 Welcome everybody. I am Anne Pasternak. I'm the new Shelby White-Leon Levy director of the Brooklyn Museum Let's take a poll for a second. When do I stop saying I'm the new director? It's been one year. Is it two years votes for two years? One year. Oh, that's so unkind. How about five years? Well, I'm really excited that you're all here with us to celebrate two exceptional shows by three exceptional artists Of course Marilyn Minter's retrospective and Jeremy Deller's project is collaboration with Iggy Pop So right now we're gonna hear and momentarily we're gonna hear from Jeremy and Iggy and I just wanted to share with you a little bit of background about this project when Jeremy told me before I arrived at the museum. He had a great idea. I didn't even know the idea. I just said, let's do it. I Swear to God. I'm not supposed to tell anybody that but it is true Other artists in the room do not listen to that. I Had the pleasure of working with Jeremy when I was the director of creative time on a project called It Is What It Is conversations about Iraq. Some of you may have known of that project You may have seen the installation at the new museum But it is basically an RV that traveled around the country with a US soldier who had done three tours in Iraq Jeremy and an Iraqi soldier who had served in the Iraqi military and at a time of war talking about talking about The people that we were at war with You also probably know or many of you probably know about Jeremy's legendary project the Battle of Orgrieve Which changed my view of what art could be and what an artist could do and Perhaps you read this summer about the beautiful haunting performative memorial that Jeremy orchestrated to honor the lives of the British who served in World War one as it made International headlines if you know Jeremy's work You know why I make it a point just to say yes to him and make it a point to see him whenever I can So at time about 14 months ago, Jeremy shared with me a dream He told me that Iggy Pop was a huge influence in his life Not only because he's an icon for punk and rock music But he's given us all countless moments of joy and profound inspiration Well, he has also been an icon for liberating the idea of male sexuality and identity into a more fluid Identity and courageous bold direct ways so With Jeremy's dream in mind last December I met with Iggy and in March Iggy bravely posed for 22 artists who gathered at the New York Academy of Art and Iggy was the unannounced model The artists ranged in ages from 18 to 80 And their drawings are accompanied by sculptures from the permanent collection of the Brooklyn Museum that were selected by Jeremy To take a look at cultures from around the globe over millennia and how they approach the idea of masculinity. I Want to recognize and ask the artists who are with us who participated in the life study class to please stand so we can applaud you On behalf of the museum and Iggy and Jeremy. We're really grateful for your participation in this project Now Iggy needs no introduction He is a singer a songwriter an actor who began performing in the 1960s and in 1967 he formed the legendary band the Stooges, which was yeah Which was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame just six years ago And it's significantly influenced the trajectory of music as we know it today Iggy's concerts are also legendary. They are so high energy So intensely strenuous. He defines giving it one's all in March Iggy marked the release of his 17th album post pop depression to critical acclaim And he has taken a break from his world tour to be with us today I also want to recognize in the audience Jim Jermusch who has just released his new documentary on Iggy congratulations Sorry to call you out couldn't resist. I Also want to thank a few friends for helping to make this project a reality There was generous support for the exhibition by our friends Mike Wilkins and Sheila Dugan the fund Shane acroyd Phil share Phil errands and Shelley Fox errands Kathleen and Harry L L sesser Christina Eureka's bokeh bow Gavin Brown's enterprise and Charlotte fang Ford. Thank you very much to our donors for joining us on this journey I hope that you'll all check out the book that accompanies this exhibition that's published by Henry publishing and I also want to thank our awesome staff at the Brooklyn Museum that pulled off this project and record speed I want to recognize Alicia Boone and my public programming team. Alicia. Where did you go? I? Want to thank Emily anus and exhibitions and most of all the projects curator who dove in with me on this This wild ride our director of exhibitions Sharon Matt Atkins Sharon. Thank you very much Now I'm ready to begin and I just want to say that this conversation tonight is going to be moderated by a dear friend My friend Tom Healy and if any of you have seen our new Brooklyn talk series over recent months Then you already know Tom because he's not only a great poet. He's a really surprising unexpected Brilliant moderator and when he looks at the world whether it's through his writing or through these interviews He too is seeing very deeply So welcome to the stage Tom Healy Iggy Pop and Jeremy Deller Hey Welcome Hey, Jeremy. Hey Iggy thanks for being here So there's an amazing scene that funny scene in CryBerry B where you're sitting in a kind of giant bucket And beef cake you caught me in my birthday suit buck naked that was in a Book of stills from the 50s and John Waters collection a bunch of beefier guy than me doing that So here you are though caught but oh in my birthday suit again, they see well, I think everyone Needs to feel comfortable at least once in their birthday suit before they Check out So It's my time So Jeremy talk about this because you you asked Iggy about this easily a decade ago, and he said It was about ten years ago I approached him through someone and I the idea was explained and you were intrigued, but you weren't quite Totally convinced and I think you came round to the idea because I approached Iggy ten years later And then it was like yes, I'll do it very quickly. He agreed So what are the interviews when you said you changed your mind you said something really profound to me that You some metaphor of having weight, you know, I didn't have the weight yet. That's what I felt well look, I use I Use my body as a lot of people do their work in public As a kind of object of commerce Frankly when I only go out and do a gig Somebody has to pay for the presence and that's a certain gig When you're still When you're still pushing a hype like that you you lack You lack cultural weight Until you get to the end of that story where everybody knows you really don't have to anymore Except for an interior reason. I wasn't there in 2006. I was It was just starting to rain good things on me, but it hadn't taken its course so there was that and there was also I was in the middle of Finishing the job with my original group the students is that I had failed To complete in the 60s and 70s and I picked that up later in life Largely through the instinct that I wasn't gonna respect myself and other people weren't gonna respect me Unless I finished the first job Before I went on and did what I'm now doing, which is I'm finishing the job on me So that wasn't done yet either we in that case It was helpful that I Kept at it and kept at it. Nothing would stop me Even You know when even when Ron passed away I went ahead and continued the group with with James the second Mock-to-guitarist and eventually it helped us in the real world to get the support of an institution like the Rockinroll Hall of Fame and it helped It helped put the group in a less sordid light for the general public And that's how that's important and also Every story needs an arc If you've already been sordid You don't want to continue Great and more sordid from these guys. You know, no, you need an arc So when you've been so bad, there's only one way to go. You've got to be good And you know the the Hall of Fame is a family institution one of my other considerations when That's what it is. So hi welcome to the family I'm in the family now. It's so worth. So are the Stooges and that's a good thing When it was Gavin Brown the gallerist who wrote me originally about Jeremy's idea And he also proposed That it would he sort of spun it as a gallerist will he said and then we'll give the we'll give the Drawings to the Smithsonian and I thought Am I George Washington quite yet? I Don't think I qualify, you know and but as I investigated a little He sent me a beautiful book that Jeremy collaborated on called Folk Archive Alan Lane is which year Alan Kane was his collaborator. It's a wonderful book that treats quirky English folk People and folk customs things like a small village that has a monkey's tea party once a year They said they set out they say, you know, they have her as monkey's tea party tonight, you know And he set out these little tables for the monkeys, you know, but he they did it with the right blend of Humor casualness and seriousness a great book. So I liked that respect I like that. But when I investigated a little farther, I realized they were gonna offer The drawings also to the Smithsonian and I thought well those bastards will probably turn me down, you know so another big part of it was When it came up again, I met am pastor knack. She she reached out when she was in Miami and This was somebody She's she's a pistol, you know She hasn't she had a good energy and she was definite about what she wanted to do And I thought well Brooklyn Yeah, I belong in Brooklyn, you know, so yeah, I Lived I lived in Bensonhurst for a year when I was very poor because I couldn't afford Manhattan anymore and I Used the B train. I lived on 86th Street near 20th Avenue in a Ground floor on the heated flat It was a great experience Did the I did the album zombie bird house. Yeah, yeah at that time That the phrase the zombie bird house was my way I was a little angry and And it was my way of describing how people live in Manhattan basically in these Everybody gets a little cage in a very large stack of dwellings and Do you do what you're told like a zombie? Keep going, you know, so So anyway, that's fine. They I said all right. Let's do it, you know, and also you know, I Jeremy keeps doing fine arts. I thought well, this is a good person to associate with right So yeah, what were you gonna say? Thank you So I have a hunch that I want to try out with you that one of the things you have said about working with The artists who are here and let's give another round of applause to all the artists in the show one of the things that you say in an interview is how this is an exchange that you're ready for and this the whole sense of opposing for other artists and What struck me is like Trying to think what that is and and it occurred to me that a real power of why this worked is not simply that here's the Body of a celebrity and but it's the balance between It's exchange because they have this rigor and discipline and work and you just talked about it about a job And you have the same approach to art making it's not All about spontaneity and imagination. It's also as as a drawing class of anything teaches about art. It's about Discipline and technique and rigor, which is your whole career shows that too and that kind of gets lost sometimes in a celebrity bubble, but that aspect of your personality and Your career show up. I think in this show I think that I Can tell you at least for me and I've been photographed many many many many times and as the Equipment gets more sophisticated. It feels more and more like an assault. There's somebody's It's there's something mean about it. I don't like and I avoid it more and more Somehow there's some guys It's a motor drive and I get this little clicker and he's and and it's incumbent on you to kind of stand up to that but in this situation Everybody was busy. They were as busy as I was because here's this Naked man in front of you and if you don't feel anything or if you can't draw at all or if you don't Okay, get down and do the work now because the dude's gonna leave Then you have nothing so there they were each each one of them You could feel was very in totally engaged with his or herself What I my biggest concern going in was geez Just like, you know, I wanted to make a good first impression That was that's really the is it's a human exchange So I was concerned with how will we meet each other before we start or or at first I thought maybe I'm supposed to walk in and I was like, okay, how's my walk? I'm on do I walk in with a big cape on and then fling it off or you know, how do I roll this? You know and and then it was it was Jeremy who suggested well, why don't Why don't we all just meet up? first Clothed in an adjacent room and that was wonderful. That was like It was like a nice day in the high school. I never went to you know That's what it was like and everybody was everybody was we were all just We're at a good time for about 15 minutes meeting each other and then it was like You know, and I think They felt hopefully like I wasn't some kind of dick And that's the way I felt about them too You know, so then everything could proceed I think Yeah, I think it was important. There's a sort of mutual respect between you and the Drawers, yeah, and it was just and as a kind of broke the ice I think Because I think there's probably a lot of expectation between Them and you and so it's just a relaxing thing And now if if I'm right as money is like a third of the people until they were told the night before that it's a pop when they Were told about a third didn't know who you were. Well people don't I'm not that big a deal Yes, but that's interesting as well I think that's good that you have people who are drawing you as for who you for your body and who you are not Not for any idea of you. So yeah, that was important, right What was the biggest surprise you use you've thought about this for a decade Jeremy and then here it is Well, the biggest surprise was that it happened I think and also that once it started the atmosphere was like being in an exam room or a library It was very studious quite intense. I felt and everyone was really working hard. It was silent as well There's no sound at all. It was really Four hours. Yeah, four hours. Well, but we had breaks obviously, right? It was just very silent very serious Yeah, and everyone took it seriously And could you talk about that time soon? Have you you haven't posed for that length of time before? Have you? I've done horrible photo sessions and music videos that were they get goes on and on. Oh my god. Yeah, they used to Much longer, but Not as focused or productive, right? Frankly, so one of the things I was really fascinated by because you're told to hold poses for lengths of time and such and The curators said well Iggy got these because he once he knew the amount of time He had a song in his head that matched that time you could know alright the pose gonna be up now Yeah, I was concerned It's I'm not the very I'm not the greatest person it's sitting still and I knew I was gonna have to sit still for 20 minutes nude seated, you know With a bunch of people, you know concentrating on No on what I was gonna be able to give them and I didn't want to be thinking Have thoughts going through my mind like I wonder if it's 2 minutes or if it's actually 17 minutes and I didn't want to what is the God There's a great the guy who does Spoken word records and he has one about time a guy that wakes up in the middle of the night. What's his name? Okay, and he's like what time is it? I don't know. Anyway, I didn't want to be thinking about that so I Know for instance The recorded version of I want to be your dog takes three minutes and 22 seconds or whatever So all I had to do is in my I could be sitting here like this You wouldn't hear it, but in my head it's like Hey, you just do the whole thing And you do the verses and the choruses and at the end I'd sing the guitar lead to myself You know, I know him by now, you know, and I would just sort of okay We got a three and a half minutes long and then a six minutes long and then and then I find they at one point. I said Is it time and then bomb the bell ray? Within a second he got a I wanted to see how close this so that was a good way I thought to get through it Without breaking concentration because I thought I owed them concentration for some reason I mean one thing I noticed in the drawings that Every person I've seen a lot of figure drawings before and they tend to concentrate on the bod But every artist gave me a face Yes, they all gave me a face. Yes bless you for that, you know, thank you So so we have a few images here So this is if that was me too damn lazy to go to my room between the tapes I saw just lay down here. You know, I'm dude now. What the hell? And and he liked it. So he said let's let's draw that. Yeah So who chooses the poses Jeremy, how does that he did? Well, Michael and I Class I knew I wanted a variety and we had to have a long pose that was seated really that's something that looked quite heroic I felt you know holding something like a sort of a mythological figure almost or warrior, right? But we needed a variety. I wanted to get lots of To begin with I wanted like four quick poses So I knew I had some drawings for the show Because everything else went wrong or you wanted to leave. I just thought at least we'll have something quickly So we had we had a lot of drawings quickly So we got like the song like doing songs quickly and like right almost like hit singles almost and then we had the long Sort of concerto or sonata or whatever, you know the long piece And that's what all the very detailed works came from, you know The seated ones and Iggy do you have to just let yourself go through all of it? Or do you feel like one of the now this pose is gonna suck this is not gonna work That wasn't my place. So what I tend to do before I do any Before I work with anybody. I Try to think very carefully about okay I'll go over here, but I won't go over there because that's their turf and there and also While I might while I might be busy Interfering with Jeremy. I might be blowing a responsibility my own. I've learned from experience. So no I just you know the seated pose. I mean that was that's tough because you know, I'm thinking. Well, you know Here's my penis just hanging Hanging over the side of a box, you know And you know, you know, there's you know, they Emphasizes your middle girth and the whole thing and oh my god, you know, but that's okay, you know, that's okay Yeah There's always I think it's more than okay. These drawings are beautiful and well, yeah There's always room for a surprise in my life. I don't know how that works, but uh, I Just get a lot of good ideas and input from others that I would not be able to get on my own steam I've read once where you actually said two important things you learned were From the Jagger that it was about performance. It was work make a performance you do performance and from Jim Morrison You have to have surprise for there to be I Say those are both the true and those are two two different traditions. I think James Brown Tina Turner Any good any good black church leader preacher that you see they They work it with the crowd the more I think about The best performance I ever thought saw of of Jim Morrison That was a kind of comedy there was a lot of comedy in that and Guy had a great sense of humor. He really did and then he was able to combine that with with Beautiful voice and a beautiful presence and the band the band was very fine, you know He wrote well as well. I thought he was a good writer. Some people didn't but I think he was very good But there was comedy in a guy, you know the first time I saw him it was It was a homecoming dance the University of Michigan in a field house. So it's You know the men of Michigan with their dates and the group came out they'd had a hit But they hadn't coalesced into a slick working band yet So they play the first riff and it sounds a little weedy and he's supposed to come on after about eight bars He doesn't come on he doesn't come on and when he does the song was soul kitchen and when he does come on instead of singing in his Sexy baritone. He's saying like this Made these gestures sort of like your cat when it's rolling on its back, you know and and he And he was dressed up dressed to the nines and ruffles and leatherette His he had his hair oiled like Hedy Lamar and Samson and Delilah. I mean he looked wow But he was obviously whacked, you know Whacked big pupils, but it was beautiful, you know and the guys the guys in the front got madder and madder Because they took this as an as an insult because he couldn't complete a number, right? So they tried another number And another number, you know, and also it wasn't at the time their sound It was smooth on the radio But as rock music it was revolutionary because most rock at the time was supposed to be more lashing and masculine This was not a sensitive stuff. So they The crowd started to approach the stage things were not going to be pretty in and it was a short show The second time I saw him so you were how old then I was That was a 19. I was 20. I just know I was either. I think I was 19 I think so and I just felt like I was trying to get a band together and figure out How to do something creative and After I left that show I just said there is no if they can do that. I have no more excuse You know, so it was like that, you know the second time I saw him it was in a Kobo arena large arena and they were slick and superb and Had their finger on the button Well, you know, I Remember the I remember the little folk mess better, you know, that's normal All right, let's look So you talked about the face I love this this image because it really looks hewn out of out of stone. Yeah, I Think I say Mount Rushmore in the book May I see where is Deidre? Where is she here? All right, right on Deidre You have been Posing for a long time the one image. I actually wanted to have with Gerald Montagna's but we can't use it for but you speak about that in a really powerful way about About what is it risk in a certain way and the coldness of that the kind of theft of That kind of sitting It was it struck me that there seems something really Harsh about it. Probably would have this one was tougher than the than the melanga Okay, although the Gerard was mentally tough This is tough because it was I think that it's a Richard Bernstein piece But I think the photo I think this is Bill King. I think so and it was I remember the shoot was like It's like a vogue shoot. They put you in a white room and it's a guy who's shot Hundreds of people with long necks and you know, whatever they have and and you're young and you've never been to New York City And so you you can see I'm kind of trying to I'm trying to stand up to this guy a little bit, you know with no clothes on But I thought it was important Somehow to me I Just thought it was important to I Knew I was going to perform for a living for a vocation And I thought so I thought part of that was to document What was at the root of it in other words no boots no saddle No hair gel whatever it is, you know So that was why I did it a couple of times and then left it off until This I want to bookends basically And so what happened so I put this Jerry talk a little bit about this for people who haven't seen the show yet There are a number of of works from the Brooklyn Museum Collection that are also in the show all male nudes and one of them is this Sheila self-portrait Well, I my mind looked like it's amazing. I mean, I always wanted the Exhibition to go to a museum that had an encyclopaedic collection I wanted it I always wanted the work to be seen in the context of world culture not just and as a gift you said as a gift Yeah, as a gift and it would reside in one of those great American museums that has an encyclopaedic collection Like Philadelphia or Detroit or wherever and the Smithsonian, but but also I was so I wanted it With this I wanted to do an exhibition about the male nude as well around from that collection And I thought it was important to show these drawings in a context Just to show they do exist in a context and they're part of our history and now these drawings are part of our history as well And also when you consider the roots of rock and roll music, it's not necessarily Western They're not necessarily Western it comes from other countries and I just felt it was interesting to look at male nudes that looked at religion that were Sacred and profane at the same times and that's again something that was very important to the genesis of rock and roll so I just wanted them to have a really good home in a really great museum and We had out of great objects in not just 20th century European white Having said that that is 20th century I apologize, but there is others as you know, so it just had a different It couldn't be in the museum of modern art had to be in somewhere that had a Breath to it, but also the kind of museum you'd go to as a child or as a young person And you'd be absolutely amazed by a Buddhist temple in one room some Egyptian sculptures a Renoir Monet or whatever and you'd go and you just time travel around the world and around time in the museum like this Like the Brooklyn Museum basically So Iggy could you and I were talking earlier about that so When you started drawing and painting yourself and you were in Berlin and you had some time Could you talk about that a little with that? Yeah, I went David Bowie took me to It's a wonderful little museum. I it's called the brook a and it was on clay L. A near the in the American sector on the very very small space Maybe the entire museum It's not really bigger than this full proscenium and Most of the works were not physically large works and it was Eric Heckel and Schmidt wrote love from the whole German expressionist Bunch and I don't know. It just I looked at it, you know, and I mean it didn't It it wasn't they didn't try it all to be figurative But you could just see from the color and the slash of the lines and everything It was like, yeah, this is what this feels like when I look at it Or this and that was that was wow for me and there was something a little bit like cartoons About it. There was a bit Dicks is in that museum as well actually draws a lot like a cartoon so it just Spoke to me and I I sort of paint like that kind of I mean, it's because I I can't Draw the way that I don't have the eye that these wonderful people have But I have feelings about the things I see or what's going on inside, you know, so I draw that way We have an Eric Heckel in the exhibition as well. Yes. I don't know if it's one of the slides It might be You don't have to go. It's fine, but I mean, I love that work as well He had a heckle had a painting in That's like an expressionist Maybe we don't have So I Love this one as well. Yes talk about this a bit because you're talking about cartoons Well, I can lead Kinley was doing didn't did some drawings, obviously, but then he was doing some little caricatures and At the end of the class he's gonna throw them in the bin I think or do something with them and I just said don't I want these these are great to have this I Love these but that's all doodles almost but I just thought it's big It's just another way of looking at a face and a body and a way of drawing and I think he does a animation And so that's why it has that sort of that feels with cartoony feel So when I first saw the works this week on the wall it was astonishing to me because They feel so three-dimensional and and they kind of move So could you talk about for because there's a beautiful book, but those reproductions are nothing like What is that what happens I Don't know and I think it's very hopeful from museums because it means you always will have to go to a museum to see something You can't just rely on the internet or books even you have to be in a room with a thing and walk around it Or get close to it and see it next to something else And it that's me it being in the presence of an artwork is there's no Replacement for that despite how clever we are with technology So tell me what went through the That's true if you see the If you see the Velasquez in the Prado, it's not the same procedure. Although it's you know, it's just not the same He's holding that same. Well, this this is one of This is an extraordinary. I love this. It's too ratio. Yeah What was that like holding Holding the staff staff. I mean it you know your thumb starts to You know, there are technical aspects to holding the staff, you know, I didn't know I understood I got it You know, I understood. Well, it could be a scepter. It could be a spear I thought of it mainly as some sort of a spear or then I thought well, maybe it's just a device to to Make visible some of the Infrastructure of the bod, you know Because that's part of that's yeah, that's what's supposed to be behind the figures So the musculature of the tendons of ligaments and organs So I didn't I was thought about it briefly, but you know, I mean I just I did as I was asked You know, but when they asked me to do that particularly, I thought oh I just did it, you know like you do. Yeah. Well, thank you It was it It was a what I did one of quite an open pose. I suppose you'd call it. So as you know, it's kind of full frontal pose There's you know, it's drawing is somewhere you might want to Kind of the best if you go back That's a great. There we go. I mean, obviously that's kind of the most open yes And I thought that was important to have that You know you needed the arm out so Can you go to the next picture actually that is it the Lenny Sinclair? No, go back. Oh back. Yeah This one no Go for that's it. Yes This I bought this photograph in a record shop in Detroit for $2.50 It was stuck on a piece of paper as a greetings card and it was signed on the back Lenny Sinclair about 10 years ago She's she's a great little artist amazing and then see this the tongue out and we were talking about satyrs and Wood sprites and all that stuff. And I just thought this is a kind of persona your stage persona was really in this photograph I was thinking about this thingy when you were saying every story has an art because there it is physically at the performance the Argo the body in the proud the ship, you know, there's surprise Gonna happen in this show. Well, I used to do that. I I like to watch and James Brown and also Joe Tex Who's very own song but James Brown used to do this thing where he he would Throw them like stand down Twirl and when you twirl around he'd have it coming back up with a little foot move I thought well, okay What how about if I I would dive head first? I try to figure out How what's the length of my own body plus my arms and I'd see if I could drive dive and catch this Mike Just before I was gonna hit the deck and that's the moment after then what I would do And I would then I would slither up the thing and I thought hey That's a stage move, you know Honestly, that's what I was doing. Yeah, you know you know Hey, you know actually you you write and talk so Beautifully about this whole range in in in your The experimental nature of a lot of the work you did I love when you said well, you know if you take a vacuum cleaner with your thumb I mean it makes the sound of you can make a sound of a whistling to the whistling Wearing blender with some water in it. You know got Niagara Falls and what surprised me I never imagined when I used those things. I was using them these making these sounds to enhance the very simple wah-wah guitar riffs that Ron and Scott were playing on bass and drums this very primal simple to do But don't bump a little funky for a white fellas and but I Wanted to do something besides seeing In a sort of a monotone manner as I did at that time and still kind of do So I thought well, what about this some beautiful sounds and I I Thought that when I did these things everyone would concentrate on the sounds but instead they were like that guy's played a vacuum cleaner That's you know, oh my god. This is this is an outrage They play a vacuum cleaner, but it wasn't you know, that's not a big deal. It was a beautiful sound Later, I I got rid of the vacuum cleaner and brought an air compressor when I got a little money That was much better, you know But but that was the idea the wearing blender was I had failed at Harry Partch had a Something called the cloud chamber Yeah, and I tried to build one of those and it with a broomstick handle and some spring water bottles And it crashed one day. You actually tried your own cloud Yeah, yeah, and I was hitting it with little the mallets. It was beautiful, but it was it was not sturdy So I thought what about if I just buy a wearing blender an oyster riser I think it was or so for 27 bucks or put a little water in it might get up it might send it did it sounded It was beautiful, you know to me. It was me. Yeah, Jeremy. Do you Agree with me that this this elemental thing of that experimental kind of the way of making a gesture another thing in in it is performative work is Related it feels like a twins with what the drawing class was I'd what drawing is Yes, it's very basic. It's sort of the bedrock of history in a painting is drawing Also, I think his performances are very I think closely related to a lot of early performance art and Body art as well. So there's an influence there So there's a lot of art going on in a sense But but definitely those performances and of course early rock and roll as we know it is the building blocks of Everything that's come since with anything with a guitar and you were sort of part of that You know the second wave of that in a sense. So that's very important as well So that you know the elemental and the drumming you're right about the drumming that Very funky drumming. Yeah, something is very important. So I was very yes I was interested in him and that role that he's played Musically, but also sort of physically And it was important for you with the artists who came that not only did they work with the figure But specifically did they had experience in life drawing club? Tell us about that what how we got the people how we found the students Participants well or that were what their backgrounds? I wanted a real mix of people I didn't want to just use one class from one college I wanted to use a group of people and because I knew then I'd get a Diverse group of people in sort of ages and backgrounds and so on and also how long they've been drawing for so I wanted to have a Group of people that reflected this this part of the world as well So that was important and that happened almost randomly because we were just looking at work and when you see everyone they turn up It's like wow, we've got people we didn't know how old these people were a lot of them or where they're from or anything So for me, it's very important. We had a group of Americans looking at an American another American a Documenting a fellow American. I felt it was really a it's a sort of way It's a piece about America in the 20th and 21st century and that sounds a very grand statement But it's it for me that was a very important thing that we had a group of Americans looking at one of their fellow Americans, right? and so all of your work has really Had an experience of community or family or large groups Was there some dynamic that changed over the time of the the artist's influence one another Did you feel something that happens? I don't know you'd have to ask them that but I think everyone's so Concentrated on their own work. That's how it seems very very There's a real like I said a real concentration But I think you have a group there must be a dynamic within the group and that helps everyone And I think everyone seemed to get on very well with each other We were very supportive so the atmosphere was a really great atmosphere. It wasn't tense at all We may be a little bit before but actually Everyone was very happy to be there and Iggy spoke to people in the breaks And I think you know did you peek at the drawings? Did you peek at their drawings between? I didn't peek. I just want to look at them. Yeah, sure And kind of wanted to I don't know. I just wanted to meet people, right? So it's just a natural thing. It's sort of hi Oh, you know like that. Yeah, like that, you know, I was interested. I mean Yes, I felt really good to be there. Yeah It was the thing went on. I just felt better and better and it was like I don't know what it I don't know what the load was that I got rid of but it took a load off my mind. It did of some sort That's something personal. I don't really get how that works So we are going to open up to some questions Here's a question right here and the mic is on Hi, my question is why Iggy pop? That's that's I can answer that question quite easily Because I felt there was a few bodies in America that have been so public in showing themselves to the American public I mean, there's obviously some people that do it for money and in sense they just Now on Instagram and so on just show their body off but someone who's used their body and it was willing for their body to be seen over a period of time and to change and also body that really embodied no pun intended the culture that it came from from Really embodied rock music and it's symbolic of it. So I felt it was a hugely important body in America Probably one of the most if not the most important body in America And I felt it had to be drawn and I felt the drawings could do it justice in the way that photographs can't and So it there was no Wasn't like I didn't have a list of people to draw to have drawn. It was just one person basically I wanted Thank you for coming tonight project So I wanted to know if you could talk a bit about your experience posing serenely nude as opposed to versus Your performances where you're always You know high-octane performances where you're skirting with the idea of nakedness and you know What what it felt like for you to to go from one extreme to another like must Yeah, well one when I'm working or playing a live then I'm a sort of a technician with feeling. There are both aspects going on and Lot goes into it There are a lot of considerations every moment and I'm Definitely putting it out I'm putting it out and I want it back But I'm I'm on In this situation There was none of that I Didn't think that approach was gonna work for me. I Was gonna have to try to I was gonna have to get these people to perform It was incumbent on I was gonna have to try to Inspire them or trick them or do whatever I had could do to make them interested enough To perform and this was something I Just kind of felt it. I didn't think about it and I had to put myself in their hands completely because Sure, everybody, you know There are reasons we don't all walk around with no clothes on all the time and yet There are societies where people do But not ours And that's that's something to think about right there So I just tried to drop I Just didn't think about myself in any way except that I asked for a spot to look at and then just tried to just sit still and I Was trying to make sure I didn't have a Sort of I Wanted to make sure there was some energy in my mind so that there would be some in my face and that that I used the Convention on my songs or I'm comfortable Going through my head. So there be some expression. So I was afraid otherwise it would be Because that happens to anyone sometimes you go slack in the wrongly fee in the back of a cab for two hours or whatever it is, you know So that was it and and I felt I don't know I felt cleansed of something when I left and And we all I don't know everybody had a big smile at the end of that session You know, it wasn't like he wasn't like that. It was just everybody. I think everybody had a good session That's what I thought It's about it Wasn't a gig So while the next person comes up with a question, I was asked question just before we got on stage. So alright It was essentially said this way you're three white dudes on stage and this is the year of yes for the museum a celebration of 10th anniversary of the Center for Feminist Art and a Look at women in arts. So how does this show? How is it part of that and Jeremy yeah Jeremy is the mastermind of this up just to be honest it was for me personally I It was never intended to be that but I can I think it's you know, it's a it's a exhibition, you know, it's an exhibition about a body It's about a body that's sort of in some ways Been under the amount of intense scrutiny that only usually women's bodies on it was quite interesting when we we had some Comments on social media when we did this and we released some photographs and some people saying that's great I was saying oh my god, what what's going on this body this guy? Why are you drawing him and in a way you sort of got an idea of what it is for a woman to be examined and sort Be judged on a body of a certain age in a certain way, but it was really I think I would I would say really it's more it's about sort of it's a show about a body And about the sexuality of that body as well and how it's been viewed through time So I can't exactly answer your question but I We saw I suppose there's a sort of There's another element of kind of an asexual element about it as well about the body about where it's used I partly had an answer which I think is Question more than answer as well, but I I think there's a really brilliant pairing of this show with Marilyn Minters terrific Exhibition that's opened just down the hall from this and Marlon will there'll be a number of programs with her. She's an extraordinary artist. I hope she's here, but part of what seems to happen is that is that there is a conversation of What what Marilyn does so brilliantly is take control of a number of the tropes and abuses and controls that The male gaze or even the commercialization of the women's body from the male gaze has done to it and made extraordinary art from it and The art made for you is actually this vulnerability about that male control and that was the word I would have used and I think There's someone named Francis. It's what's her last name. We wrote the wonderful. She's probably here She wrote a very yes. Yes, it was a way for Zellie Anyway, yeah, is that you hey, no She wrote up she wrote up a very perceptive and interesting history of life drawing in the middle of the booklet for this so for this thing it's terrific and You know, I learned that you know, this this started out in the Renaissance as a kind of a your your task was to Was to illustrate Beautifully the what they thought was the important history of mankind Which was always you know the religion and the great heroes and blah blah blah they had to be beautiful and had to be Superb and this it was always men That were the objects you could not do it never never a woman for a whole lot of reasons and at first because women were considered in those inferior specimens right because they were fleshy and you know, whatever and Then that somehow things switched Much later things switched over and the idea in France of the boheme and You know, she's my model, but also my lover and then the male gaze of course in the whole fashion industry it today Comes from that and then she sort of put and with this exhibition in steps Iggy Pop to this You know, so where does that come in and? you know, I Knew that at 69 years old. I was not going to be This was not going to work if I tried to make myself the object of the male gaze I did that pretty well when I was 29 years old But that's this is different. I think you're pretty hot. Well, thank you So so yeah, I think the chick has always been in the vulnerable position But you know, it's kind of fun guys. You should try it Hi, hi, Iggy. Hi. Hi. So I'm a represent. It's not a really question But I'm a represent here for representative Japanese one to ask you to get to To come to Japan to have sure as a part of post-op the production So I collected a thousand of petition from Japanese fun. So may I pass you? This is a year she has a bunch of signatures on Bless you All right, thank you Bless you Hey, Iggy. Hey, man First of all, I just want to say thanks for all the music because man, you made my life so much better And I really can never thank you enough for it I've done the live model thing before were you cold You you what you do model? I don't I did it 20 years ago You used to be a model and I was just I did it like twice and I was really cold That's what I remember. So I don't remember. I was just asking were you cold during your Cold freezing cold. Yeah. It was a little cold in there. Yeah They gave me a they did try to give me a break. I remember they talked about that due to my you know Well, they gave me a break. It wasn't that bad Wasn't that bad? Yeah, I Know you got the you got the short end of the stick Yeah, well we got the lung into the stick so thank you Jeremy It was really really cold in there. So it gives you a sense of how impressive Iggy is So I wanted to answer Tom's question for a second because all of their answers were great about how this fits into a year of feminism As you know at the Brooklyn Museum We're celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Elizabeth a Sackler Center for feminist art for an entire year We're devoting the museum to the lens of feminism But it's not a fan feminism of of my generation or my mother's generation or my grandmother's generation It's a feminism for the future that takes a look at gender equity Inclusion and equity is at large. It's a civil rights movement. And so Everybody fits into this movement. Everybody fits into feminism and awesome So I want you to know that Marilyn Minter is doing a marathon of interviews here next week We hope to see you back again if you haven't seen the Jeremy Deller Iggy pop life-class exhibition It's up on the fifth floor. I urge you to see it. It's fantastic and also Marilyn Minter show And I thank you all for joining us tonight and thank you Jeremy for your brilliant vision Thank you Iggy for all the inspiration and Tom