 Welcome everybody back to Segal Talks here at the Martinie Segal Theater Center at the Graduate Center CUNY of the City University of New York in Manhattan in New York and my name is Frank Henschka and I'm the Director of the Center and since 10 weeks we are hosting talks talking to artists, colleagues from around the world, from around the globe to see how they experience the time of Corona, what it means for us, how they create meaning or thoughts about theater and performance that is our field and we live in times that are almost unimaginable. It's a reality outside, seems to be stranger than fiction. There are uncertainties inside and now things since last week turned, especially in the United States, the atmosphere is different, priorities have changed and the mode of George Floyd was the match, you know, the gasoline that was out there with the COVID virus, the confinement was the exceptional high unemployment, almost a quarter, if not more, people out of work and it's shocking and I would like to share a statement from the public theater as very much also our own and Oscar Eustis also was here on the show and I would like to say that the murders of George Floyd, Amoudd Arbery, Tony McDade and Breonna Taylor have demonstrated in horrific fashion that racism upon which our country was built, we mourn the loss of these black women and men and we are grieved and outraged by their death. Theater is for, by and of the people, yet it has taken us far too long to proclaim the simple truth, black life matters, we must stand in solidarity with black artists, black staff members in the black community and actually all communities of color. We must do much more to fight the racism that infects every institution in the country and us at City University included, we must recognize that this is a time of change, that we have to be part of the change we want to see and we need to live up to our own ideals. As a note I've always already said it yesterday but we got an Instagram from a New York actor Ilan Barra who said after he got our Segal Talk announcement, who cares about this right now people are dying, be part of the conversation about justice and Ilan of course is right and it's true but it's also wrong. I think we do need to care what is happening in the world. We have listened to our friends and colleagues, artists from Hong Kong, very complicated situation just last week we talked to them, Haiti, Brazil, Lebanon, South Africa, Egypt, the shooting of demonstrators in Chile just last December, the police beatings of innocents, people in Romania and their struggle is also our struggle especially also for the artists but for everyone and I think America should turn away from isolation, from nationalism and it is part of the problem we are experiencing. It is not right to think that what happens here counts more actually because we do listen to our colleagues everywhere in Brazil and Egypt and Hungary we have reasons to be even more outraged at the murder of George Floyd, there is universal injustice, America is no exception and America really really should be an exception. For centuries the black community has suffered much more than others in these countries and it's happening now again, not only coronavirus kills, so does the racial politics in the US, social and economic inequities, poor access to healthcare, discrimination in healthcare settings, greater reliance on public transportation and much higher numbers in healthcare and in the service industries and differences in employment, they are all factors leading to the much, much greater burden on the black community and all people of color in this COVID-19 crisis. Our president refuses to wear a mask like everybody else, he suggests we should inject ourselves with disinfectant, he is hiding in a white house in a bunker when it seems to get dangerous and he suggests that the US military here to protect us, as he is here to protect us, he says US military should shoot at American people, protesters who want to see change and he's holding up a Bible after the police clears away for him to get to a church, it's unacceptable, this needs to change, it has to change and it will change and we all, as in the field of theater performance, we have to look hard what role theater and the arts can play and should play in the real way, the symbolic way, the imaginary and we need to see how artists in other countries who for decades have dealing with civil uprising, authoritarian regimes, censorship and police killings in Egypt, Lebanon, Chile, Cuba, Brazil. It is important to find out what we can learn from South Africa from artists like Basil Jones and the theater he created with others in the years of apartheid and how that contributed to a change and of course we do have a responsibility here and we will have talks now with, planning with Nigel Smith and James Strucks, Woody King Jr, Tamila Woodard, many, many others coming up to also look a little bit more closer at New York City normally, it's one day out of the fight but we will of course react to this, also a significant French philosopher Jean-Luc Nancy will join us next week and talk about the significance and meaning of art, we are also looking forward to that. So as I said, we have to know what role art is playing, has been playing, what is right, what is wrong, what has been missing for a long time and how is the struggle for our communities of color, the communities who are not at the very, very center on the light of the Broadway theaters or sometimes also of the experimental or downtown theater with us is a great worker in the field and the vineyard of theater and performance. Someone who over decades has made a great, great contribution with the Mayi theater company. He has supported the Asian-American theater company, produced plays, worked plays, created plays, also directed. Actually, I just learned, has also been an early, early supporter of how round is the first time that he's on himself. Ralph Pena is with us. So Ralph, thank you for coming and I apologize that it's a longer statement in the very beginning. No, I think it's important to say and you know, you're sort of asking what theater has to do with what's currently happening and I come from a background of protest theater during the Marcos regime in the Philippines and I've experienced these kinds of upheavals in my life a few times and every time this existential question comes up like what is the role of theater in protests, right, or in civic action and inciting community engagement and every time I go back to my experience in the Philippines of actually talking to communities and working within communities and getting the inspiration for creating the work from the communities. Tell us a bit about that time. What happened? What did you do? Well, we put up a we put up here was it. This was 1982. We put up a street theater company that used Vaudeville as a form for political protest and we used headlines of the day to create a short place that we could put up in the middle of the street in five minutes. They're called lightning plays and then dispersed so we would get arrested by the police and that went on for several years until you know at one rally I believe for then Corazon Aquino who was not who was just beginning to on her political journey and Marcos was still president. We actually performed to a crowd of approaching one million people at the National Park. I've never I've never experienced that before. How did that happen? A million people tell us a bit about this. Aquino Benigno Aquino was just shot and assassinated in 1983. He was a community leader? No, he was the opposite. He was the opposition to Marcos. Right. And he had he was in the United States in exile, but he decided to come home and on the plane home, he was met by soldiers and then shot on the tarmac of the Manila airport and that that created a huge national out crying much like what we're seeing now of the people saying I've had enough. You can't do this. And so that propelled his widow into a political run for president and Marcos who had already been in power for more than a decade under martial law or with imposing martial law was ousted, literally booted out of the palace. And that's when we found out Imelda and her shoes and jewelries and all that. But it was people power they called it that actually changed the system. And I saw firsthand how theater and the culture sector was a participant in building that momentum. And and so when I whenever I'm caught up run up against these kinds of events in history, I always go back to that like how do we how do we participate in voicing the people's demands? Right? What are they asking for? What are we all asking for? And and participate that way? So it doesn't it feels a lot more organic. And also it's an it's it's it's action. And you know, as opposed to the traditional expository exposition of of I think Western theater, this is we go to the streets and we do it. And that has served me well. I think over the years and in running my theater company. The question is always. Why do we make theater? For whom we make theater? And what kind of theater do we make? So knowing those three things sort of under, you know, always guides how we program. And now here we are again at another crossroads. And to me, this feels very much like the first time we founded my E in 1989. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't really have any mentors. We just thought, Oh, let's put up a theater company. Because how difficult can that be? And now 30 years later, we're still challenged by many things. But that's, that's, I always go back to that experience in the Philippines. So tell us a bit. You had a short lightning place for five minutes, you improvised a scene, and then you left went to another part. No, we just dispersed. We just. Oh, excuse me one second. Excuse me. Yes, I think Ralph did say he would get a delivery he has been waiting for, for a long time, and he had to take it. So as you see this truly is a is a live show. And I think his experience reminds us like many artists who talk about these times. Sorry about that. Can you hear me? Yes, of course, that these times of, of, of complication of crisis, of anger of protests, that these are also times of change. And there is something in here that perhaps will also help us to learn to get to a better place. So those lightning, those lightning rallies. One, an example of this was we decided to hold a rally at the very start of the Miss International Beauty pageant that Imelda was hosting. And so we had our costumes underneath our street clothes. And oh my. Yes. See, this is what COVID does to us, you know, we also have to wait for days for for one moment for one delivery. And and and we cannot miss it, not even for a whole round interview. And it is of importance. And it also shows that what we talk about here is connected to life, our daily life, the way we live, and it's not separate. Yes, we all pretend it is and it is not. No, and I don't have a dormant. So I do that. But yeah, so we had, you know, the Miss International pageant that Imelda hosted, we had our costume, which was drag actually, underneath our regular clothes. And then just before the beginning of the it was being telecast live around the world, we went in front of the venue and took out our costumes and we played Miss Imperialism, Miss Fascism, Miss bureaucrat capitalism, all that stuff. And we held a mini beauty contest in front of that event. And immediately we were surrounded by a phalanx of armed security. And luckily the international press was there and they all came out of the venue and trained their cameras on us. So the military couldn't touch us. And we sort of went outside this complex to get out into the main street and then ran into a mall and dispersed. So nobody could track us. But those were the kinds of tactics that we use to make art when we were not allowed to to make it. So theater always finds a way I guess to express itself. And I find that it is most creative when it's faced with adversity. And that's I think what we're experiencing right now. So to me, it feels like this moment feels like when I first started theater, I didn't know what I was going to do. But I knew I had to do something. And so in the last couple of months, that's what we've been trying to figure out, what are we going to do? In the next few months, if say, we're not able to get back inside the theater for a year, a year and a half, two years, what's going to happen? And I know it's my doing. Yeah, how's my theater doing? We're strut, well, we're struggling like everyone else. But as you know, New York theater is stratified. We're not all working in the same stratosphere or whatever these hierarchies, it's it's hierarchical. So the responses are all different from the big theater companies to the small theater companies, they're all trying to figure out what we're going to do in the near term and in the long term. What's consistent in among everyone is that we're all sort of groping in the dark. We don't know what what this new form might take. Some people are doing digital are thinking of digital and some people are thinking a hybrid of live performance and digital. Some people are thinking scaling down to parking lots to parks for four people, three people, 10 people. And some people are thinking, giving people headsets and observing a play from across the street or drive in movie houses of having cars surround a former circle and surround a performer in the middle, everybody is trying to figure out ways and including including reducing theater occupancy by 70% up to 70% and only allowing 30% of their normal capacity inside the theater. But every all of these things, we are challenges, you know, how do you have a production plate to 30% capacity and have it make a make economic sense for for the theater. So right now we are being called upon to be as creative as possible. And there isn't really any national guidance on what we're supposed to be doing. Or what ministry of culture, of course, and we're not subsidized. So the example that I gave you of the 70% seats being pulled out is the Berlin Berliner ensemble, right? And they have what 600 seat theater. And now they're only going to allow 30% in not every but not every theater in the world can do that. Especially here in the United States where the government is basically abdicated its role in in supporting the art art institutions, you're left to your own devices, even the big houses are trying to figure that out. Now if you come down to our level, there's basically not very much support. And we've been told by some people in higher offices that we should look for rich donors. To subsidize the gap between what we need to the cost of producing a production and then the shortfall and ticket sales. So if the and we don't have national guidance from from the DOH or from, or from any sort of health institutions to what do we need to do for safety, not just for our audiences, but for our actors and crew on stage, how are they going? How are they supposed to practice social distancing? Does that mean we're only doing one person shows or shows where they don't touch? How does that work? It doesn't? Yeah, those are those are real questions that we're sort of all asking. But we are all left to our own devices, basically, you know, just to give to our listeners also, a bit of context of New York City was an announcement I think yesterday, the Metropolitan Opera, one of the great operas in the world hasn't been able to pay their staff, they are artists in March. They will not perform until December. It might be a fundraiser on New Year's Eve. They don't even know afterwards. The financial outlook is unclear. It had already been struggling for various reasons, but it already had been. So there is the opera is no longer able at the moment, to take care of itself. So for a my theater company, which had to struggle in the event of the good times, and you know, I'm sure how hard you work every New York company that fundraises, you know, how hard and how much time goes into that, you know, so we are worried about you and you have done such a contribution to have the Asian American theater community visible. How was your experience? How do you feel? Do you fit in in the New York theater community at large? Is it visible? Are people know it? Is it easy as open arms is more complicated? How has it been? It's a struggle. It's a struggle to be seen and heard. And it's 30 years since we've started. A couple of weeks ago, the New York Times came out with an article about the cancellation or shuttering of multiple Asian American plays, which in some ways was a flowering of Asian American theater. This included the headlands at Lincoln Center, LCT3, the Endlings at New York Theater Workshop, Cambodian Rock Band at Signature Theater, Suicide Forest at Ma Yi, Wolf Play at Soho Rep and Young Jean Lee. That was on Broadway. Those were all closed. And the New York Times named all the theaters in that article except for us. Yeah. And so to me, what's the reason? Why do you think? Oh, I don't know. They said, they said, I think the excuse was, and this was from the editor that they only named the venues and not the theaters. But I, two of those plays canceled were produced by us. Two of the writers affected our writers laugh. Yeah. And when they say Wolf Play was produced by Soho Rep, but not us. And it was a co-production to me. It's like what? It's erasure, right? So for me, 30 years later, really, I still have to ask you to do this. And since you're talking about the flowering of Asian American theater, we started planting seeds 30 years ago. And we have the largest writers group in the United States. So those kinds of things we always come up against again and again. And at some point, you know, I also have my blow up moment, I'm going, you know, I'm tired of this. I'm tired of that moment. Tell us. Yeah, tell us. Well, I wrote to the New York Times. I wrote, right? Well, I said, explain to me how this kind of erasure is possible. When you did an in-depth article on Asian American Place being canceled, but never mentioned my theater company, and we were involved with four of the projects that you named. So how is that possible? And they said, Oh, no, you should be, you should keep quiet. Basically, I was told, you should keep quiet because we review your place. And I'm saying, you review my place has nothing to do with you this article where you focused on the flowering of Asian American theater and the cancellation of these plays, you review my theater because you owe your audiences, right? A consumer guide about what they should and shouldn't see. And because the Asian American theater community or the Asian American community, which is 12% of New York subscribes to your paper. That's why you should review me. And that all fell on deaf ears. They did add our name to that article after the fact, but I wasn't making noise. So you would add my name. The fact that you didn't see me to begin with is the issue. And it's not just me. It's every theater of color, every small theater company that has to beg the times to please, please, please review us. And the constant, constant, constant blind spots that we run up against with them. And I've sort of had it. I also want to say, you know what, don't come. Yeah, so there's that. So to me, it's always been a struggle of proving legitimacy of proving agency. Do we belong in the community? And it was a long, long, long struggle to be seen. And then just very recently, we have this event. And this, this happens to theaters of color all over the country. And it's, it's very frustrating. It's not just us. It's not just us. So every theater of color struggles with this. A real question here is, if you look at it, it's like what theater of color is able to export place to larger venues? How many productions started at theaters of color make it to the regionals? You probably you'd be challenged to sort of to name those place, right? That that is written by writers of color produced by a theater of color that moves. And, and, and, and the, the reason given always is that theater of color, your community is not a theater going community. So that refrain is still true today. So which I say, you can't expect a community to come and support your work if you've never had a relationship with that community. You can't just suddenly decide I'm going to do a black play and expect the black community to show up when you don't have a relationship with that black community. The same thing with Native Americans and Latinos and Asians. You, it's now fashionable for large theaters to program diversity into their seasons, right? But what you really want to ask is, is that for show? What kind of relationship do you have with the community? What a who who is who is watching? How are you bringing these communities into the theater to experience this work with you? And nine times out of 10. It's a it's a diversity programming gimmick without any relate without any effort to reach out to the community. They do it for two months before the show, and then drop it. And then that's that until they decide to do another one two years down the road. So those are, those are some of the things that we continue to struggle with. And I've already decided that I'm not going to work with a theater company that doesn't have, if it's a co production, if you don't have sort of existing programs for engaging with the communities that you want to represent, then we can't work together because I don't want to be used as your diversity. Pony, you know, and that's that's sort of been the constant in our production history, or in our 30 year history is that we're always having to say hi, guys, we're here. It's it's non stop. Yeah. And about this, this coronavirus thing, you know, we were all thinking about coronavirus, right? Starting in March. But last week that changed. Suddenly, it's not the coronavirus that we're thinking about today. It's the the protests that are happening in the street, because black people are getting shot around the country by police. And that that's a very real thing. And now, apart from trying to figure out how we're going to figure out how we're going to create, we have to try to understand like what we can do concretely to be to participate in what's happening in the street and to support the communities that need our support. So it's right now, it like it does feel like a like a big upheaval of multiple, multiple events that we need to sort of be very nimble around. And, and once again, I always go back to like, Oh, how did we do this? Like, what did we do to make sure we're connected to the people, right that are that are suffering the most and that we're representing that community the interests of that community or my community, my Asian American theater community, how are we bringing them together to support other communities of color? It's all, you know, this, it's an unbroken thread of struggle, civil rights struggles, equality struggles that go back many, many, many, many years. And, and I, that's what I want my community to sort of understand. Because racism runs across all communities, including mine. So that's the other thing that we have to do is educate even Asian Americans to try to understand what's going on, and that it's not different from our experiences that there are parallels to this, and that they're, you know, to build empathy for each other. So it's not one community of color against another community of color, which is already happening, right? Because one of the cops in Minneapolis is Asian. So they're taking those kinds of things and using it to divide communities of color even more. And we have to fight that. We have to fight all of those, those kinds of attempts to divide. And our president is really good at that, which is what's happening, why you have all of this upheaval up on the street, because he wants us to be disorganized and put as an in chaos is that if he if we're in chaos, he wins. And that's we're trying to fight that. I guess the other thing that we're working on right now is we're trying to very early on in the process. We decided that our focus for the next few months is to employ our community of artists to find jobs for them. We I am very of the opinion that this is a long hiatus, that this that we're not going to be able to really come together in a room until there's a vaccine. And hopefully there is one very soon. But looking at all the predict, you know, the steps that have to happen and the usual trajectory of vaccine development, it will take some time not just to come up with the vaccine, but to put it to manufacture it and distribute it widely and administer it widely enough so that people are safe. So potentially, we're not going to be able to do theater in a room again, like we used to for our year and a half or two years. And in that time, what do we do with all the individual artists, the freelancers, the house managers, the technicians, the designers, the actors, the writers, how are they going to make a living? And it also matters because we want to keep them in New York. A lot of artists have already planned to leave the city. You hear that and who's living? What's that? The artists are leaving from your community. Yes, some of some of them are some of them already left because they can't afford rents with no work. And as you know, some of them never qualified for unemployment. Some did, but also that ends. So a lot of them moved back when they could do their parents homes. And now I don't know that they can come back with no jobs, right? So one of the things we're trying to figure out is how do we keep our community intact and employed? So that's what we're leading with in the next few months is finding work for them. And what we've devised, at least for us right now is I've just convinced my board to support a transition from what we're doing right now into a digital format. So we're converting our rehearsal studio Midtown into a broadcast studio. And also developing broadcast kits, kits that we can send to the actors wherever they are, with light sound and whatever equipment they can cameras and all that stuff that they can put up a studio in their home. And we can remotely orchestrate all those remote sites into something like live theater. I don't know how that's all gonna work. It's we've never done it. But we're we're moving in that direction to try to give people work. The our technicians, our designers are now all working to convert our studio into a TV station. And we're buying equipment and and training on this new program that isn't going to be zoom. Because zoom is very limited. But we're going to come up with something that we can. It's all you know, it's almost like television, except it's going to be done live. And we're allowing our audiences to interact with the actors live. So we don't know how that's gonna work. But we're trying to wrap our brains around how to keep the live aspect going, even if we're on this format, we're in the internet. But it's all because we want to keep people employed. The creativity I think, you know, will follow. But first, we got to make sure people have money for rent and food. And that's what I'm working on. I've been making appeals to foundations to the government, you know, we got some PPP money to keep our staff, our staff is employed. My board has committed to keeping all the staff employed throughout this however long it takes. And, and also gave me a little bit of money to try to make this conversion happen. But that's what we're doing. And I don't know if it's if it will succeed, or how it's going to, how it's going to develop over time. But we just want the tools to give to artists, especially individual artists and freelancers who are sort of left out of the conversation here, is we're talking about theaters and institutions, how are they going to work? And we want to be able to give them send them the tools like okay, here's that or you can take, you know, go to the studio and create something and we'll record it. So we're doing that. And we've already commissioned three new plays that are already being developed with this format in mind, because I don't think you can take an existing play and then cram it into this digital format. I think the playwrights and the artists have to create specifically for it. And so we have three new commissions that went out. And they're all in various stages of development, some of them are ready to go. We're doing I think we might be doing an entire puppet thing in Wisconsin, because some of our artists are stuck in Wisconsin. And then we're doing another play in Staten Island with an entire family stuck at home. So we're we're figuring out what to do, and how to remain creative during during all this time. And now of course, with what's happening in the street, that's also something that's very front and center with what we're doing dealing with, and how we're going to respond to that. So last week, we had a I don't know if you know about play per view. They hold readings and then contribute the proceeds to a nonprofit theater in the city. And last week, we had a reading, but we decided that it's probably better to give all that money to racial justice. So we did that. And we're looking for those opportunities to see how we can help more than just sort of release statements on our website, like what can we do to make it to make a difference? And there's a lot going on, Frank. Yeah, and then with all of this stuff, you know, one of the things that we're struggling with is do we is this theater or is it a movie? And who's jurisdiction does it fall under? Is it afters equity or is it sag after? And so those questions are now plaguing all the theaters, like what are we doing? If you go digital? What does that mean? Who which union has jurisdiction over that? And that's something that's that everyone is trying to figure out a lot of conversations going on in boardrooms across the United States about how to do that with a lot of lawyers involved. So I don't know where that's all gonna end up. But I also know I can't wait for people in a room to decide what my season will be, right? Or if whether I can make art, that doesn't work with me. Like, you can't tell me what I can and can't do. So I'm trying to figure out how to still get people employed, work and make something as they're figuring out, you know, who makes the money. That's basically who gets the the benefits and the health and pension. But I can't wait for them to figure that out because it's June, right? We only have a few more months before the fall starts. Are we not going to do anything? So there's a lot going on, I think. And it's not just for me, it's for all my colleagues as well, off Broadway and off off Broadway, we're all trying to figure that out. And I think it's, but it's different for people who don't own their theaters, we don't own a theater, right? We've always just rented. And so I can't make a decision on say to say I'm only going to do 30% occupancy. Because I don't that space isn't mine. So I have to work through all of those challenges. And also figure out whether the landlords will cut us deals to lower the rents if we're only doing 30% occupancy. Yeah, there's a lot of things to consider a lot the the economics of making theater in the in the city are different, I think, than in many places around the world. I've been talking to colleagues in Asia, and they're they're also struggling with the same. They're also struggling with the same challenges, especially when it comes to freelancers and independent artists, putting them to work. So, so I think what what's especially useful for me is that I've been able to talk to these artists around the world and try to figure out what they're doing to see if we can apply it here and then share what we're trying to do to see if they can use it there. But there's an opportunity here, I think, to break down walls that have traditionally existed between our theaters, because of physical distance, that's gone. I can work with any artists now around the world without having to worry about, you know, can we bring them over here? So that's an opportunity, I think that needs to be explored. I, you know, we have all these new graduates, for example, right, who are leaving schools with their MFAs. I spoke to some graduating classes, and they're all worried about what they're going to do after school and whether there's employment waiting for them. And all of them have really, they're scared, as I am scared, but I, I talked to some of them. And, and, and I said to look at this again, as an opportunity to bring new ideas to the table, right? Theater doesn't have to be what it was before. There are ways it might be able to change. And you're the, you're the catalyst for that change. It's your ideas, you know, we, it's yours for the taking. And every theater company in the United States and in the world that are looking for these kinds of solutions for ideas, because we're all in the same boat. So if you, if you're a new graduate, and you have an idea, take it to a theater company, pitch it to the, to the people there and see, you know, if, if, if they might be interested, and I, I'm sure they will be because we don't know what we're doing. And we're looking for these kinds of ideas. And, you know, all these young kids will have, will have them. I spoke to a Chinese artist who just got her MFA and she's developing VR, virtual reality theater. So she designs all the sets, entire environment, and you watch it through your goggles, but there's a play inside. And you're actually in the play. So that's new. And maybe, you know, I encourage her to, to keep going. And I'm interested in all flow exploring that with us. And we're working with also with some people in Korea to try to, to tell a story about digital, the history of digital use in Korea and how we might be able to put that into a play. And the other thing too is that we're, you know, with this new reality, we're able to work with the disabled community in ways that we have not been before. Because again, they don't, you know, physical limitation is less of a factor now that we're all at home. So we developing a play with with deaf actors. So we're, you know, it's all visual and words are not, are not at the forefront of this, are not the important aspect of the play, we're developing that now. And so new things for us, things that we've never tried before, that's sort of, that's come our way. And I'm interested in doing it. Like I told you, it's like it feels like the beginning for me, because I don't know what I'm doing. And there seems like there's an opportunity here to do something that we've never done before. And that's sort of exciting, scary, exciting, daunting. But that's sort of in my DNA. And that's what I, that's what I respond to it. In ways, you know, that I had not been in touch with for many, many years. And so I know my hair is white. But but I yes, I'm in touch with that early part of me of like, there's something to do here that I don't know what it is, but I'm willing to sort of go down the road, see where it leads. Well, that is, that is, that is truly inspiring. Of course, all worrisome. What do you have to carry on your shoulders? Next to I'm sure other things of family and your own life and stuff we don't know. But the idea that the my theater is becoming a television studio. The idea that, you know, you say, now we reach out to disabled communities, how they can come to us. But maybe we do something with artists in in Korea, you know, we had people here from Taiwan, the Taiwanese government has given big grants to support artists very generously in one of their missions was, you know, create something new, try to find something, you know, perhaps can connect you with them with also that big fund. They put 150 millions within the first four weeks towards next to existing grants. What you are facing here is also a scandalous American reality that the arts are not supportive that there is no ministry of culture. We had our colleagues from Brazil who said it's devastating at the moment. It's really, really also is about food. Artists are being thrown into jail. Artists for the wrong Instagram for the wrong thing. And that the first thing that's new president was Arano did was to close down the Ministry of Culture. It doesn't even exist here. And it's heartbreaking to hear that also New York City in a way Kushner once did say that it's the melting pot that never melted, you know, that New York City is not proactive in that way as it perhaps could or shouldn't be to support you and your work. And we do have a commissioner of the arts and but still, you know, and that you say I'm on my own, but maybe we cannot wait many theaters wait, sing one of the big Broadway theaters, I think I don't hear of them making masks, I don't hear of them supporting social justice. And it's of course a commercial enterprise provides a lot of jobs and I'm also heartbroken for all of them or the musicians, the technicians, the actors, the arches, everybody, it's a you know, what makes New York New York. But it's inspiring to hear that you connect to an early artistic, you know, impulse. What you had when how did you start theater? When did you say I want to do that? Tell us a bit about that time in the Philippines? Oh, in high school, I went against my parents wishes and I enrolled in a theater workshop. Because I really wanted to do it. You just had the idea or did you see something or what I really wanted to do it. I really wanted to do it. But I couldn't you know, I wasn't allowed. So it was not a it was not a thing that you know, I needed to be either a doctor, a lawyer or a priest. Those were my choices. And, and I didn't I wasn't interested in any of them. So I went to the theater workshop. And I did it. And the first and as an actor. But the first time I stepped on stage and saw that I could make an audience laugh or react was like an epiphany for me. It's a drug, right? And I never wanted not to take it again. And so I found a way and even in college, I wasn't allowed to take theater arts. There was no way my parents would pay for that. For that course, so I had to take economics and finance. And then finish that before I could take theater. But it took a long time. And I knew then that I I really wanted to do it because I could see that that I I could do things on stage as an actor that I could never do in real life. It's one of those things. But eventually that grew because very quickly as I got out of high school or I think even the last year, year of high school, I got connected to the protest movement. And all throughout college, I think I got deeper and deeper into that. And so I did I no longer look this theater as personal therapy for myself or empowerment. I began to see it as a tool for change and a social mechanism for change. And that changed my perception of theater and what it can do. And then I came here and theater is vastly, vastly different. How did you get to New York? Oh, I started out I went to California first I had to I stay there for five years for school and then came to New York for school theater school. Yeah, yeah. And then came to New York with a bunch of my friends to study theater some more. But then I that was also within one year we had founded my theater company. And that sort of again changed my trajectory like, okay, I'm not interested. I'm less interested in acting. I want to see what we can do with this. And and then in 1996, the artistic director left. And I agreed to take on 1995, the director, artistic director left. And I agreed to be artistic director temporarily for a few months, until they could find a new artistic director. And here it is. 25 years later. And I'm still doing it. But but that that's how I sort of got into this theater thing. It was it was an escape for me in the beginning, but very quickly became something else. And in New York, when I came or at least in the United States, I mean, I couldn't get cast in anything with this fate. I mean, I was nobody used Asian actors in 1980. So you had no chance in the no, I know, I mean, I had to force myself. I was a spear carrier and in Shakespeare plays. And one in the Scottish play, I was the bloody soldier. So they covered me in blood so that they wouldn't say they wouldn't know that was Asian. There were those things. There were those things. And I accepted that. My California is its own animal. And I came to New York and thinking, you know, oh, it's a little easier. It's not. And that sort of also the reason we founded my Yi was because there were no opportunities for us. And we just, you know, I, it's also from the, my experience in the Philippines that I do not wait for anyone to solve my own problems. And this ethos that no one owes me anything, that I have to make it happen. And so that's how that happened. And every year, it's creeping forward a little bit. In, when was this, maybe 10 years ago, 12 years ago, our board embarked on a capital campaign that established a reserve, a capital reserve for the company that's still intact. That reserve pays for staff salaries. So no matter what happens, we're going to pay our staff. How big is your stuff? My right now we have five people, six. Now we hired another person six. Yeah, it's not big. And still it's a lot. We have to, we have to keep everybody going and create the play. So yeah, we're lean. And in some ways that that is why why we've survived if we had taken on real estate, right, and a big staff we would have been dead years ago. We would have been in debt for sure. But we remain nimble, I think. And that's part of why we lasted. And I don't see any reason to change. In the near future, especially now, I think leanness is your your friend. Large institutions, like you said, like the Met Opera are struggling. Because those payrolls are huge. And without revenue coming in, I don't know how to, how they're going to keep that up. So that is true for every large institution. As you know, OSF, the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, furloughed 80% of its staff. That is huge. And I know that even the public had to do that some but I think they very hired all of them back. But a lot of people are out of work. And I don't know how we're going to put how it's all going to fall into place without intervention from our government. I have to say, though, that the city, the Department of Culture Affairs has been sort of helpful over the years. But they're, they're, they're also their hands are tied behind their backs. Because the money this year and next will be severely cut. The city is looking at a $9 billion deficit this fiscal year. And that means cutting services across the board, from teachers to firemen to police to, of course, the arts will always be the last priority. And so we, everyone has to plan on severely reduced help from the city and the state. And who knows what the NEA will be doing. They have an emergency fund of $75 million for cares, you know, for all the arts for painting, film, poetry, sculpture, theater, opera, I mean, it's just as ridiculous. I mean, also, of course, you know, there is a lot of money for the arts in America. Some studies suggest there might even be more than in Europe, but it goes to very big institutions, 90 to 95% if I understand why the budget of New York City goes to the big players or the witness of the world. I hear rumors that lighting technician the head of the Metropolitan Opera makes a million or a million and a half completely out of balance with what is needed that smaller institutions still have the struggle to be supported that there is an inequality and I don't think we should close the mat. On the contrary, I think opera is fantastic and it's great, but also have that and include and maybe invite you guys to do opera one day or somewhere. It doesn't maybe have to be the big one or whatever, but open your space. And that's missing. It's even hard. I'm sure you would call any big institution, can I get a rehearsal space from you, even though they get so much more money, they will say no pay us and pay a lot. I've done I've been through that and when we work for the create New York thing, so it's complicated. And I think what you do is is inspiring just to think the fact that you say, yeah, it's okay, let's find out about VR. Who would have saw that the my theater company will say, you know, this is something interesting. Let's look into it. Yeah, it's incredible. But it is actually also and but it is inequality. Something is really wrong. It has to change. And the question is how do we do that? A question for you also personally, you said you changed from this kind of having fun in this theater. But of course, there were deeper reasons to go in there to you could also have fun at parties, or hiking, you know, but you went to theater and perhaps what your parents wanted you to do to be a doctor, a priest, and a lawyer, that's what you are. You know, you help to heal the city. You give a spiritual help and the kind of create art that people keep meaning and your lawyer, you are advocating for social change. So you do actually all of that, just in a different way. But do you think it worked? You say, I went into to be part of social change. Is it really working? Is do you feel art can do that theater can do that? It's a challenge here in the United States because that connection is is not made. You know, a theater here is commercial. Most of the times, also because the government forced us to think like businesses, right? We had to be sustainable. We had to have capital plans. We had to have that's how we're we're asked to run theaters. So tying our activity into social change, it's not an easy thing, but it is possible. And I think the for example, the Foundry Theater has done that very, very successfully in New York. Melanie, you also said you have to have Ralph on there, you know, on the Seedles box. Yeah, they did that in a most beautiful way. That's correct pins and needle musical, you know, and so on. Why don't many other the bus tours? Things are possible. It's true. But still, the Trump gets elected. We have that situation now. What maybe we did things wrong? I like also that you said early on, you had the Bolesk idea. It did work. You know, somehow the police weren't shooting at you, you connected, you were on the streets, you did something for the people. It's where seems all simple, but there's something in there that that that it works. So you think, do you think in 10, 20 years, it will be different in New York, or will once we are over this, it was that everybody will be just go back to how it was a great presence of the commercial theater, which I think four or five billion, though, I don't know what that really is. I think six billion, I think, single Lion King made eight or $10 billion in revenue, the Disney Company and the history has never made more as much money or universal with with their Broadway shows. And it's not distributed. It's not even great restaurant chefs says we have the $300 but we need to have the great bistro restaurant for affordable prices. It's a sport and they do that, but it is not really yet there. And as you say, the Asian American community is a large one. It's a big one. Interested one, you know, makes such a big contribution. But languages are not represented. Stories are not represented. The Gorky theater from Berlin, which we had as visitors, every play they show has Turkish subtitles. They don't think it has to be in German. And I never thought about this. They said, Yeah, why should we? So here it would be why is everything in English? You know, why shouldn't their subtitle and our small theaters, but also on the big ones? I don't think that way, you know. So but do you think that will change will take place? In the near term, yes, but it will revert back to a money driven enterprise. I don't see the government stepping up its support for the arts. And without that, it'll be a private concern. And in the private sector money rules. And because Broadway has been proven to be a moneymaker, it's going to try its best to go back to that model and it will win. Once everybody feels safe enough. But in the near term, they might have to make concessions on prices. In the near term, maybe if they can go, we can start again in a couple of years, the prices might adjust because you know, who's going to pay $600 to see Hamilton? So in the near term change, but in the long term, no. But that has all that that tension has always existed between commercial theater and sort of meaningful community theater or whatever you want to call it or the independent theater that that has always existed and will continue to exist. Because we, you know, it can't just be frozen all the time or Lion King all the time. What makes New York great is that you have this monopoly of theatrical experiences. And that's what we want to keep. You know, Broadway is important because it employs people at the highest level. I want my friends to make money like that. But then you also have this other range of theaters that make the city vibrant and vital. I think that's why people like it like to come here. It's not because of Broadway, but because it's there's a whole community of artists creating. And we never would like to see a bookstore where we just have the 20 or 30 most sold books. No, we want the bookstore full of shelves and the small ones and they support they connect. Yes, and often the best those are great, great books often they are not. And, and I think what comes up a lot in our talk to say, you know, we have to go back to small spaces. That's how we started, but it actually also worked. We are close to the actor. There's something in there that is closer to the nature of theater of sharing a moment that actors age in the same time where you're there, you share and you build the heartbeats synchronize it and all these things we do know and actually people are healthier if they go to theaters and live music does something to our bodies, like walking in nature besides, of course, that we all should be doing it. And so I think perhaps the very big solutions are not the right ones, the best ones like, of course, we like a Dunkin Donut or something, but it's not good food. You know, it's not good for our bodies. And I think work you do in small spaces, innovative, it's creative, it's close to, to our eyes. I think something of significance happens there. And I think why New York City is so great that we have those big and the small, but still, a theater like you was all that you have achieved that you have to struggle so hard. You know, that luckily, you have a good board, you put things together, it's good for them that they support you, but not everybody had that. And, and we need to find new new structures. And what this crisis shows, it shows the structures are not working. And it's, it's, it is, it is complicated. So for you, the three things you commissioned, tell us a little bit about how did you had an open call? Or did you so we know that a bit what artists are reacting? So did you make an open call? Did you ask people you knew already? And what are the commissions about? What are you experimenting with? We have a writer's lab. So how many writers are in there? 34? Wow. Yeah. And they have to be Asian not have to be they are Asian. They are Asian American, you have to be they live in New York, they have to live in New York. They do because they have to meet every other week. Although some of them have taken TV jobs and are very successful. So men, some of them have moved to the West Coast. But others replace them. There's a big demand to be part of that writers group. And I initially approached three writers that I already knew that that had ideas that they had pitched to me before. And I thought, well, let's pick up where we left. And so I commissioned one writer whose idea was to write the death play. And that's already in its final stages, we're about to go into rehearsals for that. Say the name again. It's called Quiet Love. That's the title. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a play about with deaf actors. And he's working, that's a co, he wrote co wrote this with another deaf deaf play, right? So that's the track that they're headed. And I'm very interested in it again, because I want to reach it's an opportunity to work with the disabled community. Now, we did it a couple of seasons ago, we did teenage take at the public, which featured disabled actors. But this is I want to keep that thing going. And reach out to that community. And there's it's a big community. And we absolutely they should be part of our regular programming anyway. The other is a the other play is a we're calling itself a police in Staten Island. It's a family in Staten Island, Asian American family in Staten Island, that is home schooling their kids. And the and the subject that they're taking up now are soft police. So they're devising, they're working with two playwrights from our lab. They're vising a 30 minutes soft police play using found objects in their homes. It's the father, mother and the two kids and the grandma creating this entire play. And we have a cinematographer, and a director, and a dramaturge, all working remotely. So they're training the family to handle cameras. Family is a real is a family. It's real. Yeah, it's a real family. So the actors or the father is, but no one else is. So in the last few weeks, they've been staging plays. And now we have a cinematographer who's going to teach them how to use cameras and sound equipment and all that. And then we recorded. And and then that's that's one. The other is a puppet play. That is a riff on the Japanese know what we're setting it in a barn in Wisconsin. And it's about a Japanese American family that is experiencing displacement, cultural displacement in the middle of the city. And with the with a kid with who's on the spectrum. And it's a puppet play. But it's going to be shot. We're filming theater. So I don't know how does that's all going to work. But we're using the camera to capture how the theater puppetry is made. So hopefully what we're going to try to find is that there is a there is a way to intersect the queue in interesting ways. So it's not. It's not it's sort of one of the it's both simultaneously. That's the idea. I don't know how to do that yet. But that's going to that we're shooting that in September. And then I've started tapping all the other writers to come up with 30 minute format material, 30 to 40 minutes, which is, I think how people want to consume these things online. It's very difficult to ask people to watch something for two hours on their screens. I think we'll start pushing our audiences to longer and longer format. But in the beginning, we want to make sure they're with us and watching. And then we can go down and we're going to make a lot of mistakes. We're going to make a ton of mistakes. We've never done this before. And so we're going to try to improve ourselves. And when we're ready, then we'll we'll go long form. And also these are resources we're going to share not just with we're going to share to all the our fellow companies. So if they want to use the studios, it'll be available individual artists, it will be available. So we're not just keeping it to ourselves. I think, I think that's that sort of part of our civic duty to to share resources now. And also to find ways of working together, right, that we sometimes are never allowed to do. Because we're always trying to figure out how to survive. But this is an opportunity, I think to reach out across across communities like hey, let's work together. We have this. And what do you want to do? Fantastic. Yeah. We're going to have on Friday, Ashley, Tara, who created that that the Met Forest, the Churchill place came out of Bart College as an investor. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he commissioned it. And she had faced should I stop the rehearsals or not and was a coding genius or whatever they came up with some kind of a way to create something that seems to be work missing. She also has the idea to share it to show that technology and we will in whatever way that will be. I'm kind of way to hear from her. So she found something you will find something or collaborate in that way. We had their paper moon theater company from Indonesia also a lot of it. Yeah, and she said we are that they are one of their innovations was they sent puppet building material to families, they built something, you know, and then they will work something with them. They have also people in the community commission place. They pay $50 or whatever. Yeah. And they will create the writers or the paper for them just for them. They created things for nurses. So things are are moving. Yesterday, we had Emmanuel from the great theater de la ville in Paris, who said what we did is I said I didn't want to talk to anyone is so devastating. I just took use the phone. I use my time. Most probably the most this is the most resources and France and most in Europe. And he said we what we did as a homeopathic pill as a he would use a worked off healing and almost like a doctoral consultation. They would people could call from Paris to theater and talk to an actor on director and they would find a poem for them and read it for them make a recording encourage them. So new forms are popping up and he feels very strongly and I think we're ready to build bridges with the scientific community and with education, countries collaborate, work together, invited also New York to come out. So I think in a way, it's a forced innovation, but there is of course, a government support that goes beyond us in the theater de la ville mostly has more than three times as one theater what the NEA will give out as an emergency fund. So it's such a different, a different situation, what we face here, but I love to hear that you really are so innovative that you are taking up that challenge. I haven't heard that in that way, you know, from companies we are still struggling. We also slowly getting you know, in those 10 weeks now, we are moving ahead. But this isn't a significant development to hear from a New York company, how do we act, how fast you do that and how that will be shared, how many more viewers you might get for your work with the TV studios, the following maybe TV format minutes, but how many more viewers maybe even from around the world will see what you do and later on there might be a fusion man, the great philosopher said, when in really old, old tech tradition like Cedar comes together with something new, something happens and he kicked the dances of Louise Fuller who herself hold 40 patents on lighting and lights and moving things which she invented and everybody thought in your this was something great at the time and we people saw life in a different way and got it easy with the new times. But my question also for you we're coming closer and how did you as a person as well, you know, who went to high school and university and all of it and had started acting had to struggle with the fact that it was impossible to be in the way part of the theater community, you had to create your own, you were forced to do it, you had no other chance. And luckily, you had the tools and the tenacity and audacity to do it. But how are you experiencing this time? How long have you been confined? What's going through your mind? How do you how do you carry it also the responsibility and in your own life as a what's going on? Well, I've been confined here. For how long? Since March, since March 12 or March 15, I think I was at Long Wharf directing a play that just began tech on March 12, March 12 was our first day of tech. And that we never finished it, because halfway through it was decided that we couldn't move forward. So we all we all were sent home. This is at Long Wharf, they paid everyone though, their entire contracts. But ever since then, I've been home and I've stayed home pretty much since then, I don't venture out much, except if I have to buy something or walk around the block or something like that. But I come back in what it has done for me, I'm actually busier now than when I'm not confined. There's so much to do right now talking to artists, figuring out what the we're to get money. That's what I'm doing. I'm chasing money all over the place. And I'm, I'm driven. I guess this confinement, also knowing that the survival of the company depends on what on the decisions that we make in the near term, is driving me to make sure that we've got things in place. I'm, I don't know about it. But very early on, I went to the worst case scenario, like what happens if we're not able to do this? And we're not able to make theater for X number of years, what happens? We need to be prepared for that. And then hope that it doesn't last that long, but have a plan in place. So we're not caught flatfooted. There's also chasing new alliances, I think with other theater companies, and talking to the artists about what they're feeling, how they're feeling, what are they thinking about? What impulses do they have? How do we want to hot? How can we make art together? Or what are you? What are you thinking about? How can I support it? And then getting money out to the artists as quickly as possible. As soon as we get money, it's out. We're not hanging on to it. But then figuring out how to keep that thing going. And, and so that's what I've been doing here inside this, my apartment is finding money, talking to artists, looking for solutions, and coming up with plan after plan after plan. What if this happens, if that happens, if that happens, if that happens. What street is it in New York where you are? 47. I'm in Hell's Kitchen. I'm on 47 and nine. In Hell's Kitchen, the old Actors Studio neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So how do you keep your batteries running? How do you recharge? What do you do? Do you read? Do you listen to music? What do you talk to? And so how do you do it? I've been writing my thoughts down on how to Every day you write. I do every day I write. I don't watch TV. It's completely unnecessary to me right now. I read. I'm a noose junkie. So I read that now. But I'm also not consuming as much news as I used to because it's all about Trump. And I don't really care. So it's reading. Sometimes I'll listen to music, but it's mostly writing and thinking. I think a lot now. Like coming up with strategies. What am I going to do? Who am I going to go to? Can that person give me money? All that. That's all I think about every single day. And So what do you read? And what music do you listen to? Music is usually jazz and classical. I read a lot of nonfiction and autobiographies. Recently, though, I've been starting to read about New York history. I mean, I've had a collection of books about New York history, architecture, art, all that stuff. And it feels like I want to locate myself in the timeline of New York. Like this, where am I, you know, when this happened? Because I remember doing that in 9 11. And even before I've always been a junkie about New York history. But 9 11 was an opportunity to like, Oh, where are we? And where does this fit? And now here's another thing, a moment like that. Like, it's comforting to know that New York, New York is resilient. And that there's a long, long, long line of adverse events that people have had to deal with. And that it's somehow managed to sort of survive. That's comforting to me. Knowing that there's that. So yeah, I mean, this is my moment. This is where we are. And what are we going to do? And see how that all sort of fits in. It's part of it's part of everybody trying to figure out how to live in this time. And that's why I go back to those history books. I don't know why it's but that's where I find solace nowadays. It's reading like historical stuff. Yeah, someone I think it was before suggested also, we need to learn about history. So we learned that we don't learn from it, you know, so and to be reminded of it, but it's so it's a great, great, great city. And we'll go through this and we'll reinvent itself in the middle of a new chapter. It's as dangerous as the big financial crisis in the 70s. Yeah, you know, as the draft riots, as the complications, the depression, some people claim it's even more significant, unprecedented. We haven't felt the full brunt of it. You know, this is the beginning first curfew in 100 years in New York City, there has not been one if that's for years, the times I mean, so let's be in this moment, but let's all be part of a change as a closing statement. You know, what do you say, I guess to your 30 writers when they sit in their circle, I guess, or whatever you can, it's fantastic that you give a home to them and that you listen to their stories, you say they are important that you work so hard that they can be shown because they are our stories, they're everybody's story, how incredibly different they are, and that makes them so it's the same because they are different. So but what do you say to these artists in this time now? What should artists be doing? And what do should we all be thinking about? What is your advice? What do you think is of importance? I mean, it calls for this moment calls for generosity from everybody, including all the writers, including all the artists. What can you give to the world, to your community outside? It's about sharing what you have, being generous with your collaborators reaching out across divides. That's what we that's the advice and somehow find the creative impulses in those kinds of, of attempts, right? But that's what it calls for, you have to be generous. It can't be about me, me, me, me, or I, I, I or whatever. It's just not that's not going to work. And, and I hope that all the artists sort of think about that it's very difficult, you know, when you have nothing, when you're struggling, and you have no money to be generous, but there's ways to find that. And I think that's sort of how we get through this. That there is that moment of redemption at the end of this, but you have to be, you have to be giving as difficult as that is, that's the challenge is how to be generous now for all artists. Because we're, we're, you know, we've always lived in a culture of scarcity. But every time we make something, it's, it's an act of generosity, especially for nonprofit artists who make nothing. And now, I think it's a time to redouble those efforts even more. I don't, it's a lot to ask, but that's what the moment asks of artists right now. And in a way, I think it makes our community so special. It is a community that is really giving community, it's compassionate, and really, really generous. What artists do in their lives, the contribution they make to society, what they in the material representation get for it from that society. And it's truly also a community that makes me proud to be part of and be part of, and you're part of it. So we look up to you and your work. And it is very, very good advice to be passionate, to be present, to collaborate, and to, to do things. I think you gave us a real insight, you know, in for in this moment and this day and in this time, and your how you experience this, and of course, we could and have talked to many artists and companies, but this was a very special session, I saw where we really hopefully understand a bit more and also see the importance of your work. And I'm impressed, you know, by the initiatives, I haven't heard that so far. And that's saying you really are taking as you always have done action and create something and you don't wait for approval of things you do, you do something. And as you know, it's the only way otherwise that has never would have never been created. We just said, and I think it's wrong, that this way of working is hold up as a model by that liberal capitalism, look at the artist, they fail, no one supports them. But one day they become more, but I guess when you should be like this, be your own little company, be self employed. And maybe one day you make it, it's not true. This is not how it works. The structure now exposes it that this is wrong, that needs to be sustainable support for health insurance, for access to education, for access to the arts. That's what why governmental ideas are important. And we now see around the world what works and what doesn't. And it doesn't look good. In America, we have to take that series. So really, really, really, thank you. And I want to just, you know, let you guys know who's coming up again yesterday, we had this interesting talk with Emmanuel de Marsilmota from Paris and what his theater as a public theater theater de la ville, what they come up with was most impressive as a strategy, how they do it. And tomorrow we hear from Israel, three writers who will share with us the real complexity of that country. No, most of us should be 10 writers from Israel, but three will be their Ruth Cain or Joshua Sobole and Maya Arad Yassour will tell us about how they experienced the COVID moment, but also what is changing and how they see it. Avra Siridopoulou will talk us from Greece and from Cyprus and give us an update and Ashley Tata, which I have mentioned earlier, will share with us her experience from the Met Forest that Churchill Play that somehow found something. The work was the students what she did. And so the software she created, I think there is something in there. I think it is a work of art she created and it's something in between the theater of him. So we'd like to hear hear more. And yes, and Nigel Smith, James Strags, Tamila Woodward, the great Woody King will join us and others, you know, to focus also for this moment, black communities experience so horrible and devastating and what these images do to us images that also haunt us and that theater have to create images of imagination that go beyond the image that we remember, perhaps do not even meditate on what's behind how big that really is and that relentless thing about it produced. So and the great Jean-Luc Nancy, one of the great philosophers on this, will talk to us and give us why do we need art. And I think it will be an interesting conversation. I'm honored to host that. So please do stay connected. Join with us and Ralph again, a congratulation makes me proud to be in New York and to have company like yours. And but you really, really deserve help. You should get help as the all the other communities. The majority of New York City is no longer white. I also want to point that out. It is not reflected on the stages. It is not reflected in the institutions. I think there was a study before Tom Finkle Pearl took over the commission as commissioner of the arts. He did a study. It was the worst offender. Every fire department and the police department help coming. Everybody did well. The arts were the worst. How can that be? It's shocking. And so your contribution has been important when you are a pioneer. But as they say, pioneers are the one who gets the arrows in the back. So, but I really admire you that you went on and as you said, companies like the country and so many others melamine and I'm doing a work that contributed to the change and perhaps this will be people who really will listen more than before. So thank you all for joining to the audience. Thanks for taking our time. Getting our talks a little bit longer than we used to be. I hope you will forgive us. But these are complex stories and the situation we're in is complex. And perhaps it needs a bit more time. But listening is important. It's something also we can do. And it's important to have a great audience. Ultimately, it's all but you, the listeners, how does it work in your life? Will we all be able to change? Manuel talked about this, we have to do our self authentic change. We have to also work on ourselves. This is important. So this is fantastic of you guys to listen in and many, many other talks that are going on. We're just a small tiny part. We are very, very small center. And but it is of significance that we connect to the global world out there. And to hull around to support us every day. I know it's a big deal for them and not an easy thing to do. So yeah, Vijay Travis, thank you. Thank you for supporting hull around early on. I hear that you were when they created you were on their side and said that is supported. That is an important thing. And of course, the Segal team, Andy and Sanyang. And thank you all for listening for tuning in. Stay safe and stay tuned. And I hope you will join us tomorrow for an update from Israel. Bye bye.