 Thank you and welcome. This is the Vermont House of Representatives Education Committee and we are here on April 10th and this morning we are going to be looking at COVID response in higher education and this morning we're going to start with Susan Stitely of the Association of Vermont Independent Colleges and I think what we really want to know Susan is how's it going? What's the report from the field? Thank you for having me and I also thank you for continuing to do your difficult jobs during this difficult period. It's going okay at the colleges. We do have some students still remaining on campuses and those are mostly international students or US based students whose homes aren't safe to go to or don't have homes to return to. So right now we have 609 students on various campuses and I don't know if you have the information I sent this morning but I can sort of run down the list of where they are. So to support those students essential staff are reporting to work. Maybe Avery you could bring that list up. Sorry I just sent it so she's probably just getting it. Okay great. So you'll see there where the students are being housed and the campuses that they're on and so essential workers are there supporting those students while they're on campus. I don't think it's easy for those students but they're trying to observe all the state restrictions and you know living separately and you know keeping distance from each other so that will most likely continue and still as long as this stay at home order is in place. All the campuses have transitioned to remote learning online learning and the technological piece is going pretty well. There's been a lot of creativity and resiliency amongst getting that started and it was helped by the fact that many of the campuses already had online programs so it was fairly easy for them to transition. Internet infrastructure is a problem still in Vermont and still where some of the students are living. So like you have rural, sterling college you know that has internet problems up in the northeast kingdom and they're doing everything online. There's also students in rural areas and in urban areas who don't have access to wi-fi at home and so that's making things difficult for them. So I know you know broadband has always been an issue in Vermont and we urge you to continue working on that because in situations like this it's really key that students have access to that. For the students there's a lot of challenges you know they've been through a lot of emotional roller coaster this semester having to relocate SIS 900 students from SIT had to return to the state and then go home. The cancellation of commencement so for seniors it's been a really rocky road and disappointing time and then the transition to online learning can be difficult for some students. So you know students are at home having trouble focusing. Some students have had to go back to work. One student and the book board with New Hampshire is working at Walmart to support his or her family so those are all challenges that students are really having. So the colleges have their support systems in place and are working to track those students that are having trouble and keep in touch with them but there are going to be students who aren't going to make it this semester because of that. So just a few examples that I put in the report of what the colleges are doing. They're providing self-care workshops. They're reaching out to students online doing telemedical services online. The ELS has a medical health team trying to do well-being exercises and advice and also keep the communities together through chatting and provide counseling and anxiety and fear and isolated connectedness. So they're all the colleges are really reaching out to their students in that way but to give you a personal example one of the teachers told me of a student who was back in a urban area in his neighborhood this week there were seven shootings on one night and one person was murdered. His Wi-Fi access in his home is really limited so of course he's you know we're everything is closed so he can't go to whatever might be have been available in his neighborhood to get Wi-Fi access and keeping track of that students and the teachers and the community are reaching out to him but he's gone off the grid right now. So we are going to see a decline in enrollment and some students lost this semester and probably not coming back next semester. I did want to particularly mention Landmark College because they serve students with learning disabilities so they've been working hard with those students. They did already have some online programs so that has helped but particularly that group of students needs extra support and you know on campus they get personalized attention and personalized learning plans and so all of that is now helping happening through online which is really difficult for students that might be challenged to work that way. So I think almost every college is facing that that there's some students that are having a hard time with the transition whether it just be a couple of online having to support their families being in an environment that's not conducive to doing college work. For the colleges future planning is really difficult. You know most are anticipating that they'll lose 10% of their students right now for this semester and there's estimates about how much fall enrollment will down maybe up to 30%. You'll have students who are afraid to come back or families that are afraid to send them back. Students who are going to be afraid to fly and students who are going to be have started different lives like having to work and support their families. So we're looking at a dip and fall enrollment. The colleges have taken a huge huge financial hit already refunding tuition and board. It's going to be more lost revenues. The federal CARES Act is providing some relief but it's really insufficient. It's a drop in the bucket and I know there's talk about another fourth stimulus package coming but I think it's going to be impossible to make these colleges whole. So definitely we're going to need more financial help. I know the governor is going to have some money coming from the CARES Act that should be designated for higher education and I hope you'll consider looking at that to provide some support to the students not only the public colleges but the private colleges as well. I did want to mention what the colleges are doing to help support the state and local entities during this time and I won't go through this entire list. You've probably heard of some of them. Goddard College has been in the news a lot with their possible plan of supporting homeless and disabled populations that are vulnerable that need some housing and maybe have COVID symptoms but don't need to be hospitalized. Others colleges have been in touch with hospitals and are working on agreements with them nor which has provided everything that they could as far as gloves, laboratory goggles, sanitizing wipes. They've also given to their town their annual gift that they give them early so that there's no cash flow problem and St. Michael's of course has an EMT squad and they're working with the local police department and all are willing and want to stand up and to be here to support the community of Vermont. One of the big issues around that and I think it's one of the issues why Goddard hasn't been able to finalize its contract is the liability issues and although that is being put into the contracts that are being drafted it's really got to be the colleges have to have immunity from liability. If they get one lawsuit from having medical personnel on on their campuses or you know the vulnerable population that could destroy the college. I have asked the governor I sent him to issue an executive order giving immunity to the colleges. I'm hoping he might do that today although I don't really anticipate that he will but in which case I'll be coming back and maybe he will do it later. I haven't gotten an update on that. It would be much faster to have an executive order granting immunity to the colleges than they could just step right up when needed instead of having to go through a contract negotiation. If he's unwilling to do that I'll be back at the legislature asking for legislation to give the colleges immunity. They want to be there they're willing to be there and they just need to be protected so I'm hoping you will support that. Lastly I was asked to talk about the legislation S224 about post-secondary educational institutional closings. I would respectfully ask that the committee strike you know the first section of that that puts the onerous A1 section 175 A1 that has AVIC members being responsible for colleges that have been taken care of their college records. You know AVIC is an association really a trade membership group like the Vermont Farm Bureau. I think if a Vermont farmer had an environmental accident or incident and couldn't pay for it you wouldn't ask in all the farmers to contribute to that because we are not a system we're not like the state colleges. So I would ask that that be struck and you know this legislation of course got started because of the Burlington College issue. In the last year we've had four other colleges close. Green Mountain College, Southern Vermont College, College of St. Joseph and Marvel will be closing at the end of this semester and all those institutions have taken care of their academic records. So this is legislation because of one unique institution and I think it's always a dangerous president to legislate for one unique situation. In the legislation on page two I think there's we had proposed that each institution as soon as they go on probation that within 60 days of being placed on probation they have to submit an academic plan to the secretary for approval and that gives plenty of time you know probation usually lasts for two years sometimes though that hasn't happened but it puts it the burden where it should be on the institution and it puts it with them upfront of developing that plan quickly and getting approval and then the legislation that's already in existence allows you know for a remedy should that not happen. So I I propose that that is sufficient and then I would also ask that the last section be struck section two on transition if you strike the first because that that is when that it goes into effect and when each member must sign the MOU. So I welcome questions on any of those topics more about the colleges and what they're doing and students or this as well. Okay sorry um so would you suggest then that this we're not we're not looking for things we're not looking for work right now we are basically focused on things that are really must pass so if this waited another year this would not be a problem for you. It would not be a problem. Okay um but do you know what the finance do you have any what's that what is the stimulus from CARES right now for the independent colleges? You know the allotment just came out yesterday and I haven't had a chance to add up the numbers for the private colleges so that so they're what they're going to get directly what each college is going to get directly in grants for students so that information just became available yesterday so I'll try I'll add I want to look at that today and I'll get that to you. So we have expectations that there may be some other others of our independent colleges that are going to be potentially facing closure is that possible? That's certainly possible. Okay questions um representative Kotlin. Yeah I don't I guess you kind of just touched on it Kate I'm you know I think as everybody is very concerned we already had some private colleges that were teetering on the brink looking at lower enrollment now they're having to you know pay refunds for housing and and board and then potentially looking at even lower enrollment next year so it does seem like we we this this could be a a bleak situation Susan are are are these guys in contact with one another on a regular basis um and uh are they are they all sort of having kind of a uniform policy in terms of refunds of lodging and food have they figured out how to how to do that or if they can even afford to do that I guess let me ask how many of them can't even afford to do that? Um no one has said at this point that they can't afford to do that but they're looking at their budgets so AVIC is holding weekly phone calls with the presidents not just the private college presidents but the publics are also joining in on those phone calls and we have talked about uh these issues um you know it's a little tricky because uh the publics I don't think are under this restriction but private colleges are if they do a coordinated approach like to refunds uh that could be in violation of anti-trust laws so we have been sharing information about what people are doing but there is no coordinated approach to that it's up to each uh individual institution yeah um Kathleen did you put your question answered? yes I think for now thanks okay Sarita Austin um I'm wondering in the CARES Act I was hearing that maybe um student loan repayment might be delayed and they may they may waive the interest payments on those have you heard anything in terms of some some some uh payback to the students? yes there's definitely going to be money going to the students uh and for example uh there there is for the money that's set aside for higher education 50 percent is going to the institutions to fund uh students who need help uh and support and some of their expenses 50 percent will go to the institutions and there are some uh moratoriums on low repayment as far as I know thank you okay thank you um very much Susan I don't see any other questions at this point we appreciate your coming in and giving us that update I know that we'll probably be hearing from you again next year thank you thank you so um and you're welcome to continue to stay and listen in um next up is Wendy Cohnig for uh the University of Vermont good morning everybody um thanks for having me in today um I'm going to give you a little bit of a general overview of of what's happening at UVM but I wanted to start this conversation by offering condolences to the committee um on the death of former representative Jesquitz I think as many of you know he was a trustee at UVM for almost six years has been an incredible advocate for the work that we do and for our students and also a really wonderful personal friend of mine so wanted to acknowledge that and offer condolences to everybody on on his past and we're going to really really miss him um in terms of what's happening at UVM as you all know students are online doing their learning for the rest of the semester we announced earlier this week that also all of our summer programs will be conducted exclusively online we will not have any residential programs happening this summer as Susan stated I think she covered a lot of sort of what's happening with students there are um while we think that online is the safe and right thing to do right now for students that can be challenging um we do have a lot of support systems in place at UVM the Center for Teaching and Learning the Center for Writing um different areas that students can get support and help if they're having difficulty with their online classes um and I saw a note that went out from our provost to faculty yesterday that was giving them some support in um continuing their online coursework offering them some um resources for help in develop continuing to develop those to um making them the best that they can possibly be so I think that we're trying very um hard to make sure that we maintain the quality of coursework um in an online setting for students and that we're supporting faculty um in the best ways that that we can well because you know I will say this is this is a difficult thing for students to learn in a different environment but I also think that it is um it's hard for faculty because not all of them are used to teaching in an online environment either so um the other thing I would mention is that um this is a very unprecedented situation in terms of recruitment and as Susan mentioned um we're all I think UVM the state colleges the independent colleges are all very worried about enrollment particularly for fall um we don't know if we'll be able as of yet to have students come back and be in person um on campus during the fall semester even if we are able to do that as Susan mentioned I'm sure we'll we're planning for some significant attrition of students who don't feel safe coming coming back to campus um or have other challenges and coming back to campus so right now our admissions team and our enrollment management team has been um trying to be very innovative in ways to show students what UVM is when they can't come physically onto campus so providing things like our admitted student days um in an online format um sending special communications to families and students giving them information about UVM and ways that they can contact us and and be in touch with us so which we're working really hard on that um there's a lot of things that are happening at UVM um that I think are are exciting and maybe give folks a little bit of of hope in some of these weird times um as uh the land grant and research institution we put a lot of focus and resources right now into um what we can do to help with the COVID-19 situation so I'm sure all of you have read online about what we're calling the Vermontilator which is um a collaboration with engineering and medical faculty um to create a new kind of ventilator that might actually be even better for people that have this illness um because it helps um with inflating the lungs in a different way that might be more beneficial to um this kind of disease so those right now there's an application in front of the FDA to be able to start producing those and we've had a lot of good support and help from our congressional delegation in trying to get that fast tracks because we're going to be able to produce those for a very low cost um and would like to start getting them out to Vermont but also other states as quickly as we possibly can to help with this situation um also right now we have about 117 students left on campus um that's significantly down we've had almost everybody go home except those 117 represent international students that are barred from going to their home countries at this time but we are not really using the kitchens um that we have on campus because there's very few students to I mean we are providing meals for those folks but um we're not using all of our capacity so we've been using our kitchens to produce meals for healthcare workers mostly at UVMMC and also out at Fannie Allen so we're happy that we can do something like that that's helpful um since we have very limited folks on campus we've given some of our parking lots to UVMMC employees so that they don't have to take shuttles and ride in a compacted area together um this week I've also heard that one of our parking lots has been taken by the National Guard to set up a new um testing center because you know the fairgrounds is getting pretty crowded so we've got a new testing center site at UVM um and let's see oh the the last thing is that um UVMMC and as everybody knows there's there's a lot of issue with capacity for um processing the COVID-19 tests and so our College of Medicine has taken their lab space and is now assisting UVMMC with processing those tests so that we can get them done faster and more efficiently and maybe do more testing so um that is a lot of what's happening uh right now at the university um you know as Susan said we are concerned um about fall enrollment we're concerned about the loss of revenue um to institutions um based on that the CARES Act as Susan said um it is helpful in many ways the money that will come directly to the University of Vermont um is about seven million dollars that will be divided as she said into two pieces about 3.5 will be able to be used by the university for um some either revenue losses that we're taking in terms of reimbursements to students and families um also some technology costs for online courses that sort of thing the other half will be used for emergency grants for students and that can be used for anything related to COVID problems um child care health care transportation um you know food things that they need so right now what we're trying to get is some guidance from the federal government on you know administering those kind of programs and making sure that we're not violating any of their rules and we're spending that money in exactly the right way um everybody state and federal government as we all well know is incredibly overwhelmed at the moment so we we've had some trouble getting guidance from the federal government on CARES Act questions um but we're we're just waiting for the Department of Education US DOE to come out and give us a little bit more guidance on that and in my conversations with Senator Leahy staff this morning they think that money will flow by the end of this month so you know we're we're expecting it to come in relatively quickly um so uh I think that's about all I have to report if anybody has questions I'm happy to take them. Caleb Elder. Thank you uh and thanks for the update and um it's really interesting to hear uh and heartening to hear about the work with the ventilator I've been reading with that in past days and exciting to think that that innovation is happening yeah right here and now that let's appreciate that update um I'm interested in that I think you said 117 international students um and I'm just uh I guess I'm wondering uh given the uncertainty and for all probably the different countries involved with with different um orders in terms of travel is there any kind of um on on UVM's sort of uh commitment to to house and feed these folks uh is it just sort of indefinite are they going to be sort of under the care of UVM you know regardless of what happens this summer or is this a situation where in May um I can say I have a friend who's an international student elsewhere in the country and and they're facing um uncertainty about housing starting in early May and I so I'm just kind of wondering what what those students can expect heading into the summer um if they are not able to travel um you know Caleb I don't really know the answer to that question I'm happy to check in and find out a definitive answer as far as I know our plan is to care for them until they're able to go home um and so I think we're thinking that they're they're sort of for the long haul um but I can double check on that for you and and send you an email with a with a definitive answer on that really appreciate that thank you yeah no problem and Catherine James yeah thanks um I I think I know the answer to this but I just want to confirm um I have been been getting some questions from constituents um who are concerned about defaulting on their student loans and I I've just been directing them to the um resources and information that are available on the bsac page is there anything better I should be telling these folks to do I know they're very concerned yeah um Kathleen that's a great question and um there is a lot of information on that on the us do we website and if you go to their home page it's sort of in bold right on the front page um and they list some some pretty significant information on that student loans are going to um be suspended for six months is what what came out of the cares act so if people are worried um about default they should go to that us do we page or they can also call their lender um and make sure that um they are um eligible for for that I mean I think at this point pretty much everybody is so I think that that will give people some comfort that for six months they can they can stop paying on the loans um that would be just federal loans so right uh yes and I'm not I'm not certain about the bsac loans um I don't know the answer to that part sorry great no thank you for that though because I I have not been also directing people to the us do e so that gives me one more resource for them so thanks I appreciate it yeah you're welcome questions here I don't see any um so at this point that you do not see any emergency uh statutory changes that are necessary in your functioning or uh and that question goes to you too Susan not to my knowledge at the moment now um you know I I think that that we're in we're in good shape in terms of of statutory things um and and we'll see you know how things move on from here I think a lot I think for independence publics I think a lot depends on what happens for fall and and it's just too early for us us to know the answer to that yet um just to add what I mentioned the immunity for colleges you know providing support if the governor doesn't do it in executive order I think we need that to come from the legislature and that's just for just for the colleges that are providing support to address the COVID-19 housing issues exactly and I can share with you the draft executive order I did so you can see how that's framed yeah that would be great if you could send that upon okay in terms of the the independent colleges coordinating fees that gets into federal law so I don't think we can do anything about that um you know one thing I'll just mention to you guys um is that when with this federal stimulus for that's sort of in development right now the congressional delegation has been reaching out to us asking us you know what our needs are and and what things could be included in that that haven't been covered or weren't covered well enough in CARES Act and as Susan said you know we're we're really grateful for the federal funding that's coming you know it's not none of this funding is ever going to make anybody whole and quite frankly as a citizen of this country I get really worried when I see the amount of money that's going into some of these stimulus packages people really need it but it's also daunting to see the level of funding um one thing that we were talking to the congressional delegation about is when we look to fall and think about families so many folks have had their incomes lowered significantly and so additional money for federal student aid is important but also it's important to have a fix for the FAFSA because currently FAFSA looks at prior year tax returns so people's current financial situation wouldn't be taken into consideration so we have asked that um we think stimulus four is going to be more of an authorizing legislative type of fix of a of a package more than another huge financial package that we could have another huge financial package a little bit later down the line but one of the things we're asking them to consider is some emergency thoughts about changing the FAFSA to allow families to show what their income changes have been for this year okay thank you keep us posted on that yeah we'll do um if there aren't any more questions for for our UVM I would like to go on to um Jeb Spalding who will speak to us about the state college system good morning chair Webb morning it's a pleasure to see you all I haven't seen anybody wearing a tie for a while and I haven't worn a tie for a while myself so thank you for that opportunity and it's certainly been a very wild ride for the last month for colleges and universities around this country I was looking back a month ago on the 11th of March or 10th of March we were still wondering whether it would be better to keep our students on campus or send them home and our students that are for the most part had already come back from a spring break and were on campus as opposed to some that were getting ready to send their students on a break and in that month it's been a non-stop reacting to changing conditions on a daily basis and I'm incredibly proud of the feet that you know the independent colleges and the university and the Vermont state colleges did by going 100% remote in the course of mainly a week for most people sometimes it was it was two weeks but that took quite a lift you know there are many stories of how it's working well and many others where the the challenge is for students and some faculty members everything from you know the way they learn to their ability to access internet or appropriate technology has been an issue some of our colleges have gone out and to the extent they can get them gotten laptops to students so they could participate but there's some supply issues there too so you know we've been working very hard there's you know one important thing to say about the Vermont state colleges as a group as opposed to any of the other institutions in the state of Vermont you know we are a single corporation with multiple institutions within it so it's a number of moving parts so the way community college in Vermont which is the is the college that has the largest you know headcount the largest enrollment of any of our colleges how they're reacting and being affected is different than the other colleges so when I look at community college Vermont they made the decision right away they were going online for the rest of the semester and you know and now they're pretty much made the decision that they will be fully online for the summer too they were they were almost 50% delivery online when this COVID-19 situation hit so it was still a lot of work for them but they were they were it wasn't the same kind of situation where maybe at a Vermont tech for example where you know you were trying to figure out how you're going to teach diesel technology online or remotely it's not all online but remotely and so ccv is is 100 online you know community colleges around the country have been counter-cyclical to the economy so oftentimes when the job market is like bad and people are unemployed is when they tend to enroll in community college Joyce Judy president Judy tells me that that is they're across the country they're not sure that's going to materialize in this particular situation because there's so much you know current disruption in people's daily lives and their ability to feel comfortable working or going online and so forth that they're not sure that this is not going to be an enrollment issue for community college Vermont to some extent maybe not the same issues as other colleges so you know ccv at the moment is uh uh is is okay as as a system uh i think you represented matters were you raising your hand or are you i was waving to somebody driving by on the street sorry okay that's all right so you listen you know you know because we've told you before that the Vermont state college's system has been in a fairly fragile situation and around the country uh you know the the rating agencies have you know moved higher education across the country uh from you know you know sort of mild least negative to decidedly negative uh and the colleges and universities that were the had the most uh the least buffer and the and had the most financial challenges are the ones that are most challenged and i have to say that uh you know across this country uh you know the country and every state is in a state of emergency many cities like the city of Burlington are in a state of emergency and uh post-secondary education colleges and universities across this country are at least many in a state of crisis so you know for the Vermont state colleges as a single corporation uh we were looking at uh for the at the end of the second quarter uh perhaps a four million dollar operating deficit for the fiscal year 20 that we're in and the presidents were working very hard to lower that number and it you know when things are sort of up in the air now that we've in the middle of March when the third quarter was still going on uh you know so we still had quite a bit left in this fiscal year COVID-19 hit us but they had probably worked that down to maybe maybe two and a half or three million dollar expected loss we know that our we have made the decision like virtually every other college and university in the country that it is the right thing to do for students to offer them a refund on the unused portion of dorms and dining room and board and the way we're doing that is we said okay we're definitely going to do it it'll be pro rata the college is we're figuring out that uh but we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna reimburse you uh within 90 days of the time the dorms were uh vacated so we have a little bit more time to actually uh sort of fit that into our our payment schedule but that's going to be uh last I saw for the corporate level 5.6 million dollars um then there is uh in may and june uh some six things you know not not the same scale as as roman board or tuition but there there is or a regular semester tuition but there events and camps and uh at castleton they've had for 40 years representative capoli the uh some kind of drum and bugle core from down in boston that comes up and that there is a I think it was $110,000 contract that was that was canceled early so uh you know we're looking really at a approximately a 10 million dollar operating loss in this fiscal year and that includes you know just so to uh so that's a challenge there's no question about it we are looking at ways to access some additional financing to tide us over not to meet payroll but to meet some of our unanticipated losses uh and the transition costs uh we are uh you know actively talking with the federal delegation I'm sure that uh Susan Stitely and Wendy Koenig have already told you that uh we do appreciate what the feds uh have done I don't hope that's okay word to use what the federal government has done to congress and and and Washington but uh you know for us uh the the money in the CARES Act is is about uh just over six million dollars and that has to go out uh 50 percent to assist our students that are in need and that's a wonderful thing and we're very supportive uh but that leaves about three million to cover our room and board losses and other losses of revenue so you know maybe it's going to cover half of those losses uh but not anywhere near fully um I did want to mention to the the committee that uh you know as part of the CARES Act there there is a an allocation for each state's governor to distribute emergency aid across as I understand a pre-k through post-secondary and that uh and Vermont is eligible for about four and a half uh million on that and you know we have put in our request to the administration that we would really appreciate being considered for that uh you know higher education uh is is critical to the future of the state of Vermont but you know uh we don't receive the funding level that that other other levels of education do uh and I I think I saw that in in Vermont that the the portion of the CARES package for elementary and secondary was going to be bringing in 30 million plus for the state of Vermont uh so you know we we we have put in our request and would appreciate support for a significant sum of that money to help us cover our losses uh you know I also and maybe you can clarify for this for me at some point but you know there also was like like over a billion dollars coming to the state of Vermont uh in the CARES Act and my understanding is that money uh would really not be available for uh for post-secondary education I I don't know if I've really had verification of that or not and maybe maybe Wendy or Susan knows different but uh if if there was flexibility there that would be very helpful so uh you know the the loss in this fiscal current fiscal year is substantial uh which as worrying if not more so is what's going to happen in the future and the future is uh very uncertain you know where should we be planning to uh be open in the fall uh with our residential facilities uh if we weren't uh that is a total game changer and you know I mean I really I honestly have a hard time getting my mind around that but you know if we were looking at a you know 15 to 30 percent enrollment decline depending on which institution you are and that gets back to a little bit of a different situation we have and and and you know prognostications and so forth but uh you know one potential advantage that you know in in a really topsy turvy world is that you know the majority of our students are Vermonters and there's some indication that that you know our colleges are getting more interest from Vermonters to stay at home and roughly 50 percent of our high school graduates that are going on to college are currently going out of state and if that may be some some small uh you know I don't know where it is you know assistance to us in terms of our enrollment we worry about uh you know their ability to afford to go with the job losses and we also worry about our out of state enrollment whether the reverses is likely to happen where students are going to make the decision to stay closer to home look for the more affordable option uh and uh you know I I think my own guess is that that even though it's impressive that the amount of remote learning that was stood up pretty fast I think a lot of students are not looking forward to that experience going forward that's not why they go to a northern Vermont University or a or a I don't know what a St. Michael's it doesn't matter whether you're public or private where these are high touch institutions with a wide range of activities and athletics that that's that's that's very different than southern New Hampshire University so you know looking forward is is a cloudy picture but not one that we're we're wearing rose colored glasses with so the committee we are currently you know going through all kinds of analysis about you know what we should do and what we could how can we cover our losses what are we projecting uh you know I mean most of our costs are are our personnel related uh and you know we you know just in the chancellor's office just so you know I mean there's they're mainly across the system right now it's it started with uh with you know freeze on hiring freeze on travel ratchet back to your expenditures uh don't hire anybody new uh but also we're getting to the point where we're looking at well okay you know are there ways that we are a either having people that are on payroll that uh are not not able to do to either work remotely or that are or have jobs that are so student facing and summer summer facing that they they're they're not able to to do the job they were assigned to do uh and uh you know how do we handle that uh and you know we don't have an answer there but I expect I expect we're we're going to have to take some personal act personnel actions in the in the coming weeks and one thing that's uh a little different than uh and I I don't know whether I'm sure the independent colleges have something that's uh you know they may have similar kinds of things and they may not but you know we have a lot of union contracts and uh they generally have 45 or 60 day lead times on you know once you notice somebody uh that you know you gotta you have you're still paying them for 45 to 60 days which is a good thing in this climate but it adds to our inflexibility to deal quickly with uh the uh the revenue situation we have in the chancellor's office you know at any given time and we're we're tiny but just you know we we generally have uh you know in the in the ball of ballpark of 36 to 38 39 people at any given time uh we have uh eliminated four positions where there were people that were in them that are now in their their lead time but uh those are positions we we are at least for the foreseeable future don't anticipate bringing back uh we have not filled vacancies uh and you know I just need you to know it's it's it's not going to be it's not going to be something that we enjoy doing and you know uh again uh going back just for a second and then i'll stop and answer questions but uh you know we are a single corporation with four independently accredited not independent but separately accredited institutions community college of vermont castleton university northern vermont university and vermont technical college and uh you know as opposed to an independent college if you were to do a reconfiguration let's say maybe you thought you don't you don't you you thought we you might not need that many institutions uh the costs the allocable capital debt the retiree health costs the payouts uh the costs to maintain a campus don't go away they get shuttered down cascaded onto the remaining smaller corporation so you know uh where i'm going with that is you know we're looking at all alternatives not sure what the structure is but we need to be able to give certainty uh to our students families employees sometime in the in the coming week so that they can have confidence about what the future is going to be and uh you know our presidents and uh the chancellor's office and our board of trustees uh is you know uh absolutely committed to being able to take the steps that are going to be necessary for us to be able to sustain our mission into the future and uh you know and that is to to provide accessible affordable relevant education and training for modders and that's what we're going to do and if we have to make difficult decisions we will do it but when when we do we will have confidence in what the future will be and uh i know that the state of vermont is under a lot of pressure i mean you know just you know i don't i don't read the the revenue forecast as regularly as you do but i read them enough to know it's it's it's it's i don't know daunting is probably not a big enough word for it uh and but that's the world we're all living in right now is daunting uh and uh and complex uh and wanting to do the very best by our institutions our faculty staff and students the state appropriation uh is absolutely critical to our future and you know uh i i hope that uh you know as you you know try to figure out what solutions you know might work for the state uh that you know we can protect our state appropriation you know maybe we can't anticipate significant increases but you know a loss of that appropriation or or a substantial reduction in that appropriation would significantly add to the challenges we have to configure ourselves to uh to meet the future because just even if we did get smaller we still have a lot of carrying costs that are that are are going to continue for for a very long time whether we're you know so if you're losing revenue but you have ongoing costs whether you're operating or not uh that's that's difficult uh and and and uh can be could be very damaging so i'm just making a plea that a if we can get assistance from the state for the the governor's emergency funds that would be critical and if we could maintain our state appropriation that would be critical and with that madam chair and others i'd be happy to try to answer questions um great i have a couple first of all you said in the fiscal year you're seeing a potential 10 million dollar uh deficit yes uh what is your fiscal year uh june 30 so july 1 same as the state okay so it's 10 million for for this one it's one that's ending very soon yeah yeah okay and from one of you i think our committee would appreciate uh if someone could send the care of the cares act bullet points that affect higher ed would be helpful for us and i think you you i've got i've got a really good summary of that kate i'll send it to you and you and i'll send it to abry too so you can put it up yeah send it send it to abry would be great okay yeah you can post it and to me it'd be great as well um and i think that you you predicted a question that folks might have asked related to uh are you considering other options to reduce your expenses one being the potential closure of of campuses well you know i i don't want to beat around the bush too much but we're we're looking at at all options and and uh you know uh getting smaller in some fashion is is probably uh you know is is is going to be mandatory how we do it i don't know yet but you know i mean i think you know that uh last summer and fall uh we were going through a process of the state college system to identify uh the very serious headwinds that were were facing a higher education around the country particularly uh in rural areas that had some demographic issues and you know uh we identified those as you know the demographics the pricing pressure from state uh low state funding and uh discounts by other colleges trying to compete for a smaller population uh you know students wondering and and families wondering about whether it was the right investment for them changes in technology and competition from uh you know big online and and and folks who deliver things cheaper that are very very well funded and not the same thing at all but for many or many students they it works pretty well especially students that may have families and challenges so families and other obligations work obligations and so forth and uh you know sizable percentages the college students these days are our adult students so uh you know we already had some very serious uh headwinds that we were trying to uh to deal with we and our presidents uh in the middle of developing uh action plans to try to offset those those headwinds but you know i have to say that the COVID-19 has not just accelerated the need for action but it's intensified uh you know those challenges i don't know if it's going to change the birth rate but it's it's certainly uh you know changing the calculation that families are making about can they afford to do this do do they want to do it are they getting what they paid for and uh you know what the competitive landscape is going to look like and i guess the competitive landscapes could be less i mean as i see around the country uh you know there are and by the way we're really no different i mean red this is a daily publication today studying okay you know the furloughs and laos they're coming next and they listed a number of you know universities and colleges around the country that we're moving to that stage now uh and it's not that any of them want to do it they don't want to do it you know but you know they need to be be taken the action to ensure that their their entity uh can can survive to be able to provide the important education and training opportunities for the future we have a couple of questions on kathleen james and then larry cupley thanks um probably more a question for um for kate but just uh following along on jeb's um you know request about the state appropriation for the vermont state colleges system the letter that the education committee submitted to the appropriations committee seems like another lifetime ago will we be updating those letters or resubmitting to the house of probes here in the new world that's my only question thanks yeah that that whatever work the committee was the appropriation committee was doing four weeks ago um it's totally off that's a complete it's almost like they're starting from scratch so um larry cupley yeah jeb um i want to reference vermont technical college um in relation to the layoff that we've just had at the general electric plant here in rutherland have you had any conversations um with the with the college um regarding that i have not but would happy to be do do so in fact i'll be uh meeting the same way we're meeting here with with president uh molten shortly today so okay thank you uh and what you know give me a little hint there as to what you're you're what what what the end of your thinking of is i mean i know they've had 500 layoffs uh you you you're on mute there we are we good yep yeah and that that that was my concern i know that there's there's programming being done and programs afforded to people from general electric by vermont technical college and i'm just wondering um if you know if that those programs obviously are going to be interrupted and i'm not sure what the if there's monetary issues there um that would also affect your your budgeting but i uh i do know that general electric has been utilizing vermont technical college as a as a learning institution for their employees and i'm sure that that has stopped at this point right we do have roughly 470 people who have been laid off um and you know it's certainly going to affect our community as well they're they're a big employer i mean there are 1500 people down there that um that we're really concerned about so i just didn't know had you talk with president malton about that so if you know i'd like to hear a little more about it if it comes up okay thank you all right well we're you know i i can't believe how fast these days are going by you know it's like you start very early and then it's you know you're exhausted at the end of the day and uh you know what we're spending time and trying to say okay we know we're critical for the state of vermont we know that and we know if vermonters depend on us uh and we know we have you know loyal faculty and staff uh but we know in the end you know we have to be able to you know meet our our obligations including you know compensation and uh uh that's gotta drive what we can do and you know we we are looking at uh how we can cooperate with each other uh you know what are the most important programs that we need to protect uh and certainly the the uh you know the employer partnerships that that vermont tech and community college vermont and the rest of the folks for institutions are one of those things that we we need to protect in one form or another so if i uh wendy so i just wanted to bring one thing up and and i think jeb is is probably aware of this and i think susan is too but one of the things that the care act the cares act contains is a maintenance of effort provision for both k through 12 and for higher ed um in terms of state appropriation so essentially what it's saying is if states take money from the cares act that they're required to um to keep a the same appropriation on a basis of a a three-year average there is a piece of that where you can apply for a waiver so there is a loophole to it but i think jeb's point about trying even in these very difficult times to maintain state appropriation is so critical for uvm and the state colleges i mean you know a ten million dollar loss for the state colleges um before the fiscal year we're looking at something bigger than that you know if we if we lose state appropriation that's that's really tough so i'm i'm happy that we have that maintenance of effort provision but just want to try to maintain that too thanks so if what i'm hearing so far is from the independent colleges you're asking for you're you're seeking something related to immunity for the independent colleges in the face of of housing people during the the covid 19 response from everybody you're hoping that the governor will consider using the emergency funds at his discretionary funds to address our colleges and from the um state and colleges and the university uh maintaining the appropriation is that have i have i hit where our role is representative web i would i would say uh on the immunity issue we wouldn't mind being part of that as well um you know we we have uh we have beds right now that are that are set up at the spartan arena castleton spartan arena we are glad to do it but uh you know the the the state was in a hurry a big hurry and you know basically uh in normal times we would have made sure we had more protections in the lease uh in case something goes wrong now you might say and i did say well there's not as much that could go wrong in a hockey rink as there are when people start coming into dorms and things like that but uh you know it the immunity uh for for for colleges and universities that are having to uh you know house different uh surge over flows and surges would be helpful for everybody i think okay we're we're in the same boat with patrick but i want to give a shout out and thanks to susan because when she wrote all that she included us so i just want to say that also the cooperation between everybody has has been really wonderful so thank you susan for for working on that and susan you've sent that uh request for an executive order to us is that correct going to okay and um jim we great if you could take a look at that and see if that's something that that we can do or if it belongs to a different committee i'm not sure um other questions i really appreciate hearing from you um what we are clearly in a time where it's very hard to predict what's going to be happening in september yeah it is i mean i somebody who's been around for a long time just taking off my higher ed hat i'm sure like the rest of you i'm very concerned about the uh uh you know the the future decades as a result of this this crisis the economic you know the health is awful and i you know that i you probably already did this before i was on but uh you know the loss of of friends right as i say this right now i i should things can change every day but the last i checked was probably a week ago i'm not aware of any of our employees uh or students that uh have been uh you know identified as coven positive but you know we certainly have a lot of people who have been uh impacted in their families and uh the uh associate dean of student life or that's a roughly what her title is has been a longtime employee from a technical college his father was bernie jescuitz and uh you know i mean there are those stories of people that we know that have been impacted uh and that's a terrible loss but the economic impact wow you know and i mean i i think uh i'm not art wolf and i'm not uh you know tom cravet and or jeff car but this is going to take a quite a while and there'll be new new folks that come along but uh you know i mean i don't think higher education is immune from that and i didn't hear susan's testimony so i'm not going to speculate about vermont but you know across this country uh there there will be fewer uh post-secondary institutions well we you were treasurer when we had uh the great recession 2009 i i believe and that was almost easy compared to this i mean that was more human cause this is something different now i was pretty scared at that point too but but it was it wasn't this it wasn't as long lasting it took a long time to recover and you know i was uh secretary of administration when iran had but that was horrible but it was a short duration crisis event of of rescue and recovery as opposed to this continual coming and coming and coming and then it's the receipt and it's everywhere and you can't even see it you know it's like but it's uh you know it's this is a whole different kettle of fish well let us all um also recognize the opportunity that is in here as well absolutely it's not has revealed itself quite yet to me uh but i think that there is opportunity for us to be rethinking a bunch of things we're certainly looking at that with with pre-k 12 as well right and thank you for that representable very important and we certainly are trying to do that okay i don't see any other questions at this point um thank you so much for for joining us today we appreciate it hearing from you and everybody else has a question okay thank you thanks for having us yes thank you very much please silver on thank you guys too thanks for your work okay thank you