up around 527, 528 right there at the west end of that bridge. And then it drops down to natural grade of like 519 and we've graded some areas and that was the sort of pit behind the garages. That's excavated down to 518. So there's a 10 foot drop. Please go back to the view you had before. You just had your cursor. The one further right there. How deep is that? Well the floor elevation is 518. And the top of it is... The top of this wall here in this location is going to be I think 525 right at the corner of the building. So that's about a 6, 7, 8 foot hole there. Right. At this little edge of space is down in a hole about 6, 7 feet. And then the tracks and everything are subtly rising up to 528 right in here. The normal top of the bank is at roughly 518 right on. So this was all designed to just be a top of bank elevation so if it ever flooded, the waters would come in and go back out without needs of pumps. You're not putting any trees in there or anything? We are actually proposing quite a bit of landscaping in there but we didn't show it in our renderings for purposes of this is what the landscape plan looks like or what the building looks like with the actual proposed birches in front of them. And what James has done is he's made those birches a little bit transparent so you can kind of read behind why this is tough. The landscape plan would show the birches. Yeah. So you can see the trees here are ghosted in in the foreground and then you see an initial growth of the lines going up the green screen. Here's those benches again up on the boardwalk and these little individual art panels along here. And you can also see here where we've programmed some circular openings into the green screen and the plan stuff is kind of growing around them. I have two sort of questions. One is this bridge a placeholder? Is that something that you've designed? Are you responsible for this pedestrian bridge or is that just? The bridge across the river is a separate project designed by STANTEC and already approved. I think it's going to be constructed soon. So no, we did design the ramp coming up from the hilly lot to the boardwalk. And then I guess what sort of been other issues and now I'm beginning to sort of focus a little bit on the cornices and sort of what the materiality of that horizontal bands are. We'd just like to hear a little bit more about what that is. Before we move on to that I was wondering if there's somebody in the audience who had a question about something that was being talked about. Introduce yourself. I'm Meredith Kittfield. I live here in Montpelier and I'm interested in lighting. How is this going to be lit up and I don't see any lights or posts or and also I'm concerned that it's going to be adding to light pollution in our city so I'm wondering what kind of lighting you're going to be using so that it's directed downwards as opposed to letting it just go up to the sky. Thank you. Go ahead. All lighting for the project is LED lighting and all of them have what they call control photometrics so they're down casting shielded lights. We have typically on the sort of street like portions of the project which includes the hotel and a drive in from Taylor Street and then back out to state and all the public ways is this type SL1 here which is a very traditional looking housing with an LED with LED guts so this is a really beautiful elegant type fixture that's going to be most of the site lighting here and those do have control of photometrics. We did submit a plan showing point by point the values for that sorry. In addition to that there are the light fixtures inside the garage itself. Sorry. I knew I had a 50-50 chance there. I think if you went back to where you found the SL1 I think they were other ones that I've seen already. Yeah well some of these are just wall mounted these have around doors and stuff like that. They're nothing special. The SL8 is out in the back though area right by the boardwalk. Yeah it closes down. This is a these are ground mounted lights that are meant to shine up and I assume they're pointed at the artwork. Actually I did the lights. James Finley shares landscape architect the idea for these lights were to create a glow down in those flood gullies that we've been talking about with the birch plantings. They'd be pointed horizontally so they would give a glow if you looked over but we've done the photometric plan on it and there's no light creep from it as they're protected by the 6 foot retaining or 8 foot retaining wall and the building on the other side so there'll be no light creep from them. They'll just create a nice glow that you'd look over the side of the railing at. All the other light fixtures are cut off fixtures and so they've been designed to meet the security foot candle minimals with no night sky issues. Talk a little bit about the color temperature that you're using. We're going to be using all of the yellow 3000 Kelvin so it won't be the white blue LED. It'll be nice sort of yellowish. That's right to the MR-16s of the old halogen world. The fixtures within the garage and then on top. Those are a little different. I was looking for those. I did show those to you at the last meeting with the ceiling mounted light fixtures. Oh boy, I think I got to look for Could I just make one observation? This is Meredith Kittfield again. So as I walk along the bike path currently, Stonecutter's Way has one type of light fixture and then I go over by the high school and that section has a totally different kind of light fixture, outdoor light fixture. Has there been any thought to kind of integrate the lighting for the bike path so that it's somewhat consistent or is that not a good theory? The bike path as it has been designed has being a fixture and so the idea is that will be consistently along the bike path as part of that standard process. So we use those foot candles within our photometrics survey but there is a consistent light going through the New Taylor Street and out in the new bike path. Which kind of fixture? The ones on Stonecutter's? I'm not sure. It's a Vega shoebox but this is what they call them so it's a very simple rectangle about 51 from the high school. Okay, just curious. Thank you. Thank you. Then we've got a mouse. Make this go a little bit easier. We go faster. Ah, there is one. Alright, thank you. Thank you, Mike. This was the light fixture we talked about in the last meeting which is the ceiling round in light fixture. That goes up between the flutes of the garage deck and that's an LED fixture as well and it is vandal resistant. The question is asked. Depends on which mounting system you use. We wouldn't use the long pendants. Top deck is Vega or that's something else? The top deck is this same hole has a pole mounted fixture for it. It's a little different than the street lighting. Like a gooseneck off the pole? I should be able to find it here now that I found the right folder. Here's the back. There, it shows you the side mount. On all the hardware poles, everything is black. That would be my choice, yeah. It comes in black, silver, white, or bronze I think. But I was thinking black. Yeah, all the rest of the side lighting would be black too. It seems more compatible with the rest of the structure. So after you talked to Ben's question about materiality of the project in Cornus in particular that you were mentioning, could you address I'm pretty sure we asked for options on the picket fence on the lower level as well. Okay. The general material pallet is the standard common brick. The string trims and aprons that you see are the Vermont Granite. And then we were going to have this made out of either a glass reinforced concrete or an EFIS just because we didn't want to have a lot of weight up there. And this is a pretty big section, this Cornus. So that would be built up. I mean, GFRC would definitely prefer to have an EFIS. Yeah, right. Durability wise too, I think that's probably true. There's no advantage to having the insulation be involved really. But we would have these prefabred and bolted on the top of the wall. And then you're capping it. Well then there's an aluminum coping column to go over the top of the wall of it just as a weather course. And then we have the... And it will be painted to be a similar speckle to the Granite? The GFRC. It's a GFRC, yes. Like an Apollo mix type paint. I thought you were talking about the coping. I think the coping, in my mind the coping was just going to be black. But yes. I care more about the big thick visual band similar to the Vermont Granite. Yes. But obviously to get something two feet tall with a projection of about two feet for the 800 feet of perimeter or whatever, it could get really expensive. So we are definitely using the Granite where you're most likely to be able to see it, put your hands on it. Have you looked into polymer composite? Instead of glass reinforced concrete? Yeah, either one of those I think would be appropriate. But it's really going to come down to what fits our budget best. And then the green screen, I have a piece of that. But that's going to come with a factory finish on it. It's kind of a dark green. Regarding your sort of like steps and why you kind of broken it up horizontally the way you have, is there a logic to it? Well, there's a couple pieces of logic. One is the language suggested by the zoning ordinance, which I know doesn't necessarily apply in this design control district, but the intent of it. Something was brought up by one of the neighbors who popped into one of these meetings. If you read the standard broadly speaking, the goal of that was to make sure that you didn't have one section that was longer than 48 feet long. And that these things kind of read as individual three-story blocks of the sort of vegetable spacing between them. It was very much an intention to sort of repeat more the scale and rhythm of downtown Montpelier, which tends to be three, four-story basement buildings. And they tend to be one business-wide historically. I was speaking more specifically to the cornice as much as I am interested in. And as far as how much up and down it goes, the reflection of its relationship to finished grade. So here it's more or less a sort of guardrail. But the ramp is falling way behind this. So having them step up and down a little bit instead of one consistent top line was part of that effort to sort of, again, kind of be suggestive of individual building blocks with sort of green space between. So this landing over here is a little bit higher than this landing. So, you know, the whole thing is popped up a bit. So that this is, again, this parapet is kind of at a handrail height on this end of the building. The green screens are going most of the reaching. It was James. That was Liam. Okay. Thank you, Liam. So we talked about different growth stages as well. Is that something that you have represented? What we wanted to do was show here sort of year three, four rather than the architectural renders which show it sort of fully grown. We thought this was a nice sort of stage to look at it. And again, I was talking last time, we met about the idea of the way these vines kind of find their way up. The green screen is actually being kind of a beautiful thing outside of just having a sort of one solid texture of green. And so, yeah, we like how it sort of climbs up to the top and then sets its twines up there and then kind of come down and then we'll fill in around the aperture. Greg's made a green screen there. We wanted to look good from day one, day two, day, you know, year one, year two, year three. So we think we've come up with a nice solution. I have another question. Go ahead. This is Meredith Kittfield. I was wondering, can some kind of banner be hung over that artwork? Let's say we're having a special festival in Montpelier and you wanted to put three banners up. Can you actually put something over that artwork? Yeah. It would be temporary. It would be like a flag, some kind of a flag or a banner. Well, I think it's a great idea. I mean, we can certainly design the hardware in there and receive it, you know, some kind of U-bolts or something that people could hang on to. These panels sit back from the main face of the masonry like four inches. They're back, they're just in relief a little bit to give this wall some texture here and sort of express these pilasters. And that was meant to give each piece a frame, you know. But that gives you a space in which you could work if you wanted to do something like. A lot of the people who make the same scrims that we're talking about here make precisely those kinds of things for like New York Fashion Week. Yeah. That kind of stuff where they just cover the whole side of a building with something temporarily. I don't have it in my budget to provide the temporary art, but I don't see any reason why this couldn't be sort of set up to receive that. No problem. Could you hang something from that top lip, that white lip? We probably you rather didn't do that. Only because that's the sort of beginning of our water proofing system and generally people start getting up there and drilling holes and stuff from the top of the water. This would be well it'd be something a little more, it wouldn't necessarily be plastic. It'd be a composite material. Either fiberglass reinforced cement or there are some polymer based ones that are solid but we're not talking about phypon or anything. If that means anything to you. So can somebody actually walk over to that lip up at the top or is that off limits? Well at this end and this end it would be the top of the wall, the top of the parapet would be about 42 inches off the deck. Oh. So it's kind of like a barrier. When you're parked on level four and a half you'll be able to stand right behind this wall and look at it downtown right there. Oh. And this is level four down here, five feet lower than you will. So cocktail hour right? People use these garages for all sorts of things you know. Fireworks viewing. I remember when Ben and Jerry used to show movies on top of Cherry Street garage. That's right. It was a good time. So how about the good fencing? Yeah. We have a cut sheet. This is, I'm just cutting this because this is our retaining wall. We should talk about that before we park company. What did you need? What did you label that thing? I think it was just called railing detail. It should be in that pack for today. Yeah I saw you guys were just talking about it. It's just a very simple sort of steel square railing. Yeah. I'm sorry. I've got a couple of things to do. He was in the last one. I mean worst case we could turn the lights off and look at the hard copy. The electrical charging stations. I don't want to forget that. Excuse me. Can I just ask how many electric charging stations are currently budgeting? Make sure to state your name. Sorry. Laura Rose Montpelier. How many charging stations are currently in the budget for the garage? Well, we've got two pieces. We've got two data points. One is I believe that the city ordinance now requires so many charging stations per parking space. Based on that I think we believe I came up with a quantity of 20. Now the city manager and assistant city manager I believe went up and toured the project in St. Albans and the operators in St. Albans said that that would be too many. So it's up for you to tell us how many you want because otherwise we'll provide 20 of them. And I'm not sure there's some policy level decisions that have to be made like are those exclusive use spaces which I would suggest they shouldn't be. And you know if you're not going to use them right away do you want to spend the money or would you rather install them as they get absorbed. But to the best of our knowledge we have to present 20 unless somebody tells us that it's okay to do fewer. And how many are currently paid for in the current budget. Well I don't know that any of it's sort of given a line item in the budget but there's been a sort of generous equipment budget right along. I think that also includes like ticket taking equipment and stuff as well. So I can't answer. I did hear that the number was four and that seems in other ways so I'm wondering. I didn't know there was a number in the ordinance until I stumbled across it. And then once we did it was the answer. Twenty are required by current law. Thank you. A suggestion on the charging station I know some of the space is flexible to state for use but if you install the infrastructure the wiring for the charging stations and so it's just a matter of holding it on. If you maybe install ten and you have ten that are easily the access rules had a class of fully handicapped and they had one that's called adaptable. So that the plates and everything are in place. That's what I'm kind of thinking about if you need the extra ones I don't know whether they all be in one place or not. The only thing they have to be is they have to be above elevation 528 so they're going to happen on level one and above exclusively because they've got to be protected from flood inundation. We have done a lot of these in our hospitality work with hotels and generally what we've done in those circumstances is had an outside vendor install them and the outside vendor makes a little money every time somebody uses it. That's similar to the ATM machines at a gas station. It's not really a bank they don't really have anything to do with it. I'm probably convinced that there's going to be more demand for them in the future. That's the only thing I'm thinking of. I hope you're right and I think your ordinance anticipates that. I think the policy level decision is really would you want to make those spaces exclusively for the use of electric vehicles because if you do then there's 20 spaces in a lot if they're not being used. They're being used every day great you know. But that's a policy level decision. It's not really a design issue. I know this was a brand that we liked because it worked with both types of battery formats and had the built in accounting software and stuff like that. You know you'd need 10 of these and we'd probably put a couple on each level. I'm just saying extend the wiring so it's really easy to add because that's certainly going to happen. And this is pay for service. You pay for the power yeah. I assume I don't the city would get killed if they didn't. It's tied into the city's meter. Well the specialty consultant on the hardware that runs the garage I think in my experience parking is one thing and charging is another because I think probably what will happen is when you come in you'll get a ticket and when you leave you'll pay and if you need to charge your car while you're there you'll do that transaction right at the post. It's my thought. How it's operated isn't really a design consideration it's more of a policy decision. I don't see any reason why the city should give the power away. You can set those up just with a sticker credit card and it'll charge for whatever power you use. Bill are the ones being by City Hall are they pretty well used all the time for charging? Just didn't know if the microphone can catch the way over there. Yeah you know they're restricted for EV vehicles only so I don't monitor them carefully. They're third party revenue at this point so we're not monitoring their use but you know just anecdotally I'd say I see cars there more often than not but I wouldn't say it's 100%. We're thinking to have them. Our thinking has evolved recently to say we should have more and yeah the only reason I'm hesitating is we're getting advice from other cities that are running garages that 20 might be an awful lot so how you want to dispose of that issue if it's really an issue for this board or not. Again the number of charging stations can be changed at a later date with the infrastructure and the number of those would be a point for the DRB to take up anyway. Good. Just for the record I mean this is the retaining wall system that we're calling for it's a modular unit system with a nice stress base on it. It is not a cast of concrete wall. I don't know if you want to say anything about it James. That is the wall we're proposing. This wall will tie into the bike path bridge so they'll be a bit of working out as they presented a unit block wall so we'll hopefully use ours. Is the design you show for the bike path bridge the one that I don't know whether a decision has been made on that or not. I mean the bike path bridges that we have before are still trust. Right. Now I think that's just something that we gleaned from the civil drawings we didn't have any of your options to show. I mean obviously that's not part of our project so we're not asking for approval on that. I just thought maybe the city would know what the plan view layout is from the stand-tech. I might understand that the base block is sort of showing the upper left hand corner there on the last slide you just had up and then there are what I'm seeing on the bottom is a variety of faces that you could slide on to that. Correct. And the one you have chosen for the face is the bottom left hand corner. Yes, and the idea is that we get it in a color to sort of match to the granite. The idea is that it would be as close as we could get to that granite. And I'm assuming that has some sort of faux stone texture to it. That's it, yeah. There's sort of levels of things like that. You can see the two different levels of texture there quite well in that, so our goal is to match the natural stone as close as possible. And do you build the whole thing with just the raw blocks and then put the faces on later? Yeah, there's like, you can see actually in this, that's exactly right, so you set these base blocks and then you can slide on the veneer pieces. That's a new one from Unilock. Yeah, I've never seen that. And I guess the idea is if something bad happens you can replace it. You can pop it out and then the other idea is sort of you could articulate it the way they show and that sort of the other piece with the sort of more texture could help you proportionally break up that wall a little bit more. Are these fascinating either with mortar or are they just loose? They will have a structural engineer review, obviously, whatever the final detail is. But I believe that it's mostly their gravity block, but they will have tie backs and then some tipping. Yeah, they'll be pulled back. They'll have dead men pull back with concrete. I don't know if that's our issue or not, but I'm curious. We don't have a lot of surcharge. It sounds like there's a big slope coming down from behind this wall, but you do have with a railroad, you know, you've got some pretty dynamic loading. So we just have to make sure that the structural case of truckload and granite doesn't vibrate the thing into submission. It's less than occasional. It's become more Well, I'm happy if they're busy. Yeah, that's great. They're loose ends here. I was still flipping for the picket. Oh, the fence. Sorry. It's on the hard copies. I did see that. Well, let me just say this. I'm not a fan. I think it's not the way to go. I'd like to see something either horizontal or rated off. Some other treatment would be much, much better. We don't love the horizontal because it sometimes can get the latter effect and have people climb up and over it. But you have that going on here in all these railings. I think that's just a render artistic delivery with the rendering perhaps. The way we've designed it is up and down. I understand. One detail would show them vertical. Yeah, sorry. Let me find that. Whether it's horizontal or not, if it's rated off, it seems like the picket is a little... So you're saying maybe a mesh panel or something? Yeah. Would you prefer that? It just seems like the picket is a little bit of an afterthought. I mean, if you really brought the rest of the project up and listened to many things, it seems like the picket needs some attention. And then there was some debate as to whether we actually needed them. Some believed that we needed them. Some don't. Are we invaded by some sort of... Did the code anything more to the 30th drop would require? Understood. That. And so I wouldn't use it anywhere else. There was a security... Yeah, I thought we were talking about... All along the elevation of the building. I was just talking about the safety railings. I'm sorry, could you ask again? I was digging through this file. Curious about where the need for some of the picket fencing, especially at ground level, is coming from. Security at the bottom level. You know, I think just in talking to the police and stuff, there was some concern about keeping people from wandering into the... I don't know how I got into that. From people wandering into the garage from back. But, sorry. Yeah, so we were trying to keep people out of the lowest level in the garage. That's their primary function. Right. That was all of it. Can I speak to that just real quick? Please. So my understanding is that they're going to have security cameras at certain locations, like at the entrances. But they wouldn't necessarily have security cameras along that whole bottom level where the fencing is. But they need to be able to let the water in and out so they can't just put a wall there. And then they have security cameras like the stairwells and the pedestrian entrances. But they need to be able to have some idea of who's going in and who's going out. I think that's the reason they had the fencing. Just not finding that cut sheet. We do have paper copies. It just sits in here somewhere where there are a lot of places to look. And I think somebody had another question. Okay. Hi. Elizabeth Parker here again. So I talked about this at the end of two meetings ago. And it's just a little point, but I have an editorial part of myself. And if things don't get changed then I'm concerned that they will be this way. So my concern is again that handicapped parking, I believe in this diagram, is shown in the northeast corner not close to the elevator, which is in the northwest corner. And I think it would be great if those could be contiguous. Am I incorrect or? There's the elevator and here are some handicapped spaces. Okay. Because I'm looking at a different drawing here. So maybe this is out of date. It could be. But generally they're between grid lines one and two on the low. Perfect. adjacent to the stair tower. That makes me very happy. We're showing. It's a stair tower and it's in the northwest corner where there's an elevator as well. That's the elevator right there. Perfect. Okay, good. Moving on. And so then my other question and maybe I missed it just now because I was thinking about this previous question. On the east side on the ground level where the fence is going to be, is it going to be... I know that on the northeast side there will be a fence that can be opened up should cars need to leave for some reason. But on the east side is there going to be the ability to have an opening fence still, which was discussed at one point on the ground floor so that for instance if there was a need to have an event that you could go underneath and have some sheltering for a community event or some expansion of the market or some such thing. Where is that stand now? Recall that conversation and I don't see any reason why it can't happen, but I don't think it's illustrated on this plan. Alright, I just think that it might be a nice feature for... We're in agreement about providing it. I just try to keep track of everything we talked about. We were focused on this entrance here. Right. Which got you sort of out to the bike path and over to the main street. But you're talking about one down and greater on the corner. On the east side. It would be the door where these openings are. Yeah. So I'm just putting that out there as being a feature that... You just need to put a symbol there indicating that that's an operable gate. Alright, thank you. Thank you. Can you go back to the image of the deck in the back? I didn't see where the alleyway ends up from the front. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand you. Where does the... From the alleyway between the hotel and the garage. Okay, I see it. I see why it didn't show up. It doesn't show up in that image though. It's hard to read in that image. I think in this image it's going along the top of the wall here. Okay. And turning the corner. It's a little hard to see at this resolution. No, I see where it is. It just doesn't show clearly at all in the image you were looking at. Yeah, I think it's just... I'm sorry, I can't get this thing. I just want to say again that decorating that and signing it so it's an attractive space for people in a welcoming way I think people tend not to like to go down alleyways even if they're lit. So breaking up and making a nice entry on the front side of the hotel. We have green screen wrapping around that sort of southern part of that right there. Right there. So it will enhance at least half of it. Wonderful. So as you come between the buildings after about 40 feet you come out from behind this and then it's open into this garden. In the footprint of the building at the ground level we've got some openings from the fitness center to the alley as well so that as you're walking down there you get some visual relief. But I agree, I mean that's a... those are tight quarters. Not everybody's going to like it. Most we can do to keep the garage from sort of being a barrier to getting to the bike pass there ever. That's correct. Well, there's this which I think will function really well for hotel guests. You know there's some outdoor patio area and the swimming pool is down adjacent to this space as well. But don't forget as I pointed out earlier on sheet C1 the design has been improved to include that bike path connection through the Haney lot and now to Stand Street there as well. Which I think people who aren't staying at the hotel are going to be much more likely to use. Maybe it's a space for some more creative kind of. So you see the bike path indicate here all the way down to here and then, you know, so I think that then you get on the ramp and you come up to it. And both there and on the entrance to the other one some graphic that's big enough. Yes. People know that they're headed that that's the way to head to there. Something you can see from State Street that would make sense. Yeah, you're designing to couple it apart. I'm not a designer. I think wayfinding signage is important. We do have a plan which I don't know if this board will get involved in that but probably. They had a traffic plan. I noticed the package you sent home was more than 65 pages. That was combination of the new stuff and the old stuff. I thought some of the pictures really did a good job of showing what it might look like at night. That's the planning printer's fault. I was looking for a plan with the traffic signs on it about seeing it. Laura Rose Montpiler, I was wondering if I could ask about the width of the walkway between the hotel and the parking garage how wide it is for that. The buildings are 10 feet face to face and then we're showing an 8 foot wide walkway. And the walkway on the north side of the garage how wide is that walkway? Well the constricting point would be the ramp and I believe the ramp is 6 feet wide. And does that north walkway still put pedestrians in the path of cars entering and exiting the garage? Well if we go back to that civil engineering plan I had in this particular case there are crosswalks from State Street to the main entrance of the garage. There's a major crosswalk here and also a crosswalk here. So pedestrians are going to cross vehicle traffic at control points there and there after which they can go down here and through here and attach to bike paths without having any interactions with cars. But my question is if you're coming from the east side of that north walkway heading west towards the new hotel on the north side of the garage wouldn't you encounter cars entering and exiting and you'd have to cross that to get to the protected walkway out of State Street. If you're talking right here? Right there the entrance to the garage. Yeah that garage that secondary entrance is only there operationally for emergency purposes. I think we learned from talking to the folks at St. Almond's that every once in a while a car gets stalled or somebody gets in here and they can't figure out how to pay and they just lose it. Whatever it can get blocked and so the city needs to be able to open up a secondary way to get people out. Operationally this is not meant to be used on a regular basis. Wouldn't they have to cross the western north entrance to get to the walkway to get out to State Street? I think anybody coming from the Haney lot is going to be going down through. No I'm saying if you come in by the bank in between the Christ Church and the bank and you want to head over to the edge of the Haney lot or behind Christ Church wouldn't you encounter the traffic entering and exiting the garage? Right there you would. Yeah at this crosswalk. And what would be there to protect pedestrian? Yeah I have a traffic control plan I just have to find it. We have it showing stop signs to like. I know there's stops extra dangerous for pedestrians because it can be confusing about whose turn it is to drive and you're watching the cars, you're watching the pedestrians but that can be quite dangerous. And again Mary just brought it up again that that's more of a DRB issue in terms of the access as opposed to the design review but we'll certainly make a note of that for the DRB committee to take a look at. There are regulations related to pedestrian safety so I'm hoping those are all in under consideration with the planning stage thank you. So we can add it to them. When should the DRB meet? Monday the death. Just coming Monday. Steve I think maybe it would be a really good idea if we as design review sent an older head mayor of this just got some talking points that are about items to be forwarded to the development. If you don't end up with a final recommendation tonight we can just make sure we agree on all the points that you want me to bring to them that aren't on the recommendation form. Can somebody outline kind of a schedule on this? I'm getting really confused as to when do you need final approval Well I mean we'll get it when we've earned it I guess but if everything went well for the city I think we would like to have final permits before the voters go to the poll on November 6th You won't get final permits at least have final decisions or verbal decisions because you know there was a very strong goal to try to get this under construction in December a lot of pieces are going to have to fall in place before that can be a reality but having done this for 33 years now or whatever I can't make such predictions I mean it's entirely up to you how fast we go. I feel like we've answered the substantive issues that were brought up before. It sounds like we still have an issue on the fencing but I would hope that wouldn't be a reason to hold up the project because we're happy to continue to talk about it I think we need to know that there are major design issues before the voters decide whether they want to do this. And I believe there's somebody else who wants to Well I'm just concerned it sounds like you might be edging towards wrapping up and I never heard a point where you were asking for public comment. So is this the time you know or I'm happy to wait. Not go right ahead and question yourself as well. This is I'm Sandy Wittstume I live at 14 Loomis Street and before I make general comments I wanted to say personally how excited I am that we might be getting a kind of good sized hotel in town. I think it's going to make us as a city able to do a lot more things culturally and for business than we have before I don't know if I've said this to this group but I happen to meet an independent contractor for national life from Maine and she was brought here for a week and she was put up in Waterbury along with 60 other people and they never ever came to downtown Montpelier in the whole week and I was shocked that is a city we're losing this kind of business opportunities. I'm actually speaking tonight on behalf of the Montpelier Heritage Group I have a couple of questions because I've not become before this group before although we've had other members here. I'm going to first ask questions that I think are specifically a design review and then in interest of time tell me if my other questions which are going to be at the end if you would rather that they go to development review board. The first question is about the drawings, the renderings that I've seen. It seems to me they're applicable for a couple of reasons. It's permitted use downtown but we're trying to understand the gateway relationship of this building both coming along Memorial Drive but also it's kind of on the gateway down State Street towards a capital complex. I actually don't know that I've seen any from the ground renderings except of the bike path and I'm totally wondering what this looks like from Memorial Drive. If I were in a car driving by and would I see the State House? Have those renderings been done? And I miss them. Do you miss them? They've been presented on a couple of occasions. Okay that's fine. I'd love to see them sometime. Also from State Street have you folks looked at what this building is going to look like behind the Episcopal Church because for instance coming down Elm Street that's quite a big important view in the city. We presented views of that as well during the approval process for the hotel. I don't know that we've revived those of late but from the ground level? Yes. I'm trying to find them as we talk but that's fair. I know that's kind of hard. The other thing is typically balloons are flown and I mentioned that at a meeting a while ago. I think it was a DRB meeting. Have you indeed flown some balloons so that we can all see exactly the correlation between the renderings and reality? No. That was a city decision. I'll let them discuss that. I believe flying balloons is a public hearing and it would have been warned. We were told not to do it. Bill, there was a question about flying balloons in the city's stance on that. We felt we were confident with the renderings as far as height and all that. The various things we didn't think the balloon was a necessary consultant with our folks and didn't think it was necessary from a permitting perspective or everything else. We had the information there's telephone poles there that are approximately the same height as the garage and they were pretty easy to look at. That was our call on. You've got the light, man. People ready for a light? Right next to your arm, Bill. The parking garage is coming right through here. I think this was taken from the Shell station. Even the church towers. This way over here. I'm just going to suggest again that if the city were willing to fly some balloons and I know it's difficult because you're both an applicant and a reviewer in this situation but if you could fly balloons for three days then people driving by could actually all see for themselves. This was done by someone else besides Correct. That was something that was presented by Stephen Whitaker at an earlier hearing. Another question. I hadn't really become aware of the alley until tonight. There must be some other accommodation for hotel guests with their little rolly wheels trying to get to the hotel besides having to be outside on the alley, I hope. That's one question. In general I've talked about this at the DRB meeting. I'm totally confused. It seems to me we're trying to develop clear streets and clear walkways in the city. When I grew up it was a village of back cuts, back shortcuts, and a lot of them are gone as we're trying to make the city more clear as an urban pattern. I think I heard, Bill, maybe you can correct me, we're building a street out to between the garage. Is it going to be a street or is an alley between the garage and State Street? Well, it's a complex of things. In the first case there's a legal easement that's been granted to the city over Capitol Plaza to create essentially a private road that extends from Taylor Street through the Capitol Plaza site and then back out to State Street. Anybody who's experienced the parking area back there now knows it's a little chaotic in terms of how the parking spaces are laid out and circulation is kind of ad hoc. It's sort of what's left of between spaces. This will organize that into sort of a clear circulation pattern connecting those two major streets. Essentially the trip from the Haney lot to the garage is similar although that's not going to be something that's used on a regular basis for access to the garage. It's really pedestrian bicycles, secondary access and other uses. Essentially what you see today is what's going to be there. In both cases. Then in that case the city is creating more of a non-conforming lot and it has no street access except by an alley with an easement over it. The zoning ordinance allows for lots to be connected by easements to the public way as long as they have the right dimensions and we have met that requirement. Then this is functioning as a way in and out for 300 and however many vehicles. They're not going to be there for 24 hours so it'll be more than 700 trips a day probably. Well we submitted a traffic analysis I'll let that stand on its own but there's 206 spaces back there now that are used every day. So this is like we're taking a cornfield and doing this. This is a parking lot down and building this garage will plant some existing parking lots which offsets the impact a little bit but in the main by providing this parking it makes Christchurch's project more likely it makes all the downtown business owners have access to our parking lots. So I just want to say that overall it feels like what is now a pretty sketchy road for Northfield Savings Bank between that and the church is going to be more of a road particularly people who are not from the city trying to find a way to use the parking garage and it seems to me it needs to be a street. That's a personal thought but if it is it needs to have a sidewalk on both sides. It needs to have safe parking itself. I'm wondering if you're going to lose some of the parking spaces that are in that kind of alley now. Well the plans have been submitted and the numbers have been counted. I mean we're going to have 348 spaces at the garage and we're going to have 55 spaces left on the surface of the campus plaza. That does not include the remainder of parking on the Haney lot. Yeah and then that was one of my questions are you thinking you're going to lose on the Haney lot? 40. Okay. Then my other I think pretty strictly design review question is about the solar collectors which I had not heard of before tonight. I think it's a great idea but in my experience with the Vermont towns and then actually other states if an owner is thinking of having a second phase that actually is supposed to be part of the first phase of permitting. So I don't know why you would mention that you might do that in the future and that you're building for that potential but that's not being permitted now. Because somebody in the public asked about it and we want to be you know we make all our projects solar ready. Yeah but then it should be part of the permit process right? That's how it's typically done. We can deal with that if I don't know that the city is committing to build it today. Can I address that? Yeah. So the as zoning administrator if that were to go up it would be something that they would need to get another permit for before those were put on. Absolutely. My understanding and correct me if I'm wrong this was sort of like I said a response to a public question as to how it might look and to show where they could the infrastructure so it could be done but it wouldn't get. Usually if there's a leading towards the future something it's better if it's included up front. Just pointing that out. It's better to have it done and say okay yep it would work or not work. My understanding is it wouldn't put you over the height limitations. No that wouldn't be a problem. So I don't know why it would be an issue. It wouldn't increase your FAR. There's two issues and one is that the city is maxed out on their net zero metering situation so they can't necessarily just use a net metered solution for this and I think the other is budget wise which it wasn't part of the original charge and we've had to add some other features here to get this to where everybody finds it acceptable. Obviously what we want to include in our thinking always whether or not it happens right away is something that's really up to the city. We just want to know that our design will accommodate it. I'm just simply pointing out if it were a private owner making this application they would probably be asked to be more specific about it even if it were a future phase is my experience. Okay well I'm trying not to be vague I guess the thing is we've included it in our thinking because we didn't want to shut the door on it. It came up as a question from the public and we explored the possibility but I haven't been told that I have an extra I have a million dollars to spend on it. Alright well it's a question of future phase. Then and these are just things I want to ask to make sure because I don't know how tall is the building in number of levels from the very lowest level of parking to the top level is it four? That's what I heard. Well there are essentially but because the floor level is slow it kind of goes up in half increments. I guess that it's tallest it's four and a half stories. Four and a half. Okay just curious and I know it has to be 20 feet back from the top of the bank is that right? And there's absolutely no construction within 15 feet of the top of the bank for the riparian buffers. That's an open question. I'm sorry. So that if you come to the DRB hearing. Is that a DRB issue? I've been dealing with the water setback and the riparian buffers then it's not within the design review regulations. I was guessing that's what I put it right at the end. Thank you. Alright thanks. Thank you. Laura Rose again could I just ask about from Main Street when you're looking across the bicycle bridge wouldn't the garage obstruct the view of the capital there if I'm on Main Street at Shaw's and I'm looking wouldn't the garage especially with solar panels the towers itself you said the garage was four and a half stories the towers are taller than that and the solar panels are even taller than that should we get that far. So now looking across from Shaw's across the river I don't believe I can see the capital anymore. It is a beautiful view from Main Street. We submitted a visual analysis it's in the package what's interesting is the existing capital clause is six stories tall and so this proposed hotel is five stories tall and the garage is four and a half stories tall. We took a photograph from across the street there on Main Street looking down the biking and that's what you see. It'll be right in the way. Here's the garage. Here's the capital building. Here's the hotel. We construct these things mathematically. I will vouch for their accuracy. I know people look at them and know I can't believe it. There's the dome. This is the hotel well this is the hotel that is previously permitted and here's the garage. I just don't see the bottom of the dome. You see as much of it as you do today you will in the future it doesn't jump out of you as much as you think right there. You submitted the most recent ones of those on the October 1st hearing. That helps you find it on there. If any of your folders are labeled. They're not on this drive. They must be on the Batman Drive. Maybe the City Council for 10, was it the 926 City Council maybe and you then I then got them on the first. I'm looking here. City Council 926. I just don't see them in here unless they're in this set. Sorry. But we did submit that. It's in the public record right? And they're available on the website. On the city's website. I just wanted to mention that that view there doesn't show the solar panels. So I do think that the dome would disappear should we be allowed to add the solar panels. I just wanted to there's been very little public discussion of the fire safety in reading the report. I know that the Montpelier Fire Department recommended that there be hoses in the stairwells which would require of course heated stairwells could this be an expense that could be avoided and wouldn't it result in a place where possibly teenagers or homeless people or other people may want to congregate a heated stairwell in a parking garage. You could access it if you were kind of behind the exit door and the person exiting didn't see you and you grabbed the door then you could be inside and you would be in the heating. I know that the code requires that we have to be within 800 feet of a fire plug and I believe we're only 40 feet from the state street fire plug. So I'm wondering about the expense of heating the stairwells and also the expense of heating the roof to melt all of the Vermont snow since there is nowhere to remove the snow too. There's nowhere to push it. We'd have to scoop it up and dump trucks. What kind of cost are we looking at to melt Vermont snow all winter long? Bill, I know you mentioned the heating on the roof. There's a lot to unpack there but first of all we have agreed to the fire with the fire department that we would have a dry suppression system in the building including dry standpipes in the stairwells. What that means is those systems normally don't have any water. They have a maintain a vacuum in the lines so that if a head ever deploys the system floods then the water comes. So no we wouldn't be heating the stairwells. We're not planning on heating any portion of the building. And the standpipes in the stairwells which are the hose connections you talked about the standpipes are dry unless they're charged. So they'd only be full of water. It was in my discussion with the fire department that they said that that would have to be needed to be functional. Wasn't there going to be one small space that was heated or did they change the design changes? We're still talking about the need for a server closet for the equipment that runs the parking equipment. That's going to be handled with one little mini-split because it has to be air conditioned as well. This is something we can bring up in front of the DRB because it's not really the design. But we're not planning on heating any of the stairwells. You're heating the roof and that's part of the design. It was requested by Public Works that we explore the use of district heat to melt the snow on the top deck. That was one of two options that we discussed with Public Works to remove snow from the project. The other was a tow behind snow melting device which I still think is a good idea because you can use it in more than one place. But in either case any snow collected is going to get melted rather than piled up. I don't expect there to be a lot of snow on the intermediate layers. It would just be the top layer that would require this. I have no idea how much that's going to cost to run but the city has this district heat system and they really would like to extend hot water to this site to have that possibility. So we've said yes. I'm just wondering about the breakdown of the maintenance budget because I'm sure the heating was considered in that is it not a separate item in the budgeting? Yeah, I can't speak about budget size and bill issue. Thank you. First of all design issues. Second of all as Greg said we're not planning on any internal heat cost because the building is going to be heated. We're exploring district heat. We're already paying and running the heat system so it would just be have its own heat exchanger and come in. Obviously we could figure that in. We're in negotiation with the hotel and ideally if we can bring the line to them and use it for the garage then it's a win for everybody in terms of that kind of thing. So those are still being worked out with Greg and with the hotel but we don't expect a whole lot for heating cost and so we're pretty comfortable with our operation budget. I'm really sorry, I forgot. I had one more note. I misread what I wrote. So the other thing is I am a little bit concerned what is the height of the posts underneath of the walkway and then pathway that shows up in some of your renderings as being elevated? Kind of like stilts. The ramp coming up? Yeah. Oh well they go from nothing to six feet tall? Because I know the police have had problems in the past underneath some of our bridges, the people living there in the winter and I also know that the Heaney lot historically has had severe problems with drug use and actually probably doing less than good things to young girls and I wonder if we're not creating a possible new village location for these things to happen and I know security cameras can help with some of that but I'm sure you folks have thought about that. It seems to me it's a design issue to have all of that square footage up off the ground and if it's not design review issue I'd just like to take it to get on the list for development review. Thank you. Well, I sense you're looking for a response. Things are on stilts and things in that area because we're using that as a portion of our flood control management program for these combined sites. Dropping and maintaining the grade at 518 for most of that area and we're using those sites on our flood water that we can build this project without increasing the impacts on flooding in the area. We've conducted extensive computer modeling of that and it turns out that the balance is close enough that if there were a flood that this project would impact it by a few thousands on edge. So substantially neutral in terms of flow right along. But that's why a lot of this stuff is on stilts as opposed to just filled up or buried. That and we want to make sure that we maintain this garage as an open to air garage which means it doesn't require mechanical ventilation. We just make that by virtue of keeping the ground floor open because the side against the church and around the hotel is at the lowest level is completely buried. So we need those openings to avoid having to mechanically ventilate the garage which I think is a good thing. And it is lit, you said? It is lit and I understand that the police department has been working with us on getting the correct security system. There will be cameras. For the most part we, you know this was a design choice we could make that we don't have to have the garage don't have to be or the stairwells don't have to be enclosed at all. Sometimes that's a choice people can make is to not enclose them but in this particular case because this is qualified as an open garage we can enclose the intermediate levels with as much glass as we want and so that's what we'll do as you can see at the top of the stair towers they've got a bit of glass on them and I think they're more user friendly when you can walk up on them and see into them without sort of thinking somebody's hiding behind the doors that you want to mention. Perhaps the northwest one could be the one at night time. Yeah we can always limit access to those things with howler panic bars but I would hesitate offering that unless there was somebody who lived next door we wanted to go around turning them off occasionally. So I don't have anything additional to offer. Any further questions from the board? If you run, just quickly run down the items. Okay so well and this is are you in a space where you want to try and do a recommendation sheet or is this a mind taking thoughts to the DRV and then the application coming back to you again? I'm prepared for that. Okay because I know the fence the picket fencing is an issue and that's both along the ramping and along the bottom of the building. So that's one thing you want to have a recommendation on. You want to do you want to have bike racks on the boardwalk as well or just inside the garage or have it as an option? Leave them as an option. To do art and or signs at the both of the different sort of alleyway places on both sides to make that welcoming. I'm going to make sure I go through everything I've got here. Structural elements you like number one option. The number one option make sure it's muted, gray, dark, black, gray coloring. So again so it does a compete with the other components. Representation as a placeholder only. Yeah representation as a placeholder only and you want that as a competition but within the scope of the design that you've decided upon. Yes. Okay. And then we've got any comments on the I mean we talked about the height of the solar panels but that's really just future it needs to come back here. It would be another application. Again it's conceptual only at this point. The fixtures for the lights. The 3000 kelvin warmth for lights is good. Prefer black for the exterior fixtures, right? They suggest it. Perfect. Okay. The materials for the. Cornice. Cornice, thank you. Talked about GFRC. As an option. Okay. So GFRC we talked about there was another option too, right? Polymer composite. Okay. And those are both okay. Yes. They'll be the same granite coloring. Yep. Yes. Yep I have that. As are all the rest of the bands around the building. Typically the lower ones are actually granite. It's only that cornice that we're going to have made out of cornice. The cornice will be to match the granite that's on the rest of the building and it's an option of polymer composite or the GFRC. Okay. Right? Option two, put in fixtures or mountings to be able to hang temporary banners over the large artwork. That's a good idea. Yes and like you said that could be eyeballs below the cornice work. Yeah we'll figure out some attachment points and we'll just provide them so that people aren't drilling through my flashing stuff. Yeah. And maybe also make sure we run that by police department. Okay. Does that sound? What was the coloring of the flashing again? That's fine. The steel frames going around the openings should be fairly easy to provide some eyeballs to. Right. It's a good look. I hope all of you get a chance to see our project up in South Burlington where we've used this detail because it's on Schalberg road. Yeah it's near the McDonald's and there will be theaters down there. So for the fencing, do you want that to come back or are you just there's a specific look you want for that? I don't think we need to hold it up. Okay. But it would be a nice type of better solution. Okay. I'll relate to that and make sure we show something to the development view board. Okay. And we can send it in the staff so you can look at it before the development view board meets. Functional but classic. There you go. Basically not what it is. Functional but classic. Yeah. Just something that's compatible with the rest of the building and with the rest of the entire property, the entire project. Because I didn't feel like I could come to options to make them. To back it up just a little bit. I'm apologizing that. Structural steel scheme number one. Was that proposed to be powder coated black? Is that what I... Yeah everything would get galvanized and then powder coated. I like the black because we're doing that with other things here. Those bridges are often green or rust red. And the black too. I think a rusty red kind of color would just flatten out with the brick. Black is fine. I'm happy with the black. I mean that's what I'm doing here in South Burlington and it looks sharp. It's a classic looking and it's subtle. And again it's not competing with the greenery or anything like that. And the other components. Good detail. We'll put some little details, you know, little stiffer plates and stuff in to make the connections interesting. You know, lots of extra bolts. Rivets. I wish. Does somebody do riveting anymore? They're welcome to it. I guess, yeah, I mean rivets would be perfect. So make sure that there's an opening in the security fence on the ground level. I'll just decide since that wasn't actually in the presentation. Sorry, going through a bunch of different notes here to make sure we, and you guys were all good with the renderings, with the view sheds. Okay. I just wanted to make sure. I convinced all of that. The decking material we talked about. Tropical hardwood. Like if you pay or something like that. Sustainable. Hardwood FSC. Or whether we can get a bunch of black locust. That would be preferred. If we can source black locust. Okay. Black locust preferred. I think that's eBay. Because I'm astounded how well it's held up. It's a solid piece of material. It won't even burn. It's incredible. It's a good way to break a lot of stainless steel fasteners. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. And I can get any other details from the recording I think. And that was the last item. That is a decking option. If you have anything a little more. If you have any drawings that show the landscaping then you will go before the development board. Is any of the landscaping for the edible? Just getting numb. By humans or deer. That's it. No. I was going to think I could. Were you hoping for berries or something? Well it occurred to me as possible solution getting people like this going like this. Planting a bunch of raspberries or something. Yeah. I agree with that. Yes. So you want them just before it goes to the DRV you want them to do that? It would be helpful when you go to the DRV to show this and then if you have a rendering showing the plantings you're proposing as well. The rendered plan has to be in there. I think he's looking for us to merge. Merge that with this. We certainly can. Generally speaking we turn that layer off because it covers up so much information that we're trying to share with you. Not about it just being able to see both. It would be easy enough to turn it back on. Be a nice perspective. But you'll be surprised at how much this gets cover of by trees. It's going to cover everything. When they're in full leaf. Steve, my preference administratively there's still some outstanding issues primary one I see is the signage and treatment of the two gateways. We have a meeting on the fifth for the DRV I think this has been a lot of improvement from a procedural basis. I think it's hard to provide things where there's approved things where you don't have as close to final plans as possible. I don't know what your schedule is getting additional. That's the one thing I would really like to see is that treatment obviously that hanging up in the air. It's almost as if thinking about it as a precedent. This is a big project so it's a little bit different but saying we're going to fix this we're going to fix that so I want my approval. We have a whole signage plan that we're showing to the DRV. I think he's just asking for that additional layer of wayfinding stuff. Because we have all the yield signs and stop signs that we're going to have in the end. That probably should have come to us. We may not have authority over that but certainly we look at an awful lot of signs. So the signage plan that we have right now is just stop signs. Signs to 89 and route 2 and like yield signs and no enter signs. They're all strictly traffic signs. The rest of the sign package that is here's the garage and that kind of stuff was going to be a separate application. Any kind of true sign signs versus traffic signs. There hadn't been much discussion about the kind of signage you're talking about yet. So without sort of going all the way into designing that though I think it's okay for us to indicate on the site plan a couple of spots where we need to have that wayfinding sign stuff. Yeah and you know I'm thinking something more than just sign. Something that's really kind of a welcoming design so that people know when they're walking down State Street, walking through that parking this is the way you get to the river. Because for somebody that doesn't know there's no way to know the river is there. Does it make sense to have that as this is something that needs to come back with the rest of the signage package? Not the traffic signage but wasn't there another layer of signage that we were thinking about? Normally we would hand that off to somebody like Sparky Hog and they would handle that. And have it in signs mounted on the building, enter and exit signs and all that. And it seems like some of this would not be on our property and it would be more of a city thing perhaps. Well I understand what Eric said. I know what you're saying too. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make sure you have enough time to really incorporate that as part of this or have that as a separate talk. I don't know I just want to make sure that we're not approving some kind of an idea while we're going to fix this. That's what I'm saying either put it as a condition, ask the DRV to put it as a condition as they have to come back through the permit process to get that sign and bring it for on Monday. I'm just trying to throw out options. Well this would come first and other people who are currently on DRC for the 5th might get bumped. Because I think we have 5 or 6 applications for the 5th right now. I don't know. I'm just this is more than a sign issue. That's all. What do you feel comfortable with? I mean what I've just said I have that as a total separate application to add on to this rather than have all that as part of this. That implies we approve this as design. I don't like that idea because I think it needs to happen. You think it needs to have this sign. I think if we approve this and say this is going to be a separate application then the implication is whatever you want to do that you can do what you can apply for it. Well you can put a time limit when they have to apply for it. If you don't like that I'm just trying to There's other people on here. I don't know whether I'm just being too picky here. It feels to me like this is a big project that should probably happen. Being able to go to the voters before November 6th. I mean we have a meeting on the 5th that should be fairly easy to look at the limited items and get that done since we discussed this thing. That would include this way finding stuff that you're suggesting. Something on the signs. What else would we have to have ready for Monday? Oh just to show them the traffic management plan signs you mean? I meant the fences. I was looking at you. If this car creates too much of a problem I'm just like I said we'll get our approval when we earn it. I'm sorry go ahead Mike. Yeah Mike Miller and the planning director and so the way finding piece I think my two cents and that would be there's a separate project that is being run by Montpelier Alive for way finding. I just don't think I would recommend developing a separate way finding package just for this and have it built into this. I would probably go and task the way finding committee on Montpelier Alive that's been doing the way finding project for the rest of the downtown to go and simply make this consistent and develop a plan that's consistent with what we're doing for all the other way finding. I'm thinking about more than signs so Mike in terms of designing entrances that have a larger visibility it's not just signing it's making these entrances visible from the street and looking like entrances to the river. That's my point. Signing I find if it's just signing we can figure that out. So it's making structural differences to the building. I don't know what Greg would suggest in terms of doing that and making sure that these are pretty obvious entrances. I don't know whether it's some kind of arch canopy just an idea that's some sort of symbolic gateway. Yeah arts and street furnishings to reinforce the idea. Yeah I think I get what you're driving had. You know I just would like to find an efficient way to get it back in the front of you because I don't think it's a lot. And I recognize the need to act on it and use something to the DR. I just observe that the connection between the garage and the hotel isn't really changed significantly from the prior approval and that had a gateway to the river the same walkway going through and none of this was required or asked at that time. We're all for doing this but I do think perhaps we're adding a whole different standard and there is no signage now showing anyone going down through the parking lot to the hotel. So again we're not opposed to it but I am a little concerned about holding up a project making a standard that is higher than an already approved project that's virtually identical. I do think the project has changed enough in terms of blocking the river that we need to emphasize this access. And I don't want to hold a project up I just want to make our process something that if you don't want to do it conditional that's fine. That was best to make that recommendation. I mean it's your options. You can have it come back or you can have it as a they need to show it to DRV but it's not going to be your option view it. It comes back on the 5th. How many things do we have to have a real defense? The fencing and the things that you really need to look at clearly what your recommendations are. Also unfortunately I want to bring up one little thing which is I don't feel like we talked about the railings other than they were talked about sort of as. Right so the fencing railing yes that's what we were saying that this comes back and that would be one of the things to show options. Like all those what the public really interacts with like touches and feels like I want that to be those two things will come back. More than just the clock there but really understood. And maybe it is more than the way I understood it from this meeting. We got a cut sheet we gave you something fairly plain-spoken and generic. This shows the horizontal what appears to look like a cable rail type system and then the cut sheet for the gates that are on the building are not the same. No I think we can deal with that. I don't want to hold the project up. If this were a condition expressed to the DRB I could still come by and show you our solutions on the 5th but you'd have the flexibility of not having to take a further vote on it. Either that or have me back I mean if this is going to be a sticking point that you recall then we'd like to come back on the 5th because I'd really like to wrap it up with the DRB right later that evening. It can come back on the 5th we just some people make it bump. We were looking at potentially bumping some people if somebody ran long on the 5th anyway. If you could have your motion ready to go though or however you know it's... It's a recommendation for us. So yeah. Let's do that. I'm back on the 5th and we'll try to address those two remaining issues and then the rest of it will be recommendations forwarded to the Development Review Board. I can draft those up so that you can sort of have an attachment sheet for the recommendations that you think. I would make a motion. I'll send it over so we can close the project. Well I mean we're talking Monday now. I would make a motion that we approve the project with the exception of these three very specific items. Does that make any sense? And then that those items need to come back to us and then I would assume it would be very quick and it would be before the DRB. Does that make sense to you Bill? Or is that what you really came up with? I think the vote on November 6 is important and I think that we're showing a vote of confidence towards something and not holding it up. I feel like that offers our community some sort of something. I have a hot news item since November 5th. It's just one day before November 6th. Well but I think there's a lot of banter about it going around on various other places and if there is at least some sort of non from our committee that this... Can we go through the list and approve it and then just put the condition? I don't think, I don't know if you can partially approve it. What you can maybe Mike knows this a little better than I have. I think what you can do is maybe just say those are the last three items that you want to review. Can we scroll, everything still be open for further discussion at the next hearing? I don't think you can close just part of the evidence but I also don't think you can approve it. I don't think you can approve it. We've discussed already that the gateway sort of entrances and the railings and fence those are the last items that you need to that you want more information. We've straw-pulled before though. Can we straw-pull now? That's both for me. Procedurally I think you can straw-pull early. I think you can certainly go through and make a process decision that would go through and say we're only going to consider these three items. The hearing itself technically is open to everything so if the public had concerns about design elements that you've already made your decisions on I think you're obligated to because the decision is still open. But from how you manage yourselves you guys can go and say we're not asking Greg to revise anything other than what we're giving him and he's agreed to come back to talk to us on these three points and we're going to constrain ourselves just to these three points. That I think would be the process but I don't think there would be a straw-pull but it wouldn't be binding. That would be my interpretation. I think the straw-pull was that everything's acceptable but again those three items would like to take a look at the railing. Is there any way to show that we've seen some of the other pictorials of what it looks like from the front but nothing like this showing from this side. You're asking for an elevation from where? Landscaping. So in other words what we'd be looking at is a color representation of what this looks like from State Street. Like an elevation or a perspective? A perspective just like this. So you can see what that entrance looks like going between the buildings on this side. You're suggesting I couldn't see what you're pointing at but looking down the parking lot? With everything with this new package here is there a way to show a perspective looking at it from State Street so you see what it actually looks like. From State Street? And we saw some of the earlier things. But to then put in the more welcoming entrance possibilities for the pathways. Which means that way you're including your landscape plan again in a color and representation of what it's actually going to look like when you're walking down to that entryway to come to the back of the building. So either a northern elevation or a perspective. And I think since the suggestion for signing you're not designing the signage right? Right. So about some suggestions for signing content and location would be helpful. Right. I think we'll sort of say there's going to be a sign here. It's going to be this big and this is the purpose of it. And then when Sparky Potter or the committee that's doing this around town comes up with what they're supposed to look like everywhere. Because I saw the presentation by that group. They've got things that are going to hang on street poles and stuff. I think we definitely want to be keyed into that. I think Mike's right. I mean this is something I want to be integrated. So how do we do this? Take a straw boat and then say this is a straw boat. But in that next meeting we're going to kind of consider these three. Yes. That makes sense to me. I don't quote. So with the exception of the three items to be addressed at the next meeting on the 5th, all everybody who is in favor of the other components raise your hand. Three items left. Yeah. Obviously a lot of moving parts to this. Some other things are getting done. So I've got more time to focus on that. We'll get that to you as quickly as we can this week. Thank you for your time. Thanks. Thank you. As soon as possible. Some of it will come quickly. I think we're going to have to take some time to think about what Eric wants. It's more than one idea I think that needs to happen. And all of this can deal with some other stuff. I'll send it to the staff. We can share. We're getting there. It might have been in the bigger packet. But again always. I like coming to here. You're starting to get around. Sorry. There's a question for you. I know we need to wrap everything up. But I do have packets from Monday with me right now. For everything else that's currently on the agenda. Do you want to wait until I get everything that Greg is going to provide? And then put it all together so you have everything in one envelope. That goes then. If we can either get printed material or by email or whatever. That's hopefully it'll be printed and just added to these packets that I have now. But I'd like to get that as soon as possible. If you can do it in the next couple of days. I would just get that sooner than later. If for some reason I haven't gotten that from him before the end of the day Thursday, these packets are going to go at the police station and pick up. And then hopefully I can just email it to you because I'm just out of the office. So I'm trying to make sure you get that to proper channels. And I will write up what we've got in here for the recommendation sheet so that you guys can review that. It's hard. There are a lot of moving parts of this. And usually we review much smaller projects. And we ask for specifics on smaller projects. And they're like the fencing. The fencing of the railings. It should look better and be more specific. And again, that would be between a rock and a hard place. Because you don't want to hold it up and you want it to be complete. Who knows what's going to happen with this. But I want to be confident. The design review has done its due diligence. I can accept that. I understand the deadline. I just did want to sort of at least show some confidence to the world that we're behind the project. Some of the items, like everything someone peers, who knows. It might become a homeless encampment underneath. But you deal with a lot of that stuff. In case you need to. And at some point in time if they need to do some six inch metal fencing. We hope not. That's very solution. So do we need to adjourn at this point? Or are there other business? We have agreed to table that. Coming back with the three items. We didn't make a motion. Because are you still recording? So we'll hear a motion to adjourn. In the next meeting we'll be back here on the fifth. Second. All in favor. Back on the fifth.