 Welcome. Thanks for being here. So glad to have you for another episode of the non-profit show. Today, we have back with us one of our favorites, Sherri Kwam-Taylor, CEO of Kwam-Taylor. Sherri is going to talk to us about next steps when it comes to your NPO and extreme growth. Excited to dive into this. Julia is enjoying a much-deserved and needed vacation. I hope that you're having a blast with some drinks with little cute umbrellas in them. Maybe even in a coconut or a pineapple. I'm Jarrett Ransom, your non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. We are honored to have the continued support of our presenting sponsors. For those of you watching, you can see the logos in front. Those of you listening, I will give them a shout out. Thank you so very much to Bloomerang, American Non-profit Academy, Fundraising Academy, non-profit nerd, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, and the non-profit thought leader. These companies keep us going and growing with our fantastic conversation, like the one we're about to have. If you miss any of today's episode or any of the previous almost 600 episodes, can you believe that Sherri? Six? As wild. Wild. High-five. You can find us on Roku, YouTube, Fire TV, Vimeo, but wait, there's more. There's the podcast. We have decided, we have all this content. Why are we holding it back from our podcast listeners? If you listen to podcast and you stream any podcast, chances are you can find us, the non-profit show on your streaming channels. Go ahead and tune us in for that as well. Sherri, welcome back. I'm so glad to be with you this morning. I am so glad to have you. For those of you that joined us in the green room chatter, you've heard that we are dressed alike. Not on purpose. This is not our uniform for the non-profit show, but it is our uniform saying we are ready for summer. Yes, absolutely. Well, you've been on a couple of times with the Sherri, so you're not a new face, you're not a new voice, and you bring so much value to the conversation. What have you been up to, and what has Quam Taylor been up to? Yeah, well, you know what? It's been another year of growth, which I can't complain a bit, and it probably even is inspiring the theme we're talking about today. Yeah, there was this moment when I started for advisory clients in January, and we were talking again a little bit beforehand, but they were kind of coming to me with different problems, but they were like the problems that I'm like, oh my gosh, they were growing. We've raised millions more this last year. We've got new billionaires on our list. We've got all of these very forward propelling problems, and I'm always on my soapbox about pushing scarcity mindset to the back, but not denying that the past couple of years has been really challenging for a lot of organizations, but it's also been really wonderful for so many who have stood in the gap and their funding has propelled them forward, and there's just real opportunity to do that again and be different, and that's what we're talking about today. That's what we're talking about, and in your right, I have been gratefully involved with some of this extreme growth in my community and around the nation as well. It's been fascinating to be a part of it, phenomenal to witness the conversations and to see the shift in mindset. So I am really excited to have you here, Sherry, talking about this extreme growth, and again, grateful for Kwam Taylor to provide this information. Thank you. For those of you that are interested, kwamthaler.com is Sherry's website. It's P-U-A-M-T-A-Y-L-O-R.com. So for those of you listening, you can check her out, of course. Well, hey, let's talk about this extreme growth. Let's dive into the deep end. I really don't like to play in the kiddie pool, the shallow end, like I am a deep end girl. Let's talk about embracing risk, and is your idea really risky? Yeah, this is so fun to talk about. So I think there's just been so long where we've felt that we have to be a little cautious as people who are stewarding donors money. Of course we do. I'm not saying don't be cautious, don't be transparent, all of those things, but I had such an interesting experience. One of my clients who I'm working with, she's grown tremendously these last 18 months, she has a new strategic plan to take her from 2 million to 10 million. I love that. I love when people come to me with their big vision and an actual documented plan to do it. And so I bring her up because, hey, she's really inspirational, but she is not only scaling her revenue to 10 million, but moving from serving thousands of girls to millions of girls and locally, to internationally. The plan feels to us internally like, whoa, this is, it's aggressive and there's probably some risk in here. We've been presenting that strategic plan to investment level donors and talking to them and really bringing them alongside as stakeholders. And we had such an interesting thing happen. We're talking to one donor and his response was, the plan doesn't feel risky enough. My jaw just dropped. I was not risky enough. It doesn't feel risky enough. And we were like, doesn't it feel risky enough? Like, are you reading the wrong plan? And so it's a- You can't really use that word, Sherry. They really are risky. Yes, same word. So, and it's not that donor who's, here's what you should be doing. And if I would give you money, you should do this. Like, he's not that kind of guy. He has grown his own career, his home business by taking risks, by being innovative, by pushing the envelope. And so he actually wants to invest in organizations that are doing the same. And I saw it. Refreshing, I'm sorry to interrupt. Yes. An investor, a funder, a supporter, a donor, whatever you want to call these people, right? To champion that. Because I really don't think that we in the nonprofit sector are willing to take risk because of the financial lack of security, right? Like, we're worried about the money. We're gonna talk about this later so I don't wanna give it away, but we talk about the scarcity mindset. We talk about we can't afford to do that. So to have the tables turned on you, on us to say this isn't risky enough. Yeah, it was such a breath of fresh air. And it really does have us thinking differently. How, what really is a win-win for this donor? And then also saying like, where are other places that perhaps we're assuming that donor wouldn't want to fund something like this? Or, and so that's why I say like, is our plan really that risky? It might be risky like in the mindset of, ooh, the old way we would talk about doing our planning well, let's not be too much. Let's not grow too fast, too quick. Well, so many organizations are coming off this 2X, 3X, 5X growth these last couple of years. There are things we need to be investing in and perhaps they were things that we should have been doing all along, but now donors have been educated, the sector has been educated. Life is just different. And so it's allowing us to actually push back a little bit or maybe embrace a little bit. It wasn't that risky all along. It's actually just us being really good business leaders. Well, and it's funny because what's risky to us and what's risky to the outside person as you witnessed is really not that risky. So that's fascinating. Let's talk about being next level because you and I had this conversation before we went live, before we even went to the green room chatter is now we have this risk opportunity and we even are starting to have investors ask us, invite us to be risky or how do we go to that next level? Yeah, yeah. I think part of this is it's like, if it's happened so quickly and it has for so many organizations, it's hard sometimes to make that mental shift of like, oh, well we were a $2 million organization and holy smokes, we're a 6 million. I have a six that's going to 11. And so it's kind of, so what I've been telling people is like, okay, so you're in new shoes now. So let's put those shoes here. We're gonna hop over in these shoes. Now let's enjoy them. Let's run in them. Let's do all the things that we don't- Let's make them fit us. First slice them to us. They're leather, they're gonna like move around and they're high quality leather. So it's gonna feel great. And so I think like there's some decisions though, it's a new list of decisions or a new list of problems and challenges. And whether it's, oh wait, how do we keep on this growth trajectory? Or it's like, oh my gosh, if we do another growth jump like that, this is gonna be really overwhelming. And so it's really looking at, how best do we steward this surge in funding? And so, I think in the past, even we would have said, oh my gosh, we're gonna really heavy into programs or might even restrict some of it to programs. But I would challenge people to really think about why nonprofits plateau in the first place is really less to do with funding strategy and more to do with the spend. And what I mean by that is sometimes we're just not growing to the number we want to grow to because we simply aren't spending enough. We are investing enough in the organization that puts us on that forward propelling trajectory. And so you have this opportunity right now to really think about, yes, of course you're gonna grow your programs. Of course you are, that's why you're doing what you're doing. But where perhaps do you need to be next level when it comes to operations? When it comes to infrastructure, when it comes to your team, where do we need to be investing in people, their skills, systems, all the things that we say, oh, we don't have enough money for that. I had shared with you again, before we jumped onto the call about an organization I am playing with. And they've gone from like a 1.4, 1.5 to a 4.5 million. Amazing. And 12 FTEs, full-time employees to 45 FTE, 45 employees. Wild. Extreme growth, right? And I've talked on the show before about organizations when I say, if money wasn't an issue, what would you ask for? And I kid you not, Sherry, the thing that I hear is a new coffee pot, new office chair. Well, guess what? We just got a new coffee pot. Well, here it is. Extreme growth, we're getting a Cuisinart, right? We're getting a really good coffee pot to keep us caffeinated. But all jokes aside, these extreme growth opportunities are happening. Julie and I talked about, even with you, early in the pandemic, 2020, 2021, nonprofits are saying, I'm just gonna press the pause button. I'm going to sit this one out. I'm gonna wait for it to go over and we'll get back to it when COVID's over. COVID is not over. Pandemics plural are still happening, right? Social injustice, environmental divide. There's so many pandemics that are taking... Yeah, you pick, you pick the issue. You pick the issue, it's happening. And then now, soon, we have a political campaigning for a presidential campaign in the US starting to take shape and hit. So really looking at, how do we play at that next level? My question to you is the sustainability factor. We're playing big now and we're buying these Cuisinart, again, but we're buying these coffee pots and buying new furniture. How do we look at the growth and sustainability of this? Your client that said, we're playing international. How do we keep that momentum? Yeah. I think part of the momentum, no, I'll back up. I wouldn't tell them again, shoot for another 5 million. Shoot, just make it 10. I would never say we should be scaling at that rate year on year. But what I would say is, let's make sure we're not just looking at the sustainability from, okay, we've hired 10 new program staff, but what then makes those program staff or the program sustainable? And again, it's really looking at from an administrative standpoint, from an ops standpoint. I think of your example of going to 45 FTEs, did HR, did the HR department grow right alongside that? Or was that just program? Or even from a revenue perspective, I've spent the last 18 months working with so many groups on, okay, so you're at 10, you wanna be at 15 now in the next two years. So what really is the math on your fundraising team? Because the three people you have like doesn't get you to 15. And who should those people be? What should they be yielding? And what amount of time? And so there's a real math equation that has to happen to make sure that you can sustain the revenue and not just hope that sustains. That's right, yeah, that is juicy and I love it. And you have to spend money, invest money to build sustainability models, to make this continue and to continue in such a well-performed state of mind. So already we've talked about embracing that risk and are we being risky enough? I love, love, love that you've had a funder say, okay, this is great, but I invite you to be a little riskier, right? And you know what's even crazier about that? About two weeks after we had that conversation, another funder was asking about it. Not bad. And I said, okay, great, now we get to go back to the first funder and say, you know what? We're so glad we had that conversation with you because it's coming up more often and really get insight and bring them alongside and really have them kind of help us think through this. That's right. It's a great relationship building. I love that. And then we talk about, you know, how are we next level? What does that look like? You know, our mindset, that's a big one that I see. I'm sure you do too. But you know, really looking at, okay, are we playing in that next level? Do our system match next level? Do our infrastructure, you know, really looking at that? So now let's talk about, again, all jokes aside, buying a new coffee pot. Yeah, my favorite topic. On scarcity and really like lean in and believe fully in abundance. How do we do this? Yeah, I think all of this today is really like, are we dreaming a big enough dream? Right? And then are we putting the systems in place and getting help, getting consultants, getting staff, getting, you know, the board in place that really can help you achieve that. And so, you know, I love talking about scarcity and getting on my soapbox a little bit on this. Get on it, get on it. I love it. But you know, I think it's, there's never been greater permission to break these habits. Perhaps we have some new assumptions that we can make. Like, maybe we can start assuming donors don't only want to fund projects. Maybe we should assume that your donor actually wants to give you an unrestricted gift and they want to give you a bigger gift and they want to give it every year. You know, like these are things that are, just all these misconceptions that are deeply rooted in us. And I just beg of everyone to put them behind you and push forward and let's make new assumptions. Let's make new assumptions that are really reflective of how you as nonprofit leaders have stood in the gap for all of us these last two years and you are worthy of being invested in. You're worthy of receiving large gifts. You're worthy of us investing in your businesses you're growing that are changing lives. And you can steward that capital. Steward the capital. And so let's now embrace these assumptions and operate as if they were true. And that will attract your tribe. That will attract the donors that you, that are not only qualified, but like want to be in partnership with you. That's great cause you don't have to chase those donors. They actually want to be in partnership with you. They're asking to, they're saying go bigger, go bolder. We have a question from one of our viewers, yeah, live. They ask, it often seems to me that either the board members or the senior staff are risk adverse, other than new recruitment. How do you recommend building an alignment with a higher risk appetite? Yeah, this is, you know what? It always comes back to the board, doesn't it? This is why I say, actually a client of mine sent me this video I was watching and I'm not even gonna remember what it was fun from, but it was kind of saying like, I don't need more board training. We need more board education because we need to educate them that we don't need to be fearful about all these old assumptions. And that actually your board's comfort level with investing, spending, planning and budgeting actually has way more to do or more influence on your growth by millions than even them bringing some wealthy person to a fundraising event. And so this is the education that has to happen that the board really has so much influence on the business behind fundraising. Name of my podcast is why I named it this. We have to fix the business behind fundraising which frankly should kind of be speaking the board's language when they're business people usually that has so much influence on how much money you can raise and how much money you should raise. And so there's no magic silver bullet answer to this question, but I wanna say that we have to continually educate our board and really play out the numbers and play out the path and help them remove the fear of, oh, I don't know what our donors are gonna think of that. It's just constant, it's absolutely constant. Yeah, I love that differential of training versus education. I that hits home to me and I really There's something to it. There's something to it. When I think, and I look around the board table and we've sat at many and we've been there especially virtual now. I think about the business owners, the civically engaged leaders that sit at the table. And I think about how innovative have they been in their own businesses, right? How risky have they been willing to be within their own lives? And if you can kind of do an inventory of that with me, Sherry, I'm curious if we can relate what we are looking to do from a business, because nonprofits are businesses, right? And to play this to our board members, fiduciary governing agents of the mission and the cause. How do we make that connection for them? Yeah, we really have to model that for them. Just what you described from the board member perspective like oftentimes even when I'm doing major donor coaching I'll say like, hold on a second where we're kind of afraid to go in and ask we're afraid is it too much? This person has probably sat and asked for investments they've had to present, they've had to pitch. And so how wonderful we get to speak their language. How wonderful we get to sit CEO to CEO at the table and share with them how you're scaling. Share with them where the risks are but share with them what you know and what you know to be true and what are those plans you have? You're not shooting by your hip or whatever that phrase is. Same with the board, like my guess is they are doing very similar things scaling and growing their businesses. And being innovative. Being innovative, being risk takers but ultimately it's calculated risk. Yeah, or it's going to die. You know, I do say I'm shooting from the hips but these hips have 25 years of nonprofit experience on them. Thank you for taking that phrase and putting it like spinning it. I was like, wait, what is the hip thing? Yeah, shooting from the hip but again, like we have day in, day out seasoned experience, right? And so we're really bringing the best practice and what we've seen. And I know the viewer that asked this question they too have very experienced hips. And so really looking at what information are we bringing to the conversation? And I've said all along our sector has been way overdue for the shakeup. So this innovation I firmly believe in abundance right along with you, my friend and I firmly believe in innovation as we move the needle forward in our globe, right? And yeah, looking at how are we serving the need in our community and as a global citizen what I do here in my pocket affects you where you live in the nation and our guests in Canada. So really looking at how we impact our community and that huge ripple effect innovation it's gonna play a big part. It has to play a big part and we have to be willing to take that risk. And I love, love, love, love I sounded a little bit like Carmen the frog of bringing in the conversation of the funder to say please be more risky, please take this on, own it. Let's get to that next level. Right, yeah, just like we would tell anybody don't decide what that donor can give before you go to the meeting. I don't think they could give 50s so let's just ask them for 25. Don't go in saying they're not going to want to do that. That would be too much for them. Your job is to present the need and to present the plan and ask for their best gift and really lead them to that conversation and through that conversation. And it's so interesting to watch right now my organizations that really do have some pretty aggressive strategic plans. They're really attracting those types of donors who are saying, yeah, I hear something different in how you're presenting the need. I hear, I like what you're doing. I like that you're pushing the envelope. So let's assume and embrace that the people are ready for that. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. And people want to be part of a winning team. Julia says that often. She's right. People really want to be a part of a winning team. We want to be a part of something new and fun and fresh and looking at things differently because what we have learned to be true, we cannot do the same all, same all over and over, over again. I think that's the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thing. I think you're right. And expecting a different result. The door is open. So walk through it. You know, walk through. Run through it, right? Like run through it. Let's break that. I think of like the Kool-Aid man and we're busting through that block wall. It's like, you know, just straight through that. So abundance truly is all around. I love hearing this from you. I love knowing that you're coaching leaders across the nation in this space, Sherry. So let's all, I feel like we could take a pledge right now to turn our back on scarcity, right? I pledged to turn my back on scarcity and to truly believe in that abundance that it is all around and it is so that funders are asking for it. Yeah. So good. It's, you're always a breath of fresh air. You're wearing a nice, warm, cozy sweater in this photo, but you and I are both dressed for summer and summer fun. So Sherry Kwam-Taylor, CEO of Kwam-Taylor. And again, for those of you listening, it's Q-U-A-M-T-A-Y-L-O-R dot com. Fascinating soul, so much experience and seasoned hips, my friend. Thank you. That is the best compliment I've gotten all day. Absolutely. Thanks, Sherry. We're so glad that you're here. Julia Patrick and I are both big fans of yours. So thank you for joining us. And thank you, of course, to our presenting sponsors that keep us going and growing in this space. We are so very honored to have their continued support. And again, I will thank them with a huge shout out to Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, Your Part-Time Controller, Staffing Boutique and the Nonprofit Thought Leader. We are still the only nation's non-profit live daily webcast and podcast. So please do tune in with us tomorrow. We have another fascinating guest in next month. In fact, we are booked out through August. So I attended AFP icon. Did you go? Cause I didn't- No, not this year. I'm like, if you were there and I didn't see you, I would have hunted you down. I would be very sad. So a lot of guests are coming to us that I was able to meet in person at AFP icon and just make those connections. So really excited to have a robust lineup all the way through August and beyond. So Jerry, thank you. Thanks for having me, Jerry. Hey, and have a fantastic summer. I'm excited to hear how your family vacation turns out this summer. And all of you, please join us back here tomorrow and we end every episode as we always do to please stay well so we can all continue to do well. Thanks so much. It's always a pleasure.