 Okay, so I'm really excited to welcome Allison Haynes from Kent State University Libraries to talk to us today. Allison gave a wonderful presentation on accessibility at the USETDA conference a few weeks ago and I was so excited that she agreed to come talk to us again. I've talked to Allison about letting us kind of ask a lot of questions and pick her brain and asked her to take us through her thought process as she and the others at her university have been thinking about what accessibility means and how it can be implemented in ATDs on their campus. So without further ado, I will turn it over to Allison. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah, such an obscure like connection that you know I got roped in by my library to help with this not roped in. I gladly volunteered and then ended up presenting and it was one of those hilarious presentations where you're kind of presenting what you're planning for something and it's not even real data yet. So we're we're still working to kind of move forward with it. But it's been it's been a great start for us and we focus more on accessibility in general or digital accessibility for ATDs specifically. I think both whatever you you want to share your knowledge on. OK, cool. Got that. All right. How many if you could so the bottom of your screen, you should see this little reactions thing if you guys could click on that. And how many of you have at least one full time employee on your campus who is dedicated to digital accessibility alone? Can I see hands if you do at least one person who has something about digital accessibility in their title, not even student accessibility services, but actually digital? Yeah, I don't know. No doubt. OK, so I'm much more used to teams than this. Should I be seeing things if people had their hands up, Emily, are you seeing anything? That's Heidi's comment, but that was it. I'm not seeing many, but I think that could mean that because I didn't raise mine because I don't know. So it might be OK. All right. And am I safe in making the assumption that most of you are housed in your university library? Am I safe in making that assumption? It's half and half, probably half people in the library, half people in the grad college. OK, so let's take a second. Then in the chat, I just want to get some ground work, some framework before we start, take a second in the chat and tell me like where your position lives. Let's do that real quick. You can even give me your title if you want, but it can be as OK. There we go. Good, good. OK, excellent. All right. Well, the first thing I'm going to encourage you to do is to Google accessibility and your institution title and try to see who you have out there. I'm just going to say that part very quickly. It can always be a mixed bag, depending on who you have, because this is such a subjective discipline that usually coordinators or people that spend full time work on this have very, very different ideas on their priorities and they're going to be customized for the university. So if it is a really small shop and my team is only two FTEs and a couple of students, if it is a really small shop, they may not be able to they may not have the bandwidth to engage with you on on ETs. But if they but they may be willing to, you'll just have to see think you could at least get some information from the beginning as to kind of who exists and and ways that you could connect with them a little bit. And then I'm going to walk you through a quick overall strategy doc that I do whenever I do that I use whenever I'm doing consulting new messages. Let's go down here. OK, and when I'm consulting with an individual team or an individual unit or department, and then I'm going to walk you through quickly the current rendition of our how to make your ETs accessible where we're at. I'm going to kind of fly through those a little bit and make those available to you, of course. And then let's just talk about it a little bit. So sharing screen. OK, Emily or Emily or Larry, do we have visuals on a document? Cool. OK, so the group that I have started on campus that kind of combines efforts towards accessibility is called Equal Access. So I partner with Student Accessibility Services on this. And then we work to like enfold other departments and units that are doing anything even tangentially related to accessibility and kind of rope them in and advertise their stuff and they advertise our stuff and this type of thing. But what we're finding is that in general, and I knew this was the case even a couple of years ago when I two and a half years ago or so when I started, but people are most people are exactly like like you guys are. They don't know where to start. It is not necessarily a positive emotion that they have when they think about digital accessibility. It's much more like somebody, you know, they're afraid DOJ or, you know, somebody DOE or somebody's going to come knocking at their door and they're going to have to answer for this or that they're going to show up in the figurative principles office someday and they're not even going to know what to say because they can't even talk intelligently about it. Yes, that's where most people are at. So my efforts over the last couple of years have been very, very much to make this feel manageable. That speaks to people really, really strongly because you guys are already overwhelmed with so much in higher ed, but then you throw in the fact they throw in the job titles that you guys have and how much compliance is in that and how much fact checking, how much detail work and how long it has taken each of you to become a subject matter expert in your area to think about pulling in a whole other area of knowledge, whole other body of knowledge just seems overwhelming. So these are kind of some of the steps that I've taken. There are four on this page. Just so you know what you're looking at. First of all, triage in the yellow create priorities, not perfection. Focus your efforts on the most critical, critical accessibility issues, affecting the most people. For some of you, this will be relevant. For some of you, it will not. You are not necessarily managing libraries of content, this type of thing. It still works, though, because this kind of information is really valid for any kind of content you're creating that's public facing. Frankly, it needs to be applicable for any kind of internal content you're creating to because it's not just, you know, these random far off students who are dealing with accessibility issues. It's us too. It's staff and faculty as well. So the first kind of thing to think about is, you know, how always if you just kind of get in there and do the first thing, somehow you feel a little bit better about it. So I try to start with what you guys know, making a list of your holdings and solutions, and then rank them by visibility or usage. I'm key on data with this. If you have access to Google Analytics around your published digital documents, if you have site improvement or something or other other things that you can look at and get some idea of analytics on, that's awesome. If not, just use your knowledge from doing your thing all day every day and try to figure out like what are the biggest chunks of information that the most people access? For me, the mandatory element is a big, big indicator. If a student faculty or staff, I like that. If student faculty or staff have to access your thing as a part of their job or as a part of their education, if it's mandatory, that's another key indicator of something that you want to start with. So then zeroing in onto that one digital target, then the sustainable habits thing. We are not expecting, nobody's expecting that you're going to spend an hour a day for the foreseeable future studying digital accessibility and getting your head around it so thoroughly that you're studying your own strategies. What we're trying to do is figure out ways where if it's already on the schedule, you feel like you have to do it. So starting in small ways with that, it can be 30 minutes a week. It could be 30 minutes every other week. It could be your first 15 or 20 minutes of the day, every day, you know, whatever you want to do, but something to start setting aside time specifically for digital accessibility where you're going to research, where you're going to move forward with things. So what could be the first habit you would set? And then the next two have a little bit more to do with collaboration. So one of the digital tools, the things that help you do your job. And the next one that we look through is going to outline this a little bit because it's going to be using Microsoft Word and Adobe Pro. So those are digital tools that you use. Make a list of those and how many of them have accessibility checkers. You are not expected to know this off the top of your head. The bottom line is if it's Microsoft, it's got a built-in accessibility checker. Adobe, at least the Acrobat forms do as well. And then as with everything, Google is your friend. Does blank have an accessibility checker built in? That's the kind of thing you're looking for because the easiest thing to do is to just run some sort of wizard inside of whatever you're doing. Not necessarily a master op content. So that's something to think about as well. And then the second one on optimize your resources is connecting with other people, which is exactly what we're doing today. Just sharing the knowledge, figuring out what everybody else is doing. I fully guarantee that we are at completely different stages at every single organization we're at with accessibility in general, let alone teaching, I was about to say forcing, teaching our graduate students to make their ETDs accessible. And then to take ownership. I think one of the first things that helps me get rid of a feeling of it being a burden is to be proud that I'm involved in it. To be excited about the fact that I'm connected to it. For me that comes, I'm largely empathy driven. So that means for me when I connect with a person who's having trouble using a digital thing, then that knowledge inspires me to want to help make the next digital thing that they encounter easier. So some of the simplest ways to do that are to, if you're on social media, just google disability activists or accessibility activists on Instagram or on Facebook. These types of things. You can also just google disability advocates or activists and hit some of their websites. That could even be your 15 minutes a day. Because your overall knowledge of what that world is like and the barriers that they face will fly through the roof and will be twice as impactful than if you just said, all right, today I've heard about this thing called alt text and I'm going to figure out what it is. It's just, it's more inspiring. There's much more. And then for most library people and people in academic affairs, speaking up and becoming known as the person who's annoying about accessibility is an excellent first start. Almost everybody who has come to me and brought a high level enterprise project to me for review has said it's because somebody else brought up accessibility and they hadn't even thought of it. So that's, that's really a big deal. Any thoughts, questions, comments on this document that you've seen? You did say you would share the document with us. I will, I will, I will. I was just looking at the chat and I don't think that Zoom is set up to attach in the chat, are they? Do we know? You can? I think you can. Yeah, I think, let's see. There's a, if you, there's like a little paper with the edge down or something like that. It's next to the smiley face in the chat. Yeah, I don't even have the chat window open right now. Oh, okay. Okay, there we go. Nice. Yes. So let me get, I will get that to you at the end. That will be easy. And then I'll get the next one to you. Any other questions or thoughts? Okay. Your number one takeaway from that document should be, I will not freak out. Okay. About accessibility, I should say. I can't help you if you're going to freak out about other things. All right. So I'm going to take you right into Adobe Illustrator, which is where literally it was on my task list to, to fix some edits on this ETD's task sheet before we even got on here. So I'm going to share that with you in just a second. Let me talk you through the progression. So we have a couple of ETD focused people at the university. We have our primary contact, her name is Cindy Kristoff. You guys that have been in this world for a while probably know Cindy. She's awesome. We have been collaborating with Ginny Dressler before or on this project as well. She's another university library's person who is in and out of all the same kinds of groups and organizations you guys are in. Both of them are wonderful. So apparently I had built a very strong accessibility collaboration with Ginny. I was starting to get to know Cindy a little bit because the large part of my job is just getting connected to people so they know we exist. And so Cindy sent out a kind of obscure email and you're like, yeah, everything we send out is obscure because it's so fine tuned everything we do. But she sent out an email and she said, would anybody be interested in helping me tackle research, publicize some of the new standards that are coming down from Ohio Link and accessibility. Then I saw accessibility and I was like, okay. So then we started talking together and meeting. The first thing I needed to understand was how this whole ETD thing works on our university. It is a gatekeeper who is internally called them gatekeepers. We call them the ETD contact to everybody else, one in every college. And then those report up to, not really report up to, but then Cindy coordinates them. So we knew that was in place. We also, as soon as we started working together, I went, you know, head down into the Ohio Link stuff and all of the possible hyperlinks that I could click on when I was in that stuff and follow all the rabbit holes I possibly could on everything they'd put up, which was wonderful. So often I feel like whether it's accessibility or other stuff you guys deal with all the time, you'll have an edict come down and then nobody will help you do it. And this was really great because it was very clearly outlined in them. No, I'm not just brown nosing since the other Emily is here. It was really easy to follow. So, but then again, we had to make decisions about how we were going to approach this, how seriously we were going to take each part of it, because you're talking about creating accessible documents. I mean, that's a huge thing. We have a 90 minute training on using Adobe Pro to make a document accessible. Yeah, I would like to have access to design analytics, what permissions do I need or whatever you want to ask me, maybe it's... Alison, I'm trying to figure out who... I think it's Wendy Robertson. It seems like you just joined a meeting and you're not muted. If you can hear us. Yeah, there we go. Can I, is it possible to wash those eight videos? And then do they? Okay, got it. Good deal. Okay, cool. But I heard her saying Google Analytics, so I was like, hey, maybe they were paying attention. No, I'm just kidding. It could have been totally unrelated. So with that massive amount of information, and there being no 100% accessibility, that's something that my team stresses a lot. There is no such thing. It's not a boolean. It's not yes or no, black or white, on or off. It's just not. So we make decisions based on the first thing that was on the last document, which is on a triage basis. So I needed to understand the workflow. I needed to understand. I needed to think about our students. I needed to think about our gatekeepers and what was going to make sense. We needed to talk to a high link to make sure that we could kind of get away with what we were proposing, getting away with. All of that stuff took time, but it wasn't like any of us sat down and did eight hours of work, solidly on any of us. It was like with everything else. The next step was showing up on a planner board or on a sticky note or whatever else. As soon as we had some time allocated, we dealt with it. And that was kind of how we progressed. And we are now to the point that's been a few months of work. Just a second, please. And we are now at the stage of meeting with our first guinea pig gatekeeper. We met with her yesterday. And what we did is we grabbed a sample dissertation from the past and we literally walked through my sheet and tried everything on it to figure out whether it worked or not and how many things that came up with stump students and that kind of thing. So this is where we landed. And yes, I'm going to share this as well because I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm fully aware of the fact that I've lost my zoom controls. Just a second here. Wow, it's really making it difficult. Just a second. Okay, if I am looking at one window that has all of the attendees and one window that has the chat right now, talk to me. How do I need to get back onto my controls where I can like share my screen? It's not showing me how. Any ideas? Pull your mouse all the way down to the bottom of your screen and see if it will pop up. Been there, done that, unfortunately. I'm about to go to the top of the screen. Yeah, I'm on a Mac, so. Yeah, I am. Okay, oh good. That's even better. Okay, we minimized. We maximized. We thumbnail viewed. Okay, here's the word. Let me see if I can take screen sharing back from you and then we can try it again. Okay, thank you. Yeah, so I'm going to share, I don't know, a whiteboard. There we go. Okay, there it is. There's my window. That was complicated. Way to go Zoom. Great, you've experienced there. Appreciate that. Okay, that's my rant for the day. Let's take a look at this then. Anyway, I was saying I'm going to share this with you because I recognize that it's kind of an unusual occurrence to have somebody on your team or on your university staff who understands enough about accessibility to actually play the odds game and say if I'm going to make decisions what things do I want to be able to hang my hat on until these students they have to do or they don't have to do. We settled on very, very few things. Okay, the root of it being the accessibility checkers within each of the documents. So the first thing I've started with, and this is very, very important to me, is to set a tone that is different from most of what they're encountering in this process. So they're encountering minutiae, bureaucracy, people telling them no on things they don't understand, feelings of panic, feelings like this is never actually going to happen, feelings that I will be a graduate student for the rest of my life, feelings that I have no idea who actually my friends are anymore because I can't, I don't even have the time to answer a text from them. These are the kind of things at least that were swimming through me when I was a grad student and I think still are. So the tone I took with this little intro paragraph is thanking them for their efforts. That's a different task than get this done or you're opening your university up for possible liability. You're joining thousands of other students ensuring equal access, this kind of thing below where the steps you'll need to follow. Okay, what I have done here is very much a universal design, multimodal kind of thing. I'm being very deliberate in the way that I'm putting icons that represent the platforms over on the left. I am using text but I'm trying to make the text as short and sweet as possible. I'm trying to draw the eye as quickly as possible to the things they have to do because as we were joking in our meeting yesterday with the stage most of these students are at I don't even trust them to remember what was in section one when they're working on section two. So it's got to be incredibly basic. So first what we've decided to have them do while they're still in word is to simply check their figure descriptions because what I found as I was reviewing some sample ETDs that were sent to me both theses and dissertations I was discovering that whether or not it was within a college that had a style guide whether or not that style guide had recommendations on figures or not it seemed like they were being trained by good people because they had good explanations for their figures. And when I saw that and I realized okay these figure descriptions are mentioning everything that a blind user would not be able to see okay they're describing everything very accurately visually. Sometimes they're putting it right under it or right under the figure. Sometimes they're just wrapping it in their explanation all the way around it. When I saw that I was like shoot that's better than most alt text writing would be. So that's when we set a call with Ohio link again and said hey if we just have them check for figure descriptions can we start there. So we did that then. Well now as we went in yesterday we discovered a couple of things that were different. First of all we had several tables in there. I didn't use the word tables so we're going to add that in. One other concept when you're presenting information that I really really hold fast to is that you don't want to give them all the same information and the same complexity of information at the same time. So I chunk them. I will have a little blurb maybe that goes out introducing the concept that's in an existing email. Then I might have a small little figure about it. Then I might have a one-pager like this but then there's going to be a website they can go to that has all of the possible things that could go wrong and how they would deal with it. But why do I want the person who's going to be able to go through this fine without problem to have to read through all the things that could go wrong? So I'm filtering the information that's a very deliberate information architecture choice that I've been making. So I also don't like the way that number one goes into number two it doesn't read clearly. So I've also added something that says if you feel good about the descriptions leave them be and if you don't then flesh out your figure descriptions more and then complete all those edits. All right. I'm going to move faster here real quick. You're exporting from Word to PDF. One styling for everything that has to do with the thing you're doing in the program. So this italicized slightly heavier font for everything that they're doing in the program. And then liberal use of capitals of bolding all of this kind of stuff to make sure that their eye goes to the really important stuff. We even decided on a couple other phrases in here that we were going to say were needed to be in caps. Now before I minimize my chat window I did see someone asking something about related to priorities. How do you even decide? If you're going to say it's never 100% how are you going to decide? And that's where I'm sharing this with you as a result of a few hours of conversations with my accessibility specialist. This is not something that you should be expected to arrive at on your own necessarily if you've not been trained in digital accessibility. It's hard. And Adobe's confusing and weird. Okay. Let's just say it how it is. So we had to get in there a lot and even the typical things that we got used to telling people what to do in Acrobat kind of were being weird in here. So we decided the bottom line is we want people to get to the point where when they run the accessibility checker in Adobe these four areas come up as past. So what we need to do is we need to go backwards from there and tell them what to do. So this was where we arrived at the first thing you're going to do is you're going to open up your accessibility wizard on the side. You're going to choose set alternate text and then the annoying part if you've written those figures while you got to go through and mark every single figure as decorative. Now my to-do list from yesterday is to check with our Adobe contact for DOIT for the Division of Information Technology and say to them do you have a way that we can mark all images as decorative at once because a lot of these students have a thousand. And at the same time I totally get their reasoning on not making that very easy because we kind of want that to be a hurdle. We want people to have to think about how they would describe each one. So we're marking those as decorative. We're running the accessibility check. We're talking them through the results that are going to show up on the left hand sidebar. And then this is a key key element. We are giving screenshots. They're not great resolution at this level. I need to go back and get better ones. But we're creating screenshots with exactly the things that we want to be checked as checked in using exactly those same icons over here. My goal with everything related to digital accessibility is to empower the people below me to do or beside me to do as much as possible of this on their own without needing me because the more I teach them to do the less they're going to need me and everybody else already needs me. So that's part of what we're going for. Question, I don't see names popping up. Cynthia. I had a question about marking figures as decorative. Is that permissible as opposed to getting text? Just say it. Why are you allowed to do that? I want to do it. Okay. So here's the deal. So the requirements of alt text are very experience based for the visually impaired user. We want to make sure that whatever a visually impaired user is looking at, they are not having an inferior experience from what a sighted person is looking at. We understand these foundations with this. So as you get into some of the language you're looking for context, explanation for the user that is experiencing this document in this moment. So the reason we went ahead and had them do, first of all, I was trying to get them out of as much laborious work as possible if we didn't have to make it a huge priority. Does that mean I was advocating for not using alt text? No, farthest thing from it. But what I realized when I started reading those was that the figure descriptions were working for that. So I got that ridiculous idea and started asking the people who do this all the time. Well, I do this all the time, but the people that have been doing it for 15 years and I consulted some experts that I knew and they were like, yeah, that qualifies. Then we went to Ohio link and they said, yeah, we can live with that. So that's where we got to the point of saying enough information will be accessed by the screen reader in the text itself, the text of the document and the text of the figure descriptions that the picture that is there does not actually add additional meaning. And that's the qualifier for alt text. You can mark it as decorative only if the image that you're seeing does not provide additional meaning. So we were taking, doing the hack of getting them to explain the additional meaning thing as part of their figure descriptions and then skipping the alt text part. Do I wish that we had, do I wish that as a result of this process, I was turning out people who could write perfect alt text across the board. Yes, it hurts me. It hurts me to not go to that level with this. But it's a scope. It's a triage based decision with the actual workflow and the actual kind of context of this experience in mind. Any other remaining questions on that? Did I hit what you were going for, Cynthia? Okay. All right. So you have seen the basics of this now. Let's just pull back. I will, rather than give these docs to you right now, let me give them to you at the end so that then you can study them on your own time. I think if we share now, we're all going to just be heads downstairs at them. So let's just start with opening up the floor, what is going through your mind with the millions of words that just came out of my mouth. What are you thinking about? And I, by the way, am completely and totally okay with you don't understand. Nobody around me has any idea what any of this means. And I am burned out and I can't stand it anymore. And somebody just tell me something to do. I'm totally fine with even that level of emotion. It's fine. Allison, I'll just kick things off by saying, I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about this presentation you're giving the most is that it's just full of real talk, which I just can't tell you how much I appreciate because this does feel, again, I like what you said about you come from a place I'll use my own word social justice or even just inclusion. Of course, we should be doing this, but for many, it does feel like an unfunded mandate. It's just it's more to do on top of people who are already stressed, strained, and kind of stretched. So I've appreciated all of the tips you've given about how to make it manageable, how to break it up into parts, how to do what you can, how to start somewhere, just real kudos to you. It's it's been great. Good, good. I do not believe in making life harder for anybody. And I feel like honestly, I think most of us would say this since we're in higher ed and we're in education in general, that our goal is to make the lives of the people around us easier, not harder, but we've had to get so immersed in the minutiae of our jobs that sometimes that takes over as our driving force. And I think accessibility is a great way to kind of come back to the specifics, to the details, to the people and to think, OK, so in my first 15 minutes this morning, I was on an Office of Civil Rights video that explained how a blind person was accessing their stuff and what made it easier for them. And so now I've got that in my head. So the next person that comes to me and says, why do I have to do this alt text thing? I don't get it. You've got lodged in your mind then that story of that real person who couldn't see the thing. And you as educators and as resourceful librarians are going, yeah, we're going to meet that need. And it's coming from a totally kind of different place. Let me catch a couple in the chat real quick and then we'll just open it back up again. The percentage of accessibility is a target. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So I spent a lot of hours on that question. How the heck are we going to do metrics with this? How do we say? OK, so if I'm going to do an audit of content, how am I going to determine how much of it is accessible? You know, am I going to hit this word doc or like one of those messed up PDFs that you guys were referencing in the chat? Am I going to say this is 80 percent acceptable? And if you do this one thing, you'll make it 83 percent. You just can't go there. It's such a ridiculous moving target. So what I have chosen to do is to merely say, I'm going to champion one thing with whoever it is I'm with at the moment. And that is a really, really hard approach to take for those of us who like to feel rooted in data, which kind of probably is absolutely everybody on this call. And it becomes this much different approach where instead of saying I can definitely rest in all of these metrics because I know that I've evaluated and analyzed it and suggested these improvements, it's it's very, very different. So I personally am thinking about for a huge high level thing here. So instead of working with a student with an electronic thesis in front of me, I'm thinking what do I want to put forward as the baseline best practice for every single ETD that's going to come out of my campus because that's my job to do that kind of thing. So when I'm thinking about that, I'm thinking about what bar do I want to set that is approachable and manageable and teachable. So for me, that's been learning all text in this document, learning what all text is and whether or not you've met it already with your figure descriptions and then learning how to use the accessibility checker in Acrobat Pro. That's the bottom line of it. For me, for this situation, so this exact scope, this exact use case, if the people do the stuff on this page, then we will mark it as accessible for that situation. Okay. And when I do product reviews, I will not put accessible, not accessible, recommend, do not recommend. I will say this product meets appropriate accessibility standards for the stated scope and use. In other words, if it's for one faculty member using it to scroll through grant data and they're the only person that's ever going to use the thing and they have no need for any assistive technology, I'm not going to prioritize that. At the level, I'm going to prioritize the new admissions portal. It's just a different focus and you have to get, you have to let some stuff go and you have to put some blinders on and choose not to think about the big picture and choose just what you can to face at the moment. Good faith efforts, accessibility gatekeepers. If you are to the point where you can have real discussions on your campus about how accessible you're going to make the ETDs, then you need to have those discussions together. I was in a situation where I could, as the subject matter expert for the campus, make recommendations and work with our ETD people to come up with the right flow for this particular situation. But I think you're going to need to work with the gatekeepers. If you are the one that they report to and you are the only one making the decisions, then you have to decide what you can get comfortable with. And it may look different for the first year than it does for five years from now. I want to get people to the point where they are setting header rows on tables. I want to get them to the point where they can do a couple other just really, really key things for accessible documents, not just because I want to shove my stuff down their throat, but because I am seeing, as I pay attention to LinkedIn and other job boards, that people who are going into the market with digital accessibility skills on their resume are garnering five, 10, 15K more in salary than people who aren't. This is valuable if I want to teach them. Who is ultimately responsible for accessibility of the student or the university? That also is not going to be a Boolean yes or no student or university. I can tell you my goal for this one is to lift as much off of the gatekeepers and Cindy and me as possible. So we are trying to foster independence with this, which I know is a pretty altruistic goal. We know how whiny and needy most graduate students can get towards the end of this process, but we're going to have a slightly different strategy for those. The strategy is for the people who are finishing this semester. This is the bare minimum we want you to get going with. But we're also starting next semester going to roll out some slightly different messaging for people who probably have three or four or six or eight semesters to go. And we're going to say, hey, you can choose alt text. You can choose figure descriptions. Here's how to do the best way. And that type of thing. Yes, so when something, when you do too much in Word, I'm speaking to Alison Crawford's question right now. It was submitted to her in Word, but when it was saved as a PDF, the formatting completely changed. They don't talk well to each other. So that's why we have made the decisions we have on here because we know that the alt text will come through from Word into Adobe without screwing anything up. Much more than that, we get nervous. OK, so again, we started with the end result. The end result is we're not. It's hard for us to say, but we're not teaching headings at this point. OK, we're not teaching some of the key organizational structures for a document at this stage. That means I don't even need to get into the argument of whether or not to use headings in Word and whether or not they'll transfer over to Adobe. Those are things we have to figure out for other workflows. For this one, it's kind of out of scope. And it's incredibly annoying. Has it happened sporadically? I've yet to pin it down to a specific cause. I think it's just a mood issue. Sometimes they're in the right mood and they talk well and play well and sometimes they're not. Some of the ways we've gotten around that, though, one of the key clarifiers that we do know is that if you're doing a significant amount of heading work and ordering of subjects and materials in Word and then you ask Adobe to autotag it, it's wiping all of that. We do know that much. That is happening pretty regularly. Okay, I think I've got most of that covered. So let's open it back up again. I do have a follow-up with that. This is Allison Crawford. You just answered my question. So when you are submitting and I may have missed this when you were in your discussion. So when you are asking for students to submit the document, how do you have them submit it? Is it in Word or is it in a PDF or in some other format? Yeah, so and this is information I've gleaned. So Ohio Emily catch me if I'm stating this incorrectly, but from what I gather on Kent States campus there have been there's been a pretty regular acceptance of the fact that it was going to get uploaded to the state database as a PDF. Now they were requesting for quite a while that we were requesting on campus for quite a while that it be a PDF-A which is that archivable version. We discovered that kind of for the situation if we okay so they cancel each other out let's just put it that way. If you go into a PDF if you try to make a PDF that's accessible into a PDF-A they just yell at each other and it screws up all the work that you've done. So what we did is we made another value with judgment and we said okay digital resources are changing so rapidly anyway let's just give up this whole obsession with PDF-A is because we think the value of having an accessible PDF is higher than the value of sticking to a PDF-A. So that's that's why we made the decision that we did the responsibility part of it. So again we started at the end and worked backwards talking about real conversations. We actually said to Ohio Link so are you guys set up so strongly that you're going to have somebody check in every single one of these accessibility reports and check in everyone and they're like no we ain't got no time for that and we're the same way we're all the same way what we're trying to do is we're trying to up the amount of accessibility that's being practiced on our campuses without saying you can't do unless you do this you can't submit at this point we're putting some some stronger some stronger requirements next year where they actually have to upload the accessibility report and those kinds of things but in my meeting yesterday with the gatekeeper we told her very clearly we know you're checking style you're checking APA you're checking formatting you do not need to check this okay you need to get this information into the hands of the student you need to get in the habit with your messaging of saying make sure you follow the tip sheet and attach an accessibility report but you are not responsible for adding one more cumbersome thing that you're not fully educated on to your list of stuff so again kind of obscure and tailored to our very specific use case so don't necessarily drag and drop to everything you could ever do and say yeah I just heard from another campus that they uh they kind of really don't care you know that's not what I'm saying Allison I'm going to jump in you've done a great job covering specifics with what Kent is doing and talking about decisions you've made I'm at Ohio link at the consortium level so so clarify and please clean up any messes I have made you know that's the the fun about Ohio link is all of our institutions manage their own content and they set their own policies so each one of you can and should be doing what works on your campus what your values are we set a minimum recommended standard for digital accessibility which is very plain it just has a few requirements and some people are adding to those or tweaking what they're able to like Allison has mentioned at Kent starting with she's going to expand they're going to expand and do more later and some of our schools like that approach as well kind of ramping up later because it's that good faith effort and trying to do something now teaching students down the line to do more later and kind of as Allison alluded to PDF a was all the rage and now we're into accessibility and understanding PDFs better and how to make them more usable for screen readers or other needs and it benefits everyone and so now that seems to be preferred to what we had previously thought and I'm sure our knowledge of accessibility or maybe the tools will be built as we all start to talk about and do this and hold vendors accountable for the content we purchase as well maybe there'll be better things down the road that make all of this easier or go beyond what we'd like to do now so I think you've you've set a good table and yes you'll have to figure out what works for you on campus if you want to talk about color contrast or headings built built into your templates whatever you're able to do with the Ohio Link E.T.D. Center it does require a PDF as the thesis document we do accept supplemental documents as well so if the piece is a composition maybe there's a recording that's uploaded but there's a signature page that's technically the PDF or something or a visual arts portfolio that might be a little different and then we're also adding a new document type for a digital accessibility report as a separate item that people can upload if they want so that we can also track that as well as the school's desire because again we're trying to be customizable in what we set up for our institutions and they get to pick and choose Yeah and the key point she went to that I just missed mentioning is that this is all going to be determined by people above you you got to check with your state people or whoever it is running the so Emily would it be state by state across the board here that state regs or some state equivalent of Ohio link exists everywhere or is that not a safe assumption it really depends on what people do for their local systems most institutions I don't think are part of a similar consortium Ohio link ETD center is pretty unique so wherever you upload your ETDs on campus if that's your IR or if you are part of a network you'd also have to work with whatever they need we're also Ohio link is a state agency but our fiscal agent is the Ohio state university so we also have to work with them on their campus requirements because we're technically OSU employees too so it's a fine balance of state versus our members and OSU as the fiscal agent so it's a lot of moving parts for us which is pretty unique and it's also well in digital accessibility in general though it's like that I mean I didn't realize until I came into this field that technically because Kent State is a public institution our policy register is considered state law so it's fascinating to say okay you might want to fight our policy but you know by choosing to become part of this federally funded or state funded organization you are buying into the policies of this university and this policy says we're going to make our stuff accessible one other thing I thought based on your answer then is if the majority of you or any of you are not beholden to someone else in your decision making honestly one of the easiest things you could do if you are completely new to the field of accessibility is to Google something like top five issues and document accessibility and you're going to learn about alt text you'll learn about color contrast you'll probably learn about setting headings which headings are pretty much the equivalent of a document outline so anybody who's been taught to outline is going to not have a difficult transition it's like you know if you're learning if you've learned Latin and then you go to Italian and you've got a head you know you've got a leg up but if you learn Latin and then you move to Mandarin not so much so that's kind of what's going on here if you've got this the concept of a document outline in your head moving to out to headings is next and there's going to be a couple other things on there based on whoever wrote the article or whatever and that's when I think if I were you this is what we've done I sat there and I thought about my people and if I didn't know my people well enough and I didn't know my campus well enough and I didn't know my users well enough I did some investigation phone calls and I said hey can you tell me are these assumptions that I'm making about how this works in your office am I making the correct assumptions and then once you get that info then you can start to say okay I'm staring at these five things for this one group what makes the most sense to have them start with what's going to feel manageable what's going to feel like we can move forward with it John I see a hand up Thank you Alison I would really like to thank you for your presentations and really enlightening and I'm sure everyone has been completely engaged and hopefully not freaking out in terms of I just wanted to address the organization organizational structure so of course Ohio is blessed with Ohio link and a very robust statewide network Texas is much the same with the Texas Digital Library center located within the University of Texas at Austin Florida I think has some a little bit looser kind of Federation and possibly California but I'm not quite sure the two more formal models are Ohio and Texas group we would certainly encourage states that have enough schools or resources to form kind of statewide or regional networks to accomplish these kind of things the other point I wanted to mention is a lot of schools do these things fairly independently and they watch what other folks are doing and so forth but there's a lot of maybe lack of guidance one of the when I was with the West Virginia University libraries I found one of the most invaluable resources and I think this is parallel with your experience looking to the people in the information technology group because invariably there would be at least one or more experts within the area and then getting people to talk to each other like the I think people learning the language and environment and conditions at the libraries and so forth and the same for graduate schools if you folks are involved in the dealing with ETDs in that fashion as well with reviewing or whatever and so I think those are the probably the prime places to look if you think you lack of resources so and again thank you so much for your oh you're welcome the other thing I'm learning about digital accessibility is it has one of three or four bedfellows in university structures usually it's either going to be in DOIT the division of information technology it's going to be in whatever your version of student accessibility services is or it's going to be in your your legal world whoever's dealing with compliance like ADA compliance for employees those are your first places to start I am blessed to be at a place that a few years ago really kind of took on accessibility and took it on to the point where they added room in the budget for this my salary is actually split between student accessibility services in the division of information technology but I didn't even find that out to like a year ago I didn't even know because I'm totally reporting up through the IT structure so that's another really really good thing to think about go to the compliance people go to the IT people and go to the student accessibility people and ask if there's anybody who can walk alongside you as you start to learn some of this stuff and that could be the beginning point where five years down the road leads to a full-time employee being hired at your institution that can focus on this so you're definitely choosing a pretty valuable thing to advocate for if you go down this route you know I had just one other point I remembered to bring in other players and thinking chiefly of ProQuest or Clarivate as they're known now because a lot of schools do whatever we call ETD tangentially they may not necessarily have a physical repository on campus but they do electronic thing and especially can with the aid of ETD administrator and getting those documents posted online and so if we start some conversations maybe with the folks at ProQuest on accessibility what they're doing and try to develop some standards in terms of what they're requiring we're recommending to folks and you know get everybody on the same page I think this is a really important conversation to take outside of this group and up to the corporate sector because you know they lead a lot of folks in our community as well I couldn't agree enough and the dilemma was starting to state something like that in a group like this is depending on what day of what semester you could have a very different reaction to that so on the one hand when I hear a suggestion like that that says okay things could get better if you approach it at an even higher level than you already even are sometimes that's completely overwhelming and I'm like you've got to be kidding me I don't have enough hours in my week to get my stuff done that I've got sometimes it's kind of exciting but it's in an unhealthy escapist kind of way like oh I could just totally pop you know plug myself into this and then I want to do any of this and neither of those is really the way to go what I have found to be really rewarding in the way that I think about this and I prioritize it is that it's going to what I've seen and again it needs to be value based for yourself but I have seen if I can force myself up out of the minutia and up out of the individual task working and force myself to think higher level and strategically about something like how do I connect with accessibility people on campus how do I connect with other universities in the area how do I find out who does this at the state level if I can make myself do that for a brief period of time I have found that it fuels my excitement for going back to the other stuff it's like a momentum builder don't understand all the psychology behind it I just know that often that is the case it's also kind of impressive to our superiors too unless you're in a place that really values being siloed most places are going to hear that you want to connect with you want to build connections with other places departments divisions universities and they're going to be like ooh you know so that's a bonus as well I'll tell you what guys I'll start the conversation with a higher up level corporate people I'll send a link because this is going to be recorded I'll send a link to Austin McLean on the folks at ProQuest and yeah ask them to take a look at this and consider the you know what's being discussed here and then get back maybe they could even become part of this group's conversation at a future point if you guys are willing to have that and if they they need a consultant you know where to come great great and I think too earlier I think you had addressed you know some of the corporate and publishers and so forth and coming around full circle and so you know we start these dialogues and you know eventually then we can come to finding some common ground I think so exactly and not all of you will be in in the room where it happens when when we're talking about procurement and decisions on digital resources but I tell you what you're in the room where there's talk about what publishers textbook to purchase you're in the room when you're there's discussions about whether or not you're going to go with this electronic resource platform or this one those are the discussions in which accessibility can be brought in and sometimes it needs no more than to say has anybody thought about accessibility with this and sometimes that's enough to just kind of get things going a little bit all right I see Larry and Emerson Larry you want to um okay first of all first of all Allison thanks a million for your presentation this is very enlightening now we have an issue on our campus relative to accessibility in that we had a quote accessibility conference last week I had several questions that I asked during that conference and I was I was only able to actually attend about 50% of it but I left the questions behind accessibility seems to be a real hot potato on our campus and nobody wants to deal with it and you ask questions and you really don't get anywhere how did you folks get somebody full time on accessibility on your campus how did that happen you're not talking about politics are you Larry I guess maybe I am because none of us have to deal with any of that I suppose you could ask advice from someone else it's tricky I think as with anything it comes down to the approach that the people who have the power have chosen to take and sometimes you can manage up and sometimes you can the reason I'm thriving in this position is because I have a boss who trusts me and trusts me to set my priorities and trusts me to network in the way that I I think is wise to network and the approach that I think is wise to take and we talk about it all the time of course but when you are in a more siloed environment or you have a personality as perhaps one of the key decision makers with accessibility on your campus if you have a personality who finds comfort in kind of the power that they hold or the virtue of the role and these types of things there can be a feeling of like don't challenge me you know please don't challenge me you know because I'm the expert here that can happen sometimes we all know how that feels we've all slipped into it at times ourselves that can be a consideration you also have personality coming into play with digital accessibility in a huge way based on the temperament of the people who are teaching it okay so my predecessor whose position was housed in student accessibility services from what I can gather and there were a few years in between us but from what I could gather didn't necessarily enjoy thinking in the gray he thrived on creating very clear black and white standards that he expected of different groups and when you get into that and you get incredibly passionate about these few things that you're hoping that people will accomplish or whatever starting to take in new ideas and starting to listen to other people that just gets a little bit harder we all know that the more fixed in your ways you become the harder it is to kind of to kind of branch out a little bit man I'm really talking real aren't I so I can't help you initiate any more change management than you're already doing what I can encourage you to do is to become to continue to be a voice for it in the areas you can control continue to set you know excitement to set strategy to whatever feel free to reach out to people like me or others if you get into specific questions you're like this is not googleable I don't even have any idea who to ask when we're talking about the technicalities of the discipline um but maybe for a little while stay in your lane rely on other places for information let the culture continue to develop and here's the other one that really really works offer yourself as a helper to them instead of going to them asking for more things say through three or four different things that have happened recently in my life I find myself prioritizing accessibility more than I ever have before this is cool stuff I like this this impacts real people which means I'm thinking about you and your jobs is there anything small task related that I can help with that you want to throw my way that I could maybe lighten your load a little bit we know you ain't got time for that okay but it's a completely different approach and it's one that kind of unconsciously subconsciously can create an ally rather than um an adversary did I get anywhere near what you were hoping that would be wonderful what I'm wondering you know can we look at this like we would look at plagiarism for example and we run plagiarism checkers and we have a a goal that we said in terms of plagiarism and if that goal is met then we're okay with that can we we do the same thing relative to accessibility you're in the library right larry I'm not in the library or that's another issue our library is trying to put together a committee for looking at accessibility good put the the committee together with everybody within the library and that excludes the graduate school that excludes the church teaching and learning center which is important because they're the blackboard folks oh yeah that's a real important area yep so you are in graduate school yourself in the graduate school yes okay um yes and no the first kind of reckoning I need to throw out there is that I know this is going to be shocking for a lot of you but vendors don't always tell the truth okay so where I'm going with that is you are going to get multiple emails from different types of plagiarism related vendors or whoever else who's googling different things and find your name and they just want to send you a promo or whatever you're going to see ads you know you're going to get all your tailored marketing as soon as you start getting accessibility every time you get on to amazon you're going to see targeted ads about an accessibility overlay or something like that the problem is number one accessibility overlays do not work in fact sometimes they can make things worse okay in general okay I'm talking to generalities here in general we try to steal steer people away from buying a thing that sits on top of all their code and creates this unimpeachable or this you know easily managed access to all of their stuff the other tricky part is okay so like by whose standards are you going to say it's accessible okay because the core of all of this which makes it even weirder than plagiarism I think is that there's nobody at some single level who literally has authority and jurisdiction over this stuff okay so we have the guidelines we have this this governing kind of body that the web accessibility initiative we have people all over the world that are focused on this but in the United States it's not in law yet and there's the point now where you know the amendments act some of the different things that are happening at the Department of Education the Office of Civil Rights are starting to introduce more actual digital accessibility things in there that are supposed to actually be law when that happens our lives are going to come a lot easier okay until then we have to do our research and kind of crown ourselves as some quasi subject matter experts at our level okay humbly because there's no way you're ever going to learn all of it any of us are ever going to learn all of it and say hey I'd like to make a value-based decision on what I can control I would like to see my students turning in ETDs that pass color contrast and have alt text or figure descriptions okay so then you're bringing it out of the everything and into the world that you can control and you're starting to set a standard you're starting to set expectations and sometimes setting expectations is comfortable for people especially people in highly technical fields especially library folks information folks it can be somewhat comforting to have somebody just say okay just let's do this and they can get tricky as well with politics and without whatever else but I think you could good Emily's got some more good stuff there love it okay so cognitive issues oh surely you're on you're on my bandwagon okay resolution let me check and make sure thank you Heidi Heidi's gone all right let's hit this with Shirley for a minute so cognitive issues her question is I don't understand or her statement how cognitive issues are included in excess aren't are you saying surely you don't understand how they are or how they aren't why they are or why they aren't included I'm assuming you mean why they aren't included Shirley am I right on that no I don't I just know that legally it sounds like accessibility includes not only visual issues but other areas of disability one being it sure does cognition and I'm thinking that's you're you're with me talking about PhD level documentation and scientific documentation on top of that highly technical and intricate yeah and you bring up multiple things that are just you know digging all the bells for me the first thing I'm thinking of however is that there is not a mandate to or a PhD student to make their material learnable by everybody it's kind of the opposite you're to be proving that you have found such a niche element that it has been written on before but okay so I think I think that's proving what you have kind of come to the pinnacle of your industry in knowledge wise and it's kind of proving that but then aside from the whole ETD spotlight I couldn't agree more and I'm glad that you went there because what I focused on today are a couple of the a couple of the most high level things you look at when you're talking about whether assistive technology will play well with these things assistive technology being screen readers mobile devices if you can't operate a mouse keyboard only interaction different things like this where there's something plugged in or being used as an intermediary between the user and the digital thing because that's that's where the movement start that's where the education of all of this started it started by you know people saying I can't I can't understand any of this and I shouldn't be penalized for that because I'm blind and because I'm legally blind but the discussion has grown and the movement has has grown and the focus on education has grown I just presented last week a specialized accessible marketing training for a certain group and just was curious about some data I had displayed so I have a bar graph of all of the students that student accessibility services represented on Kent State last year 21 to 22 academic year and although we don't have strong banner coding yet for individual disabilities we do have some very high level stuff that goes into access when they when they put it in and so I was able to crunch the numbers and realize that 94 percent of the disabilities the primary disability reported by our SAS students was invisible meaning it's related to cognition it's perhaps a neurodiversity and neurodiversity can include ADHD dysplasia dyslexia autism spectrum all of this so and then you move into your veteran population and you move into traumatic brain injury you move into basic learning just what we would have traditionally called learning disabilities where there's a processing disorder all of those things impact the way that they come at information so this is such an obscure and kind of baby area that it's just now bubbling to the top within the last few years you just now are seeing a lot more discussion a lot more papers being written on a lot more articles and blogs being written on it but where I come at it from is very clearly from a user experience and accessibility kind of thing combined so at the very beginning when I was showing you how I chose to lay things out on that first on the etd document that is all based in cognitive accessibility so I chose to do multimodal things I found I chose to do something that's in a graphic an image something that's in text giving them access to a website which there also has some video content which would be another way of learning I chose to reduce my text as much as possible to be as simple and clear as possible I chose to try to keep as much white space in the document as I could so that it's not as overwhelming it's a it's a losing battle at the document like this because you got to try to get enough information in there for them to be able to do it well but you've also got to try to display it in a way that even the person who is already let's say burdened by all kinds of other things that impact their cognition they have chronic migraines they woke up that day with the migraine because the the barometric pressure dropped the day before that they found out they were supposed to graduate next semester but their their minor qualifications aren't going to match and an advisor won't help them with it you know they found out that their dog died at home you know all of these things and then then the end of the day at 10 30 at night they're looking at this accessibility ETD thing or whatever and you know they are already so full from life that their processing is going to be low so this is an area that I'm jumping into a lot and but again going back to scope and triage there is no way at this stage of our process and trying to up the level accessibility of ETDs there's no way at this level to teach cognitive design because it's just it's not appropriate right now for this scope and triage but I tell you what it is at the content creation level for most other people and I've I've gone there a lot with accessible marketing and I'm now going to add into the train into the carousel of trainings for next semester something along the lines of becoming a better communicator by using clean writing and clean design and that is all all targeting the indivisible indivisible thank you pledge allegiance so that's it's all targeting that and honestly that's a curb cut effect too because when I'm exhausted maybe I'm not dealing with a chronic disability but when I'm exhausted and overwhelmed something that's been designed well you know and all of us are a nonprofit we're not in commercial sales or anything but I tell you what people with disabilities are going to the vendors that they can use their stuff they can quickly navigate through their e-commerce platform they can understand what they're being told to do their assistive technology can interact with it and they're doing the same thing with accessibility the the business value of continuing to promote accessibility is strong I realize in personal impact too one more quick thing and then we'll get back to other other questions but just for example starting to you know set out some sort of ground rules for this and telling people the why telling people hey we're going to focus on color contrast because 40 percent of men are colorblind in some way shape or another okay and think about think about your dissertation committee how many of them are over 45 or 50 that means we're all dealing with some sort of issue as we're talking about vision and these kinds of things so as I'm thinking about that that's going to be our priority this time we're going to focus on color contrast the bizarre thing is you may have somebody who hears that whose nephew is legally blind who's 17 and they say hey when it's time for you to start picking a college look here because they're thinking about accessibility it's bizarre the things that are coming up so it definitely is a ripple effect I really appreciate your comments because I've created it's been there for many years an ETD word template that has built-in headings chapter heads etc captioning four tables and figures and we already talk about the fact that you don't have for example one head at a level if you're going to divide anything it has to be into two parts and except for the time looks like you're heading one probably helps that I'm not really have scientific background because when I look at these ETDs that I can see things that just don't make sense to me there you go and it often helps them in creating a more accessible document cognitively yeah I couldn't I couldn't agree more I think one of the easiest segues we're going to have when we start to talk about headings is by showing examples of people who created ETDs with a clickable table of contents because that clickable table of contents is essentially the root of the headings conversation and so I think that's going to be a good segue it's another example about how we're all at different places in this journey Cindy would tell you all she wants for Christmas is for all the colleges to agree to use one template you know we're not we don't have templates across the board we have some schools have very few guidelines or at least none of them are written down nursing and then another one we have all the way on the other spectrum style guides that are in the dozens of pages long with gatekeepers who will who will catch every little APA thing and send it back so and with this as with all things there's politics involved there's very very strong personal preferences involved and for whatever reason we're not making headway on a global template conversation at Kent State but Doug on it we're talking about accessibility so you know it's just one where you can win you know yeah Valerie did you have a question no I was just going to respond to John's comment about getting pro question involved I had a couple conversations with the representatives at ProQuest regarding accessibility and they have seemed to have a strong interest in knowing what we feel is important in making a document accessible so I just wanted to share that so I think John will find them very receptive great thank you Valerie just out of curiosity how many of you are familiar with the term VPAT the acronym VPAT could you raise your hand if you are familiar with a VPAT okay VPAT stands for okay Wendy good voluntary product assessment template okay and then Valerie as well so what that is is it's a voluntary document that vendors can be given there's different versions that are published as you know as they're updated and we can give that to vendors and we can say hey hire somebody or go to your highly technical people in the company and fill this out for us do some testing let us know whether this guideline is met and whether this one is partially met or fully and all of these types of things as with anything else people won't always be transparent with it or they won't necessarily have the skill set to understand everything that's asked but that's an example of something that's being standardized across the board when you know you got a vendor who is marketing to hire ed they're starting to hear it from more places than one so ProQuest is a great example of that I just was curious I was going to look at ProQuest's VPAT so that's another strong thing to do when you are another major tip here let's say you're evaluating two electronic platforms or you're trying to decide whose e-book you're going to recommend for this course or section or whatever else that acronym VPAT and also just so googling the vendor name or the platform name and that also googling the platform name and accessibility statement or just accessibility and you can start to get a really clear picture by just hanging out on some websites if there's nothing anywhere then you know there we go in the chat there we've got some VPAT-ish and accessibility profile stuff happening you can start to get a good feeling okay about or a good impression as to where they stand on different things so the VPAT is a very valuable tool to start asking your vendors for and to just kind of throw your weight around a little bit and say hey you know you want to keep marketing to hire ed you want to keep marketing to education units you know this is going to be something that's going to behoove you business case-wise to actually have so hey get her done and we'll be all the more inclined to throw our money at you thank you John usually I have my my co-worker on trainings or presentations with me and while I'm rambling he's putting all of the links in the chat and then when he's talking I'm putting the links in the chat so John you're going to be my John Stacey everybody else you're going to Emily going to be my URL teammate there that's good all right what else you guys thinking about or are you totally overstimulated and need to walk around the block or drink less coffee or something Alison you are amazing thank you so much thank you much for for coming in making this a little bit less scary giving us some action steps and things that we can take back to our stakeholders to get things started here so thank you so much for your time your advice you know I enjoyed it the more we do this the better it is I wouldn't have gotten my my leg in the door I wouldn't I would have been a complete failure my first few months in this job if the people that I reached out to at other colleges and universities hadn't been able to tell me hadn't been willing to tell me their tips and tricks that's how I got here if you are at the point where you couldn't talk somebody in your work structure into a full-time position but you could get away with hiring a consultant reach out to me let me know because this is something I'm very experienced and my personal website is just allisonhaines.com spelled with one L to the other Alice and I'm sorry your parents didn't you know have you spell it correctly I'm sorry but so so thank you I was really glad to have you guys ask me to do this awesome thank you so Allison will share those documents with us and if you want to send them to me I can send them to the whole group some of these links to that that've been shared in the chat so that everybody can have them and I'll share the video as well yep and one other thing I'll let you guys know is that one of the beautiful things that I've been really proud of is our Equal Access Academy that we've gotten off the ground and we've got about a dozen unique trainings now that we're doing a couple times this semester those I have deliberately worked to make open to guests in the public so those would be a great starting point we've got some that are focused on accessibility awareness in general neurodivergence how accessibility looks on a college campus those types of things and then we've got the majority of them are based in creating accessible digital content so I'm gonna drop those links in the chat as well where you guys can take a look in our help topics page we have curated very very carefully to be applicable in higher ed situations so it'll be a good place to start for some of you or a good place to dig in for some technical answers for those of you that are a little farther down the road on this journey thank you again and thank you everyone for coming to our presentation today I will share everything with everyone and I think too let's keep having these conversations I think we've already kind of started a cohort of people here who are thinking about some of the same things so let's keep in touch with each other keep in touch with Alison ask questions as you think of them and then let's make this happen morning on the ETD it's not final yet and this has not been beta tested with anybody yet I'm adding stuff to it regularly so reach back out if you really want to use it with somebody or modify it with you guys reach back out and I'll give you a more recent copy great Alison and Emily may we have your permission to post this recording on the US ETD US ETD a YouTube channel of course that would be totally fine thank you great all right thank you again and I hope you'll have a great day I'll send the links and everything out to everybody very soon take care