 Welcome to Toffy TV, it's the debate, it's the second part of the David Moyes era at Gunnorsen Park. It's tough on this, just looking at all the players, but we ended up last week end of the 2006-2007 season, this is the 2007-2008 season that we started, of course. Let's just talk about Moyes' second half of his reign at heaven. I suppose it was all about it was all about moving the team on, finding consistency, tinkering with the team to get the very, very best out of them. I think by this time now he is starting to have his own team, getting rid of players or simply losing players, but waiting is. Everyone in this team now is essentially a Moyes player, fit into the Moyes mould and it was all about moving that on. Who can we get to go into these positions that's going to move the team on? Yeah, he'd come in and started his own cycle, hadn't he? The first one was how can he make the current players better, get the shape and stuff, that's some good finish. I mean, when you think we finished his third season in fourth place, it's incredible, really when you think of that. But yeah, the team had developed and then this was, I suppose, the second five-year plan wasn't it? That his first almost and this was, can we get any closer in? We were just starting to see a consistency really in what he wanted to do and how close could we break into the sky four and could we possibly win a trophy, could we challenge for a trophy and push on a little bit because we hadn't really had cup runs and such under him at this stage so far. We'd obviously had that really good season when we finished fourth, we didn't follow it up with anything the other mid table but this bit now we started cementing our places of team and spending more time there. We were then we'd love to be now, you know, bobbing around fifth, sixth, push trying to push on trying to find what was needed to kick on and it's funny because when you talk, when everyone talks now and they're like oh that's the sixth or this is the fourth or you know, you only have to see how much movement there was, you know, Man City were nowhere near the party then, Spades were, you know, finishing in the, you know, the bottom half of the table. There really was, you know, a chance and it was all about grafting onto the team. It was all about, you know, the likes of Weir and the likes of Stubbs being replaced by better players. Tim Howard had come in in gold. It was about fine, it was about fine replacements for the likes of Nuno Valente and, you know, in midfield, the strikers. It really was about just adding better players and seeing, and seeing if those players could fit into David Moyers' way of playing. Or even if they didn't, being enough of an X factor where you could have maybe nine players who were willing to, to all fall in, which they did with the likes of Arterton and Kailu. We mentioned last week, Lee O'Norgeman plays like Tony Ibitz, whether you love them or you didn't like him, just having those players who, who would be lying. You could be lying, would give you everything and hope that those extra little touches would. The thing about people like Tony Ibitz is Moyers knew he didn't really have it after replaced Tony Ibitz, or if he did after replacing me, it would be like a, that would be like, if you're going to go on by a boss right back, that would be maybe a luxury too far. But other players, we were, we were lucky, but there's some of the, some of the gems he found. I mean, just coming into this season now, the players that we brought in, the top players. I mean, this was, this was incredible, some of it. Phil Jagielker came in on the 4th of July. Pina came in on the 24th of July from brush your dormant on loan. Leighton Bains came in the 6th of August from Wigan. Y Cubu came in on the 29th of August. Graveson came in on loan from Celtic. Dan Gosling came in. Then you've got players like McFadden leaving the club, you know, trying to, trying to move players on. Manny, Manny Fernandez coming in in the January. Like real, real talent. The absolute real, real talent. You know, that, that made the team better. You know, you know, your Jags, you know, still here, still here 11 years later, still here, you know, Bains, 11 years later, still here, still putting in consistent good, good performances. You know, Y Cubu, adding that little something that we'd never really had on the mwys. I haven't really had that ever for a long time. You know, and people, even like Graveson, just bolstering the squad with people like Graveson. Yeah. You know, going into the next summer, I mean, Pina signed permanently. Andy Johnson coming in 6th of May. He came in. Sorry. That's when Andy Johnson left, sorry, wasn't it, to go to Fulham, 11 left? He played at your Cubu. He'd come in here before. Sorry, yeah, he'd come in here before. He'd got it at Johnson. Johnson going, Johnson going. Stoves going, Carsley going. So we're starting to see that Tane over there. Andy Johnson would be in a player, you know, who was willing to, who had the legs, but with your Cubu, sorry, they were giving sort of a little bit more. A player who had, who almost had an amalgamation of, of all those players. Well, I wouldn't do the running all day for you, but because of his whole up play, you could give him it and get the team up the pitch. So, and also knew where the back of the net was. Well, in that, in that, particularly that 780s, and that haven't been said, you know, you'd have Johnson, your Cubu, up front. Yeah. Well, Johnson had played wide, and you'd have Vaughan, and to be coming off the bench, there was four in the European run. In the European run. Well, even in league games, I remember, we were playing in the round three, Vaughan, one of the games, and he took your Cubu and Johnson off and put Vaughan and, and he to be on it. It was like, yeah, you've just had them to contend with the 75 minutes and I got these two, we were going to run everywhere. And it was, you know, it was a real thing. The changing of the guard wasn't it? Like, it was a real changing of the guard, but it was also, I think it was also, like we mentioned, it was also mwys playing about and finding out what worked. You know, that overact, I mean, that was, that scene was probably one of the best seasons in sort of the mud nearer, I can remember. It was, you know, going to, you know, having those options off the bench, having, having, you know, as you just said, if those weren't working, being, being James Vaughan on, being, being, and he to be on something different. Power and backing in and just having the, having, I mean, feel of Pina, Kale, Arteta, Osmond, at times, Carsley, later in the season. Yeah. Carsley sitting in behind or, you know, and we were quite close to that soft foe. Yeah. That was the thing is that, you know, that season, 7-8, we win 11-own games, scored 34, conceded 17 arrow, and away from home, we won 8 away games, scored 21 conceded 16, you know. So, my end of the season on 65 points, which is four more points done, we got when we finished in the soft foe. I don't know, like, you know, we finished 11 points behind Liverpool, we were fourth, but five out of the villa, you know, when we were such a good, that season, just such a good shot. We had digs of Lescott in there. Obviously, he was coming from Wolsey before, and it was a basis of a team, and you had Lescott playing, could play, was playing left back, Bange was on the bench, he was up, he was a real, you know, like a proper, proper squad of players, you know, with back-up, especially with that European run, and it was, I mean, you know, what a noise it is, it was real evident that, because we had that team, and then the following season, you want to kick on again, and we're bringing in the likes of, like, when we brought Fellain here, but then we're having to play, we brought like, but obviously we brought Fellain here later, but we brought players in, like Castileo, Jachobson, you know what I mean, like, like real, real, real, just average, average players, and then we went on, obviously we brought Fellain here on the window, we brought Joe in, and obviously Nuno, at the end of that year, Valente went and Van der Maider, and when we got, after we got to the Cofano, but it was that summer, it was like, you wanted to build on it, but you couldn't build on it because, so every time, we just wanted to go full, it was like, obviously that summer, those couple of summers with AJ, and Beattie, and Jakuba, and those kind of players, that had been built on the extra funds, the extra funds that may have been provided by other people, other people that owned high street shops, maybe, so that, and that dried it up, dried up, there was no way to go, and we couldn't build on that, and that was the great, the great sadness was that, that was the thing, wasn't it? It was like, every time we got to that stage where you're like, we just need, we kept on building on top of what we've got, and then that season was almost the peak for Moise, in terms of what he had done. All eight or nine, all seven, eight. Seven, eight. For me, that was the peak where it was like, can we go any further? Even with that way, those couple of seasons were almost a peak, it was like, where do we go, do you know what I mean? It kept on building, and building, and building, and building, it was just on the edges of Champions League qualification, and obviously we got to the semifinal, and we got to the final, sorry, in 2009, and it was that, you know, it was like, it was, it was about replay, we brought Louis Sahara and people like that, and it was about, can we, can we go that extra little bit, but there was no money, there was no money to buy those players, and then it was, then it was a case of having to sell, you know, sell a player, I mean, you know, for all, for as much as we didn't want to sell Lescott, we sell Lescott, but then off the back of selling Lescott, we've been heiting him, we've been dissing him, we've been billioletting off, and really in theory, only one of those players really worked, lot of team. Oh eight, so seven, oh eight, seven, eight, oh seven, oh eight, we finished fifth, oh eight, oh nine, we finished fifth again, you know, we only want eight own games, we're going to win 11 this season, we've won 10 at the moment, we could win 11, we've won 10, but we won eight that year, but we won nine away games, nine away games, so we finished nine points behind Champions League, so 11 the year before, nine this year, so we're closing that gap, you know, you think we're the better home record, you know, we won 11 home games the year before, eight home in sixth draws, that was what done us in, you know, we actually lost nine games, we lost 11 the year before, so we end up nine points off the Champions League places, and we get to an FA Cup final, so that's summer 2009, we've been close to getting in the Champions League, we've been close to winning the FA Cup, you know, and you look at it and go. To think about, I mean, as I say, I mean, we signed Pina on, sorry, 22nd of April 2008, that was only signed permanently, then we lost AJ, Stubbs, Vessels, Carzly, so I mean, look at that though, Stubbs, Johnson Stubbs, Carzly, I mean, oh like two of them are senior players, but you know, leaders in the squad, and then we're bringing, in 2008, Jacobson, Castileo, we're bringing, then we're bringing to Haar, Nash, Fellaini, we brought in Joe in the February, following summer, Valenti goes, Van der Maide, Jacobson, we're bringing, Garbit, Mustafi, Anton Peterlin, Cody Arnu, Cody, good lad Cody, then Jolene Lescott goes, so you've lost, you've brought nobody in, you're losing Lescott, and then on Deadline, around Deadline Day, obviously we brought in Billy Eletton off this stand on height and get, right? Then we bring in Lucas Neal, he was very good, then we brought Landon Donovan in, in the January, then Lucas Neal gets off, then we bring Cendros in, so you can see, this is like, this is sort of almost like the start of the decline, because the players that we, the players almost of the squad, that we're keeping the squad ticking over, we're starting to lose them, we're losing the quality, it's getting less and less because of money, so then we're bringing in Jermaine Beckford, Jawsilver, Maggie Gay, Jan Mucher, Pina goes to space, Eric Dyer goes back to sport and Lisbon, Cymcom, sorry, Vellios comes in, Vaughan Leaves, Dyer goes back to sport and Lisbon, Yobau, Yobau goes to Fenebachai, Beckford Leaves, Ykubu Leaves, Artheta goes to Arsenal, so now we're in August 2011, Strach Drenthe, Marcus Hanaman, George Green, McFadden, McFadden, McFadden cwmbach, Donovan comes in the January, in the December January, Mustafa Leaves, then Darren Gibson comes in, Billy Eletton off Leaves, Sa Ha Leaves, Jellevich comes back, it comes in, Pina comes back, and it's just, just listen to the names, we're just not really bringing in any Pina obviously, and give some as a good start, give some as okay, Jellevich was good for the season, but there's just, it's just, there's no quality, Naishmiff comes, but Cale goes, no, but I'm just saying you're not replacing players that you could, that you've been trusted with, Yobau Leaves permanently, Jack Robber Leaves, Morales comes in, Ovedo comes in, Hittlesburg comes in, had come in and then Leaves, and John Stones is the last person January 231, 2013, but what you can see from almost 2009 onwards is that squad is just getting, just getting decline and decline, and this, this, I spoke about this before, about where we are, where we, what we had to do this season, and for me it starts then, it starts because previously Morales had been replacing lesser players with better players, but when he got to that 2090s and for me, he started having to replace better players with slightly worse, and it's almost like what you see at like, like Southampton at the moment, or some other, some other clubs, you can't even talk them with like their fullbacks, you can't, the minute you start replacing players with slightly lesser players, it becomes a cycle, and yes, don't get me wrong, there are, there are a few in there that were better, but even players that were senior players, like you're losing, you're getting diminishing returns on those players, you're losing that consistency, so when you're losing on that tether, you're losing on that tether, and you might go well, it wasn't as good as it used to be, but what are you bringing in? You're losing a kale and you're going, what are you bringing in? And it's that, that's for me, is where it started going wrong, and to be fair to Moise, that wasn't really his fault, but it wasn't his fault, it was a financial situation, and I think that's why, that's clearly why the peak, the peak years, that's why we needed to win the 2009 FA Cup, because really that, they were the peak seasons, you know, we were finishing like fifth consistently, and really that was the best he could have ever brought us around that time, if you'd won the FA Cup in 2009, might have kicked on a little bit, it might have been a little bit more investment shown in the club, but unfortunately it never happened. Yeah, I mean we'd had, so we'd had two fifth place finishes, 65 points, 63 points a year later, so 2009, 10, we finished eighth, but we get 61 points, so we're still in the 60, I mean we were, they'll have finished sixth on 64, so we were a way enough there, Liverpool was seventh, had gone from second to seventh or whatever it was, 2011 season was seventh on 54 points, Liverpool sixth on 58 points, 2011-2012 was seventh on 56 points, so our points held, you know, 10 home wins, Chelsea was sixth on 64 points, and then obviously Moise just last season, we finished sixth on 63 points, so back up into the 60s, top and finish fifth on 72. Who won the league, how many points were the league winners away from us in that season? 26, Manu, 89 points, we finished two points ahead of Liverpool, it was seventh, we were sixth when Moise left. What are the, what how many points behind Arsenal behind Man City this season? Yeah, I'll get it right. Arsenal got 57 points, Man City got 93, so 36 points behind them, and we were 26 behind United. It just shows you, doesn't it? It really does show you that. 10 behind Arsenal in fourth place. That shows you, we're 12 home. Those seasons, we were, you know, we were a, we were a decent financial away, and we've said this before, it's not even a case of, we didn't even need, it's clear in the debt, if we didn't have the debt, if we didn't have the debt that we had until very recently, which were always the new round that I know. We'd have been able to do something. For me, we would have, if we'd had the, I think on the Moise, I genuinely believe this. If we'd had the resources of teams, not even above us, teams around us, I think we would have got Champions League two or three more times. I think just some of those seasons, I think, look, I mean, you know, one of those, one of those seasons, you know, is it, we get to the, we finish fifth and we get to the, we get fifth and we, and we get, you know, when we got beat by Frontina, and the, you know what I mean? And they got to the final. You know, you just, there's, got to semi-final, you know, eight of the league up Chelsea, beat us over two legs. The seasons where we, the squad was, it couldn't cope with all that many games, but yet it, it somehow, you know, see what you're forgetting in 09 is the start. Well, the start was poor. We lost to Cuba in November. Yeah. And we lost Ar Teter and it should be in the January. We lost Jag Elker in the eight. Yeah. So we finished fifth, got to an FA Cup final. We didn't have certainly three of them were our backbone. Jag Elker, Ar Teter and the Cuba. And an it should be, would have been a good sub. So we could have gone into the Cup final with all four of them. That's Chelsea games, a different game. It's a different game. It's a completely different game with Jags and with, and Lesclott. People forget how good Jags and Lesclott were at that moment. Oh, but you've talked in a centre forward. You've scored goals. You've talked in a centre midfielder who that season was just tearing it up, Ar Teter. He was unbelievable. It was, he's going to be in the France, in the Spain. It was going to be in his finest team. He's this, he's that, he's the other. They were brilliant and we had three serious injuries that season and we still got to a Cup final, finished fifth. So we were, and that, and we had without playing, we had, we had a team with, with Hibber playing my back, with, with Oldsman. We started that season with Josie Baxter, 16, against Blackburn, got beat three, two, but all. And it was things like that where there's, we were, I always believe even later than that, but that noise was Luke Archer away from winning something. If he'd have had, if Jack would have stayed fit, I think we'd have won something. I think if Lukaku, if Lukaku would have been around with Moise's team from, say, 11 to 13, I think we'd have won something because he had some players there. We had, we had a team, seven, eight, eight, nine. It was just, even 12, 13. And obviously there was the years, like the couple of baron years where we'd never really signed anyone and it was like the website with the clock and all that, where we just didn't do any business for like two years and the squad got stagnant and that must have been hard for them going every day in training, no new faces, same old. If you got injured, you knew how to play. I mean, we're talking, we're talking seasons where like we had no strikers and Kayle had to go up front and, and, and... Velios was our most senior striker. Yeah, it was like we had, we had real tough times and yeah, yeah, this is what's funny where people forget about this, where the club, the team, the players, they just all and fans, we all stuck together and we dug in and there was like a real thing about us. Everyone ate a plane, it's because we were, we were all, I'm in the same direction and all it needed is just, if a machine had come along then and just gone, you know what lads, keep doing what you're doing and I'll back you up and I'll get you. You can understand why, why Moise felt like he needed a new challenge. I'm sure, you know, Man United anyway would have come, but you can understand why, because for four or five years he was just, he was just tain and having to tain, sell one player to bring another two in and it, but unfortunately I think early on there was a time where he was just like well this is, I don't mind this because I'm actually being a good player but at towards the end it was like the quality was the squad quality as I said. The frustration must have been there because he's thinking other teams are going to have to spend the money and they were making big differences, remember Liverpool bought Fernando Torres for 27 million or whatever it was or 25 million or whatever and he just tain and he just took them up like two levels. If we would have been able to go on by and see if we could have got Torres but a player like that, that could have took that team up a couple of levels, you know, we had good players, a little bit of investment, you know, not ridiculous amount of money, a little bit of investment would have bridged that gap. We were in there anyway. That's the most annoying thing is that we were, we were, we only really fell out of it because of us. We only, and this is where, right, this is where the frustration comes from about Bill Kenright, this is where it comes from, this is where the two sides fall on Bill, I mean this could have been the debate, I know we do more on players but this could have been the debate, is that this is where people genuinely can't bear Bill Kenright is because people on one side go, we were there, all it needed was either investment or run the club better. I mean that was always my gripe with Bill Kenright was, I wasn't one of these people who were like hit a disgrace that he's got no money, my amount of money was always, why do we keep signing these shit deals with like JJB or like fucking the food places or you know the hospitality, that was always my gripe, my always gripe was go and find someone who can run this club for you and stop fucking selling the crown jewels for buttons because that's what it felt like to me, maybe a bit stupid and then see the full picture but I still, I still feel that, I still feel like bringing Elston in was like a really fucking shit decision where he should have been looking for someone a bit better, a lot better actually where has the other side of the camp would be? Well hang on, we finished fifth, Bill's giving you everything and he's doing everything but he should have, I think he should have gone on a track with a better board Bill Kenright, but that's what I feel as a, he should have gone and got people who had investors who had money he wanted to come in and be bored man, there must be people out there who might not have had my sharey's wealth but had a bit of money he'd be cut club together to give moys a little bit more he only needed a bit more sometimes. As I said and we've said this numerous times it was, it was all about clearer than that debt, if you, that debt was fucking huge on that next, it really was, you know basically getting payday loans every year, don't forget we used to, I hardly used to buy plays till August till like the sky money came in and all that you know, but as I said that's where the, I think people get the thing with Kenright confused, I think a lot of people go but what do you want them to do, use your own money it's not his fault he's not rich and listen never had a problem with that I always know his heart in the right place but for me it was always, why have you signed this deal and it was always well we're guaranteed money with that deal it was like well hang on, yeah just forget it. But I suppose some of that will be the attraction money, what could we realistically do? Oh yeah it's again it's hard isn't it, I agree, I agree. It was always save a penny, didn't make a pound, I think it's always been like that though because we haven't had the fluid, that's he'd be having had the freedom of the money, but then for me you've got to have people who work for you, who are creative enough to be able to go well I can attract, I remember, like I remember other clubs it was like I mean they might have all been good examples because their clubs might have been that good but there was always like things like well so and so I've brought in the former chief executive of O2 or something like that and you were thinking why why aren't we doing that? Like you know everyone at the time I remember like there was a time when a Terry Leary, say Terry Leary run Tesco and Tesco were doing very well for themselves, you know some of it might have been real which has come out since but it was always that why aren't you going to get him, he's an evertonian but I suppose they would have gone we can't match his salary, we can't pay him that kind of money, I mean it's the same now in top that Daniel Levy's on like six million pound a year at space and Robert Elston's on probably like maybe 450,000 I think it is, he's on a year so the disparity's still there so but that was always that that was always my bug here that we weren't doing enough but as I said other people would say no Bill did everything, he mortgage this house, well Bill did the stuff but then he yelled on too long or he didn't he didn't try and spread his wings wide enough, you've got it, you've got it there's a time where you have to look and go you know what I want us to be successful if it was me and I've had to go for a few years and then go this isn't enough for me we're doing well this isn't enough I want us to win stuff so I'm going to go and try and get people if I can't get a rich benefactor to come in and spend the money I'm going to try and get people who can come in and create that extra bit if only if only shake my sword it come to us first the world would be different wouldn't it you know wrongly we can only go on now can't we and that's not listen but you can look but I think that's what piss this is what when you look back at those finishes yeah this is what pisses me off when people in the media talk about things and go like never well you know why you're there and you go and we'll go look at last 15 years 10 of the last 15 years we're in the top 607 and what a noise it is the people who are there now that likes us all right Chelsea and Man City about bags of money right but we were doing really well without bags of money we were doing we were doing well without bags of money we had a system that that worked and we were we were hoovering up quality that maybe other people hadn't hadn't looked at this was money ball before money ball yeah yeah basically yeah yeah you know what I mean it this what I know Billy Bean who who's the the fella behind Billy but Billy Bean I know for a fact that he he's said how how much he looked at Evan and has spoke to Evan about it and like Moise um because he's been on like the men and blazers podcast by a few times and Roger Bennett a big evertonian is obviously any chance he can do to bring bring that up when he said he he looked at Evan and Evan were almost like the money they were money ball they were doing it because they had to like his team at two but it was that as I say it was we were it's when people look back and go well look at you know you you could never do what spares done but spares just done what we did spares just went and gone well let's keep adding quality and that's all spares are done to the point where they look at the team now and you go where did this team come from and you look back and go well look where they came from they just bore quality every summer they didn't go out one summer and buy eight players they just bought yeah but it did it and off that yeah fair point but that proved that that didn't work though so they just went out and went quality quality and then when when they sell they normally reinvest it well and sell high and reinvest it well so they they did what we did and man city man city did it as well they just built okay they might have been built on a bit of a grander stage but he didn't straight away go out and go we're buying he's the best he's the best it was like build build build but we couldn't do that because every time we tried to do well we got to that point that we just said around 2009 we'd have all just stopped and the quality just started going for you know you're bringing in people like you want you know you've been the previous with bought in our tethers kales and peanuts now we're bringing in Maggie Gay's season and even even people like Sahar do you know what i mean i know we scored some goals for us but when you're bringing them in instead of bringing the ycubus in or bringing younger it's all just getting reduced and reduced and reduced and that's the real shame that's the real disappointment and I think somewhere that's been lost like you said that's been lost not only in the media but amongst fans as well but when you take a step back now and look at it and go if you look at that on paper and go look at that second half it first you know 2007 2008 and then it just it just went the money was pulled that we'd been and it was just like a massive drop off and any time we did buy it was because we just sold somebody and we got we were very creative and but then then you run out of people to sell as well because you haven't got the quality then you run out of those people to sell as well so it's a real shame but i mean we haven't even spoken about it so who's your player who's your best player mwys boat in the second second half? Layton Baines. Layton Baines. I was close to to Pina because absolutely I think he's just what a fantastic footballer but Layton Baines for a few years the best left back in your the ability is unbelievable great football it still playing now still important now plays a lot of games doesn't cause any issues could have gone to man you a couple of times just you know just a fantastic footballer and for what was this six million quid absolutely just an absolutely bargain you know on the club and all that just a fantastic footballer and love them absolutely love them still love them now just a brilliant player brilliant player obviously had the chance to jump ship as well when never made a song and dance a bar even though we might have wanted to go but and still playing and still very very important player and took time at the club you know at the year yeah in and out not really didn't really you know mwys didn't rush him which was a really important thing he didn't rush him yeah he had less got doing really well at left back he just left them in there let so's a less got get used to the Premier League by playing left back then ease them inside put Baines in there next minute um Baines is playing there and it's he grew didn't he grew as a player well at first he was he seemed like quite shy and you'd see that because like when there was any like free kicks or anything he was like but then it was like no all of them penalties all of them um so it took him a little bit of time to grow into it but once he did um once he did he was he's been magnificent 11 years at the club yours i'm real i'm torn between two okay i'm really am Phil Jagielke 11 years at the club okay Phil Jagielke 11 years at the club's being absolutely fantastic still a captain yeah still a leader not everyone's favorite leader at times as a captain but as a footballer brilliant as you mentioned before 2009 you know only only what a month before the final it was a knocky us as well in a in a nothing game against monsters there and it was just soon as you're seeing it you were like that's him and you just knew that that relationship you had with yo with with uh lescott yo but wouldn't have the same relationship he was two you knew each other's games in and out they would they would complemented each other so much and it was a devastating devastating loss the just at the wrong time um but he's still in there now he's still doing a job but he's not my pet he's doing peanuts my pet because because he's saying it twice no listen i only peanut when you think of pick we pick them up for two and a half million quid um first couple of games he was a little bit off and i remember going to sheffield wednesday in a league cup game and i remember watching him and i remember sitting next to my brother and was like he's not going off he's not going to make it and i was like let him settle down a bit you know ever the pessimist he's not going to make it and slowly but surely we just started to see peanut get used to i mean he was quite small and you didn't know if he had the pace and you're thinking is he going to have enough but slowly started getting into it and he wasn't a player that he kicked he'd like like he'd go down because he was bringing something to free kicks but he wouldn't ever like ride the belt he'd just win the free kick get up and get on with it and slowly as he got used to the Premier League and he was out on the left and Bainj was there and slowly these two players just just watched them click and it has to be it has to be peanut because of him because that relationship was so good and for all that time that was you know you're talking about him being being um one of the best left backs in Europe it it was the best one of the best providers of assists in Europe by a mile by a mile yeah and that was the thing they complemented each other they could read each other's movement i'll be the only the only disappointing about peanut was two disappointing things only left but he just if he scored a few more goals he would have been absolute top player and probably would have attracted other clubs um when he went i think when he went to spares it left the sour taste a lot of people's miles he felt like he was worth more than he'd been offered you know he said he felt like he wanted that challenge of going into the Champions League that our Evan couldn't offer him but he said you know didn't take him long to realise what he left behind that's sometimes that's what it takes sometimes people don't know what they've got got to come back and when he come back pretty straight straight away when he scored on his day route but he was pretty much straight back in in the groove it was only disappointing in his last couple of years he was out injured um but what a player what what a footballer like just just pure just pure class and i remember playing remember when we played man city man city came and they had all the flying and they had all this and that and that game we played Fellaini a Pina sent him in field and he was fucking boss he scored a free kick and you were thinking should he be playing in sentiment field more because he had everything about him and remember he went to well cup um South Africa played number 10 and he wasn't he wasn't the same player they just never clicked for him and maybe Ben's was the big influence and maybe when Ben's played me and he's seen Ben's play for England he wasn't quite the same because he never had that playing in front of and they just complimented each other so well i think they've got to be together in this can't separate them because they've got to be together because they complimented each other so well in the way they style he played Pina would get back if Ben's was up going forward you know i don't think ever have recovered as a team from that left hand side but that's because they were so unique do you know what i mean i don't think when you look at it the balance you can't never have but can't it can't it can't it be replicated though because the intelligence of Pina with the intelligence of Ben's they just they fit they were like hand in glove hmm they were they were fat i mean absolutely i love being out of shame a Bolton and being on holiday and come that was your work yeah and being on holiday and come home we played Bolton away and he played and he was dead clever said to me to say to me what a clever player he is i didn't know whether he'd be fit fast enough at that time because it was early days but we won two on a Bolton yak score and he was dead his passion was brilliant and you were like look how clever he is on the ball and he just got better and better and the way they named two down that left hand side was just incredible i absolutely i just remember when um there was one he was about to scale and he was more like people not doing skill or doing too much skill like Balasi now do you remember the little thing you used to always do where you come inside and then roll his ball roll his foot over the ball and once he did that the defender didn't know what to do because Ben's would go right behind him and he sometimes you'd go little back one Ben's is through and then he'd get it back some he'd get himself into space and get it back um or he'd take it on or he'd take it on and find someone else i mean i think his last sort of his last big conti not big conti but he's a man is a second season he was a he was a he played less the first game of the season and and that was i think that was the last time the last time before he got his injury that he was like he scored and he done but Ben's put him in and he stretched and put it in and it was it was um sorry he set something else up but it was Ben's is him and Ben's again though but the amount of times they did that the amount of times again they assist before they assist Penard getting Ben's and Ben's getting the amount of times he did that it was just he's criminally undervalued Penard as well by a lot of people by a lot of people such a good player and they are they were billions incredible player absolutely incredible i don't even think this is it either or this is the two together joined i laugh when people say Arthetta was better than him because he Arthetta was a good player don't get me wrong but he's nowhere near on Penard's level i think the difference was for me and and i really liked Arthetta but i think the difference was because because with Penard he was a genuine there was a genuine effect on the game because of Ben's because there was this the this and don't get me wrong when we when we didn't have Arthetta we were a different side of course we were but when you took Penard out of the team and then Ben's then so Ben's wasn't as effective and suddenly it was like a power engine on the all combine it was just like it was like that's what we were that we were a proper team we were proper we needed all the bits fitted together and that again when we talk about the side when those bits started to be to be replaced by other bits and those bits not being as good it just it just it just wasn't the same and no just a real shame as we said that like 2009 or whatever we didn't win an FA cup or we didn't win a league cup to really cement that if we'd got past foreign team you know who knows do you know what i mean who knows good days but when i was having anything to like remember them by that's why everyone's like when people are noone and bear i was like noone and bear i was like this game was backing it's because ever my genuinely boss to watch it was genuinely everyone pulling in the same direction everyone you know happy to be in evertoning because it was like we've got no money but we're doing all this and we've got players that clearly play for the shirt you know and that ability because if they weren't kale would be looking into the matter uh our title he'd be into he wouldn't be playing jagielche mwysh it's that from mwysh jagielche um carsley if you know all all in them bought into it and when they were didn't buy into it they were quickly fine and out it's just so frustrating even even mwysh was last season was it mwysh was last season or the year before the yeah mwysh was last season the wigan was wigan no you know a row when you have a cup and you're like a quarter final a home to wigan with no one left in the tournament you know we're man city yeah but you know you're looking at it going wigan the grand we just didn't say no but the thing with mwysh's team or the week later we had city me just turned them over they come back yeah but it's like when we got we got people in the semi final we went to old taff the week after and done 4-4 yeah it's just you knew you'd get a reaction but it's just again you know mwysh could have won that back quarter final maybe could have won the effort well maybe that's the only thing maybe we're a little bit like that we're a little bit like the spares team now maybe we've got we've got it all but we just haven't we're just ultimately we were just we just didn't have enough winners winners because we haven't won anything yeah so uh good side just something missing something missing but you know what fucking hell to be finishing in like fifth and sixth consistently as well consistently every year sixth the odd points just the consistency there do you know it let it let us know listen it's not about pina o bet it's about all of them jags let us know jacubu filaini magag ei the strach anthon peteil let us know your thoughts in the comments who was who was the man for you see you later