 So hello, good morning, everyone. I hope you can see me and hear me. So this is the second session of today's programme. Many thanks to the previous panellists. They gave us a great lead into the discussion of this second session. Our focus is on embedding environmental sustainability in the theatre and performing arts sector. And we will be discussing whether and how theatre and the performing arts can be agents of change in the context of the climate emergency, of course, and what role the sector could play towards a fair green transition. And furthermore, to what degree might this transition affect artistic creation itself or the way cultural organisations have been operating so far. In short, we want to discuss whether we are faced with a challenge or whether we should look at it as an opportunity. So for this second panel discussion, we are very happy to be joined today by artist, writer and theatre maker Benjamin Verdunck. I'm not sure if we can see everybody. Good morning, Benjamin. Also joined by Natalie Drehmmeyer, who is a dramaturg and curator. And she has brought to the forefront a wave of contemporary theatrical creation connected to climate change. Can we, is Natalie here? Hello. Hello, hi. I'm part of it, yes. Eva Johansson, a cultural journalist with a background in environmental studies, who is currently in charge of the project art climate transition at the New Theatre Institute in Riva. Eva, are you with us? Hi. Hi. And finally, Ben Twist, director of Creative Carbon Scotland, who brings with him a wealth of experience in methodologies and policies of embedding sustainability and culture. We have chosen to open this panel discussion not with a keynote speech, but so to speak with a keynote performance. And this will be Carousel by Benjamin Verdunck. Just a few words to contextualize. Carousel is part of a collection of small new works by Benjamin Verdunck, that he is currently showing during his one year long world tour of his city, Antwerp. Carousel is a work intended to be presented at any time and at any place. It's yet another step in Benjamin Verdunck's exploration of fluid theatre forms that evade the tension between making and showing between local and international. So Benjamin, the floor is to you. I see it in counter. Do you see it? Yes. Okay, okay. So it goes like this. The other way around. That was it. That was the work. I don't know if it was visible. It was visible, I think to everybody. Thank you very much. And of course, some things that I want to point out in connection to this work. On one hand, the simplicity and the minimalism of materials. And on the other hand, I think what the Carousel brings is this idea perhaps of localized mobility. Which maybe also is reflected in your world tour inside your own city. So could you expand a little bit? Of course, it's not the first work of art in this concept. You have been working in this line of thought for many, many years. Can you elaborate a little bit? Well, I was thinking about what I would, what I wanted to say that I think the first thing I wanted to say is that, that all of my work starts from an enthusiasm towards the work. So it's not only that it's like that it's directed by, by meanings. It starts out of enthusiasm about what you want to do. So that's like one part of the work, what you like to do. And then the other part, of course, is like the need as something external, I think you have to make this kind of work. And there, for some years already, I'm making, my work is becoming smaller, not only in proportion and in the use of materials, but also in the, yeah, as you mentioned, the kind of, you could call it simplicity, but let's say like smaller in, not spectacular anymore. It's trying to be like a small gesture rather than a bigger one. And I think the main sentence which leads me through for some years already, which leads me, it's like I had a talk, it's already I think 10 years ago with a philosopher in Berlin and we were talking about environment and about catastrophe and things like that. And then at the end of the talk, the last question I asked him, and it was already late at night, it was like, what more do you think there is to do? And this many answer to me to withdraw gracefully. And this really meant a lot to me. And I think on the, yeah, this withdrawal is of course very readable in what we as especially Western people have to do if we think about fair practices, if we think about justice, climate justice, social justice, we have too much, this is clear. But also this word gracefully in grace, it meant something to me as a metaphor into my art practice as well, like what could be like a gracious way to become smaller. So yeah, I don't know if this is as an explanation enough, like this is like for me a starting point. It's something which I carry with me for a long time. And so for the last years, my work really becomes smaller because I really feel the urge to be as flexible as possible towards theater structures, let's say to the way you are programmed that you can very quickly respond to a certain, on a certain moment that you don't have to be, I should say that you don't have to be asked to one year or two years in advance to make sure that you can play there, et cetera, like this kind of structures we know. But so I'm very much working on this very, at the moment programming. So this makes it possible also that I can react on things that are happening and that I really like, and that I can through my work engage myself. And this is something that I think is very important. So let's say I really like the things I make and this is the thing I want to do. And when there is, for instance, like an extinction rebellion action, then I'm always asking myself, instead of going there as a citizen and taking part of this action, is it possible to take part through my work to engage through my work? And so since I have very small work, I have the possibility to take it with me towards this kind of action. And in this way, it contributes to this action with my work. And this is the thing I'm looking for. Sorry, along the same lines that you were talking about your work. Since this first part of the discussion will hopefully focus more profoundly on creative responses to the idea of sustainability and to the urgency of climate change. Besides your personal expression through your work, is this at the same time a comment on how theatre making should perhaps reconsider itself in general? Yes, for sure. And not only a comment. It is much more than that. It is like an exercise, an attempt on showing or looking together with. So what could be different strategies in dealing with this necessary change? For sure. So for instance, I refused to fly for some years already. And I have the luck that I was asked quite often to go internationally. So if I go internationally, then I do it by train, which means that it costs a lot more money. And so what I do is I make calculations of why it costs more money, why I have to do it this or that way. And then I publish this calculation. So for me, the most important thing is that you kind of, that you are in the possibility to politicize your choices. So in this way, I try not only to comment, but I try to look for other ways of touring, other ways of making things. And so I like to define it that it's not only through my work, but it's also the practice around the way you deal with things, the way you make things, the materials you use, the way you pay the people that work with you, what you eat, the way you travel, why you accept an invitation and why you don't accept another one. That all these things that they are told, that they make part of the story together with the work. So the work that you just saw is the materialization of this work, but there is a big ID around it. And this ID has to be told as well. And this is the, this is the politicization of the work. And this is the most important step. And this is not, this is not a comment. It is an attempt away, an exercise in, in taking steps forward to what we think is possible, necessarily. We will come back later to this discussion, because in the second part of our conversation, I would like us to focus on the resistance, because the creative process is a more personal affair and you have much more control on it. But once you begin to look into the practice or the system that supports the practice, then of course, that doesn't depend entirely on you. So this is where we, we, we face some kind of resistance from the practices that are already in place. So I would like us to, to come back to this discussion, but for the moment, I still want to focus on the creative responses in your case, the narrative and the practice coincide. So the artwork and your footprint as an artist is in a holistic way, sustainable, so to speak. But I would like to, to move now also briefly to Natalie. Again, to, to ask her, of course, you know the work of Benjamin Verdunck and you have been working with artists that are trying to tackle the, the, the urgent, urgent question of climate change through their creative means. Do you think Natalie that this is a trend or is it a necessity that comes out of the point where we are now in time? Hello, I would like to thank for the invitation and happy to talk to everyone. So I think it is a necessity. So, but in some theaters, it's a trend. That's the problem. I think if you don't really get really deep to work really deep on the topic, but I would like to tell you I worked a lot with scientists, for example, since 10 years. That's very important, I think, to collaborate with the science. For example, the first time was the festival, the C climate, which I made seven years ago. And after that, I made a climate research trip and found out that the more countries are affected by the consequences of climate change, the more the team is treated on stage. It was very interesting. So in Europe, it was not such a lot like in other parts of the world. So in some parts, like in Southeast Asia or South America, it's one of the most important topics in the theater place. And very often the climate plays are based on real conflicts, which are very often combined with fiction. So, sorry, I don't see you. I had an example, for example, the little theater on the Philippines stages the experience of those who have become speechless, fallen silent in their production Imagination. The group deals with the question of how a society can redefine itself after a catastrophe. It was created after the Typhoon Haiyan, which has this huge power because of the heat of the sea. And there's another possibility, or example, the Peta, the Philippine Educational Theater Association works with survivors by helping them to break through the physical and psychological bonds of their collective, but individual experienced trauma by means of anti-trauma workshops, which were guided by psychologists and theater makers. And many theater groups form a lobby with their audience so as to draw attention and to jointly demand the rights from politicians. And I really like that during my research, I really found that the language of theater links people worldwide. So it was really nice to see how many theater people worldwide are working on this topic. And yeah, we had the chance to work together. I was an adapted drama troupe for a good time. I was in Indonesia and the Philippines, for example. I was created or asked to create a performance for the conference of the Global NDC Conference of the 350 representatives of the country who signed the Paris Climate Agreement. They were invited in Berlin. And with people, we created the Climate Pop-Up Theater and performers and authors from Asia, Africa, Australia, America, Europe were involved. And the people were all based in Berlin or were invited by other cultural institutions for the moment. And the audience was invited to reflect on their roles in creating these futures and the narratives needed to tackle with the climate crisis. I would like to read a part with Shana Tabasi, knowledge manager and specialist from the UN's FCCC Climate Technology Center. Network of the Yarn City in Copenhagen wrote about the Climate Theater. I remember the Climate Pop-Up Theater very fondly. After a conference day where everyone was busy discussing technical details on how to solve the climate crisis, it was like a breath of fresh air to be reminded of the humanity behind it all. Climate change is not only the topic of a policy document. Climate change impacts women, boys, men, girls, and other humans on this planet in cross-cutting ways. The theater created a personal setting where the global audience could get lost in dance, poetry, and song to connect the memories of the past and the future and remind us of why we were there. So this was very important for me. In the beginning of the work I've done in this context, I had the impression, okay, I'm asking always the scientists to be part of my project, but I had so many discussions or talks with scientists and they said, okay, it's so important for us to work together with the artists, the theater people for example, because the problem or the problem of the climate change or climate crisis seems to be so difficult to understand and to describe and because the principles of course and the effect is not really understandable. It's a really big complexity and it needs, or there's a desire for visualization for concretization and actually to work together. And in my opinion, it's very important to create this kind of utopias as a positive counter-design. So do you think from your experience, do you get the feeling that when culture and science work complementary, is this a shortcut towards the necessary change, system change, awareness? I think it's one possibility to work together. So I think it's important that a lot of people know everything, nearly everything about the climate change. So it's not possible to understand, as I said, a complex system, but I think we need now a new way to touch the people, to reach the people in an emotional way. This is the most important thing because you can understand what happens, but when you are emotionally touched, then it makes something else with your body, with the people, with the audience. So it's getting deeper than only the information about the climate crisis and what happened worldwide. So for example, the coronavirus, I was very surprised how fast something happened. So it's really like, okay, now there are only few flights, the shops are empty, the streets are empty. So we feel that we are part of the nature, part of our body is part of the nature. So we were really in danger because that's why we change everything. The capitalistic system changed. And I was really surprised that it was possible so fast. So the people from the first countries, for example, they feel it now, and it's a part of very dangerous things. So it's a question of life or death sometimes. They lose their homes and everything. So yeah, I think it should be more connected, to the scientists and the activists as well, to work together. So it's not only the theater people making some project about it, but it's really a collaboration network. Alison told it before, it's really important to not making a challenge of it, but to work together with their scientists, their activists, the audience, the people working in theater. And that's why I created, for example, a working group at the theater where I'm working at the moment, the Hans-Otto Theater in Potsdam, to invite all of these people to work together and to create something new. Besides the... Okay, we are making this kind of demonstration. We are publishing this kind of articles and we are making our theater project. I think this is the most important thing to collaborate worldwide. And I think it's really important to work together with all the people who are working on this topic in your country and in the countries of the world. So it's quite interesting to see that there is a wave, not a trend. I will not say that, although sometimes, as you said, it might look like it's a response to a trend. But at the same time, you can see that there is a wave of artists that make us feel that theater has a more essential, profound role to play in this transition towards what we hope will be a more sustainable future. And I want to move to Eva. You are coordinating a project with a very tail-entitled art climate transition in Riga, the new theater institute. So why did you, as a team, embark on this project? And what shapes, artistic shapes it will take and what do you expect from it? Hello, it's nice to be among you. I'm very honored to be here today. And thank you, Natalie, for actually putting the really important points and the points that it's very difficult to understand complex systems. And also it's very important to put things emotionally. I would also add, practically, and thank you, Benjamin, for reminding about this flexibility, smallness, ethical society and activism. We are a very small NGO, theater NGO. We are only three, four people in office and we don't have any acting space. So I think we are an interesting partner for this European project. And actually what we do, we create the International Theater Festival Homo Noz every year. And what we do, we really try to be socially active, politically active, and the creative director, Gunda Galev, and she always invites artists who work with local communities. And one of the things that was important for me, the things that I believe in is that when we talk about climate change, is to work with young people. It's my strong belief because they are the next decision makers and those who will create the everyday life choices. And another thing that I've actually come in my mind is that it's important not to use these horror stories or the word crisis or this cascade effect of death and everything else and as a biology student, I really know what is in front of us practically. It is a horror story. But when we start to approach with the performances or something that scares you, especially young people, emotionally and also psychologically, I think our subconscious really throws this away. So my approach is that it's important to inspire to be quite positive and inspire for small steps and talk about values and processes in our society, which is also working in all levels, which is social activism and interdisciplinary and eco-feminism and all those things. And one of the things we've done this summer was a really nice project called Party Animals. You can see on your screens. We invited young people from all kinds of reggae districts to create their own identities, the new identities of successful people. And what they did, they had lectures for the two days where they were told about how, for example, clothing industry works, how the fashion industry creates all those piles of garbage. And they went to secondhand and they got new knowledge how to actually shop ethically and how to create performance ethically. And they helped each other. They were not professionals and they worked for two days to create their new identities, which made them think about what is the successful person nowadays, someone who has the best iPhone or who has the best clothes or who has the best most likes on Instagram. So in the end, they met in a rave party, which was one of the Homo Novas festival performances where actually the performers were young people themselves in their new identities. So it was very fun, very inspiring, very positive. They were working together with really good artists and they created their own play where after which parents were texting me that they don't want to buy new clothes for school and they don't want to be involved in this fashion industry anymore. So by projects like this, I think when we approach young people where we actually talk with them where they create their own performances is the way that we can actually, as you asked me about this project, grasp this idea of both social activism and both environmental issues, which are positive in a way. And well, the next idea I'm having in my mind is our festival is small. So I would say it's quite sustainable. We don't buy things or we don't use plastic or anything like that. But one thing I would like to step further is to invite good chefs and good food makers to create food for festival artists which is used from the food, let's say food garbage, which has thrown away from the, which has become a garbage from the shops, when they throw away lots of piles of food, which the term has ended. So we decided it would be interesting to feed the whole festival team from the foods that is thrown away and also, which is of course safe and made by good chefs. So that's my idea when we, let's see, have the next festival hopefully in these times. So thank you very much, Eva. Well, something that was said during the previous discussion, which was whether that's partly the main point of our discussion here. Is it a challenge or is it an opportunity? I'm personally very confident that we may choose to look at it as an opportunity. And so far from the three of you, the positive approach and the creative approach does fortify my conviction that it can be and it should be an opportunity for a different kind of future for theater. And I would like to move to Ben. Hi, Ben. Thank you so much for your patience. I'll try to make it up to you now. There isn't why I left you last, but not least Ben, is because you actually work and have worked for many years at the intersection between the creatives and the organizations. And I hinted at this problematic relationship at the beginning because you may have the creatives jump on this opportunity to change the narratives or their practices even, but then you have the system, you have heavier structures that might find it more difficult to A change and second to facilitate change for those working inside them. So could you please tell us a little bit about your work and how it relates to our discussion? Sure. And it might just be useful to know for those of you from the theater world, I've been a theater director most of my life and only moved into the world of climate change back in 2009. I now combine the two and the interesting thing also perhaps is that since then I've also done a PhD on a doctorate on how to bring about and how to influence system change, how to bring about system change and we've been talking about system change quite a lot. And just on that opportunity, I think some of the most interesting work that I've done in my whole career has been in the last 10 years working on the intersection of climate change and culture. So I certainly think there's an opportunity and a bit like Alison, I've met some very interesting people and it's challenged me perhaps even more than directing those plays and running theaters. We've done a lot at Creative Carbon Scotland working in two fronts. One is helping the cultural sector reduce its carbon emissions and adapt to the impacts of climate change. And I want to stress that adaptation is just as important as carbon reduction because climate change is happening around us and that brings some challenges for the whole theater sector. But on the other side also, we encourage theater makers and other cultural practitioners to incorporate climate change into their work in all sorts of ways from the practical to the conceptual. But the other thing we also do is that we place artists in non-art settings in climate change projects because we think that artists can bring a bit of skills and knowledge and references and expertise to those projects that actually the climate change world really needs because it's with a big, big challenging problem that we've got here. They need every idea they can get. So that's the two main areas that we work on. But just going back to that question of structures, if you like, one of the ways in which we work from the very beginning at Creative Carbon Scotland and this comes from my research on climate change, is that you need to work with individuals because individuals do bring about change but unless the organizations they work with are also thinking about change and supporting change and providing an authorizing environment, those individuals can't act. They don't have the agency to bring about change. And similarly, the organizations if they want to bring about change, they can't do that if the individuals aren't interested in change. And then at the level above, the organizations, the governments, the local governments, the trade unions, the trade associations, they all need to be allowing the organizations to think about change and to bring about change. And similarly, they can't do that unless the organizations are doing it. So we've always worked on this individual organizations and structures approach. We work with funding bodies, we work with the government and we need to push on all three fronts, I think, to bring about the system change that has been touched upon in the last session and I think in this one. And I think that system change, I think it was Natalie who spoke about the absolutely crucial importance of emotion. Yes, I agree. The absolute importance of facts. Yes, I agree. But actually none of these things on their own do it. To bring about system change, you need to operate on all different levels and in many, many different ways. And one of the challenges is you never quite know what it is that brought about that change. But it certainly requires constant pushing in all sorts of directions and all sorts of different ways. And just sort of following on from that a bit, the other thing that I think we've used quite a lot is working from the bottom up and from the top down. So when we started at Creative Carbon Scotland, I was talking to people within the sector and there was a reasonable amount of excitement and desire for this work on climate change from the theatre sector and other sectors in the arts as well. But there was also, I went to talk to the government and I said, right, the legislation you've brought in, how does that apply to the arts? How does that make sense here? And by working from the top down and the bottom up, we were able to bring about real action and real change. So now the cultural sector in Scotland I think is way ahead and very supportive of this work. And actually in many respects has been leading the funders. There's not a resistance to it at all. It's actually very, very positive. And alongside that I think one of the things we've done is we've used regulation. There is, like in England there is a very challenging set of requirements for cultural organisations to measure and reduce their carbon emissions if they get a certain sort of funding. But also there's a voluntary movement so that many, many people are doing this. We have 250 organisations who belong to our community of practice, the Green Arts Initiative, who do it because they want to. And some of them are required to as well but only maximum of about 100 of those will be required to. And I suppose the other, we've provided a lot of support and enabled that to happen so that people aren't afraid of failing. And I think we also see so many else touched upon the need to build confidence and do it with a generosity of spirit. We support, we encourage people rather than we're the Green Policemen or the Green Nag and just make sure that people feel very confident in what they're doing. And we work with the enthusiasts. We don't worry about the people who aren't enthusiastic. When they realise where the party is, they'll join us. And what we've discovered is that that certainly happened. Because I just want to go back in a way to some of the things that from Benjamin's presentation. There's a wit and a joy I think in that small work there. And what we've seen is some opportunities that that provides. And I think that what we all constantly need to do is look for the interesting ways of doing things and look for the opportunities. One of the things that came up in the first session was that, and I believe, I didn't see it, but I believe from the young people, business as usual is no longer an option. Change is coming whether we like it or not. And that's because of the carbon reduction requirements, but also the adaptation to the impacts of climate change. So we need to and I think it's important to remember that the way in which we operate our art system now has not been like this for probably long. I'm old enough to remember that it was quite different when I started back in the 80s. And it won't be like this in 10, 20 years time. And actually we need to make a new future. We need to build a better future post-Covid and what have you. And take the opportunity now. Sorry, I'll stop there. You want me to stop? The problem is that we have got just a little bit of time left and because we got a little bit behind schedule today. But I want to follow up from what you were saying Ben actually and just open this final question to everybody for shorts, perhaps closing remark. Of course we need to read how do we embed sustainability in the theater performing arts sector that was our question. And so obviously we need to raise awareness we need to mobilize emotions and we need to change to break through the system and the current practices. Benjamin 10 years ago or so you wrote a manifesto which you addressed to your colleagues in the performing arts sector in Belgium which basically was like an artistic exercise asking them to practice very strict environmental rules for a period of six months and this is where you realized I'm guessing that the resistance perhaps was greater than you thought. So my final question to everybody starting from Benjamin is how do you think we could break this resistance? What is the fastest and quickest way and more effective way? Benjamin I don't see you anymore. There is a I don't know if I have an answer to your question but what I remember is that the resistance was huge and most of the resistance was like okay we respect it what you do but it should be an individual choice like people are free but all artists are free as well and so it's your choice to do so and it's good to do but art is a place where you can dream and you could do whatever you want and then there is this thought like for instance in terrorist times everybody understands that his individual freedom is framed because there is like a bigger necessity there is like responsibility for everyone to do so so that you cannot do any longer whatever you want to do and I think this kind of mind change should also come in in art that art is no longer and this is another thing I want to say but I will say it later that art and especially the organization of art is no longer this free neoliberal playground that we know until now and that it's no longer a matter of looking at it as a product to be sold as quick as possible so that's a quick answer in fact I wanted to say something else but maybe but please because we are running out of time I get messages but please go ahead and say it together we have to say no but I really wanted to say something I will say it very small and that is that I really believe in interconnectivity and I really believe the thing will be a lot of small things in art everything is possible and of course art can engage literally into taking position into finding new ways into doing propositions but at the other hand I think the value the real value of art is art and this means that we have to be careful as well that art doesn't get instrumentalized and I believe that art as well can play a very important role into this whole question but not always as being the most outspoken saying like we should do this of beware of the catastrophe that is coming or we should do this no art should work on possibilities and this is what art is like which eventually can become reality it's like a dream something and also art can be as well the place where you can find a place to give image to your anger to your grief to your anxiety so art should not always be looked at the thing because we are the out of the box thinkers like okay let's give the final word to the artist we as well are just part of the whole transition and we should not forget that the intrinsic qualities of art are very useful as well although they are not always so outspoken as people should wish they are so that Benjamin I think that's really rounding up from your side from your presentation to your comment here and can I also ask a couple of final words from Natalie and Eva and just a quick word from Ben as well before we close should I start or would you like to start Eva Natalie you go ahead I just thought about it the problem is in a worldwide look that we have to give up privilege I think so for example it's not only a question of the topic which are artists are working on in their production but how you produce your production for example to invite artists from different parts of the country where they don't have so much money and to stay longer for example not only for one performance to invite them they can show their productions in whole Europe so it's not the question is how who showed the performance of first was it Brussels Berlin or Paris it's really important to work together and to stay longer time in the countries where are you so and it's not like so it's really a deep connection and not a challenge it's how we can work together so it would be the worst thing to say okay international work isn't possible because we have no chance to fly it's very important for all the countries who exchange for example I was just invited five minutes ago from the Jakarta Art Council if I could make a video about the work which I've done in Germany so we can make this kind of connection when we have this kind of connection and yeah it's great to use the possibilities to work together thank you Natalie sorry we need to start the next session so I really would like to move to Eva and have a final remark from her as well thank you yes so I think it's important to have courage firstly and secondly to really support those artists who work with the climate justice or climate environmental change issues so I think be example of your own institute to really support artists give them residencies, support them in these times when it's hard to create work with residencies or giving them a chance to work with these issues thank you Eva and then one two words we need to stop incremental change and move towards transformational change we can't keep doing the small things we've been doing and I would say that the interesting artists are the ones who are doing that so actually I don't worry about the people I don't worry about instrumentalization and I don't worry about the artists who resist because I think the really good artists are the ones who are doing it and are interested and that because all artists politics and that is what is we are this is a big big political issue and so the most interesting art is coming out of this topic well thank you very much everybody it's been a pleasure and an honour to have you with us and I think I hope everybody who has been following this discussion have been convinced now that what we facing is not a challenge but it is definitely a wonderful opportunity for the future so thank you very much everyone thanks again thank you