 Great. Thanks for tuning in everyone. So we are going to get started. So welcome to the third discussion of our community conversation series for this year, listening to differing perspectives, the power of symbolism. Tonight will consist of exploring the mental models of framing perspectives and the importance of listening and the impact symbols have on people. I'm Jill Harvey, the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Division Director for the town. And I'll be joined by a little co-facilitating by Lence Michelle of Powerful Pathways, who will be popping in a little bit later on. But first we're going to go over some of the housekeeping and the ground rules and expectations for the night before I introduce our guests. So right now we are making sure that the captioning is all set, but typically at the bottom there should be a CC block that you can click to provide that. Another question that was asked is will we be able to see other participants you won't see participants visually, but part of what we'll be doing tonight is trying to make this session a bit more engaging so as we're going through it and having the discussion there will be some rules that will be launched. And as a part of that, a participation form was included as part of the registration for this if you filled it out. That's wonderful. If you didn't, you'll still have the opportunity to participate tonight. So what we'll be doing is looking at the options that you should have at the bottom of your zoom. So in addition to Q&A and chat, which you now see is open. We asked that the Q&A be used for specific questions. So if you have questions that you'd like to have addressed during the conversation, we'll be entering them there and filling them to our panelists. Additionally, there is a raise hand option. The way that will work is if you are looking to share your perspective or would like to be a part of the conversation, we ask you to raise your hand as we're going through different symbols and images and asking questions. And us on the panel, we will be calling on folks to be able to participate. So if your hand is raised, I'll be keeping an eye on that. And you will have the option to talk and be promoted to a panelist to join us on screen to share your perspective as well. So to answer that question, it's a little tough because you won't necessarily see everyone but if you would like to volunteer and do want to engage in this conversation, then you will have that opportunity and you will be promoted to be a panelist to join the discussion and then back to the audience. So bear with us because this is the first time we're doing this. So I'm really excited to try and make it a bit more engaging. And I am just seeing now I think we are having an issue with the captioning option. So I do have someone working on that right now. So, again, sorry about that bear with us, we're trying to get that working but once it is available, I will let you know and I can direct you to where that button will be. In the meantime, I can also start to go over the ground rules that we have. So let me just pull those up because we do do these normally. And let me see. Okay, so for the ground rules, we all have the responsibility to respect and build on the strength that diversity provides. We will engage in polite constructive productive dialogue and feedback. We will respectfully disagree with each other. Unless you are designated representative of an organization opinions are considered your own. And when sharing a question, please be short and to the point. And for this session it's a little different because it's all about perspectives as well so we do want to allow time to hear from as many folks as possible. And we do want to use this moment in space to take some time to allow for self reflection. Again, as with all of these community conversations we do touch upon some difficult topics and it is a lot to take in and sometimes you just need to take that time in space to really self reflect and reflect on what others are saying. And as always make sure you're taking deep breaths, because some of the content is heavy so we want to remind folks to breathe I need to run myself to breathe it's been a struggle today. But reminding yourself to take deep breaths is what we're here to do. So, I'm going to stop sharing, and I'm going to let me see. And now that we've gone over the ground rules. I want to introduce our guests. So, we have with us, Cynthia deal. Did I did I say your last name correct. Okay. Who joined the civil rights team at Facebook as their director and associate general counsel this past March, and she focuses on civil rights specifically the intersection of law enforcement hate crimes investigations and outreach. So, I think in Facebook Cynthia served as the director of civil rights reform at the Matthew Shepherd Foundation for four years and let their national hate crime enforcement training program for law enforcement professors and prosecutors. I'm going to let Cynthia share a little bit more about herself. And I'll do that now, and then we'll pass it over to Brad, and then I'm going to share a bit more about one of our other guests who's going to join us in a little bit. Thank you, Barbie I appreciate the introduction and it is quite the pleasure to join everyone this evening so hello everyone. In addition to what she said I also spent 22 years as a special agent with the FBI, focused exclusively on the civil rights program. And that encompasses hate crimes and police brutality and misconduct in the trafficking as well. And we try adult life to these issues of trying to figure them out. Brett and I have worked together for a number of years and as we say, we, we live in this space of hate, and we just, we try to figure it out we try to bring groups together groups that collaborating and coordinating. And we try to make communities safer. That's really what we've both have been focused on I think, while we were in law enforcement and then after we have left to, to try to still move the needle regarding hate crimes and community engagement. So I also spent a good number of time in my career working with victims of hate crime and also just crime victims in general. I was the FBI's lead agent after 911 helping the victims in New York, following the terrorist attack, and I also helped the victims in Boston after the marathon bombing. So I spent a lot of time working in the space working with victims and communities and law enforcement civil rights advocacy groups to just try to create some understanding, share some stories and hopefully make some things safer and more welcoming and inclusive. Great. Thank you Cynthia. And next we also have Fred person with us, who's retired from full time paid employment with the Metropolitan Police Department in Washington DC. Fred is retired in the state of 2020 is retired, but he does remain with the agency as a reserve police officer, part time, and he currently works with agencies and organizations whose missions. He believes are essential to improving policing and society with more than 25 years experience in local state and federal law enforcement. He is an internationally recognized leader who is champion award winning innovations in multiple areas from programs to improve police service to underserved communities and protect victims of domestic violence to ensuring essential services to the families of officers injured and killed in the line of duty. And that's a little brief, but I'm going to pass it over to Brett to tell us more about himself. Thanks Jill it's good to see you again and thank you for organizing this a little my friend Cynthia. Let me start off by giving all of you greetings I'm not far away actually right now I'm actually at the tip of Cape Cod province town so right here in the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts but I start off by saying 10 words that none of you have ever wanted to hear. I'm from Washington and I'm here to help you. I literally am from Washington DC was born and raised in the nation's capital and spent, as Jill said, 27 years with Metropolitan Police Department which is the main police agency in the nation's capital. That is not primarily why I'm here though. I'm primarily here as Cynthia talked about because of my work. Most of my career dealing in underserved marginalized communities, investigating responding to and help prosecute bias early crimes, and then also consulting around the world members of law enforcement agencies to try and deal with all the contemporary issues that I have no doubt that you're talking about in Arlington that we're talking about law enforcement as law enforcement leaders and rank and file members. And I am very much looking forward to this because what what I have tried to do my entire career and I know Cynthia shares this passion with me is go places that police officers tend not to go. Sometimes make us uncomfortable, whether it be surrounding ourselves with a crowd of people that may not share the same beliefs or or ideas that we do, or people that are maybe angry with us and have questions or critical of our profession, but also putting myself in in the shoes of other people and trying to look at those perspectives. I have a lot a lot to me in my career, just to share with you very personally. As you look at me right now you probably make many assumptions about me as a as a human being and as a police officer. And, you know, within the four corners of the screen, I probably look like an older bald white guy to go. Well, I actually wear a lot of hats and I'm a member of many different communities that I'm sure at some point will come out during this conversation. But what it has allowed me to do throughout my career, personally, and also help police officers all over the world including my agency is help them sometimes put the shoes on that other people walk in and understand their perspectives. Sometimes it's really hard as a police officer sometimes to protect a group of people that, if they knew who I really was behind that uniform and that badge, they might not like me or might in fact actually be violent towards me. But I know what my role is and I know what I swore at both to do which is protect and serve the Constitution and the citizens the community where I serve. So that's kind of where I wanted to start with the foundation and the welcome and say hello and encourage all of you to, most importantly tonight, listen, listen to the perspectives of each other because where I think we are right now in the world as a nation. And it sounds like right there in Arlington is sometimes we're all very, very, we find it very, very important that our perspective is heard. But we oftentimes don't give the opportunity to listen to others and their perspective doesn't mean we have to agree with them it doesn't even mean in the end we have to like it. Sometimes it gives us a frame of reference to understand that where we assume someone's coming from their perspective may not actually be where they're coming from. So I'm looking forward to it. Thanks, Joe. Great. Thank you for that. And I'm just going to share a little bit about another panelist who's going to be joining us a few minutes late probably closer to 730. But his name is a crew in he is the current president of the Mystic Valley NAACP branch, and he's also a financial services professional with JP Morgan and Chase, and within their corporate and investment fake. He's a graduate of Boston Colleges Carol School of Management with a Bachelor of Science in Management and a concentration in finance and marketing, but saying has been with the NAACP and has been the president since January of 2017. The Mystic Valley area branch has also served more than Boston suburban communities so Arlington is a part of that for the last 40 years in the fight to promote social economic educational and political equity for all so Dan will be joining us shortly. But I think from there we're going to get started and so with that. I'm going to just kind of set the context for something that I touched upon but we're going to discuss what framing is before we start to get into the topics around different symbols and images that we're going to discuss. So we'll have Christina pull that slide up. And so what is framing. So frames are mental structures that shape the way we see the world. And as a result they shape the goals that we seek the plans we make the way we act the way we respond to things. So we think about outcomes and in turn frames also shape our social policies and all of the institutions that actually carry out our policies. So all of our lived experiences shape the judgments that we make every single day, and our families are our families of origin the identities we carry the discussions we have like here today. And how we can affect how we start to categorize and make associations of people and places and things, and how we then fill in the gaps with what we think we know. So based off of something that I might have experienced once before, I'm going to make that assumption moving forward that this is how it's always going to be or what to expect, but really the main point of what we're trying to do here today is here is to share ideas and share some different ideas and views, and so that we can start to fill in those gaps a little bit differently. And I don't know if Brett or Cynthia if you have anything to add to that of those mental models or that context for us, and we can bring down that slide. Well, I was just wanted to add that one of the things that I will be doing is as as we share perspectives from group hopefully and from my fellow panelists. If there's a perspective that I'm aware of and I know Cynthia is going to do the same thing on a particular image that that may or may not be our perspective right, but that we're aware of that perspective with the history behind it. So we're going to go ahead and share that one kind of as a disclaimer to let everyone understand that that my role here is not to express my personal beliefs that what I'm going to be doing in my vast experience dealing with images, particularly images of and prejudice and bias, giving a historical perspective and also kind of trying to give point counterpoint to arguments as to, are these images appropriate are the inappropriate, and what's the history behind. So I just wanted to add that. Thank you. And I think with that as well so I probably will join in. And I know Alessa who's working in the background will may join in as well. And this will also be the opportunity I think for folks if you have questions or if there's different opportunities that you do want to participate. So make use of the Q&A box, make use of the raise hand option. And what we're going to be doing as well as actually doing some polls as we start to move along in this discussion. So I just want to show you if we can pull up the slide with the number scale. I'll explain how this will work for all of the topics that we're going to go through. When that comes out, I'll explain what that will be like and where you can find the options for that. So what we'll be doing is going through some different images and symbols, and with that, and for each one will be launching a poll, so you'll see a little box pop up on the screen. And then it'll ask a question, and it'll have numbers so based off of the image that you're seeing audience members, we would like you to remember these images that also be smaller on the side so you don't forget them. But to just reflect on what your reaction is to that image and enter it in the poll so you'll see it pop up. Once we have it almost fully populated. And share that out so everyone can see the result that will be anonymous so feel free to, you know, be honest with the choices that you do make, and we will go through those and interweave those into the discussion as well. So are we ready to hop into the first image. All right. So, everyone should see the first image which is puppy with you he is sentimental. So, take this one in and kind of let that marinate for a little bit. And I think we'll launch the first poll for this one. And so everyone should see a box. And I do see okay, folks are seeing it. So, we're filling up. And it's almost about 82% of folks who are tuning in participating. So I think we'll give it maybe a few more seconds and then I'll end the poll and I'll share with you all what those results were. One of the questions how many people I do believe right now we've got 36 folks. So we will end this poll and share. Okay, everyone see those results. Pretty neutral. Yeah, pretty neutral. I believe that's what they call in statistics of bell curve, which since I flunked statistics four times is about the only statistical information I know. I think that that is kind of clear. I mean, for me, not until the last, I'd say few years that I become more cognizant of some of the issues that were really presented by Pepe Le Pew. I don't know if right if you want to kick this one off. Sure. So, we chose to chose this particular image to start off with, because we thought this would be a nice way to ease us into kind of how images have changed. I can't see all of you right now so I don't know what our age spread is on this call, but I can tell you that I wasn't alive with Pepe Le Pew was first illustrated and came on television as a cartoon. It was 1945 just a, you know, World War Two era. And for anyone that is not familiar with Pepe Le Pew and maybe that's why you went with neutral because you just had no feelings either way. The character Pepe Le Pew and an entire cartoon centers around he as a male skunk pursuing very aggressively a female. And I mean, pursuing using today's standards, we're talking stalking, we're talking sexual harassment, and depending on your jurisdictions definitions by most definitions, criminal assault, sexual abuse by touching force kissing and things of that nature. And so here is here is a cartoon character right something that a child might see even today and think oh look at the cute skunk or they might think it's a cat. And I think that's pretty cute and funny. And even back in the 1940s when this first came out. And I'm sure that that was what the belief was that this was purely innocent and it was sort of a fun kind of storyline of his constant efforts to find his true love and and to convince her to love him back. And when we look back now with the lenses that we now we're understanding how many women, not just women but also men fall victim to stalking, sexual abuse, harassment, and other unwanted advances. This cartoon has a completely different slant on it now. And it's one that many people think is highly inappropriate to be on any airway, we're in public in any way today. So it's just one one kind of image that we talked talked about when we were preparing for this that we thought kind of be an easy way to ease into this with a cartoon character. And maybe at this point, Cynthia, if there's anything you'd like to add I'll turn it over to you but I'd like to know is, if there's anybody out there that has any comment or questions about the pepula pew cartoon and maybe now understanding the background if their perspectives change I think we're happy to see you type something in chat, ask you to raise your hand. If maybe you have a different perspective on it. Well Jill looks at the, at the chat I would add one I think very obvious point which is, we see this in TV shows, comic books, movies. I'm reminded of many sitcoms from the 70s and 80s that now looking back are just very inappropriate and how they frame and show what at the time was courting or dating. And now it's completely inappropriate. So it's, it's a good example I think just really broadly about how images change over time where they, I don't think that pepula pew was designed to be a harasser or a stalker or someone who's going to commit a crime. I'm hoping that it was designed to be innocent and sweet and funny. But it's not funny anymore. I saw a comment here that as a kid that it looks like and was commenting as a kid. She had a T shirt with an image as an eight year old in the 70s. Good to see somebody else was a little younger than me in the 70s there, and had no idea. And you're not alone. One of my nieces who was born in the 2000s actually saw a pepula pew image and wanted it because she loved the color purple. And she also thought skunks were adorable. And my sister does say no I don't want you wearing that because my sister portion of the history being of my age. So it's really interesting that that how that perspective has changed and you're right how a child could look at that. And it looks like a cute little skunk smile and flowers and everything, but not understanding the backstory. I also saw the comment there about the in light of what's going on in the state of New York right with Governor Cuomo. Yeah, I mean this is this is really topic du jour, if you will, when it comes to one of our biggest societal issues. We'll get into discussions of race a little later on here but we're talking about, you know, any quality with regard to gender right when we're talking about sexual abuse harassment inappropriate touching inappropriate comments. And pepula pepula pew check all those boxes and then some, by the way, he, he was a French character, and somebody mentioned about the pursuing it was actually a cat not a skunk thank you for correcting me. And, and all of that just goes into just kind of how at the time seem completely innocent entertaining, and then time has changed that. There would be people now that look back at nostalgic Lee and think, Well, why would you ever cancel the culture right of pepula pew. That's not what they were talking about there. We're talking about fun cartoons for kids. That's a perspective some people have. You know, Rebecca had raised her hand so I was going to call on her to share her comments. Bring it on Rebecca. You should be able to talk. I think I can talk. Okay, great. So yes, I was just recollecting from my childhood that he's pursuing a cat who he thinks is a skunk. So, this sort of cross animal breed was that like code for inappropriate relationships miscegenation, and then growing up in New England, where people of French Canadian heritage have often been made fun of with their culture. The representation of him has this speaking, oddly, Franklish, also could be insulting. And, and yes, potentially this is all innocent has somebody commented, I just remember the character is cute, but that isn't necessarily how everyone observed this cartoon then or even more so now. Yeah, thank thank you so much for that comment and I think you really, I think you encapsulated why we wanted to use this first because I think here we have something that I think we would all agree that back in the day. I don't attribute any now intent to the creator of the, the artists that created this and the people that produced it, but certainly over time, they had to become aware of those concerns. And it's taken a long time and let's face it in some environments, we still are struggling to make sure that those types of assumptions and stereotypes and, you know, things like that, don't continue to be reinforced in our society, or something is as accessible to very vulnerable right now kids, this was targeting children, their cartoons. It's really kind of scary to think that that still goes on in some ways. We've got a few other comments in the chat. Kerry, Kerry's comment about the fact that it basically reinforced stereotypes of male female behavior right that the male was going to be the aggressive one pursuing the female and the female would have to fight him off, and protect her virtue if you will right responsibility to do that, and that he was, he was, well in this case, all French, all American here. He was pursuing the girl. Looking back, man, did that reinforce some stereotypes that we definitely don't want to teach our young people today right. Should we go on to the next image. Yes, and before we do that I just want to make note that they did join us so we've got our panel full. Let's go on to the next image and same thing, I launched a poll before we dive into the conversation but again, feel free to use the chat, if you have specific questions put them in the Q&A and if you are looking to talk and share perspective just raise your hand and we'll pick on you. So I need to launch the poll. Does anyone see that now I think someone had a few issues beforehand. We're close to everyone. Voting if you don't know the image. That's also okay. We will end it here. See. See the results. You know, I think it had gotten cut off before, but I just want to make sure everyone can see so no one gave it a four or five. So it's clear that this group runs from neutral and then more towards the, having some sort of a negative or unhappy view of that image, which is, you know, a change from to right, we had more neutral there where this is definitely skewed towards that area of discontent or unhappiness with the image. I want to welcome Zane, she didn't get a chance to say hello to wanted to say hi and see if he wants to pipe in on this one or I'm, I'm happy to take the lead on this one as well. Sure. Thank you, Brett. Thanks for having me everyone. I'm glad to be here. So candidly, you'll brief me just before this panel. I had no idea personally of any negative connotation for this meme character. One of the only instances I see this meme Canada is just like the crying Michael Jordan meme whenever like a athlete or someone in sports messes something up. I see it put on like a T shirt or put on the person's head. So that's the only recognition I've had of it. I'm not prior to this. I was not personally aware of the negatives. Well, Zane, since you are probably not the only one, let me just share with everybody in case not everyone on the call is familiar with. This is Peppy the frog Peppy the frog was a cartoon character that was created and it was been popular on the internet for quite some time. However, over the last five plus years. The image has been basically hijacked from a cute little cartoon character. A GIF I guess is what you call it on the internet by members of the alt right by white supremacist groups and groups that see people of color marginalized communities as inferior. And this image is oftentimes used put over the faces of African Americans or other people of color. To make them look different. And the implication is all of the things you see are stereotypes of those those groups. And, you know, here we have again a cartoon character right something that was created initially probably to make people smile. And from what it was originally created for now is being used in ways cause harm to send messages of hatred bias prejudice in some ways. And the view of it, I can tell from this group is now decidedly not good right it is not on the positive side at all. And I would imagine that those that is neutral folks, probably many of them just had never heard what it represented. I'll be very honest with you. The first time as a police officer I was called to what we call it a defacing public property which is when somebody, you know spray paint or puts graffiti on a public space. And it was an image of pepping the frog that was placed over the face of Harriet Tubman at an elementary school. And it was just a sticker that was placed over her face. And my initial thought was, Oh, that's kind of cute one of the kids must have put their sticker over top of that. And it wasn't until the African American vice principal came up to me and said, Yeah, officer I don't think you understand what that image actually means and placing it over her face, particularly what what that means to us. And I very quickly did some research and found out wow, my perspective on what that was was completely different than other people who were much more aware of its history. Do we have some discussion here or any comments or questions here. Yeah, I was going to say that, and if anyone has seen this before, or hasn't or has a view, definitely chime in. Okay, so I'm saying they can't see choices for five, and they moved up on the screen. So for, um, I see that Miriam made that comment Miriam for me, when I move my cursor off of my screen, the toolbar disappears, and I can see it just fine. So maybe try that to move your cursor off the screen so that the action bar at the bottom disappears for you. Hey, I'm wondering if Janice would be willing to come off mute Janice. I'd love to ask you a question if you wanted to engage me in just a second. Yeah, Inviter to come off mute great. Can you hear me Janice tested out there. I can hear you quite clearly can you hear me. Absolutely and thanks. Thanks for your comment I had a question. What was it that made your gut clench. What was it about the image knowing nothing about it. What was it that just viscerally you react to. Um, I was when I was typing my comment, I was trying to figure out what it was that hit me. I think I'm not really sure but the expression on the face to me is pain. The caricature or the character is in pain. I'm not sure what gives me that idea but that's what hit me. And I felt that it was some that it was inherently racist. That's the only thing that I can think of. It gave me a very different feeling than the peppy lapieu cartoon. Gotcha so your visceral reaction was it looks a bit menacing painful. And there were characteristics about the face that jumped out at you as as screaming racism. Yes, I wouldn't say menacing. I had the feeling of menacing I got the feeling of pain. Gotcha, and racism racist. Wonder if anybody else picked up on anything specifically from the image that struck them as potentially a nod towards racial inequality racist and turn this into a racist image of some way. I saw a comment from Lynette. I'm not sure if she wants to elaborate on that. And thank you for sharing. While she while you're while you're getting her up there. Christopher mentioned specifically that the lips, the eyes which Christopher I'm going to speak for you I'm assuming the bulging eyes. And almost a bit of a blank stare there. And just the general sadness, which was also mentioned by Janice. I think she'd like to. Hi. Can you hear me. Yes. Um, yeah, are they the image looks angry to me and gives off an energy that feels negative and dangerous. And yeah and and that character that the lips and the eyes are, you know, a caricature of, of, of African Americans I mean and it just looked like such an insulting gross unpleasant image. And that I then I stopped thinking about well who would create such an image. Like what was this. Why was this created and and the the anger that it seems that there seems to be to me it's it's got rage in it. And I just want to acknowledge something that I don't even know if you realize happened you were when you were struggling almost to find some words to describe your reaction when you talked about the lips and who they made you think of. It's a painful thought to realize that because of society and many of the images that have been, you know, perpetuated over and over again, that we think of these things with with that's why it's called implicit bias right you see an image and implicitly your mind goes to a certain place it goes to a certain type of person, a certain environment certain actions. And that's why images like this are just so insidious and dangerous. Thank you for sharing Lynette. Yeah. Thanks. I think one of the other comments that had come through was centered around the oversized lips being used as a racist stereotype so that was seen and clear and folks were commenting on that. I don't know if anyone else wanted to share anything before I went on to the next one. I imagine if your son, daughter, granddaughter grandson came home and had this sticker on their lunch pail, right, that you know one of the other kids was passing out stickers with this image. What, you know, and your child probably wouldn't know anything other than it looks like a frog. You know, that's a conversation nobody wants to have. Should we go to the next image. Yeah. Okay, now we're going someplace. See how we used we used in this one didn't yet. Didn't wait. Okay, so let me launch the poll. Okay, so it's launched. And this question goes directly out to you Mary and can you see all of the options. Because I want to make sure that you that everyone can see everything. Do we see the scale. One through five, one is five is yeah. Okay, you can't see it. Okay, so let's see. Let me see. I'm going to chat you privately to see how we can fix this. We'll give folks a couple more seconds to complete the poll of speaker covers for five. Okay, let me see this changes. Did moving that help Miriam and try it I'm sorry. I'm going to end this poll and share these results. And see those. Look at that. We move from a fairly neutral image to one that was skewing towards the emotions that are not happy ones to now one that is decidedly that kind of red angry looking emoji there. So, I'm wondering if anybody has a family in the south, who might have a different perspective and may not want to share. It's not your perspective, but might want to share the perspective of someone they know, and love, who sees this image in in slightly negative way. They may not do it as a positive, but but see it as something less than offensive. I can start Brett. I am coming to you from Knoxville, Tennessee. I live in the south. I've lived here for about eight years now with my family. And this is not an uncommon site. They're on vehicles. They're proudly displayed in flying high in people's yards. The stickers are not rare to find just out and about in the state. It seems to me this is just a personal opinion and a little evidence but it seems more prevalent and not in the cities of Tennessee but more in the rural areas. But it won't take you long when you drive through Tennessee for sure and I'm sure other southern states to see Confederate flags displayed displayed very proudly and other similar paraphernalia and ephemeral that's displayed on properties. The folks that I've spoken to that fly the Confederate flag. Never ever have I heard someone say anything geared towards the racist connotation of the flag it's always about their pride in being from the south. It's their pride in their ancestry. Back generations, grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents who lived and worked in the south. It's always couched in very much of a proud to be a southerner attitude. I've never heard someone just outwardly say I'm racist that's why I'm flying this flag. It is disgusting. I am a Mexican Latina by ethnicity and also a proud member of the LGBTQ community and even just seeing this on the screen is foul and disgusting and quite the trigger. A little perspective to start the discussion but I welcome the thoughts from others. I'll jump in on that Cynthia. Thank you for sharing your perspective. Me being you know Massachusetts resident now born and raised in New Jersey. What you say about Tennessee does not just apply to Tennessee. The country side of New Jersey the countryside of Massachusetts the countryside of New Hampshire is the same. It's the same pattern in most of the country you know the urban metropolis is a one way the country is the other. And I've always heard the same types of stuff you know Southern pride rah rah rah but in all honesty that opinion is just bad. It's misinformed it's ignorant it's misguided. It's the same thing how some people whenever an African American person gets you know be murdered by the police. It's always you know oh what he didn't listen to police officer. What was the report card in eighth grade science that you're going to see that they ever steal candy from candy store like it's always you know it's misdirected. It opinions grounded ignorance like this is a symbol of hate that wasn't more prevalent until you know the civil rights era. This symbolizes losing a civil war. Imagine you know Nazi Germany you know rah rah this is our family who was Nazi troops we want to you know we want to honor our fallen soldiers like it's just not a good opinion. It symbolizes racism slavery it symbolizes you know to African Americans and other minorities that you are not welcome we don't like you we don't want you here. That's what this symbol does and triggers to me personally. It's interesting you said that saying because for those of you who are not old enough to remember there was a TV show I believe it started in the late 70s called Dukes of hazard. And I see Zane and Cynthia smiling Jill you're clearly far too young to remember that show. But this show glorified the whole notion of this being a symbol of pride. And and it stayed on a major network and was a very popular show throughout the United States. To the extent I grew up in Washington D.C. I was a minority where I grew up. Most of my peers and loved ones were African American. I had friends African American boys and girls who had lunchboxes with the Confederate flag on it because they had Dukes of hazard lunchboxes. And I think to myself now looking back how how this image right. They've tried to normalize it they've tried to make it into some something that was not its intent to begin with it was representing a nation that declared themselves that wanted to overthrow what the United States. You know was was about which was getting rid of slavery at that point. And thank you Janice for your your commentary on whether or not it was good watching for the Dukes of hazard there. We'll give it a thumbs down the Cisco neighbor thumbs down from Janice there. So as the love vote grant says. I would be interested to hear what type of emotion Zane Zane shared obviously I think the painful feeling right just that that visceral reaction of what that evokes thoughts about you and your race. Other people on this call have any comments or emotions. Definitely feel free to use the chat or raise your hand. It's great for folks maybe to decide they want to talk. I mean for me, this image is. It's frightening, and it's when I do see it. I actually am struck with fear, whether it's driving and it's in someone's yard, or on a car bumper sticker in front of me. It's really terrifying because you just have no idea what that person is thinking. Whether it's there full of pride or if they don't want to see you on the street. So Jill I'm going to go there. I want to see if I can push the envelope here you mentioned a bumper sticker on a car. We'll take it to some other city in America we won't put it in Arlington but you see parked in the police department's parking lot, a vehicle parked in police parking only a private vehicle. And on the bumper is the Confederate flag or Dixieland praise Dixieland the South will rise again. What does that make you feel about who drives that car and where they may work. I feel like I should get out of dodge. That I am not going to be protected by the person who owns that car. I saw an officer. He said if it was parked at a police station or someone who was maybe there, maybe just a resident, I don't know, but I certainly would feel like I would have the opposite direction and not look back. I saw Zane nodding his head similar feelings in. Absolutely I've always kind of ran from this image on my life like I've never felt like I was invited to like a NASCAR event like I wouldn't feel comfortable. If I seen someone on someone's house I wasn't going there. I seen the flag at a state fair in Pennsylvania before I want to leave I'm like I don't even want to look at anything here I want to go like take me far away from here. It's interesting though you mentioned. I'm sorry saying go ahead I didn't mean to go ahead. Yeah, it's just a similar to a jealousy it's always been a symbol I got to go like I'm not welcome. I got to get as far away from here as possible. Yeah, not sure if everybody's aware of NASCAR is actually one of the most popular sports in the United States. And it was only recently was it two years ago Cynthia that they decided that NASCAR would not allow the Confederate flag image to fly at any of their events again. And they suffered. Was it just last year Zane thank you after George Floyd. Yeah, they suffered tremendous backlash from many in the NASCAR community. It's still alive. This mindset is still alive. Yet, I would imagine if we had daughters of the Confederacy represented on this call right now, they would likely speak. I want to remind you, I'm representing the opinion and they perhaps the thoughts of the of the other side of this. So to speak, but I would imagine that there are members of daughters of the, you know, the Confederacy or people who do Civil War reenactments who feel very strongly that this history needs to be kept alive that that the sacrifice of the south to fight for their country and for their heritage is important and to ban this image is is hateful in and of itself it's a racing a group of people that existed within the United States. Whether or not we agree with that. I would imagine there are people that would say I'm not racist it has nothing to do with slavery I saw that comment here by the way. Is that Melissa, there are people who still deny the Civil War was about slavery to the scenes of January 6. Yeah, well there are there are and some of them. I won't I won't make any personal commentary on judge saw it what I'll say is those perspectives exist. I want to just comment on something that Martha put in the chat. She says it as an Asian person she finds that road rage is very scary and she assumes that if she sees a flag like this the person who owns that flag or who's displaying that flag, possibly has a weapon and she feels less safe. I completely agree with you, I completely agree with you and especially now where we see so many states that are open carry open carry laws that have been passed saying you want to buy a gun and carry it. Without a license without training. I think Texas is passing a statute that's that says just that it's that's very frightening to just not be sure when you're out in public, who is armed and who's not and if they're displaying racist behavior or they're going to respond to comments or anti ethnic comments, anti LGBT comments, and you are part of that marginalized group, or you are an ally of one of those groups. It's, it's hard to know how to respond because you don't know if the person is going to respond violently, or not so I'm with you. By the way, it's interesting that also to me kind of kind of how this leaves it way into modern day politics right but that the south is is viewed largely as a more conservative stronghold politically, leaning towards the Republican Party. Um, yet, back, not too long ago, some of us were alive back then, there was actually a section segment of the Democratic Party, called the Dixie crats. They were segregationists within the Democratic Party. And so this this issue while while it certainly now is fairly divided among political lines has actually kind of flip flopped over the years in a way that some people were on one side of the issue and now we're on the other side of the issue. It's very interesting. Robin added a comment as well. That you feel that way too on the road especially since they have progressive political stickers on their bumper stickers so it also kind of highlights many people feeling that most sense of fear. And Alensa key interesting how history or lack of knowledge of history plays a role in our perceptions. Yeah, I would also say culture, your upbringing, you know, who you were exposed to, right, all of that goes into our opinions on images. When I introduced myself I said I would disclose more about myself I'm Jewish, you know, and I know that down south, particularly during the civil rights movement of the 1960s, when Jews went down to help our African families and sisters, the civil rights movement. anti Semitism ran rampant through the south. And it was because that many cases not only that were folks brought up as anti Semitic but also because now the Jewish people were aligned with another group of people people of color that were, you know, on the receiving end of discrimination and not giving them the same rights as others. What do you think we need to move on to the next image here. So, Robin, Robin mentions the names of the two Jewish young men that were murdered during the voting rights Cynthia could do an entire dissertation on that when she and I teach together. And I think, let's see. The question you asked Christopher will save that for a little bit will bring that one up okay. Okay, let me launch the poll. Actually, you know what, well go ahead. Well, I'll just. No, no, go ahead. Let's do that. Oh, Janice reacted immediately she was afraid that was the thing you see where this is going don't you. I'm going to end this poll. So I would be really, I would be really interested it looks like almost everyone, except for three people were all the way on on the scale toward number one there. I'd be interested. And if you don't feel comfortable. I, I'm completely understand that you're right not to speak out, but I'd be interested for the person that said they see it positively or as a smiley face, which number one five reflects correct. What, what your perspective on that images, because I think it's important for others to hear other people's perspectives. Or even the folks who kind of felt neutral about it that you know, if you're not Jewish or you don't know anyone who's yours that doesn't change to you or just this is the opportunity to have some of those different conversations and hear those different perspectives that we wouldn't necessarily hear. Jill Brett and I do quite a bit of training for state local police officers and prosecutors and we've done hate crimes, and we've done this hate crime training program for the last several years and we've traveled all over the country doing it in fact we've been in Massachusetts. I think three or four times training hundreds of officers in the Commonwealth. I think the one thing that one of the many things that we've learned doing this training for the past few years is when I mentioned, or I show this image as part of the training and I asked the police officers. What do they see a lot of times they tell me, if they see this image on a synagogue they'll say I see graffiti. I see vandalism, I see a violation of Massachusetts criminal code XYZ. They don't automatically respond with I see hate. I see something that is extremely powerful and anti Semitic. They don't, they go right in a different direction in their head. So, I think the point is very well made that some people see this it's a very visceral reaction others don't have that reaction they just see it differently. If I could just really quickly Jill, before we get into kind of the emotions of this, just give everyone just a little bit of a history lesson here remember I'm Jewish. Okay, I know what this means in modern day society. I don't know if many of you understand that this image actually was created back in Indian culture, 500 BCE, and, and it's actual meaning back then meant health luck luck success and prosperity. And that's a long, long time ago. And, and obviously that image has been used since then to mean a lot of things, other than those of its original meaning. But I just wonder if there are people that look at it historically and say no no, that image just sitting there in and of itself doesn't mean hatred. You don't know what the person's intent was by putting that image up. It isn't unless you know what that person's thinking why they put that image up where they put that image up. See the discussion about the flip. I'm so glad you mentioned that it's actually part of the class, since the and I teach sometimes we actually have officers look at the difference between those images of the Buddhist image and the swastika because they're very easily confused they do look very similar but they are turned in a way you distinguish it sometimes you just have to literally put one up to the next to the other realize it's turned the other way that's not what it what I thought it was. Go ahead say I know go ahead please. My take on this at Brett is like a lot of images and people to start off really good have really illustrious great reputations but once it turns, it turns. People, you know, whether it's a Joe paternal or Bill Cosby, you could have known them personally you could be saying I love them that's my person that's my man I love them but once they go down for something truly truly heinous you got to go on record. Oh I love Bill Cosby that's my guy he's such a nice person such a great human being. Oh what about Joe paternal he he could do no wrong like me personally that's just my own take I'm not going to go on record of like copy offending certain people have done something such so heinous it started off great what we initially known was you know a really great illustrious reputation, even assemble but I'm not going to think of anything good when I think of certain people images after the fact. Well, well Zane I'd be interested to hear your response to this and also the other folks were listening here. I'm not saying a bit of a devil's advocate but you know I really like the Cosby show it was creative. It was funny. There were there was great comedy in it. It portrayed an African American family upper middle class African American family. I really like that show. So, does what Bill Cosby did in his personal life, mean that we can't look at some of the things he created in the past is as being positive. And then the second part of that is, I really like Jello, does that mean I can't eat Jello anymore because you know he was a spokesman for Jello for years. That's just for me personally other people feel very differently to me. I'd like to separate the art from the artist you know what I mean because it gets to a point that we have to keep a long list longer in the CVS receipt, trying to keep track of who and what we got to cancel, especially for musicians like there's so many musicians that I like that I've done so much stuff that I don't even know what they did like every week is a new artist that I'm told I personally have to cancel like I can't sing a whole song without thinking of this person like there's ones that are really extreme such as R Kelly is ones that are like Chris Brown who might have smack the woman just two or three weeks ago, and then there's another wapper who's pissed off the LGBTQ plus community two weeks ago so every day every week it's something else so in that opinion I think one can enjoy the Cosby show without saying hey Bill Cosby is my guy he's such a great guy it's a funny show this guy is a terrible terrible human being. That's just my take though others could disagree with that one. Yeah, I'm saying I'm wondering if anyone who's tuned in would like to join or speak or share their perspective. I'd like to comment on Grant's comment here. Grant asks, does this mean somebody just type that I lost hold on I got to move up in the chat here real quick I apologize. Grant asked, does that mean something can never be redeemed or pulled back. We have an okay finger symbol explicitly hijacked by a bunch of Fortran. What a great point. So, so Grant I'm glad you mentioned that some because I actually got called out on this. Because when I, it's just the way I was taught my father use this. And so I picked up as a kid. When I say the number three and I show people the number three. I do it in this way. And it was brought to my attention that I probably need to start symbolizing the number three very differently than that. But then I did this and what does this mean to some people white power. And so it becomes really hard sometimes to choose your language to choose your your the images that you portray because of the upbringing you have when you had no idea that it meant that to other people. But Chris what I would say or grant I'm sorry what I would say is it doesn't mean you can't be redeemed, but you damn well better work on it. You just don't get, you know, okay, five years of past raw good now. What have you done to amend for that hurt. What have you done. What have you learned from the harm you caused that to me. Those are people that I would consider redeeming right. I see Carrie has her hand up to say something so I'm going to call on her. Can you hear me. Yes. Okay cool thank you. Yeah I just wanted to add. I don't type very fast so I couldn't get everything that I wanted to say on my, my chat statement but there was a church down on Mass Avenue and Cambridge. I think it's St. John's Church. And over the doorway it's been there. I mean the church has been there for probably 100 years if not more. And over the doorway the entrance to the church. They were various symbols. And there was this which I have always called the Nazi symbol and people in the neighborhood and there was a big up for about it. And the church came forward and said, you know, that actually belonged to, to goodness. It was a symbol of, you know, goodness and caring and compassion and, you know, and where we're with you, and when. I put my, I mean I had never heard that. And I read more about it. But when I, when I saw it just now. What I, what I realized is that I don't like it at all. But then I switched to my thought about what it really meant. And where it's origin came from. I was, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't throw it away. So, I'm just trying to make it different, I guess. That's it. Thank you, Gary. I see the chat and going wild. We had some great discussion. Really great discussion. Brings up to Christian cross. You know, this is doing Joe, you know, exactly what we had hoped it would do is it's making people think about how images over time can come to mean different things to different people. And some of those are redeemable. Some of those are not some are appropriate to be displayed others are not. It's all context to some people. It's fascinating. And as we get into these last few images here I think we'll, you'll see where we've been going with this to talk about some images images particularly that I think it's causing a tremendous amount of pain and anxiety in our community and a lot of discussion. Should we move on from this one. Yeah, and I want to let folks know to with the chat. I'm excited to use the to everyone option so that we can all see and share. And some of them are just coming to the panelists so if you want that that's great but if you want to join the conversation that way also use everyone. And we can go to the next. I want to watch this poll, almost everyone. You haven't responded and you want to you have a few seconds left and share and the survey says, it's like we have about 12% of folks feeling a little neutral. We have about 63% business mile number four and round 65% at the five. So leaning, leaning positively, decidedly positive. Let me give you a little history on this, a perspective that some of you may not realize actually exist. So this, this was actually designed by a gentleman by the name of Gilbert Baker. It first appeared 1978. It's of course the gay pride flag. I have friends today that look at this flag. And they're really angry about it. Because despite what Gilbert Baker's intention was, which was to represent the inclusivity and the diversity of the LGBTQ plus community. It wasn't the LGBTQ plus community back then with Gilbert Baker designed this flag. This actually doesn't represent, for instance, non binary people. It doesn't represent the transgender community. It doesn't represent many other aspects of the LGBTQI plus and that plus is really important in the community, because that's the dot dot dot that many people feel this doesn't represent. And in fact, you do a research and you hit Google, there's actually a more modern, more inclusive flag that is now being flown in many, many of the progressive areas of the LGBTQI community. Cynthia, I see you nodding. Wanted to add anything to that. I was just going to say that you're right, there's a much more modern LGBTQ flag. There's also the thought that why are we showing you this one, not to like give you the answer to the test but you know where is the transgender flag and where is the flag of the country of Mexico, how come the FBI and the Department of Justice, you know will fly the pride flag in in June, when the month you celebrate skate pride, but they don't fly a certain other type of flag for a certain other holiday you know why is this one so particular when it's just a teeny tiny percentage of the country. So some of the blowback I think that I hear about the flag is, you know, why do you need to fly this in my face I mean seriously like why is everything rainbow. You know I don't I don't fly my, you know, a flag represents how I present to the world to you I don't have to look at a rainbow flag. So sometimes it's, you know, for, for me, you know I see the rainbow flag and I see safety, I'm a member of the community I see safety I see inclusion. I see a welcoming environment or an atmosphere. And it's, you know, I feel good inside, but that's what I realized that's not everyone's feelings when they see this. I'm also not sure if everyone's aware but in Italy, this is considered the Pache or peace flag. And so it has a duplicate meaning in some environments not just the LGBTQ plus community. I would imagine don't know if there are any folks in this call. But they certainly exist within our nation around the world, who have some religious beliefs that put them in the position of feeling very strongly that holding up and publicizing and supporting a community that is quote unquote sinful is not the role of government and should not be done and we shouldn't be displaying this flag at all because it's destroying our children is destroying the family. Again, I'm just reflecting, you know, another opinion that may be out there. Does that makes a bad people, or have they grown up with a perspective about an issue that is very different than mine. And they view this image very differently than I do. Can I jump in on that one Brett. I think in society we have a job to learn though like obviously I've seen this image transform from my life like you know I'm 31 now, whether it's my parents grandparents, almost everyone I know has had a much much more negative understanding of this image 2030, even 10 years ago they do now people to evolve. It's one's job to continue learning it is think as a Catholic myself think if everything I think about God, and what I'm supposed to know what God really want us to discriminate Is this make any sense if someone does any critical thinking so people need to continue learning having conversations meet people people feel a type of way and feel my religion says I can persecute people for being you know gay or lesbian, and then their kid has it. Now they feel differently when their kid is it now they can see the light like sort of take one's own kid to have to be a member of this community for one, not want to you know, persecute and see people in a negative light that's just my take. I will remind you and others in on the call that unfortunately, particularly youth are not always welcomed by their family and the homelessness rate rate and rate of suicidal ideation, suicide actual suicide within the LGBTQ plus community, particularly of youth is is proportions and it has to do with what you just talked about saying there are many people who have not evolved from from those beliefs that that they've either read or they've preached to them or been raised in their own households to believe. Yeah, but to add to that as well, but I do want to say, as an African American male. A lot of us are you know allies we're fighting in the same fight for LGBTQ rights for you know a better Arlington for you know immigration reform for just policing for African Americans that being said, African Americans are not as progressive as a lot of our neighboring, you know, white friends doing they just are not they are not as far left on the LGBTQ issues and certain things as you know a lot of the ally white people are so coming out in the black community is even bigger challenge in the Caribbean community of black community even bigger bigger challenge people really look at it. I have friends myself who still haven't come out to their parents they're my age or like yeah they can never know like you know they still don't know what their own mom or dad are going to say if they're going to sell them so some of that really is real like thanks for that comments and any other, any other stuff from the group here. By the way, Joe, I'm not sure if you're keeping an eye or we're moving right along it's 25 after I know I saw you say if we have anyone wants to comment on this one or time in certainly do so. I just want to recognize we're going back to swastika here for a second because Joe Kuro Joe I hope I'm pronouncing your last time right Joe Kuro made this comment about, he separates the swastika itself from modern day Germany because he argues that modern German society has evolved quite a bit. I'm not sure everyone's aware. The display of the swastika in Germany is illegal. They don't permit it. Right. It. That is how how strongly they feel that it has scarred their nation. It doesn't mean by the way there's Holocaust Museum and those images are up there and they, they definitely are teaching the history of the Holocaust Germany I've been there. It's amazing what they're doing but but that point is well taken Joe that that here you have right a society that, you know, one of the deepest scars in in our world's history, the Holocaust emanated from that nation. And now that nation is looked upon as a nation that does welcome refugees and values diversity. In fact, I just was in Berlin right before the pandemic started. You think you were in New York City you think you were in any one of a number of American cities because of the diversity and just open environment that it is there. So really good point Joe. Should we hit the next one. Let's do it. Here we go. All right. See how they feel about this image. Here's the poll. Remember to if you have specific questions or things you want to revisit definitely put it in the Q&A box. If we've got some time after going through the images we can circle back to answer some of those questions. So the poll, you should see it I don't, I can't see what you see. But it's a separate box that pops up that allows you to click on it so if you're in the full screen mode you might have to click around to see where it is. But it should be just a separate box that pops up that has a question and some different options. It's not appearing on my screen I think that's what we're hearing from some some others. So the panelists won't see it. Okay. But everyone who's an attendee should. Okay, give it one more second. The last two. We might be able to move it. Does that help. Okay. So if you want to minimize your chat, you might be able to see it. Sorry. Okay, well you've got 27 out of 31 have filled it out. So most have seen it so I'm going to end it and we'll just start to discuss. And if you weren't able to you're more than welcome to chime in during the conversation. To share your thoughts. Like a little bit of less positive. It absolutely means negative. Absolutely. Cynthia you want to start on this or should I, because I know we're both very pained by this. So my first reaction when I see this is in this again, just as a reminder for maybe those who joined late. I'm a retired special agent with the FBI, so I spent 22 years in law enforcement. When I see this flag, I, I don't have an overwhelming positive reaction. Usually when I see this, I feel like it's a defensive posture that it is a it's in response to another flag or another symbol. I've seen this a lot with in Ferguson. So a lot whenever there's a high profile incident of alleged police brutality. So I don't, I, I, whenever I see this and I know people wear this. I see a lot of former and present law enforcement wear this bracelets or in jewelry or, you know, t-shirts and sweatshirts. I just always I get a little nervous. Maybe I'll just put it, I'll leave it like that and I'll let Brett kind of share his view with the other law enforcement person on the panel. Sure, so I first raised my right hand in 1984. As a member of law enforcement. In my career, I try not to cry as I tell you all this. I have 18 coworkers whose names appear on the National Law Enforcement Memorial, which is in Washington DC. And every officer that is killed in a line of duty is honored to have their name etched there in internal remembrance. I am the president of an organization here in Washington DC, well there in Washington DC, because I'm in Cape Cod right now, called concerns of police survivors, which seeks to remember and take care of the survivors of police officers killed in the line of duty. This thin blue line for me initially. That's what it meant. It meant that thin blue line that police officers must walk between good and evil of safety and danger of sacrifice and safety. And so it holds a very special place in my heart. But what it represents now to me is something that is very painful. The image that that that I believe means something so honorable and so painful to me has been taken by other people and used as a symbol of hate, as a symbol of of inequality, and that that what about us is that Cynthia revealed earlier. Folks, if you if you haven't watched closely. I want you to look back at the images from January the sixth, Michael Phanone, a police officer from the Metropolitan Police Department. I trained him and he worked for me during during my career there. Okay. He was nearly killed as an on duty police officer responding to the insurrection. Waving above his head as they were trying to take his firearm off of him and people were saying kill him with his own gun. That flag was waving above his head members of the insurrectionists that crowd, we've my symbol. And if I sound angry if I sound sad I am because if anybody understands how a symbol can change meaning. I get it. I don't wear the thin blue line anymore. It doesn't appear behind me on my wall when I when I speak to community groups or the cops anymore. Because until I can reclaim that as a proud image as an image that means the same thing to everybody. I'm not going to use it anymore. It's not because I'm not proud of it's not because I don't know what it means to be because I'm not going to hurt other people by using that image. I'll stop there, but we thought it was important to talk about this image because the last image we're going to talk about. I bet some of you have some very similar emotions about how that's co opted now it's being used against your community and people that think and look the way you do. So I'll stop now. Is there any folks on the call who want to step up and share. I know the chat is there but if you're willing to say something, you're more. Hey Cynthia do you want to address Kathy's question there in the chat or if you can see it. She makes an assumption that anytime she sees this flag flying on someone's house that they're a Trump supporter. That's a great question. It's hard to know right so you see this flag and it's hard. You know I have friends the fly that fly the flag I friends though that wear clothing and apparel. It has the flag on it. It's very common to see a thin blue line bracelet on a lot of police officers. It's hard to know you see this and you think, is that, you know, a colleague of mine or is that a Trump supporter and like Brett said, you don't know. It's super sad that this flag that was created as is a symbol to honor law enforcement has been corrupted. And how do we reclaim that. That's a, that's a really, really tricky situation. I know that when Brett and I talk a lot about LGBTQ 101 issues we talk about the word queer. And, you know, to a lot of young LGBT folks. They identify themselves as queer they've reclaimed that word that became a slur to their community they reclaimed it and they proudly say that they are identifying as queer. And I believe that this flag will once again be reclaimed as something positive and not something that is unclear. So I, I'm with you I've seen the same thing I've seen many many houses that have a Trump flag and the thin blue line flag, flying together. And it's very concerning because you just don't know. Maybe Grant has his hand up so I'm going to allow you to talk. Well, while you do that, while you while you get grant up there and speaking I just want to address something same type of the comments. Seeing this flag, the thin blue line flag, oftentimes surrounded by and next to the Confederate flag, and make America great other Trump paraphernalia. Absolutely and and and that is why many of us in law enforcement. I have to say unfortunately not the majority, but many of us in law enforcement now. I won't say disassociated ourselves from the thin blue line because we still, we still in our hearts, those of us who know what it's meaning was when it was created, believe in that meaning. And we are not going. I'm not going to hold up a symbol that people look at and think, well, does he also believe the Confederate flag and other hateful symbols are good too. I don't want to be confused that way and so I'm confident enough that I can talk to people and explain to them what the thin blue line means. I don't have to display it. Go ahead, why don't you like grant, make his comment or ask my, am I hearing my coming through. Yes. Yeah, I, to shame, I think the message of this flag has been co opted I mean the, it's used the people who fly it I don't think appreciate the nuance of police reform I think. So yeah, I, and I but I also don't see this how flag very often Arlington. But what I do as a citizen who tries to translate how do we make the police better. Remember that in Arlington we did have a huge banner across the police station, saying all cops are bastards. And I drove past that every day. And when it was talked about it was not repudiated by many was cheered on by many. So, you know when you look at this flag I say, yeah, no, but I do know there are people trying to say how do we express support. I mean Chicago just put a 30 year old woman into a box a police officer killed on a traffic stop so how do we express support for the police as a concept. And I think about this which I think is being used to provoke to cover for the worst of things so it's, it's troubling but I, I, if you want to talk about symbols in Arlington. This isn't what I see I see all cops are bastards. And that troubled me just as deeply as seeing this fine. So, I said my piece. Thank you. Anyone else have any feelings around some of the banners that they're proud of. If I could just comment on just something what Grant said there. I feel your frustration. Trust me, I raise it more because I, I want very much to reclaim this symbol. And I want very much to the concerns police survivors was amongst the first to respond to that young young female officers, new mother by the way, family, and we'll take care of her, her family for the rest of their lives. That's the blue line to do that. I think the actions of people are our actions at the voting booth our actions where we put our money, our actions where we, where we put our feet right on what side of an issue we stand, say a lot more than the flag that I fly on the front of my house. That's the easy thing to do. I think, you know, it's pretty easy to put a flag up and say, I support the police. But are you willing to go to a council hearing or select the hearing or wherever you call them in Arlington, and to stand up and say listen, you know, I, I don't like what I'm seeing in law enforcement. I think there's far too much violence and excessive force and racial profile, but that doesn't mean I don't support the police. I want better training. I want better cops. I want, I want the type of cops that reflect our values here in our community. I don't know that we need to fly a thin line flag to do that. To add to that prep, one of the most annoying things I see when I see this image pisses me off, frankly, is because it creates the divide that one is either anti police, or one supports the police when, to be honest, a lot of people that fly to flag are only using it to a few. Black Lives Matter movement. They don't actually give anything about the police. They do not care. Like they only care when it's convenient for them. And then the other way it twisted around that you can't want racial reforms and be pro police at the same time. Like, a lot of people such as myself have police officers in our family. We expect, we respect the important work we do believe police officers are integral part of our community. It's not one of the extreme, you know, views of we got to abolish the police. Like that's not the view I personally hold. That's not the view in WSP holds, you know, we want to, we want to approve the work we do with our communities and policing is such. So the war and the rift that this creates between that, whether it says, okay, you're anti police, these policies are anti police. It's like, why do we have to be anti police just for wanting, you know, people who do bad things to be held accountable and wanting better policing. I'm reminded Zane that my parents, in my upbringing, punished me quite a bit. They criticized me quite a bit. It didn't change the fact that they supported and loved me, that those two things can exist. You can be critical of an entity, you can be critical of people, you can be critical of a profession, but still be supportive of them because you want better of them, you want them to grow, you want them to improve, you want to serve others better. And I think you put that very well. And I think I just want to read a comment that Mellie shared, which I think is a great segue to our last image. But what was shared was that the line is also on the American flag and that adds to the false equivalency of police and patriotism. The flip side then implies that BLM or LGBTQ pride or support are therefore unpatriotic, which is not true. And that's cosigned by Atlanta, you know, around misconceptions that often need to false equivalences so I think that will probably transition to the next. I wonder what it could be Joe, what would be possibly the grand finale of images. I'm not sure. Let's see. So we'll launch the poll for this one and then we'll discuss and then if there are things we want to revisit we've got about 15 minutes left so we'll try and get everything in while we can. Let's wait a few more seconds. We have about 80% of the participants voted, and we will call it. We're going to share these results. We have about 50% little over 50% of folks feeling somewhat positive about this 32% little bit positive some neutral, and about two folks that don't feel so great about this. So does anyone on our panel want to kick it out but they're perspective. I'll start with that Jim. So, Black Lives Matter has meant a lot of different things to many people it's shifted to, you know, less extreme to more, you know, global. But that being said like even myself I have multiple opinions of Black Lives Matter it conjures up different things to how I think. The WCPC is a different organization than Black Lives Matter. So some things were aligned with some things you know don't want to fully run and fully endorse so to some seeing a symbol sometimes it symbolizes someone being an ally supporting you know, better policing in America, a more just society for African Americans. And other times I see just, I guess just a badge of like laziness sometimes like let me put a black square on my Instagram or Facebook let me just say Black Lives Matter. I'm not really willing to do to work. I'm not going to go to the meetings that Brett said I'm not going to vote. I'm not I'm just but I'm just going to say Black Lives Matter so people get off my case because it's a popular thing to do. My favorite celebrities are saying Black Lives Matter let me just you know, display the symbol in this thing so this is a great example of how symbols can mean different things. And sometimes other groups assume Black Lives Matter is extremist that they're going to be some of the people that were at some of the peaceful protests that some of them turned a little you know, at night a little toward a way of looting and looting and so some people just categorize and put you in that box so Black Lives Matter can mean many different things but overall, I generally think it means people are doing the right thing and want to be an ally. I'd like to share a perspective that has been shared with me. Again, I will, I will place the disclaimer on this that it's not necessarily my opinion but but I think it's one of these to be heard. Some that view Black Lives Matter as an effort to to make sure that the African American community gets more than other communities that somehow I will personalize this that I as a Caucasian man as a white American have to give something up in order for Black Lives Matter. And now, very much personalizing this. That's where I think this has been co opted, because from the very beginning what I've heard the message to be is, hey, what about us. Black Lives Matter to Black Lives Matter also, we need to recognize, we as a society that there are so many places, the criminal justice system is one of them, but many places where there is racial inequality, and that until we one acknowledge it, and two, actually put systematic changes in place to improve upon it, that racial equality will never ever change. And it doesn't just exist between black and white, it's within our own communities that this happens. And that's what's so frustrated to watch this that that there's this tit for tat that a Black Lives Matter flag goes up on someone's home, and that their neighbor across the street needs to put up a flag of the Confederacy, or to say, all lives matter. They're completely distorting the message that it was originally meant to bring to light. And then when you add those people who have walked, right, surrounding that image. They put masks over their faces and call themselves anarchists and start looting and destroying property, who really don't represent the Black Lives Matter movement. They bring shame and they bring an image into a completely different light. So let me go back to the thin blue line. To me it's exactly what's happened to the thin blue line to many is what's happened to the Black Lives Matter motto and flag. I'm just looking in the chat. And I'm gonna have any folks who are working their opinions are interested in saying a bit more. I'm not going to comment about leaving that any symbol dividing us by race is not helping the conversation. I think that that's, and that's an interesting perspective and I, I personally didn't see Black Lives Matter as that way, and I guess I'll just share my perspective so I am mixed, I'm half white I'm half black. And having this type of discussion with both sides of my family is really interesting because I have folks on both sides who feel both ways that you need to talk about the fact that Black Lives haven't mattered. Now's the time that they need to be accounted for, but also that idea of, well all lives matter we all just need to work together to make it better and value humanity, but it's acknowledging that not everyone has been considered a part of humanity. I think, for me, it's been, it's been a journey to be able to have these conversations daily because often people don't know what my background is. They don't know, you know I'm in this role, I'm spearheading diversity equity inclusion but little do you know that I've also had very racist Italian grandparents who did not want my mother to marry her. You know, it's that's embedded in my family and having these conversations still daily is always happening. But specifically for Black Lives Matter for me, it's, it's a statement of that the time is now that those lives need to matter and they need to continue to matter and still they're, until they're seen on the same playing field as all lives. So just anyone else can chime in. If anyone wants to speak up, show it and raise your hand. And we can look to the chat for some other comments. I'd see. When that has raised your hand, we can let you talk and then if anyone else would like to certainly feel free to raise your hand. Yeah, this this this symbol this message this movement to me represents empowerment. And as a woman not a woman of color a white woman. I've known, I've known oppression. Whenever, and I know our history. And I know what has, you know, because I have that knowledge. I know that something has to change for Black people for people of color in this country. And, and, and this and it feels like this is like I want to be behind this, this voice that speaking up and saying, yes, we matter to, we're important to, we're human too. And, and that, you know, that's that to me is exciting and empowering and gives me gives me hope. It's encouraging. I enjoy. Yeah, that's it. Hey, Joe, I think it's important before we I know we only have five minutes here before we close to acknowledge some of some of the comments here have have very clearly said they find this image this flag to be divisive. And, and I think, as, as I read these comments. They feel that it's been politicized that that it means more than just equality now but it's choosing sides of a political debate that people are taking and that some people are simply using it to express their political views as opposed to the human rights or civil rights position. And I think that that that goes back to how we started this conversation, you know, what something means to you can mean something different to me, and it's based off of our experiences are identities, and whether you see it as a political sign, or cultural sign, it's about having these types of discussions to kind of get it out there so we can start to come to an understanding of what it is we are trying to share and talk about. And I kind of just want to ask this question. It's sort of similar to what I asked earlier Jill about. If you saw that that personal vehicle parked at the police stations parking lot with the Confederate flag on the bumper. Just your visual reaction to sing a car parked in your neighborhood that has the thin blue line sticker on the bumper run on the windshield, or that has black lives matter. Somehow displayed on it, or any one of your neighbors who put one of those images up in their window or hanging from their, their doorway. You know, do we assume what that person is saying simply because of the implicit bias we have towards that image, or do we actually take the time to listen to that person and to hear what it is is behind their display of that image. Because I know just from the police background, you know, not everyone with the thin blue line sticker supports a particular political party. They may have a friend on that National Law Enforcement Memorial wall and it means something very specific to them to put that there. On the other hand, as a member of the LGBTQ plus community myself, I know my mother and father have stickers on their bumpers that are gay pride. By the way, they have the old ones trying to update it with the new ones, but hey, they're 78 I can't chase them overnight. But do people assume that my parents are gay and lesbian, because they have those stickers on their bumper. My dad revels in that by the way my mother's not so sure how comfortable she is with that so. I think it's very real I think we see these things and we make our own assumptions but it's all about asking this question. I've certainly done it in my own neighborhood. There are plenty of BLM signs and yards. And when I do go out for my runs I'm quite curious who lives there so sometimes if folks are in their yard, I'll just stop and talk. Hey, Joe, we also have this comment from Christiana who thank you very much for for your comment Christiana here she she out yourself as a police officer. And it looks like as a black police officer here and ask about black police officers lives. And where do they fit into this black lives matter that some of which we shouldn't say the majority but some of which have some very strong feelings against the police, as Dave and before, as Zane alluded to very few of them think abolishing the police or defunding the police is is the right answer here. I mean that that's a huge discussion because you know law enforcement is represented by a diverse group of people, not the majority of people. Okay, it's still very a white male dominated profession, and anybody that denies that is just not looking at the facts. I mean, I'm a gay Jew that can I skate. And I had to protect the Ku Klux Klan, when they marched down Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC. If you don't think that wasn't something I didn't want to do. Then you don't know me very well. And the assumptions that are made about me, right, because of how I look at the profession I'm in. So I get it totally Christiana and thank you for your service. You're going to have to bring it to an end here soon gel I'll turn it over to you. No, I'm saying I wish we had another hour. I mean, if we can share the screen and we can kind of all be here. This has been really wonderful. I'm so glad we were able to test out this new form of engagement with participants. I know it's been tough to be able to try and have these conversations over zoom and do it in a way that's interactive, but I feel like for this time for for this conversation and this went well and hopefully moving forward we'll start to use this a little differently. But I just want to say thank you again, Cynthia Fred saying for joining us and everyone who participated. Similar to last year, we've been partnering with true story theater and paralleling these talks. So next week I think maybe Chris will put it in the chat or I can. They'll be having an active bystander training. So it'll be part of the community conversation parallel series so that'll be August 17 also over zoom next Tuesday from 78 30 so that training with floor, how to safely and effectively intervene. When we witness situations of bigotry or injustice and I think also part of that, if folks are leaving this conversation that you can take what you learned here today and just start to have conversations, ask questions, see, don't make assumptions. Be open to listening to different perspectives and I think that's one step we can all take to start to make some of the changes we want to see. So, I think there, I'll probably wrap it up because we're now we're omitted over, but this was really wonderful. Thank you again, everyone. And if you have questions or comments or anything feel free to reach out to me. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Thank you for hosting this Joe and thank you to everybody for participating. Zane Cynthia thanks. Good night. Good night. Thank you.