 This episode with Kota the friend was extremely important. If you don't know who he is, he's a completely independent artist with over 1.7 million monthly listeners has toured internationally and really running his own operation. And he touches on just that and monetizing, supporting himself, his career and his family all with his music. How he legitimately impacted all the content that we see today from artists and most artists don't even know it. But at the same time, he's not an artist who likes to drop content all the time because he cares about the art, which is another key part of this conversation. How do you keep the purity of the art and still monetize in a serious way? If you really care about your art, if you really care about your freedom as an artist, I implore you to listen to this full conversation that we had with Kota the friend. What's up, what's up, what's up? I'm Brandon Shawn. I'm Cory. And we are back with another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. You can catch us everywhere on DSPs, YouTube, et cetera, et cetera, here at the intersection of creativity and currency. And you know when we do this intro, we have a special guest. Today, we have Kota the friend and independent artists like a indie indie artist. 100%, like no fluff in the stuff. I'm really excited actually to have you on bro Kota because like I said, been watching you for a while from afar, having caught everything, but like I caught you way, way, way back seven years ago. I didn't realize the moment till your boy had sent something over. And Cory was like, man, he recorded his video seven years ago. And I was like, dang man, I've been watching him for that long. So without further ado, artists, I think y'all will get a lot of game from this. And fans, I think y'all will get a lot of value from it as well. Kota the friend man, appreciate you having you on man. And appreciate you putting me on the show. Yeah, of course, man. Of course, man. I think a great place to start as someone who's done something like independently for so long in this game where we know there's a lot of smoky mirrors, right? Where people feel like someone isn't necessarily the same type of independent as other artists might be or there might be more behind it. I wanna start with like the first side of it, which is just getting your own thing going, actually getting things popping. The first thing I got onto was the lyrics to Go series. Thought it was genius. Obviously what I do, I help an artist even back then, that was before like TikTok and IG was really like, content, content, content. Gary Vee hadn't even gotten into the game in people's heads yet. You know what I mean? And I was like, look, man, this is a very simple way that's repeatable. It's not too much stress, but it's also focused on the lyrics. So every artist is in lyrical, but I especially when I talk to lyrical artists, this is getting people to consume and understand what you're saying all at the same time. I thought so much of it was beautiful. So like for artists real quick, I just explained, we all see those yellow video, that yellow text of the video transcribing the song. Kota was the first person I've seen do that and own it. Maybe some other people might have did it randomly here and there for whatever reason, but that was like the thing that every single video. What gave you that idea, bro? Man, I just realized that that was my strength, and I didn't have much. I didn't have a lot of resources. I didn't have a lot of industry connections. So I really had to hone in on myself and how I can use my strengths to kind of like put my best foot forward. And I didn't have a bunch of money to pay for a bunch of music videos either. So I was like, I'm gonna make the video simple. And just what I didn't know, I knew how to edit videos and I knew how to color grade. And I just knew what I was doing in that realm. So I was like, I know how to make it interesting. So I did the slow zoom and I did a nice color grade to make it look cinematic. And I was like, if I put the lyrics on the screen, then people will screenshot it and maybe share it on Twitter or share it on their Instagram or in there or whatever. And that's exactly what happened. And I didn't realize that it was gonna blow like it did until I dropped the first one lyrics to go ever so one. And for some reason that was going crazy in any video I'd ever made ever. And it was the most simple video I've ever made. And after that I was just like, all right, let me try another one. And I did the same thing. And then I was like, let me try a third one. And then after a while, I just started really putting some money behind these videos and being like, I'm gonna shoot like five of them. And then I'm gonna promote each of them with like different Instagram pages and different Facebook pages or whatever. And it just started going crazy. And then it became a thing that just everybody did was like the lyrics on the screen. And then you started seeing apps just automatically have captions ready I was like that. So for me, I didn't see one rapper or one artist or anything put lyrics on the screen. And so for me to see like that become the norm upon all social media platforms was crazy. Yeah, man, I was wondering if you thought about it, man. Like you low key OG in terms of like where the current content landscape is. Like Sean said, this was before content was a buzzword, but you were on top of it. And now looking at where things are is really just an extension of the seeds. You were kind of, you know, you and other artists were kind of playing back then. I always wondered if you thought about it that way. Nah, I always think people, some people will hit me up in the middle of like middle and like nowhere. Like they'll be like, yo, bro, how do you feel about the fact that everybody uses captions now? Like that's like the norm. Like seriously, people ask me all the time. And my friends are like, bro, you really started that shit. That's crazy. And I just look at it like, man, it's like that's my like stamp in the game. Like that's something I contributed to music. So I'm happy about that. Bro, I can say that a lot of people have started things and then it somehow permeates throughout culture. And there's no direct tie back to you where you can just say what I did it earlier. They had to get it from you. But in your case, we can explicitly say it was you because I had my platform, I teach artists. Like, you know what I mean? And I was using you as an example and telling so many artists, no, this guy is doing it. This is exactly how you should do it. Like use casual. I was using you over and over and over again. People have been following for a long time. But with, especially around that time, no, like you were my primary example of exactly how you should do it. So at the very least, there was an amount that came directly because of you. I appreciate you, dawg. Like that is one of those things that you just got to like, you choke it up to the game. It is what it is. Yeah, yeah. Now, there was something interesting that you said, though, that I think every artist, person, whoever can benefit from. You said you just knew your strengths. Like when I talk to people about like just their brand, you know, like a lot of it is like, if you want to be authentic, what are your strengths? Or how you should, you should build your team. You got to know your strengths and compensate for the weaknesses. So how did you, what were your strengths at that time and maybe even the weaknesses? And then how did that somehow lead to the, to that series and then how you moved after that? Yeah, my strengths were the lyrics. Like people, whenever people talk about my songs, they talk about how meaningful the lyrics are. So I thought about that. And then my other strength was that I knew how to shoot videos, which a lot of my peers, they didn't know how to do because I had spent years kind of like, not necessarily perfecting the craft, but I knew, I knew a lot about it. I knew enough to make somebody's music video and make it like hot. So I knew something about how things looked and how things were edited and how to make things look interesting. You know, which is a big part of my come up because people would see the video and be like, damn, this video just, it's something about it. They didn't know how to explain it, but they were like, there's something about this video that I really like, you know? And it's just because it was professional, it was clean. It looked like a real videographer had shot it because I am a real videographer, you know? So, yeah. Yes, I was gonna ask about that. So at that time, were you a videographer that was looking to transition into becoming a music artist or were you already a music artist and you were using videography to kind of get you in? Like which of the routes was it? Yeah, I was a music artist. For a minute, I was already recording, but I actually took a full step back so I could like make money, you know? I was like, yo, because at the time, if you weren't signed to a label, there was no way you was getting paid off for music. Like, there was no possible way. Like Spotify numbers weren't, they weren't hitting like they're hitting out for independent artists. So it was hard to get a fan base. Like you could get a fan base, you could do some shows, but you're still a starving artist. You're not getting real tour money back then. So for me, I was just like, man, I'm just gonna learn something else. I'm just gonna learn a new craft, you know? So I make music, but I ended up selling all of my music equipment and I bought a Canon T3i and then after that, I upgraded to the Canon 5D Mark II and then I got like, I had a whole bunch of cameras after that. So I was a real full-fledged videographer and that was my main thing. I remember telling my friends, my friends wanted to fight me, they were like, bro, you can't stop making music, you can't stop doing this. I'm like, bro, this is what I have to do for now because I have to eat and I got to make sure that I got a roof over my head. And so I did that for a while. And once I realized I had like savings and everything and I was just like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna buy my recording equipment back. So I bought a whole bunch of recording equipment and I got back on it. And then when my son was about to be born, I think that's when I really had to make a decision. Say, am I gonna do this? Like, cause I can't have my hands in every single part. I have to actually hone in and focus on one thing. And that's when I really decided to go full steam with the music. So like you took that step back after you had started to develop a fan base? I had a little bit of a fan base nowhere near what I had after the fact, you know? But it just wasn't materializing to anything crazy. I wasn't getting any crazy looks. I wasn't getting label offers. I didn't have any connections, like I said. So it just didn't seem like something that was gonna lead somewhere at the time, you know? It seemed like I needed an extra something. I needed an extra something to make me more of an asset. Now I wanna get to the music as well, but like this part of the conversation is actually so important, man, because I feel like that's just part of what's gonna inspire people, not only artists, but people in general. You took a step back for your dream. You refocused. Now you got 1.9 million monthly listeners. Last I checked, you got Income Producing Real Estate. Flight Boys is a brand that's established, right? That people actually know about from a clothing brand standpoint. You have multiple things as a legitimate business person, all right, and you're still 100% indie and have a legitimate fan base, but that it didn't start there. Like you just talked about having to take stuff back and figure out how to get bread. So I, one, what inspired you to stay independent? Because you've had to have some offers at this point. I got offers, but they just weren't good, you know? It just didn't make sense in a business sense. It just, I don't think good deals don't really exist. You know what I mean? Like a lot of the times, like, I think it's rare that somebody gets a really good deal and the only time they get a good deal is when they've already built up a crazy follow and then they're a short thing, you know? So I was always just, I mean, like I'm a simple dude, like if I have a crib and I have food and everybody that I love is taken care of and nobody's struggling, then I'm gonna stay independent. You know what I mean? There's no rush for me to do anything crazy. I look at this like a job, whereas I realize a lot of rappers in particular, they, it's a lot of competition. It's like, oh, I want to be at the top. I want to be making this many aims and this, but I've always been like, bro, if I can make a 100K off of music, then I'm winning. I'm up, you know, like, and if I can make 200K even better, if I can make 500, if I can make a meal, that's the dream. Like, so I kind of still look at it that way, where it's like, man, everything in my life is taken care of and it's all because of music, which is something I love. And on top of that, I could, I got side of the blues. So we having fun with it. Are you at a point where everything you're making off of music is just straight going into music or like, are you like, or do you have enough leftover where you can think about I'm planning a year or two in advance in music or maybe like ducking off a little bit to the side? Everything I make goes into a lot of family stuff. You know what I mean? Making sure the family is good and for their longevity. Other than that, I do have my hands in like real estate and so I'm always figuring out ways to invest in that. So I'm putting money aside for, you know, future real estate investments and I put money back into the music. But, you know, there's some stuff that I actually take loans from the bank. So the bank will give me loans and I'll put that into the music, you know? I wanna interrupt this episode to say if you are still using Linktree as an artist, I'm not saying you're playing yourself, but you're playing. Let me tell you why. The link in bio is extremely valuable real estate. I can't tell you how much we've paid influencers just to be able to put a little link in the bio. Yet for some reason, people only seem to value it with somebody else's paying them for it versus taking full advantage of that real estate for themselves. For an artist, forever fam is the best way to do that because it's not just some random link in bio. It's specifically for artists connected to the full music funnel and software to make sure every single interaction helps you understand your fan base, engage with that fan base so they support you, continue to fund your career, and most importantly, help you find more folks like them. Check it out at foreverfammusic.com slash no labels. That's no labels with the S. And then when you get there, you can get access today for only $1 using the code no labels as well. So get rid of your Linktree or whatever link in bio you're using and replace that condo with a full blown compound. It'll make your life easier, especially if you're an indie already making stuff happen. It's like having a whole employee without having to hire an employee, if you know what I'm saying. So go to www.foreverfammusic.com slash no labels and use the code no labels, get access for just a dollar, see how it works for yourself and you won't want to use anything else. I know because it happened to us. Like you got a good, like an interesting like background because the Flight Boys brand, you started that in the 11th grade, saw that you went to school with phony people, which is dope cause I rock with them like pretty heavy. I remember when they first hit, like were you in a super creative environment in high school coming up like beyond, like was it just you and a couple of people or your area? Was it like, I don't know, the Pharrell's and Timberland and Missy and like you just got all these people everywhere. Nah, it was definitely like you just had those people everywhere. Everywhere you turn, you've seen somebody that is somebody now, you know? So that, I think that was one of the beautiful things about how we came up and we went to a arts high school and we were always going from one high school to the other high school and then we were doing shows on a weekend where everybody was coming together and it was like talent shows outside of school, which is nothing better. There's nothing better than a whole bunch of kids coming together, no fights, no negativity, just really showing off what they can do as an artist. And that's how, that was our environment, man. It's like, we'll go to Edward R. Murrow and we will see Capitol Stee's freestyling and that was regular. And even one of the stories that somebody told me and I think Joey, like Joey Badass, he told me that they was freestyling outside of this spot called the Five Spot and this is where I used to throw all my showcases when we were in high school and he was like, that night they were freestyling outside the spot. It was one of my shows and that's the night that they created Pro-Ever. So it was like, that's how connected everybody was. It's like, even if we didn't know each other personally, we were in the same spaces at the same time. And so I think that's because everybody wanted to be something and that's, it just goes to show because people really became something. Man, that sounds like y'all got a movie that should be made. It's really Brooklyn. I think it's really a movie and if people had kind of like stuck together then it would be going crazy right now. The stories being told would be crazy. It's just, I think it was just, it never stayed cohesive. Not like Atlanta or LA, you know what I mean? So. You were part of a group, right? Yeah, which one? Which one? I don't even, I only knew what, I can't remember the name. The first one. Napierre? Napierre, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was in Napierre. What was, what's the experience like being in a group and versus being a solo rapper? Man, you gotta be mature to be in a group, I think. You know, it's like, when you're solo, it's all on you. So you're not thinking about somebody else working as hard as you. So, but when you're in a group, you have expectations of each other. Yeah, and that becomes a difficulty. Because if somebody, like I was always the person, I'm always the type of person, I think you can tell it's just, if I want it to happen, man, I'm gonna go hard. I'm gonna make sure it happens. I'm gonna put everything I got into it. Whereas everybody else is a lot more relaxed about pretty much everything. Yeah, it is for some reason, I always just noticed that. So for me, being a solo artist made so much more sense, because the work ethic. You like sports? Yeah, I like sports. What's your favorite sport? Man, whatever's playing, bro. I'm the kind of person, I can get into it as long as I know what's going on. And once I'm into it, I'm into it. I can't stop. Like my wife, she's from the UAE. So I was never into soccer, football, whatever, whoever you want to call it. But I wasn't into it. Then we were watching the World Cup. And I'm sitting there, I watched probably like one and a half games. And by that, by then I knew everything that was going on. Like I knew what team I wanted to win. I had my favorite player. So it's like, it don't matter, bro. Yeah, I can sense the vibes from some of the stuff you said. That's all I was immediately thinking. Like, who was your favorite basketball player? I could tell a lot about somebody based on that type of stuff. All right, Iverson. Easy, hands down. I got you. I know what type of guy that is. Good disrupter. I love the underdog, bro. I love it. I love seeing the little guy win. It makes my heart happy. It's like, Iverson is my favorite for so many reasons. Like, first of all, everybody gonna say he changed the game. He was so tough, man. To be six feet or maybe not even six feet and be doing the things he was doing and leading teams and dropping 53 points, neck and neck with Kobe. He was doing crazy stuff. So, and all the stuff that people try to throw at him too. So, and all the stuff he had to battle through even after the NBA. And it's just, so I always root for him. And I always root for people like that in life. When I see him, whether it's on social media or whatever. And people going through hardships while everybody else is being him down. I'm rooting for him. Like, that's who I am. Yeah, that's all I was gonna ask you. Do you see yourself in that same vein? Like, as an indie and just maybe your own personal life, do you find yourself to be more resonating as an underdog yourself? All the time. I've always been an underdog. But, and what's funny about it is like, you always feel like underestimated and that's the beauty of it. That's what keeps you going. Yeah, man. I got a question, man. We talked a lot about early come up and obviously you are a much more established artist. And what I think is really important for us to show, our viewers sometimes are that the answers aren't, the problems aren't solved just because you got shows happening or you got million plus monthly listeners. So like, you know, hearing you talk, it sounds like you figured out a couple of different things. You went the media route first to make some money. I heard you mentioned doing some of your own early marketing stuff like sending out some of the pages for you, for yourself. You mentioned like doing showcases. So you've had, you've dabbled in a lot of these different areas and it sounds like figuring some stuff out. What are the problems that color the friend today is working on? You know what I'm saying? Like what are the things that you're actively working on now to try to, you know, keep progressing yourself? You know, like what is your ground look like now? Man, it's so crazy. Because I think about this all the time. There's things I think about all the time with the music industry as it is now, man. Just to kind of, it all comes full circle because when I started that content situation, I was dropping so much content so often with the yellow subtitles and bro, that's all of social media now. So that's all of Instagram rails. That's all of TikTok and it's flooded at that time. Like when I started doing content and weekly content, sometimes bi-weekly, sometimes like, I would drop like three videos in a week maybe. You didn't really know that that was so rare. That was like unheard of. What do you mean you dropping two videos in a week? Three, what do you mean you dropped, you shooting five videos at one time and dropping them throughout the month? Like that wasn't heard of, but now that's nothing compared to what these people are doing. These people are shooting five videos a day. These people are shooting 10 pieces of content a day. So I got two kids bro, I don't know about shoot, but I don't got time to shoot 10 pieces of content a day. Like that's, I just don't have time to just and make good music on top of that. So I think with my situation, I'm really, I'm taking another step back. It's almost like I'm going back to where I was when I was trying to, I was trying to stack up some bread. Like I feel like I'm in a moment where I'm taking those steps back to really look at the landscape and see where I fit in in this landscape because I'm not a TikToker. I'm not a Instagram real maker. I love making content, don't get me wrong. I love making videos, but I'm a musician. I'm a writer. That's what I do, it's about the art first. And so what I'm trying to do now and my issue is my problem is really trying to figure out how do I make this art, you know, get it to the people that want to hear it or how do you find people that just want to hear good music and people that are not like caught up in the drama and the facades that we see on social media and just caught up in other people's lifestyles. I don't care about, I'm not trying to give you my lifestyle. I'm not trying to give you my rundown of what I'm doing every day. I'm not showing you where I'm at. You know, I got things to lose. So for me, I wanna figure out how do I bring it back to the days where people just listen to music and was like, yo, this shit fire. You know, like I don't feel like that really exists anymore because this once you see something, the next thing is popping up. And then the next thing popped up, people's attention spans, it seems like like 15, 20 seconds. So really trying to figure out where I fit in so I could continue just making music and doing what I do. Yeah, I feel like you'd be a good streamer. I don't know what I can see. I can see you having a... Yeah, I'll tell you why. Like you mentioned consumer behavior change and why like attention spans are shorter. I think now fans expect a lot more access to their artists. And what's really interesting and why I say I would throw you in that bucket is I remember early Instagram live days, you have this series where you would just like talk to the camera while you were taking your son to school or picking them up from daycare or something like that. It was something like that. Like you would just sometimes like pop on camera and be like, oh, like I gotta pick them up in like 20 minutes. So I'm about just like chop it up. And it's like, I look at it like, like I said, but like a lot of that stuff that you and other artists may have been doing on accident back then or just the past of time is kind of like the norm now. You know what I'm saying? It's like now I expect, if my favorite artist got kids, I want to know, you know what I'm saying? Did the kid make it home safe? You know what I'm saying? Like what y'all eat for dinner? You know, like I want to know that type of stuff. And so that's what makes me say, I think like, no, of course you're in a different space. You're a much different caliber of arts than, but just talking to you now and then thinking about you doing that, I think you'd be a good streamer, bro. I think you should. I could try, but I'm telling you, maybe at some point in my life, bro, but I just feel like what streamers do is so much energy, you know? And I don't knock it, but I kind of envy it. You know, I kind of envy it because it's just like, man, that opens you up to a whole new fan base because that's what is popping out and streaming. But man, I really, I got to find the energy, you know? I think that's one of my problems too is like finding the energy to do everything, bro. You're really like just thoughtful overall, man. And you know, the decisions, the music, you can hear it in the music. What, from the music, because that's the core of all of it. Do you feel like you have something to say? All the time. I feel like I always have something to say just because the world is always gonna be the way to the world. And I'm always on a journey. I'm always learning something. I always see things in my own, in a different perspective, in new perspectives because I may be reading a book, or yeah, I'm reading something new, or I watched a video, or I heard a speech, or I just had a conversation with somebody that kind of just like sparked something in me. So I try to stay inspired by always learning. I'm never content with the knowledge that I have. I always know that there's more. And so I feel like I always got something to say. And I think a few months ago, I was like, man, do I even have anything new to say because I was having writer's block like crazy. But then I read a book, and then I had something to say. Yeah. So do you feel like you're on a mission to make a certain point or get a certain message out there? Or is it more just like whatever I have to say and whatever I need to express, I use the music to get out there? Yeah, definitely. I feel like I've just had things to express and things to get off my chest. I've used music as an outlet. I've used it as an outlet to tell stories and say things that people wouldn't really allow you to say face-to-face. You know, like for some reason when you add a beat and then you speak your truth, people accept it a lot better than when you say it straight out. And that's just the way it is. So music has always been my way to kind of say those things that were hard. Like in my real life, man, communication is an issue. We're working on it. But through the music, it's like, damn, that's the communication. The communication is all there. That's an artist, man. Man, go listen to this song, man. Get back to me in 10 minutes. You'll see when I come home. I kind of really stopped saying stuff on social media, like all together. It's like, I used to be like other people where they talk about how they're feeling on social media. But then after a while, I just really drew all of that back. And I was like, I'm gonna put it in the music because y'all don't give a fuck. You know what I mean? Y'all don't give a... Like people really don't care about people. And I see it. I'm not arguing nobody or nobody's Instagram comments, I'm not... You could say the worst shit about me and I'm gonna just be like, okay, listen to this song. New song dropping next week is what it is. Because it's like, that's the only thing that matters is what you create. Everything else is like nothing, you know? Speaking of create, man, you got a book. Oh, you got a tune, you know? Koda and Sedona, which... You know, I saw how in the book you alluded back to hidden moments that alluded to the photo album. And one, did you create the project first and then the book was just like later or was the book always in mind? This is a children's book, by the way, for those who are following, which makes it even more interesting. But which one became first? The project. Project. The photo album came first. The book actually came about because I was on the TSA line in Colorado. And the girl next to me, she was like, oh my God, you're Koda the friend. You know, I was like, yeah, I'm Koda the friend, that's me. And we started talking, turns out she's a publisher. And she was like, oh, no, she's an illustrator and she works with a publisher. She was like, oh my God, like I make children's books and so if you ever wanted to make a children's book, I was like, yo, it's crazy because I've been wanting to make a children's book. I got kids and I love reading them books. So something I've always been interested in. And a few months later, we was drafting a book and she was sending me illustrations and we was writing it up. And it turned into, we want to make a series of books. So this is the first one of the whole series and this is Koda and Sedona. And each book is gonna be based on a different place that I've been to. And they're all just dedicated to kids in the inner city that don't get to experience places like Sedona, Arizona or Denver and Colorado up in the mountains. Or it's like, we're wherever I've been. I've been all over the world as a kid from Brooklyn, New York. A lot of my friends have never left New York, you know? So it's really just about me and my son. It's like a black father and a black son and we're traveling the world and we're seeing things that, we're seeing the beautiful parts of the world. So, yeah. That's a beautiful concept because it was funny, like reading that that's kind of what the book is about, right? Showing people different parts of the world, specifically, you know, kids, it's a kids book. But, you know, I read it and I'd never been to Sedona, you know? And I felt like now I know some stuff. Like I saw a little, you know, I had the pictures. Now I know about the vortex and a place to meditate. Like I really kind of got that experience and I haven't read like nonfiction in a long time either. So, or is it fiction? I always mess it up. Fiction, I haven't read fiction on, sure, I really, that's a whole other story. Not to the track, but I haven't really read fiction in a long time. And it took me on that, just that little bit of journey, so the impact of it, like I can imagine I already know that, like the kids will feel it, even me as an adult, you know, went through that short experience and just was like, oh man, that's dope. Now I know a little bit of something, you know? Now that's what kind of why I'm excited because we really get to teach kids about places that they would otherwise not really know about. I didn't know about Sedona until I was a grown man as well. Like, you know, I was like, okay, that's a place. Somebody, some white dude told me, you know, my old manager, my old manager, he was like, yo, this place called Sedona, I go there every year, that's how I learned about Sedona. And that's how I learned about a lot of, you know, places that I now and either have been or I'm interested in going to just, I'm a grown man, bro. First time I really got on a plane, I was a grown man, dog. So like, I look at that, like that's so important to have this information as a kid and to be like, oh man, these are places that I wanna go in my life. And to see in the book that it's two black boys, a black boy and a black man and they're going to all of these beautiful places and they're not afraid to do, you know, these crazy things. Like, man, I've been kayaking, I've been mountain climbing, like I've been out here. And it's like stuff that we're afraid of a lot of times when you come from the city, it's like, I ain't never doing that. Like even you asked me, if you asked me 15 years ago, I'll be like, I'm not going camping, what I look like? Going camping, I'm not doing that. I'm still not there yet. I feel you. And it's just, it's like, but I think the whole point is like, there's nothing to be afraid of though. You know, it's like, I feel like I really want people in our communities to feel like they can have those experiences too. You know, if you know what it is, I don't want us to close ourselves off. That's it. I feel like sometimes because of where we come from in our past and society, sometimes we close ourselves off from cool experiences. And so these books are kind of like that. It's like, look, this is what Sedona looks like. Man, this is what it looks like to be in China. This is what it looks like to be walking around in Barcelona or in London. And it's just like, man, now you grow up and you're in the second, third grade. And you're like, yo, mom, one day I want to go here. One day I want to go there. And now you have these dreams, yet you're like the world becomes, the world is huge, but it becomes smaller. When you start, the more you know, you know, the more you really get the education of what's going on around you, like the world becomes smaller and things become more attainable. And I think that's when life gets interesting. Yeah, I'm talking. I'm talking. I'm chatting. Yeah, no, that's dope. Cause you're truly planting seeds. And, you know, I see the impact. I have children as well. So like, I just, I know how those small things, you know, they can take over their entire mind. You know what I mean? For real estate, they can obsess over it over a while and you know what's going to happen some way one day just because it's now a thing to them. You know? Yeah. I think it's dope that, you know, books are obviously, it's writing. You called yourself a writer earlier in addition to just be, I'm an artist, I'm a rapper or something like that. Books are a great extension, right? To what you're doing. Do you feel like there's any other ways that you want to like do a brand extension of the talent that is Kota, like the writing, the music creation or the brand that is Kota, you know, your look or whatever you want to build on that side. Cause you also have the clothing brand and stuff like that as well. Man, I just think that I just want to create things. I want to make, I want to get into film. I want to really get into fashion the way I want to. I want to get into art. Whatever is art, I want to support other people in their dreams. If I see something that's going to be beautiful. I was just talking to somebody the other day. I was like, I just want to, I want to create, I look at it like real estate. I look at these creative ideas like real real estate. And I want, I want to build downtown Manhattan. You know what I want? I want every, I want to build the Empire State. I want to build the Chrysler building. And I want to do it. Obviously I can't do it alone. So it's just right now I'm in a space where I'm finding a whole bunch of people to work with and create different projects with. And together we can make something so much bigger than ourselves and something that lasts so long. You know, something that can't be knocked down. And that's, that's what I'm interested in. So it's not really about Koda the brand. I don't think Koda, I think Koda is really just a part of this bigger situation that's, that's like happening on a low. And right now I'm just really connecting the dots. The universe will do everything for you. If you, if you, if you put it in the world that this is what you want to do. And it's like, comes from pure intentions. The universe has been putting every single person in my path has been. It's like, I didn't even have to do nothing. It's just that person is just there. Meet them. Oh, they already know about you. They want to work with you already. Boom, y'all created that connection. Then y'all started doing it. So I'm more interested, I'm so much more interested in meeting people and connecting and building something together that stands the test of time. Man, when I hear you speak, I do, I think of you as a legitimate artist, man. Beyond just the music now, and it makes sense, you went to art school as well. Like that's kind of like a lot of my upbringing and as well as my dad went to art school. Like there's so much of it that it's nothing that's really out of reach in terms of different forms of arts. It's not that big of a deal where I feel like a lot of people are bound more to music and they kind of like this other stuff that's cool that other people are doing. But it seems like for you it's just, it's all gonna come out one way or another eventually because it's in you, you've just been around it for a long time. Have you found it like to be like kind of effortless? And you just, because that's how you talk about it. It's like, well, yeah, I just did this and now this is the other thing I wanna do it. And I just did that. It does not, there's not as much of a challenge. It seems like for you to get into things as some people who haven't been into things or got to taste as much as you might have, you know what I mean? I think that I think I owe that to my dad. He's always been an entrepreneur. So I never watched him really work a regular job. He'd be in the crib at 1 p.m. Like that was so, I didn't know that you had to do that. I didn't know that you had to get a job. I never looked at it. I was like, if I get a job, I must be doing something wrong. That's the way I saw it. If that's my end goal, so freedom has always been a big deal for me to be able to just get up and do the things that I wanna do. And if I have an idea, try to make it happen. And if it fails, then okay, you just do something else or whatever. I've never been afraid of failure, never, never. I've never been afraid. Even to this day, I'm constantly trying. I try something, if it don't work, then I may spend 30 minutes being down on myself about it. And then on the 31st minute, I get back up and I'm like, I tried something different, new plan. And so that's just how it's always been. Important for someone like you to say and then speak about entrepreneurship because so many people look at it as like a divide. You can't be business focused or talented at business and then also talented at the arts. Have you found that to be a struggle personally? Yeah, because I'm an artist. I'm an artist first. I think the business, it's tough. And sometimes I wanna strip down the business to nothing just so I could focus on being an artist. And so it gets tough. You really gotta have like a business manager. Somebody to really manage your business. While I think I'm good with certain marketing techniques and creative ideas, I think I'm, I keep my lane as the creative at all times. And a lot of times I hate when people on my team try to get into the creative. Cause I'm like, look, I don't fuck with you over there in the business situation. So you need to just, it kills me. It's like, but I'm definitely a stay in my lane kind of person. Where I had, sometimes I'll have a good business idea, but I don't think I'm fully business savvy, man. I'm not, I'm a creative. I would say I'm 90, 10, 90% creative, 10% business. Or maybe 80, 20, you know? Cause I don't, there's a lot of things that I don't let just like get by me. I see things that don't make sense business wise. I see things and I bring it up. I'm like, this doesn't, but for the most part I'm a creative, you know? What part about it, about the business side stresses you out in terms of the creative that you want to get done? It's just that business is kind of linked to capitalism, you know? And I feel like business and capitalism are anti-art, anti-artistry, which is why the music business has been so trashed for so many years. Because, and artists have kind of taken the shitty end of every deal. It hasn't been kind to artists because it's not, it's not about the spirit. Business is not about the spirit. It's not about, it's not about feelings and morality. It's about how much, making sure I make more money and making sure that this deal is better for me than it is for you. So it's hard, it's hard to really balance both because they kind of negate each other. Sometimes I wonder if music was ever meant to really be a business. I look at music like another art form, like painting or dancing or whatever. It's not so easy to monetize. And I feel like so much money has been made from music that people stop looking at it, like an art form. This is something that people are getting millions and millions and millions and billions of dollars for. So it's turning to something different. But at the end of the day, music is about doing, writing a song, writing a beautiful song, performing it for however many people are gonna come listen and they're gonna pay to have a much money to come see you. And so it's simple to me, it's simple to me. And so it's difficult when I look at the way the music industry is now, it's super commercialized. And I'm not trying to sound like one of them people that's just anti-business and pro-art all the time, but it is a struggle, bro, yeah. I mean, bringing in money, scaling something commercially does naturally take the purity out of anything. We talk about it with art, cause it's kind of obvious. But even if you look at the NBA professional sports, I knew people, some of my, like one of my godfathers, he would, he did not go to the pros cause he had to take care of his mom and get a job cause it wasn't money in basketball like that now. I mean, back then, but basketball now has so much money. People are pursuing it to put their family on. You go, you know what I mean? And it's less about the love of the game. And I think the same thing even happens in music. So it's one thing where the artists are talking about all the business, the labels, the professionals, the industry, but now there are many artists that get into it, right? Because of the lifestyle that they see, let alone the money specifically, the lifestyle is a whole another thing that's not art itself, but that's the motivation behind it. And even you, you're living off of your music, which is a great accomplishment, right? Where do you find the line to be as someone who is successfully having some level of, you know, capital gain from your music, but you also have your freedom? Like how do you keep that balance and still feel comfortable as an artist? I think this is the best place you could, I think it's the best place you could be as an artist, to have your freedom and to be making a living off of music. I don't know about the longevity of it though. I don't know how long that lasts, like the way things are, it's like the way things change all the time. And so for me, it's like, I look at it, I look at it like all little old school gangsta and drug movies when you're like, bro, you got to get out the game now. You got to get out the game now. If you don't get out the game now, then I don't know what's going to happen with the rest of the movie. You just hoping he gets what he gets and he gets out and he just drives off into the sunset. The movie ends, road credits. Like for me, it's like trying to figure out the perfect time to get out, you know? Like because I appreciate the art so much. I don't think I'll ever stop making music, but I just want to, I really want to get to the point where I build something so much bigger than what the music is so that I can really just fully enjoy and have fun just making music. And I'm getting it. You know, I'm on my way to, but it's tough, you got to, I'm trying to figure it out. That's the perfect person to hear that from because there's going to be artists who are at this point, all right? And are going to get to that point and they're going to wonder like, yeah, what do I do if I want to maintain integrity? Is that an option? And you just reminded me that I got a homegirl who she expressed something very similar. She's done very well in like merch and made money and other ways from the music. And now that she found this spot, because she didn't think and strategize this way, but once she got to that place, she started to appreciate the freedom in which she could create her music, right? Cause she wasn't relying on it to make the check. And I'm starting to think personally for a lot of artists who are like, all right, I truly, truly care about the art itself. Like maybe that's the way, right? You monetize and maybe it might be brand related so you can stay a creative bag, but so you don't have to put pressure on putting out another track just for quantity sake, you know what I mean? Or fulfilling some type of deadline and you can lead the art to art. You build around a brand or whatever your other creative qualities are. That sounds like to me that might be the dream for real. Yeah, I think it is, man. It's like, people think, like I think I put on Twitter a while ago. I was like, and I got some backlash from this comment, from this statement, but I was like, bro, if you really love the music and if you really love the art, then don't quit your day job. You know, like that was the tweet. And a lot of people came back at me like, oh, says the person that's making money off of their art already. And it's like, I get that, but trust me, I'm talking to people who really love what they're doing. I'm not talking to the people that's just trying to get the bag. Cause right now I think we're in a space where people care a lot about the bag. Like artists and now it's just like, I not get that people, we need money. We need money to eat. People's trying to live good lifestyles. They're trying to live crazy lifestyles and trying to, some people is just trying to take care of everybody around them. And I understand that. And that all comes from good spaces. But which is why I specified, if you love this art, because if you just try to focus on getting a bag and at the same time you really enjoy making this art, you're gonna, it's like you're having an internal war with yourself. And people wonder why they're so depressed. It's like, now I made it here, but I'm so depressed. It's like, because you've had to give up and sacrifice 50% of who you really are to get this bag. And you love the art, but you hate yourself for getting to where you got. So it's just like, is it worth it? It's like that, it's like the biblical phrase. Like what is good, what good is it's a man who gains the world when he loses his soul? Yeah, I think that's pretty heavy. That's something that I'm gonna leave the artists to think on that for themselves. But before we get out of here, I do wanna touch on a couple more things, man. One, like doing shows, I remember a minute ago when you got your first show to go to South Africa. You know what I mean? And I think I didn't forget it because it's kinda like that thing you said, like being where we're from and then going to a Sedona. Like it really clicked like Brug going to South Africa. It was a big deal to me. You know what I'm saying? And I wanna know just what was that like and how does something like that come about for an artist who's in Brooklyn? You know what I mean? And shout out to Twitter. And you'll never hear me say that again. Shout out to Twitter. That's the only time you ever get that quote out of me, man, because that's really where a lot of my South African fan base came from. And I ain't know where it was coming from. I was like, yo, why is so many people in South Africa showing me love on social media? Turns out that Coda is a South African street food. Like it's spelled the same way too, K-O-T-A. It's a South African street food. And I started, somebody actually DM me, I think, and they sent me a picture of what a Coda looked like. So he was like, yo, see, this is what a Coda is in our hometown. And I was like, that's crazy out there, I'm a food. So they thought I was South African. That was where the connection came from. They actually, and I'm sure they probably saw my face. And then once I saw what South Africans looked like, I'm like, I could definitely be South African easily. And so they thought I was from, they thought I was from South Africa. They was trying to figure out, yo, you from here, you from Cape Town, where you from? Like they didn't know I was from New York. And so they was telling me to come out, thinking that I, they was telling me to do a show, thinking that I was from there. And I saw that rock in the daisies, somebody was like, yo, you need to get on rock in the daisies. That was the festival that they throw in Cape Town or near Cape Town. So after that, I just started telling everybody, yo, spam rocking the daisies, telling them to put me on the ledge, telling them, and I started going crazy on Twitter. South African Twitter came together. And before you know it, we had an offer and it wasn't crazy. It's like, I think all the money that they gave me, I spent to fly me and my friends out and put us up in a hotel. Like, so it was probably a few thousand dollars just so we could make it work. And I think my homegirl was my DJ at the show. Like, it was the most last minute, just not normal thing to happen, but I was able to go to South Africa and they showed me mad love. Like, to this day, that's the baby crying. To this day, I always say that was the one place that showed me so much love that I felt like I really wanted to cry. Like, they were crying. They were like, oh my God, I never got that much love. So I always got mad love in South Africa. I can't wait to go back. Man, that's a new marketing strategy. You can catfish your way into a family. But he thinks, I didn't even know, bro. I didn't even know. That's crazy. It was a complete accident. I want to leave it with this, man. You kind of touched on some of the stuff, but maybe we can go deeper. For an artist who cares about the art, all right? You said a few things throughout this talk, but what would you leave them with? For artists that cares about the art. Well, like I would say, keep the art pure. Don't, because that'll cause a whole bunch of other frustration and it comes with a whole bunch of other problems is when you dilute the art. Like we've been talking about, it's tough. It's like, what do you tell artists in the capitalist society, man? What do you tell them? I could try to give you all this advice, but am I gonna give you advice so you could be more at peace? Or am I gonna give you advice so you can make the bag? It's like, because it's hard to do both at the same time. And it takes, I think it takes a lot of, it takes a lot of knowledge and not only knowledge, but knowledge of self and you really, if you wanna make the bag and keep your heart at the same time, yo, it's levels to that. Yo, it's like, it's not normal. Like you even look at Jay-Z. He's become one of the most successful people in hip hop ever. If not the most successful person in hip hop. And when you listen to 444, I'm like, this man is 50 something years old. It's like, he's still going through it. He's still going, and that's not a knock on him, just to say that's the reality. It's like, it's hard to have everything. And I think that's, it's hard to give him advice, bro. It's hard to give him advice because I feel like I'm still trying to figure out, I'm still trying to figure that out, that balance and I'm learning more about myself every day. I guess I wanna ask you a question. What do I want for them? What is the thing that I want them to do? Do I want them to be happy or do, I want them to be as successful as possible? I mean, I feel like there's a way to get to both, but you have to make sure you define the success for yourself and not others. You know what I mean? And what I heard you say is just understanding that life is something that doesn't get figured out 100%, it's always evolving. And maybe such as my grandmother might give me that same advice just as a human experience. So much of art is really just reflecting the human experience, even if it's your own and just your own. So maybe that's, that is the thing, right? Be okay with the fact that there's phases and they'll be struggled with your art, but maybe that's what makes the art, you know? I got it. I got the advice. I got the advice, bro. I got it. Shout out to what you say, because you kind of what you said made me think and I was like, okay, if, so I would say just focus on what you have to offer. Stop thinking about yourself almost entirely. Obviously you feed yourself, you take care of yourself, you make sure you're good, but whenever you put the pen to the page or whenever you release a song, think about how you're affecting somebody else's life and thinking about how, what you're contributing to society. And even when you're not making music, I would say focus on, focus on what you are giving to the world rather than what you're receiving from it. I feel, and I feel like if you have that mentality, with just everybody you meet and everybody you ran into, it's like, man, what am I doing to make this person's life better? I feel like good things are gonna come to you. You can get the success and at the same time, you will get that peace. You will get that inner peace and good things are always gonna come your way. I love it. I love it. Yeah, that's fine. Everybody, this is Kota the Fran. I'm Brandon Shawn. And I'm Corey. And this is yet another episode of No Labels Necessary. Peace. Peace.