 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. Today, I have with me the wonderful Sangeeta Pillai. Sangeeta is not just a really, really close personal friend, but she's also the creator of the award-winning Masala podcast. If you haven't heard Masala podcast, you really need to go out there and listen to it. It's absolutely amazing. She's also the creator of an umbrella brand called Sotsutras, which tackles taboos in South Asian culture. And I think Sangeeta does one of the most amazing jobs out there in the cyberspace, the space of bringing information to people. And I'm absolutely delighted Sangeeta to have you with us today. Sangeeta, it's such a pleasure, such a pleasure to know you. You and I have become friends over the kind of last year. Seema was on Masala podcast. You must go and listen to her amazing episode where she talked about the Kamasutra. She's the expert. And it's such a joy to be here, Seema chatting with you this sunny afternoon. This sunny afternoon in London. We're not having many of those. So this is really a bonus for us. So today, Sangeeta, I want to actually address a point which has really been bothering me. I want to talk to you about BDSM today. And the reason I want to bring up BDSM is because it's like the buzzword. It is a born is throwing this up and everybody thinks that they want to be in BDSM. And I find the problem is that a lot of content creators, sex educators, lots of people are talking about it. None of them have actually ever experienced it or know what it's about. And they're talking about it from this point of ignorance, which I think is actually creating a lot more problems, and they keep banding this word consent around. So I thought today, and for everybody out there who's listening, I personally, I haven't ever been with a partner who's into BDSM, but I've attended about three workshops to actually understand what you go through fairly intense workshops and Sangeeta also has attended a couple of workshops plus she was writing a book where there was a lot of content around BDSM and I know that you did a lot of research with people who are actually in the scene. Absolutely, absolutely. So I'd be delighted to talk about my very limited experience of it so before we set off I must say I am not an expert. It's not something I've seen. It's not something I've practiced in my own personal life, but I know and I've had conversations with people who do so just to kind of put it out there. So, I remember seeing a clip of your workshop where you went and I think you went for a spanking workshop. And I just want to say that generally in the, in the BDSM movement, the workshops that I attended I was told that that is the space that you normally start with you start with spanking. And you thought it was really funny, didn't you? You giggled a lot. I thought it was hilarious. So it was where I did this was with some friends in a club. So one of the people who's not transitioned she's a woman now was really into spanking and she said, I'll try this on you. And she had this kind of whip or ladle or whatever the technical term is. And it just made me laugh because it was just so funny. It was a really interesting sensation and it's the first time I've experienced anything like it. So, to tell you about it, what the person did first of all, and this is key I think it's like, are you okay if I do this, and she did that each time. She just didn't go like find my behind and just kind of go for it. That's not what she did. Each time she said, are you ready? Are you okay? And she would spank me. And also what she was doing, which I thought was really lovely, there was she would stroke my behind a little bit. So it was kind of warm up the area and then spank me each time she did that. So there was something quite, it's so weird that something that is seen as aggressive actually is quite caring. And I think that's the whole point of BDSM from what I understand, that you are so caring of somebody that if they would like pain as their pleasure, that's what you're doing but you're doing it in a really caring way. Yeah, I think that is so key. I'm so glad that you said that because I just think that in most people's head BDSM is like about just getting really rough out there. And like you, the first time I attended a BDSM workshop, I didn't know anybody over there. I arrived over there. I was like, I need to understand this. I need to do this. You can imagine. Okay, so this was mostly women. I think there were two men who were in the workshop who were partners of the women who'd come along. Everybody else out there was just female. But I didn't know anybody. And suddenly you're told that you're going to be spanked. And then you're so, you know, I'm already on edge because I'm thinking, do I really want to go through this? This is going to involve pain. And like you said, they have, you can either use a whip or they have something that looks almost like a TT racket, like a table tennis racket. But it's like a flexible spatula made of rubber, which they use for spanking. And you know what was very weird? So we were told the first thing you do, and I want everybody out there listening to please stay attention to this because we throw that word consent and trust and love around but nobody knows what they're actually saying. So the first thing they did was they said, they partner you up. Did you have a friend that you were with that you were? Okay, so you were lucky you had a friend that you were with. I had a complete stranger and we were told you now have to hug each other you have to put your arm around the other person and make them feel really safe and secure within your arms. And that was a really bizarre kind of situation because I don't know this person she's a complete stranger we walked into a workshop. And we've been told that this is what you have to do. But, like you just said, it's, it's actually so caring this idea that you start off by saying, I care, I'm not going to hurt you. You are going to be in my arms look I'm holding you. Yes. And it was incredible because by the end of the workshop I have to say we were friends, you know. You share something really deep. And then, like you said, each time in our case each time. So she should be like, okay I'm going to do it now. So she warned you. She then spanked, and the degree would go up gradually. Exactly what I experienced as well. And each time they spanked, you stop, and then you rub that area to make it better so she would either rub it or you kiss it better. That is exactly it. And, you know, and I think it's so important that we actually say this to people because every single time I have heard someone speak about it, they, they, they kind of talk about this. Oh, but there are rules around BDSM and consent is really important consent is not that at the start of it just say, Okay, we're going to do this yeah yeah fine. You want to do it I'll do it and that's taken as consent. It's with every movement. And it's every movement and every moment you watch for the other person's reaction you make sure that they are feeling cared for that they are being asked what they want how much they wanted it. And that's what really kind of impressed me about my kind of one session that I did with this sanking exercise. Not only was I asked each time, Okay, are you ready. The area was kind of gently touched, then I was bang, and then there was the after care, and then it was rubbed again. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of really nice. It's just so bizarre that it's spanking and it was painful and also she would ask me each do you want me to update. So she would do a little bit first and then slowly up it so nothing was like whack, just like that, that you weren't expecting. And I think that is a microcosm of everything that people talk about in the BDSM space. And that's the thing if, if anybody that's watching or listening to this takes this one thing away that every moment and every movement is about caring for the other person. Whereas conversely what we think of as BDSM is this inflicting pain on another person, you're doing as much as they want, as much as they can take, and as much as is welcome, and that's it. The person receiving it has to be equally into it so it can't just be that the person who's giving it is like, I really love inflicting pain. I'm going to go into BDSM. That is not BDSM. It's the person who's actually getting it. This is their fantasy. This is for them. You said that you actually spoke to, we'll come back a little bit more to our personal experiences and I'm going to tell you what else we went through because I went through three workshops so we went all the way from spanking to tying. So, you know, there was that whole thing of what kind of knots you use, then this idea of the safe word, then this idea of, you know, where you sort of massage the person on the heart to calm them down because as you go higher in your passion, your pain threshold increases, but so does the desire to do it, you know, to get more rough with it, let's say, you know, whatever the word is. And funnily enough, the Kamsutra also talks about it, so we'll come to that in a minute, but you were saying that you interviewed these people and spent time talking to a couple who were very into the scene. So, would you tell us a little bit more about that? It was such a fascinating conversation for me, so I was writing this book in which BDSM was an element of it and I asked a couple of friends who I knew were in the scene and one of them agreed to speak to me and she was very close to a friend of mine so she spoke very openly. She was a married couple and she was, I think she was the dominant one and he was a submissive so they're the dominant sub and the way that she explained it to me, it was all about caring and nurturing, right? And he needed her to sometimes tell him quite strongly whether he'd done his work, he was doing his PhD or something like that. And that was also part of then nurturing and caring for each other. And then he would ask for specific levels of pain. And then she would give him whatever he needed. Sometimes it would be that she would deny him the pain because that was part of their kind of play as well. And a lot of things, it was what they called, I think 24-7, that's what they did. So either you had a 24-7 role play that that's your life or you chose certain parts of your life when you had that. I think they were 24-7. So that pretty much the entire life was this kind of playing a role. And she would always tell me from what I remember this was years ago that a lot of it was about, she would shout at him because he wanted her to shout at him. And that was kind of their thing, have you done this or have you not done that kind of thing. And the reward would also be different levels of pain than she told me, but I don't remember that the various implements. But there was something like a hairbrush, there was something else like a whip, there was something else like with serrated edges and things like that. So depending on what he wanted at that particular point. And what I went away with that was like an impression of a really loving relationship actually. There was so much intimacy and so much caring for each other within that roles that they created for themselves. I found it really sweet actually and really romantic. It just sounds a bit crazy when you say it, but it was really sweet and it was really romantic because they were so into each other and so loving of each other in exactly the way that the other wanted. But isn't that the whole point, like I know that the Kamstitra says that the secret to being a good lover. So not a desirable lover, we have to make this distinction each time that a desirable lover is just somebody who is really sexy and exciting and somebody that you want to be with. Yeah, good lover is somebody who's good with you when you're being intimate together. And the secret of being a good lover is being able to do what the other person wants to focus entirely on the other person's pleasure and not think about yourself so to drop your own ego. It's not about what you can do but what the other person wants you to do. And I love this idea I'm going to go back to this point of the 24 seven now this is something I did not know about that you can actually have two sets of. I don't know relationships where some BDS BDS and couples are in this role play 24 seven so that's their entire life. And others have specific times that they set aside so they kind of have what is the outside BDS and life that other people would consider normal and then they have these moments of passion where they indulge in this. Yeah, I thought it was absolutely brilliant and there's so many things that I'm sure I've got a notebook somewhere and I wish I dug it out before our chat. I was researching the book and to me it sounded like they created this kind of universe in their 24 seven space of how they were together with each other. And when they went that left when they left that universe they were kind of normal people doing normal things and going to the supermarket or whatever. But when they came home, they were 24 seven. And everything. And from what I remember her telling me everything was as per the rules of their universe so I don't know if you wanted a cup of tea you shouted the person to give you a cup of tea, because that was the role. If you wanted sex you'd demand sex because that was your role. So do you see how I mean like that's their 24 seven universe where everything played into that dormant sub role. So to me it was fascinating absolutely fascinating. And I can maintain that forever like I don't know if they did that. Six months we do that and then I don't really know about that. But at that point when I met them when I met her. This is what they were doing. That's amazing like I said I didn't know about this bit of it. So, one of the things that we used, which we tried was dying, you know. First you have to understand nothing is which kind of knots you use how you use these knots because everybody has a different level of tying that they can take. And I remember when I was the sub when I was being tied. It was so it freaked me out so much. This idea that I was going to even though it was in a workshop with a lot of other people with a teacher in charge in a place where it, you know there was nothing likely to happen to you but even then the fear of being tied to having your hands tied was really I mean like there's just some intrinsic part of you that my breathing went up my heart rate shot up. It was a really uncomfortable feeling and then they show you how the initial set of knots that you do. You can actually untie them as well so it's not just that you will be tied up and the other person will have to let you out but yeah they do not swear you would be tied up and you could let yourself out. And of course, the other extreme is the Japanese system of knotting where those knots are far more intense they become almost like an art form because that's a huge skill that you have to learn. Yeah, and they would not you and not just tie you to the bed but suspend you from the ceiling and so on with those knots so it's a whole range of things. But, you know, for everyone out there like I said, everybody wanting to understand that they want to try BDSM and oh yeah, this is really exciting because this is what we see in pornography you know somebody gets out there and starts going you know, tying somebody else up and then much thrashing around. That's not how it happens. So, you take the string the rope whatever you're going to use. You tie it together. And actually the sub is sometimes the one who put the knots into it. Just to feel safe initially. Did your couple ever talk to you about naughty. No, they didn't actually. There were some of the things other things that she said to me and it came back to me she said 50 shades of gray has so much to answer for. She was so against it because it's like it kind of subverts the whole idea of this, which is consent consent consent. She's like you don't even go into a room where there's say there's a BDSM session going on among couples. You go in there unless there's consent. There's consent at every point before you do every single thing over and over and over again. It's that important. Whereas what we saw in 50 shades was like there's some silly contract that she signs and then she doesn't even know what she's doing and you know it's just, and she really really was very anti this whole film and kind of how it depicted BDSM. And the other thing I wanted to say was that with bringing it back to kind of our culture South Asian culture that we're part of already we have problematic relationship patterns from between men and women. Men are kind of seen as the chaser even in Bollywood he's saying, she's saying no no no but actually she means yes yes yes which is bullshit. When she's saying no it means no, but we've been brought up on this diet of women say nobody doesn't really mean anything. So, when you add BDSM to that is another layer, it becomes hugely problematic. Because BDSM is not like you said Seema and I've said about ignoring what somebody is saying and whacking the hell out of them or thrashing them or whipping them. It is not about that. It is about catering to their desire if their desire is to be dominated you do that but you do that with care like we've said you do that gently you do that by paying attention to them. And that is so true when we look at it from our cultural context it is never about approaching if you're a man approaching a woman. And if she's saying no thinking that oh she just you know is just saying stuff. It is not if you're in a sexual relationship with somebody. I don't know pulling out some whatever whips and chains and handcuffs or whatever, and going for it without really seeing what what it is they want. So I think we have to be a South Asians particularly sensitive to how we play this out. Oh, God, yeah, you know, at somewhere near the middle of last year so while we were in the, the depths of lockdown. I had this email from a young girl so a lot of young women had written and saying my partner wants BDSM my partner enjoys inflicting pain you know etc but this one particular email it really made me sit up and think because she said, she was a virgin. It was locked down so she hadn't managed to meet this guy they were getting married so the wedding had all been set up then postponed slightly because lockdown started and the whole world was sort of stuck in this this time warp. And she said that they were ending up having a lot of conversations on the phone. And this guy was really into pain. She said that she was petrified one is she I mean she came from a very conservative small town family where she had never even masturbated. She was a virgin she never even masturbated. He's over there telling her that he wants to watch her getting injections in her butt. He wants to watch her being like he wanted to watch the beating so that you know, and she said there was all sorts of things and he keeps everything that he that turned him on. Somehow included her receiving pain in some way. And you can imagine I mean he even went as far as to say one of his fetishes was to watch her we on the floor or poop on the floor and then playing with her with her feces. Now, all this may be in somebody's head and they might want to do it you can imagine the you can imagine the fear in this girl's mind. She said, I can't talk to my family about it, you can imagine if they're that conservative. She definitely cannot go and tell her mother about it. How would you go and tell anybody else about it most of your friends haven't been through this. What do you see how do you approach someone. And it was just, and I can almost imagine the fear, like I said I attended a workshop voluntarily knowing that there would be very limited things. I was petrified. Even when it started and you know we were told no you have to hug the other person you have to make sure that you know when the heart rate goes up you actually massage them even on the heart you make sure that they calm down. Even with that. I was petrified. Can you imagine what this girl must have been feeling like. I think that just sort of breaks my heart that somebody is in that situation and hasn't gotten out like cannot talk to anybody. And is going to be married to this guy. Yeah, who doesn't seem to understand the basic fundamentals of what he's doing like. That would work if the other party was into it as well. She clearly wasn't. She wasn't and she was petrified and she didn't know what it was about. Yeah, I mean that is so heartbreaking my God. You know, even if you get to that point of fashion where you so the Kamasutra of course talks about, you know, using a certain amount of force like that love scratches love bites, etc. We talk about that in a minute but even when you get to a point where your passion is that increased. I still don't want injections being put into me in my but I don't want to feel the pain of a needle. For somebody else's pleasure. Yeah, exactly. But it seems to miss the whole point that pleasure is a dual thing it's for both of you. The act of pleasure, sexual pleasure is for two people it is not just one person getting whatever they need and the other person feeling pain or feeling worthless or whatever. Unless that's what they want you know like, but it seems to miss the whole point of this. And I think, from what you just said, I guess the next point to make for everybody out there is that you have to go really slow, you have to approach it ever so slowly. Whereas, if you go in there so the Kamasutra of course, as I said talks about certain things it talks about certain types of hits so it's a treaties it categorizes everything so it says, you can either hit at such and such point of passion with this many fingers from the front, or with this part of the hand or, you know, so it gives you four different types of hand mudras that you can use for hitting purposes. I guess it's giving you that much detail, you know, like literally pointing out the specifics because when you're writing it down in a book how do you make people understand exactly what to do so they're giving instructions. But it says, you know, that love biting, for instance, if, if he bites you too hard, it actually says women if he bites you too hard, tell him to stop. If he doesn't stop, tell him twice and if he doesn't stop then you push him down, sit on top of him back, bite him back twice as hard till he does stop. So it's like, it's about your consent saying, you know, like, you are in charge don't let anybody else put this on you but it says also very specifically that you don't start your forplay with love bites and with thrashing out. You have to warm up that area, you have to use the passion. Yeah. Incidentally, it also says that only a donkey would start with bite love bites because apparently when donkeys have sex, they start with biting each other on the neck. That's brilliant. Do you want to be a donkey or do you want to be a human being? What is it? Do you want to be like a fabulous lover or do you want to be a donkey? I just think that it's this, like I said, I've heard in recent times various, various people sort of jump into conversations or to come into conversations with this idea of BDSM. And talk about how, oh yeah, yeah, you know, this can go, if you're into BDSM then this is fine too. It isn't. You are not okay to say that this is fine or this isn't. Only the two people involved can decide if this is in their contract of BDSM or not. Yes. And I want specifically educators and creators, content creators to please stop saying this because you really are fostering the wrong impression. Absolutely. Also, don't forget that if you, if this is the message you give out and somebody goes and does something to someone else, you are traumatizing people for life. Hence physical trauma sits within your body and you stay with for the rest of your life. Like that young girl, I mean, if she got married to that guy, I mean, you know, these are physiological responses that are built in our body. Remember, you were talking about how your heart started racing and whatever I've, you know, experienced a little bit of something similar. Our bodies are designed to detect threat and elevate why does the adrenaline go up at the heart rate so you can run. It's a deeply wired physiological response from an evolutionary point of view. So something really traumatic happened that somebody isn't able to say that stays with them. So you're scarring someone for life, basically. So remember that. Yeah, I just think, you know, the reason that we've had to address this today is, as I said, because it's been flagged up like you said, 50 shades of gray went viral. Every human being on the planet was trying to be 50 shades of gray at some point. And it's great when you're imagining it in your head, even as the recipient of it, it probably gets very exciting when it's just in the head. Reality is very different when we fantasize it's a whole different ball game. And I know that with this young girl, she said to me, she said, every time I say to them that this makes me very uncomfortable, he would that she said he laughs and says, you'll be fine, don't worry, you'll be fine. And I just want to say that that does not put any fears to rest. I don't want to hear the other person say, don't worry, you'll be fine. I want them to say, I won't do it. If you don't like it. Exactly. It is a mutual pleasure situation. That's what it's supposed to be. Right. Mutual excitement, mutual pleasure, whatever that looks like but it has to be for the two of you like Seema what you were saying what is it. The contract is with the two of you. It cannot be one person enforcing whatever works for them on the other person, whether that's, you know, overt or subconscious that is not okay. Tell me what made you go and try the spanking workshop what drew you to it. Oh, it was just, we were at a club and there was my friend who said, you know, would you like to try this and I'm like, yeah, sure. So I'm quite curious about things I guess I'm curious about life and sex and everything. And I just wanted to see what it felt like, like in a physical way what did it feel like. And to me it just kind of tickles me like not so much in a physical way I just thought it was really funny. Something about it made me really giggly and playful I guess it just kind of felt like children running around spanking each other you know so it brought out my kind of child self almost it wasn't sexual at all for me. Now the two times now that we're talking that I've tried maybe things one was the somebody there was a partner had at that time, who used hot wax on me. And now there's a special kind of wax which I just not the same candle wax because that burns I think there's special kind of wax. And then from what I remember him doing he was very gentle, he stroke the area a lot, he asked me if I was ready, then poured, and it was very pleasurable. He poured it all over my back. And it was so it to me felt like everything was heightened. Like I could really feel everything I could feel his breath I could hear every sound. So all my senses were very very heightened from what I remember. So the pleasure was heightened as well. And I think that was the purpose of the wax. And I think he also tried like something that felt like sort of felt like a cheese grater there was like a little device I don't know what it's called. But you again you run it on the on the skin. So it doesn't pierce the skin, but it's really rough. And again what it does is, you feel everything 10 times over. So whatever sensations like whoa that's really really magnified. So then if he's kissing you, you really feel it. I think that's the point of this from what the little bit that I understood. And that's been my kind of experiences of it. I did. I also like you was tied up I think it wasn't a workshop it was an actual a partner and I couldn't really cope with it. I just didn't like it. It made me. I think he just had my hands or blindfolded me I think that's what he did and I just I found it very uncomfortable so I asked him to take it off. It's not something that I would do but I think it has to be something that feels right for you. Each one of us. I think what 50 shades of gray and mainstream media have made it like everybody wants to be whipped and spanked and blindfolded and hurt. That is not the case. Absolutely. The wax thing I've never tried the wax thing but that really interests me so what I want to know is now I'm always saying that if you want. You know if you want to create a pleasure zone on your body like any part of your body can be an original zone. All you have to do is, you have to treat it right. Basically, I always say that if you want that to be a pleasure zone you you have to touch it with like the barest touch so like you were talking about the cheese grater you know like you you grays it with the tip of your nail just so that it really sort of sensitize it you know it makes. It's such a light touch that it makes every nerve ending kind of crave and say yeah what's happening over here everything comes alive we're really aware of what's happening in this particular area. And then if you kiss somebody over there it's like, it just explodes it's amazing. So, for everyone out there, don't get yourself cheese grater or an implement or or a candle wax it's a special type of candle wax. Try it the candle and pour it on your partner's body you're going to please don't oh my god no. But try it with like I said just you know, use the tip of your nail to graze it touch it very very likely the lighter the touch, the more sensitive that area becomes and then the pleasure that your partner is going to get is, it's totally intense but coming back to the wax what fascinates me was so when he sensitized that area for you when he touched it because the back is already so it's got so much sensation doesn't it. It really does. I mean just being kissed on the back. Otherwise it's like, it pops. And he also turned me around so I couldn't see what was going on. So, you know, I was facing the wall and he was behind me. He did talk me through it so I'm now going to do this. Are you okay with this. How does this and he would drip the slightest bit of candle wax say how does that feel. And I'd be say I'd be say oh yeah that's okay. Then he do a bit more and he do some now going further down your back so there was no sudden anything. But the area was highly highly highly sensitized because this hot wax you know so everything kind of comes alive. And that's what I remember I remember feeling it was very exciting I was very turned on I thought it was a fantastic sensation. So that I was actually asking about the touch now at this point was the touch, the very light touch to sensitize it or was it like a harder rubbing to make it a little less sensitive so that the wax wouldn't hurt because there are different types of Yeah, so I think from what I remember, it was a kind of nurturing touch like it was quite a caring touch to say I'm here. Okay, I'm stroking your back and it was very warm from what I remember. It wasn't a light touch it was like, it's all okay. I'm preparing you for this. Okay, that's the kind of touch it was. Okay, because one of the workshops that we attended like I said you know it was about sort of then accepting a certain amount of either hitting or you know the twang of the whip or whatever. And for that one what they would do is they would actually rub that area harder, you know, like this so you really. So, it sort of heats up the area but also makes it already used to a certain amount of roughness. It actually increases the ability to take some so it you know whereas the lighter touch makes it very very sensitive. So it heightens it's like yeah it's brilliant if you're going to kiss somebody there or whatever but yeah, yeah. If you're going to start spanking someone the idea is to actually warm it up a little bit harder to warm it up a little bit so that the skin gets used to. And perhaps with this I don't think he needed to do that because it, it's a very light touch anywhere with the candle wax it's not a harsh thing. It's a very heightened sensation is probably good, because already it's a hot with a drip of a candle wax you don't want it to be like hugely sense, you know, hugely warmed up because you won't then feel it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. That makes sense. And you said you were actually standing up that I find interesting because it would have been more difficult. I mean like if somebody's lying down. You could drop to this, but I guess this makes for the drip. It makes the dripping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, like I said I'm, I'm so delighted that you're over here talking to me about this talk with me about this because I really think that it's that before and after that's so important for people to understand. And you cannot go in and say to somebody, I want to try this out. It's about, can we try it out. Should we try it out. And the really important thing is where you begin. Do you begin with spending an entire evening just hugging each other talking about how you're going to try it out. Let that be an evening of foreplay for the next thing. It is so important for people to understand this. And we just, you know, we use the word like I said, we literally ban be the word consent. What does consent even mean. Do you think that there's a specific description that you would give to the word consent if we were in terms of trying to explain to people. What do you think is this what what what is the word consent means does somebody consent to the thing you're doing. Do they accept it. Do they like it. Do they respond to it positively. And I think if we think about the word what is the word and what does it mean. Right consent is bandied about here and left right in center. But I don't think we're thinking about it enough. And if you're, they can never be too much consent. Let's just say it this way. You can never say too many times. So you make sure you're doing it verbally. You're asking your lover, I am going to do x or I'm thinking or I would like to do x. What do you think, would you like this. And you can be very clear the other person can say yes or no or maybe, and they're very clear cues, they are your cues. And also when you're engaging in whatever physical actor engaging in ask, wait, give it a second or two to judge how they're responding. Well, we're human beings were wired to pick up signals from each other. You can see on their face you can see on their body. They love it. They hate it. They're not sure about it. And then you, you kind of decide what your next step is going to be. Right. So consent is about does somebody consent to something do they find it a positive experience do they like it. And that's simple. Isn't it. It's just that simple that if you want to do something to somebody that you ask them, and if they say you try it out a little bit if they've said yes, you start with something small. And if they like it you can go a little bit more. And they don't like it, you need to stop and move on. Isn't that what we mean each time that we say there's a set of rules that this is where you learn, you understand the idea of rules. And the couple that you spoke to, did they talk about how you come to make the rules. I mean, like, what did they say about, because mine was like I said short term experience one on one with, you know, workshop. Yeah, it's very easy to make up rules at that point and say, I don't want that. Please don't do this. Don't come, you know, etc. But how do you come to rules within a relationship. So I, with, with the two of them, I don't really remember I'm sure they've because it's a long term relationship I'm sure they've discussed it and come to whatever agreements they came to. But within their kind of play situations if they went somewhere else where they were playing. I remember her very clearly telling me that at each step you would ask every single step you would ask, can, you know, can I come into this room. Is it okay if I talk to you. Can I touch you, can I kiss you can I do something such to you. And it is as explicit and she's like, it is boring as hell, but that is part of what they do. Nothing is done unless there is explicit and express consent given for that act, whatever that act might be. So it is that commonplace. Nobody does anything unless the other person says, yes, I would like this. No, I wouldn't like that. And that's how the rules were in their kind of space. There can be a fairly easy one to understand, ask at every point, wait for a yes or no. There are no fluid moments where you say oh but the passion is high and I really and I could see from her face that she really or he really wanted. It doesn't work like that you can't see from their face, ask. It's as simple as that. It is literally as simple as that a yes, no, cannot be confused. You should not don't go Bollywood on this. It's not a Bollywood film. This is real life. If he or she is saying no, it means no. No. And just to wind up the conversation. The idea of the safe word. Now we hear a lot about the safe word. Yeah. Again, from what I understand, it's, you know, I think in my session with my then partner, I can't remember what the safe word was, but we did have one. We did have one and he said to me, you need to say X every time you feel uncomfortable or whatever and I think from my very limited understanding of this I am not an expert that you always always agree a safe word because that is the one thing that you might say, oh, I like the sound of this and then but two minutes in you're like, okay, I can't really bear this like you were saying with when your hands were tight. Or for me as well when I was blindfolded initially I thought oh interesting and then as I went into like okay my body saying no it's a very clear no. So then how do you stop it. I think a safe word whatever yours might be and I think it's very individual it could be, I don't know purple could be anything right. I thought of with something that you both know something that you both understand to be the safe word I think that's the key doesn't matter what the safe word is, as long as you both agree that that is it. And the minute someone says that the other person stops whatever they're doing. And I think that's again very very important because in our own minds, we might be willing to go to sort of what feels like a dangerous place because it's exciting. I don't want the safety to know that it could stop like the not you were talking about Seema when you're a beginner, the not that you can undo as a beginner is very very important to our kind of psychological sense of safety right. And that's the safe word I think it's the same literally it's, it's such an important thing to your psychological brain. So to know that, okay, I've been tied together but I can actually bring my own hands out this not because that really bothered me it really bothered me. Yeah. And so, I guess, what we are both trying to say to everybody out there that BDSM is a word that gets bandied around we talk about it a lot everybody thinks they want to try it. It's the new thing on the porn hub. It's like, yeah, we're going to do this. I understand the word consent and rules has got thrown into the mix. But what does it actually mean. And as you heard from Sanjita that every single time it's putting rules into place is not a difficult thing. The first rule should be, do you want to do this, I'm going to do this, is it okay. Or no, if you cannot understand how to make other rules, keep it to just simply that yes or no it's the simplest thing you can do. Yes, should that be rule number one, Sanjita. Yeah, I think that should be rule number one. Yeah, absolutely. Rule number two is go extremely slow. You don't go charging in like a bull in a China shop. Especially if you are the one who wants it in your partner doesn't. It's got to be extremely slow that whole sort of incubation period needs to be over there. Did you have an incubation period. I think his mind was such a limited experience. I'm not sure. Did you find that like there were times did you talk for any length of time. Yeah, we did. And in fact, before we began our session we had a whole discussion about it. And he said to me, I would really like to do this. What do you think and I was like, Oh, that sounds really interesting. And he explained to me how it works. So he explained to me I thought about it and then I said yes so there was definitely an innovation period before we, you know, before we did whatever we did in our bedroom. Absolutely. So I think that's a really important point that Seema brilliant so you have your you go slow you have your incubation period where you actually spend a couple of days just discussing what it would feel like to talk about it, talk, talk about it really. And for me, I think the thing that really put my, my heart beat to rest you know that really sort of calm me down was the amount of time that was spent with this other girl who was a stranger with her arm around me saying, and you know she had to put her arm around me and then just stroke me and say, it's going to be okay, it'll be fine, you'll be fine. It's anything you won't like. And I was so nervous I was still so nervous because I do not like pain I have no pain threshold and the idea of being spanked and some of the other couples that already started by then. So you could hear that. You know, like, oh my God, I really don't want this. So, it is extremely nerve wracking. I had gone in voluntarily to attend this workshop for the sake of my work so that I could understand when I explained it or when I wrote about it. It was very hard. So, imagine somebody who doesn't have the option of an out. You don't want to traumatize them and scar them for life because that's violence. Absolutely. So, um, yeah, I just hope that this session has been useful for you. I really hope that you're going to take away some of the advice from this and like, like we said, even if it's just about whether how slow you're going to go what rules you're going to have the yes and no, and just understanding that it's all about being so super gentle that it makes the other person feel that a little bit of pain is fine and feel cared for and feel loved and not threatened because being threatened is not sexy. No, not at all. It's the opposite of sexy. It's the opposite of sexy. I hope you've enjoyed the session. As always, please do like, comment, subscribe. If you need to get in touch with me, I am on info.seema.com and that gmail.com you can send your questions in over there. And if you'd like to get in touch with the beautiful Sengita Pillai. She is on Instagram on under Sol Sutras on Twitter also Sol Sutras, Sengita. And of course you have an email address which is email at solsutras.co.uk. Don't worry if you haven't managed to get any of that information. It'll all be in the description so you'll have access to her anyway. But yes, Sengita is over there to answer any questions as well. In the meantime, stay safe, look after yourselves. And we will see you over here next week again. Thank you so much. Bye.