 Good afternoon. Good morning. Thanks for joining us here at town meeting TV I'm so happy to be here with Stephanie you who is the new executive director at public assets Institute Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me the last time that we talked you were We were conversing about in your role as a researcher and basically one of the leads on the reports The public assets puts out that informs your legislative agenda and hopefully creates more equitable Vermont Yep, I think I summed that up, right? I was pretty good. Yeah, but now you're the executive director and you have followed the longtime founder Paul Silo and congratulations. Thank you. Thank you and technically starts January 1st, but I'll take it Yeah, okay good on tents and purposes. Yeah, and why were you excited to take up this role as ED? It's a big job. There's no question. That's a big job But you know, I've been with public assets for seven years now and it's it's really rewarding work I mean, we're really thinking about as you said how to make a more equitable equitable Vermont I've got lots of ideas And it's been really great to have been working with Paul for seven years and really have a sense of where we're going and Our board and staff are amazing. We have a great team. Sometimes it's hard work But I'm excited about different directions. We can take it and also to sort of keep our core work going And why don't you just recap the core work so folks? Yeah, so a lot of what we we work on is state budget related stuff So that includes for a state level policy about family economic security in particular. So wage laws also benefit You know benefit programs that kind of thing But then we also do a lot of work on education funding, which is a big part You know, it's the biggest job that the state does. So that's a big piece of it, too Yeah, so those are kind of our big areas, you know, and then other public policy issues as they come up It you know, it can vary from year to year some years last year was a big year for education funding Sometimes, you know, we've been involved in the family leave conversation minimum wage Can be a range and so you've recently or about to publish your state of working Vermont. Is that the right title? Yep I think it came out. Yeah, and they came out this week. So tell us what the key findings are So really what we wanted to look at in this report was to think about What the pre-pandemic baseline was what worked in terms of government interventions during the pandemic and then where we are now And so really what we're what we're looking at is this is that? Going back to the pre-pandemic normal isn't a great idea because there were a lot of people struggling to get by then Some of our government interventions worked really well We saw them work housing cash in people's pockets food aid all of that stuff really worked well And then we kind of pulled the rug out. So, you know How do we keep some of those programs going or restart them as the case may be for some of these things and really? Making sure that we have a state where everybody can thrive and really thinking about what we what we owe to each other collectively What what does it look like to make sure that everybody has what they need? Which I think was really kind of the the spirit that the pandemic awakened So one of the things that I've noticed is an increase in wages across the state Does your report see that or is that just anecdotal? No, there's definitely up been some some increases in wages as you know inflation has sort of eroded some of those Actual increases some of the real spending power there, but part of it's sort of a journey across the pandemic You know in the first year so many low-wage jobs got shut down That that sort of appeared like a wage increase, but wasn't really real and then in 2021 It looks like there's definitely competition for workers. So we've definitely seen wages grow up go up in a real way But again with inflation where it is how much whether people are better off in terms of spending hours sort of Depends on the job depends on the sector depends on your situation And then what about the great resignation this Discussion about where are all the workers? This is a great question. It's not one that we can really answer definitively I think we can say that there's a couple of factors going on So the first thing to know is that labor force participation So the share of working-age people that are in the labor force either employed or looking for work Is that it's lowest level in more than 40 years as long as we've been keeping track pretty much So and that cuts differently across age groups that cuts differently differently across education But it's but overall it's at its lowest level in four decades. So The question is where are all those people is it that wages have gone up enough that people are able to take That people who maybe had a second job aren't taking, you know only have one job now Or is it we know that there's a section of people who retired early who maybe it's not ideal financially But you know whether it's health considerations spouses health considerations, whatever it is We saw a lot of older people leaving the workforce You know a lot of sort of early retirements and so that's definitely a slice of it There's definitely lower participation among, you know the 16 to 24 25 year olds Which is which had been declining before the pandemic, but definitely has gotten worse So whether those are people who were working while they were in school or doing multiple things Or whether it was people who? You know are able to live at home a little longer or whatever the situation might be There's a lot of moving parts and there's not one We don't have one neat story yet, but I think it's all of these things sort of put together Well, I remember in 2008 a lot of people that were going to retire didn't And i'm not sure they held on for 12 years, but they may have I mean, right. I remember at least in the nonprofit sector. There is this real concern about a cliff And in 08 the cliff didn't happen, but I see it happening now among my peers for example No, we're definitely seeing you know among Vermont or 65 and older that there's been sort of a pretty big drop in labor force participation Don't know whether that's permanent certainly could be You know and it certainly could be health considerations as well So and I think that again the government interventions the fact that there was some Some cash in people's pocket may have made it a little easier at least in the beginning to to sort of bridge You know if you were a year or two out from retirement now, you've got A little bit of a bridge. Maybe you step it up a little bit Well, I know that child care has been a is a big issue in the state big issue in the policy agenda And that there were subsidies for child care for people during the pandemic and that has been withdrawn largely What are the implications of that shift? So part of what we're noting in the report is that there's a pretty substantial reduction in the number of providers And also a reduction in slots and in some areas of the state pretty big reductions in slots You know 30 40 percent of child care, you know slots in child care capacity going down some of that is Is school programs some after school programs not being able to find staff or or They're being less demand because For whatever reason, you know parents keeping kids home more parents not wanting kids in multiple sort of Exposed in multiple settings Um, so we're not quite sure but I think you know I think there's there's been a pretty good road map in vermont and some thinking about How to shore up the child care sector and and thinking about it also as early education, right? Not just not sort of just child care But what does pre-k look like how much of this is education and really thinking about it as more of a collective Responsibility rather than a user fee for parents, you know that the parents are paying for it And we know that a lot of child care providers are underpaid So that has also likely contributed to people leaving the jobs when there if there's a better paying job somewhere else You know, it's tough to hold on to people. So I think there's a lot of thinking about Good wages. What's the right mix? You know, what is how does education play a role in all of it? And you know, what is the right capacity in terms of what people need? So the governor recently came out with a parental leave proposal if I'm not mistaken family leave actually family leave proposal Um, and he had vetoed. I think the last Yep proposal And now he has this new one, which is Structured differently. Could you comment on what the governor's proposing in your view of whether it's the right way to go? I haven't dug into the details of this particular proposal Yet, but I will say that my understanding of it is that it's pretty similar to where the governor was a couple years ago Which was sort of a private version of this and a voluntary version of this and what the the family Leave coalition and the partners that we've worked with on this have been pretty Pretty clear that it needs to be open to everyone and that it needs to be, you know, a collective contribution So not this voluntary sort of privatized version But the way that what makes it work is having a lot of people involved in it Sort of like any kind of big pooled situation, you know, that's what makes the cost structure work at an affordable rate And it's pretty clear. I think that vermonters are in favor of a big family leave And I think the pandemic really underscored the importance of having some flexibility and in in work time and So, you know, we'll see So really the question is how do you finance it? Is it a kind of like an insurance pool? I mean, that's in effect with the original proposals that the legislature were right a public insurance version, right? Right, but even that proposal if I remember correctly, and I'm sorry. I'm not being concrete, but Um really didn't go far enough in meeting the needs that families have in terms of subsidizing their time away from the office Is that right? Well, I will say that so as I said, there's a family sort of a coalition that's been working on this for a number of years that we've been involved with and And their position had and I don't know sort of I don't know when the last kind of regrouping on this was But I think, you know, it always started from a from a more robust place And then the legislature sort of looking at the cost kind of Negotiated it down to you know, whether it was 12 weeks to six weeks whether, you know There was some discussion of which family members count which I think great The good news is I think we've backed off a little bit from that discussion because it really should be Up to the people who their family members are that they want to take care of But um, but you know and then how much is the wage replacement? You know how far up does that go? What's the and we'd like to see a really robust system in some states have a really robust system? I think you know Yes, six weeks is better than nothing But really we're talking about you know 12 weeks is is really the kind of a starting place of what makes sense Because you know, whether it's parental leave or whether it's at some other long-term illness, you know Six weeks goes by pretty fast. So I think you know, I think that is part of the conversation is really this disbalance between cost benefit and You know what makes sense, but it is very cost effective to do it as this group pool So whether you go, you know, so 12 weeks, I think is a pretty good starting place And we'd certainly like to see you know more we know plenty of countries where it's a year of parental leave or six months at least so you know 12 weeks is I think a pretty reasonable starting place. So what would happen in the legislature this by any and the Governor's got a proposal. I imagine then does the legislature bring their proposal back How does the house policy get made now, right? Well everything sort of resets in a new biennium So it's not going to be the same bill But you know a lot of sort of the same the same concepts will be there and and over the years There have been several different versions that have passed one or the other house So, you know, we'll we'll just see where they go There's definitely been some noise that I think the legislature is pretty committed legislative leadership pretty committed to A robust family leave package. So, you know, we'll we'll sort of see what the process looks like, but you know, I think We've got a pretty good Groundwork lead for it and then tell us how public assets research and analysis Gets turned into legislation. What's the session look like for you? And what are the priorities and how do you advance them? I appreciate that question. So, you know, it really depends. So this year, there's a couple different pieces that we're working on Um, one of the biggest pieces is talking about the EITC and the the earned income tax credit and the child tax credit So I don't know how well publicized it was but Vermont passed the child tax credit in last session And that's huge not that many states have them. It's a big, you know, it's a thousand dollars for Kids under six, um, you know up to a parent income of a, you know, certain level or guardian income of a certain level But but you know, it could certainly be bigger We want to make sure that it gets expanded to as many people It could be both bigger dollar wise and who's eligible could be expanded one of the areas that we're looking at is Making sure that all families are eligible for that credit. We'd also like to see the earned income tax credit go up I mean, again, we raised it the legislature raised it in this last session Um, but there's plenty of room to still grow there So that's so that's up there and also those are there's sort of an eligibility, you know Who qualifies and who doesn't is part of the conversation not just the the amount of it So those two pieces, um, again, that's what we saw work during the pandemic The federal child tax cut it was huge for putting money in people's pockets and we saw positive effects not just for those families, but you know across the economy more broadly And just really a great direct way to make sure people have what they need and to kind of, you know, keep our economy going So so I so that's one piece. We're also working with some partners on some some budget process stuff I mean, it's a little bit boring But um, but a lot of it is really centering the conversation around what Vermonters need And I think unfortunately what happens in our budget process a lot of the time is that We're kind of looking at or I'll say the legislature and administration are sort of looking at How much money is coming in and then deciding what they can do And there really hasn't been a balanced conversation about are we meeting the needs? It's really like these are these are all the needs we can afford to meet because this is how much money we have As opposed to a real conversation about do we need more revenue? Do we need different revenue in order to meet these needs because these needs are really important? And so, you know, one of the things that we found in our report was that these these pandemic Interventions You know, it was pretty straightforward put money in people's pockets reduced poverty. It works pretty well so You know, are we committed to keep to continuing to do that? So I think that's So that's another piece where we want to at least make sure that we're having that conversation and actively making those choices As opposed to starting from this place of We're not raising revenue and we're never going to talk about, you know, what the needs of Vermonters are You know, and you know, to you know, I want to be fair the legislature obviously spends a lot of time thinking and talking about the needs of Vermonters But they're always thinking about how to stay under that cap too. And so I think that's part of the challenge Um, and I really think, you know, we saw so much Community coming together, you know, so much mutual aid So, you know, sort of the spirit of collective, you know, meaning each other's collective needs together During the pandemic that I think there's a real space to keep that going So are you Concerned about the impact of the government printing massive amounts of money in order to pay for covid Subsidies and its impact on inflation. I mean, is there a connection between all of that? And on the one hand The covid subsidies put money in the pockets of people, but on the other hand the implications the inflationary pressures Um, also are not favorable for people So how does that economic cycle work and how do you justify spending more? And offset the downsides of creating more money So there's a lot going on with inflation and there's a lot of factors and of course, you know When when you see the price of gas go up when you see the price of food go up It has real immediate implications for people, especially if wages aren't growing fast enough But the the short answer is no, I'm not particularly worried about the government doing too much I would rather the government do too much and then we figure out the other piece and a lot of the inflationary pressures Are really out of outside Vermont's control when we looked at the main causes of inflation This also shows up in our report. It's really energy prices energy prices is the biggest jump. So home heating You know fuels as well as gas prices and those are really things that are happening across the country It's not particularly across the world really Worn Ukraine lots of other factors that are that are affecting that that we don't have a lot of control over So I would rather make sure that people have the money that they need and then we figure out what else we can do on these other things And and so that's not something that we're overly concerned about I think that again, there's a lot of factors that are influence influencing inflation Some of which, you know, the federal government is trying to do some things about Some of which are out of our control and we're weathering You know again with gas prices, there's been some federal intervention to kind of manage that but Um, but the main thing is making sure that people have what they need And are you uh, what's your view the governor? Talks a lot about the number of people that that pay taxes versus the number of people that consume services and that He's concerned that there are fewer and fewer people who are contributing to the tax pool and more and more people who are consuming Subsidies if you will that are paid for by those taxes What's do you understand what i'm saying? He has this formula and We're losing two of those people every day So what's your view on his analysis and how that is structured? I think it's a wrong question I think that I think that what we should the question we should be asked is Why do these people have enough to pay taxes and these people don't have enough to pay taxes in the first place? So I think that's the question We've certainly seen income inequality on the rise concentrated in the hands and and again The pandemic was a very we hope a very unusual situation and it also highlighted cracks in the system that already existed Right, so so we knew we had poverty before we knew that wages weren't keeping up with inflation We knew housing housing prices were unaffordable for a lot of people in the state So You know, but why is that the case? Is it wage policy? Is it, you know, it's a combination of all these things Is this wage policy? Is it historical inequities that? Value some jobs that you know lower than less less money than other jobs So I think there's a lot of factors in there So I think it's not about how many people do we have paying taxes And and and that's really sets up this us them dynamic, which just isn't accurate I think it's because at any given time people can use services You lose your job during the pandemic again a lot of people lost their jobs And had no control over it, you know, that was the biggest unemployment spike we've ever seen So So people are going to need services people needed help with food aid people needed help staying at housing And it's not an it's not a sort of giver taker split. It's that What does everybody need? What does everybody need collectively and in the moments in your life when You lose income for whatever reason or you have certain circumstances or there's ongoing systemic challenges like We devalue service jobs and care jobs Because of historic sex sexism and racism, you know, what do we do about that? So I think there's a lot of ways to really think about this as What is the collective sort of contract we should have with each other and how do we meet that? And not about who's paying what and who's not paying what? So the legislature is a pretty much a brand new Wave of people primarily democratic maybe you know Veto proof majorities in there interesting. So how do you see How do you see your agenda in light of the the new set of legislators and now you're really the lead lobbyist for public assets? You have an expanded role So when you look at this session and you look at this next group of people that you need to build relationships with What are you thinking? I think it's a great opportunity I mean I think I think and you know the whole veto proof magic number Various permission to issue but this is certainly a legislature that's interested I think in getting things done and and is certainly more progressive than legislatures that we've seen And we have this administration who has sort of stifled a lot of these conversations over the last six years So I think there's a lot of potential for these the conversations to shift You know, I have been doing a lot of the work for public assets for the last few years So it's not totally new and also I'll say that our main job is not lobbying Our main job tends to be trying to Put good data into the conversation trying to frame conversations in a way that is fact-based And but also, you know, our vision is a state that works for everyone So we're also working toward that and sort of those are our recommendations So, you know, I think it is more of the same. I think it's a great opportunity In terms of this legislature. I think there's a lot of creative energy and sort of interest in kind of Doing some big things. So I'm excited to see to see what happens and to, you know, hopefully help shape that And are there any any legislation besides what we've talked about that we want to be tracking That you're you're helping legislators make happen and would be worth tracking So some of the things, you know, we mentioned is if if we there's some work on EITC if there's Some work on budget process stuff You know, I think it's still sort of we're still sort of in that phase of trying to see what what issues are going to come up I do think family family leave is going to be a big one Although I'll say, you know, there are other organizations that are more of the lead on that that Really know what they're doing So, you know, I I don't know that there's anything particularly that I would point to We're always paying attention to the state budget and what's going on there And some of that has to do with, you know, as the federal covid money Sort of gets narrower in terms of where it is in the budget and what what we can do with it I think, you know, we're talking about Is there going to be a cliff and what do we do about that cliff and those pieces Education funding there's still some conversations going on with that You know, there's been a lot of changes made that haven't been fully implemented In terms of education funding that people weighed last year and even the specialized funding of a few years ago There's still pieces being implemented So I think we're still keeping an eye on any future changes with education funding too All right. Well, there's a lot ahead And congratulations and I just want to thank you because We um think really highly of public assets and the work that paul has done over these years and the Not just paul obviously, but the staff and the board and it's just great to see you being the leader Thank you. So thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. So we've been speaking with Stephanie. You she's the executive Director to be on january. Well, when you're watching this program january 2023 public assets institute And uh, we're looking forward to the work that you'll be doing to support the legislature this year. Thank you Thanks a lot. Thanks for watching