 Considering the time that we have we're gonna and I would ask the panelists to take notes because I'm gonna combine the questions We're not going one by one, but we're gonna combine them. So microphones are on standby. I believe Steve why don't you go first? I'm gonna come to all of you And we're gonna collect the questions and then I'm gonna throw it back for one last Q&A session with your audience Steve go ahead Ali Thank you, and thank you to the panel, which has been very good by the way I do want to throw it more to the future The war will eventually end it will end in negotiations, but there is already disagreement In the alliance about how we treat Russia afterward Do we have European security against Russia? Do we have European security with Russia? Do we have European security with America? Though worried about China the big question is What happens to Russia after this war, which is a much more interesting question, frankly Will it be a new time of troubles? Will it disintegrate? What will that do? But mostly I just want to get people to talk about how you look at Russia post-conflict in relationship to European Security and what kind of security guarantees can you provide Ukraine if as Zaki lady says outside NATO. I don't think they exist myself But perhaps I'm wrong. Thank you. Thank you Steve a question We'll be happy to incorporate What is security with Russia look like afterwards? How does Russia look? What does Russia look like the microphone thing is being passed We're moving to both sides. Go ahead. Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Please. Hello. Thank you for this fascinating panel Two quick questions. The first one has been Not on the remark of Mr. Zaki lady on the European rearmament Is it really credible? On the side of the motion that we have today because we can see that Both or not so much there is no future in our relationship to Russia without a military force in Europe Very powerful. So there are a lot of emotions, but will it last as far as the budget is concerned? That we have refused until now to devote to these subjects that will have to be devoted and second question very quickly The European Union, the integration of Ukraine in the European Union. This subject has not been mentioned. We have admitted it We all know what the reality of the economy is and the Ukrainian institutions We are engaged in a political process that we can see that it is absolutely Uncontournable but is it realizable or this integration Part of inevitably a vision of the long-term means of our relationship with the east of Europe Thank you so much. Microphone is coming all the way. I'm gonna get everyone in. I promise go ahead Yes, I have a marathon Two quick comments and a question there's unanimity in Europe in Supporting Ukraine and this will be helped by the good qualification of events I would react to the fact that events have been qualified by one of the members of the panel as Genocide for example, is there war crime on the scene? Last yes, obviously and this has to be condemned. Is there humanitarian crime This can be discussed. Is there a genocide? I do not believe that qualifying events this way helps supporting European unanimity In the situation. This is the first point the second comment when you alluded to Solzhenitsyn if I may Solzhenitsyn never denied the existence of Ukraine as an independent state He just said that probably this would be a difficult period that there might be war and that he would oppose His sons Potspating in the war that is what he precisely wrote if I may say the question is particularly from a French point of view But it goes beyond as the panel emphasised the war has made the penny about NATO drop for the French for example NATO was very often denied French politicians Talking about defense and defense in Europe very seldom Spoked about NATO just as if France did not belong to NATO actually and now the penny has dropped And I believe this is a good thing but as to Europe and Ebert Hedrin emphasised that the panel is supposed to be about the future I would ask the panel how the Value of the present situation for example when you've got a Franco-German cooperation on SCAF and Just about the same time an important announcement is made on this. You've got the Italian British Japanese Corporation on a competitor to SCAF for example, so Europe seems to be United Presently, but if we look to the future the division in Europe on industrial issues and others regarding security Seem to be just as strong as ever Thank you. Thank you so much moving the mic along. Yes, please go ahead Don't sit here certainly La Russie qui a dressé Lucraine va sortir affable même si elle est européenne de culture Yen Yoran rupture de confiance entre l'Europe et la Russie et la Russie De plus en plus va se déployer vers l'Asie l'Inde et la Chine et all les autres Allons pour moi est ce que ça n'est pas une opportunité bien sûr pour l'Europe d'une part de s'intégrer de se renforcer d'avoir une politique stratégie commune etc mais d'autre part surtout pour moi De s'intéresser à son autre géographie c'est à dire le sud à la nécessité pour l'Europe de se reconcilier avec le monde arabe et avec l'Afrique c'est avec ce monde qu'elle va pouvoir même gérer peut-être sa transition toutes ces transitions les transitions énergétiques entre autres en dehors du fait qu'elle a intérêt que le problème du développement et de la méditerranée soit résolu Merci Thank you so much. I think the young gentleman right next to you Had a question we'll get him the microphone. Can I see a show of hands? Who am I missing here? Right here in the first row and then the young gentleman. Why don't you go ahead? Yeah, while she's getting the mic. Thank you very much I think it's quite telling to see that only French speakers are talking about European defense and Independence indeed and it's quite disheartening actually to see that Germany for instance is pouring billions of dollars into American fighter jets although other opportunities are available in Europe Not just mentioning the Rafa brain in fact is it just because we listen too much to the goal that as French people We dream of a European independence or does it translate into English as well? That's probably a question for the foreign speakers here in the panel. Thank you very much Thank you so much. Go ahead, Daniel. I have mostly a comment more than a question and I want to make an analogy between Germany and Russia for following first world war and Germany when Germany was humiliated and what's plunging in hyperinflation This led to the rise of a belligerent figure like Hitler where and after a second world war When Germany was treated with respect and we had the Marshall plan We had a peaceful prosperous Germany So mean this is a great panel, but I don't see like the Russian perspective I speak a lot with Russians and they have a lot of grief in says they were promised if you talk to a Russian They he will tell you Gorbachev was promised the moon You know that if he will gonna dissolve the Soviet Union We're gonna have prosperity and but all this resulted in sweet lies So all what I'm saying. I hope that Ukraine will win, but I will slow. I hope Chat Russia after that I go back to Steven a question will be treated with respect with humility Just in order not to have Putin 2.0 because a defeat on Russia doesn't mean it's gonna become more peaceful. Thank you Thank you so much. I believe unless I have overlooked anything I believe we have everyone here. Everybody will get their share being mindful of the time of course Peter why don't you kick it off and then we'll we'll get everyone in here for the one last round? So thanks. Thanks for that really a great set of questions. I'm at this and comment So I'm trying to pick some of them and of course those pertaining everybody everybody pertain The first question the last one were actually referring to how to deal with Russia after the wall once it's over So what's the future been our relation with that with that huge country with these many many millions of Russians? But look, I mean Russia is a is a is a proud nation with a lot of history tradition and we have good relationships before that but matter of fact is the Change-through-trade concept approach that we tried with the hand reached out didn't work out Putin's Russia betrayed the world and They were like free riding on that. Yes There were stupid mistakes and that we had been alluded to earlier that we did especially in Germany to Increase our dependency especially when it comes to to Russian all-in-guess So I mean obviously there needs to be a future Relationship with Russia this the country and its people especially cannot be ignored We need to have something I hate to say I had to use that that that term But for lack of a better one is we need something like an off-ramp, and I'm not talking to With regard to Vladimir Putin, but for the nation for the country for the people of Russia which I have respect for But you know, it's way too early and now I try to connect that with the the first question with it with the last one This is absolutely not the time to talk about Respect treat, you know respectful treatment of Russia they are the aggressors and Russia is you know in the beginning we talked about In the beginning of the war we talked about well, it's it's Putin's war But as has been said on the panel earlier It's not only Putin's war. He gets a lot of support. It's Russia against Ukraine and the rest of the world Basically, so I think we should not give I would totally disagree to give Russia any representative of Russia a platform on this conference or any other At this point in time to you know lobby for themselves they have to first stop that war and Then then we could talk about right respectful treatment of About an off-ramp and but all else stop that war and then it's only the time to do that And I would there was enough there was a there was a question of a comment with regard to rearmament of Europe if that would be realistic and taking into account the The defense investment pledge that which means that by the time of 2024 NATO member states should increase their budget Defense budget To 2% at least of GDP, you know It is you know being being from Germany a German parliamentarian There was a lot of things that we did not do in the past especially during the term of President Donald Trump. We were heavily criticized by not doing enough and On the merits. He was right, but just the style was not really good We increase our defense bodies budgets over those past several years tremendously tremendously really by by at least 50% and we are stepping up to that and I We are fully committed to reach that 2% goal and keep that German chancellor Who's not from my party, but during his speech that I mentioned early on the 27th of February Said very clearly very clearly from now on each and every year Germany will spend 2% of its GDP just for defense For for the defense budget. So from my perspective and from a German perspective Let there be no doubt that we will live up to our commitments that we met Also for our own security interest, but also as a commitment As a return to our partners with a NATO as a reliable partner and it's very clear from your words That's obviously this goes beyond a party being in power or in opposition. This is a unified German position stands and stern and frank words about Russia there Bogdan everybody is gonna chime in here before we wrap up Clitch go ahead some of the questions Steve frankly speaking There was a great wisdom after the Second World War That was focused in one sentence Beginning with keeping Americans in I would say that because we witness right now the first full-scale war in Europe after 1949 We should refer to this a wording and my very short Answer for your question would be to keep Americans in Russians down and Make the European Union more stronger Let's think in those categories secondly When you mentioned Sadly about the about the necessity of reinforcement of the European Pilar within NATO I Keep in mind the famous concept of European security and defense identity ESDI That according to my understanding of the history is completely outdated Because after a ESDI was put aside There was a great beginning of European security and defense policy once again Began in 1998 after the meeting of Tony Blair and Jaczy Huck and now we have at our disposal within the European Union common security and defense policy with Plenty of instruments several Tools that can be used in a variety of situations in variety of options The problem is still with With with funding those tools and with from time to time the lack of political will to use them if we use Everything that was included into the Lisbon Treaty all our achievements after 2017 European Defense Fund Mechanism Cart and other other Tools CDA we will be able to be much more effective by the European Union then Concentrating on reinforcement of the European pillar within NATO I don't want to under undermine the necessity of Let's say better Involvement of European partners within NATO I'm in favor of reinforcement of CSDP within European Union and better collaboration between NATO and the European Union in the sense of both declarations from 2016 and from 2018 that created a new framework for the cooperation between those two organizations As for the genocide We discussed that in Europe If what we witness in Ukraine is or is not genocide. I'm I'm convinced That theoretically and practically in several places in Ukraine. We observe genocide And when you go to Borodianca, for example in and in this small city, you see five buildings three of them were hit Because they were of how to say in English Bet on pieces, you know and those pieces, you know were easier to destroy and Those who were built that were built of bricks were not destroyed was not were not a hit because of This first category of buildings when heated were easier to murder More people inside. Is it a genocide or not? Is it only a war crime or not? It is a complex extermination of the nation It is an ideology of the extermination of the nation theoretically and Practically and let's not forget about that but even when we don't If there are controversies concerning that there is one crime That is not assessed and that should be tried by the special tribunal and this is the time the crime of aggression That's why together with my colleagues from various parliaments. I mean the chiefs of Foreign affairs and European Union committees We call on European governments to create the special tribunal to assess the crime of Aggression by Vladimir Putin and his inner circle. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much some of the questions were addressed to you directly and President I'm gonna come to you of course as well as I will to Zaki being mindful of the time go ahead The last question Concerned on the first question the future I think it was Steve against or with the russia the spirit of defense has been awakened in Europe Parputin and so the answer is obviously against the russia So the defense of Europe is awakened in the framework of the time Parputin against the russia He will come maybe a moment for certainly a moment but I don't know when in a certain time he will have to rethink The security with the russia as a neighbor and I hope that at that moment The occident will raise its maniacism which is fundamental in the occident to go to the same audacity the same intelligence the same strategic efficiency strategic that the great American leaders of the time of the Cold War Before the time of triumphalism But it's not for now It's after after tomorrow. I don't know when so first against then after I don't say what I want I say what I analyze not a point that in my opinion in terms of European pillars since Zaki used the expression It's back It's not an opportunity now. It's a question that will be asked after when the Europeans will ask questions about the strength and the durability of the American commitment That's the first question but you have to work on it There are elements there are procedures there are tools but I speak mentally We can see what the European opinion is today and this round table shows it by the way Sur la question de fatale ouel al ou opportunité pour l'Europe de s'intéresser au sud en reprenant le l'ancien langage je ne le sens je le souhaite énormément et je ne le sens pas du tout les européens sont pas du tout dans cette phase ils sont complètement réoccidentalisé à l'ancienne à cause des décisions aberrondes de poutine mais c'est comme ça ils n'ont pas la capacité ils peuvent même pas l'imaginer et comme ils sont donc redevenus maniché un suite à l'agression de poutine ils sont pas capable d'imaginer par rapport au 40 pays qui n'ont pas condamné la Russie alors que la question est évidente 40 pays représentant 60% de l'humanité ils sont pas capable d'imaginer une politique correspondant à cette à cette question par rapport au nouveau non aligné je pense qu'il le faudrait mais ils vont pas réagir comme ça ils ont essayé de harceler les non alignés d'au reproche moro juridique politique mais je ne crois pas que l'Europe d'aujourd'hui au sein de laquelle vers une bataille d'influence de main entre polon, ukraine, france, alemane etc. et tous les autres je crois pas qu'elles soient capables de penser cette politique là et à mon avis ça va être une nouvelle occasion stratégiquement qu'est je regrette d'avoir à dire ça mais c'est comme ça que je sens les choses en dépit des efforts énormes de beaucoup d'europeans je regrette d'avoir à dire ça Thank you President Alvector your final remarks and then Mr. Zaki you're gonna get the final word. Yeah, thank you very much You know I think since the start of this war millions of Russian people actually protested against this war You know Putin and Russian people are two different things also with the start of this war Putin brought big loss in Russia economic loss military loss most importantly confidence loss in Russia and that's very bad thing also one thing I would like to brought to in light because you know that mobilization Russian mobilization Are now more focused there are more forceful mobilization for ethnic minorities in Russia disproportionate ethnic minorities are mobilized to the war in Russia most of them originally origin from the Mongol decisions, you know Buryats Kalmyk and others mobilized this proportionately To this war putting is killing Ukrainians in Ukraine, but in Russia putting is Killing ethnic minorities in Russia putting is using ethnic minorities like a cannon fodder We have to pay to this attention. This is very very very important issue also With the start of mobilization We opened our border to the ethnic minorities to the people from Russia to Mongolia. We have big border with Russia We received thousands of people from Russia and I think if there is one less man with gun against Ukraine I think that's also great contribution for the peace in Russia and after this war there will be big Kind of the development and the big change gonna be in Russia And I think that's still happening in a mindset of people not only outside of Russia also inside of Russia You know to be part of the Russia or how to how to deal with these Consequences of war and that that is indeed the the very important questions They've learned it to it of course not only what the future of the European Union will look like but what the future of Russia Will look like once this war is over on the last point on European Union I think European Union is greatest project which we have our humanity I think after war this is the test for European Union I think after this war European Union will be more united more stronger and Also other parts of world should follow the suit for example in Asia We have a 48 United Nations members. We have not such establishment like in Europe for example now Myself and other people are Contemplating idea to put kind of the Council of Asia idea, you know How how about how how to find kind of consolidation in Asia in Europe? There are almost Yeah, 50 years that consolidation and it will be more stronger So Europe will be more stronger isn't outside a perspective something exactly lady that I'm sure you Would attest to take it away. I've made my first presentation in English for the sake of Frank O'Fony, I will give my answers in French Bon sur la Russie sur la Russie l'avenir de la Russie la l'avenir de la Russie il dépend d'abord de la Russie Il dépend d'abord de la Russie Fondamentalement quel est le problème de la Russie c'est le renoncements à son identité impérial au profit d'une identité plus national Je vous invite si vous l'avez pas fait à lire un article Remarkable qui a été écrit à plus de 20 ans par un ar russe qui s'appelait Alexander Liebed dans lequel il a clairement posé les termes de l'avenir de la Russie entre une identité national déterminé par les frontières de la fédération russe et une identité impérial Tant que la Russie tant que la Russie ne fera pas ce travail de rupture Elle aura des problèmes et nous aurons des problèmes avec elle alors on va me dire mais c'est très difficile Mais oui c'est très difficile mais oui c'est très difficile moi je discute avec mon avec borrel tous les jours de ces questions et il me dit tu sais pour l'espagne la perte de cuba a été une terrible tragédie mais oui mais oui La perte de l'Algérie a été pour la France aussi une tragédie Mais l'Espagne comme la France sans son sorti en renonçant à leur projet impérial il faudra bien qu'un jour la Russie Fasse cet effort qu'elle n'a pas réussi à faire Probablement probablement à cause de la nature de son régime et de toute façon il n'y a pas que l'Ukraine Il y a ce qui se passe en Asie centrale où on voit très très bien la volonté de de sortir de l'orbitrusse peut-être pour rentrer dans l'orbite chinoise c'est pas si ils gagneront au change enfin bon c'est C'est la dynamique donc c'est le passage d'une identité impérial à une identité national Bon pour ce qui est de la défense européenne Ecoutez moi je reviens de Washington où nous avons tous les ans un dialogue entre l'Union européenne et les États-Unis sur la Chine au plus haut niveau Américains et très clairement très clairement les américains nous disent Il faut que vous consentiez un effort militaire beaucoup plus important que vous soyez beaucoup plus autonome car c'est vrai que pour nous nous allons et nous avons D'autres priorités donc c'est pas être contre l'OTAN c'est pas contre les États-Unis avec lesquels fondamentalement nous avons les mêmes valeurs quoi qu'on en dise mais l'Europe qu'on le veuille ou non devra être la garant de sa sécurité avec le soutien des États-Unis et heureusement d'ailleurs puisqu'aujourd'hui et le chef d'état-major français l'a dit que s'il y avait aujourd'hui une guerre de haute intensité l'armée française qui est la plus puissante d'Europe ne tiendrait pas plus de dix jours bon donc le soutien américain il est absolument essentiel mais quand moi je parle d'autonomie ou de responsabilité stratégique j'ai en tête et je pense que nous sommes certains en voie en tête une idée qui consiste à dire que il faut que nous apprenions à penser par nous-mêmes notre propre avenir notre propre sécurité c'est pas contre les américains pas contre les états-unis mais penser par nous-mêmes parce que personne ne pensera à nous-mêmes à notre place et si on le fait c'est pas pour la bonne pause bien 3e point unfortunately we have to wrap up so we can wrap up the session mais inimaginable destiné à rendre l'Europe responsable de la crise alimentaire bon qu'est-ce que nous avons fait le représentant il a envoyé une lettre à au cinquante-deux ministres africains des averses étrangères dans lequel il leur a expliqué que les céréales n'étaient absolument pas couverts par les sanctions et il leur a dit si vous avez des problèmes notamment de over-compliance qui se pose adressez-vous à nous nous avons ouvert une ligne une hotline et nous avons réglé un certain nombre de problèmes mais on peut pas on peut pas accepter l'idée qu'un ministre je ne serai pas africain disent à Borel ce sont les sanctions qui sont responsables de la crise et quand on lui a dit qui est responsable qui vous a dit ça il nous dit ses poutines voilà thank you so much ladies and gentlemen the future of Europe and European security after Ukraine I think I speak for all when I say this is subject matter we could sit here until 8 p.m. and probably still not have covered all aspects but I think you would agree that this this panel in a very splendid manner managed to give us a very content rich debate which I'm sure will also be used for the discussion with Foreign Minister Kuleba later on throughout the day and the 8 a.m. session on any given day song name is never an easy task so just for that please join me in thanking this wonderful panel thank you so much