 Global Just Recovery Gathering. Welcome to our Global Just Recovery Gathering panel on Hearing the Guardians of the Yet. I am Fintan Lutunathan Boa and I have the absolute privilege to be in conversation with these three incredible human beings. Ariel Doranje is an indigenous activist from the Athabasca Chippewan-Sesnation. Francisco Manzaneres is an 11-year-old Colombian climate and environmental activist. And Nolín Nambulipo is an activist and advocate for disenfranchised women and peoples in the Pacific. Francisco, Ariel and Nolín, it is such an honor to be in conversation with each of you. Thank you so much for being willing to do this. I wanted to chat a little bit with you today because guardianship or stewardship over the sacred places we call home have become so much of what each of you do. Right now especially our people, our communities and the places we are called to protect are struggling. People like yourselves are out there doing the work of resistance, reshaping realities, reimagining resistance, and also doing the work of reconciliation to live through both this climate crisis and this health crisis. People are tired and people are also tough. Folks doing their best to stay grounded in the audacity of hope and the level groundedness of heart. So I want to begin by again thanking all three of you for being here. I want to honor and acknowledge the sacred spaces we are all joining in from. And the many ways, shapes and forms you're present with us today. I am hoping we can meet each of you where you are and get a sense of the grounding behind how you move through this world. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I used myself in my Indigenous language, which is Dene, or Dene Since the May, and I come from the Treaty 8 territory in Northern Alberta, in so-called Canada. And I think that's a really important question, is how relationship with the land drives the work that I do personally, and I can speak to my story. just the introduction of myself in my language and recognizing the names of our places is really important. The name Athabasca Chippewan First Nation, which is the name that the colonial governments and structures gave our territories and our people during colonization, isn't actually our name. And my nation's in the process of reclaiming that. And our true name is Kaithale Dene Sotlene. And it means people of the willow, people of the land. And it's a reference to the actual landscapes where our people originated from, which is the peace Athabasca Delta. And the deltas are a mix of marshlands and forests, boreal forests, and the last inland freshwater delta in the world, the largest inland freshwater delta in the world. And so this is a beautiful landscape with so much biodiversity that it's been recognized as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in the Wood Buffalo National Park. And it is robust with so many different plants, so many different songbirds and migratory birds, including the last migratory whooping crane on the planet, last remaining migrating whooping cranes on the planet. And a million other beautiful birds and songbirds, as well as a unique genetically unique herd of bison, free roaming bison, moose, caribou, which are in a species at risk, beavers, muskrats, you know, wolves, lynx, these beautiful creatures. And when we, the reason this is so important is that who we are as Dene people, when we say people of the willow, we are the people of the willow, but the willow is also home. And the delta is also home to so much more. And there's a common phrase in a lot of indigenous nations throughout North America or Turtle Island that say, all my relations, we often end a lot of our prayers with all my relations. And that is to give reverence and respect to the fact that everything is a part of our relations. And I think about growing up and the way that I was raised, I was raised to understand that I was related to the wolf and the bison and the caribou and the muskrat and the lynx. I was related to the rivers and the forests and the sand dunes that are part of our, our landscapes. We were related to all of the medicines. And in fact, we are often given medicine names. And I have this really great story that I want to share because I just, I find it so powerful, beautiful, that when you revere and see the world as your relation, as opposed to something to dominate, to own, to control, to develop for resources, you develop an intimate relationship that actually results in language. And I was given a medicine name for peppermint, which is a plant that grows in the Athabasca Delta. And I remember I was about five years old and I really wanted to go pick these, these mint leaves. And I went down to the little marsh area because I knew that's where they grew. And I was looking and looking and looking and I couldn't find any. And I went back and I was looking at the plant, I was like, what does it look like? My mom's like, it looks like this. And I was just like, I can't find any. She's like, it's there. And I was like, I went back out and I looked, I was like, I can't find any at all. And she stopped and she said, did you talk to the plants? Did you talk to the peppermint? And I said, no. And she's like, did you make it an offering? And I said, no. And she gives me a little bit of tobacco in my hand. She goes, take it, go talk to the peppermint and give it an offering. And she's like, and you'll find it, I promise. And I went back out to the land and I sat down on the shore where I had looked a million times. And I just closed my eyes and I started speaking to the peppermint plant. I said, I'm here, I honor you, I respect you. And I give my little offering, I pray, I say all my relations at the end. And I low and behold, I open my eyes and I was sitting the entire time in a patch of peppermint. I just couldn't see it because I wasn't speaking to it. And this is a description of the ways in which relationships with the natural world aren't just some mythical, magical thing. They are tangible and they are real. They allow us to see the living world in a completely different way that when you are disconnected from those places, you see them as something that's not a part of you. You see them potentially as an object, as something to control or own or dominate, which came with colonization, this dominance, this desire, man's dominion over nature. And that was such a foreign concept to our people and our families. And people don't understand that colonization isn't something that happened a long time ago. The treaty in my territory was signed in 1899. And my grandfather, not my great distant, someone I didn't know, but my grandfather who I knew and grew up with, who didn't speak a lick of English, only spoke Dene. So my grandfather was a child when treaties were signed in my territory, which is an important context to understand that these aren't distant memories. These are lived experiences of our people. We are still in a process of colonization, which is trying to further remove us from these landscapes that fed us, that closed us, that gave us medicines, that taught us the languages of the lands and the river systems and the air and the ecosystems all around us. We have clan systems that are named after the animals in our territories. And it's really intrinsically important for our people to protect these things because they're the languages that our colonizers and settler folks don't understand. They don't hear the words of the peppermint. They don't hear the words of the caribou. And in my territory, we are inundated with the expansion of the Alberta oil sands, which is the largest industrial project on earth to dig up bottom of the barrel fossil fuels that is threatening all of those beautiful landscapes, these places that nurtured my grandparents, my parents, my great-grandparents, and so on and so forth for millennia. And my chief once said, if they destroy the delta, then who are we? Who are we if there is no more Athabasca delta? Who are we if there's no more Caithale Donnes of Lene? And it's really important that where we come from is intrinsically a part of our identities to the core and that we carry intergenerational and blood memory of those relationships, those languages, those songs and the memories of the land. And we continue to enact our responsibilities to speak for those that cannot speak. I love that. Hello everyone. And really, it's a wonderful session to be part of. So I'd say from who I am and from where I come, my father's people's from Drabualu, Nadeva and Kandavu, and that's the southernmost island group of the Fiji area of islands, but also my mother's from settler colonialist people of Australia and Europe. So I think I've imbibed and and been part of both the struggles for decolonization myself in this body, but also growing up both in Fiji for particularly, you know, from birth to about 1617 and then being taken to Australia and trying to find, you know, what is my place in that place and what is my relationality to the indigenous peoples there, to migrants there, experiencing, you know, that kind of dislocation myself and then coming home and then rediscovering home at a different time in your life. You know, the other thing about this beautiful thing is that I don't know, I think I'm both part of the cacophony that we create, but also the music, you know, of earth systems. So and we're making them, we're making this music as we go. So for me, I think it came from kind of an early understanding that there were so many who were experiencing injustice and that I was disquieted first and then curious and trying to find out, you know, what's my place in working on issues of justice and equality and liberation and, you know, we hear a lot of these words, but as humans we're trying to make sense of them all the time. So part of that work, I think for me now at 53 years old is that I am trying to do both, you know, the work that we have to do in community because of where we are right now, but also that there's a specific need that I'm trying to fill for myself and with my collective and communities for rest and quiet and well-being work. And that's for not just because we needed for our bodies, but also said that we can listen a bit better and more deeply and really discern more what's necessary in our work because this repairing of the ecosphere and this, you know, wonderful support for us and other species of this incredible planet, we're breaking that and we need to kind of quieten the noise and let, you know, to me this idea about guardians, yes it's us, but much more it's the bees and it's the frogs and it's the insects and it's the microbes and really antibiotics, you know, and it's about all of these things that are under threat. They're telling us really clearly and strongly that we're killing so many systems. The bees are abandoning the hives, so they're speaking clearly, birds are dropping from the skies, you know, whales are beaching themselves and for many reasons there's noise, there's pollution, these incredible boats that we send out, ships that we send out around the ocean and really breaking those lines of passage that we've all had on the planet. So those things, children are also showing us very clearly, you know, the effects on their bodies, on their energies and so we keep trying to silence those voices, the guardians with drugs, we do it with medication, we build alternate systems, you know, we as humans, many humans, we're trying to kind of fix around the problem, but still they speak and they just keep speaking louder and they're notifying us of a system change but not the one we want. And the other last point I just wanted to make was that, you know, women and gender non-binary people, you know, and black and brown and South bodies, they're telling us that we're exhausted from servicing things like, you know, false systems like patriarchy and neoliberal capitalism and so when we have these societies that ignore this and, you know, close our ears to things like this massive amount of unpaid care, domestic and communal work of women and how it sits on our bodies, we have to do this breaking and building, we have to decide what it is we leave behind again and what we take forward and how we retain strength for this change work because these systems are deep and long, the unjust systems are just as much as the wonderful, beautiful life-based systems from which we come. So I think I talk a lot about breaking and building these days personally, organizationally, but also in in self-feminist movements, we're hearing it a lot more because people are trying to make sense of this multiple forms of work, you know, and some of them see us doing the kind of breaking work, but maybe they're not seeing all of the, you know, the proposals that we're putting forward and saying there are alternatives that we can, that we've always had that we can draw from and that we can reconfigure. So we're trying to recover from patriarchy, from imperialism, from coloniality and colonialism, from extractivism, from war and cruelty, even here in the Pacific, you know, look at the damage we've done through nuclear power and nuclear weapons and patriarch has just manifested in so many kinds. So we have to recuperate our relationships to each other and to the earth. I think just for now I'll stay in that. So I think it's really important that we have to think about the situation of climate crisis, of environmental crisis and of the loss of biodiversity that we're living. That is to say that the environment should be something that we have to focus on, as children, as citizens, and mainly because of that, but also something that inspired me to do and to do the life that I'm living today. So I think that it was also about living and growing for the last two years in a beautiful environment, in a beautiful territory, surrounded by quimbrans, surrounded by mountains, surrounded by birds, surrounded by ducks, swans, chickens, like no. And I think that being in that environment is something that inspires you, that hooks you in love with that, in that territory. Because if you had lived in a city, as a non-current, with visual contamination, with auditory contamination, like the capital of Colombia Bogota, it would have been different. I was born in Bogota, but I live in Villeta. Colombia, in general, is a territory of beautiful land because we are the second most beautiful country in the world. And that has been to take the life that I have. Thank you so much Francisco, much appreciated. Now, you know, just in the context of everything that we've heard about, like Francisco was just talking about how important it is in order for us to know who we are, we need to know where we come from and the lands to which we belong. And also, Ariel, you talked about how we need to be in conversation with the natural world, to not be extractive. You know, Lin, you spoke about so many things, including this idea of listening differently, this shared truths around how health bodies are exhausted, and how the work really is right now, the breaking and the building, right? The this and the that, the both and the end. And in the context of recovering from the climate crisis and the health crisis, what does that look like for you? You know, it seems to me, I mean, just to talk a little about this, it seems to me that what we're recovering from is clear. You know, that there's a lot that we have to kind of recover from, but also recuperate and reinvigorate. And one of the quick things that I just wanted to say is that, you know, for many of us women from the economic south, particularly in indigenous women and migrant women and many others who've really experienced, you know, a lot of the pain and conflict and marginalization from patriarchy and capitalism and heteronormativity, one of the things is not just going back to practices that actually might also have patriarchy in their core. So for me, it's about, you know, we have these stories in our narratives about women being buried under sacred houses when their male partners died. Okay, I'm not going back to that future. I'm carrying a past, you know, where people were taken as slaves by other communities or an old kind of patriarchal warrior culture. So that ability to do that breaking and building of our own stories itself, you know, of where we come from and what we want to take forward is really, really important. And it's an empowering set of work, but it can get caught and captured in our kind of noise that we have today. So one of the things I think that some of us as self feminists are trying to do is to say, this work that we're doing right now about liberation on all territories is about this, about material and structural change, because it's actually the same work. It's different parts of that work. But I think that we have to talk about these bodies in which we carry everything, you know, ourselves and our people and the ancestors and where we come from, and where we're going, you know, I have a three year old daughter. So I've been thinking a lot about summoning her from 30 years from now, you know, and her saying to me, you know, what is this work you've been doing? And I think that we have to protect our bodies with section reproductive health and right, for instance, we have to know about sexuality, we have to have the essentials of food and water and shelter and sanitation, you know, those things that really have a material value. And we talk about them like abstracts, you know, what kind of society do we want to be in? What do we call? What really if you if you open up a word that we use a lot like social protection? What does that look like to protect each other? You know, we Martin Luther King and others have talked about beloved community. What does that look like when it's made manifest? Because there's a lot of bodies that, you know, suffer indignities and violence. And, you know, here we have two and three women in the Pacific who experience gender based violence. So what does that look like to be liberated from that? How do we share power and knowledge and a society and a world in much more just ways? What about people with disabilities? In Fiji, we have, you know, so many more NCDs, noncommunicable diseases. And I think about the fact that we don't even show people with lost limbs in our data systems. We don't even show LGBTQI people in our, you know, in our statistics. So we have to think all of these systems like states that we've created, they're artificial. And we're now living as if they have always been there and, you know, and that they serve everybody, but they really don't. So we have to think what comes next. What does something beautiful and different and just look like? So that's what I want to do. A recovery for me is from all of that, not just from, you know, COVID-19, which is just the latest manifestation of many other things prior. I think this is important because the, just because the recovery is fair, not only is it transversal to the environment, to the social, to the inequalities, to gender causes, to the indigenous knowledge, as my colleague Panelista has already mentioned, but it's also transversal to many other things, to politics. We need a fair recovery in politics, in the political participation of the young people and the children, to the citizenship, to the social spaces, to the economy too, right? And of course, a fair recovery, and I would say that it's also very important with the environment, because during the pandemic many people said that in reality the environment improved, but relatively it improved, among other things, because from our homes we contaminate and contaminate with tons and tons of plastic, so that's why I think that in itself we have a fair and transversal recovery, that's why it's important, because the fair recovery is not based on a single issue, it's based on many issues that, as they said before, are extremely important to each one, they are key, and they fit. Without one, let's say that the headbreak is disarmed, and if there is no point, the headbreak is disarmed. I think that's really, you made some really, really important points around a lot of times, particularly when we speak of indigenous peoples and relationships to land and, you know, restoring indigenous self-governance and all of these beautiful things, that we get stuck in this idea that we're returning to something of like, you know, 500 years ago, and that indigenous peoples have just become static, that they were that, and they want to just return to that, as if we have not lived through the last, you know, 500 plus years of colonization, but the reality is that colonization had lots of implications on our people, and there were just like peoples of the world, and species of the world, evolution is a natural component of life on this planet, and our cultures are not static, and we evolve and we change over time, and it's really critical to understand that we're not, we're not advocating for the return of something that was, but we are advocating for the implementation and the respect and the reverence of the value systems that existed for millennia prior to the imposition of colonization, which led to this great imbalance. Through the work that I have done through Indigenous Climate Action and the organization that I helped found, we have been speaking with communities around climate change, and of course recovery is a part of this, and one of the most tangible things that has come from almost any community, whether it's the Northern community, Southern community, Cree, Edenne, Lakota, whatever community, when we get down to the bare bones of like, what is climate change? Like, what does it mean to our communities? The common thread is that they say, we are out of balance. We are out of balance with each other. We are out of balance with our relationships with the land. We are out of balance spiritually, mentally, physically, and emotionally, and when we are out of balance, there is a response from Mother Earth, from the planet, and climate change, the pandemics are a result of this imbalance that we have entered into, and this imbalance, like the other really tangible, beautiful thing that has come out of all of these community engagements is that they have said that when you ask them, when did climate change start for you? You get these elders and they'll sit there for a long time and they'll think and they'll go, well, climate change started for us when the white man came. It started on colonization. The climate of our culture changed, that imbalance began at the set of colonization. Colonization caused climate change, colonization of the lands, colonizations of our minds, colonizations of our value systems, of our governance, of our economies, of our gender systems, of all of those things, our religions, our spirituality, and when we are talking about recovery, recovery from COVID, recovery from climate crisis, the climate crisis requires a rebalance, a rebalance of masculine, feminine, non-binary, a rebalance of our relationships with the natural world. That is the critical component, but in the Western ideologies and structures, we get stuck on like data sets that don't include the diversity of not just humans, but the diversity of species, and they are stuck within these sort of walls of Eurocentric, Western scientific data collection, and the solutions get stuck within those structures as well, and they're confined. So we search for solutions within the structure that created the challenges that we are faced in, and indigenous cosmologies, value systems, governance, ideologies, all of those things tend to be outside of that scope and have been demonized and devalued and pushed out of those systems, and we are advocating for those to be included and utilized as foundational systems to be put forward to look at how there was harmonization prior to colonization and how those cultures have evolved and changed over time because I don't want to go back to some of those patriarchal value systems, but I do want to have those tenets of those values of relationship, of all my relations, of kaitale denesocene, what it means to be in relationship with the land and all of our relations, and those are the value systems that when we talk about what are we recovering from, what are we recovering to, a future that isn't confined to Western Eurocentric ideologies and data collection, and one that imagines a future with everything and everyone in it. What are the words that you would offer up to your future selves to ground them in the world that you are visioning right now? One of the things that I really hope for ourselves is that what I'm trying to kind of talk about and think about a lot more now in all kinds of spaces is trying to think less about palatability because I think a lot of us kind of, we're very cautious about the way that we speak or we provide input, and I think it's related to what Ariel talks about. We are living in the current moment and the current moment is full of all kinds of dangers, including co-option, including these ideas like pluralism and assimilation, and us trying to, we always talk as feminists about living in multiple realities, that we're both here but we're beyond, and I really love that because it's another emancipatory thing, it's a freeing kind of idea that I'm here, yes, and I'm working in a system that really is sometimes filling me with fear. It also is a time when though I feel a real revolutionary spirit that's pushing us forward but that's because we've done so much damage and I just sent out a tweet yesterday. I was looking at the commission on the status of women and I want to give this as an example. Here is a 26-year and that's a tiny amount of time but it's a substantive amount for us who've been working for the revolution and working for justice for all bodies including women and girls and in being violence. I look at that and I think there's a philosopher right now who's been talking about how are feminists doing this? How are we doing this revolution? Because you look at it only 120 years ago and here we are, we have the vote and we're working through all kinds of issues and are we anywhere near where we need to be? No, but how incredible that that work goes on and a lot of it is about this below ground and above groundwork and the ability to work with other people who are really diverse from ourselves and to think through things like constituency and to talk about both tactics and strategy and then to place all of that within a basket of care, within a basket of beloved community and I think there are many kinds of people around the world who are doing this beautiful set of work building something both old and new in the process of becoming and one of the things is I think I'm going to be louder and more unapologetic this year. I've already started that way because you know time is short and the damage is really deep and I'm thinking a lot about you know my daughter and my niece and others and there's a local poet here Damari who I love you might know her fented from La Tocque she said she wants to be the most loving dragon there is because she's frightened sometimes that we're in such strong voice and we forget that we're also magic you know that we're also wonderful and loving and I think we have to do that care work for each other I'm going to rest a lot more but I'm also going to work harder so that's some of the things that I'm trying to do and the last thing I want to say is I'm going to give nothing to patriarchy I've decided you know for me that means I'm not interested in protecting friends peers acquaintances you know so-called formal leaders who just you know they're so heavily invested in these current systems and and it's really hard for many of them to move and I just you know in our community there's a lot of us who kind of tiptoe around this and we're so polite you know this I don't know there's a word for it civility politics right and and I think it's not about kind of you know us pointing fingers at others it's about saying you are you are responsible to every living part of this planet and and that means you are accountable to all of us right so if you get mad be mad because you're not doing what you need to do all of us need to do exactly what we can you know it's not for any of us to affirm or excuse others it's about saying we all have our work to change this and and you know this living planet it requires us to be part of that to to be things that build life and that help life to flourish and and not to close it down in so so many ways we find these humans to do so I think that's what I'm trying to do is think that way for for myself my daughter in my community and so I get it a lot claro y aquí tener mucho de su cuenta si todos colaboramos cada uno portando su granito de arena como esa frase tan famosa cada uno con su activismo con su pasión con su ciudadanía con con eso que hacen con su profesión creo que vamos a tener un futuro donde todos podamos realmente todos no sólo hablo del de la especie más hablo todos en general todos los seres vivos los animales los ecosistemas donde podamos convivir en paz donde podamos vivir en paz siempre se habla de la paz entre nosotros como humanos de la paz entre países y naciones cierto para evitar las grandes guerras como ya lo vimos en un pasado pero más allá de eso también debemos digamos tener paz con con con el ambiente y con los demás seres que también sufren pues por nuestro maltrato hacía es un mensaje claro yo creo que cada acción como lo decía es fundamental desde lo más pequeño hasta lo más grande todo tiene una consecuencia en sí y la consecuencia puede ser negativa o positiva y espero que las consecuencias de nuestras acciones sean positivas sean para amar y adaptara el cambio climático y el calentamiento global para poder reducir esa tasa de migración para poder basarnos en conocimientos ancestrales para poder también tener una vida digna darle una vida y a los ciudadanos no para todo esto eso es fundamental eso hace parte de lo que ya antes hablábamos como la recuperación justa entonces vida digna no se les olvide eso para todos entonces pues así el mensaje que les quiero dar hoy este que por supuesto puedan seguir adelante con sus sueños sus proyectos con con lo que hacen pero también nunca olviden que desde lo que hacemos podemos aportar al ambiente si gana delante siempre con perseverancia con fuerza y constancia pero obviamente aportemos al ambiente desde lo que hacemos gracias i i think thinking of generations ahead and taking those risks now is probably like that's what we've needed to be doing for a long time and i do think that we have a history of people that have done that and i think it's really important to acknowledge that there have been so many before us that have done these things that have laid the foundations for us to be where we are i come from a family of of land protectors and you know my my life story i make jokes when people ask me where did how did i start get in get into this work and i always say i was born into it and it and i it's it's a joke but it's real because the year that i was born my family was forcibly removed from our territory via gunpoint from arm security of a company that um illegally or shadily uh like through sort of some really coercive and intimidating means got access to our lands and we're wanting to exploit it for uranium development and from that point on i mean even before that my parents were living there to occupy the land to prevent the development of uranium exploration and development and so my whole life has been about utilizing our knowledge systems our rights uh we come i come from a matriarchal community where the women are the the decided factors like we have a lot of men that have taken these roles of leadership at the front but you talk to any man in our community they say i'm not actually the decision maker it is my wife and the women in the community that make the decisions but colonization propped these men up and so i think about what does this mean for future generations and i also have children my children are older my daughter is actually she just turned 22 yesterday and my son is 10 and um thinking about the this world that we're leaving for these my children my daughter is studying education and with a with a minor in indigenous studies and my son is just 10 so he's just 10 but uh they are already aware of the imbalances these these imbalances not just of the ghgs in the atmosphere or the the pandemic but of these the patriarchal colonial systems white supremacy and they have this in their purview they understand it as they walk through the world that this is part of the struggles that we have in addressing and restoring the imbalances that that have come from the generations before them and they also recognize the work that my parents did and my grandparents did because my even my grandparents fought the huts and bay company from over trapping and hunting in our territories and we have this strong history of continually advocating for the lands and my mom would never have called herself a feminist but she is a feminist and i don't think any of the women in my family would call themselves that but they are feminists from an indigenous perspective and value system and i have been studying in a part of a cohort of indigenous feminist feminisms and it's important that we include these in the future that we're thinking of but that we root these things and where did we learn these values from and these values come from the land they come from the strength and the beauty of the river systems of the animals of the plants and the medicines and the the teachings of the skies and the stars and the moon and the sun and the air and our ability to be in relationship with those those elements is an important just as critical as an important as the cognitive ability to to acknowledge and point out and structurally fight those systems how do we simultaneously nurture our relationships with the land as we advocate for the dismantling of the structures that that lent to those disconnections and i think it's just as important that i take my son out to to i know some people might not like about catch frogs or see salamanders or or go hunting or go fishing pick medicines it's just as important but i teach him that as much as i teach him about smashing the patriarchy and decolonization and these are really really critical components to the future that we're leaving for future generations and that this isn't about power over this isn't about power over men power over you know colonial systems or structures this is about rebalancing and that is the most critical lesson that i teach my children all the time we have to have balance we have two two ears and one mouth for a reason so that we can listen twice as much as we speak and that means listening to the land and listening to our relations this conversation in in and of itself is really good medicine i'm grateful for each of you i'm grateful for your stories your truths your connectedness to the natural world and all the wisdom and the baskets of care right that you shape and bring to this way thank you for having this conversation with me so global just recovery gathering