 Welcome back to the breakfast and plus TV Africa. We had straight to our first major conversation where we look at an open letter by former president to Lucia Gunobasan draw and in the content of that letter He talked about the fact that he has no hatred for the Niger Delta people has been claimed by stick holder Other statesman Edwin Clack. Right and to make sense of all of this We have to find gentlemen who will be joining the conversation Victor Kai. He's a public affairs analyst and Nika Ghoule Good morning gentlemen, and thank you for joining us this morning Victor Kai. Good morning. Can you hear us? Good morning. Very good. What's up outside? Alright, thank you for joining us. So let's let's set off with the I'm sure you have actually seen or read the letter open letter of former president Lucia Gunobasan draw to the elder states person talking about Edwin Clack saying he has no hatred for the region and This is as a result of the fact that he said that all of the Niger Delta does not just belong only to the Niger Delta region What belongs to Nigerians? But let's show your thoughts on that letter. What are your thoughts? Fine, I've listened to the argument of both parties and To a very large extent it's worth to take away sentiment One would have to agree that Abat and Johan have a superior argument And the reason is simply that Yes, they were talking about one part of the country But everything that is within the federation belongs to the country, but the country for instance whatever happens in one division No matter the revenue that comes from one division It's revenue for the entire group So to that extent I would say And again, in line with the constitution that Abat and Johan have I mean, it's quite right exactly The only other thing he said is the fact that I think that the other statesman Clack was speaking Out of, I would say Sentiment just defied it so too But we don't consider it sort of an area and then need to see Ravage the way the Niger Delta has been And it seems they haven't treated it over the years Otherwise no one will complain And so I think the reason for the agitation and the reason for The fact that Abat, like that, at the country Feels the way it feels is because Yes, although the resources belongs to the whole of the country You do not, I mean you don't deal with the groups that need to go to the edge Which is actually what the government is doing in that area If you go to Patakot for instance That's true, it speaks to the air I'm going to have impact on the environment And over the years, even if you don't see it right now But over the years in my private situation where you get children Born and they're going to get all sorts of sickness and diseases Which evidently means that I think it's really fair that The people in that area Company and agitation Compensated There must be a suitable share of these resources as well If you go to where in the Niger Delta Where the resources are brought in from And then you go to a place like Abu Dhabi And you look at the number of people looking And then you understand where the other rich man is coming from Alright, let's also hear from Nika Gulli this morning Mr. Gulli can you hear us clearly Yes, I can hear you Okay, welcome Yes, we can clearly So let's also have you share your thoughts on Edwin Clark's argument You know, and of course he also got to mention You know, Basun just responded He also got to mention the Zamfara state example And the fact that there's gold mining going on in Zamfara state That doesn't seem to be going into the Federation's coffers And of course he also looked back at when oil was found In Loi Biri sometime in 1957 And the agreement that the country had then With regard to sharing of the proceeds from that oil So do you think that Elder Statesman Edwin Clark Does have a point that he's making And we maybe should take a lot more seriously Thank you very much for that question Before I answer your question Let me say that my own view on this Brief back between the two Elder Statesmen of Nigeria Chief of Basun Joe and Chief Edwin Clark Is that it is disappointing These people have both said they were They served in the federal cabinet of Nigeria in 1975 That is 46 years ago And I mean there are countries where 46 years ago They have become presidents So if these people have been at the hem of affairs In Nigeria for 46 years And today Nigeria is Involved in all sorts of myriad of issues These people have to be taking responsibility For contributing to where Nigeria is today Because they have had opportunities in the past To make Nigeria a greater nation than it is today So for me that's my view about What these Elder Statesmen are speaking about Also I want to say that We need to deal with first things first Before we even come to Who owns the mineral resources that are in the ground Let us look at the situation today The Niger Delta region Every month gets 13% derivation There is the Niger Delta Development Commission NGDC There is the Ministry for Niger Delta Affairs Then there is all sorts of social Corporate social responsibility projects Or monies from oil operating companies Into the region But if you go to the Niger Delta today Go to the creeks of the Niger Delta Go to where the oil is being produced In Nigeria For over 10 years Go to the replays where the oil is being produced If you look at the quality of life in those places You will weep If all these monies that I have mentioned 13% derivation All the budgets of the Niger Delta States Put together NGDC Ministry for Niger Delta Affairs If these interventions were going directly to those Who need them The Niger Delta region today will be like in Dubai Because development will be there for the people We are not seeing that And because we are not seeing that then it doesn't matter Whether 100% of the money goes to the Niger Delta Or it's 50% Or it's 30% as the other statesmen are debating The lives of the Niger Delta people The re-Niger Delta people is not going to change And for me that should be what should be occupying The time of these other statesmen They should be asking the questions About what is happening to the huge intervention funds That are meant for the Niger Delta We can be pumping this money into a region And year in year out The lives of the people are not changing The people are still living in polluting waters Living in In Ramshakut You know, taxed houses No electricity No carbon water For their people But that quote is not Niger Delta If you want to know Niger Delta Go to where the oil wells are I was there, I spent my time Working for oil companies in those places So for me I think the other statesmen need to divert their attention But let's also look at this The argument that you are putting out now Is that whether or not I mean we should be looking at how They have fed in managing You know the 13% that has been allocated to them I mean for some of the artifacts that you have Some of this western world take from African countries And because we Africans are careless We cannot manage our resources It therefore means that they should keep it Don't you think that whether or not they are managing it What I mean The cost that they are fighting for Should be justified I really don't Whether or not they are able to manage I mean it feels like you have children And then you give them The 1000 error You are saying okay because you haven't managed the 1000 And you are supposed to get 1000 I am going to reduce it Because you don't manage the 1000 that I have given And so I am therefore going to reduce it to 500 I feel like that's the argument That you are putting out this morning That's not the argument I am putting forward If I use your analogy If you have children And you give them 1000 error And they are not managing that 1000 error What I am saying is that If you are getting these children To manage the 1000 very well When they get to the point Where they can manage that 1000 very well Then you know you are going to give them 10,000 You are going to give them a million But because they are not managing this 1000 very well Even if you give them 1 million Or even a billion You can rest assured That they are not going to manage it very well So this is the argument I am putting forward You know And that is not to say That the federal resources Are embedded in Nigeria To not have a lion's share of the cake I am actually a federalist I believe in the federation Because Nigeria Even the name Nigeria is a scam Because we call ourselves The federal republic of Nigeria But we are actually operating A unitary system of government If that is not a scam I need someone to tell me the definition of a scam When I call myself something that I am not For each region Being responsible for their resources Because it was meant to Nigeria The current system now Where governments go to Abuja every month To go and take money That is largely coming from the oil industry That they have no knowledge of There are governments in Nigeria Who don't know what a Christmas tree is If you ask them what is a Christmas tree They may be telling you Christmas or 25 December They will not even know It is related to the oil industry But these governments take this money To their states And what do they do with it They just conduct it But if the governments were ready To tap from the resources That are embedded in their Look there is no state in Nigeria That is not viable If a state does not have Rich agricultural land They have tourist potential Or they have mineral resources Or they have all of those That are mentioning And if the governments pay attention To unlock value From these things Then Nigeria will develop Because there is no way Like I am from Benway state If my governor Pays attention to agriculture Which will have comparative advantage There is no way he can have Industrial mechanized agriculture Without employing the jobless youth That are on the street today So that is kind of value That will be created if every governor Spends time to think about how They will unlock resources from their state This whole feeding bottom mentality Of getting money from the oil West of Nigeria Taking it to Abuja And there are some sport keys 36 of them Every month go to Abuja to take money Is not the right way to go But they have been paying us down Under development But that is not to say That our agest statesmen should not be questioning What is happening to the current money That are going to the Niger data And to that point I think people are a drink crack Should be examining and Acting and raising protests And calling the governors of the Niger data To order to say What is happening to the humongous budget That you guys declare year in year out And the people in the creeks Are not having their lives changed Well, Mr. Agouli I'm sure a lot of people agree That those are very, very important questions And we've spoken about this numerous times How nobody seems to be holding The leaders of the Niger data To account With regards to billions of Naira That are sent through the NGDC The minister of Niger data affairs The governors and the allocations Monthly security votes Are also received from the Federation accounts every month It doesn't seem like a lot of questions Are going in that direction But there's also Some sentiments towards The 1963 constitution That was mentioned in this back-and-forth Between Ulysses Govassanjo And Edwin Clark So I want to talk about A little bit of some analysis On that aspect The 1963 constitution Basically states That Ulysses Govassanjo And the resources under the ground Belong to the Federation And Ulysses Govassanjo Also stated that Reminding Edwin Clark But why do you think That isn't also playing out In Zamfara state Like I asked earlier Why aren't we having the same Attention and focus And earning money from the gold In Zamfara As we are in the Niger Delta There are certain things in Nigeria That are not right That need to be corrected And this Zamfara gold mine As with the mining Of minerals across the nation Is concerned Like I said I'm from Benway State We have the Benway cement The former Benway cement company Which is now the Dangote cement The limestone is in the ground Is being extracted And converted into cement But I have never heard Of a construction going to the Federation account Where it is shared to all the 36 states of the Federation So Nigeria cannot progress If we continue to allow this kind Of inequitable and unfair practices To continue What is good for the goose Is good for the gander If the oil in the Niger Delta Is feeding the 36 states of the Federation So must all the minerals That are being extracted By the 36 states If that is not happening then It is going to cause anxieties And it's going to cause all Sort of issues Which is what we are talking about here So I am in full support That until our constitution Changes To a true federal constitution Where each of the regions As it may be Are in control of the resources Embedded in their grounds Every mineral resource Extracted anywhere On the surface of Nigeria Including the Zamfora Gold Must be fed into the Federation account Until we do that Then we are going to have these issues Okay, so as part of the Also some part of the letter The former president Is quoted to say that Negotiations would actually You'd better result than dictation What kind of negotiations Should the Niger Delta Should the country be Involved at this point in time As regards resource control Or the oil world Who has what and not So for me these are the issues That I would like The likes of the Aida statesman Edwin Clark to tackle Okay, we have a democracy now And I believe that With careful planning And execution Of agitation You will be able to get things done Even with this democracy That we have now So the states in the Niger Delta Each of them have three senators In the Senate They also have five, six, seven Probably ten House of Rep members In the House of Representatives Why is it that the likes of Edwin Clark Instead of engaging in letter writing Summon all the senators From the Niger Delta All the House of Rep members Look You will lose the support of the people If you don't go back to the Niger Delta And put bills on the table That will enable the Niger Delta And every other region in Nigeria Or state begin to control their resources Let us do this thing Through the constitutional way Which is the most legitimate and legal way To get changes done in Nigeria And if the senators And House of Rep members Don't abide to what the people are saying Then Edwin Clark Will have a movement To recall members of the National Assembly From the Niger Delta This is how you use democracy To get things done And what these members realize That their reform is going to be done there Yes I don't think this is likely to happen But even if we get there They still don't have the numbers To do that In the Niger Delta Even if you want to put Most of the senators or representatives But of course I'm sure you're also aware Of what has been stated in the past About their own fair figures In the National Assembly And that's a totally different conversation But they still They do not have the numbers to do that In any way And so it might be a little harsh To ask that they be recalled If they are not able to convince the National Assembly To have a constitutional review That puts these things in place You have a point But let's look at it from two perspectives The first perspective is That we cannot continue talking and writing letters Don't have that bill Or those bills On the table of the National Assembly Let it go down in history That members of the National Assembly From the Niger Delta Or any other region in Nigeria Is agitating including the Southeast And everywhere Have placed bills on the table Of the National Assembly Don't be surprised That there are all sorts of agitations Around the country All sorts of agitations And you will be surprised that If a particular section of the country Like the Niger Delta or Southeast Someone there Their members of the National Assembly And they place bills on the table You might be surprised that other regions Will back those bills Because they too have agitations In their mind You have to try something and fail But we never succeed at anything Except we try it Those who have built airplanes today The jumbo planes that were flying today They have to try it Before they succeed it If they talk about the enormity Of the issue that a flight can cost And all of that Will still be tracking today So I still believe that Edwin Clark and Co Should use the constitutional means We have today And let history record that But shouldn't we be more concerned Just like you have mentioned About what we're getting now How far have these Governors been managing What they get from the Federation account Shouldn't we be more concerned About that rather than asking For resource control Because at the end of the day You say that mismanagement Is always an issue And so if you look at it You want to look at the development Maybe we just ignore that entirely And stay focused with what they are getting And see how they can actually Translate that before we start talking About having Controlling our resources as states I agree with you I agree with you that we can take this thing In stages or even in parallel I think we can do multitasking So, notice stops Edwin Clark And the Ijon National Congress And all of those pressure Movements in the Niger data We need to examine and cross-examine And do inquisition Of their Governors Or what is happening to the budget The humongous looks about the Niger data States They are declaring budgets that are up to Three years the budget of other states In Nigeria Niger data state governments So they should be asking those questions About where their money is going Where is the 30% going Where is the NGDC going Where is the NGDC going Those questions must be asked But that doesn't stop A more sustainable solution To it Which is using constitutional means To actually operate a true federation In Nigeria There are many states in Nigeria That will be far better than what they are today If we are actually a fedrallist nation If we are operating true fedrallism So I agree with you that It shouldn't be one or Two or three states But we can do both Push them together Alright, let's bring back Victor Okai Into the conversation I want you to also speak with regards to the same thing You know a part of from President Olisha Gambasonga's letter says here The constitution that affects the Niger data region Affects and for our state Where gold is found And if anybody at the federal level Has remissed in implementing the constitution Then that's a different matter I want to say that the gold in Ilesha Oshun state Oshun state I beg your pardon And the lead in Eboni state All come under the same law and constitution And you know further So Victor Okai I want you to speak in response to Why The current Nigerian government And you know Nigeria as a country Rather is not Taking advantage of the other mineral resources That are found in different parts of the country Including in Enugu state Where there used to be coal Why isn't Nigeria taking advantage Of those mineral resources And generating more funds Why isn't that one of the things That you know that any government Comes into power And you know even puts apart As part of their campaign promises Victor Okai Well I just Yeah I got the answer It's all yours Normally you go for the Lower Tanging Puts And if it happens with more Mineral resources It makes you Publicities in language Even Asia You know with petroleum This is liquid gold And it's I mean it's I imagine most of our resources Come from there So I mean but there are countries That in The same way we leave off petroleum We leave entirely of gold And we have as much mineral resources I guess we have to say that We have a government That is very easy Very unimaginative And you know We just leave the easy way out Which is just Go for petroleum And then leave the Chinese To flaunt out the gold In Zafara for instance And private Individuals And unscrupulous politicians Or whether That the rest of us Are not aware of what is going on there So where That's exactly what's happening Unfortunately Oil was discovered A very large part of the search If we had started with gold Like Ghana for instance We probably would have done Better if oil had come later You know I mean if you ask me I really wish we had started With something like gold You know Or would have been the better For example Oil was just something An addition Not an alternative You know Which is That's why oil is The main thing Gold is just On the side And it's not fair Because This country should be Richer than it is right now We shouldn't be taking the loan That we're taking right now You know We should be able to Have better infrastructure Right now If we're able to Start with other Resources that are bound In very huge commercial And sustainable Parties Across the length of Breath of this country Oh These challenges are You know More than 50 years You know Running You know And we could have had You know This same conversation 20 years ago And had You know Pretty much the same conclusions But Victor Okay Just before we go I want you to also Speak on something The Alligations By Chief Edwin Clark You know To former President You know Issues with The Niger Delta Or hatred for The Niger Delta But I want you to Speak with regards The O.D. Incident That Accord During former President O.B. Bassinger's Time Does he have The Somehow Moral Justification To claim To love The people of The Niger Delta You know Without a proper Apology So what are you talking about Is it O.D. Or what? Yes You know Unfortunately The military Is trained Only one way Whether I'm in mind Is the Income Or out of Income Is only trained To kill I mean So When The Whatever I started At O.D. When they Killed Some military Men I Killed A fly It is Unfortunate But remember The same thing Happened at Zakibia That was The natural reaction Of the money Uniform And that Was Talk about To use That and say That He has That Mobid Hitch For the Niger Delta People Will not be Said Because We also Have The President Of Nigeria You know So If Anything He has done That much For the Niger Delta So I do not Think that That Acquisition Is Fair I think It is Unfounded And I think That The two of May Have a private Beef For Your time this morning Nika Guley also Thank you so much For joining us We enjoy Speaking with you both Always Have a great day Alright And We will Go on a Short break And move away From The Conversation On the Niger Delta Edwin Clark And Alicia Gov And then We are going to Talk about Nigeria's Power Sector Now