 Good morning and welcome to the 19th meeting of the Education, Children and Young People Committee in 2023. The first item on our agenda today is a round table on violence in schools. The committee is aware of a number of incidents of violent behaviour which have taken place in schools across Scotland over the past year. We wanted to understand more about these incidents so we have arranged this round table to hear from a range of different voices on this issue. In particular, the committee is keen to understand how common incidents of violence in schools are, which factors contribute to such incidents taking place in our schools, and what could be done to help students, parents and teachers. I welcome our witnesses in no particular order. I have Anne Keenan, assistant secretary of EIS Scotland. Mike Corbett, national officer for Scotland at the National Association of School Masters Union of Women Teachers. Beau Johnson, member of the Scottish Youth Parliament. I'm doing this so I can figure out where everybody is as well. Carrie Lindsay, executive director of education and children services at the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland. Dr Colin Morrison, co-director of the Children's Parliament. Nick Smiley, chair of the Association of Scottish Principal Education Psychologists. Dr Joan Mout, senior lecturer in the School of Education at the University of Strathclyde and Cheryl Burnett, chair of the National Parent Forum of Scotland. Thank you all for joining us today. We have a bit of housekeeping to begin. The session is around table, and it is intended to be more of a conversation, rather than the question and answer session we give and put through our Government ministers that come to visit us. Members will pose questions to help create a structure for our discussion. However, if you want to come in during the session, please catch my eye or one of the clerks that are sitting to my left, and I'll do my best to bring you in. Okay, so thank you. I was hoping to start off with the first opening question today just to set the scene. I'll pass it to Cheryl Burnett first, if that's okay. Does the panel think that we are currently have a clear picture of the violence that is taking place in schools across Scotland? For the National Parent Forum, we have recently conducted a survey last week on the response to parent concerns and complaints that have been raised regarding behaviour in schools and the term violence in schools. We have seen a rise in the formation of all the issues arising. It's culturally always happened, if we would be really honest. It's always within a school building, within the communities, but I think that the rise, again, post Covid has really brought this to fruition. So yes, overwhelmingly parents have agreed that, in terms of the result, show that. Thanks, Cheryl. Mike Corbett, can I ask you to respond to that, please? In response to the direct question, do you, I presume you, the committee, have a way to people? I think that we, as an organisation via our members, certainly do. I think that the initial point that I would make, though, is that this has been around as an issue for a while. If you look back at 2019 and survey figures that we had of members then, they were reporting that verbal abuse was an issue for about 55 per cent of our members and physical assault was an issue for about 13 per cent of our members. If you look at the most recent figures we have, that has risen. So we're now 60 odd per cent talking about verbal abuse in the past year, 17 per cent talking about physical assault in the past year. I think that it's important to make that point that, yes, there has been an increase post Covid, but it's clearly not the only issue that's been around for a while, but it's useful that we're in this forum today and that the cabinet secretary has announced a summit on this so that we can get this acknowledged and hopefully start trying to address it. Can I ask Anne to respond as well? Yes, thanks. I'm keen in, sorry. I'm using your first names and full names for broadcasting if it seems a bit formal, just so they can zoom in. Thanks very much. I would agree with what Mike has said about this being with us for some time. The IS has long supported members in dealing with issues around violence and around distressed behaviours. It's something that we've campaigned for in terms of increased funding, particularly around ASN. Most recently we have seen and post Covid more and more comments from members and reports from our reps that this is a rising issue, and we had our AGM in Avymor at the weekend. I have to say that that was a significant focus of a number of the motions that were brought before us was this rising need. We had our national executive yesterday, and again it was a topic of discussion. Unsurprisingly, as a result of an all-member survey that we did, this was a large feature. You'll have seen from our written evidence that we've published a number of the findings from our members in relation to that survey. We have almost three quarters of respondents to that survey, indicating that they were stressed frequently all of the time. When you start to underpin and look at what comes beneath that, 53 per cent of secondary school respondents said that improved pupil behaviour would have the biggest impact on their wellbeing. 71 per cent of secondary school respondents said that managing behaviour was the biggest driver of workload, and we know particularly from colleagues who had impastoral support and senior management teams that that can be a particular issue for them. If you look at the primary sector, 65.2 per cent of respondents indicated that the biggest impact on their wellbeing would be having more classroom assistance and more support for inclusion in ESN, with 70 per cent saying that that would assist their workload more. There is clearly a feeling from our members that there is an issue that has to be dealt with. Unsurprisingly, we have now launched our campaign that looks at ASN workload but, importantly, pupil behaviour to respond to those requests from our members. I think that as our conversation goes on today, I'm sure that some of the members might pick up on those. This is going to be a bit structured this bit while I'm trying to get everyone involved. Can I come to Nick Smythley, please? Yes. Thank you. I think that, obviously, you will see from the papers that have been submitted that in terms of concern around behaviour in schools, it's something that has been around for a long time, and there has been a national approach and a lot of work done in this area, but there is no doubt that the current context is becoming more challenging and there are issues that we're all facing and the impact on teachers as our union colleagues are telling us is significant. We have to bear in mind that the factors that underlie this can't be captured in a very black-and-white way. It's complex in terms of the factors that affect children's behaviour and the factors that are in play just now, particularly post-pandemic, have been significant in terms of what we're dealing with. We have seen an impact in terms of particularly younger children in terms of their behaviour and communication and capacity to cope in a school setting and distress behaviour is what we're dealing with and is proving a bit of a challenge, I would say, across all of our schools and early learning and childcare centres. There's also the impact at a secondary school level in terms of young people's mental health is still a big concern for us and the impact on attendance, et cetera. It's an issue that people have been concerned about for a long time, but I think there are factors in play just now that's making it a more complex and more challenging issue. It's something that we're going to have to get to grips with in terms of how we support schools to address these issues. It's not something that schools can tackle on their own. As has been mentioned before, behaviour is a reflection. It's a societal issue as well as a school issue, and it can't just be looked at through the lens of what happens in a school. Can I ask Bo Johnson to come in next? I think Nick brought up a lot of points that are very relevant to us at Scottish Youth Parliament personally and as a member of Scottish Youth Parliament. We don't feel there's been enough consultation with children and young people on this issue and their views on it. Particularly because at SYP a lot of our work is brought to us by children and young people themselves and the issues that they feel are most important guide our work and what we prioritise in terms of our campaigns and our policy work and things like that. This isn't an issue that has been brought to us which suggests that it's maybe not at the top of children and young people's priorities but are things like educational attainment and the education reform, things like mental health and better support for mental health, UNCRC, incorporation, things like that. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not an issue for young people. It's just not top of priorities and I think there needs to be more consultation with children and young people on that. I know that you're keen to come back in, Cheryl, but I was keen to get everyone to come in initially. Carrie, would you like to respond to that initial question, please? I suppose the question about whether there's a clear picture is quite a good question because the data that we have perhaps uses slightly different definitions in different places because there isn't a firm definition about what violence or distress behaviour is that people have possibly used and there are different systems that are used to record incidents. I think that we have a lot of information but I don't think that we have that full picture and I agree absolutely with Bo. I think that to be working with our children and young people that particularly the health and wellbeing census gives a lot of information about how we can start to gather that. There are lots of local authorities that are having samples in particular schools asking the young people do they feel safe and what things do they feel could be done. I think that there's a perception in the media that's been put out there of individual situations that have happened that have been quite serious that are not necessarily as prevalent as perhaps it would appear from the media and I think that that gives almost a social norm effect where young people are believing that that might be happening everywhere and I think that that's where it is really important to have those conversations with our young people to be gathering their views about what their experiences are in schools along with parents and along with staff and I agree with Bo on that. I think that the clear picture isn't yet there. I think that Education Scotland are doing a report I believe that we're expecting in July and hopefully that will give us a bit more information as I say the health and wellbeing census will give us some information. We have been gathering some data as directors of education looking at the statistics across some of our local authorities so we're starting to build a picture but there's not that clear national picture at the moment I wouldn't say. Dr Morrison, Dr Colin Morrison. Hold on, it's not your mic. That's been on there. There we go. I think that the initial problem for us is the whole framing of this discussion and in fact with respect to the question there's no definition about what we're talking about here so first of all if we're talking about violence a work in definition for us would be violence is defined as behaviour by people against people liable to cause physical or psychological harm so is that what we're talking about today so if it is that gives the discussion some parameters that we can all understand if we're talking about behaviour for us we would then talk about relationships we have worked over the last 30 years alongside some amazing school based colleagues not just teachers we need to remember there are many adults in a school setting worked with all those adults and children to change things like behaviour policies to relationship policies and when you do that you change the whole way of being in the culture of a school this is not just about the kind of practices that people can adopt like restorative practices or whatever this is about it's a hearts and minds piece and if you change the nature of your relationships then you address challenges and difficulties in those relationships so our schools are not places of violence they may be places where incidents happen but to paint this picture that we have a problem of violence in schools does not reflect the day to day experiences of teachers who go in with love and nurture and hard work and build relationships with children and focus on learning and teaching that's what happens in our schools day to day so I'm concerned about the framing of that I know we'll dig deep now but I just think it's really dangerous of us to develop this narrative that our schools are dangerous places in places of violence because they're not I'm not quite sure that's how we had framed today we're just trying to understand a bit more about what's going on but can I speak to Dr... bring in Dr Mawrth please First of all, I agree with a lot of what Nick said and I won't pick up on the framing issue but I agreed with, in principle with a lot of what was said there I think I would like to frame my response within recognising that there are current concerns around violence and behaviour in schools but I think that Scottish education has a great deal to be proud of there's been a significant cultural change in Scottish schools a much greater recognition of underlying reasons for why children behave in the ways that we do and it's led to a much more empathetic approach towards children with relationships, trust and children's rights to the fore and that's been a significant change that I have seen going back to our own days of being a deput head working in a deprived area however I think cultural change is a very difficult thing to achieve it doesn't happen overnight it takes a lot of work and it takes time so I think it's very very important that we continue with the approaches that we're adopting at the moment but look to see how they can be improved in terms of responding to your question about do we have the data and I don't really think that we do on this in terms of the national picture because the behaviour survey was delayed by two years so it's actually almost six years since we had the last behaviour survey we're still waiting to find out the data for the exclusions in terms of violence in schools assault in schools that hasn't been published for the period since more recently and I think if we look at the comparison between the two latest sets they're not a true comparison because the fact that schools were closed during a lot of that time so I think there's a lot of data emerging from third sector organisations which is very very valuable but in terms of the national picture I think it's you know we're not quite there yet but I think we'll have a much queerer position perhaps at the end of the year when the behaviour survey comes out and when the statistics come out for the next set of exclusions in schools to pick up on the point about the impact of Covid for the last two years my research has been focusing on the impact of Covid on children and families not looking more from a literature perspective not just in Scotland but internationally and there's a very strong message coming out about the mental health impacts of Covid on children and young people that inevitably impacts upon their behaviour and I think to pick up in some of what Colin was saying very often manifestations of what might be described as violent behaviour of assaults are often a sign of distress to children and I think it's important to frame it in that way I feel that schools are working very very hard to support children and young people and families and that's what I'm hearing in the small scale study that I'm conducting just now looking at how prospective head teachers have been supporting their school communities and to be honest the gone the second mile so I think schools are working very very hard to support children not just in terms of lost learning but in terms of their wellbeing and I think we need to put the emphasis on that I'm hoping we'll come into more of those because I was just trying to have a sort of an opening question there Dr Mavit to get the discussion going so we've got a sense of where people were and Stephen was wanting to come in and I've got Mike and I've got Cheryl so Stephen so there's a whole bunch of stuff that's been raised in the opening comments and it's tempting to go in about 100 different directions with some of the things that have been said things that are easy to agree with because they're lovely principles and then there's the reality and we've got the meeting I think of those two situations here we've got nice words and lovely ideas and then we've got the reality of what teachers are telling many of us is their daily experience in some of Scotland's schools in some of Scotland's classrooms but I think I'd maybe turn to Cary because I think Cary if you don't mind me saying I think you hit the nail on the head I don't think we actually know exactly what's happening in our classrooms because we've got such a variation of standard of reporting and I think I mean I asked for comments on this but what I think we need to do is at least agree that there needs to be a common standard for across Scotland situations that happen in a classroom or happen in a school and end up being reportable because at the minute again anecdotally because that's all we're reduced to in a lot of these discussions anecdotes we get told that I've certainly been told by quite a few teachers that they're positively discouraged from reporting some of the things that happen in their classrooms and I're told not to make a fuss about it in some cases people have been off work or even hospitalised the specific subjects around the data element were something that one of our other members was going to pick up but later on Stephen sorry but that's fine I know we're meant to be fostering a discussion so we'll take that point and we'll leave that there and then can I come to Mike and Cheryl please thank you, it's still on scale and just building on some of the points that have been made useful calling to try and establish what definition of violence are we talking about for ourselves we would go with the health and safety executive definition but it is important that we define what we're talking about in the first instance but in terms of scale we've had mention of the behaviour in Scottish schools research study which has been delayed and we will get that later in the year and that will prove a point of comparison obviously but even then we would be saying that there are still potentially question marks about that but that will help in terms of the data that's not going to be available until later in the year and just to reinforce the point that's just been made about reporting there are a huge variety in terms of reporting systems and it's not just because she's here but Fife councillor members in Fife say that Fife has done a lot of work recently to make it much easier for teachers to report incidents and you compare that to some other areas where it's a Byzantine system to try and actually get a report in of a violent incident and the last point sorry last but one I do think the results of the national discussion need to come into this I know Bo has said it's maybe not coming to the youth parliament being an issue but the results of the national discussion in the consultation with pupils there made it very clear that a number of pupils say they do not feel safe in school at the moment and the final point though is that we still do need to take a step back and acknowledge that there's great things happening in school there's been a lot of progress in terms of behaviour but the focus today is about what our members are telling us is an issue so for me that's why we're talking about it Thank you Mike Cheryl do you want to come in before I go to Pam? It's just in response to what you talked about the definitions you're right for us it's about the behaviour with our kids in school and making sure that their focus is in learning but what we also have to reflect on that there is a significant number of children young people impacted again I agree with the mental health and wellbeing we're seeing as parents that our kids are really stressed and anxious some of them are refusing to go to school their behaviour is altered in school as a result of whatever has happened through all the different within the home, within the community within the school setting itself and breaking down what you mean by behaviour is it a bullying behaviour is it an impact on mental health is it an additional support need specifically learning support need orientated but to go on the point of reporting our initial results of our survey has shown that over half of the parents that we have surveyed so far do not feel their children are safe in school and that's quite a damning response for us because as a parent you put your child to school you want to ensure that they're safe they're exactly like Colin Sifolk they're being safe and supported and if you're seeing that duality of the children don't feel safe at school and the staff don't feel safe at school then the system is broken and it needs to change so I'm welcoming this discussion around finding ways forward to resolve some of these issues that are long-term to say it's not something new as the previous colleague said Thank you Cheryl Pam Duncan-Clansey Thank you convener and thank you everyone for joining us this morning we have an advance which has been incredibly useful I want to pick up on some of the discussion we've had so far because I think it does feed into this issue of identification of the scale of the problem I am a bit concerned that we might fall even this morning we're falling into the trap of suggesting that there isn't the problem that there actually is and we've heard from Mike and Anne and others about the increases that they're seeing in the environment in schools I think it's fair to say that we look at what the certain newspapers might print on their front page about it but actually the low level in-discipline that's been raised with us is wearing on staff it's causing the wellbeing issues that Mike and Anne have highlighted and I think we're creating a bit of a pressure cooker environment in classrooms before I ask my question I want to make the point that I agree with Dr Mowatt and her analysis of the distress behaviours and with Nick Smiley there's distress here for young people and we have to get to the bottom of why that is in order to support them to better develop through their education but my concern is that first of all why do we have that inconsistent approach to reporting and why do some people say that they're scared to escalate it and when they try to escalate it it's not taken seriously and that they're told there's a fear of bringing the authority into disrepute if they do I think that culture has to be addressed if we're to get to the bottom of this so I guess my question would be to Anne, Mike and Carrie and would you like to kick off with that one, thanks thank you absolutely and I'm glad Pam if I can just mention at the beginning that you brought up the issue of low level disruptive behaviour because the feedback that we get from members is that persistent low level disruptive behaviour can actually be a huge increase in stress and a mental health and wellbeing of teachers so I appreciate we're talking about definitions here, we're talking about violence but that is also something that we need to look at in terms of improving the mental health and wellbeing of teachers and staff in general in schools looking at the reporting issue and the recording the feedback that we have got from members is incredibly variable that a particular issue can be that there is not the support for staff in terms of being given time to make that reporting there's also the concern that a lot of staff, or the feedback that we have from members is that if a staff has been involved in an incident then they're not necessarily given time to recover from that incident to consider the reporting issue some of the forms are particularly labour intensive we know from members that they have huge excessive workload that can in fact add to that workload if they're been asked to complete those forms and depending on the number of times that they have to complete the forms it is almost a kind of wearing down effect because the feedback is and this was also from some head teachers in our DHT and the DHT network was that the forms are completed in a way they are then sent to the local authority and they get no feedback as to what should happen thereafter so there's a perception that they are in one of our head teachers referred to as an infinite risk assessment process where they're being asked to complete forms do our risk assessment but no additional resourcing is given to be able to address any causes of the distressed or violent behaviour and I agree that this has to be framed in the context of additional support needs I'm not saying that every child with an additional support needs has a prospect of being violent what we are saying is that if a child or a young person is displaying distressed or violent behaviour then there's potentially an additional support need that needs to be addressed because of that so by not actually providing the resources to be able to do that that's a huge problem and the reporting element is from our member's perspective feeding into that there's no consistency we would like to see a return to the creation of national statistics in relation to this so that we can have some comparison and for forms to be as straightforward and as simple as possible so that salient information can be gathered consistently across the place it's not adding to workload and that mechanisms are in place where people are not being discouraged from doing so there is of course the concern that some people may some schools may feel that this would suggest that their schools have a particular problem we think that culture needs to change it needs to be much more open much more transparent so that teachers are being actively supported by their schools and by the local authorities to report these instance and thereafter that action is taken some kind of tracking thereafter so that you can see where do the resources need to lie where do we need to invest to actually address the problem and change the culture so there is a cultural issue there that we absolutely need to address and I was pleased to hear in the debate in Parliament the Cabinet Secretary referring to the importance of trusting teachers we not only need to trust teachers we need to support them and being able to deal with this Mike Corbett Thanks just to focus on that key point then Pam about fear of reporting we have got a cultural problem and I suspect that that has come originally from very well-intentioned aims to reduce exclusions for example but one of the unintended consequences of that I would suggest is that local authorities obviously get violent incidents from schools reported to them and exclusions etc and we would say our members certainly tell us that there's increasingly been a culture of fear almost among head teachers to report a large number of violent incidents because that makes their school look bad they don't want to exclude sometimes because that makes their school look bad so there's definitely a cultural issue and pressure on local authorities and head teachers and maybe because they've misunderstood the guidance but that absolutely leads to situations where individual teachers feel they're dissuaded as Stephen touched on earlier from actually reporting violent incidents in abuse anecdotal example we put in a couple of anonymised examples as part of our evidence to the committee we had an example from a teacher who was subject to homophobic abuse who was going to flirted with the idea of we could put in an anonymised example of your experience your terrible experience and at the last minute he withdo that despite the fact that it was anonymised and I think that shows you the fear that's there although there's a societal issue about particularly online abuse of minorities at the moment so there's societal things here as well but I think that fear thing and the lack of full reporting is important on that point I think it's really important in your submission or EIS submission you talk about the violence definition including written do you think it also needs to include online abuse? I think now because if you look at certainly the past 18 months teachers generally and our members amongst them who are part of protected groups whether that's disabled members but especially black members and the LGBT members have suffered a terrible increase in online abuse so I think that should be a part of it and are we recording that? Well as I've just said I think there's a culture that dissuades some of that recording so we're back to do we have the full picture we've got a lot of information but we would still say in some ways we don't quite have the full picture Carrie Lindsay next and then Cheryl's wanting to come in as well Mike referred to some of the things that we've done in Fife but I want to focus on Fife but we have put an app on the laptop of every member of staff so that whenever they go into a computer the app is there that they can then very quickly submit their evidence about their concerns and I think that society unfortunately though when you start to gather that information it becomes a problem as well as a solution that people will then look at that information, that data our local politicians will look at that information that data and we'll see it rising because we are encouraging and we want to get our full picture but sometimes that becomes a bit skewed so we have to be careful with how we use that data and the questions about the responses that we'll do as will many of my colleagues and I know that we had a session with all of the directors on looking at this topic and lots of information was gleaned about forums organised meetings that they have and with trade unions to try to make sure that we are encouraging staff to do that reporting and that we're making sure that we're using that to inform what we do next because it's not just about having the data that we need it for and we need to be able to respond locally to the data that we have because we know what resources we have we know what training, what support we can do and I think we're now starting to see that targeted approach so that if people have that data they can use it to target in some ways I think there is something about the feedback that Anne touched on that sometimes the feedback is quite difficult because some time might have elapsed because of a gathering of information going through various health and safety sometimes it's about finding time in the school and certainly we've done a lot of work with the head teachers to try to make sure that they make that an absolute priority to give that feedback to anybody who has been involved in any situation but that is a challenge and again we were gathering from a range of different local authorities the kind of numbers that they have and it is less than 1% I'm not saying that that's not a national it's just something that we've been looking at it's less than 1% in most of our settings apart from in the additional support needs so they're called a range of different things in different places whether they're special schools or departments of additional support but it is less than 1% for most of the other settings the recording of the violent and aggressive incidents how does that compare then with the data that we're hearing from others today about the 17% of people who are experiencing physical assault or the 62% of people who are experiencing I can't comment on that, I don't have that data I don't see where that evidence is coming from so that's the data that we have that kind of gets to the heart of the problem though doesn't it well all I can talk about is the data that I've been looking at through the directors that have provided that for me and the last point I just wanted to make was about our young people feeling safe in school on the back of an incident that had occurred that they went out to all of their secondary schools and did focus groups with all of them and over 90% of the young people said that they did feel safe in school now still there are some that are not saying that they feel safe but I think again it's to give it that perspective just as to what was said Cheryl, can I come to you on this topic and then I've got Ross Greer wanting to pop in another question I was just in the reporting I've got to go back to parents as well we're talking an awful lot about staff and I appreciate the reasons why but the other side of this coin is us as individual parents making that initial conversation to report that initial concern for parents they assume maybe wrongly so that when they have a conversation a phone call maybe an email or some sort of interaction with the school to raise a concern that it's noted down it's jotted down but the reality is for parents many don't know when a recordable incident again it's very murky waters as to what defines a recordable notifiable incident for many parents for example take the example of bullying behaviour challenging behaviour in schools so if you have a young person who is maybe directly impacted of the result of a behaviour of a young individual within a school setting or even sometimes it can fluctuate between the school and within the community and crosses both sides you have to be clear that parents are unsure of the process there is no clear way there's no clear process given to us or shown to parent councils or parents what's the right way forward so understand that teachers and staff are a wee bit confused about what the right process is because it's a postcode lottery but that's the same for parents too when we make an initial report it can get lost in translation and that little mohill suddenly becomes a mountain on the extreme side of that Useful comment there Ross Greer The point that Mike made about reporting not just the instance but making sure that what's motivated it has been accurately reported particularly where it involves a protected characteristic is really important I'd be really keen to hear from others on that because I'm aware that the Thai campaign for LGBT inclusive education made exactly this point that often violence against queer pupils and the motivating factor wasn't being recorded I'm personally not remotely convinced that we're actually recording violence against young women and girls where misogyny is the motivating factor so I'd be really keen to hear from others on that and whether you believe that there's an issue there as well but I'd also like to specifically ask Carrie about the health and wellbeing census which you mentioned because there's really valuable data in that I'd be interested to know how local authorities and schools have used that in the past to inform their policies and how that could be used this year given the highly politicised discussion that took place around the census this year and the very variable return rate that we got for it is it as usable now for this specific purpose as it was in the past given that I'm aware there's some schools that got a 95 per cent, 100 per cent response rate in other schools and entire local authorities who didn't actually take part at all can we actually use that data this year in the way that we've done in the past is there one person looking to respond to Ross that might be you'll be aware that there were some local authorities that weren't able to participate in the health and wellbeing census for a range of reasons and so therefore the national data that you could say was there was incomplete I think that you'll always have good responses from some places but if you're looking at it nationally then I think it responds to your question I think it does give you good information to start from I think local authorities will also do their own gathering of information like that which is why some of them perhaps have not brought into the health and wellbeing census because they were already doing some of their own so I think there is a wealth of data that people can use to be informing the policies and the practice in their own local authorities so again I think that yes a national and a local level should be used to inform policies and procedures Ross Bowell would like to respond to your questions as well I think that the point you raised about people from different backgrounds such as the LGBT people and young women is particularly important for young people as I was saying before although violence isn't necessarily an issue that's been brought to us as a concern of young people meaning that it's not an issue just that it hasn't been brought to us things like bullying of LGBT plus people and kind of homophobic and bifobicsriomtophobic behaviour has definitely been brought to us we have lots of policy on that such as there should be a dedicated fund for initiatives to educate, prevent and address LGBT bullying and discrimination in all schools and that passed with 74% showing that a lot of young people we also have women's working empowerment group that has been established because we feel that young women need support so it's kind of looking at doing that so I think that's definitely a big issue for young people is kind of the discrimination element of this as well in the interest of time actually I'm going to move on to some questions from Ruth Maguire now if that's okay Ruth thanks very much good morning everyone I appreciate all your experience and expertise and different perspectives I want to talk specifically about children for a wee while initially to talk about or to ask about, listen to you tell me about your perspectives on the factors and the things that increase incidents of violence or violent behaviour Nick Smyllian opening you touched on some of that can we look at it in a bit more depth and then I'd like to maybe chat about potential solutions Colin Morrison spoke about relationships and how having good relationships can be preventative and protective so maybe we could talk about that as well thank you I would just I was supposed to go back to something that was said earlier on in terms of the language and talking about violence and so on again I find that I'm not comfortable with that in terms of talking about children's behaviour but I absolutely accept the concerns around the issue of harm that's being caused this in terms of behaviour and incidents where people are hurt and things that occur like that children with additional support needs are overrepresented in that there's no doubt about that and people will know that from the papers and stuff that was submitted before so there's a fundamental issue about how we understand children's needs and how we support them in the context of school and the whole area of additional support for learning is one obviously there's been the Morgan review and so on but I think that needs to be looked at as well in terms of just how we support children so the issue in terms of the incidents that occur and that are causing a lot of concern and alarm I would say in the vast majority of incidents it's distressed behaviour it can be viewed through a prism or a lens of trauma I would say that we have more children presenting with neurodevelopmental needs the combination of those needs along with perhaps traumatic experiences or needs not being met out with the school etc results in situations and things in the school that are very difficult to manage and the age of children that are presenting with those needs has got younger in that I would say it's quite clear now that even as young as early learning in childcare we have children who come in to school who require a lot of support who just the environmental situation is very demanding for them and trying to make their needs pose these challenges I wouldn't talk about violent behaviour in those contexts but there are children who become distressed and cannot cope when they communicate and express their needs through behaviour which is difficult for staff to deal with I appreciate what you are saying and pardon my using the wrong term I suppose with the knowledge that children with additional support needs are a large cohort I think the thing that drives some of the discussion around this is not that it's the examples that people see of children and young people causing physical harm to other children and young people I appreciate that all violence is caused by distressed behaviour I think in those situations then obviously I would echo what the people have said about the need for relational approaches about the culture and ethos of schools about how we support young people to understand their emotional needs and how they cope in situations where there is conflict I think that they are probably because of the impact of the pandemic and key developmental experiences for some of our young people they've missed out on them and I think for some of our young people I would say for instance children who were impacted by lockdown around the time when they were coming to the words towards the end of school and then that supported transition for a lot of our children who would have had an extended transition into that new environment that we weren't able to do that and we have a whole cohort of young people particularly those with more complex additional support needs who have struggled to settle and find a secure base in secondary school despite a lot of work and you have to be in mind that even once lockdown etc was over there were still measures in place that meant what they could do around bringing children in from primary to secondary so that whole transition area I would include from nursery into primary school as well that the impact on those transition experiences was significant and I think we still have a legacy from that and I think we have young people who don't, you know, levels of social anxiety are significant and some young people aren't able to navigate the social environment of school in the way that perhaps they were before so perhaps there are more incidents in terms of conflict arising out of that but I think in terms of what we have and there's been a lot of discussion about data and how representative data is but locally in terms of my own authority we see that probably the biggest increase is in a younger age group it's not in secondary school and incidents which are more serious and where people are hurt are almost always complex situations of children and young people with significant additional support needs so in our specialist provision it's probably where there are the most number of incidents that would be recorded but they arise out of complex situations with children with very significant communication needs who can become very distressed and will express that through sometimes what you would term violent behaviour but I mean the intention is not there in my experience where staff are hurt is in that context a very complex additional support needs so I don't think you can separate that necessarily from the wider discussion Colin Morrison Thank you I think if you're looking for evidence an explanation about why the P1P2 child is picking up their desk and causing chaos through their distressed behaviour in the classroom then you just I would really encourage you to read the Public Health Scotland's work around our Covid-19 early years resilience and impact surveys so the fourth one is live now and that's big scale data that tells us what happened to the children that's just been referred to the children who went through lockdown the most vulnerable families who had now I know it's easy to have hindsight and we've got a Covid inquiry going on but the closure of early years the closure of community based services for the most vulnerable families is coming home to roost now I would say so what we have is these five and six year olds the Public Health Scotland evidence will well if you read that and it has a long tail so these behaviours have become established so there is a significant minority of five and six three four five six year olds who do not access green space or a garden at all in a week they're not outdoors at all now that's just a little thing that struck me this week when I was reading it because these are not excuses you know we're not saying that these children are behaving badly because they get away with it you know which I think other people might suggest to you these children are behaving in these ways because their lived experience has been so shut down trauma is about disconnection and disempowerment so we need to unpack what these things mean day to day and not just for the wee ones because it's harder to identify your empathy and your kindness to the 14-15 year olds but they've pretty much gone through the same experience so let's be kind to them all in terms of solutions there are solutions but there are also things that we're pulling away from under the feet of you know I'm thinking about when you're on a flight and adults are told fit your own oxygen mask first so for a children's organisation we would say look after the adults first because if you're not doing that you can't look after the children an event in Celsius in the University of Strathclyde yesterday about a wee breathers programme which is a trauma informed programme that supports education staff to manage the kind of behaviours that they're coping with day to day Barnado's published work two years ago before Covid possibly around the importance of supporting supervision for education professionals because it's pretty poor there's often very little in a lot of settings if you don't have time to be supported if you don't have time to grieve and lose things you know understand loss yourself if you don't understand if you can't unpack what it feels like to have a five-year-old pick up a chair and throw it at you then you're not able to adopt the kind of approaches we have good policy you know included engagement involved part two about school exclusions is good policy and we can't see an unpicking of that because of our anxiety or worry about what's happening to people so the reason that we have fewer exclusions in Scotland now is because we've all worked so hard before Covid to make that so so another you know one more thing I was throwing I've heard from four local authorities at least in the last week I've heard are closing their school libraries school libraries are a place of sanctuary they're a place where a kid who's struggling can go not stand in a corridor get a book, be read to in some schools that librarians take in their dog you know it's that kind of therapeutic space we can't say that we really want to deal with these things if we're not dealing with the reality of what we're taking away and what we're not providing the adults in school settings to be able to do their job properly I've got Bo that would like to come in I've got a list actually Ruth if you don't I can go through them on about the kind of not looking to turn to exclusions as a kind of method for this but looking at kind of preventative strategies I think there's four kind of key issues that play into this so youth work budget cuts, education reform co-operation of UNCRC and mental like the lack of availability of mental health support youth work is an essential kind of factor in this it provides so much support for so many young people not only to help them develop their skills but also to find a route out of poverty which could be causing this violence but also as mental health support and at building those relationships with people that mean you have somewhere to vent you have somewhere to kind of be I've had a really bad day can we talk about this rather than taking that out through your actions and obviously with the budget cuts those resources are less available to young people now which also leads into the kind of green space thing youth work can provide green spaces and things like that which allows children and young people to be in green spaces and kind of have that as a solution as well and with budget cuts to youth work that's becoming less and less available to children and young people second point on education reform I think a lot of the feeling in Scottish Youth Parliament is that the current education system isn't designed to kind of help children and young people reach their full potential and that can create quite a difficult environment in school for young people where they don't feel like their mental health is well supported by the education system and it's not designed to kind of look after them and make sure that they're learning in a safe way for their mental health and then lack of availability of mental health supports so obviously we know that there's a lack of mental health support available because it's a post-pandemic there's been a lot of demand for it there's two kind of strategies to resolving that so it can be preventative spend so spending in youth work as a preventative strategy but also spending in community based mental health services Scottish Youth Parliament did a project on that to look into the effectiveness of community based mental health services and we found that they were incredibly successful in helping people with their mental health but there needs to be an investment to expand the services and make sure that that funding is streamlined so that it's available for children and young people and finally incorporation of the UNCRC I think children and young people don't necessarily know where their rights are because they're not incorporated into law currently which then means that they're not able to be like right well what's my rights in this space where can I kind of go to help and what what areas there are and where like how they can kind of rely on the UNCRC and their right set out in that to make sure that they're being protected and looked after Thank you, thank you, board Dr Mowitt Abeddon Dawson points that have been made so far I think I think that building on relational approaches is very important in that context and I think approaches like nurture for example school counselling have got a great deal to offer in that respect I think one of the issues is we're highlighting that a lot of the issues are around additional support for learning and unfortunately that tends to be the very first thing that goes when there are budget cuts within local authorities that are often made redundant so I think finding some way of ring fencing that support for children would be very valuable I think we need to I think what Colin was talking about was empathetic approaches towards children but also towards staff and I think building in high quality initial teacher education on relational approaches and also career long professional learning in that regard is very important but also developing strong partnerships with parents where the people who know their children best so listening to parents as equal partners I would say as being an important aspect of this as well as the issues about trying to increase access to camps for example which is a very difficult thing just now so I think these are all things I would say would help to address the issue Thank you I've got a list here now I've got Anne and then Carrie and then Mike if we can keep things tight Thanks There has been a lot of discussion around relational approaches completely agreed relational approaches under PIN our approach to ASN I think what we have to realise is that in Scotland we have fantastic legislation we have fantastic policy on ASN but it's meeting the gap between policy and practice and from our perspective that comes down to resourcing this isn't a new thing we've been raising this for a number of years in fact the predecessor to this committee I think the education and skills committee back in 2017 raised the importance of resourcing we come back to it again there was the announcement of the Morgana view that this would shine a light on it however resourcing was missing from the Morgana view so we have to come back and face the fact that if we want good relational approaches in our classrooms then we have to pay for that we have to resource teachers we have to have enough teachers on the ground we have to have enough pupil support workers on the ground to support that and that means more investment the smaller class sizes a promise that was made back in 2007 in the manifesto commitment then that hasn't been realised we need reduced class contact time with more preparation for teachers to be given over to developing differentiation but the smaller class sizes would allow much more meaningful engagement with pupils with parents and with support agencies we also need more resourcing in the support agencies we've heard about the lists for CAMHS we know about difficulties with trying to access speech and language therapy report for our youngest learners with psychologists so there's a whole host of investment that needs to go into that and essentially we need to look at the whole recovery agenda because we haven't really there's been a drive to get back to normal to go back to looking at attainment statistics to top down accountability measures we need to go back and look meaningfully at recovery for teachers, for children and young people within our schools and that needs a package of resources some of the solutions that you're discussing there I know that some of the members will be picking into that later on Carrie, Carrie Lindsay Recently I listened to the lead from the violence reduction unit in Strathclyde Glasgow City of Council about the significant increase in antisocial behaviour in communities and I think that this isn't just a school problem and I think that we're kind of if we put it into that pocket then we're maybe not doing justice we're going to have the biggest impact so for me there is a big thing that I agree exactly with what Beau said about youth work, about mental health support and also about active schools about getting our young people engaged in groups, engaged in communities so that they aren't just at home and they aren't just on the computer and doing the work that's very isolated so I think that for me that's crucial that we have to think about that as a wider society I just also wanted to touch on just something that Colin was saying about the nursery into primary 1 and the S2 and S3 which is the transition that we're seeing into the secondary schools that it's not just about their behaviour it's about their attendance that what we're seeing is that families they didn't send children to school in the pandemic so they don't some of them haven't re-engaged with that value of schooling so we have a real problem with attendance and particularly with some school refusers where young people with the anxiety that they are displaying where they really can't attend and that interrupted learning means that it's really difficult to do a personal social education programme with a group of young people because they don't have time so how do you try to input some of the areas of work that you would be trying to do to get them to share, to get them to work together when they're only attending I visit schools every week and even in the nursery school settings where there should be groups of 20 children there are maybe six or seven children coming in that day they might be coming in over the course of the week but they're not coming in every day so there is something about how we shift that and we're certainly thinking that collectively as a society we have to try to make sure that people start to re-value education and attending school and that we think about how the whole society is that bit about the whole village isn't it it's not just the people that are in the schools that are going to make this difference Thanks Carrie, I've got Mike and if you keep it tight Mike, I've got Cheryl as well I'll try, I'll try I mean much if what's been said there are factors there that I think attempts are already made to address those so trauma induced approaches recognising the distress in young people recognising adverse childhood experiences the explosion really in additional support needs now recognising post-pandemic issues there's lots of good work already going on there but that work needs resource as has been touched on it needs the ability to do small group one to one work with a lot of those distress children and I'm not convinced that that resource is there but many of you do know that I've got 25 years experience in the classroom and there is another element and for me it was your teenage boys in the secondary school who would swear at the teacher as performance, as show-off you know in front of their pals now, yes you maybe need to dig down into why is that going on etc but there's more to it and there's other elements that I think we need to explore as well and that I suppose brings me round to one of the big issues that again has been touched on is I think there's a lack of independent research on what are the reasons driving this particularly post-pandemic so I think we would really like to see some more independent research on what are the key factors that are driving this but just to touch briefly on because the mention has been made of personal approaches etc and you can change your approach you can change the language of your approach but it doesn't necessarily change the behaviour so I've got evidence here about a new positive relationships policy that our members were suggesting meant that low level in discipline wasn't being recorded anymore there was more disruption restorative approaches were used but often with the same pupils day after day they didn't seem to improve behaviour and so on that's from February 2019 that's a school in February 2019 trying in their view to do the right thing but a lot of these approaches have been tried and in some situations in some schools they're not always working so I think that needs to be recognised as well but the broader things the Morgan review I've said this before to committee just seems to have been forgotten about almost I think that really needs to be refocused on about ASN and yes a number of points have been made that there are broader societal issues there the youth work, the library's one is absolutely vital I used to be a teacher of English so I have a big view on that and these things are absolutely vital as well to try and improve things more generally for young people thanks Cheryl, would you like to come in on this? It's just a response that I absolutely wholeheartedly agree about youth work that's something I'm very heavily involved in outwith my national parent role and absolutely recognise what you were saying about the strains of young people being able to obviously cope with the pressure of being in school all week and coming back to community to feel where they feel safe so they can obviously re-regulate their emotions but for me first and foremost it has to be a community-wide approach we're still talking school-centric here and the reality is that this is not just a school problem we have to be able to work with every other part health professionals we've talked about obviously educational psychologists what about obviously health visitors what about all the people who have got key responsibilities the transitional points of a child's journey from birth onwards I think there's a duty and responsibility again I have to agree with the lack of funding that's a huge issue on resources it's fundamentally and detrimentally impacting children, young people but also we've talked about education reform that is lifelong learning we're talking about now we're not no longer talking about 3 to 18 we're talking beyond the impact of what we're seeing now is going to continue on we see that spilling in not just inside school but outside school in our local communities it has to be a community-wide approach all of us need to be on the same page it can't be the sole responsibility of a school and I go back to what Anne's point about the robust policies and legislation absolutely there is and there was a lot of hope with Angela Morgan's review that would shine a light and effectively create this change I'm hearing the same thing from parents day and day out nothing has changed and for that we have to really put our money where our mouth is and be able to solidify that we can present workable and meaningful recommendations that we can take on forward but for me funding has got to be the biggest barrier to success Thanks Cheryl and just make comment on some of the discussion there about the Morgan review on 8 June 2022 we did minute that it was our intention to do an inquiry into additional support needs and we are scoping in two weeks today we're having our initial discussion at committee around that and what that might look like so it is very much on our radar as well and feeding it, carrying on with that theme of additional support needs can I bring in Stephanie Callaghan as well now please Thanks very much, convener today it's been really interesting a really wide-ranging conversation as well I want to talk a little bit about bullying as well within schools so when we have children harm another children too and additional support needs yes quite often their behaviours are an issue but very very often as well they're on the receiving end also so the Morgan report's already been mentioned and I think all the strategies for additional support needs to be known that those work for all children and young people so that's certainly something going down the line and there's been a lot said so a couple of me points that I'm interested in you don't all have to answer all of them I'm interested in as talking about trauma and Covid and poverty and mental health and are there wider approaches should we be looking to teach strategies to all of our young people to actually be able to cope better with the challenges now secondly as well I'm interested in accountability too because accountability is part of it absolutely it's about relationships and it's about supporting young people whose behaviour isn't what we'd be hoping for it to be but also sometimes as that permission in getting away with it not being held accountable which isn't good too and thirdly as well infrastructure our school's just really really big I'm a little interested in hearing from Joan, Nick, Colin, Cheryl or some other kids, thanks Joan, would you like to come in first is that possible or is that too much of a hot seat? No, could you just remind me quickly of your first point please that was about all children being informed about trauma informed Yes, so about a wider approach that actually teaches our young people strategies for their own wellbeing, mental health to deal with anxiety etc I would totally agree with that because I think developing understanding in children and in adults is a starting point for any positive change so I think that is a really positive suggestion I think there is work already going on in schools there's work around resilience for example there's a lot of good work going on in social and emotional learning programmes I do take their point about absence in schools which is a particular problem at the moment in terms of accountability it depends on what we mean by accountability in my view accountability is being able to take responsibility for your own actions that and I think the best way to do that is actually through discussion through listening to children through providing restorative approaches the opportunity for that accountability doesn't necessarily mean sanctions and sanctions don't we know from long experience that sanctions don't necessarily work if you look at the approach down south for example where there's a lot of emphasis in zero tolerance approaches their exclusion rates are soaring we don't want to go in that direction I think there is to answer the point about the research and restorative practice and other things like that there is quite a significant body of research on this but that doesn't mean to say that in a specific context in a specific situation that it won't fall down and I would agree that there is need for further research just to pick up on that point and I think in terms of infrastructure I have long argued in my own research about the need to build an infrastructure of support around communities, around schools around families, around children and what I mean by that is what's already been rooted by many people around the table all the different you know as I think as I said in my own paper this problem can't be solved by schools alone you need to have a multidisciplinary lens on it and that means you need to look at all of the support services home link workers community workers work with parents all the different supports communities and families and children they all need to work in harmony with each other and I know that's a very very big ask but I think just having that holistic view on the lives of children and families is absolutely crucial if you're going to make any progress at all and I think that probably means that every level of the system from the local level right up to government level these bodies need to be talking to each other housing policy for example fiscal policy all of these things come into the next and particularly around poverty which I think but also recognising that these things are not separate mental health, poverty school behaviour they're all so closely linked so you can't see them as just you can't put them into silos they have to be looked at holistically I hope that answers your question from my perspective Do you want to come in next Colin? That's the wrong mic that's right mic one now there you go Just following up on something that Anne said earlier just coming out of Covid we children's parliament pushed really hard for this idea of our recovery curriculum and it's in the paper that was submitted earlier and we failed in that so what happened was that we jumped straight back into some diet notions of lost learning focus on attainment and what we saw was many many adults in schools trying to develop this recovery based approach talk about resilience bring children back to learning focus on health and wellbeing whilst the pressures were coming down politically and organisationally to address literacy and numeracy testing that was a huge mistake when we looked at all the emergency measures during Covid and I'm not doing that what I'm talking about is a specific a real decision that was made to about how we would articulate our response educationally post pandemic and that did not do children and young people any service, never mind the adults in the environment in terms of what schools do a lot of good schools are focused on ideas of resilience and building confidence things like speech and language therapy you know I'm a huge fan if speech and language therapy is a foundation for many of the issues that particularly boys bring in terms of behaviour it links well to nurture based approaches but it's a very effective tool to give children language and space to think about their emotional wellbeing and to be able to talk about themselves and what they feel so there's lots of these things that we know we do they do actually already work bullying we've done lots of work on bullying pre Covid which I'll send you so children have solutions for bullying and they know that the absolute focus has to be on prevention because once you're in the middle of a situation it's very difficult to manage we know that but there are rights based approaches to these things accountability is a really interesting one you can't have accountability unless you have a basis of understanding for that so for us we talk about rights based relationships being based on empathy, kindness, trust and the core idea of human dignity and if you embed these things in the way that you work with children from early years through primary and secondary then if they behave in ways that are unacceptable or targeting another person then they have a foundation to be able to reflect on that was that kind, was that empathic are you undermining trust what does human dignity feel like to you why are you behaving like that what have your experiences been that teaches you that behaving like that is acceptable so you can unpack it and address it there's absolutely a need to address bullying is the thing that comes up mostly when we speak to children about human dignity and what undermines it it is endemic and it's problematic and it's made worse through social media so we put all over the place there but can I just make one last plea I don't know if any of you will have a long enough memory to remember in 1995 Calusgill Benkian commission on children and violence published 1995 Kathleen Marshall, who was our first children's commissioner was one of the commissioners and that work, it's still available online looked at the extent of the violence experienced by children and we know that children are more likely to experience violence and perpetuate it and they're more likely to experience violence perpetuate against them by adults not by other children so they looked at the experience of violence that children have and they also looked at what we can do about that so some of it would be children on children violence but most of it isn't and what they were looking for is something that I think we should maybe this Parliament passed the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Incorporation Bill thank you for that so how do you then step up and think in a bigger way about we talk about having an alcohol free childhood a tobacco free childhood and what could we do to explore actual experiences it goes back to data as well what could we do to understand the experiences children have and what are the strategies to make sure that whether they're at home, in school or in the community their childhood up to the age of 18 is experienced as a nonviolent childhood that for me seems to be the big question in a way that we could try and pull all this together I hear the concerns but we need some kind of big idea to have better understanding thanks Colin Bo, would you like to contribute next? yeah, thank you it's just to kind of echo what's been said by Dr Merritt and Colin I think there should be a restorative approach this rather than a kind of punishment type approach and I think it's essential that all these discussions should be framed in the context of children young people's rights I've recently been to Geneva to hold Scottish and UK Government to account on their obligations under the UNCRC and the UN committee agreed with me and the other children and young people that I went with that a lot more needs to be done to ensure children and young people have access to their rights I think a key article to UNCRC that plays into this is article 12 so when you're talking about those restorative approaches children and young people need to be at the heart of designing them and their voices need to be listened to within that process and work alongside other decision makers to create those restorative approaches to tackle this kind of issue thanks, Bo I'm very aware of time so I won't say too much I agree very much of what Joan, Colin and Bo have said they've covered most of probably what I would want to say I'll just make a couple of points quickly in terms of the original question universal supports in school absolutely are essential we would always want to do things in a sort of staged way from universal targeted to intensive and we need the supports at all those levels so in terms of teaching all children about respect and emotional regulation absolutely we need to be doing that Carrie made the point about the impact of attendance on that kind of work and that is disrupting what we would want to do for some young people the other couple of points that we made was one just in terms of impact of the pandemic or perceived increase or agreed increase in terms of issues around behaviour and violent incidents I think one of the things we need to be really aware of is the impact of the pandemic and the restrictions on young people's sense of connectedness their sense of connectedness with school and with their communities and if they don't have that affiliation with school then they're much more likely to get involved in behaviours that we would see as disruptive or concerning so I think there has been an impact on that connectedness and that's something that we really need to continue to support and work on and I absolutely agree with the points about holistic support and community based support and that schools can't deal with these issues on their own and the finalist point I wanted to make was just in terms of what we've said about resources for ASN and the exponential increase in additional support needs I would just quickly illustrate that point by some of the data that we have in terms of ASPEP which is that back in 2007 the ratio of educational psychologists to children with identified additional support needs was 85.8 children per psychologist this is based on the Scottish Government's data around additional support needs in 2022 we have 659.7 children per individual psychologist so there is that exponential increase in reduction in resources I think that that number on record I've got Cary, Stephanie Callan directed the question to you initially, would you like to add anything further or Cheryl, sorry that was me because Cheryl wants to come in on this so that's fine, apologies Cary Cheryl I have That's okay thank you so much Break down what you spoke about first and foremost bullying for me is massive it's a majority of parents that's one of the predominant concerns about bullying behaviour on their child-young person but one of the positives I will say is there's a lot of work nationally being done on reviewing the national anti-bullying strategy there's currently a respect for all working group looking at that particular thing and how that's recorded, reported and breaking down some of the things that they've been spoken about today I think that respect to me the national anti-bullying charity has been at forefront for supporting parents and carers children and young people national pay reformer there's a lot of work alongside them and I'm not sure that the guidance is there I think the reality is though for parents there's a misconception about where these policies sit at a very individual school level because you have a national policy it guides and drives all this robust recommendations and what you should be doing with the reality down to implementation as each individual school creates its own individual policy taking reform the national to the local the local to individual and there's a lot of variation where parents don't know where these policies exist because they don't all make it clear as a bullying policy it can be backed into what we're discussing today about behaviour and relationships I think that there's another serious concern around the infrastructure you talk about capacity when you look at a primary school and our same primary school the environments are set up to be a nurturing safe welcoming environment very heavily focused on the nurturing awards and the flags and stuff for the ambassadors for nurture you get to a secondary school at the moment and the reality is they're not built to support all these lovely fantastic initiatives they're built to teach and school buildings are limited in what they can actually be able to deliver specialist staff need to be funded to be trained to be resourced to be able to support these children and young people going forward and the reality is it's great that we can do all these fantastic initiatives at a lower level but where we struggle is that transition to secondary school because then it becomes a whole different ballgames you're focusing on teaching and learning the problem you've now also got is the fact that school councillors and secondary schools which is fantastic but the reality is they can only see a very limited number of young children and if you've got a secondary school with, say, 1,600 pupils and that councillor can only see maybe 10 or 15 children in a week sorry that's okay just to go back to something else that you said there so you know we have the restorative practice we have the relationships and things but bullying is still happening so do parents feel there's enough focus then on what we can do to protect and support young people who are being bullied cos what I do here quite a bit especially from your diverse groups is that things are changed around the child that is being bullied while the bully kind of goes on through normal schooling they're maybe not going to classes or they're not going to PE or they're not going to extra-curricular activities and I'm just wondering if that's what you're hearing to it's a very, I'm going to say it's a postcode lottery again, it's back down to interpretation and availability funding, resourcing, staffing I mean for parents if you report an incident of bullying as I said she becomes that behind a hidden wall cos you don't know what the process is and sometimes you feel that maybe an incident hasn't been sort of dealt with in a timely manner and the perception of the parent that's not to be detrimental to the impact of the school who have a process to go through but it's back down to what we've talked about earlier about the recording so you are quite right there is a lot of focus on non-exclusions of finding the sort of practice we have not to include a child but the reality is in certain areas there's not enough space or capacity not just in the school building having to use external provision like you spoke about both about youth and family so youth work so in South Lanarkshire where I come from we have youth family community learning and they do an awful lot of supportive work under education resources so that those children get support and young people get support maybe that's not taken away from just being inside the school I think the reality is hindsight is a wonderful thing absolutely Colin said is absolutely spot on if we could go back in time and know now to try and change what we did then we might be looking at a different future but the reality for parents is that they just want their children to be safe and yes bullying is absolutely one of the biggest barriers the biggest concerns that parents deal with on a daily and I'm going to say on a daily basis and that has come out through our initial pathway through our survey runs for another week but our survey and behaviour has shown that bullying is absolutely one of the biggest factors towards us I've got Mike Corr but again I'm going to give you can keep it tight because I've got my eye on the clock now and I've got some other topics we want to pick at OK try my best on bullying I think there are worries there particularly about the reporting and there's an Education Scotland report that has come out that highlights that you know the clonkiness of the CMIS system and again differences in different places so I think that's an issue that needs to be looked at but the accountability part I think is vital and absolutely the vast majority of pupils of young people who are dealt with via restorative justice type approach do take responsibility for their actions and that approach works with them but in too many places there is a vacuum above that and there's a lack of support from senior managers the issues often turned back on the teacher oh well your lesson wasn't entertaining enough to engage this pupil who swore at you so you know that approach and that's where you don't get the responsibility taken pupils and again I would say typically more in the secondary sector than the primary who give this smirking apology sorry for swearing at you now what does that restore how does that restore any trust how does that restore any dignity for the teacher and for everyone involved it doesn't so that for us is a crucial issue and I know we've had a lot of people talk about restorative approaches and absolutely they do work up to a point but they're clearly not working wholly or we wouldn't be here today and just briefly last line out there's some touching on the UNCRC which again is important I think we'd like to to see that getting incorporated soon but I think it's important to see the UNCRC as not a pick and mix yes article 12 is important about listening to pupils voice but so are other articles about article 3 the best interests of children more generally about the right to education articles 28 and 29 of children more generally so let us not forget the 29 others in the class when the one pupil has you know been violent or abusive or threatening I think that's important to point to it as well thank you Mike Doctor Mawrth if you can come briefly because I want to pick up on this very briefly okay thank you I'm going to talk about my own experience as a deput head at Frailworth and Academy I became very despondent at the same pupils standing outside of my door day after day after day in the matter what I did what I found was that the only thing that made a difference for those pupils was actually investing time and effort and care and love in them I developed support groups for those children where for the most of the year those children attended for a week you know for an hour a week and I trained staff within the school to work with those children and it was that intense work with them over a long period of time that actually began to show change in some of the sorts of children that you're talking about you know where the problems have become very intractable so I think it's time, effort, love care that needs to be invested and that is a resource issue all right thank you Doctor Mawrth and in that theme of classroom, can I come to Stephen Kerr now please yeah, so actually I was quite relieved to hear what you had to say just now Mike because I was beginning to wonder where the pattern of discussion was going because I would like specifically to refer to issues related to classroom management and classroom sizes and teacher training but I'd like to begin with some words of a whistleblower reported in the Herald a couple of months ago who was talking about the experience they were having now I've got a suspicion that this relates to one specific school so let me make the general comments that are reported in this news article the quotes of the teacher I've worked in schools in difficult places and it was not like this other places were run with precision and you could have great relationships with the kids because the place was so well structured and they felt safe the whistleblower then goes on to talk about something called pivotal behaviour method which apparently is a system based on restorative justice the teacher then goes on we can't pick apart what actually is policy such as the citywide no exclusions policy and what is some dogmatic theory that management seem to be following senior management follow the script in terms of language using very euphemistic language so that even when you're having an informal conversation with a senior manager you can't use terms like consequences when you speak to them it's not like you're having a normal human interaction and I think for the kids it's very confusing you always work with children from a place of kindness and empathy but you're very clear with what you expect them to do and give them clear boundaries and that is kind of backed up by Tom Bennett's evidence that he sent us he talks about creating an environment in a school, in a classroom where violence is it is set as a culture that violence is unacceptable and where students incirk instant penalties for doing so where suspensions and exclusion are used as last resorts in the worst scenarios anything less than this fails to keep children and staff safe which is the fundamental responsibility of the school so what I'd like to hear is some comment on both the whistleblower's comments I think he might this person might be a member of your union actually judging by the way it was written and this general approach of setting clear boundaries and further being known sanctions agreed perhaps indeed with the pupils but known sanctions that are applied including exclusions in the worst cases and in the last resort that those individuals are not allowed to disrupt the 29 others or perhaps physically or verbally continue to abuse who are you addressing this to to start with me? I think I know what Mike might say start with me I'll just a couple of things then the pivotal approach comes originally from the book by Paul Dicks when the adults change everything changes and the problem with that has been seen as a one size fits all approach imposed from above in a number of schools and it's interesting that Paul Dicks himself in the book says some interesting things that seem to have been forgotten or maybe never even part of the training in some local authorities and some head teachers which is children who misbehave need to experience an immediate proportionate consequence he talks about behaviour management policies must be developed and owned collaboratively across a school staff those that are imposed from above are doomed to fail so we see the adoption of this pivotal approach not being a problem in itself because at its heart are restorative approaches that can work but a misinterpretation a misapplication of it and as I touched on earlier a failure to give teachers the skills and the support to go to the next place so I've tried I've had my 10 restorative conversations what do I do next what support am I getting from above and cover your ears if you're easily offended because I've got a report from a deputy head teacher in a Scottish school that reported to me last week probably happened two weeks ago said to a probationer teacher I get told to fuck off all the time now if that's the support that's been given to probationer teachers no wonder a lot of our teachers are feeling that they don't know where to go next or leaving the profession so I'm happy to hear the responses I understand that that was obviously just as a warning that was obviously quoting and you did make reference but if we could maybe curtail the language I think that I'm curious thanks very much absolutely we think that it should be the whole school approach to behaviour management and that would be involving everyone in the development of the behaviour policies so you would want that empowered approach to develop those policies and then a common understanding of how they would apply when it would be appropriate for particular sanctions to be used in certain circumstances and very much part of the GERFEC approach you know this would be part of discussions that would be part of a child's planning process discussions that would also and I think we can't forget the health and safety so we've spoken about, Mike referenced the UNCRC and the rights of the other children in the class the rights indeed of the person a child or young person who is displaying the distressed or violent behaviour but we also can't forget the health and safety rights of the teacher which are enshrined in legislation and this is a health and safety matter as well so there's a number of competing rights there that have to be balanced and there are circumstances that we have to embed within our behaviour management policies that ensures that everyone in the school is safe and that then needs the support and the buy-in of everyone right the way through the school approach so I think that that level of understanding is very important the children and young people need to know that level of understanding of the policies and practices and when there may be consequences and you know we have in our policies for members set out very clearly what we would expect to do happening in certain circumstances and the supports that should be available for them and I think that's that common level of understanding that needs to be applied across the school system you mentioned retention of staff and the importance of that our recent survey we asked the question how many teachers intended to be in the profession five years from now only 51% said yes and a large reporter I think that it was a bit 38% from memory referred to the impact of distressed and violent behaviour on that a number of them I have to say head teachers and deputy head teachers in that mix so the yes doesn't have a no exclusions policy some of the council seem to have a no exclusions at all cost policy you don't support that we have very clearly said in our policy that there are circumstances when pupils should be excluded and the reason behind that is partly because there needs to be risk assessments so there's health and safety implications there that have to be undertaken in order that everyone can remain safe within there should be something next there needs to be a clear understanding of the risk that is presented the management of that risk and what steps need to be in place moving forward to keep everybody safe I've got other folks looking to come in Stephen, if that's the case if you don't mind on this Bo Johnson then I've got Colin as well I think that approach should be avoided if possible but if you are going to do that I think it should be consulted on with children and young people and designed with children and young people to ensure that their rights are kind of at the forefront of it because the problem with exclusion is like breaching rights within the UNCRC that Mike was mentioning earlier of 28 and 29 and it shouldn't be a situation where our most vulnerable young people are having their rights breached because of that so it needs to be something that's designed with children and young people if that is going to happen so if they're excluded they need to be excluded to something else there needs to be a referral to somewhere else there needs to be support in place for it and that decision should ultimately be designed with children and young people and that should be meaningfully listened to so getting groups of children and young people perhaps with lived experience of this speaking with them and saying what would have helped you in that situation actually having those discussions with children and young people and designing the framework for this is kind of how you put children and young people but you're not against consequences you're not against consequences for this sort of behaviour that we're discussing no Colin, can I come over to yourself now? All behaviour has consequences there are antecedents, there's a behaviour and there's a consequence and consequences can be good or bad they can reinforce or they can change so there's nothing wrong with the word consequences but it's our job as adults to intervene at the point at the antecedent like what can we do to avert this behaviour to intercede to work with the actual behaviour when it's happening and then to look at the consequences what are the positive consequences that we can enact so for example if this just gets lots of attention and there's nothing done to change it then that behaviour will continue I'm five years old undistressed I'm going to get lots of attention here obviously the consequences we understand a basic psychology forgive me if I get this wrong punishment does not change behaviour that's well established so we just need to look at Pullman go and visit Pullman and speak to the young men there and you will find that something like 80-90% left school functionally illiterate and they were excluded by P7 these are the consequences of school exclusion and the system in Scotland please let's not lose everything we've gained so the past 10-20 years we have worked really hard on exclusions and it does not mean that children don't get the support or staff don't get the support it's hard to deal with these kind of anonymised cases we just take them at face value and it sounds like that person is purely supported and management is not behaving very effectively it sounds like but it's very extreme Colin to say that we should have a no we shouldn't have any exclusions sorry that was my final point I think Colin wants to come in on that point the final point was there's no such thing as no exclusions at all cost policy there's no such thing there never has been you're using that language so I'm just correcting it but I'm saying this is how the teachers feel you might contest me but I'm telling you something that's factual there's no such thing as a no exclusions at all cost policy there are children and young people who are excluded from school which would mean being moved to another setting but it's very rare but it does happen so there is no exclusions policy there are years of work since whatever behaviour better learning that Joan knows well that we have worked on our rates of exclusion and responses to behaviour so thanks I've got Joan wanted to come in and then Nick as well I just wanted to say that I mean I agree with the points that you were making but the need for a very consultative approach and a consistent approach to discipline within schools putting relationships to the fore but I think it's there is a danger if you begin to go far too far down the route of Tom Bennett etc where you begin to head towards zero tolerance policies and there has been research that has shown that these policies just do not work in the long term and I also think that the word consistent needs to be taken needs to be considered very carefully because to me you need to be consistent in your approach to treating every child as an individual and taking account of their individual circumstances that does not mean going light on them but if you have an approach where consistent means that every time something happens X happens, Y happens that is not actually in the best interest of children or their rights so I think you need to have an approach that everyone understands where there has been agreement children are consulted about parents are consulted children are consulted there is agreement within the school everyone understands that policy but that policy is based on relationships on trust and empathy on care and yes I agree I agree with the point that Colin made about consequences there are always consequences for behaviour I wouldn't I think if you do go down the options they have to be appropriate and they have to be considered very very carefully in terms of the circumstances of the child and taking full account of the context I would never say that there is no circumstance where an exclusion would not be appropriate but I think in the past we've been far too quick to go to exclusions and I know as a deput head I was under a lot of pressure to go to children and sometimes I had to work very very hard to explain to a member of staff why I didn't think it was the appropriate thing to do in a particular context so I would not do exclusion out but I think it has to be it has to be truly the very very last result not the first thing that you go to and on this before I bring you in Nick I want Bo just wants to clarify something that she responded to there just for the record sorry I just want to say I think I slightly misunderstood the final question that you asked me but I just want to say that my viewpoint on consequences aligns with that of Dr Marmot so Dr Morrison Dr Marmot and Morrison I think both actually Nick Smiley please sorry about that I'll just make a couple of points again I agree very much with what Dr Morrison and Dr Marmot have said I just want to make the point in terms that you know there's been quite a bit of criticism of restorative approaches and I think it's important to say that structure and boundaries and limits are very much part of a restorative approach and if there are issues about how it's being implemented or operationalised within a school that may give a rise to some of the things that you've talked about but it does not mean the approach of itself is problematic it's about how it's properly implemented and there needs to be very clear structure and that's absolutely a part of nurturing approaches and part of restorative approaches and I think it's important to make that point because it can perhaps be seductive to think about sanctions and exclusions as being a solution when we know very much that they're not that exclusions as has been said already that there isn't a zero policy you know a no exclusions policy there are situations where it's an action that is necessary but I think we always know that it doesn't actually move us forward in terms of the needs of that individual child and the last point I want to make was just that there was mention about exclusion to somewhere else I think we have to be really careful the English systems we mentioned a couple of times in terms of zero tolerance and they have these pupil referral units pupils are excluded from school and referred to pupil referral units I think what we know about the sort of outcomes there for those young people is very very poor and those are not educational environments that are particularly supportive we do need to have quality education environments and we need to have options for children who we've got to a point where trying to support them within a mainstream environment has become too challenging but the idea of just excluding children to offsite units is not a solution I do have two more people considering coming in here keeping an eye on the clock so can I come to Ann very very brief and then Carrie please as well just very briefly I just want to say that you know I think it's unfortunate that really we're talking about exclusion which is really a harsh alternative because we're in a situation where we've got a lack of resources if we had appropriate resourcing we could have early intervention strategies that would address these issues hopefully and not have us having to consider anything of this nature thank you that might be a good segue into the final bit there so Carrie over to you just about the exclusions that in schools we use an exclusion to take a bit of time to then reintegrate a child with support back into the school setting so at no point or in my whole career I think maybe one child that we've had to move to another setting that it would not be an exclusion where a child's not returned to a school and I think there is a bit of misunderstanding that people think that an exclusion means that that child will not return to that school that is not the case the policy is around supporting the school the family, the child for them to come back into the school with appropriate support and my last point was just to say that I do think we need to be really careful about individual comments about things that happen in individual schools because that creates a false reality of what is actually happening so that's wonderful that's something we didn't get to discuss today the role of social media in terms of amplifying this which I know we're not going to perhaps have time to give that justice can I come to Willie Rennie for some questions now as well please I think we started off this session with quite a bit of anxiety that some people felt we were going to throw out some of the significant improvements that have been made over the last well certainly since I was at school which was a wee while ago and I'm no doubt the system is much better but there is also no doubt whether the numbers have gone up or down or whatever raised by parents and young people and teachers and staff about what happens in response to the incidents and what I'm really wanting to focus on in this next session is the solutions now many of you have come up with some really cracking solutions already we've talked about many of them about libraries and green spaces and youth work and mental health support educational psychologists issues around resourcing in the morgan review all of those things I suppose my concern about those is that some of them are long term and that doesn't make them bad but they are long term and that doesn't help the teacher that I spoke to last week who showed me the bruises on her legs and the hair that had been pulled out from her head and so it's whether we're missing something now about how we respond to these individual incidents when it's got, as Anne says to this crisis point I hear repeatedly that teachers are just fed up with doing the endless repetitive, restorative discussion that goes nowhere and what I want to really understand is it a failure of the application of the restorative approach effectively or a misunderstanding of that policy or is there something else we need to do in this situation we're not generalising here we're not saying this is all the cases I am not for going back to the old punishment ways of the past I reject that I'm a restorative approach supporter but it's clearly a problem and I want to focus on that bit of how do we deal with the instance now where the teachers feel just helpless and I want to understand what perhaps we're not getting quite right and how we can help those members of staff deal with this problem does that who would like to anyone want to kick off someone will put that on for you if you wait maybe because we've got too many mics on Dr. Mowatt if you could that's fine Dr. Mowatt's is still on your hands on now over to you sorry about that I think the word I would use Willie is time teachers need time to be able to develop these relational approaches our Edinburgh local association did a survey of staff members recently and I was reading it last night in preparation for this session and it was discussing restorative practices and one comment jumped out at me which was I can't really have a restorative practice a restorative discussion with the pupil because I've got 26 other children in the class waiting to be taught so it was almost as if this was being sedged into a quick discussion outside the classroom door and if we are really going to invest in these practices we need to give our teachers time, the training the space and I come back to we need to look at the resourcing issues we need to have smaller class sizes so that you can develop those approaches we've suggested 20 as being a good, you know, as our target for that we are, you know, we're sitting at some of the highest in the OECD countries and we've both had commitment to reduce class size and we haven't seen that happening over the last I'm trying to do the maths 16 years since that was promised so we absolutely need that critical investment in education and core education funding not additionality, not pay funding that can't be relied upon in years to come we need core investment in education smaller class sizes reduce class contact time is a manifesto commitment at the minute we've yet to see that brought to fruition even to bring that down to 21 and a half hours so that teachers have more time that's not happened and we're sitting at the third highest class contact rate in the whole of the OECD so those are things that is a government commitment and yet we have not seen that given over to teachers' marking and preparation we definitely need more investment in ASN specialists specialist teachers but also in pupils support workers I referenced the statistics that came from primary colleagues about how that would impact on their wellbeing but also on the reduction of their workload at the beginning of this session it's huge that could have a significant impact if we had more pupils support workers when we go to we can't look at relational approaches without looking at the multidisciplinary context and to do that we need investment in the other support agencies and health and social work to support education we've discussed the societal impact of this so we need that investment across the board Mike looking to come in Willie Yeah just briefly I think that particularly in the secondary sector is more of a challenge sometimes to embed the restorative conversation approach when you've literally got six or seven classes one after the other and they're off before you can have the chat so there's an issue there about time but again those restorative approaches do still work for the majority of pupils what you're touching on again seems to be what's beyond that what's the next step before we get to exclusion and that for us is better, more prompt support from senior management teams in schools now that might be that they don't currently have the time to properly devote to taking a pupil out and working with them one to one because they've got so many other things to do but that's crucial again we've got evidence over and over again where the next step up in many schools is a referral system where the teacher says I've tried all I can and I've tried all my restorative approaches and I'm just not getting anywhere and they refer it up to typically a deput head in the school but the number of examples of feedback we get from members who say I've put in 10 referrals in the past month and I've not had any response to them so again there's clearly some kind of time issue there for those senior managers to deal with the problem and support those teachers in the classroom could we come to carry the ability? I've got Cheryl once again as well Willie, Cheryl and Carrie then Thank you for that for me the solution has got to be about strengthening the guidance for parents and support for parents because I know we're discussing again back into the classroom environment but that's one element that we have to come home and obviously we have to find ways to support parents to support their child it can't always be the sole responsibility of a classroom teacher or a senior manager within a school to give you an example within our local the local area that I'm from in South Lanarkshire we had during just probably post Covid we were a lot of issue with this sort of there's not a gang culture it was a territorialism back to that reality the kids had nowhere to go our area formed a community safety meeting and that was a complete whole approach whole based approach with your headteachers your police, your fire service your housing, your community members and obviously youth organisation so it was a collaborative approach to try and resolve early intervention and prevention so that it wasn't just based solely on the school having the sole responsibility because we have to realise that it's not just responsibility of one individual it was taking that wider collaborative approach and it made such a difference in early intervention because all the key people who were impacted and had the opportunity to be able to deliver a much needed provision of service and those preventive models were around that table having that conversation one of the other things I was going to say for parents in particular I have to reiterate that there's not a one stop shop for information most parents are letting the information from the school so as a parent we have to at least be able to be signposted to where we can go to for support and I think that's one of the biggest issues there's a lot of judgement made that its appearance fall on the parent's responsibility and the reality is that parent could have been shouting from the rooftops about trying to get their child or young person the right advocacy or support but the reality is if they're not guided themselves and they're only getting information from particular areas there needs to be a clearer signposting of communication and transparency so it's a parent where they can go I've got Bo wanting to can I bring Bo in first and then we can come to Carrie sorry just very quickly I think if you speak it I think it has to kind of be a two tactic approach so I think you need to think about the long term so things like youth work funding and things like that but you also have to look at what's not working with restorative approaches and I think part of that is bringing in as I've said before bringing in young people to the conversation particularly those with experience of it and asking them right what is going on here how can we kind of make a system that works for you that's not letting you get away with things that are maybe impacting your own right to education but also ensuring that teachers are protected so I think children and young people need to be at the heart of those conversations and also I think Dr Marmot mentioned earlier about making sure that children and young people are informed on the process of that as well my school has been particularly good at making sure you know under what circumstances different approaches will be taken so I think it's really important that children and young people also are aware of the approach taken by teachers in the school thank you and Carrie Lindsay now thanks I think it's important to say that individual circumstances are quite unique often I think you might refer to the fact that restorative approaches will work for the majority so we are talking about the bespoke approaches that we need for individual youngsters and sometimes they don't respond to a kind of hierarchical if you do this this happens if you do this this happens so it is very much and I suppose that's where sometimes it's difficult for people to understand that because they think well this is the route for person A but person B didn't respond to any of that so there's a slightly different approach and for me that's where we do need to get better at working with our partners and thinking about alternative approaches to support that young person if the things that you're trying haven't worked now I was a head teacher for a number of years and I know that there were some circumstances where you tried 20 30 different things and the 31st thing was the thing that worked and you really just have to stick at it and I know that that maybe doesn't give people the confidence that you would want to say that actually if you do this that will work because that's not the reality and all schools are different they have different leaders they have different make-ups of staff they have you know sometimes really enthusiastic staff sometimes staff that you're dragging screaming and kicking that's the reality and I think that's why we have to look at every individual situation and find solutions that work for them but there are some things that we can do on that universal basis to make sure we've got that grounding for everybody and then the small resource that we do have because I wouldn't argue that we wouldn't need more resource of course but there's a small resource that we do have then we can actually use that in a targeted way to support wherever that's trombon form practice that we're doing the restorative approaches that we're doing the de-escalation that all of that is there in all of our schools as a foundation of basis and then we think about that multi-agency wraparound for those that are not being supported with that and maybe just the last thing is about in secondary schools in particular where guidance staff are a key to be able to support some of that and making sure that they have the capacity to be able to support the young people because they do move around a lot as Mike says that you've only got them for 50 minutes or so and it's a very different scenario in a primary school it's much easier to do that kind of relationship based practice and you could make time for it not saying it's easy but you can do it in a secondary school that's quite different so the guidance are really important Joan Mowatt I total agree with what you've just said and also the point that Anne was making about the difficulties around time in terms of restorative work it's certainly in terms of seeing it as part of a much larger range of approaches that are used it's just part of it I think it's difficult to actually answer your question because I just don't think we know the answer I think there's a need for reset you know if we're saying that restorative practice is a way ahead then we need to understand why in certain circumstances it's not working as well as it should so therefore I think there's a need for research we tend to be overwhelmed in surveys the qualities of approaches are much better at getting it by your things so I would recommend that we should be looking at that there's certainly been research done in the past by people at Joanne McOskie Professor McOskie at Edinburgh University but I think there's a need for that and I think we're also talking about the context of individual schools we know that for example in schools of multiple deprivation there can be very many more social issues that staff are having to deal with in the school which may lead to them having difficulty finding time to deal with the number of things that could come across the desk and I think there's a need to understand this particular context of schools in multiple deprivation and the issues that they face in terms of behaviour and how we can develop policies that best support those schools okay, thank you it's just wondering if Nick I just wanted to make a quick point again in terms of what Willie said about that teacher, staff wellbeing is absolutely a real important issue for us all and I think one of the things is there's a lot of stress, a lot of pressure in the system, it was mentioned earlier on about supervision for teachers that teacher needs to feel held needs to feel contained, needs to have time to process what's happened to her or him and we need to try and provide that and that comes from prioritising I suppose that time within the school but that's a difficult thing to do so I'm not answering your question completely but there is an issue there about how contained and supported that individual feels and we need to do a better job of doing that so that we're able to process what's happened to them and feel supported and held by the school if they are carrying a lot of unresolved worry and concern and distress then that has to be addressed and supported okay, thank you very much thank you for joined for what was a very good discussion and thank you all for your time this morning we've had, I think we'll find it's a very beneficial discussion the public part of our meeting has now concluded and we will consider our final agenda item in private so thank you wait