 Welcome, everyone, to this session of ending mass incarceration, ending the death penalty. This is a session that meets every once a month. And recently, it's been allocated to different members of the committee to sponsor the one-hour session and to talk especially about what's happening in their own state. And we are in Vermont now. I will just let people know that Vermont is 92.5% white and 1.3% black and 6.2% other. But blacks were sentenced at a 7% level to prison in Vermont in the last few years. So I mean, I think that's the average for the country, unfortunately, that there is that dichotomy between numbers of black folks in the state and numbers of them in prison. So we're going to talk to some of the people who are experts on all this. And so I welcome you all. This is great. There's 12 people and maybe a few more coming on still. And we wanted to start with Charles Sullivan. And I want to tell you a bit about him. He and his wife started Cure, Citizens United, for the reparation, no, not reparation, or rehabilitation of errants, such an interesting title. Way back in 1969, he and his wife, his new wife, devoted themselves to basically serving. They were both former religious people, devoted themselves to serving the people at the bottom. And they were living in a VW bus and taking part in demonstrations when the protests at Attica started in 1971. This led them to commit their work full time on jail and prison reform. Now there are Cure chapters in most states, and it will be very interesting to talk to some of the people on this call. Do you have a Cure chapter in your state? So Charlie, I think he's, we can call you Charlie. I've known you from a distance for a long time. Could you tell us what is currently happening with nationally and internationally with Cure? And of course, we have a very limited time on this whole thing, but I think people would be interested to know that Cure actually has an international component. So please go ahead. Can you see me, Robin? OK, now you can. OK. You can hear me. Yes. And I can hear you in just one thing, that George Friday will have the stopwatch. And I mentioned seven minutes. So I'll jump right into it. And let me say, to start off, when we were incarcerated back in Mayday of 1971, I was introduced to the Free Vermont Movement. And we ended up going to Vermont. We were living in a Volkswagen van then, and we're going to Vermont then. And of course, we have gone back to Vermont since we have a very active chapter that you're going to hear from. And a wonderful inspiration who's no longer with us, Robin. I think there may be a little static. But anyway, it's Faye Honeyknot, who is the classic book way back instead of prisons. And we had a wonderful visit with her a couple of times. So anyway, well, normally we usually start with where we started, which was in Texas. But let me jump to the international and come back to the national. Well, we're about ready to announce the ninth international conference that we're going to have in Nairobi, Kenya in next May. And these conferences are looking at prison reform and human rights. And so we will be following up in announcing this. And hopefully people can come to it and the details. And Robin, what of course I can do is put people on email or whatever to receive the information. This is the ninth one. We've had him all over the world, really. And Bangkok, Costa Rica, Rwanda, the last one was. And usually average about 20 countries represented. And hopefully this will be the same in maybe even more. Who knows? With the virus and hopefully that would not be any obstacle. So anyway, people might want to follow up and to get back to us in regard to joining with us next May in Kenya. So that's the first. And then secondly, nationally, of course, you've had such wonderful members of Congress that we have been leaders. And of course, Senator Sanders has been wonderful. I wish the other day, my father, I grew up in Alabama. Maybe you can tell by my accent. But my father was a dentist. And no longer, of course, with us. But I wish that Bernie and I hope that he continues to push for the dentistry in this wonderful bill that's so moving through Congress and hopefully and will be signed. And I think there was growing up in Alabama something that people don't consider. There's a lot of racism involved dentistry in that people, African-Americans did not have access to dentists. And so it's something that I think that should be brought out. And hopefully, Senator Sanders knowing him will not abandon this issue, but to make sure that dental is covered eventually. The only other thing, and it also concerns the issue of the 13th Amendment. The 13th Amendment was passed and freed all slaves, except those who commit crimes. And so there is a move. And it's a very strong move now in Congress where we have close to 200 members of Congress who are co-sponsoring at a constitutional amendment to repeal the 13th Amendment exclusion clause, which says that all people are freed. There are no slavery, except those who commit crimes. So the exception clause would be finally eliminated after all these years if we can pass this amendment. Now it takes, as people may know, takes a constitutional amendment. You have to have two-thirds of Congress. And then you have to have four-fifths of the states ratify it. So it's something that hopefully Vermont will be one of the leaders in ratifying it once it is passed by Congress. And then the final thing, and I hope I'm not going to overdo it, I know he's got the joke. Is it close? Seven minutes? I want to mention one last thing with Senator Lay. Senator Lay has been wonderful and such a leader. But I know he's very interested in international issues. And I hope even being a lame duck that he might raise the issue that the international, inter-American Commission on Human Rights, it was ratified by President Jimmy Carter, but it's never been actually passed by the Congress. And so I remember Senator William Praxmire back in the late 80s, every day talked about the needs to ratify the Convention on Torture. And as a going away president, they did ratify it. So something that, if you get a chance to talk to Senator Lay, he doing this august recess to bring to his attention that it would be wonderful. He probably knows it, to talk about the ratification of something that Jimmy Carter signed as president, that we need to be part of the International Commission on Human Rights. So I can certainly talk about that if you, someone decides to talk to Senator Lay, he of course, thank him for all of his wonderful leadership, but that if he might be willing to talk about that before he leaves the Senate in December. So under the seven minutes, sure. If so, I'll pass it on. Well, Dan. Well, Robin, we forgot to do the check-in. I see a lot of people I don't recognize. So could we do the check-in before we go on? Yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry, I completely forgot about that. And so what check-in is, is everyone says, hello, where you come from, whether you're in a branch of Will for an organization and you have, what is it? One minute, two minutes to check-in. And I- 30 seconds, actually, 30 seconds. OK, this woman is very strict here, Carissa. So maybe I'll call on people. And a new person who's right next to me in the screen is Eric Agnero. Could you just introduce yourself? He's muted. Hello, hello, yes. My name is Eric Agnero, originally from the Ivory Coast. And a new, I mean, the Monter now. And I'm very pleased to be here. I'm a board member of Media Factory in Burlington, a board member of so many, so many organizations, but a very good friend of Will. And then I'm glad to be here, very interested in that topic because I, myself, experience this issue in Vermont when I came for the first time 10 years ago, so much so that I had to leave the state because I couldn't find a way to go up the ladder, the social ladder, because all blacks, all Africans were just doomed to be in the factories or in the peripheries of the society. I rebelled. I went and then stayed in the African Union for quite a while. And then here I'm back. Things have changed. Thank you, thank you very much. Have to do be done, voilà. Yeah, all right. Sandy, I don't see your face there, but can you unmute yourself, as they say? Hello, Sandy. Yeah, hi. Oh, good. There you are. And just turn the computer a little bit so we see your face if possible. Yeah. So we're just asking your name. And where you live. And then we'll be coming back to you because you're one of the speakers. OK, but I don't have a heck of a lot of time, but I'm Sandy Bear and I'm an attorney. And I'm here for the Caroline Fund. All right, thank you. And George Friday, can you tell the newcomers who you are? Hi there. I'm George Friday. I'm in the Southern Piedmont branch in North Carolina. I'm a co-convener of this subcommittee. And I'm also the person who lets you know when the time is up. This means you've got two minutes left. After those two minutes, I might mute you if our time is short. But I'm glad to be here. Wonderful, thank you. OK, Timothy, good to see you. You'll be speaking later also. So please feel free to call me Tim. OK. My name's Tim Burgess. I am the state leader for Cure Citizens United for the Rehabilitation of Arons. And I am just glad to be here. I've previously incarcerated and very politically active. So that's my story. Wonderful. All right, Julie Siegel, if you can unmute. Hello, everyone, I'm Julie Siegel. I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. Yes, there are Wilk members in Kentucky. I'm starting a branch here in Greater Louisville, which includes Indiana and Kentucky. And I was on the National Staff of Wilk. In the 1970s, Jimmy Carter was president. We were working on the SALT II Treaty and the Neutron Bomb. And I was national membership director on Race Street for the US section. I worked with Milbert Scott Olmsted, who was a friend of Jane Adams. Oh, my goodness, way back then. Yeah, way back then. And Kay Camp was the international president. And she was at the signing of the peace treaty for the Vietnam War. Wilk was there. Yes, I loved her. Wonderful. Thank you. Wonderful to see you. OK, Donna, can you unmute? Yes, hello there, Donna Peel from Cape Cod. Steamy up here. I'm in the Cape Cod branch of Wilk and the new chair of Advancing Human Rights, which I'm very proud to represent. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, great. Deborah, hi. How are you from down south there? Hi. Glad to see everybody. I'm Deborah Livingston. I'm the chair of the Tucson, Arizona branch. And I've been a member of Wilk since, I don't know, back in the 70s and been in Tucson for 40 years. And I'm just glad to be part of this group right now. Great, great. OK, Joan. Hello, everybody. I'm Joan Goddard from the San Jose, California branch in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I've only been a member of Wilk for about 20 years. So I'm a newcomer. Well, you've been, you've stayed up for lost time by being such an involved member on the National Board and everything. Thank you. Teresa, you wanted to say hi? Thank you, Robin. Teresa Alamein. I'm in the Fannie. Lou Hamer branch in Columbus, Georgia. And I'm co-convener of this group on ending mass incarceration. And I first joined Wilk in 1988 in Cleveland. And I kind of lost my way for about 10 years. And then I reconnected with Wilk in the Triangle with the Triangle branch. And so I'm now in Columbus, Georgia. And we started our own branch here a little over a year ago, the Fannie Lou Hamer branch. And I'm so glad to see people here from Kentucky and Arizona, because those are new states to put on the rotation. You hear me, Donna? So they can talk about what's happening in their states at the next meetings coming up. So thank you so much, everyone, for being here. Great, yes. And let's see, Odeo, are you in this continent, or are you still in France? I'm still in France. Thank you. My name is Odeo Lugano-Heber. I am a member of the Michigan Ann Arbor branch. But I am in Burgundy in France. And what else? I have been in Wilk for about 30 years. And I was an activist before with Woman in Black. Great, thank you. And Cheryl, you're our last person here, Cheryl Dersh. Can you hear me? Yeah. OK, so I'm on the road. But I've been a Wilk member on and off for maybe only 15 years, so I'm probably the newest comer. And I've been working on a project with bringing a pilot program to the incarcerated women here in Vermont in our prison. Yes, and teaching entrepreneurship to people coming out of prison. That's wonderful. So I hope you can stay on and give your opinions as we go along. Maybe since Sandy seems to be anxious to leave, maybe she could speak before Timothy. And then you would be able to leave the, let me explain who Sandy Barrett is. She's a lawyer. She's been a state, Vermont state representative, a professor of history, and international relations at the multitude of places, especially Burlington College where I was also. And she has founded a nonprofit organization aimed at helping women after her daughter was murdered in 1998 in an incident of domestic violence. The Caroline Baird-Critfield Memorial Fund for Women in Need has been offering financial and legal support in emergencies to women and girls since 1998. She's as a retired lawyer. No, no, no, I'm not retired. May I finish the sentence? Well, I need to say that because I still practice the law, Robin. That's just what I was going to say. She is now working full-time in the offices of the Association of Africans Living in Vermont, offering legal services to mainly immigrant women. She hopes to see a people's law center open up in Burlington soon. There is insufficient legal assistance offered to poor women and men in our so-called justice system. So if you could just take maybe five minutes to explain what you're doing and your connections with the legal system and the so-called justice system over time. As Robin said, my name is Sandy Bann. I've been an attorney since 1977. And then a professor as well. When I left Burlington College, when it collapsed, financially, on 2016, I was privileged to have a legal space here. I have my own, I have an office here where I represent largely black and brown women and new American women in the family court. And I find that this is a real need. Women need, for instance, they are often victims of domestic violence. They are often the victims of family situations where husbands or mace leave them with a lot of children, with no visible child support, or no way to get child support. They often sometimes lose custody of their children because they lack legal access to the child. There's something weird happening with your sound. Can you keep yourself close to the computer so we can hear you? Yes. And so I find that most of the work I do here is for free or pro bono or low bono, if people have a little bit of money to contribute. That's the Caroline Fund. I hope to expand the Caroline Fund into what I would call as a People's Law School, Law Center for the Study of Law and Public Affairs. I also present Wednesday night seminars on either a legal topic or on a topic affecting public affairs. I feel like the need for women and children and their families has been totally neglected by Burlington and, in fact, by almost all organizations that I'm familiar with. So I'm here to say that to Willf that because Willf is pledged, I believe, to the empowerment of women and girls, the People's Law Center would be a very important thing for us to cooperate on. And I guess that's why I'm here to say that today. And thank you. Thank you, Robin, for inviting me. Okay, so when you say where you are right now, could you explain a little more about the Association of Africans Living in Vermont? Maybe Eric could do that better because he's been associated with this place longer than I have, right, Eric? All right, thank you, Sandy. I'm also glad to say that as your paralegal, your assistant and on the project of the People's Law School, the Association of African Living in Vermont started, let's say 15 years, about 15 years ago as an association of Africans living in the state a place where new migrants and new Americans could get some help, you know, in terms of the illegal and immigration, many immigration problems. And then, thank God, the association has evolved into a very big organization now that encompasses or that covers all the new Americans. So you will find Nepalese, you will find the Vietnamese, you will find people from all over Africa and other newcomers. And I'm pretty sure the Afghans have maybe started going there. So the African Living, the association has found a very useful to bring in Sandy to help the ladies, mostly the ladies and the kids who have trouble navigating to the legal system in Vermont, especially now that everything is online, most of these women, most of these people don't know how to write to read, nor do they know how to read even in their own languages. So they have a lot of needs. And then so far, so good, we haven't lost any case yet. It ranges from domestic violence to, you know, a problem on the roads with some of them, you know, driving under influence or many problems that, you know, we try to solve. But it's important because they are bearing or they are giving to Vermont the future of this state, all these kids that, you know, hopefully could be good actors of development in our community. But if these women, if these families are broken, are not assisted, all of the kids or the majority of them will end up in the street. Peter Clavel, who is a good friend of us and who's helping us also, have noticed that now you can find more and more of these young Africans, young new Americans in the street. They are, some of them are becoming homeless people and they're having problems with drugs, we've been witnessing, yeah, we've been witnessing the rise of crime in these communities. So it's important that we give them the tools to understand the legal system, but also the tool to defend themselves when they are facing sometimes a court system that is very implacable, especially to people of color. Yes, and I would just like to add that I think Vermont has been unique insofar as yes, we're about the widest state in the union, but there has been an effort through Bernie Sanders who was our mayor for a long time to work with the refugee, the federal refugee assistance program to bring Africans maybe, you know, maybe 50 people at a time from the Congo or from Kenya or from different places and work at integrating them into the community. And I think that's been very, very positive and of course lots of problems connected with it. So the association for Africans living in Vermont, I think is, I don't know, it's maybe whether to what degree it's unique to our state but it performs a very important role and it's not only for Africans, there's four people from Nepal and so on that come here and need legal advice. Okay, well, thank you. And so now let's get back to Tim. Tim is a, I've written something down here about you but you introduced yourself perfectly well. You're a prisoner, advocate and mediator and he is a former inmate to the Vermont Department of Corrections in a corrections corporation of America facility. Maybe you can explain how that must be out of state. And so I'm just wondering what specifically is pure Citizens United for the rehabilitation of parents, what is pure doing in the state of Vermont? And we want to spread the news of what it's doing and become part of it. This is five minutes. Five minutes, that would be good. So my name is Tim Burgess and I was incarcerated from 2004 to 2009 and then 2009 to 2017, I was under community supervision. What pure is doing in Vermont is we're advocating a mediator for people who are incarcerated because there's so many flaws and failures for those people who are incarcerated. What I mean by flaws and failures is, for instance, people in close custody are not getting outside, they're not allowed outside. So I take an issue like that, I go to the commissioner and his representatives and I just let them know what the A, that's unacceptable and B, what are we gonna do to make a plan to make it better? When I was incarcerated, I had lived in California for 12 years and I came to know quite a few different communities and when I became incarcerated, I remember my mother visiting the first time at Chittenden was a male facility at the time. She said to me, are they incarcerating every young black male in Vermont? The number, my experience with a number of young African-American people or even Hispanic people that get incarcerated due to, excuse me, due to simply being black and being in the community. I mean, I practiced, I was honored when a judge here in Vermont allowed me to act as a jailhouse lawyer and present a case. That's where I focused my work while I was incarcerated on research and how to help people move beyond the circumstances they find themselves in. Because it's easy to get mired down. I know this. It's easy to get mired down and say, well, I have no resource, I have a lot of people incarcerated, my experience are, they have not a strong support network in the community. They have very little information on the resources that are available to them. They have no information on getting a job, how to get a job with a conviction. So those are all the things I do to work with people who contact me from usually the prisons. I think I have eight, maybe nine clients. To figure out what are their next steps? Okay, we made a mistake. We made a huge error in judgment most of the time. So how do you move beyond that? How do you incorporate the voice of the victim, take responsibility for your actions, and at the same time get housing, which is almost impossible right now, get housing, get a job, get reestablished in the community? I ran a voter drive because Vermont is one of those few states that has always allowed inmates to vote. So I ran a voter drive with the League of Women Voters two years ago, and they actually went into the facility and signed people up to register to vote. I'm very politically active. I've run for office myself. In my little town here in Waterville, Vermont, I serve on four or five different commissions just in the community. So I'm also a registered minister with the Universal Church, and you know, that's sort of where we are right now. Right now the biggest need, if someone were to say, what do you need the most? Fundraising is an issue because I don't charge people and I say, if you got it, please donate it. If you don't have it, please consider if I need someone who may be able to donate. So I'm on disability right now, so. Okay, I see the time is up there. And I think this is, people who may not have heard about cureization before, you are being a having been a jailhouse lawyer as the sort of person that cure reaches out to. And I gather it kind of empowers while you're in prison so that you can learn the ropes and maybe Charlie can clarify that later on when we have a discussion. But thank you so much, but could you just add one more thing? You were in a corrections corporation of America facility. Now is that out of state of Vermont? And why are we sending our prisoners out of state? I think that's the stupidest thing and painful for families. As to why we're doing it, I agree with you, it's stupid. So I spent two years in a for-profit prison. I'm also part of an organization now that is abolishing working to abolish private prisons. So what they do in Vermont just very quickly is if you have a sentence greater than whatever number they decide to get, but if you have a sentence and you're gonna be in prison a long time, they generally will send long-term or life people who are in for life to different prisons right now, Mississippi, sorry. That's crazy. That doesn't apply to women though, it's only men. Yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh. The women prison in Vermont has had a lot of problems and they're actually just have funding to start another one. Okay, I saw Sandy, you have a question and then Cheryl will be speaking after that. Go ahead, Sandy. Oops, you're muted. I have a comment. The reason I left the room was that I just got a call from a prisoner in Montana. I get calls from prisoners often and one of the real problems that nobody faces, I don't think either in Vermont or any place else is the needs of the prisoners themselves. For instance, they usually have to buy their own stuff like toothpaste, like whatever products that they have to use. They don't have any money to do that, especially that's true, particularly in private prisons. They are limited in the phone calls that they can make. In other words, our prisons really, especially the private prisoners, prisons are more or less like concentration camps in a lot of ways because they have very little contact prisoners with the outside world. And so anything goes within prisons often. And private prisons in particular are supervised by the corporation itself, not much even by the state. In other words, this mass incarceration while it affects mainly a lot black and brown people, we have to remember it also affects white poor people, mainly males who have been discarded by society with long sentences, no access to the outside. I mean, it's an impossibly corrupt system. And I don't know, I have no idea how to bring that consciousness to our country or even to the world. We are the worst country in terms of mass incarcerations of prisons that I can think of almost. I mean, not really, I guess, but we have discarded many particularly young, white and black and brown men in these pits where they are cut off in the whole rest of the world, you can't call them. That's why I ran out of the room because he has to call me. I have no ability to call him. And it's all, by the way, on credit, you have to, he has to call me collect. I can't call him. You have to mail things to prisoners in a certain way or they don't get the mail. I think it's one of the most important problems that this country faces. Okay, we want Cheryl to speak. And she was on this call a couple of months ago. She's worked very hard. Cheryl Deer, she lives here in Burlington, has worked very hard to establish a kind of educational organization that works with the women in prison and helps them think through what kind of future they want to have outside of prison in terms of their jobs. So could you come on, Cheryl, for maybe five minutes, if you'd like? And then we'll have a general discussion. Yes, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, can't hear you, so. Oh, you know, I'm on the phone and I don't know how to do my Zoom on my phone. So I'm sorry about that. Oh, that's okay. So, yeah, I don't, I mean, everything that Timothy and Sandy said is absolutely true. It's a very punitive system. Unfortunately, the only thing that these people did wrong, which is criminal, is they were born into poverty. It's a generational poverty, it's generational incarceration, at least for the women. Everything is a profit center, as far as having to make phone calls or buy products at the commissary. The lockdown is just, it's brutal. It's brutal, how they have to stay in their cells. You mean during COVID or just regular? Well, during COVID, absolutely, they had to stay in their cells and they couldn't mix units. But I think just general, like what Timothy said, it's an international law if you spend 23 hours in a prison to get an hour of daylight. And these women are not getting that. And legislature said something to the Department of Corrections a couple of years ago, and they got a facility with fitness center, but they always say it's not open because they don't have the staff to staff it. So, they don't get to use it. Then legislature said they had to improve the nutrition. And so like, I don't know how many years ago, four years ago, they got a salad bar. It's never been filled. They get three to four simple carbs on their dishes. They get fruits and vegetables a few times a week. It's very common for the women to say they're pre-diabetic and they gain 70 to 100 pounds. The first three months they were in there, in prison. The two main issues with women in incarceration is they're not healthy and they don't have any job experience, training, or education. So, what our program, we bought our program, it's evidence informed from Oregon. And it changes, it's based on a transformative learning theory and it's written with learning strategies and methodologies for transformative learning. And what makes it transformative is that it's cognitively and psychologically. We change their attitude and belief system because you have to have a belief to be internally motivated to guide you to the next steps of action. And so we want them to vision a future rather than being victims and seeing this is their life that they've been given and handed down and they have to do. And they've all, the way I see it, they're entrepreneurs. They've either been prostituting their bodies or drugs. So, I mean, I don't know what else I can say. I can talk some more, but I don't know if it's interesting. No, it's fascinating and it's so wonderful you're doing that and women have recently graduated from your program. So it's, you're on a roll now, right? Yes, unfortunately, we got our contract with the Department of Corrections in October and then it's a 69 hour class and we got shut out for two months in January and February because of COVID. We went back in in March and then we were shut out for May and June. And we had a great momentum going. The women were coming to work, they were doing the rigor. They were, it was a lot of peer learning happening in the class. It's very important that we have this cohort. So they learn a lot of communication skills, negotiation with this group and they support each other in their decision making, whether it's in transitioning out of prison or it's when they start their new businesses. So we offer them a $500 monetary incentive. And I think that's huge. They stay in touch with me, where I've been hearing from Vermont Works for Women, they don't stay in touch with them. And I think it's the money actually. Hmm. Well, great. Well, thank you. We just have less than 15 minutes more to go. And I have a couple of questions for Tim, namely, and maybe others can answer it. The rumor is that our Republican governor wants to build a new prison. And what do you think of that? Would that be in the location of the current women's prison outside of Burlington? And also, Tim, how big is cure in this state? I mean, should we try to join your chapter and if so, do you need often and so on? Well, let me start by saying that the conditions at the women's prison in Chittenden or what they call the Correctional Center is off. I live there, so I know it's awful. It was awful in 2004 and it's just getting worse. So there has been a lot of talk and I believe it's done now, the deal's done. They're building another prison. Don't know the location for women. And I don't know the location where that's supposed to go or what they're gonna do with Chittenden, but those are other issues beyond my pay grade. I can speak a little bit to that, Tim. Okay, I just had a meeting at the prison on Friday with the director of women's programs and the two superintendents and it's a done deal. They're going to build a new prison and legislature gave them like a $500,000 to start finding an architect to design it. And they told me that it's gonna be for men and women. They don't know the location now, but it's gonna have a reentry unit for women and men. Okay. The more I know. That's what I heard from them on Friday. Now, I find this very interesting because I got involved in all of this maybe 20 years ago working against the juvenile jail. And that was when I met Fayhoney Knopf who was a wonderful abolition of prison activists. She lived in Brandon near Brandon. And I know Charlie knew her and she has written books on prison abolition. Could you say something about Fayhoney Knopf and her movement because I wasn't able to get a speaker from the Safer Society Foundation that Honey Knopf founded. But she's been an important force in our state for abolition. Yeah, so go ahead, Charlie. Sure, okay, sure. Well, she not only did that, but she also I went into the prison with her in Vermont and she was really ahead of her time on treatment for those who had persons who had committed sex offenses. And she was just a wonderful. And I think the moratorium on prison construction really came out of that back 25, 30 years ago when we first moved here to Washington, D.C. And that we would delay building more prisons until we have community corrections. And to bring that up to date, I was really struck by Al Gore, what he said the other day on national television that we'll never get the climate control if we continue to use fossil fuels. And I would say that we're never gonna address mass incarceration until we quit building jails in prisons. It just doesn't follow. That's all there is to it. Now, having said that as a principle, I don't know. I mean, you are on the scene. Your people are on the scene. And what Tim has said, how bad things are, but I don't know if the solution is to continue when there is overcrowding to build another prison. And that seems to be what Vermont is doing. And I think Huntington would agree with that, that the solution is not more prisons. In fact, that's what her book was. Instead of prisons, that should be community programs. Yeah, and Charlie, another question about the war on drugs. I mean, there started the glimmers of sanity coming into government that were incarcerating people for far too long for two very minor infringements. And so I believe in California, a number of prisoners were released. And I'm just wondering, has that been a national phenomenon or Tim, do you know whether some long-term, people long-term sentences were 20 years for having a marijuana joint? Have they been released here? I don't know much about that. Yeah, well, Sandy, do you have any thoughts? I don't think that was ever the case what Robin said that people went to jail for 20 years for a joint. No, I don't think that was ever so. There was something called three strikes and you're out. And if you were convicted of three felonies, the third one meant that you went to jail for a very long time. Maybe that's what she's referring to, but having one joint was never a felony, not in the state of Vermont. So I'm not exactly certain. All I know is that people are still going to jail for very long amounts of time and they are, and I can't even, how can you comment on a society that locks people up for a long amount of time and also still has the death penalty? How can you even talk about having a decent society when that is the case and that those incarceration rates and the death penalty affects black and brown men, mainly the long sentences and the long terms in jail, but also so does the death penalty and that it's really, okay, so this is my final pitch. People in this country have no understanding of the law. They have no understanding of the law. They have no understanding of the prison system. They don't, honestly, as some of you know, on last Wednesday night, we have a very important election here in Chittenden County tomorrow where a reform prosecutor is running for her life against a guy that has received total support from the police union. That's Sarah Kenny, who was the reformer, Sarah George, excuse me, who was the reform prosecutor, a very close friend with Chesa Boudin out in San Francisco. He was also perceived as a reform prosecutor like Sarah. And he was just recalled. I'm very worried that Sarah herself is a reform prosecutor, is interested in ending mass incarceration. I think she's gonna be defeated tomorrow. Right now, I'm so afraid too. Yes, Odeo, you have your hand raised, please. I want to say that in Ann Arbor, we have a very strong program of restorative justice that is official and running on with Judge Timothy O'Connor. Maybe we could interview him or some of the people that work with him. Yes, good. I mean, you could be in charge of a session of this group next month or something. It's good to bring this together and learn what's happening. I can't do it until October. Robin, could I make one final comment because I'm going off the court in like three minutes? And that is, I think that the proper role of one of the proper roles of wealth, one of the proper roles of the Caroline Fund is to educate about the law. I mean, I'm so surprised that again, this little group though I want to call something like People's Law School presented Sarah George simply on her role. What was the prosecutor's role within the judicial system? Nobody knows what a prosecutor even is or does or what a defense attorney does. That's, I think that the key to everything almost is first the empowerment of women and girls throughout the world. And secondly, to educate, especially here in the United States about the law and about public affairs, it's not been done. Thank you, thank you. I see we just have a few minutes more, Tim. And then Teresa, go ahead, Tim. So there was a second part of that. First of all, Sandy is an amazing person. I know her legislative work. I've seen her work in the community. She does a lot, but that's not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is if you know people in Vermont who are incarcerated or family members of people who are incarcerated that need assistance sort of navigating this crazy process, I am taking anyone who's interested in coming and talking to me. So thank you. All right. Thank you. Teresa. Well, just a couple of announcements. And forgive me, I have a very unstable connection. So it helps to keep my camera off. But the one thing we need to do before we close is to choose which state is going to be covering in September. We always meet on the second Monday of each month. So I believe that maybe September 12. I'm not sure. But the second Monday if somebody can check. So we have Michigan in the house. We have Arizona in the house. And we have Kentucky in the house. And I would prevail upon. Oh, deal. Because Michigan is one of those big states. With big cities and lots of incarceration. So what we're asking. Oh, deal is for people to do what Robin did today. And you can do it any way you want. But what we really want to know is what's happening in your state in terms of the numbers of incarcerated. So will you be around. I can do it in October, not in September. You can do it in October. Okay, that's perfect. Because I just remembered the other announcement is that we have a webinar on Palestine and Lebanon, what is to be done. And the date will likely be the 13. We're looking at the 12 for the 13. But I'm pretty sure it's going to be on the 13, because all of the speakers are confirmed for either day. But we needed to be on the 13 so that's going to be an international webinar with people speaking from Palestine, Lebanon, Norway is going to be great. And I know you'll hear more about it. I cannot be on it because I have so sure he's sorry. Yeah, I know you told us you're just such a busy woman being in France all this time I said who can afford to stay in France for weeks. But you have family there I guess. Yes, I'm staying with a family place. Well that is wonderful. Yes, all I have, we know when the next meeting is George will send out the information. But I want to prevail upon the Tucson branch or our long time will sister in Kentucky to see if they will be willing to take the next meeting on the 12. I'm sorry. My family connection I have with prison right now is I had a friend whose husband was sentenced to an extremely long sentence for growing marijuana when he had a permission from California to grow it. And he was arrested in Kentucky she lived with me and when he was released he lived with me for a while too. But I'm starting a branch here. I'm pretty, pretty full up with doing that and I'm uninformed about prison reform. Teresa I'd like to jump in here and really for solving your problem. Thank the people who have come on and especially Charlie and Tim and because okay Tim works in what is called personal assistance to individuals but what are we doing in the state to try to make sure that the commissioner of prisons become is a is a progressive person that he is he or she you know in other words we need to have some issues that we can work on together so I urge everyone to join cure. I want to put the label the name or address or something in the mail and or in the in the chat. What what do you propose Charlie. So that would be very good. What I could do Robin if you wanted to send me the email. The names and the email addresses of the people here. We do a weekly report. And we don't overdo it. We get so many emails but a weekly report on prison reform. But that's coming out of Congress. And of course I think Tim would be coming out with a newsletter that he could send to particularly those people in Vermont that are on the call. Is there a way that you could send me there the emails. I just saved my chat and whatever I think I can save it. Okay and just forward it and I'll put it on. It's this male champ idea you didn't cost anything up to 2000. 10,000 a month emails. So we send once a week less than 2000. Also, Robin since we're coming up on our hard stop at three. George and I will co-facilitate for next month. So we're going to have the 12 and one of our big issues is ending the death penalty. I know you don't have a death penalty in Vermont, but we got a death penalty big time here in Georgia. They just killed someone last week. And the death penalty is bad in Alabama. So we'll probably have a speaker on the death penalty. So we're going to have a speaker on the death penalty here in Georgia or either in North Carolina or both. Because those are still death penalty states. So George and I will co-facilitate next meeting. Okay, wonderful. That sounds good. And that should bring some Vermonters in because there, there are some people who are urging that we should have the death penalty here. Oh no. I will send the recording when it's ready. Robin, are you ready to adjourn? Yes, I am. And thank you everyone for taking part. And I hope we'll be in touch again soon. Robin, this was absolutely wonderful, Robin. We learned a lot. Thank you so much for organizing. It's Robin. It's been great. It's been great. All right. Take care, everyone. Thank you. Bye.