 It's a pleasure keeping as to keeping you having you on this morning the conversation right here on why in the morning if you're just joining us this is why 254 now we are we just done for the next discussion for the day we would like to dissect the BBI if you know you are online go to www.y254.co.ke where we are also live on our website to participate and engage with us the hashtag as always is why in the morning tag me at Ram a Google our official station handle is at Y254 channel on to with her now I'm joined by Nudin Kaguye political analyst and lawyer we are continuing this conversation with him on politics now the building British initiative report is expected to be tabled at the Nairobi County assembly floor on Tuesday for discussion it goes to the bill will it be passed or not the house sittings resume at the Nairobi County assembly that is a question remember CIA County assembly last week said precedence on the BBI by becoming the very first county to pass the bill the devolution cabinet secretary Geno Malwa has employed West Pocot County assembly to consider passing the bill of the BBI in order to further improve on devolution which has had commendable success stories since its inception in the year 2010 this is a question will the county assemblies pass the bill that is the conversation we are we want to have with my brother here Nudin in a few so Nudin Nairobi County assembly is resuming sittings amidst a lot of issues that are happening in Nairobi County do you see them passing the bill the question rather is will there be public participation because passing the bill that will pass that we know you say it will pass the 24 counties they'll pass 24 counties they will make it Rila said that he's sure yeah that they will pass the bill in all the 24 counties in fact he said that that the bill referendum will be approved in the records the 24 counties before the end of this month you see you see the is even a time at a time line you see the the problem is like we keep saying in Kenya political parties are all individuals so those who get into politics elected let's say MCA in the Havana whatever Parliament there's something called party position now odm has a position on BBI jubilee has a position on BBI jubilee party leaders working on them party days so it's more or less panel beating the members of the county assembly and then you and you must search them with a car grant and of course you'll have the 24 counties I'm looking at what Ruto said that we must also say the truth this is what Ruto said and I quote we must also say the truth our plan to create millions of job in the second term after laying the ground in the first time was put aside and the priority becomes became the BBI they had five years before before the BBI 2013 to 2017 there were no jobs created as well you see any failure of success in jubilee government is should be given to same shape same measure to the president now I'm looking at you know this blame this this potion pool over this BBI they especially can now coming to the county assemblies because now the discussion will be the development agenda of the county yeah and then when the development agenda of the ruling party and the government as a whole when we are to prioritize how should our county assemblies look at this document you see they look they need to look check on devolution is devolution game is the document good to devolution we strengthen devolution are the people going to benefit from it what are the benefits you see those are the questions I asked them the people need to be a public participation where people understand the document not in the scenario we've seen people were signed and also then getting a document you know it's like you're going for an exam and after the exam you're given notes things don't work like that to read yes so you see there's not one there was no civic education that is why the proponents of BI I say the BI is being demonized or there are rumors around it when you don't do public when civic education people want to know what you're doing that's number one you say you believe it will be passed I'm sure that that's not even a question 24 counties they'll get it without public participation the level of the participation is what is key because like in CIA there's a court case they're asking did you really do adequate civic public participation that's the question because you know you can you can come here and meet you and you say we did public participation but said did did quite a lot when it comes to setting presidents yeah they had to that's that's where that's the whole of the retinal prime minister they had to they had to say president you see the problem is they've been to the other month they have a month to take it now to the National Assembly with the certificate of approval then from there it moves you see and once it moves you know like they say that they train left the station whatever I don't even say this and I quote you can now see everything that they have been saying about the VBI is not based on an honest disclosure but on narrow personal interests the truth is they wanted opposing they started opposing the BBI team even before he started its work citing wrong priorities and other issues and that's a question would do you think that the statement about those in opposition of the BBI is is true what do you think how do you make of it that they are they aren't honest but it is based they oppose it based on narrow personal interest you know police is all about interest so you see there's someone who feels like the BBI is not catering for his own now there are those like the Linda Katiba who are talking about how the concern has not been implemented and now it's going to be altered if you can't implement something then why change it what are you changing yes a constitution still has some loopholes here and there but it is one of the most important because stations in the world and it has not been implemented fully so you can get where those are coming from but not from the political class you know they say one thing in the morning and something totally different in the evening so you can find maybe somebody's opposing during the day and at night is supporting it so they it we live less to be desired about and political class you don't you don't take what they say you take it a picture like with a picture of salt because at the end of the day they can change their mind in between but those we so far we know the ones who are opposing the BBI are Linda Katiba so far because the politicians like we say today they'll be here tomorrow they'll be there they change like it's all about their interest if they are told there's something here for you I didn't jump the other side that's how they are and if you know for them again it's a it's a matter of what they gain that's the problem with our political class that's affecting the BBI yeah because if you see aside from the Linda Katiba the ones who are talking against the BBI for example politicians like yesterday like I have good examples you see obviously his two terms are over maybe he's seeking something totally different you know it's it's more or less like they're calculating their next move so what they are saying is true it's not about them being honest but they might be personal interests yeah it's all about and that's why they oppose the BBI politics is all about interest yeah those who support their interest has been taken care of by the document those who oppose it they feel there is something they would want there or maybe some you know some oppose or you know it's it BBI will form two things BBI billionaires and political formations so some will oppose to create a political career like what we had the yes and no referendum in 2005 it's more or less you know we're going to elections so this will breed new new leaders this will breed new formations so where you are it depends if I come from a region where people don't want it you'll find yourself going there so are you saying that the BBI is a money is generating document everything in Kenya the scandal until it happens until we know everything can you scan until we know you expect to see a scandal obviously this until we know this I was going to benefit until we know do you foresee a scandal obviously this is Kenya anything is possible I'm being honest I'm being honest until you find out and we'll find out after after and when those let's say and when their issues is when the scandal now crops out people are rallying the MCS of different counties to support this BBI what do you think about that move to is summer you know you're whipping your your members to toe the line and support it it is sad because as I remember someone elected we think that you have your own brain you can think and say for yourself but now when your panel beaten into a certain party position you know that it's about service delivery it's about those who elected you you should seek their audience if at all you are there to represent the people then you should represent their views not a party line because it was in party lines will never go in your as a nation but party up parties have rules there are stipulations so you cannot you cannot be a member of a political party and not do what the political party now the question is the question is do the rules of the party override the interests of the people they shouldn't nothing even when you check in the Constitution leadership and integrity chapter 6 upon a leader's interest personal interest should never override public interest that in itself is an offense you've brought in a yet another issue there but still still political parties does the stand of a candidate or a member of a party overrule the stand of the party itself if the party says we support the BBI if the stand of the party is not towards helping the lives of those who elected you or service delivery then you should overrule that you should because at the end of the day the problem is our parties are based on the ideas or ideals of the party leader they're not institutions so if the party leader today wakes up and decides I'm not part of the BBI you all follow without questioning why that is the problem you see we are these politicians they say okay same I left when I left it doesn't have to be like that CSO Malo said this yeah and I quote I am fully persuaded that leaders from the from this county he was at West Pocot County yes West Pocot County he said I am fully persuaded that leaders from this county can attest to the successes of devolution with BBI more is expected to be realized health we should support President Uru Kinyata and his normal move of making the country's development agenda even better devolution now the CS is giving his his his his view on this what do you make of that that devolution has you know BBIs is expected to to be realized through through BBIs expected to improve devolution the counties first and foremost improve your devolution is a relative the word success in devolution the term is a relative because most countries are still languishing after devolution you know he's saying that with the that so far they can attest that devolution has reached a form of success the way the BBI you expect more I'll give you an example without any good political will there will be no success we have a constitution that is never followed there is no will in for the constitution that is where we are where we are in Kenya where court order is never observed where the rule of law is not followed so there has to be political way it's like saying I can come in campaign and tell you I'll give you a million jobs if I don't mean it and you vote for me you'll never get the million jobs that's the challenge we have you see the the problem in Kenya is that we have politicians and all you see leaders are there to serve the interests of the people okay now you said a good point no devolution the CSI this your leaders have said that in 2017 they had six ECB centers but to date they have constructed 22 more and are planning to add a father 10 they have also said that they had about 10 teachers but they are adding 22 more these are the fruits of the evolution and of course well you see you say there's no devolution what about this listen the success we wanted in the evolution has not been achieved because the idea being devolution was to make the country grow towards vision 2030 at an easier rate now what we did with the evolution there are one two three things that have been done but what the majority or the biggest thing we have done with evolution we have devolved corruption from national government the country that is a problem that is why you have people who supply things to the county governments eight years down the line have not been paid and that is why you have governors who are now billionaires and that is why you have people who are still like in Turkana people are still in abject poverty they still hunger there is no water after the evolution and we're talking about the vision 2030 that's a mirage it is at the end of the day that's why I said if there is no political goodwill it will never happen so for the evolution to be a success the counties must also follow a certain formula yes towards the success yes you feel the BBI will be passed it will it promote devolution if we first fight the big monster known as corruption corruption is the biggest thing a challenge is getting any development but corruption will it will be there I was reading some book and some some professors are saying corruption can never end it can only be minimized in Kenya we have to have to minimize because ours is beyond now you know we actually revel in Nigeria our governors you know they think they're like the governors in Nigeria you know the ones who own oil fields they have jets that is that is a problem because if we don't tackle corruption case in Kenya where we headed give me a final word in regards to BBI and the counties and the county assemblies approval what do you expect I'm sure it's going to be passed by county assembly it will go to the national assembly most definitely they'll fight for a referendum but according to me I don't think it's a priority because they are more pressing issues we have doctors are striking the economy is alien we have unemployment we have so many issues a nation so I believe there's a time for everything Nairobi County still have issues with governor exactly the time for everything and Nairobi has more challenges than any other country we have no governor you start from there thank you very much Nourdin it has been a pleasure having you today thank you that is Nouridik Agai political analyst and lawyer that brings us to the end of this conversation right here on why in the morning brings us to the end it's a wrap thank you very much for being with us since we started this morning show I say thank you to everyone everyone who ensured that this show was a success on behalf of everybody right here we to you God bless you God bless the arc of your hands have a fantastic day my name is Ram I'll go keep it Y254