 with Josh Cooper to discuss human rights in Hawaii and around the world. Mr. Cooper is a director and lecturer at the Human Rights Institute at UH Manoa. And actually, he's Dr. Cooper, but he asked us to call him Josh today. Aloha, Josh. Aloha, how are you? Great, all right. Well, we have a lot to talk about. You know, human rights issues, you know, I've definitely taken center stage in the United States and around the world in the past few weeks, and there's lots to discuss. So let me ask you, Josh, why don't you tell us about the problem because I'm sure a lot of people in the United States focus on what's going on here, but may not be aware of what's going on around the world. Yes, well, the good news is the problems that exist in Hawaii also exist everywhere around the world. The one pre-existing condition that existed before the pandemic, of course, was definitely racism. So that's an issue that's going on anywhere and everywhere. And that's why I think you've seen the whole world really wake up with what happened in Minneapolis and everyone realizing we're all in the same struggle together. And so you see this rally for rights around the world to work for equality, to work for equity, to really focus on what we can do so that everyone lives a life of dignity and that they live with a life full of respect. And if you look at human rights, we're right now actually at the 75th anniversary of the UN Charter. Later this month on June 26th will be the 75th anniversary of the UN Charter when the whole world, 50 governments gathered in San Francisco. And when those 50 governments gathered in San Francisco, that's where human rights became part of international relations. It said that all people are born in equality and dignity and that governments don't grant these rights. They actually are duty bears. They have to uphold and protect those rights. So that's really amazing because that's for the first time that said we are rights holders and that governments have an obligation to us but also that governments can't take away our rights. That those rights are inherent and we have those when we're born. So that's a crucial aspect. You can see that winds of change blowing now and that sort of set that standard. That started in 1945 and now we're at 75 years and it's kind of a good time to reflect how are we and what have we done? And if you think about it, there were only 50 governments in 1945 and now there's 1934. So that is a move where all those countries in a way were able to move past racism and colonialism and become independent nations and be able to adopt constitutions that really do enshrine a lot of those values of human rights in their constitutions. One of the probably most recent ones would probably be South Africa moving into a post-apartheid future and South Africa actually includes civil and political rights like we all know, freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom together and looking at those aspects that we all know innocent until proving guilty to actually looking at economic, social and cultural rights. And those are the ones that really were exposed in the United States through the pandemic, the ones of right to healthcare, the right to education, the right to work. All those certain rights that are absolutely essential as well, the right to housing. When we told everybody to stay home, if you're a houseless, how do you do that? If we told everybody to wash your hands, if you don't have clean running fresh water, you can't do those things. So the exciting thing is what we see throughout the world is really a civil and political that we're more familiar with in the US but also recognizing that all rights are interconnected and indivisible and that we can have one without the other. So you see actions happening on a daily basis where people stand up for their rights or against what is happening to them. And then immediate action by the government, usually through police force or by the elected officials. The other new angle that's coming up that's definitely something we always knew is business and human rights. So right now actually every night around this time, I have to log in to Bangkok because they're having a regional human rights forum and it's on business and human rights. So it's looking at something known as the UN guiding principle on business and human rights and how that's being implemented. And also how the COVID crisis is also impacting people's lives and really layering all the challenges people have. So go ahead. Oh, okay. So when you mention, I think it's interesting that you mentioned 75 years ago, which happens to be the end of World War II, right? So if you, I have been to Auschwitz-Birkenau and I have been able to tour the memorial and have made it a point to go to other concentration camp, death camp memorials throughout the world. And I did note that the message from Auschwitz-Birkenau was never again. And so I've wondered if, I wonder when you talk about the UN Charter and when you talk about this in relation to world human rights, has that message, has that helped or has it changed things in terms of making their things better? Right, well, I mean, what's important is that spirit that you brought up, the spirit of San Francisco is really summarized in those words of never again. And that was because if you looked at it, you had one government try to exterminate a group of people off the face of the earth. But that had happened before by many other people who were really living in a world of racism at that same time, but the world didn't address all of that in 45. They did their best to bring it up and do never again. And the one thing that we have is never again, there's never been another world war, but there's been too many wars and too many lives lost with current conflicts and crises around the world. I helped a group of Syrian advocates and it's too long that that war has gone on, that we haven't taken action. And I think that shows if what you looked at the spirit of San Francisco and never again was like, never again shall a group of people be targeted and then exterminated. And two, if we don't take action and we let people's human rights be violated, then none of us can have peace. So it was that all of, if for any of us to have peace, it's we have to make sure everybody does. So that was a huge message and that you could see when we didn't take action in Syria and we didn't do things to help the people, then you saw a refugee crisis emerge, then you saw a right wing governments emerge. So then it did illustrate what they knew in 1945 about never again and how all the rights are interconnected. And there was also really an obligation in San Francisco. One of the articles, articles 55 and 56 of the charter said, if anyone's rights are being violated, we all have a duty and obligation to coordinate together universally in solidarity and in unity. And that's a huge step. The other aspect is that's where human rights really was born because it also said, they recognize if you see human rights, you can see human rights in two things. One, it's the floor. It's where no one's life should go below. Everyone should have those basic freedoms. But it's also a horizon that we aim for because we can always improve human rights and our lives can always be better. And so in a way, it's a shield, but also in it like Hokulea, a rising star that can guide our actions and our policymaking. So that was significant. That was really the essence of San Francisco and human rights were mentioned six times in the charter. And the other aspect there of course was also decolonization and recognize the equality of all peoples around the planet. And you see that from 50 to 193 countries, that's huge. So those are two examples of how the UN never again has definitely aimed towards that star. But for anyone who is under brutality and oppression, that never again is not a reality yet. And that's what we have to work towards and we all have to recommit to that. And we see the United States stepping in to help different countries. Are there other countries in the world that take action to provide funds or provide military personnel or other assistance in helping countries and peoples uphold human rights? Absolutely. In fact, many other countries would definitely put us to shame especially under this administration we've gone in the wrong direction but we've never been perfect. One example is we committed in the world not only on human rights and peace and security but development. And everyone agreed to a 0.07 that we donate of our gross national product and the United States is always below significant below that. But there are many countries that actually do put that much into aid and it's genuine aid to help people not something that hires one of our consultants to then get paid an exorbitant amount to then increase their wealth. So there's definitely a lot of countries. Scandinavia is probably the best ones. If you look at Sweden, Denmark, Norway they do a much better job but also on a larger context the European Union and then even in Latin America and definitely down in New Zealand it's more of a helping out with their partners in the region. So you can see an increase and we can stand to do a lot better with that. And if you look at something that was introduced in 2015 it's called the UN Sustainable Development Goals, UN SDGs and those are 17 goals that then look at ending hunger, reducing inequality, ending poverty, good health and well-being, quality education which I know we're gonna get to later, gender justice, clean health, clean water and sanitation, renewable energy, decent work and economic growth for all, looking at industry and infrastructure, looking at reducing inequalities which what we're definitely is in all the news today and then also looking at human rights cities and communities because for a lot of the issues really we need to do things on the ground I think we're looking at that in Hawaii with the COVID crisis as self-reliance and self-determination is more important than ever as a human right and being able to provide those basic essentials for one another and then clean, responsible consumption and production, how we live and what we do individually it makes a huge difference and then climate action, life below water and life on land and then number 16 is peace and justice and human rights and 17 is global partnerships so that's like a new framework that's really working in a way on the 70th anniversary to aim towards that and it's a good framework what they're calling it is building back better and I would call it building back better and balance and bold agenda where we look at all those as a guide on how we can achieve that. So would you call like sex trafficking does that would that be included in human rights issues? Definitely, yes. So human trafficking? That's what makes human rights a framework that's so powerful that it's hearing the voice that directly impacted people first and foremost because they're on the front lines so and that's who it matters most too not the fortunate people who can, we can still zoom and work but for the people on the front lines who are caught in this crisis that's where it matters most and so I would think definitely human trafficking is an issue we could focus on here in Hawaii but around the world it's one of the largest industries that actually does exist and so it's important for all of us to take actions on combating human trafficking. Of course, most people talk about sex trafficking but there's also the situation with the fish trawling and the boats and I've met a handful of people when I do a training for university in New South Wales Diplomacy Training Program and they have a situation where they help former fisher folk who had been human trafficked and forced to work on ships after they had taken their passports and made them work without any chance of getting off and returning home so it's a global crisis it's definitely a modern form, day form of slavery and so there's a lot that we can all work on in the front. Now, okay, a lot of us in the United States we see the way African-Americans are treated and we understand that problem but we may not be aware of some of the more serious problems throughout the globe. Can you provide us some examples of what is going on in other places in the world? Sure, and I can also link it to what we all know too, like right to housing is crucial. So if no one has employment now then there's no way they can pay for aspect so the right to housing is a crucial one that even in the United States we have to work a lot on because that's definitely a human rights issue also the right to healthcare. When the COVID crisis hit it pointed out that most of us think we're invincible and until we're sick do we ever think about health but health is definitely a human right and you see many more candidates as well as people in office recognizing the indivisibility of those rights and how they're interconnected and around the world there's definitely lots of human rights issues and we don't have to go far. Indigenous peoples is probably the largest one that's existed that has yet to be addressed and in Minneapolis that's actually one of the places where the American Indian movement was launched in the 70s because they would always the Minneapolis police force would take First Nations or Indigenous peoples the Lakota, Nakota, Lakota people from the region and the Great Lakes and take off their shoes and their jackets and leave them out in the cold to die. So that's not just with African-Americans but that discrimination has existed a long time prior and that's gone on for four centuries in fact five centuries plus. So that's happening all over the world. Right now I'd say probably the biggest example is the Uighurs. Million plus are in concentration camps to go back to your example of visiting concentration camps. Over a million Uighurs are in China in Xinjiang and they are forced to go to those camps and sing songs and shave off their beard and even forced to eat pork during Ramadan and all kinds of horrible things that go against the very essence of who they are and their spiritual beliefs. But another important aspect as well is you can have in certain cases the government sending people from the government and the military to move in with families. So you'd actually have this new uncle as we always joke around in Hawaii, whole uncle give this uncle who is a Han ethnic who then lives with your family and just sits there and listens to what you guys say at dinner and what you do. So I mean that goes to a form of oppression that many of us couldn't fathom. But that's a huge issue as well. For the Tibetans, which is just a little bit lower, huge issues there facing religious freedom but also self-governance. It's a total lack of any opportunity for Tibetan folks. There's also many nomadic herders who are then taken from the plains where they're living sustainably and practicing their own culture and of course to live in a dwelling and live into the economy that China set up for them. So those are examples there. I could go down just a little bit to the Mekong Delta. There there's farmers. Khmer Kron is what they're known as indigenous peoples of the Mekong Delta. And there always lived on that land. There's no official paper or titles but they've always lived there. And during this crisis, the Vietnam government moved in and evicted those farmers when they're at the most important time when they're planting the seeds so that they can have a rice harvest. So that eviction of them from their land, that land grab then has a huge consequence because they're spiritually related and connected to that land. So evicting them has a huge impact on them. But then also in the time that the rice would be planted and then the food would come up and they'd have enough for their people, they won't have that rice crop as well. So those are just a couple of examples in Asia. And if we go into the Pacific, probably the biggest issue is climate change. That's a climate, that's a huge human rights issue because first and foremost, it's long-term self-determination. Their views and their cosmology and way of seeing the world will be in a way taken under the waves. And you have countries such as Tuvalu and Kiribati where their way of life that's existed for centuries will be gone because their highest point on their islands is around six feet. I was in Tuvalu at the Pacific Island Forum last August. And we take it for granted, looking at the Kolaos and Leahi behind you about how beautiful our mountains are, but they don't have it, it's a coral atoll. And so when those waves get too big with king tides now, you can't survive. So you'll see people who live somewhere be forced to leave that land if we don't strive for the 1.5 degrees of carbon. And the good news is we measure that on Mauna Loa. So we can know how we're doing and how we're doing that, but we have to strive for the 1.5 that's in the Paris Agreement. And that's a good example. Hawaii was the first state to say we are still in and we're still in the Paris Agreement working for 100% renewable. And our actions here save lives in other places. So the more that we reduce carbon and decarbonize then the people of the Pacific will be able to survive and thrive. So Kiribati and Tuvalu, it's the right of self-determination to exist as a country and to maintain their own culture and determine their political destiny. But then immediately it's the right to water. And Tuvalu water is being salientated because the groundwater is being contaminated by the saltwater coming up. So that's huge because we can only live for a couple of hours without water, we know that. And then the food, their kalo is also being destroyed with the saltwater coming in. So then they can't have their own food. So then it's right to water, right to food. And then they're bringing in food from outside. And when they bring in food from outside, then of course it's right to healthcare because then they get diabetes and other health concerns. So it's self-determination, it's right to water, right to food, and then right to health. Those are examples of the Pacific. And we can also look, I think that's good as we can look at the solutions in that because Marshall Islands is looking at climate crisis and we're taking actions to focus on the climate, they could also respond easier to the COVID crisis and have very few deaths because they were thinking and coordinating that way from the ground to the global. And so I think the good news is by working on human rights, it provides a framework to ensure fundamental freedoms for all, but it makes sure everyone's involved in the solution. What it allows us to do is move beyond what's wrong towards what we want and making sure all voices are heard. And the other aspect about human rights is it keeps enlarging that circle so that everyone is included in that family of humanity because throughout time, people have always been excluded. So what as an American and as a viewer of this show, what can we do to further the solutions to human rights issues across the globe? Yeah, so first and foremost as Hawaii, we can connect with other Pacific Islanders and continue to work together. And we see a lot of solidarity with Marshall Islands and Micronesians around the nuclear test legacy. So that's one angle is being good neighbors in Oceania. And then as US, it's also to make sure we don't perpetuate a lot of those. So we just withdrew from the arms treaty. That's horrible. We're drawing from the Paris Agreement. That's equally horrible because then that lets other governments that didn't want to do their work say we don't have to cause the United States doesn't. So what's important is that we do lead by example and our leader, but then we also just walked away from the Human Rights Council, which was an election that we really worked hard to get on. And then of course we complain when we withdraw from the World Health Organization and then China steps in and has a greater role. So I think there's been a lot of blunders with our current foreign policies because it only perpetuates what they're saying is a problem and making it even worse exponentially. So I think we have to lead by example. I think also we can focus on our elected officials. We also have a lot of work to do. We're the only country in the world that hasn't ratified the convention on the rights of the child. All other countries of the world have done that. Before it was Somalia and then it was South Sudan. So we're the only country in the world that hasn't ratified the rights of the child. So we should definitely do that. It's known as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Senate has to vote by two thirds. So we have to do that. Also the Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities and also CDaw for Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. Because we haven't acted at the federal level, many cities are organizing human rights cities and adopting CDaw for women's rights and for children's rights and organizing that way. And that really brings it to education. Like most people don't know what their rights are so they're not standing up for their rights. But that's one thing we can definitely do in Hawaii is we could definitely make sure in DOE from the beginning that we know what our rights are. That everyone should know the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UDHR and know all 30 articles. So that's a beginning. So do you think that protesting is, how do you feel that that impacts human rights? Do you think that that's a good direction? Yeah, it is one form of human rights. It is actually taking action of a human right because there's freedom of opinion, freedom of expression and freedom of assembly. So articles 19 and 20 of the UDHR is that. And also nonviolent direct action and diplomacy are just two sides of the same coin. Like people should do the right thing but if they don't do the right thing that's where the protests are powerful tools for transformative policies. And there are a lot of things that people were focusing on about the police for a long time. In fact, right now the US will be appearing before the UN known as the Universal Periodic Review in November of 2020. I'm the co-chair of the US Human Rights Network on that for the whole country. And the last time we were there in 2014, there was Ferguson and we had another huge uprising. So we haven't learned and done enough but the exciting thing is, I hate to say it because there's no sports, because we're at a standstill in society, we can't ignore it. So because it wasn't just one day and then everyone's moving and everyone's been home, it was a chance for everybody to say like, why are we saving our lives when we're allowing people to actually die? And it was an awakening where a lot of people know about it but we're all too busy in our lives doing everything we do. And there was no baseball to watch, there was no basketball playoffs going on. And it was a chance for everybody to say, well, what's life about and why are we doing what we do and what can we do to make sure? Because the truth is, if anyone's human rights are diminished, all of our rights are diminished. And it's that sense of spirit of solidarity that is at the core of human rights. So the protest, non-violent peaceful protest is a way to express your opinion, to try to influence when people aren't listening. And the truth is, in the United States these protests have ignited something that's definitely needed. Hawaii is the lowest rate of voter registration in the country. So what's really good about these protests is it's not a once going out there and taking action, it's we have to organize, mobilize and make sure that we plan. And then everyone votes and voting is just one day. But then after you elect someone, you can't think it's a holiday. So democracy is a full-time job and we've sort of left it to people who can do it. And it can't be that way. It's gonna require all of us to be involved. And I think everyone realized that the country's worth it. That in a way, if you look at it like a Jerry Springer episode, the United States can always feel good because we say, oh my gosh, look at China, look at Russia. Oh my God, look what's going on in this Africa. But the truth is, we also can say, what can we do and how can we make it better? Because when everyone's human rights are observed, all of our lives are better. And so that the moral arc is definitely shaped that way but we have to help bend it quicker and better. And definitely Josh, it seems like we've been doing that with the protesting and also with the pandemic, there's certainly been changes with the climate that are favorable. But we are about out of time. Yes. Thank you so much, Josh. You've enlightened us so much today. I'm Katharine Nora. This is Community Matters on the Think Tech Live Streaming Network series. We've been talking with Josh Cooper about human rights, aloha.