 Okay, Joey, so tell me what we've done today and what has been the purpose of the two different forms of activism we've taken apart in. Okay, so the different forms of activism we've taken apart in today are both peaceful forms of activism, especially the save movement. It's a love-based approach and we are just there to see the animals. The idea behind it is we're there to bear witness and today, these days, we have technology like iPhones. We can bring the photos of these animals' faces out to the public and we can say, these animals are innocent beings. They obviously don't want to go into a slaughterhouse and we can say, this is where your food comes from. We get people to connect with the animals. Also, as an activist, it helps you realize that these are the animals you're fighting for and speaking for. And then you take the conviction that you get from doing bearing witness and you come to outreach, AV, and we educate the public as to why animals have moral value and why we can eat plant-based alternatives, which are healthier so it's unnecessary to put them into slaughterhouses. I mean, some days you'll wait hours to get a van that comes past to pay tribute to the animals before they go in. What do you feel like you achieve with that and why does it keep you coming out day in and day out? I think it gives you perspective doing this. You realize that you're not the one who's suffering, the animals are. So to be out there for a couple of hours is nothing compared to what the animals are going through or about to go through inside that slaughterhouse. What we gain is a lot because we are spreading the message out there. I mean, it's pretty hard to get 50,000 people out to the front of a slaughterhouse to see what's going on with the animals, but we have our phones, we have our Facebook accounts and we've all got about 1,000 people on our Facebook, 50 people at a slaughterhouse and we can spread it like that. And this is how we curve animal consumption and hopefully phase out these industries. What do you think to those people that say the way you behave is almost like an extremist? An extremist. I would say as vegans we want peace, okay? Now, UK is already a country who cares about animals, okay? People in this country care about animals. We just live in alignment with that. Now, people might say they might honestly believe, and I believe people are good people that they truly do care about animals, but their actions don't reflect that. When they buy a chicken breast, that flesh was torn off of an animal who didn't want to die. So we can't love animals while we're consuming their flesh or paying for them to go into a slaughterhouse. And all we're doing is politely educating people on connecting these dots. So in your YouTube videos, sometimes you've had quite confrontational conversations with people that work in avatars. Do you feel that you're maybe blaming the wrong people there? Blaming the wrong people? Okay, so I don't place blame on slaughterhouse workers and I've said that to them. I said slaughterhouse workers are a product of a sick society who want to consume animal flesh. Now, as consumers, we have to understand that we're making slaughterhouse workers work in horrific conditions. In a slaughterhouse, it smells like blood and feces and fear, okay? Now they don't wake up in the morning and say, oh, I want to kill animals all day. That'll be a perfect job. Sometimes it's the only job they can get, or sometimes they're pushed into it, and it's only because of society. Now, do they have responsibility for stabbing animals in the throat? Yeah, they do. But do the consumers have even more so of a responsibility? Yeah, they do. So you can't just point the finger at slaughterhouse workers, and the reason that we're having sometimes they're getting aggressive is because I'm challenging their belief systems. I'm challenging people's belief systems, deeply ingrained belief systems, okay? Of course, people are going to be a little bit uncomfortable about that. They've been taught eating animals is the way for their whole lives. They think they love animals. They're consuming their flesh. I'm telling them that animals have moral value. It's got to rustle up some emotions. But I'll always remain polite to them, okay? I understand it's not any of the consumer's fault that they've been programmed to believe that we need to eat animals for protein. It's not their fault. I used to eat animals four years ago. So I understand all of this, and I've interwoven that into my advocacy. So today, for example, some of the activists actually trespassed on the avatar property. Do you sometimes think that the movement is pushing limits that shouldn't be pushed? I think desperate times, sometimes things like this happen. Okay, that's not my personal way of advocating the message, but we have to understand that what's going on in there is extreme. What's happening to these animals is extreme. If there were dogs in there, people's pet dogs that they care about, they'd be helping us. The public would be helping us stop those trucks. The public would be trespassing too. Now, am I saying we should be breaking the law to help animals? No, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that when we weigh up what's actually happening to those animals in there, I think that they have a pretty solid reason for being upset. It's interesting that you choose to call them slaughterhouses rather than abattoirs, which is the term many people use here in the UK. What is their thought process behind that? Abattoir is like a fancy French name, and we like to use euphemisms. We like to call flesh meat. We like to call cow flesh, beef. So we use these euphemisms, okay? And this is what tricks us. This is what hypnotizes us. That is a place of slaughter that we're murdering animals against their will. If you don't like the word murder, we're killing animals against their will in a place that is legal. This is legal. So, yeah, of course it's a slaughterhouse. I mean, my words don't even do what the animals go through justice. I mean, we know that many people that work in abattoirs are low paid, often migrant workers here in the UK. Do you think really kind of insinuating that they're inhumane helps anything? Are the people that work in there inhumane? I think the people that work in there are conditioned to violence. Was that their choice? No. This is culture. This is society is violent. They're a product of a violent society. And they didn't choose to work in there. That wasn't their first choice when they were in school. I want to kill animals all day. It's a horrible place in there. And this is human rights violation. And an animal rights violation. I don't want them working in there. I'd rather them picking strawberries or working in some plant-based milk factory helping us create vegan products, which are ethical. They don't cause post-traumatic stress disorder. They have to take drugs to work in these places because it's so horrible in there. The rates of domestic violence in regions that have slaughterhouses slaughterhouse workers are higher. So it's conditioning them to violence. If you're kicking cows around all day, stabbing pigs to death, slapping animals around all day, you think you're not going to, you know, it's not a fast step to hit a human, is it? I mean here in the UK they have some of the kind of highest welfare standards for animals. Does it really feel fair to be targeting? The UK's high welfare standards. I'll tell you something about high welfare standards in the UK. And in Australia, RSPCA approve and monitor gas chambers where they lower pigs in a dungeon, in a cage, down into gas. And they thrash around in there and scream for their lives and suffocate in CO2 gas. The gas reacts with mucous membranes inside their body and they cause something called carbonic acid. And they thrash and suffocate in their last moments. It's horrible. Now this is RSPCA approve. So I mean we've seen footage of activists standing in supermarkets blocking kind of families and kids from getting to the meetiles. It does kind of all feel a little bit of a step too far sometimes. A step too far. If they'd seen what was happening to these animals in the slaughterhouse they'd probably be on our side. To politely educate the public is not as extreme as what's happening to animals in slaughterhouses. So you have been to a kosher source house and actually confronted rabbis there asking if do they feel what they're doing is religious. I mean some people could take that as quite offensive and almost maybe targeting a particular religion for that reason. No, no, see I don't target any particular religion or any particular person who slaughters animals. I think it's all bad across the board. Now people who justify killing animals in the name of God are questioned. I say do you think God really wants this? Because I don't. I don't think God wants that. And I ask them do you think a slaughterhouse is a place of God? Now if God created your children which they believe God created their children and you showed your children a slaughterhouse and they felt sick why would God create children to be scared of their own food? These are the questions I ask religious people. I've got nothing against their religion but when you use your religion to justify an immoral act like abusing human beings or killing innocent animals then I step in and ask people. Do you feel like that's your place to question such a person? Okay, so I'm defending animals. I'm speaking for animals. So yes, it is my place. These animals can't speak for themselves. I don't care what religion you are, what you look like. I'm not in it about that. I'm in it to defend animals, to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. Okay, if I don't, who's gonna? People are just gonna go walk all over animals and animals can't voice their suffering, can they? They can't. So you've compared the animal rights movement to me. You've likened it to the slave trade and applied in South Africa. Talk me through the thought process there because that feels quite extreme. Okay, so baseless discrimination is what allowed the transatlantic slave trade to happen. Baseless discrimination, they are different to us. So we use that baseless discrimination to justify immoral treatment in the same way that we discriminate against different species of animals. Okay, which is baseless discrimination. We're saying pigs, cows, chickens and fish look differently to us. They're not my pet dog. So it's okay to treat them as objects, as products. We're talking about sentient beings. Am I saying a pig is the same as a human being? No. I'm saying that the baseless discrimination is what's the same. Speciesism is where we discriminate against animals based on their species. So dogs we care for. Inherently, dogs and pigs are the same. But we condemn pigs to gas chambers. Now, inherently, white people, black people, Asian people are the same. So why should we treat each other differently based on some superficial difference? So this is what I'm saying. Animals are not free. Are they? So if they're not free and they're a sentient being who values freedom, liberty just like us, what are they? They're a slave. We're exploiting innocent beings for their body. Human beings can voice their suffering. They've got a chance to escape. Animals have no chance. They are vulnerable. They cannot speak up for themselves. They cannot form and mobilize as activists and form a coalition against the dairy industry. That's what we're here for. We can speak for them. And it might make people uncomfortable to be speaking up for animals. But we're not here to make people comfortable. I mean, I can be polite. I can be polite, but I'm not going to betray the animals. If abolitionists didn't speak up for what happened back then with slaves, it would have never been abolished. And I'm sure it made some slave owners a little bit angry to not have their slaves picking their cotton for them. But it's not about the slave owners. In the same way, it's not about the animal farmers. Now they can move into more ethical industries. There will be a demand for vegan products. And the farmers, we don't want farmers out of a job. We want them to change the job. We want their job not to involve, directly involve a victim. I'm pretty sure farmers don't see themselves as slave drivers. And obviously it's a huge source of income in the UK. What do you say to those farmers that say, this movement is trying to put us out of a job. This is our livelihood. This is how we live. Now the reason farmers don't see themselves as slave owners is because they don't see animals as victims. We victimized animals to the degree that they're not even considered victims. As for there being money in owning animals and objectifying and exploiting them and killing them, money should not, we should not value money over life. Okay, this is the root of all that's wrong with the world. Farmers aren't going to be out of a job when they move into vegan products. There's going to be a massive demand. And there is a massive demand for plant-based milk alternatives. Meat-free alternatives have gone up 987% in the UK alone. Just last year, okay. So there's going to be room for plant farming moving into other industries. I mean, we have to think of it from the victim's perspective, not from the oppressor's perspective, which is human beings, okay. What do you think to farmers saying that they're frightened by the presence of you guys on their property or trespassing or, you know, kind of insinuating that what they are doing is inhumane? I think they might be a little bit nervous because the conditions on their farms they know how bad they are. Free-range farms, I've seen them. And when activists go in there and bring footage out and show it to the public, you know, they look guilty, don't they? And this is what I'm talking about. This isn't about the farmers feeling a certain way. There's beings in there who are being persecuted sent on slaughterhouses, trucks and killed, okay. What role do you think young people play in all this and how much of an explosion in this movement, have you seen? Well, the thing is with young people, they are less conditioned. So they are less indoctrinated to society. They're more free thinkers, okay. The longer that you've been in this society, the more heavily conditioned you are to it. They want to make a change. They want to do something good in the world. And the best thing you can do is change yourself. If you want to change the world, you change yourself. Your lifestyle habits and the youth are the future, aren't they? They really are. So in the same way we as a society collectively agree that women deserve rights, black people deserve rights, people with a mental disability deserve rights. In the same way now, this movement believes that animals deserve the same rights. Now, do they deserve the right to drive a car? No. We're just basically asking for fundamental rights of freedom and liberty. The right to walk around and not be harmed or exploited or viewed out as a product. And this is what this movement's about. The exponential growth of the movement is the slow it cannot be measured. It's growing faster and faster by the year. There's something called a snowball effect where something happens painfully slow and what we're seeing is it picking up and it's starting to explode. The last two years activism has exploded all over the world. Vegans everywhere are standing up. People are going vegan en masse. Plant-based milk industries are raking in the money. Dairy is going down, which is good. Dairy farmers can find some soybeans to farm and leave the cows alone. Do you feel like you've got a kind of property that you need to fulfill? Do you feel like there's an aim that you won't rest en masse you've achieved? Well, I've always had a desire to speak for animals when I realised I wanted to help someone. I wanted to give back and I felt like the animals needed it the most because we can't even collectively agree that a pig has moral value. Now, what's that pig supposed to do when no one even cares about them? This is what fuels my fire. I want people to understand that that pig does not deserve for one second what we do to them. What is the end goal of all this? What type of world would you like to see us live in? I don't want to see a world where animals are treated nicely before they are savagely killed. I want to see a world where animals are free and liberated. That's the world I want to see.