 Mae'n gwneud i mi yn gwybod i'w pethau social media'n gwybod i'w bryd yn gwneud i chi mae'r gwestelion gael, ac yn dweud i'r cyfeirio i'r sgwpeth o'r hanes cyfnodau ac yn gweithgau hwnnw, felly mae'n ffordd i chi fydd yn ymddangos cyflawni gyda'r cyfnodau. Mae hi wedi'u gweithio'n gwneud i'r cerdd i gyfnod i'r cyfrannu, a mi hi'n gweithio'n cyfrannu yma i'r Charlie Brunson. Cymweithio'r Charlie? Mae'n gwneud i'r cyfrannu. dwi'n gwych, dwi'n nhw ddweud o'ch ddweud. Mae'n gwych, mae'n dweud hynny. Rwy'n fawr o'r sgwr i'w sgwrn. Mae'n gwych, mae'n gwych, mae'n dweud o'r sgwrn. Mae'r sgwrn er mlynedd i eich gwych o'r peth. Ond hefyd, mae'n rhaid i'w ranna. Mae'n dwych. Mae'n dweud i'r ddweud o'r llwyl. Mae'n dweud i'w ddweud i'w ddweud, Llywethaf, mae'n ddechrau am ychydig o'r mwyth gyd. Felly mae'n gwybod o'n gwybod o'r hyn. Ond ymlaen i'w Llyfrgell Toni Argin yn ysgol, Jan-Mey, Victor? Llyfrgell ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r Jan-Masy, Jan-Mey, fel ymlaen i'r Ymlaen i'r Ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r ymlaen i'r yr hun, Eddie Richardson, ond mae siaradwch yn gweithio, yn cael ei gweithwch ar eu cyffredinol, ond eisiau achos yr oed yw'i gweithio'r genny, ond eisiau pharffaeth wrth fost oes cyflau'r hasion ac wrthod i chi'n disbyn amgafodd a'on byw hwnnw i gael i'r gwybeth ond oedd oes gennych hwnnw no chi'n ffraithio? Pa sy'n meddyliad rwy'n gweithio, rygwyr yn ystafell yn ymgyrch arnod, Rydyn ni'n gofyn i'n dwi'n dwylo'r prysnus i'ch byddiw 18 o 20 oed yn gwych. Rydyn ni'n gwybod i'r llwion i'ch gyfnod. Rwy'n gwybod i'r gwirionedd. Rydyn ni wedi'n gwybod i fynd yn gwirionedd, a rydyn ni'n gwybod i'r gwirionedd. Rydyn ni'n gwybod i'ch gwirionedd. gael ymdrechefn olaf, na unrhyw ddim ond ydym i'w ffoelwydd nesaf I'm yn rhaglen i ysbyt yn ysbyt ar hynny arnyntau.FA'r�orydd yn Llyfrgell ac yn Llyfrgell. Felly, rydyn ni'n dЙF yn y dabeiol, peirioneddiaeth yn ddurdig felly'r llwyddiant ar gyfer 11. Tyno'n y Llyfrgell ac yn Y Llyfrgell a'r Llyfrgell yn y t weld diwrdd gan colli yn y mynd. Rydyn seron o'n gwleid yn gynnyn, rydyn ni'n gweld ac byw ychwanegwyd yn yn ymwneud yn gyntaf i'r syniad iawn. Mae'n gweithio ar hyn yn ymwneud am y dweud. Mae'n gweithi'n gwneud ar y syniad cyfan yw hyffordd yn ymgyrchol, mae'n gweithio ar gyflwyng. Ond mae'n gweithio i'r sport, yn rhoi'r lle i'r cynllun ffwrdd. Mae'n gweithio ffwrdd, ac mae'n gweithio ar y lle ei fod yn ddod i'r llyffyr. Mae'n gweithio i'r ffwrdd o dda o ran, We got us a very market and there was a shoe store where shoes piled up high so we turn up the in the elevator car board on the floor so we turn up and all of the shoes on the pile would all be tied together with a piece of string so you get there, we'd rock up, three of us, my brother and my sister Jule we'd rock up, she'd get us at the side got up for her shoes, try them on they'll do do Fel ydydyn nhw'n chael maen nhw, ac rwyfyn nhw'n Cymru a ddim oedd yn rhan o ran fod yn cyfnodd yn hynny a gweithio o'r ymddangos yn y lluniau. Felly rwy'n ymddangos hynny, felly dyna gan mwyn mewn ymweld fel y blolwyr wedi'i gilydd o'r ymweld, a'n siwr yn ymddangos ffawr, y blolwyr wedi gilydd o'r fynd i ei gwybwyr. Mae sydd wedi'u rhaid i gofyn nhw, felly sydd wedyn yn gwybod i'r llwys i'r llwys Fe wnaeth i'r canu ar gael, mae'n gweithio i'r perysig, mae'n dechrau'r rhan o'r gwahanol, ac mae'n gobeithio'r newydd. Efallai y rhan o'r gwahanol sy'n ei fod yn rhan o'r cyflawn o'r cyflwyno'r gwahanol, fe gael eich ddiffyniadau sy'n gwych yn ei wneud i'n gwahanol i'r gwahanol. Ond ydych chi, mae'n rhan o'r gwahanol, ac mae'n gwaith honno, ond mae'n lle'n gweithio'n gweithio. ac yn dweud yn dweud i gael y cyfnod yma, ond rwy'n dweud i'r peth yn y ddweud ac mae'r broth i'r systylau'n gyfyrdd mor maes. Gwrs, mae'n ddifued yn y bwysig? Rwy'n ddweud, yna. Rwy'n ddweud i'n ddweud yma, yn ganlyniad wyan yn ddweud i'r peth. Gweithio? Rwy'n dweud i'r peth yn y ddweud i 12 oed, ac yn y ddweud i'r 6 oed yn gweithio. Felly, o fyddiw 11 oed, I went home, cooking, learning to iron. To bring myself up really cos he'd come home from working, got to bed. So I get myself ready for school, walked two miles to school with a friend. So I just thought it would have been better really to have been with my mum. But when my brother and sister were going there with them, I just felt bad about my dad on his own, even though it was his fault really for them splitting up with his womanising. Felly yw'r ffost efo'r job? Mae'r first job was working in a lampshade factory. I left school and I was just looking for a job. I left school at 15, didn't really have any real qualifications. A few GCSEs. To be honest, I went through a school, loving school, but only really for the sport. They didn't do GCSE or A-level P in those days. So I missed that bore, because that would have been my thing really. So I applied for this job on a YTS scheme. I don't know if you remember those. The youth training schemes, £23 a week. Got the job, working in this lampshade factory in the warehouse. So there was a factory full of women and a handful of men. So if nothing else, it taught me how to communicate with women. They'd all be flirting and I'd be going bright red, being a ginger kid. I'd go bright red and they'd be just making me blush all the time. So it was a good grounding that way, being able to communicate with women and having a bit of a banter with women. So how do you go from making lampshades to then, and the prison system working on a cat-a-prison? From there I went to work with my dad in the mill, in like a cotton mill. And I did a couple of years in the cotton mill. I didn't mind it, I never really wanted to work there. I got married very young and met a lady on holiday, went to Burnley, had a couple of children, two girls, Emma and Sherry. Split up when I was over there, still working in the mills, working in a weaving shed in Burnley at that time called Perseverance and you need Perseverance to work there. It was a weaving shed and making parachutes. I wouldn't have wanted to jump out of the plane with anything I would have thought of that. I wouldn't have jumped off a curb. So that wasn't the job for me. My mate got me a job in Manchester, a garage delivering cars all over the country. I still just wanted to do sport. I always grew up wanting to be a footballer. I played semi-pro, but didn't get the break to make a professional career. I get paid 50 quid for a few games or paid here and there, but it was never enough to earn a living. So I went to the job centre one day and there was a booklet on the side that panned that on the prison service. This was in 1989 then. So I was in the job site. I had a quick read through it and I thought, I don't want to do that. My mates had been to prison saying about the screws and I thought that's not for me. I had a flick through it. I got to the end of the booklet and there was a passage on a paragraph on being a PEI or being a dog handler in the service specialising. So I thought, oh, PEI, fancy that, working in the gym. So I read a little bit more about it. Went up to the desk and I said, how do I apply for this PEI? And she laughed and she said, you can't just apply to be a PEI in the prison. You have to be a prison officer first and then specialise as a PEI. I said, all right, get me an application form. So I got an application form, filled it in and then got an interview. Did an aptitude test. Got through the aptitude test and then I had an interview. There was a three panel. So there was two men and a lady who interviewed me. And again towards the end of the interview, I thought it was going quite well. I still had a sheared dead then. I had a sheared dead from the age of 15 trying to hide the fact that I'm a ginger. So you get a little bit less abuse. So anyway, I walked in with my sheared dead and towards the end of the interview she said to me, why have you got a sheared dead? I just said, it's just my choice really. It's just what I like. And she thought you think you're being timid here in being in a prison and working with prisoners and you having a sheared dead. I thought to be honest, no, I don't. I said though that these people are in prison. I said, I don't think they're going to be intimidated by somebody's haircut. And she looked very serious. And at the end of it, I got a letter in two weeks time saying you haven't got in. And then there was more bad news saying you have to wait two years to reapply. So I waited the two years. I was doing the driving job, which I quite liked. The two years flew by. I got a few books out of the library on the interview techniques. So when I got that question and all that type of question next time I was ready for the answer. What was your answer? Next time when they didn't give me the exact same one the next time it was because it was quite a big lad for me. I was trained, I was wait trained. And they said about my physical attributes and saying you could come across as intimidating. So it wasn't the end now. It was more the physique. And I then just said, well, to be honest I said I like to be healthy. Maybe I could impart that knowledge onto people. My view will be to be a PEI. And that's why I've got myself in shit. So I'm really looking down the line into the future of what I want to be. And I'd like to be more of a role model for the prisoners really on how to live a clean life. How to build themselves up, how to look after themselves. So then I got in then. What was it like your first day for all when you were getting in there? 6-3, 6-4? I was 6-2 when I joined the job. So what are you thinking first day in? Just a young kid? Do you realise that's what you wanted to do? Or are you thinking I might have made a mistake? I knew I didn't want to be a prison officer. And to be honest, even now when I look back if I hadn't been a PEI I don't know if I would have lasted as an officer. I didn't want to be an officer. What's the job of a PEI? You're working in a gym. So you're supervising. But also you're working out with prisoners. You show them through programmes for some. And we also want some people to realise you run a full-time PE course. So you'll get, say, 12 prisoners on a PE course. And they'll stay with you for the whole year doing various qualifications like baller leaders, British Weightlifting Association. They do badminton leaders. Working in the fitness industry. So loads of various courses throughout the year. All learning about anatomy and physiology about how the body works. Drug courses. So it's not just about going out and lifting with somebody or writing a programme. It's about education as well. And some of the prisoners that we've got they've never ever done a course or done any form of education before. So it's quite rewarding that. I didn't know that obviously when I was applying for a job. That side of it. I just knew I wanted to keep myself fit and would rather be in a track suit all day than a black and white uniform. Because I worked in the gym. I was in Berlin for a bit. I worked in the gym. But the only thing is we used to get the nonsense over in the morning. Because the gym's probably one of the most dangerous for people getting injured or people attacking. It's not a mean with the weights and all the stuff that's there. How was it for you when you had to see the non-season? To be honest with you, the non-seasons are the bacon or the VPs, vulnerable prisoners as the staff call them. They're all kept separate. When they come down I always tried not to know what they were in for. But you could never always get away with that because some of them, especially where I work, were very notorious really. High profile cases. One or two of them that you can look back on and you think you just see the coldness in their eyes. Completely different type of prisoner than the mainstream prisoners. Not so much you don't get any threats or not violent in most ways or most cases. But they're very manipulative on the wing and try to be down the gym a little bit as well. So it's a completely different session really. We didn't have AP courses with VPs neither. So we didn't do any education with them. They would just come down and supervise. Didn't really work out with many. Although I had to be said that some vulnerable prisoners and the bacon's, nonsense, whatever term who come down, not all of them were sex offenders. Some of them could be debtors that have run off the wing because they owe money or for drugs. Protection. Protection. So not all sex offenders. And you could generally tell the difference between the two just in the demeanor and the way they were. Because you're only there to do your job. Even when I was on the gym pass, I loved that job and I wouldn't do the fuck out of jeopardising. It was the best job in the jail. I did eventually get kicked off. I just flopped because they used to come over in the morning. It was a horrible vibe. We had to give them their shorts and their T-shirt and never fucking spoke to them. But some of the prison officers used to tear what they were in for. Some of the prison officers used to want us to batter them. I have heard of things like I've never been part of that. I did a year on the landings at Parkhurst. I went in the gym at Parkhurst. It started in 1993. 1994 when I joined as a PEI when on my PE course. Because you have to go on a PE course for 26 weeks at a time. I did all the mountaineering, all the various courses. Absolutely loved it. It was everything that I dreamt of to be a PEI. Do you get the heads up at how, as a certain, say there's five stars, and you say that this prisoner's five stars is dangerous. Do you get the heads up? Is it not paper what you get to tell you how dangerous they are? You get an idea. When you get a daily briefing sheet as well, if somebody's coming in with an eye profile. You get some that will come down. Lighting the gym certainly along that. In the later years we had some that would only come down. We had two gyms. The sweet gym and the main gym. And one or two that we get high profile cases, we're only allowed to train on their own. One of them had done like you said before in another prison, but he'd done well over somebody's head. So he trained on his own in the other prison, in the other gym. How do you befriend a high profile prisoner as an actor or do you just be yourself? I've always just been myself. Always from the start of the job. To be honest with you, there's a lot of prisoners that I'd rather sit down and have a drink with than some of the staff in the monist. I know that might sound absurd and it might not win me too many friends in the prison and staff wise. But I think other people would say the same. Certainly PEIs. I was just always myself. I was very, very fit. I don't want to blow smoke up my own ass but I was very fit. So I used to do circuit classes. Joining the classes would play football and when they did the interwing, I'd be on one of the teams. Some of the cons on the other, prisoners on the other, wings didn't like it. And one of the lads on the A wing that I played for at the time would be saying, I got a screw playing for you on the interwing. And they were saying, that broke down barriers playing and because I was all right with football at the time as well, they were saying, we'll have him play for us next season and then it's on the next round. I'll go and play for another wing. So, but yeah, it was just, you'd be friends somebody over time, especially a gym order, you see yourself as like a gym order. You get an old special bond that down there with you all day, every day. Oh yeah, there might be cleaning, but sometimes you'll have a training session with one. So you get talking, barriers come down, get to find out what they were doing before they came into the prison. For instance, there's one lad James Gilligan that I'm still in touch with. I just got out actually last week. So all the best to James. Good luck to him. Gill is called. But he was a gym orderly. Did the peer courses. He moved on to Warthwood after. Going to me and said, I just want to thank you for everything he did for us in the time in the prison. Kept in touch. I know when he was at Warthwood, when he started to go back down the system to cap B, Cs, Ds. He put all his knowledge to good use. He was part of introducing the crossroads system for the kids who'd come into the prison. He'd talked about the drugs and the downfall of coming into prison. So he went on to really do what we wanted him to do to go on to a better life. Now he's out there freeing, going on to be a gas fitter. That's a success story. There's lots of them. There's about four or five that I still have contact with. They've gone on and done all right. Cos you were in Parkhurst when there was a great escape. I was on duty that night. So what happened then? That's one of the biggest prison breaks in British history? It was, it was, yeah. Because it's a category? Which are always deemed as nobody can get out of. This is a bit of an exclusive here to be honest to you. Everybody talks about this great escape from Parkhurst. The three men, Andy Rogers is a Scottish lad. Good old Andy. Good old Andy. He's one of the most powerful men I've ever met in prison, Andy. What were you strained for me? Strength, strength-wise. And mind as well, really, because when I look back, he never had it with anybody, really. Everybody was shocked when he escaped with those other two. Because he was always a bit of a loner. But nobody ever went near. He was powerful. He was the first man I ever saw come through a prison cell door and took it off with his bare hands and still wanted to fight when he came through it. My first meeting, talking to Andy, I'll come back to the escape in a minute. But my first meeting of Andy, when I first got to Parkhurst, burning mind, I've been there about three weeks. So I'm now on the line and I'm obviously in black and white because I'm still a prison officer waiting to do my year so I can apply to be a PEI. I'm still going in early and volunteering to referee football and going out on the yard refereing the football matches with the prisoners. Because none of the PEIs really wanted to do it. Because it was a really precourious job doing that. You used to get a lot of stick. But I didn't mind it as well. I'm quite angry because I'm a footballer. I enjoyed it. I just enjoyed being part of the game. So anyway, my first meeting with Andy, I was born to the chips. If you're on chips in the prison, there's probably, I didn't know this at the time, but I'm cleaning officer and they said, right, Thursday on the hot plate, you're on chips. So I'm on chips and I'm dishing the chips out. And they're coming along, coming through. And you haven't really got time to be on checking everybody out. So I scoop onto the plate, getting the next scoop ready and they're moving along the hot plate. So unbeknown to me, Andy's coming through and I get a scoop of chips, put them onto his plate, getting them ready for the next one. And it's still stood there looking at me. And he goes, are you fucking counting them? So I said, I have got time to count on me. Move along. And with that, I looked. The whole hot plate just went quiet. The prisoner just froze. And I'm thinking, I think I might have taken the wrong way. Anyway, he walked out and walked off. Somebody said something to him outside and he went up on the landing. And the officer next to me said, you don't know how fucking lucky you are. I said, what? He said, he's notorious for tipping the hot plate or smashing the hot plate. He said he does it all the time, over food. He said, I don't know how you got away with it. A few year later, when he became a gym older, actually, and we had a little conversation about it and I said, I don't remember the time. And he was laughing and he said, yeah, I remember. And I said, how come you didn't tip the hot plate up? You was notorious for it. How come you didn't do it? I said, no, don't get me wrong. I'm glad you didn't. And he said, to be honest, you know, he said, I know you didn't say it in any malice. You were saying it was a bit of a joke. He said, it did piss me off. He said, but he said there was something about you that maybe I don't want to eat him. He said some people might say that and they'd be saying it with malice and just jogging you on. He said, but I knew it wasn't that way. Was he in for murder? Yeah, he was in for murder, Andy, yeah. So what happens then when they free escape? Was there any incline with anybody who was going to escape or is it just out so out of the ordinary? I think some of the prisoners probably knew because apparently, allegedly, they were trying to go three days before they escaped. I wish they had to them because I weren't on duty. The night that they went, they were. But apparently, on the night that they tried, at the back of the gym, they had a little boxing bag and a little room with a door that went out onto exercise yard. Well, unbun on to us, they've made a key. Willie Unzu was one of them who escaped. It was a bit... It's very intelligent, like, almost a bit. A sciencey, like, you know where you get this nutty professor. A strange character, not many, again, not many of the prisoners had anything to do with him. It was just a bit weird. Bit of a weird character. And unbun on to me as well at the time, otherwise I might have been watching a little bit more carefully. I only found out later when I went to Longlartin after Parkhurst. When he came en route to Parkhurst from Longlartin, a ladw became my friend later in life, Chris Goddard, another PEI from Longlartin. He took him hostage en route to Parkhurst with a little syringe, put it to his neck, and got off the van. By the time he got off the van, the police cost him, but he ended up, he didn't get away, but he ended up at Parkhurst. So he had got previous for trying to escape, but I wasn't aware of that at the time. So there was him and another lad called Rawls, who, again, I knew from down the gym, was quite quiet. I think it's significant, really. You want to put all three together. If you was going to say, three people are going to escape from this prison, they're probably a pattern, maybe Andy, because of his power. And I think he was there really for getting through the fence and bending the fence, because he had that power to do that. So I know three days before they tried this key that they made, tried to get out of the bank, and it wouldn't open the door, apparently. This is all what I found out later off different prisons that confided in it. So I know they tried to get out, couldn't get out, abolished it, and then tried again on the 3rd of January, I think it was, if memory serves me well. So the 3rd of January, obviously, on trying to be out for New Year. So the 3rd of January, they actually tried the key, they got out, they had gone. And on the night I was on duty, and the gym was absolutely rammed with maximum numbers. A lot of the big hitters were down there as well, like the Victor Arks, like Kevin Browns, and loads of the infamous characters were down there. We used to have a Julia officer, and we used to bring the prisoners over to the gym, so they'd bring them down, count them off the wings, count them into the gym and give them the numbers, and then they had a box where he would sit, give them the numbers on the floor, and then we'd be doing our thing. One of the PEIs were in the sports hall that night, which was me, refereeing five aside, another one in the weights room, supervised or joining in, and one just floating between. So at the end of the gym, again unbeknown to us, those three Rose, Andy and Williams were all down the gym. We knew they would sit and come in the gym, but didn't really know the word about it, because none of them played football, so they weren't in the sports hall with me. So at the end of the session, because the other prisoners aren't aware of what's going on now, they all get rammed into that little holding area waiting for movement back to the wings, and because they know what's going on, they're all getting onto the Julia officer saying, open the fucking door, I want to get back, I've got my food on, go get back to the wing. So they're giving it in. So with that, he's going and trying to count them out, worse sweeping up behind, making sure that the gym's clear. So as far as we're concerned when we've done the rounds, the gym's clear to get as locked as normal. So they all go back to the wing and then a catastrophe of errors, really. As they're going onto the wing, there's normally an officer there, me to count some back on the wing, roll correct, blah, blah, blah. And then we get a second gym. So the second gym are now down, and still nobody's aware that three of them have gone. So we now do a second gym for an hour. Do an hour in the gym, get rid of that class, just as we're going to get rid of the class, we get this alarm bell going off, alert, and the dog under have found an awl in the fence. So by then, they'd probably had an hour and a half. Unbeknown to them, if they'd have gone straight for the ferry, they'd been off the island. As it happened, Rose said that he could fly a plane. So he went through a little airport on the island called Binstead Airport. So he went over to Binstead Airport, tried to start a plane. Later on when Andy Roger again, I met him years later, I spoke to him about it, and I said, Andy, I said, you know, why don't you just go straight off the island? Why don't you go for a plane? He said, to be honest, Phil, he said, I wanted to fucking kill him when we tried that plane and he couldn't even get it started. He said, couldn't you just start it? No, I'm flying. Anyway, five days later, there was a lodge for five days, and I lived at a little place a village called Wotton on the island, and there was actually a court about three miles from my house, where they were just trying to wade through water, and their plan then was to try and go and get a boat, but an officer off duty had spotted them, notified the police, and that was it. That was the game up. Prydyn Officer, I've seen them. And I'll do you, Officer. See, because you're on shift that night, the question marks become above the prison officer's heads as if could they be involved? Do you get asked those questions as well? Yeah, massive investigation, and repercussions were sent shopwaves all across the whole service. To be honest, Parkhurst, really, should have been shut down for a while. There are so much refurbishment going on. It's just like a building site, really. So in many ways there's an accident where to happen. But here's the exclusive, really. Two years before those three went, and I never, and you Google it, and you do anything, you can never find this. I've Googled it, I can't say anything about it, but another person escaped a cat here off the island at Parkhurst, a life called Pewter. I think it was Terry Pewter, or my bin his brother. He was in the laundry, and whether he got out in the back of the laundry banner just before rule check, or whether it was a bin wagon, because the bin wagon used to come in, empty all the bins, and then go back out, and it used to happen before rule was correct. So I think he either got out in the back of the bin wagon, or back in the laundry van, and it was just completely kept quiet. Never heard anything about it. Like the three that escaped, it's massive. I mean, they created a film about it, but he got off the island. I think he was lifted in London probably about two weeks later. But nobody ever heard, never heard of his name. So we see the three guys that got caught. Where did they go after that? They got caught, they did court. I did a couple of court runs, actually, on the case, which was held near Belmarsh, at the court near Belmarsh. I did a couple of court hearings there. Rose was in there, because I had to be a witness. In the end, they didn't call me to give any evidence, but when I was up in the viewing gallery, I remember Rose saying one word with the judge, and he said, I object. I don't want him to sit up there. And as I go, all right with Rose, and he said object, and the judge said, no, I'll tell you the case. He's not giving evidence anymore, so I was allowed to sit there. So I watched the trial unfold. They went not guilty of all things as well, you know. Just a piece of the system? Yeah, I think so. And they went, I'm glad they did. So they've been caught outside that prison? But they're already doing leifers, will they know it? Yeah, yeah. So I think they probably thought it was so war. It gets them a few extra days out of prison, don't it? Yeah, and it got me a few days out as well, and some soaps, so that wasn't bothered to do it. I was quite pleased, but I was shot, and I was quite pleased. How does that change part cost then? After that, does it become stricter? It changes it, and to be honest, a lot of the other prisoners weren't happy about the escape, because at the time, Parkhurst was the go-to jail. People from all over the country, really, when you talk to Yammy, when you talk to Yammy and that, they would pay money if they could to try and get to Parkhurst, because it was so laid-back and liberal. I mean, the governor at the time, John Marriott, God rest his soul, he was a very liberal man, used to wear the red labour tie. A lovely man, I knew him socially as well as a governor. But if anything, lovely man, but too nice, really, to be a governor. He'd come down and have a game at Bambenton in the gym with high-profile prisoners. Nice guy that way, and had a lot of great thoughts and visions about prison. But probably just went a little bit too far, so where the line is, really. I've seen it over the 30 years. I've seen it go too far one way and too far the other way. Very rarely does it sit where it should sit in the middle. Sean, I thought it would not be too nice. Exactly, yeah. There's got to be a line to keep the prison safe. If prisoners are just left to run riot or to do whatever they want, it becomes quite an unsafe place to be. And I think most prisoners don't like it that way either. You might get some of the bullies that might like it. The top dogs might like it. But anyone just wanting to get on and do the bird and complete the sentence wouldn't like it. But at a time when John was there, I mean, we had outside Peacock Gym coming in, people were mass and wrestlers coming in. We had outside football teams which were great. But the security, I would say, for a cat here prison was quite lax. It was especially where there had been a building site as well. But the ramifications of the escape just sent shot ways. There was a Liamont inquiry after the escape and that just changed the whole prison service. The line started to move back. I don't think long line was ever the same jail as it was then. It came out, it was almost immediately removed from the cat here system. To be honest, I preferred it when it was cat here even though it was probably a bit too far. You had M Wing at the time, which was a bit dark and a lot of the big characters on there. You had Charlie Bronson. What was Charlie like? I liked him, you know. I shouldn't say that, I shouldn't have. Nah, quit it. If you like them, you like something. Yeah, but most people I would say, how do you like Charlie Bronson? I think the majority of people who come into his life speak highly of him. You know what? I didn't have massive dealings with him but the dealings I had, I found him a character. I found him a product. And because we had that same, you know, love for training really, because he did, he just loved training. And anybody that trained had a common goal with him. So I got on quite well with him. I talked to him about his artwork and bits and bobs. Never had a long period with him because he never really had. The longest I had with Charlie was when I first went there and I was in the gym for the first few months before he actually got stabbed on the yard there. I was actually on the yard the day he got stabbed. What was that like? Sad, really, you know. I was shocked that it happened as well. Although I think looking back, I think it probably happened because at the time we had the Irish, I don't know if you've heard the Irish, the Turkish family, they were the ones mainly running the prison. So they were the top dogs, certainly on B-wing, the big wing. And they had Bill the Bond at the time. I don't remember Bill the Bond. Bill the Bond should mention him really, he's the most intimidating, fearsome man I ever met. But again, I quite liked him. Before I got back to Charlie, I was so about Bill the Bond. Bill used to be very volatile. He'd have a drink and a bit of drugs, always on the look for drugs. But he'd been in the ring with some real big fighters. He'd been in the ring with Muhammad Ali. Only sparring, but because he could take a punch and give a punch, he was a real handy. Probably the hardest man I've ever met in prison. Everybody feared him, but unlike Charlie, Bill liked to have a bit of a box, really. And I think the Irish were a little bit of his box. And he liked to work under that. So why they got an element of control with Bill? All the resting piece as well, Bill. But they have an element of control with Bill. With Charlie, you didn't have that element of control. I think Bill could be a loose cannon, but they had that control with him. Whereas Charlie, I don't think anybody really controlled him. He was his own man that way. So I think with that, and I don't know the ins and outs of why he got stabbed, but it certainly wasn't just to do with the lad who stabbed him. Again, he's dead now as well. He sadly passed away years later. How strain is it on your life, see if a prison officer is on, a lot of them struggle with PTSD, because police officers are on that as well. People can say what they want about them, but the shit that they have to see, the suicides, the stabbing, the shootings, the abuse, how hard is it on your own mind when you go home with that? Can you block it off and shut off when you go home? I think I must have done, because I saw a little bit of Sam. Sam's worth. He's a funny. I saw a bit of his interview with him, a word from completely different angles really, and that's why I contacted you, because my perspective is completely different to his. My perspective is, I had 30 years and for probably 29 of them, I just had fun. I saw suicides when I was in black and white for that first year. I saw people kill themselves and hang in. It did bother you, but to be honest, the good experiences in prison for me far outweade any bad, far outweade it. That's a good thing then. Do you think that's because of the way you see the world though? I think partly and partly because I'm not in black and white. I spent most of my career 27 years of it in a track suit. So I was not a uniform. I don't see it. I've done an escort before with some of the prison I was in years ago. I'd get on the escort because when I did an escort, it was overtime. I'd have to put black and white. I'd get on the escort and go and pick him up and take him up and he goes, I didn't realise he was a screw. That's how it was. I had that a couple of times. I said, of course, what do you think it was? He said, I just thought he was a... He said I thought he was a penny-eyes, but he said, stupidly, he said, but I never thought of you as a screw. I've had loads of... my prisoners say, you know, I don't see you as a screw. In another life, we'd have been friends. What's it like taking prisoners to funerals? Oh, God. Is that hard work? It's hard, isn't it? I did about three funerals. The first funeral that I did, bearing in mind the first escort that I ever did on Hurt Long Lart, when I was in Black and White, it was the first experience of taking somebody outside the walls. We had to go to a council estate in Brighton, and this council estate was rough. A bit like where I was brought up, to be honest. So we'd take him there, and I had a word with him before, and said, look, you know, you've got to stay on the cuff. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. And I thought at the time, I've gone all right with him, but I didn't know him that well. He didn't come down to the gym or anything, so he was off a different wing, or an escort on my wing. So we'd get some visiting his dying grandma. So his grandma's there, and we'd go in and there's lots of people coming in and out, and there's signs of a bit of pressure on saying, let him off the cuff. He said, grandma, you should let him off the fucking cuff. What are you doing? So the SO said, look, I'm cuffed to him. I said, I'm not coming off the cuff. And he said, I think we should, you know, let him have five minutes. I'm not coming off the cuff. I just had a bad feeling about it. I didn't trust him. Didn't have really a good rapport with him, and he was a bit of a scrawl. Anyway, on the way back to the prison after the visit, he kept asking to go and visit his sister. I said, nah, we're going back. We got back. Three weeks later, he has another escort to see his grandma. Yeah, so I'll let him off the cuff, and he's off. He did a runner. And I just thought, and so, bearing in mind that that was my first and only real experience at Parkhurst, I'll end up along that, and I've done a few years now. And I've thrown him with this lad called Pedro. Notorious prisoner from a notorious area of Birmingham called Hansworth. Really rough area. Where the prison is really. And I don't know whether you know it, even some of the prison officers at Birmingham have been shot at coming out of the gate there. So he's a notorious area. But Pedro I really got home with, had a rapport with him, thrown with him, and his training partner, Felix, Fraser, they called him. So I got on with him and had a rapport. They came down the gym one day, and Fraser always trained with Pedro. So I said to him, well, it's Pedro this morning. And he said, ah, he's not down. He said, his son's been shot. I said, ah. And he said, so he's editing bits, like he's applied to go to a funeral, and they won't let him go. And he said, so he's editing bits, like he's applied to go to a funeral, and they won't let him go. So I said, ah. And I said, who's he applied to? He said, security, the number one. He knocked him back. He said, because it'll be in Amsworth, which is a rough area. So I said, I'll see what I can do for him. I don't know whether it'll work, but I'll go and have a word with security. I knew the governor in security quite well. Rob looks what he's called. So I went down, I said, Rob said, Pedro. I said, I trained with him regularly. I said, I think I know him well enough to be all right. I volunteered to take him on the escrow to the funeral. And he said, look, Phil, he said, we tried, we spoke to the police. They're not prepared to man it. He said, they don't want to go anywhere near it. And I said, well, that's a good thing, isn't it? He went, I'm going to laugh. I said, well, no, I said, because I'd rather take him and not have the police around. I said, because I just antagonise the situation. I said, we should keep it low profile. I know a bit of PEI will come with me. I've spoke to him. He'll volunteer to do it with me. And he said, right, he said, if you get an SO though, volunteer for it. I'll let you do it. But it's on your head be it. So if it goes wrong, it's your job. So I said, all right then. So he looked at me, thinking I'd back out. So the next day I saw Pedro, I said, I've gone and had a word, Pedro. They're going to let you go, I think. And he went, well, I've been told not. I said, well, I volunteered to do it with you. I said, I'll get home with you. I said, as long as you give me your word that, you know, I said, I know where it's at, in-hands worse, going to be roast, going to be, and I said to be quite frank, I'm probably going to be the only white man there. And he said, he said, all right, he said, you know, you're not going to get any problem from me, Phil. He said, I just respect that you've done that for me. And I'll go to the funeral. So anyway, I've got clearance on the morning that the funeral went to get him. Me and my pal Ralph Taylor had had a word. He said, I'll volunteer to do, could be able to go to a chapel of rest as well. He said, I'll volunteer to film the cup in the chapel of rest and you do the rest of the funeral. So I said, OK. So he goes to the chapel of rest and Pedro's a tough man, really. So anyway, before that, we're coming out of the reception. The band pulls out of the prison. I'm talking to Pedro saying, I know it's going to be a tough day. I know it's going to be hard. I'll be cuffed together. I explain what will be going on throughout the day. I'll be cuffed at the funeral in the ground in the service. He said, that's fine, Phil. He said, for today, Phil. He said, anyway, I'll think of you as a mate anyway. He said, but for today, he said, I'll just introduce you as Phil, my mate. So that's fine by me. So just do whatever you've got to do. That's all that I ask is, you just respect what I've done for you and you come back with us at the end of the day. And I said, also, we've been told we can't take you to the wake. He said, that's fine. I don't want to go to the wake anyway. So it's okay. So we're pulling out of the prison, and all of a sudden I haven't got a fuck's sake. So Pedro, you all right? He got Phil, he said, he was agitated. He said, I've left. He said, I've made something for my lad that I'm going to coffin in the ground. He said, I've fucking left it in reception. And the asshole said, we can't go back for it. And I said, this could make a break of the day, really. I said, Pedro, I'm going to see if I can go back. So the van stayed there, I'm going to go on the radio, the driver, and said, look, I'm coming back in, I'm going to reception, and I picked up a little thing that he'd made like a little cross that he'd moved some fabric around. Quite a pretty little thing. So I brought it back. I said, Pedro, I've got it. I had it right after me when we got there. OK. So we gave him the cross and everything. We got to Chappell Ave. Ralph's cough to him and goes into the Chappell Ave, and I just hear him breathe down. And it was all awful to hear him just breaking down in there. And I'm thinking as well about Ralph being in that situation with him because you cough to him. You don't know his son. We used him to watch him breathe down like that. Ac rwy'n creu yw'n arfer o'r dweud ac rwy'n yn yr yrwch, rwy'n creu'r gweithio. Rwy'n creu'r gweithio, rwy'n creu'r gweithio. Rwy'n creu'r gweithio'r ddechrau. Mae'r dweud yn ddechrau. Mae hwnna fyddor gondol, ddim. Mae'r ddechrau, mae'r dweud, mae'r ffnogi sydd o'r dweud. Ond, mae'r ddechrau o'r dweud wedi'n ddechrau. Fy yw'r dweud o'u cyffredin ni, dwi'n gweithio. ac amdano i mi, rwy'n soeloddd a'r deckau'r mawr, yng Nghymru yn yma. Rwy'n eich mhagaf o'r rhan y gallu. Rwy'n gofio ac rwy'n sall o sall o sall o sall o sall. Rwy'n golygu wrth i rwy foodyn yn yma a'r byw, rydym i'n dda. Celly, rwy'n golygu, yw'n golygu'n sall o sall o sall o sall o sall o sall o sallig. Rwy'n golygu. Dyna'n arwch, ydyna'n cael am yr aflwdech. Rydych chi'n bwysig a'r bwysig ynghyrch a'r arwch i gael i ymddangos gerog. Fudodd yn gymsig. Mae ydych yn gweithio fel fod yn fydag i gael. Yn yma, pedws i'n deud, bod yn ymddangos. Mae'n gweithio fe ddim sy'n pwysig, ac mae'n ddim yn gweithio fel. Mae'n gweithio dal o'r gymryd, ac mae'n credu bod gallwn ni'n arwch yn yn deud. Mae'r dda, mae'n gweithio fel dda, mae'n gweithio fel! I've got called to the governor's office a few days later, giving a £50 voucher for what we did, and probably about two years later, was the next time he heard of Pedro, and I got a long letter of him just thanking me for everything I did. How hard does that, when you see some prisoners, not able to get to see their mum or their kids? If you can understand as well, especially if they're high profile, they're used to this track as a naper, they've done some terrible things that, as much as you can be friends with them, I've got family and friends still in prison, I'm good friends with murderers, bank robbers, it's not that, they're good people, but again, they've still got that mind as if, were you nervous that whole day? Yeah, I was on 10 trucks, and certainly the SO was. What made you trust them so much? Just the relationship they were built up. Especially if you had an escape, and you were working at the great escape, people would start to think it was fucking full, working with the coins. That's right. But he wasn't the only one as well, I did that three times while I was there, and got a letter off all of them, and the old came back, never had a problem. I always got one of my colleagues, because we'd get home with them to go with me, and the other one that I did with him, exactly the same thing, quite a harrowing experience to his mother's funeral. But again, ended the same way, just come back, no problems at all. Because I had no raise of smith on his son passed away, and he never got let out, but that changed him to be a better person as well, because he started making changes in his life. How hard it is for a prisoner that they end up smashing up the gaffer to reduce the acceptor? See that a lot in there? I've had a few where I volunteered and they didn't get to go as well, Lee Rusher. He's quite a high-profile, high-risk prisoner. He was part of the biggest heist in London when they got away, and I think there's still 30-odd million pounds missing of it. Is that Lee Murray and that involved Lee Murray? I think it was, yeah, with Lee Murray, and Jet Bookpapa. 56 million? Yeah, they had the band there, they couldn't get it all in. It had to leave some of the cash. There was more money than expected to be there. Well, I've gone really well with Lee through him with him, and his cordy Jet Bookpapa. You know, I've heard from Jet since he got out. It was like I got out no longer. He sent me a wedding for who he's got married over in Albania. So I heard from him as well, which was nice. I've gone really well with him. Well, Lee Rusher, I volunteered to do an escort when one of his family died. A sport to him, but they won't let him go. He appreciated that ride and did my bit, but he didn't kick off or anything. Sean Riley, another one that I did, I volunteered, and they won't let him go. But again, I pushed as far as I could to try and get to do it. A change of number one governor, sometimes they're prepared to take a little bit of a risk. Another time they always are on the side of caution. But have you ever attacked an info? No, I had, in my first six months when I was at Parkhurst, I had a contract on me. I don't know, there's a lad called Cyrus, and he was quite notorious. It wasn't a big hit, but he was a bit of a droogie. And I think it was just something or other like, he wanted a blade, a razor. And I said it one for one, so I had to have his razor to give him a razor. He said, well, I haven't got it, and I said, well, I can't give you one. It was as simple as that. And then, I think it was about three days later, I got a phone call, got to security, and I went down there and said, we've had information from good sources that you've had a contract by on you. I said, all right. And he said who it was, and he said what was the background. And so the only real communication about it was when he came to me, I was cleaning off. And he came to me and said, can I have a blade, a razor? It was one for one, and he didn't have one to give me, so I didn't give him it. And he said, it's a bit steep to put a contract on you. He said, well, with that word, there is a contract by it on you. So with that, I was always worried. He was always giving me the eye every time I was on the wing. I was worried where he was. And when he said, would you have a fright? And that was one time where, because at the time in the 90s, Park is just quite a volatile place with lots of weapons on the wings. And so I was always mindful of where he was. It was on his landing, or I was going down. Always worried where he was, or any associates of his. If he was approaching me, I'd always be a bit cautious. Os yw os fain i'n ffosun am ffreson? Probabili yn Irish, when I first got the old boy, he just caught up and killed himself. And I opened the door that morning, and he was just, when I went in to try and help, and said that he'd already gone. But that's the worst thing I've ever seen, the blood was just dull over there everywhere. That's the worst thing I've ever seen. And to be honest, it probably helped me that I didn't really know him or have a rapport with him. If that had happened to somebody who had had a good rapport with him, it probably would have affected me more. So I suppose I disassociated myself with it a bit easier that way. Now it's still alive and you're still seeing that, and it's harrowing to see. But yeah, that was probably the worst thing looking back. Do you see a lot of prison officers leaving the job because it's just too much? Now there's lots of prison officers leaving. Years ago, you never got any prison officers leave, really. It was a career. So you join the job and you see people do 25, 30 years. I don't think you'll see that anymore because the way they've changed it, the structure of everything, they've cut back on the pensions. It's not so much of a career that's been made where you'll get people join the job for three years and leave a year and leave. You get something to do three months and leave. You're never really here of that. But you've got now, which is quite frightening, really. I wonder where the service is going. You've got to experience staff just soon. I've had enough on going there. I'm going to get another job. Even like jobs working in a supermarket or being cute. I think I was unheard of before. So that's how bad it's got. I was so sure of staff, now, I believe. What was it like? Did you ever work on the block? People had dubbed up some 24 hours a day. I did a few things on the block. One of the things I don't ever heard of as a tailor to call him Danger, is my mountain of a man is six foot eight, built like a barn door, is in for murder. And again, I had a good rapport with that train with him, going with a couple of extra gym sessions here and there, where I called and where I was allowed. And this is where having a good relationship can save the day as well with a prisoner. So he's down in the block. I have worked at the block, but just done odd shifts that I was doing all the time. Never was somewhere where I would volunteer to work, because it's not really my type of thing. I went down the block one day, and there was a prisoner that I had a bit of a rapport with. I'm rubbing him down, so there's two other officers stuck at the side of me, I'm rubbing him down. And he just starts engaging in conversation, because he knows me, talking about training. And then the officer next to me just says, because he, like, moved. And he said, move again like that and you fucking would jump all over you. And I was like, really? What's the need for that? I said, it's all right. And then after, we had a conversation about doing a training programme for him in the pad, because obviously you can't get to the gym when you're in the block. So I did a training programme for him. And I went down to the office after, and I said, what was that for? They said, he wasn't being aggressive with me. He said, he'd done it before though. I said, but he wasn't going to do it. He wasn't going to jump on me. And I just thought then that it wouldn't be the job for me. It's not. Some people are that type of character. They join the job. And some bullies as well, really. They join the job to do that. That wasn't me. I preferred talking to people. But going back to Ezra, it goes down to the block this one there. And again, I'm doing an escort. So I'm in black and white. But I don't know what escort I'm doing. So I get down the block. There's a lad there, Neil Barnes, down the block, but he comes to the gym. So I know him. He's an officer. So I said to him, who was it we're taking? And he says, oh, fuck it's Ezra Taylor. Danger. So I said, all right. I said, that's all right, isn't it? And he said, nah. I said, we're taking him to Whitemore. At Whitemore, he'd come out of his cell and he'd just knocked over about seven prison officers. So he was on a charge for that. And he said, he's refusing to go. He said, you're going to be a fucking nightmare. He said, we're going to have to fight him onto the van. We've asked if we can do a video link. The judge has turned it down. He said, we're going to have to fucking fight him on the van. I said, well, I'm going to get on all right with him. I said, I'll have a word with him. So he said, all right. You're going to have a word with him. So I got off and the asshole said, well, I said, I'm going to have a word with Danger. So he said, all right. I wouldn't open the door. Not open the door back up, just open the flap on the door. He said, Danger, you went, all right Phil, what's up? I said, my mother yes, go on mate. I'll take you to Whitemore. I said, then I've just been told that you're not going to go. He said, don't get me twisted. He said, I know when I get to fucking Whitemore, they're going to be jumping all over me. He said, for what I did. I don't want to fight you on to a fan. That's what we're going to have to do if you say you're not going. I don't want to do that. We get on. I said, I'm telling you now, the hell makes you and nothing happens to you while you're in those old themselves down there or anything. I'm telling you now, nothing will happen. And he said, I'll come. So I said, OK, so I went back to Neil Bann and said he's coming. He went, what? I said he's coming. So I just had a word. I got on all right with him. I said, but I'll tell you what, nothing's happening to him at all. I said, I'll get what he's done, but he's there to be judged on that. Other people ain't going to get retribution for it. If they want to give him five years, 10 years, whatever they want to do, so be it. But nobody's going to be jumping all over his head when with her or anything. So he said, what? I said, I don't know, you know. I said, but I've just given my words on making sure it won't happen. I said, because if anything like that happened, you never get him there again. So anyway, we did the escort, got there and I'm cut to danger. And we're looking at the video evidence and I'm watching it. He's talking to me danger. He said, just watch here for now. He said, watch on the landing. And there's on the landing, you can clearly see an assault with the spot and the strike. Like this, a danger, giving it to him. So he said, this went on for about a week, giving it to me at the door, having it gone. I warned him, warned him and said what was going to happen. And he said, eventually he comes to me at the door that day. He said, that's what happened. The aftermath of it was horrendous. But I listened to your interview with Alan Lord and significantly I picked up on one thing with Alan. And I met Alan a few times. I wouldn't say we had a close relationship because nobody did. And I know he said he didn't get much gym at long line, which is probably why I didn't see him. But he said it was down to the PEIs. Well, I don't remember ever stopping from coming to the gym. I would never have stopped anybody. I'm not saying he wasn't stopped. But Alan Lord, I remember the one where he said his first day in strange ways, he was going in the cell and he got a clump on the back of the head and said, getting near your black murdering bastard. Well, that can form the rest of your days, which probably did for Alan as well. So he's coming out and fighting every time. Makes the matter for it. Did you see a lot of bullies with the prison officers kind of? Yeah. With the racist comments are battering people just for the sake of it. I didn't really see racist comments, if I'm honest. But since leaving the service, I no doubt know that racism exists just from little things that I see or hear. And it surprises me really. But why I put it in a question for a friend of mine as well, who's now retired. He was a bit like me, treat people fairly, get respect back. He was a little bit like me. I said to him, I said, I look back now. I never saw any racism off officers. But now I see certain comments on social media, I think, racist. And it surprises me. And he said, I see the same. He said, but I think what it is, birds of a feather flock together. He said they would have that conversation with like-minded people. But because they know you or I would pick them up on it, I'll say something, say, what the fuck are you saying? He said they wouldn't ever speak like I am from here. So I would never say racism never existed, I know it did. What about the Mufti mob? The Mufti? I've been Mufti mob. Because I've had people on it say they're ruthless. People say they kill people, but they've got the right gears on. They've got the balaclavas man. What is actually the Mufti's job? The Mufti job is CNA, but they're specialist trained. So you go away on a specialist course. So if they've got a problem like an incident at a height or an Austrian situation, the Mufti, as you call it, but the CNA, they will be called in a specialist team or specialist equipment to try and talk about all fight or go in. Like the Mufti squad that came in when Alan Lord was on the roof. And all the Mufti squad then, they tried to go in on the second day and they were stopped from going in. If they had done it, I think it would have been stopped earlier. As soon as they got there, they would have gone in. But it was stopped and it escalated too far then. They couldn't actually get to them or anything. Well, the Mufti squad really is there for when things have gone beyond when there's a prison riot, like the one they had at Lonellar in Molyw, just before I was finishing there. We had three riots in the space of 18 months. What happens when there's a riot in prison? Everything else gets locked down. So say a wing gets up and there's a riot everywhere else is locked down. For instance, one of the riots, we had a gym class on on the night and we got hurt over the radio. All available staff. As soon as you know all available staff reports of the wing, you know the problem. Anyway, it's gone off completely, massive riot there. The staff had to withdraw. As soon as the staff withdraw really, like that, then the Mufti, the CNR teams from all over the other prisons would have come. And then start making a plan of action to go in and take the prison back. How much staff are on that prison? You would have, because obviously you've not just got prison staff, you've got probation staff, but just officers and uniform staff. You would have about, again, five, six hundred staff. What about celebrities? Any of us come across any celebrities in prison? Yeah, quite a few, Ronnie O'Sullivan's dad. I know what you say, he's not a celebrity, but he was very much just because of his... These friends with John Marcy, that guy Blink from Glasgow as well, they were all in. Good character, you know. How was Ronnie O'Sullivan's dad? Great character, great character. He's a good sportsman as well, you know. For his age he was getting quite old at the time when I met him. But he still played football tennis, a good tennis player. Not many people beat him at tennis. But very quick-witted. If you said something straight back with a line, like... How was it when he's seen his son stuff, like one-end trophies, and being a great snooker player of all time? Well, along that, and the colleague of mine, Martin Beale, he actually arranged, and his son and Stephen Endree, and that came into the prison gym, and all the snooker tables put in there. And we had a full day event with all the... Jimmy White came in. He's a legend. Yeah, Jimmy White came in. So that's why a lot of celebrities come in the prison at the time. With just visiting this one's life. We had a few footballers come in, Dion Dublin. What other slaves were in prison? In my time, I didn't really have many real slaves. I know a lot of slaves went, but because I was in a cat ear, most of the celebrities wouldn't really land in a cat ear. The first of prison. I mean, we had quite a lot of footballers and stuff, and I know some of them became gym-oldleys, the PE staff that I know spoke about them becoming gym-oldleys and that. How did you stick the job so long, Phil? That's a long time, man. I loved it. What did you love about that? The characters, they're... Every day was different, I'd go to work. I can't just say, in nearly 30 years, never once woke up out of bed and thought, I don't want to go to work. It was only because I got cancer that stopped my career, really. And even when I got diagnosed with cancer, my one goal every time I saw my consultant was, when do you think I'll be able to get back to work? The big seed didn't even stop yet. I still went back for five years after the big seed. How does a man who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, train dolly's life, eats well, is it cancer on the throat? Yeah. Did you question that? What was that? The thing from family? What was that? There's two different forms of throat cancer as well. One of them's a HPV. What's that mean? The human papillovirus. It's quite prevalent in young girls. They now vaccinate young girls up to the age of 14 against it. Because it's quite prevalent when women get cervical cancer. It's normal due to HPV. So I had a bit of a... My weakness, my achillesial, if you like, was women. For a ginger kid, I did all right. For a ginger kid growing up. I did all right on the latest one. And the HPV virus can be a form of having intercourse with a woman. Obviously going down on a woman. Too much pussy? What a fucking way to go there, isn't it? I just hope it was one of the good ones. You know what, when I was told, when somebody told me, it's too much pussy, licking pussy, that's giving that. I said, far off. Didn't believe it. But one of the film stars got it. And I was reading about it here and they said, HPV virus, they split up with his wife over it. Because they were saying, well, now I haven't got HPV virus. They split up over it. So my mate said to me, he said, that'll be HPV virus, you know. So I looked into it. And when I went to my consultant, I don't even know who my wife knows the full extent of this. But when I saw my consultant, I said, is the cancer HPV? And he confirmed that it was. That's mad. So you got cancer after... Be careful. Yeah, I'm okay now. Yeah, I'm mean, I'm mean. Fuck's sake, man. Any time you're scared to get an STD, fuck's sake, then... I saw that man, you should be worrying about the big C. All my friends, my nickname going through the service for years, was Lickamol Corry. And so I was there. After I got, I beat the cancer and they always said, oh, Lickamol Corry, you know, you got it. Is that just... Is that with sex or just muffin? Muffin. So I said, yeah. I'm Lickamol Corry PC before cancer. So ever since, never did it again. But it still returned 10 years later, and here I am. I've never heard of it. Yeah, that's true. So that's a true story. Honestly, true. That's madness. Yeah, so that's what you think the connection with your throat cancer is with Lickam Pussy? Yeah, 100%. 100%. Everybody in, washing their mouths now and brushing their teeth. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the dental on the tongue. All these filbastas lying in the can. You've started more than masses are giving them divorces now. Like, I said, there's two forms and it's all, get checked first, which one is. That's mad. But yeah, I was... I'm not proud to say it now because I'm aptly married. My wife's a lovely, lovely girl. And to be honest, I've treated her. I'm lucky it split up for two years because of it. Because of the way I was. I was coming back late. I didn't treat her right. And to be honest, I met her. One of my first days of long lying, I met my wife. Walked past the office. Did a second take. Just thought she was really nice. We got together on and off over time. But it was always me that ruined it by going off doing my own thing, seeing other women. Do you see yourself in your dad then? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I said that to her. When we split up for the two years, we got a little boy, Henry. And I remember saying to her, you know what, I've ruined it. Here I am, and I remember my dad, he went back to my mum about a year after splitting up. And he was with another woman, but he went back and said, look, would you give me another chance? My mum was no chance. My mum was a bad woman that way. She wouldn't forgive anything. And she said no way. And she's still friendly with him, going really well. But he said no chance. And then with that, so obviously I've messed up my relationship with her. And to be honest, I knew then she was my love of my life. But I was just trapped in this downward spiral What do you think that was? I think part of it was the, this was what Phil Currie had become or the watch film now you're going to. So it was all part of a show and act. We're going to club or pub to be a group of women. I'd be the one to go over and put the act on, get talking and then introduce friends to them. It's all a bit of show really. And it wasn't, and I ended up going off with one of them. And that's not provided. I look back now and I just think I had a brilliant wife and at the time I thought I was ruin this. I got a little son and I thought now I'm going to live my dad's life. I went back to Sarah same as my dad did with my mum. This was about a year later. I was saying I was with another woman then. She was wanting to get engaged, wanting to get married. I said to her look, she wants to get married, engaged. I said, I still love you I want to be with you. And she looked and said, I can't. I said, all my friends they all say I told you so. I said, I can't. She said, you know what they can say if I took you back again. I said yes, I had to smaller way. I got engaged. I was planning on getting married. I didn't want to do it. I kept virgin on a weekly basis even though I was there. I would always said to Sarah and my wife I would say look, there's any chance. And this one day I got a phone call offer bearing in mind I'm living with this other woman now. I got a phone call offer and said, fill it Sarah. I said, you know, is it too late? Can we give it a go? So with that, I just walked out of the front door I went back to her and said, do you mean it? She said, yeah, if you know if you can. I said, well, if I come back I'm telling you now, I'll just give you my word. I will never ever give you my word. I will never ever give you my word. I will never ever give you my word. I will never ever let anybody be able to throw it back at you saying we told you so. Never. Check that charming attitude then what if the woman is helped you as a prison officer? What if the men not in a gay way but just the manipulation side of things? Yeah, definitely. Been able to talk to somebody and get them round in a different way. Sweet them up. Yeah, no doubt about that. So you got the big C then and then you wanted to go straight back to what? But then you ended up in... What was the prison when you came back? I went back to long line. I was offered with cancer for just over a year. I had chemo, radio, 35 sessions. What was the percentage you survived? They gave me a 30% chance of it. How does that then change your whole outlook on life? Cos my old man passed with leukemia and I just watched him deteriorate. It doesn't affect me as much now because you always think the people around you the people you love will never go. And then you see them go in such a way where you never ever forget it. But it's just sad to see what you're thinking when you're in getting treatment and chemo and obviously you're fucking bald anyway before that so you wouldn't have to worry about shaving your hair. Funny enough when I saw the consultant and he said about the treatment that came on the radio and not a lot of people know that you can have, it's not just one one fits all. So he said that you'd be pleased to know that the chemotherapy that will put you on you won't lose your hair. I said well that's one side effect, I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't bother me. So anyway it was harsh but I remember seeing my dad towards the end of his life and we became estranged because my sister, her kids we lived on the Isle of Wight at the time of my kids and he had a fallout really with my daughter and he never bought her kids any presents for Christmas and birthdays but he still did mine. So I remember ringing him up and I said look, me and my sister are very close anyway. I said look, if you're going to buy one don't buy mine don't buy her kids presents don't buy mine. I said because it's not for it causes problems for me as I arrived and bother and from that day for probably about 15, 20 years I never saw or heard of him. Do you regret that? I do a bit. I do a bit but I also don't regret making my decision about that neither because I didn't feel right. You're stuck in the middle. Either way you're going to lose somebody. But the next time I saw my dad or spoke to him was a few weeks before he died I got a phone call at long line saying your dad's not got long I went up to see him with my sister and my brother but it was like almost like seeing a stranger really. Hope there's that affect you? It was hard, went to the funeral and all his side all the lady married all the grandchildren that side were mentioned but no mention of ours it was like saying they're watching somebody else's funeral bit sad but absurd really we all said after that was strange didn't seem like our dad Sad that and families divide Listen, some families are pains in ass whether it's your mum, dad you don't need to be with them if they're not making you feel good but I just think when people have those fallouts over pity shit it's sad because when you're lining your deathbed when you think you've got a 30% chance to live around you and that tells you that wait a minute I shouldn't have been stubborn that's all that comes down to stubbornness nobody want to make the first move and life goes that fast that you have 30 years in the prison system they've just flew by that's the mad thing about life is we never know when the big man up the stairs is ready for you and that's that you would never have thought you'd have had the big sea that fit strong, never drank, never smoked, bang so see when you got the old clear you just want to get straight back to work yeah, I had the sessions and the radiotherapy two weeks after you've finished the radiotherapy it still builds up in the system so that two weeks you're probably at your worst really and there's a real slow recovery back I mean the first three weeks I've became a therapy and radiotherapy and I went to the gym every morning for the first three weeks but anyway I've got all those back and they said you're all clear they say all clear but you're not all clear until five years really officially so there's no sign of cancer the clusters in remission of spores so my goal then was I said look as soon as I kind of get back to work I was still in my bed most of the day I ever walked from from me to you I was out of breath from being so fit and people, my wife was saying I don't think you'll get back so I've got to get back so I've got to get back to work that's what I do and I just strive for that normality and every day I come here I was fed through a pipe up my nose for a little while I come here eventually I started being able to have a little bit of yoga some protein drinks just forcing them down I started to try and do a little bit further walking but all the time my goal was to get back to work the governor at the time at the prison was a woman called Mr Carr and he was for one of them a better word a C-U-N-T horrible blow everybody hated him all the staff all the prisoners so times had changed in the prison it would just dismiss you like that if you could it didn't matter that I had cancer really if he could get rid of me it would stop me being on his sick record on his numbers he would do it so anyway on my first meeting with him I went into the prison sat down like me and you I had a POA representative with me and he said I need you back at work and I said well I need to be back at work so I was singing from the same mimsheet I said but at the minute I said I can I said I'm telling you now as soon as I I can be back at work I'll be here I said because I don't want to be at home I'm eating it I want to be normal so he said well you've had so long off now he said he said we're going to have to look at medical inefficiency which would mean I'd finish the job I said no I said I don't I don't want that I said I'll tell you what I've been off now for nearly six months I've obviously not had any leave this year I said I'm prepared to take my leave and be off sick so officially I've come off the sick record I'm still sick but I'll take my leave and he went really I said well that's the option that's the only option I'll do it and he got a piece of pen that I've formed and he said look sign there to say that you're volunteering to do this so I signed a piece of paper the Peer Wayblood said you shouldn't have to do this I said I don't care I said to be honest I don't want to go back down the gym anyway and then turned up and said well I've got all this lead to take it out they've just all been covering for me been brilliant with me throughout the prisoners and the staff raised nearly £20,000 for a piece of state of the art equipment for Birmingham Hospital I said well that much support of people I'm not going to go in the gym and said right I've been off all this time but I've got this lead to make up and then be off again so I said so suddenly I'm not I don't want it anyway when I get back to work I want to be at work I don't want my leave so he was a bit flabbergasted by it so anyway I went off went off and took all my leave at the end of that fortunately I thought I'm well enough to at least do and he said I don't to be fair to him then and I think because of what I did he said to me fill all I need from you just come in for an hour a day at first and just do whatever you can so they haven't been doing this filing cabinet and doing filing papers and I thought this is shit so I went to him and I said look I've done the couple of days of filing he said well he said not only are you well enough to be around prisoners I said well I haven't got a problem being around prisoners I said prisoners have supported me all the way through it I said I've had cards off prisoners sent to home and I've had cards off prisoners that have been moved on to other prisons that have sent to me home I had about 15 cards off prisoners so I haven't got a problem going there I said I'll work around the back I can do bits of work on the P course paper work I don't have to be on the gym floor so anyway I put it to P staff and they all just said yeah now I'll have him over here so then the week after I was back over in the prison I started to go into the gym and do a little bit meet prisoners again that I haven't seen for ages, for years gym oddlers and then the sting in the tail came not long after that to be honest I've been back started to build myself up started to get a physique again and then I went because the radiotherapy can cause bone damage so where I've had it it caused bone damage all around my jaw and my teeth that all started to break away I'd be eating something or and I'd just get bits of teeth so anyway I went to the dental hospital in Birmingham and they said they thought it might happen because of how much you had they said but we're going to have to take all your teeth out and they said well there was one way that had stopped me from thinking plus it this was going to be it because nobody was looking at me then so anyway so a day it was and they said to me do you want them all out do you want the top rack out and then the lower rack the week after or do you just want them all out in one so I just do it all in one so they had a look and they said look you have to go to Plymouth for hyperbaric oxygen therapy so you like to go in a diving chamber so I went there for six weeks to strengthen my jaw or to help try and do that I did that I still went to the gym every day when I was down there doing the hyperbaric every morning became good friends with the people in the gym started taking a few sessions so I was almost effectively a PDI don't know taking people on on classes and that so it was great so when I did the hyperbaric came back they took all my teeth out went home completely loads of blood coming out saw my son who was just brought down in tears he didn't recognise me and then obviously the government was saying well what are you doing about coming back to work so I said well once it's healed I'll come back but I had to do eight months without any teeth so I went back into work I saw a few other staff and a few staff who knew me well just walked straight past me I mean even now my jaw is sagged a little bit don't look anything like I used to facially but I walked past people and they walked straight past me you know even people who knew me well and one of the women the female officer she came to me and she said Phil you can't come to work like this said you're going to be working with prisoners you can't work like this I said why I'm going in choice anyway I said I don't want to leave the job I said I still want to do the job and so I went down the gym and I always remember that gym old way Dave Smith good lad Dave he then again in for murder but Dave was well connected in the prison as well he'd done a PE course got through the PE course and I set up a mentoring course as well so they'd do the PE course then we'd have them as a mentor on courses for other people so Dave was one of those who'd been a mentor so he's a mentor I go down and see Dave for the first time no teeth bearing in mind the last time I saw Dave was before going for treatment and he shook my hand and said Phil I just wish you all the best you're brilliant lad all the orders were there some of them in tears so after I went in my treatment come back no teeth now and Dave just come to me and said Phil he said I respect you he said you know that he said not a single prisoner in this prison will have a bad word to say about you he said that was before he said but if they do and anyone says anything come and see me and they never had anything in all the time nothing did they came back but did they not so you think you've got yourself again you've got a new set of nashers you're feeling good you're back working how did they come back one of my things when I got back into the prison one of my things was I said right when I did a bit of cycling as well as the wait train cause you say good in France for charity is that right yeah I went up mum mum two three times in the day how long did that take you probably about six hours what's the distance 1,190m I think it is all uphill all uphill it takes you 20 minutes to descend it and then you've got the three routes up it and it won't just me I mean if I was doing it on my own I'd do it quicker I did it with there's an app called Be Cool on your bike that you can do in the shed so you can practice it on a turbo and I did it in there in an hour and twenty so I've got myself as fit as I've ever been in my life after the big sea yeah I did a warm up a warm up ride the year before which was a tour of Yorkshire you know when the tour of France came to England and it started in Yorkshire so I did that exact same route with a group again for charity and I overrode one of my friends Munch and Munch did all the organ because when I first went into hospital and they said they got cancer I picked up a pamphlet bit like I did all them years ago when I joined the job and I saw this cyber knife thing where they're trying to raise money so I said to him look get the lads rallied round and he did that all the prisoners and staff 20,000 pounds for that and we were there for the opening event when it was open and everything which was great so anyway I did this event but I overrode Munch saying to somebody and some other people were telling me or you keep saying about how they'll hold back for you and make sure they complete it with you so I'm thinking fuck that they ain't gonna be waiting for me so I am on the bike I was on it all the time at home 10 o'clock at night I'd be hammering it on the bike again, it's the first time I've ever been alive Do you think that's what's kept you alive though? No doubt about it I mean I've no saliva that's why I carry a bottle and I struggle with my voice a little bit because of the radio therapy I got rid of all my saliva glands How much weight have you lost? I lost six seven stone at the point of my lowest from 16 stone to nine I'm now 13 So seem you're in recovery but for your height as well you should be about 15 So when it comes back what you thinking that? It came back and all it was just by chance James I was walking my dog which I got when I retired which is another story about the retirement What sort of dog? A Labradoodle I've got a Rottweiler mate he's a fucking nutcase Whenever I leave the job I'll get a dog I wouldn't have one before because I wanted to go walking so I walked all over in my pills mountains all over so I do the walking still going to the gym but I'm starting to get a bit of a pain in my back or my back when I'm walking and I sense that I've been missed by I don't get like a flutter around me in my heart so I'm thinking I've got a bit of a heart problem I'm thinking how's the heart? I'm fit as anything so she said why don't you just go to the hospital get it checked or ring the doctor so I rang the doctor and one one one is it and I'm on the phone and I described what it was and they said right stay where you are we've got a ambulance coming out to you I said nah I said don't need a ambulance I said you know it's not I've got a feeling I'm having a heart attack right now so I went through and she said no no we'll go and get some help ambulance came out and I was blue lighted to the hospital and when I saw the doctor he'd done some tests and he said we think you're having an aorta aneurysm well funny enough a real good friend of mine had had an aorta aneurysm not long ago a PI he actually had it at work so I knew what that was and I knew that's 1% chance of living if it's that so I'm thinking that so I'm thinking that so I'm quickly on the phone to my missus and said look this doesn't sound good I said they're talking about me having to have a blood transfusion and a heart transplant and do the valves and she went what I said nah so anyway he did some more checks went through the scan he came back and he said to me he said well it's not what we first thought we thought it was aneurysm an aorta aneurysm he said but we've found shadows on your lung and I went on the lung and he said but you know with your history that that's not good so anyway with more tests he did test after test did biopsies trying to get samples of the cells off the lung but didn't manage to get enough but eventually about 6 months later he diagnosed that the cancer had come back there seemed to think that a rogue cell at the time when they had the treatment might have escaped and moved around the body manifested in the lungs it had spread to a part of my rib and on my pancreas so I said well what does this mean he said it's stage 4 and incurable so it's not good so he said about having chemo and radio and I said what will they do to me with chemo and radio on all last time you were saying they had a 30% chance with it they were getting rid of it so there's no brain I'm going to go for it but this time what does it mean and he said it might give you an extra 3 month I said what 3 months but that 3 months might be in my bed you know being poorly being sick so I turned down the chemo and radio and decided to do my own thing and I don't know whether you know James or any of you viewers know and the best tick I could give him one research and everything cancer doesn't survive very well in a in an alkaline body it likes an acidic body to survive and spread and I've trained on my life really hard probably 6 days a week and I don't just mean going through the motions really high end training so with that what it does it oxygenates the body and alkalines the body now in my mind what I really believe is because of that and because of what I was doing the cancer has been there all that time but it's just moved so slowly every time I've been back to my specialist they go down my throat with a wire and a camera and have a look around my neck obviously there was nothing there but because that cell had escaped and gone down to my lung it was obviously there but they never scan me they did a scan me around that time they might have found something initially but because I kept myself so fit and I think that is why and now every time I go back all I say is you'll say how you're doing and say I'm doing well so I'm still going to the gym 5 days a week and you'll scratch it there and you'll look at the scan and it says well is there a look at the scan so I wouldn't to be honest you wouldn't think you'd be able to do that you shouldn't be where you are really and now I'm like two and a half years down the line with stage 4 still going back three month scans and every time I go back how you doing still going to the gym 5 days get my gel open in my back but other than that I still walk the dog ten mile a day get to the gym and it says you're a bit of an anomaly really it said we've not had another fill of chlorine before it said we don't really know where we're at with it that's the thing with doctors isn't that sometimes you don't have to always take what they say as gospel and everybody's got it in their body anyway they say some people actually have it but then it goes away itself you don't even know you've had it would you think triggers it obviously he says about the stuff at the start but what's your what do you think with your research not what triggers the big C can be various reasons but stress is definitely one of them a big factor food drink a lot of protein shakes would you look into the side of the berry the side of the berry more sugar ones definitely be part of it I've quite all dairy certainly your meat, your processed meat some processed foods all part of it there's definitely a big minefield out there I don't know if you've ever heard of the jaw tippins well I started following the jaw tippins protocol so I started having the dog women owners and I have those and started building myself up on them what about cannabis oil I have cannabis oil the doctors don't want to hear this stuff though no no because they're following protocol, they're going by the book and that's understandable they did for years and years but they're only following what their own order is they're not telling you to go out in nature do cold water therapy, exercise I do cold water therapy cannabis oil, all the natural things in life I do the Wim Hof breathing every day, cold showers and it's still keeping me alive you've only had three months to go so there's clearly something in it there's no doubt about it and the money that's involved with chemotherapy is trillions a year it's a money organisation as well I'm not a scientist or a doctor but I've spoken to enough people to realise something's not right I'm not a scientist or a doctor but I know I know where I am now I've got a friend of mine as well a neighbour and I told her about it and there were six of them diagnosed with breast cancer five of them had the chemo radiotherapy, all five have gone the lady who I befriended and talked about this trying to do the breathing the cold therapy, everything that I know, everything I had researched she's still here four years on and I saw her gardening the other day she was still gardening all of her friends have gone whenever I see it she said all my friends have gone she doesn't even see the doctor anymore they just struck her off so what was it that was feeling for you when you had to leave work a retire the leaving was the hardest thing ever and there was a way I left we had another government come in is that alright to mention it of course you can't mention anybody you want we had another government come in called Chloe Pearson we'd already heard on the grapevine that she was a nasty piece of work but I always think I'll take people as I find them I've heard people say to me that they think prisoners are a nasty piece of work and they've become a real good friend so I'll take people as I find them judge people, how I see them how they present themselves to me sometimes you dream with a bit of respect and you'll get that back anyway Chloe Pearson started we'd had Cartwright that I mentioned before that wasn't a very good governor and the description that we got on the grapevine before she came that this is Cartwright in the skirt and that's what was said about her anyway she came she came down the gym one of the first days I'd just had a P course finish so we had some of the lads in there I brought some which was just what we did those days I brought cheese and biscuits and different stuff because I'd asked the kitchen to do a buffet and generally we just cracked really so I'd bring out my own pocket I'd bring some cheese and biscuits bits and stuff in to put a decent spread on because it worked hard all year for it so anyway we'd done that and got cheese and biscuits in the other room after we'd done all the presentations I always try and ask the governor to come down to present the certificates so I thought ideal opportunity new governor trying to impress her make her realise how good the gym is on the work that we do she came down didn't really show a lot of interest the prisoner was saying she didn't really interested she went away after giving the certificates out and as she was going I said governor just to let you know I brought cheese and biscuits in for the prisoners er is that okay and she said well you do know that's trafficking so I said okay I won't give them so we didn't have it anywhere so I explained to her we've gone new governor I've got to follow what she said so anyway we did it the prisoners were fine about it they were bothered didn't like her for it because the initial reaction that again initial response she could have said just this once then but you know more happened again fine okay so that make it easier to make a decision to leave well that was just that was a yeah it did make my decision easier in the end but that wasn't the reason why I left we had as I mentioned we had the three riots in the space of 18 months real bad riots before the build up to that riot we got no end problems on the wing we had business coming down the gym we were going on with and there was one lad again from Birmingham part of the Johnson and Burgers you know the divide between them and there was another lad who was part of their gang so there's two different gangs on the landings on one of the wings there seems to be getting alright there's no problems but there's one of them that's just a nightmare wherever he goes China Walters he's called all right with them in the gym but it's just a nightmare and whatever wing he's on there'll be problems and even his own people his own post scored I had one lad come down the gym and he said to keep putting back on the fucking wing he said I've told people what I'm supposed to do he said I've told people he's putting back on there's going to be murders because we have to try and protect him people that want to kill him he said either be killed if she keeps bringing him back up he'd gone back off to the sake and then she'd made the decision again he was a bit of a almost become a bit of a project for her really to try and get him right and settled but it would never go out so she'd been back on the wing again looking at bringing him back up the other cons had noticed this he'd come down to the gym that day and he said fell he said and tell everybody what I'm supposed to do I put her security report in saying look if you bring him back up there's going to be problems blowing me old she brought him back up the wing almost went up we went over to answer the alarm bell I ran up and the whole landing had gone at each other and the staff had withdrawn so I said we need to get back on before it goes so we got back on I know the lad creeper quite well sports creeper said creeper get behind your doors everybody went behind the doors weren't just me I'm not a hero loads of others came on then gone behind the doors and that was the end of that but that was the start of it the week or two after there were six prisoners come out on the landing refusing to go back in during a peaceful demonstration I run up to an alarm bell and they just sat there saying we're not going away we want some dialogue we're talking we're fine and the number one governor sat there and she said get behind the door whatever means possible just get behind the doors and they were there and they were saying at the time they were saying it's because of her that this prison is going up it's because of her down there so if you've got no problem with any of you staff she's causing all the problems so when it went on again they tried to tell them what was going to go on because they hadn't their answer to that was put six of them back down the sake those six who stayed out went down to the sake and one by one a few of them came back up on different wings they had another incident minor incident and then one night on the build up to this it just kicked off completely and it all just stemmed again it's like I'm a big football fan Celtic fan Celtic might be down it doesn't happen to Celtic I'll use my football team I'm a Leeds fan so Leeds might be down the bottom end of the league and they get a new manager coming changes the way to communicate with the players and the team start to respond and move up the league all because of one man changing same players same in the prison really one person comes in changes the whole dynamics and that's what happens in the prison and I saw it over the 30 year period over and over again but I never saw it to this degree when she came in and it just completely ruined a well performing prison where it got loads of dialogue loads of meetings loads of councillation meetings with prisoners where it never really manifested itself and became a problem she did away with all that it was just all dictatorship with that they lost the wing I was in the gym that night when the wing went where the load of prisoners down the wing we had Terry Adams some of the big hitters in the gym the wing went up the musty crew came in the venture about three o'clock in the morning and managed to take back control of the wing managed to take back control of the wing to call it quite a long story short here at the end of that obviously I'm still struggling a little bit because with my saliva glands I still struggle to sleep but with this going on I've seen loads of staff just broken from the way she treated them she dismissed staff at the drop of a heart when they got the job back at her office she just said well they can have the job but they're not coming working in my prison so they'd have to go and work somewhere else it's just a nightmare so anyway the prison goes off at the end of this when they go back this happened a few times but Richard Vins at the time I don't know where he still is but he was the director general he arranged to come in and have a meeting with staff selected staff to discuss what had gone wrong in the prison from where it was to what's going on now so I made it known I want to be on the meeting so I saw the POA the POA chairman that's a union chairman and I saw him and I said I'm going on the meeting well they've been pocketed a little bit by the governor he should have been sacked really because of gross misconduct in the same one where he was there was a prisoner should have been on 15 minute watch and he'd not been to his cell door all night when he walked back on the camera now anybody else should have sacked him he kept his job but I know full why and everybody knew why he kept his job because she'd come in the pocket then he was hers then the union had no strength so whatever she said he was just her puppet whenever anybody was dismissed they had no union representative nobody to support them so all this was going on and I said I'm going to that meeting they tried the best to stop me I had phone calls down the prison saying Phil don't go to that meeting I said I'm going to her I said I'm going to tell them exactly what has gone on what's caused it and I said I don't care I've been known to the manager the governor to read before that I knew what was going to happen I knew if I went to that meeting and I put it on once I'd said that if he keeps her as a governor I'm finished thought I can't I won't be able to go by so I knew that I knew I was going to put it on the table and all the staff knew it as well I had letters of various staff saying anonymous letters same but you give that to them when you go so I said yeah everyone said you're really going to go to this meeting I said yeah I'm going I thought I've had cancer I've had a the only person actually had really was God and my consultant and what he might tell me only mind it he hadn't come back at this point but you know I've had cancer and I thought that so anyway the meeting was getting closer and closer I was in the classroom saying a classroom session and she walked through the door closed the door and she goes Phil can I have a word I said yeah so she said about you attending this meeting upon a vote of no confidence I said I haven't said about a vote of no confidence except with the union I said I'm not going to talk to no union I said I'm going to talk to your boss I'm going to tell him so she goes well you're going to get thrown under a boss I said okay I said bring the boss and she was fuming walked out in the office and then the lads were going I said tell me not to go to meeting I'm going I had a good friend he called me to his office said sit down Phil he said I know what it's about John and he said I've been called up to the governor's office I said yeah she said to me to use whatever influence I've got on you to stop you going to the meeting he said but to be honest he said I don't think you should go he said you know I thought well they're going to back her in the meeting I said how do you know that I said we don't know that unless somebody goes and tells him nobody else is going to do it he said well she's told me I said well tell you what John go back to her and tell her to get fucked I'm going to the meeting so he just shook his head and went back down to the gym anyway the day of the meeting started to come closer one part I should bring up actually going back before this brought on a lot of problems we had a prisoner called Jewel and I'd gone really well with him before he was on his way down to the gym and I said no I had Jewel and he'd been on the PE course and he came back out because there was not enough to play football so he said I don't want to do bikes right now I'm going back to the wing so I said hey Jewel I said what's going on with you I knew he'd smashed his cell up recently and had loads of problems I said I was looking for you for a gym mentor's job smashed in your cell up on that he said fill this prison's fucked he said just come right down the hill he said just to give you heads up he said you might want to get off early tonight so I went back down to the gym I said did Jewel say anything to you he said no so I rung security up I said I don't know what it means it might mean anything and the Jewel just came down to the gym you know it might be late home tonight it could be anything he said what did he say? well I said no and I said I don't know what it is he said I'll go home with him well I'll go over to the wing and have a word with him so along the way he went over to have a word with him and said Jewel it and with that three of them went on the net so anyway after that I got an investigation sheet through a charge sheet of the governor saying you're going to be charged with causing an incident at High so I said why did I cause the incident at High I said all I did was report what I'd been told I said there was another officer stood at the door with me I'm not going to name his name but he never even told anybody but I'm being accused of causing an incident at High for reporting it I said I didn't know what was going on I said in the morning another prisoner told me that my problem was over the weekend I put a report in about that because she was saying well why didn't you take him to the seg when he told you that I said he'd not done anything I said besides the seg's full you've got it full where would I put him so anyway that was the build up to it because I went to see her made an appointment to see the governor was invited in and was sat like this with me and you and she said take a seat said she said what's the problem Phil and I said look I've been given a charge here saying I caused an incident at High I said I've got people coming up to me officers saying I won't fucking report anything again because you're doing me for reporting something so I didn't know what it was security went over there they chose to go and see him and he went on the netting I haven't caused him to go on the netting so anyway she turned and she just said it's right and proper that you're investigated she said and by the way you brought more to my table today you self-rosted on the gym meaning we've self-rosted our own shifts so she started threatening me about taking that away and it went from there then really and then the other righter and then I said I'm going to the meeting the day the meeting came Richard Vince comes in the prison there's about 15 staff around the table I go and sit down he walks in I've seen him a few times he's gone alright with him and I've heard that he's supposed to have been quite a good governor so I thought I'd take my chance so everyone was saying good luck Phil you know how freaking brave doing it like I said it's not brave I said look around you I said the prisons on the floor said she's stairs there's not going to be anything left so I went to the meeting and he came in and she came in with him and I said before we start to her director with respect if the governor's going to sit here in the meeting you're not going to get the truth out of anybody nor is he going to speak up because he rules by fear everybody's frightened of her because she dismissed people at the drop of an eye being addictive if you crossed her if you crossed her then you'd be finished so what happened at the meeting so the meeting he said to me well she's the number one governor and anything that you're saying to me you should be able to say in front of her I said I'll say it I haven't got a problem with telling her I haven't got a problem with telling you I said well you've got 15 people around here I said I'm the only one I think correct me if I'm wrong if anybody else I said if anybody else preferred to speak out in front of the governor and everybody was quiet I said nobody's going to say anything they're frightened so he said well she's staying for the meeting I said okay so all the way through the meeting every time I tried to say anything he just shut me down I said about the riots clientele that we've got and I said well these six prisoners that were out three, four of them at the beginning of the years I've known them for years so it's not a change of clientele so these prisons have been in the system for years I said you've got high profile prisoners like Gary Nelson I don't know if you've heard of Gary Gary Nautory's prisoner I always go on well with Gary I like Gary up there again with one of the hardest prisoners probably ever in the system everybody would know of him talk to the army anybody would know him so anyway I gave him a scenario I said when Gary's wife came to visit I know for a fight she came with a short skirt on I said which okay fine if you wanted to have she can't wear that skirt that fine I said but the governor was called down there so we're in a short skirt the governor's got a skirt on the same length and Gary's wife rightly points out saying well what about you you've got a short skirt on and the governor's responses I'm the governor and I do what I want and I said that's exactly what she does so she turned kids away from visits kids on visits with with sandals on making them go to test scores to get proper shoes I said what's problem with sandal I said it's less place to hide a drug I said it's just all petty things just to to get at people I said but not just that I said that's what's caused this riot I said you've completely lost the prison and I said I'm telling you now it's because of the governor why you've lost it and he was adam that he wasn't I said I'm telling you now I said you've got a different governor in here tomorrow I've got a proactive governor like we've had in the past and I've named a few of them I said you've got a governor like that in tomorrow and this jail starts turning round immediately and he said no so anyway the the meeting finished I walked out went down the gym, got my bag got my stuff and sent him off and they went I said it didn't go well then I said nah I said he's just backing up so I walked out of the prison gate I saw a few of the staff I saw one of my colleagues I've known for a long time he said oh you're training I said nah I said that's me I'm done finished he went what do you mean I said I'm not coming back that's me and he went filled up the arch he said think about it I said only think about it I'm going I made the decision before I'm going so after I never went back I had a two week sick nore anyway I asked she was telling the my boss to come round to my house threatening me saying you better get yourself back to work she's going to dismiss you I said nah she's nah I said I'm going for medical retirement and they come back round the next day and said she told me you're not getting medical retirement fell I said it's not her decision I said I'm going for medical retirement I said she's supposed to support me in it I said I have no saliva I don't sleep I've been coming to work with no sleep for years because I love the job I said but she's taken all that away I'm not coming back so the pressure kept pressuring me and pressuring me and then she called me in for a sick monitor a meeting which is supposed to be informal and that was called too soon as well so I said well I've only been off for a week and I said this is supposed to happen after four weeks I said well she knows you're not coming back so she wants you in for this meeting so I've kept refusing to go in I said I'm not going in I was called to Birmingham for an independent check by a health authority just to look into if I met the criteria for sick people sick retirement and there's two levels of hill health retirement you can even get class one which is not allowed to work again but you get a real good pension pay out not many people get it and there's level two which is one below to work again but only up to how much you were now so anyway I told them everything that I've been through just honest with them told all the side effects they knew it all anyway they did all the paperwork and everything months down the line she kept putting pressure on saying should we go to SACNE I said no so I'm waiting for this I've got a letter back months down the line saying that I've been awarded level one sick retirement and I heard that she was smashing stuff around in the office when she got the letter and she had to invite me back in as well and the only one that regrets I have is when I was back in my wife was saying just be simple Phil you've got what you want and I said I haven't got what I wanted I'd still be in the job that's what I want that's what I wanted but I had to go so I said well just be alright just go so I went and she was trying to be nice as pie saying oh Phil I wish you all the best and the prisoners really respect you and I thought you too first bitch so I said to her I heard the grievance pointing against her I pulled that in right at the start and she said this grievance that you've got medical retirement you should just get on now and enjoy your retirement forget the grievance it's not gonna do do you any good to carry on with it and so I'm telling you now it's not part of this meeting but I'm carrying on with it I'm taking it as far as I can and I did that I took it all the way I took it to the MP in that meeting that first sick monitor meeting as well she went and she was trying to get me back to work she even turned around and looked me in the eye and she just said you've had cancer, get home with it and I just looked to her and said what have you and I said the meeting's finished and it's what have you and the POA bloke said to me he said well you're not going back are you I said are you kidding I said what for that and he went back in and said the meeting's finished he's not coming back and I walked out and said what for as well it has a big effect on you like you say football managers can take your bottom to the league of the top just 30 years of hard work it's just a shame that it ended like that just before we finished as well there's a big important thing there I was called back in as well after she left she went to Dovegate and got dismissed for bullying a couple of years later so she's gone but I got called back into the prison they did a big charity event for me third to Peter and Oliver Day and the classroom where I talk about where all the magic happened where we did the courses and reformed big characters like people who had a sixth man unlock a man called Chris Aigbola and he went out and worked never been back in prison so people that we really did turn around like that I got called back into the prison and they did a charity event they gave me a cheque and they walked me back through to the classroom and they got a plaque on the wall and it's now called the folk curry education suite the proudest moment in my career that's well overdue brother look where's this book from this books from a lad called Tom Held leaf in the max Tom Held he wrote it after retiring he was a prison officer there's also a chapter at the end and I wrote a chapter in myself and I'm now currently working on my own book everybody kept saying to me Phil you should write a book some of the funny stories I would not even mention the way the characters that we had down there were like they had one lad with ice cream wafers in between his toes with his feet up on the table saying I was doing reflexology with him and all the other prisoners in the way it's been laughing their heads up people used to say to me I've got my mate coming on induction today Phil I said again wind him up for us beefy wilson I'll just finish on this one this was a classic example beefy wilson was a big powerful black man he was coming and having his induction and I did his induction with him and I said right beefy I said we'll have to go in here now I said I'll do your dental check he said what? I said I have to do your dental check all the culp backs in the service I said we'll have to do a dental check on you know so I've got him in the chair put his head back got the fire hydrant in his mouth everybody's looking through the window at him and I've got him in there and I said Chris can you just take the notes he went yeah he's looking at me what the fuck's going on I said I'm just doing his dental check for him oh okay then so I'm going up a clue so needs attention at the end of it he said to me he said hey gof he said can you get me a gold cap so I said yeah I can sort that for you I said I can only get you one though he said yeah that's fine so anyway he went up back to the wing and he got talking to our gym old and he said hey that piece grew his fucking diamond he said he's got me a gold cap he went what? he said yeah he said who did your induction he said Phil Cullit he was pissing his side and he said you've been fucking at me but every time I saw him ever since then he always said I'm a dentist what about it would you like to finish up one if you'd fold no just thank me for your time I hope I've given a different side to the service really I know you had some on giving us a coin I can honestly say I was lucky I wore the blue tracks too because I made lots of friends on both sides of the fences and I always go through life I always did go through life thinking if you treat me people the way you wanted to be treated yourself that's why you get back and that's why I got back I have 30 years 29 years apart from the ending but just pure pleasure and loved every minute of it you seem like a good guy but for anybody it's maybe on a struggle right now maybe it's an award struggling fighting for their life what advice would you have for them keep fighting don't ever see don't ever give in I mean I've been told months to live and I would never have I didn't even want to be told when I went and he said about how long they've got I said don't tell me I said you can't have said that no matter what you tell me I'm not going to believe you anyway I said I've got all of those so I'll just carry on and I'm going to kick that can down the road as long as I can and people down there should do the same I did a bit of work for Hancock at the Neck Cancer UK where I went into the hospitals and spoke to patients it was going through the same as me talked to them and got them through treatment I had a problem word in the mask through treatment so I could help people with that and how I overcame that so I would always say don't ever, no matter where you are your tipping is a classic example days to live five years later still here living life I just shows you done it Phil, listen if I come on again telling your story I thoroughly enjoy that wish you all the best for your future mate unless it's the day with that pussy thank you