 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and we're on episode 147 now and what we're going to be talking about in this one is taking new routes in therapy. So I'm going to say the wonderful Jackie Jones because I know you've made to me so many times. So I but I did start I did pick this title I picked most of them I think I took all of them. You pick all the titles Bob. There's two parts to this or there's two ways of looking this this title. One of them is about changing tack, changing direction, changing routes in the psychotherapy process. The other thing we also could talk about in the podcast is the different routes people take when they train as psychotherapists and counselling because there's many different routes and when I thought of this title it was much more about taking different routes in the therapy process but today when I was thinking about what I'm going to talk about I was thinking a lot of people are listening to us as counsellors and therapists might be interested about and people interested in the world of psychotherapy and counselling and how to move from one world to the other or how to start might be interested in the different routes people go in the world of counselling and psychotherapy but I'd like to start with my first thought about this title which is different routes in the therapy journey people take. Yeah is that okay? Absolutely I completely agree and I think both topics are very worthy of a podcast but just yeah time to get to both but we'll start with the first okay so there's a wonderful poem in a wonderful book and the book is TA Today by Ian Stewart and Van Joins done many editions of it I forget when it was first written I think it was 1987 but you don't have to buy the first edition I think the last edition God knows when um in the back of that book is the basic TA textbook is a wonderful poem and you'll know it Jackie by Nelson Porsche I think which talks about if you go down one route in a script way you might just fall in a hole and it takes a long time to get out of it and then I think it's five chapters to it so the best thing to do when you get out of the hole is to go down another route in attempt to change but the problem is you still go down the same bloody route and you still fall down the same hole and I think the five chapters lead to and you might perhaps you can tell me the different chapters Jackie but I know the last one is you do help the client go down a different road altogether or you get or you help the client get out of the hole quicker yes and take a different route and why I've gone to this poem is as a therapist you might start off one way and you might actually find you have to go down another route so it reminded me of that poem which you're probably looking up now I've got it here shall I read it yes yes go it's called autobiography in five short chapters by Porsche Nelson of Porsche Nelson that way yes and chapter one I walked down the street there is a deep hole in the sidewalk I fall in I am lost I am helpless it isn't my fault it takes forever to find a way out chapter two I walk down the same street there is a deep hole in the sidewalk I pretend I don't see it I fall in again I can't believe I am in the same place but it isn't my fault it still takes a long time to get out chapter three I walk down the same street there is a deep hole in the sidewalk I see it is there I still fall in it's a habit my eyes are open I know where I am it is my fault I get out immediately chapter four I walk down the same street there is a deep hole in the sidewalk I walk around it and then chapter five I walk down another street I think it gets me every time I read that I think it's such a lovely poem I really do it's such a lovely poem and it is I wanted to start the podcast that way because we are talking about roots yeah and how and if you think about it in that way it's like it could say the whole of the therapy process with the client begins and end with this in other words helping the client be aware of the destructive root they're on yes and helping them find a different route yeah healthy one yeah absolutely and being along the journey with them yeah as a witness absolutely yeah you can look at therapy that way and even you can look at it and even as we look at that way which I think is a wonderful way to look at it very touched by the poem however clients from their unaware places will set so many traps and so many pitfalls sometimes it takes a lot of perseverance quite a long time to stay with the client so you can help the cloud be more aware and help them make changes and integrate different routes into their life it's more beneficial yeah not straightforward process usually absolutely not because every time they become aware of their behavior and they change there's always the opportunity for self sabotage so it's not it's not a straightforward process it's not it's never a linear process no I think to help people find more healthy routes to change yeah it's never linear because if they could do that they would never come to therapy in the first place no absolutely so the therapist has to help them be aware of what's happening on this route the pitfalls that might happen and just like the poem really that we the you read our cell open yeah help them find a new route so they can take charge and ownership of their own destiny yeah and that's the that's the big thing in therapy isn't it is that they can take charge of their own destiny and it's not us that does it to them no but it is yeah you're correct we don't do that we don't do it to them or not if we just said well this is the route this is the map this is how you get there goodbye yeah would probably repeat history with them which to be fair some of us would have liked that in our therapy process but I can remember wanting that desperately when I was going through my own personal therapy is you know if you know what I need to do just tell me and I'll do it but that's not how he works no you know and I was thinking my childhood when you said that which wasn't a very pleasant one but or stroke and it wouldn't be so much for me that I got a map of a healthy route it would be the most important thing for me I'm not sure looking back is it true but anyway this is what I feel is that I had somebody to accompany me in the uh routes the map went down yeah so from a big part of therapy for me over many years was the somebody accompany me um and help me if you like I think a company's very important in the in the road or route of discovery and journey of uh the healthy place I was going to absolutely and it's having yeah and it's having the trust in somebody for them to be there with you that that's the it's not just any joe blogs on the journey with you there has to be a relationship I was thinking of you I was thinking of you so I was driving home to this podcast and there was a program on fostering and and and I know you did that for a while didn't you I don't you still do that but you not yeah 13 years yeah and it had I don't know sort of program the radio station I can't much registration was they had quite a few people who did fostering and also people have been fostered and they were talking about particularly the two people who have been fostered talking about and then the other foster people what was the most important thing thing or quality uh what was yeah as they went as they were fostered and um um one of the most important things they were talking about being fostered the number one not being moved around or to different places secondly really somebody who spent time with them that would treat them uh with respect integrity and and be there in a secure safe way and being there was really central to them yeah so you know it more than perhaps most people I suspect absolutely the difficulty with that is for me is you know being there for them often involves having structure and boundaries that they butt against it's definitely not an easy ride for either party therapy though isn't it absolutely absolutely yeah I see you see I see that what you're talking about as positivity in the ups and downs and potholes of the journey yeah because it provides a secure base and provides a sense of safety in this journey which isn't always going to be so easy absolutely yeah yeah yeah and I think when it first happens when you know as a therapist or a foster care or a parent or whatever when we need to put boundaries and structure in place they don't like it but adolescents never do do they no but if you our clients I presume they're going through the adolescent phase in the therapy room they don't like it if they're late and you end on time or you know whatever it is they they're not 100 on board with it by definition that's why when we talk about roots and psychotherapy it's about sometimes you need first of all well not sometimes perhaps always create the structure and a safe place for the journey ahead yeah your head otherwise they may give up yeah when away yeah may act out in ways where that root becomes impassable absolutely yeah and I think it's it's part of our job as a psychotherapist to to be that safety net underneath them you know and to have the belief in them that they can do this when they don't necessarily have that in themselves I agree completely I have a warning for everybody listening flashing lights warning and it's about ego driven counselors or psychotherapists get so wedded to one root yes because they have read books or been trained or whatever it is there's not this is not a criticism particularly it's just how I what I've observed over let's get so wedded to a certain way of doing therapy or so wedded to doing a certain way of doing counseling or so wedded to a particular piece of theory they have this root so planned out to an nth degree for their security and also what they think is best for the part that they never change it yeah 100 agree and that's my warning because that way of doing therapy there might be success sometimes but also can lead to huge problems yeah I'm I'm passionate about transactional analysis you know me I love a diagram I've always got my diagrams up and I do have my go-to things that I use particularly in the early stages but I'm open to anything you know literally you know the things that happen in my life will encourage me to research and to look at other avenues and for me the more I've got in my toolbox that can help my clients the better I agree and I I think the way forward and I'm not saying theory doesn't help you're not saying treat that's not not saying books don't help you're not saying many things but what I am saying is I think if you can listen to the client or help the client decode what they're trying to say to you and that will be the most effective route yeah and that there's a definite skill in that bob in decoding what they're trying to say or ask or develop with whatever it is yeah yeah because they might from a sabotage place manipulate you from a psychoanmy, psychoanalytical version of manipulate you to go down a route which will confirm the history yeah so I'm not saying that we just would need nearly follow up the dictates of our clients I'm more saying that if we stay attuned use phenomenology of inquiry respect our clients as well as looking out the defense processes we can help them in a sharing and decoding if you want to put that word into it so between the two of you in a sort of co-created process we'll find the way together yeah and I like that I like that co-creating and decoding because it is a partnership we can't do it to them or at them they've got to be an active participant in it yeah I was doing some thinking of supervision again actually um I was wondering a client that came I was talking to her about the way forward with this client and she was saying well you know we have to go this way because the client wants us to go this way and so I said do you ever say no no it's a sense of bilateralism in the discourse with your client in other words just sharing some just sharing some other options that maybe we could go that way we could go this way so you have a co-created discussion because sometimes a client might not know about the stormy roads ahead and may need you to give different options which may be more healthy I think that's really important me too and I think there is a fine line I'm not sure whether it was this podcast or the one before that you touched on it about you know being an ego driven psychotherapist is not very good in that I know better than you but there is something in having the knowledge and being able to pass that on as options to the client as long as that is done bilaterally so I laterally and not unilaterally yes not the therapist sticking to a version this is the only way yeah this is the only way I know that you see that sort of unilateral position can be taken as a monopolization of the truth rather than what I'm suggesting is a co-created discussion where both partners take ownership of the road to head yes yeah you are correct in what you're saying in the sense because the therapist in inverted commas because if we look at transfers and everything else I'm not so sure but we'll say in inverted commas may have a more healthy script then it is important for the therapist to point out options and healthy alternatives but if the client is it like a parent driven you have to do it my way then there can be a repeating of history yes yeah it's a balance I understand that yeah and it's not helpful either you know again you know going back to what we touched on before if the in my mind if the client comes in and feels like they are in total control of everything in that room that's quite an unsafe place for them to be it's also an unreal position for them to be absolutely yeah yeah you know I often talk in the early days with clients about the okay corral and I'm okay you're okay and you know it is that bilateral conversation that you have you know that we're both in an okay place that's right I like that okay corral position absolutely different existential positions yeah healthy being I'm okay you're okay and the most unhealthy position being I'm not okay you're okay you're not okay yeah either too I'm okay you're not okay and either I'm being you're not okay I'm okay so I like that and the way you're talking about the healthy roots ahead yeah so I don't think there's anything wrong in in using other modalities or things that learned if if you think that they are for the good of the client yeah absolutely well yes of course that's where the whole birth of eclectic therapy came from when I first came to therapy that was a buzzword eclectic psychotherapy nowadays I think it's been substituted by integrative psychotherapy and part of integral psychotherapy the way it's used today it's exactly what you just talked about maybe of borrowing from different models if it's you know if it serves the client that's the last bit is really important it has to be done in the service of the client not service of the therapist no not using them as a guinea pig or just experimenting or doing you know something for yourself yeah absolutely but I think sometimes to to to to mix things up is quite a positive thing in the therapy you know I I felt stuck with some clients I felt like I don't know what to do because we've gone round in full circle about six times we you know something needs to shift for us to move out of this so I have introduced something different yeah I think that's what it could be because it it may break that repetitive cycle yeah which I know you know it is the self-sabotage and it's the protection and it's all that sort of stuff but sometimes we need to shift the energy or whatever it is to to get out of that I used to do this a lot what you're talking about now I did a loss in I can see you doing it a lot many versions of experimentation over the years I know once you might be appalled by this I don't know this and podcast people might be appalled by this and I'm sure you might be shouting at the that mobile phone or whatever you listen to in a minute but I remember with the client going through many of the repetitive behaviors you're talking about I forget it but it was particularly if it was a repetitive process or a game of about not being heard and I wouldn't hear them but I I can't quite remember if it was a repetitive behavior of the person not talking whatever it was I decided anyway that I would get up and read the newspaper I love it I love it so I got up and got the paper out and started reading that and the person she was so astounded absolutely that she started to rant and rave at me about this that the other but it broke the repetitive cycle yeah he takes balls to be able to do that in the therapy room Bob I must have me I don't think I've got I'm that well big clients so OCD clients I used to do the therapy quite often lying down on a sofa yeah mainly because they didn't expect mainly because they had a parent in their heads that said the therapist has to be perfect I've done things on purpose to show that I'm not perfect absolutely I've done that yeah yeah so um there are many things from different models than many people might pick the experimentation process of a lot of the stoke techniques I've borrowed many times yeah but I think the biggest thing is I like to have a co-created process where it's all in service of the client and I at least have a thought process about what I'm doing yes yeah and again I think it's getting a feel for the clients you know so some of my clients I know that they would be open to trying new things with other clients maybe not so do you know the the best venue for experimentation group psychotherapy yes I've never ventured into I do couples but couples are it I've never done a group session in psychotherapy I spent 35 years running psychotherapy groups and they are the most wonderful venues for experimentation in a safe setting with eight people yeah contracted and everything else I was a great fan and still am I of group psychotherapy I'm also a great fan of new routes like you know changing routes if things aren't working and finding together a new route yeah quite like that poem that we read out at the beginning absolutely you know my my own life journey over recent years has led me to become more interested in in different options I'm interested in equine guided therapy now and I'm interested in the mind-body connection and there's lots of things that I've become interested in for my own benefit that I have no doubt will filter through into my private practice somehow I think that's how it is the more experience we've come as therapists we often specialise in our own interests and those tastes may or may not take us different directions and then there's life events that also impact us so we you know we may go down different directions as therapists different routes as therapists and that's all okay as well yeah I think for me transactional analysis transactional analysis will always be the bedrock of the grounding absolutely a hundred percent yeah yeah you know I'm the same and I spend my career with TA as you know the major grounding bedrock by the I did then after I got the bedrock if you like go off and specialise an integrative psychotherapy and yeah but I'm very pleased that I got a founding bedrock system in place me too you like yeah which became became a sort of guiding light and therefore the other trainings that I you know took as I developed I've used and they've been interesting and everything else but it's been wonderful to have the structure to build all these different things on if you like yeah that's how I see it I would I I won't ever move away from it it will always be there yeah yeah I enjoyed this podcast because it reminds I'm really pleased to be able to say that you know taking healthy routes helping people find different routes is one of the most important prerequisites and the and also journeys that the therapist and client take together yeah absolutely I've really enjoyed this another one um so what we're going to be talking about in the next one um the title that I've got down is the pressure cooker effect in therapy and is that the 150th that's 148 the pressure what's the 149 then 150 if you've got them written down 149 is five things I wished I had known before I became a psychotherapist oh I remembered right I remember thinking that one up oh the growth of equine therapy that's yours I put that in because I know a little bit about it but you're the expert in it and I thought it was such an interesting development that you've taken in your career that I could not not have a podcast you know we have to have a podcast on that uh we've given people a bit of a sneaky peek on what's coming up over the next month yeah but but you know what that's wonderful in the 150th we've got that but the next one is the pressure cooker now I spent a lot of my life as a therapist carefully meticulously meticulously yes that my dyslexia doesn't have me carefully meticulously building up very slowly bit by bit the pressure cooker oh psychotherapy so I'm gonna love talking about that there's another thing to look forward to maybe I have been doing it and I don't know I don't I have no idea what this one's going to be about Bob you have so I look forward to that or can talk until next time thank you yeah thank you bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode