 Hey good evening and welcome to the pandemic version of Montpellier Civic Forum where we're going to talk about town meeting day that's coming up on March 2nd and this is of course the pandemic town meeting where you can vote and you're encouraged to vote absentee but you can vote on the day as well and we've got some good elections coming up we've got a couple of districts district one and district three we have some school board elections and we have one person running for a five-year term on the park commission we have Jim Murphy coming in from the school board to talk about his school budget bill will be by talking about the city budget bill Fraser and Watson appears as Mayor of Montpellier who takes us on a walking tour around talking about projects where they are where they're not where they could be where they probably won't be that's really good discussion and tonight we're going to deal with district one and we're going to we're going to deal with district one and I'm really pleased to have Nat Frothingham someone I've known for years here he's running for district one I'm glad to be here thank you Nat how do I know you you know me I think as editor of the bridge at some point how long were you editor of the bridge well not for the whole 24 years probably the last 15 or 16 and you were a publisher oh both yeah of course publisher means that you're responsible for keeping the paper alive financially really it also means other duties as assigned other duties as assigned and it's kind of impressive what is Nat Frothingham up to post bridge I'm sure I'm not the only one to ask that question well two things really a number of projects for example tomorrow morning at nine o'clock I am going to be here in the USA in Vermont and participating with my daughter in England and her friends and some of my friends in a reading of Macbeth Shakespeare's Macbeth and we've already started and we are hoping to finish the reading tomorrow but I have a feeling it might go into extra innings how many hours difference five I'm I'm up to bat at nine o'clock they're up to bat five hours later I mean later meaning later their time are you a particular character or no no no I was the director of the first reading and played a very I was very very modest in the characters I played this time one of my daughter's friends Sarah is going to be the director I'm hoping that she will assign me a very juicy part which part do you hope for realizing I haven't read Macbeth since high school well there are some there are some amazing lines from from Macbeth himself and there are a couple of low-life figures that come in I think they're called first and second murderer and they're kind of they're fun to do what will happen with this episode of Macbeth or with this production of Macbeth I think it's it's strictly for enjoyment it's pure enjoyment and it's a chance for people to see each other on zoom and to have some fun and to get something done you know as if you can't no one else gets something done on zoom well I'm sure that zoom is all over the place zoom zoom zoom you're writing aren't you at this point I am writing I'm doing some writing and what topics uh when I first left the bridge I wrote a long an overlong story about the fires in the west and I found myself really absorbed by that subject because I had worked out there as a kid as a college student I'd worked out there for two summers and so I had a I had an anchor point I was really interested in the west and what was happening to the fires and I went on for pages and pages and pages eventually I felt that it was complicated enough that I really this was before confinement as we know it with COVID-19 I thought I'd really like to get out there I'd really like to talk to some people on the ground and I put it aside but my interest my interest is still there um but what leads you to council now you've been in town for how long how long have you lived in and around Montpellier oh more than 40 years 40 to 50 years is this your first time running for council yes is it your first time running for any office no what had you run for I ran for the school board years ago yeah I both I also had another I had another youth youthful fling at elective office what was that well I'll tell you a story about that when they gave me a party and I was leaving the bridge they said and now we have the voice of Patrick Leahy I ran against Patrick Leahy in the Democratic primary the first time he got elected in the 70s yep and and I I I was smothered the the the election result was announced about 20 minutes after the polls closed and I did very well in two towns I don't know why Woodstock but I do know why Marlboro because my aunt hasn't in there and everybody knows her and likes her so I did it did extremely well in in Marlboro so you were the first sacrificial lamb for Patrick Leahy and what he said to me was hi Nat he said nothing nothing much is happening down here and you're really lucky not to be down here so we flash forward to the pandemic yeah what caused you to think now it's time to try for city council and I have I have a strong I'm going to put it this way I have a strong affinity for Montpelier in other words affinity in what sense well in in the sense that I I feel we're lucky to be here I feel it's a lucky it's a lucky place to live with our two or three maybe four or five downtown streets and and the the the amazing history that surrounds us and the face-to-face traditions you know that you know we get out on the street and we meet people and they talk to us or we talk to them I I feel strongly about I have felt strongly about Montpelier for years and years and years and years ask this commonly and for those of you who've watched this show in years past you'll understand the question and you'll recognize the question is Montpelier a city or a town because that frames it frames your judgment on council and and the public policy are we a town you know when it dresses up when it dresses up for a gala evening it's a city and in most other respects it's it's a small almost a small town yes in what sense would you say it's a city it's a state since it has no night life to speak well I don't know about that it in fact there was a surge of nightlife here oh six to ten years ago and we were celebrating that but restate your question well my question is again it's in some aspects Montpelier has been called a city it is the regional of Worcester and well it's the state capital right it's the state capital but and you know we have we have I don't know I've heard the numbers the numbers move all over I've heard people say 15,000 I've heard people say 20 I've heard people say 22,000 at any rate there are until COVID there have been thousands of people driving into the city or walking into the city or biking into the city during the day to be employed and to conduct business in that sense in that sense it's kind of a city it's it's more than a market town it's a it's the capital of Vermont so in that sense it's a city you know I think I think you know I think there may be some vanity involved I think there may be some some pride proper pride but some vanity involved in that we're a city district one goes all well describe district one what are the boundaries the geographic boundaries and how are how is district one tied together sociologically well you know I'm not certain we're supposed to be in a neighborhood and I met the neighborhood coordinator in fact I've known the neighborhood coordinator now I don't know whether the neighborhood I don't think the neighborhood is actually defined by our voting districts I think the voting districts are probably defined by we you know we want three voting districts and we want six counselors and we want a counselors a counselors race every year and now how do we how do we how do we arrange the map so that you know I guess I got a list from these town clerk and it was a voting list of approximately 1500 names so if there are three districts that's three times 1500 names yet I'm not certain that like a small town that the voting districts are arranged with the logic of a community neighborhood well the logic is that it will have an equal balance of the number of people sitting in that district and you know this sounds like we're talking about setting up congressional districts and they'll try as much as possible to not break up neighborhoods actually can and congressional districts by the way Richard you may have me on this one you may be a scholar of congressional districts I have seen some very odd gerrymandered well there are congressional districts that have you know that have a kind of a tooth a slender tooth going up here and another another much bigger district supporting it I'm not certain that those gerrymandered districts are all that arranged around community I think they may be arranged about around party politics and how we can how we can how we can start a democratic district democratic or republic just republican district but at least it starts off usually in most core districts with keep trying to keep communities because I think we do same you don't see the meadows busted up between two districts yeah but one will district one goes all the way past it goes all the way up terraced it goes all the way up terraced street right it goes in fact way up terraced street and it also goes up to up to the up to Bev Hills home Pembroke Hills right goes way up there and then it also goes out Elm street right and it goes out to Gould Gould Hill Road know that doesn't it also go out to dog river I think there is dog there yeah and you get the other side of Hubbard Park yeah Claire yep yep so you do have another you get a piece of downtown right and you get a piece of downtown as well yep what is your sense of of what the people who live in that region how they view their unique problems or are there unique I'm not I'm not certain I'm not certain they would I'm not certain they would see that uniqueness I'm not certain that you could define the entire district and get and get everybody saying this is what's unique about it what do you believe that district would benefit from more of if we were allocating resources uh the people who are south of the river in district three might have some some real serious plans I think that they would like park space the people up in district two where I live I don't know exactly what they would want but the people in district one which happens to have Hubbard Park in it what what kind of resource would they look for what do you think that that these people want of council that council is not giving them right now how would you represent them differently I think uh I you know I know I'm not I don't want to get adversarial but I think we'd lead busy lives and we may be drawn to some kind of controversy in the city but sometimes I have met some people and they're not a huge number of people some people who have simply felt that they're not connected they're not connected in a lively way with the city how they're connected through the can you move that forward well somebody said to me that I think it was I can remember the comment I can't remember the person but the comment was that there'd been no contact there'd been no contact for a period of time and this fellow admittedly this fellow works outside of town and commutes to stow so he does that every day and he gets back here at night so part of part of his feeling of there's no connection is self-induced he works outside of town but but I think I think that there could be now this is me sure I think there could be a livelier conversation between city council and voters across the city but also in this district every year council after the election does a retreat and they come back with council goals and for as long as I've been doing this show which is quite a few years now every year one of those goals is to improve communication mm-hmm and when I have and on and talk before the pandemic of course and established office hours and she had a little room in city hall and she had stated times and people could meet with the mayor what is council not doing in terms of communication that you think they could be doing because they're concerned about it every year it's not going to let me just say that my remarks may be fragmentary sure but they're meant they're meant to be they're meant to be helpful and not captures of course when you're running for office you it's like it's like you're taking an exam them the next morning it's like suddenly you've got a you've got a history exam or a math exam or a quiz and that does that does concentrate your attention on math and history amazingly and when you think I'm going to run for city council you begin to bone up on city council and so I went right for the minutes of a recent meeting and this is an improvement I did read all I didn't read all the minutes I read at least one set of minutes just wanted to I just wanted to put my hand in that in that basket and it said it it started off with a public invitation to the public to speak and the speaker was let's see if I can remember his name his name is Whitaker and Mr. Whitaker was speaking to the council and the minutes said Mr. Whitaker spoke to the council about the transit center period okay well what did Mr. Whitaker say about the transit center I was interested but that wasn't in the minutes and I had another point in the minutes it said the three candidates made you know the three counselors who are up for or at least offering themselves they may not have any you know they may not have any opposition but the three candidates up for reelection made statements made campaign statements and I said oh this is going to be cool this is going to be interesting but nothing was said nothing was said nothing was reported every one of those meetings is on orca and you can watch them actually on orca I know I'm just talking I'm talking about I'm talking about you asked me for a right you asked me to react I'm reacting have you read the city manager's report that comes out every I do I did read it when I was editor of the bridge I read it and read it and read it which gives you a bit more granularity but most people don't read it and read it and read it that's the exception okay let me let me be uh can I can I can I be a little obnoxious I'm practiced in that Bill Fraser and I essentially there may have been others but it was essentially I think Bill and I I'm not certain if Jake Brown was involved at the time he may have been involved Jake Brown being a partner my partner my business partner and friend who was we were in a partnership for four or five years in the early days of the of the bridge we cooked up this idea that the city manager would have a page in the bridge and it's gone to monthly it's a monthly page since that page was instituted a city budget has never been defeated the pause the pause is for emphasis you say nobody's reading it but I think people do read it oh oh I'm sorry I meant the city manager's report weekly report to council that's online oh I'm sorry no you're absolutely right I'm talking about the report in the bridge absolutely and people read the school page as well yep no you're you're totally right what I was saying is that the minutes a more detailed version of the policy objectives appears in the weekly city manager's report yep that's what I was referencing but you're totally right well I let me also say let me also say this I think I I I think more people could be involved and more people could be studying what what goes on and I think the council could do a somewhat better job in communicating with constituents including districts yes but I want to say this I think a large number of people are plugged in and are seriously interested in the city and city affairs what could the again I I keep thinking of Glenn who used to be a representative from district three who held meetings in front of baguitos you know and they were walk-in meetings he knew where Glenn would be there and Glenn actually had people coming to see him what could console be doing differently I obviously council recognizes it's it's it's a problem or concern or I thought about actually I've actually thought about that a bit I think the council could go on the road the road would not be it wouldn't be much of a road they could take a walk down the street I think the council could probably organize itself to meet with informally meet with the so-called neighborhoods there is a neighborhood structure that came out of the I think it came out of the planning commission I think it I think it was Gwen Hall's miss idea a kind of a capital city neighborhood I think I think the council the council could could be like the ice cream show on wheels I think there could be they could move to different neighborhoods and be there and be accessible and people could feel people might might feel oh they've come to us that might change the dynamic now of course we're speaking of a council that's pre-covid yep so we're speaking of a council that's not on zoom you know and we're speaking of a council that actually has physical meetings that people can approach well I understand that I'm you asked me for an idea no this is an idea go on the road meet them where they are have a you know maybe maybe meet them in a restaurant maybe meet them in a in a community center or a library or a home meet them where they are and listen to them I think I think that I think that the you know we're not all wired to be standing up to the council at a formal meeting and standing in front of a microphone and addressing a council not everybody not everyone is confident of doing that it feels that you might be you know you feel you might be judged when you're in that kind of situation and there are a number of people that don't want to be judged but they have a view about the city so we need to make it easier for them to communicate with us and for us to communicate with them one of the issues that that people have been up before council on is the question of policing in Montpelier particularly defunding the police as it's called years ago you were involved in in a police issue tasers if I remember correctly what was your thought in terms of how responsive the city was to citizens like yourself who had a concern on how policing might be done in the town well I was I was involved as editor of the bridge I wasn't involved as a voter and taxpayer I was involved in my role as editor of the bridge and I I had a I had a platform the paper was a platform there was an editorial page and I was on the editorial page trying to write my truth I hope informed truth but my truth about tasers and I was I was in opposition to tasers and I remember I actually have a memory of the meeting in which the council drew back from drew back from authorizing tasers I remember I remember uh mary hooper at that meeting and I remember who was the mayor at the time yep mary mary hooper was mayor and I remember I remember the critical moment when she said I don't she didn't stand against tasers she says we can't guess we can't go forward now she'd heard we she'd heard enough community uh conversation some of it passionate and there were other people by the way the community was divided on that issue do you feel that tony fakers who was the police chief at the time uh was listening to people who were questioning his judgment on tasers there was a subcommittee or a committee there was a citizens committee uh like I remember there were two chairs of that committee but tony was there and tony was active tony was tony was he had his point of view but he was active and he was listening yes do you find the police and the people who are talking about structural change in the mount pilier police department that's not an issue that's going to go away what is your thought on that uh my thought on that is a little it's a little bit uh I'm not all over the map but I don't I don't personally want to send a message to the police that they don't have our confidence and our support now I'm going to follow with a however however uh I am not fully informed about the details surrounding at least two deaths that I'm aware of recently and in washington county there have been other there have been other which two deaths are you speaking of well there was a former student of Montpelier high school uh who had something he was waving uh it might have been probably it may have been a my memory of what he was waving is not clear but he was seen to be a threat and a lethal threat to the kids inside of the school and he eventually got surrounded and taken down that was one incident right then there was uh someone who was uh I think a resident of pioneer apartments and uh had was struggling with uh this is not mental health issue and and on the bridge on the bridge there at the roundabout right and I I think he lost he lost his life in uh an incident involving the police do you feel the public was concerned in both cases I recall that do you feel that the city and the police handled the public response to that uh in a sensitive and responsible manner or is there a way that they could have handled it differently that that you feel would have helped you know I would have to say this first of all I was concerned second of all I didn't feel I'd had the moment of interaction like the moment we're having now where two people in this instance can sit across a table and talk face to face and offer follow-up questions I don't think that happened I don't think there was that kind of a revealing exchange I'm not talking about I'm not talking about trying to embarrass somebody I'm talking about a revealing and hoped for candid exchange between the public and the police I'm not certain that event happened do you feel that a civilian police review board would hasten that kind of interaction that's under discussion it's well under discussion I believe it depends on whether it's seen and whether it's simply a projection of a rancorous projection of people who are discontented and are trying to create trouble if it's seen as a no confidence vote in the police and coming from an angry rancorous place I think it would probably fail and it might not even be instituted but there needs to be some format that's devised where citizens and the police and the administrators can talk and have the same facts and agree to the same facts and talk to each other I mean there are there are such I had a I had a situation with the bridge in which one of our employees was found to have embezzled some some some money quite a bit of money actually and there is a mechanism in the city that is short of it that it's meant to take the place of incarceration and there is an opportunity for people to sit down in a quiet place and have a difficult exchange and that happened with the person who had embezzled quite a bit of cash from the bridge and I've got good news he repaid every penny of that and that came out of that discussion so the process worked yes it did is is there any other issue besides the police where you see that that kind of communication just isn't there the planning board they you know our city works department is there any other circumstance besides police where you see that an alternative communication that's perhaps more human in it I think that was the word that you used would be beneficial well I don't know I mean there I I think there have been discussions I've been in Hubbard Park recently because it's a great place to so during COVID it's a great place to be you can walk you're safe you're getting some exercise you're not threatened by cars you're threatened by dogs you are threatened by dogs that's what I was about to say but there was there was a quite a bit of feeling I think attached to the presence of animals in the park and how that's going to be how that's going to be worked out and I think I don't know whether it got worked out to the satisfaction of all the people involved but I think the meetings did probably produce a working agreement of how things are going to go in Hubbard Park so that was another good example I think is there an unmet social issue in this city or under bent social issue that you can see that we really haven't addressed well you know there are a ton of people in town who vote in presidential elections and vote when there's a when there's a well financed and consequential governor's election or federal election a U.S. senator congressman they vote in they tend to vote in these elections but I have I have been aware that voting in simply a local election does not always attract the sort of voter turnout that one might wish it did attract and I think you know we we actually we actually asked somebody on the staff of the bridge to go and talk to to go out and talk to some voters and find out whether they were voting whether they were not voting and to be candid and tell us why and it was one it was one of the it was one of the better or at least one of the most memorable stories I think I can remember being published because it was so revealing and there were there were some people who were not voting who absolutely should have been voting because they were smart people and they were they were deeply involved intellectually in civic affairs but they were disgusted disgusted why I can understand indifference but disgust is a much I think more charged word I think it's I don't I don't think I don't think we're putting the the handlebars with the grip points I don't think we're you know when you're when you're when you're trying to get across the moat that surrounds city hall some people need some people need a hand in you know I think that not everybody is is is energized to to deal with the interface at city hall where the people on the other side of the desk have a great deal more information than you do and yet you have a question I remember doing a story this was a long time ago I was doing a story in Norwich of all places Norwich Vermont and I came to the end of the road and I knocked on the door and a fellow let me in and he was running a farm and one of the last farms in Norwich seemed to be a pretty rich town in in Vermont across from Dartmouth College and he actually lived in a he lived in a house with a dirt floor he invited me in we sat and talked and he had a lot to say about his civic interactions and I remember his saying to me that that he got up he got up continuously got up and got up and talked and got up and talked he didn't happen to be somebody who supported the substantial rises in educational costs that were changing the dynamic of what it meant to survive and in the only part of or one of the only parts of rural Vermont left in in Norwich he was he was he was struggling to survive on a farm in a place where most of the farms were gone and he said I used to go to the meetings and I felt outclassed outclassed the people people educated people college college types educated people in college types with with with maybe a maybe a maybe a better grasp of something of theory or or argumentation were there and they were talking and he felt that he wasn't being listened to he wasn't being respected I I remember that I remember that that meeting with him and I was thinking well that caused me to think quite a bit and I think that sometimes the pace of conversation and dialogue and argumentation and the wealth of of facts is so is so dizzying to people who are sitting there on a on a fold-up chair that they feel they can't participate or that if they did participate they would be judged I will be talking to every candidate in this cycle as I talk to every candidate in every cycle and in our conversations there is no sense of blood sport in politics there's no sense of theater in politics you look on the national level and it's it's framed in that that us versus them is that possibly a problem for people focusing in on the local is it the lack of drama oh no I don't think it's drama I think it's uh I I taught high school and I remember and I think I would do it differently today if I was if I was teaching high school today I would probably run the same class quite differently because I've had quite a bit of time to think about it but I would ask students to come to the school theater and to stand on the stage and to memorize a speech and to deliver it deliver it from the stage to their peers and my memory of that was that for certain people that was an agony that was that was a deep agony and I've come to think that I was perhaps unfair not in not in not in bringing people to that ability but in not providing them a ladder to get to the platform onto another ladder that would get them to that ability to speak in public it's a terrifying thing for some people so how do we step them into the civic process if they're not prone to engage sometimes all you have to do is you know it's easier when it's when there's no audience it's easier if you're easier on zoom no I don't think it's easier on zoom I think it's it might be easier for some people on zoom but I think I think the easier the easiest ways of communicating are one-on-one friendly and where the person is in an environment they're either they're at work and they have some control over their environment it's their environment and it's it's it's not a it's not a public environment it's not a theater environment it's not a taped environment there aren't a whole crowd of people there there isn't a secretary and two other aides there to bring in more information so the so there's there's a there's feeling of of conceivable friendship or if not friendship at least good will in that setting and people feel that they can speak and it's a trust that people can trust they trust that setting to begin with they need to be in a setting where they're not where they're not taking too many risks civic Montpelier is on hold right now during the COVID how do we rebuild civic Montpelier particularly downtown as once the vaccine comes and we feel a little bit more ready to walk amongst each other how would you see Montpelier projecting itself in the future for people wanting to come here come here and be and and enjoy it and be tourists or come here and what respect perhaps come here to live perhaps come here as tourists oh i see what what do you see as fetching about Montpelier that we would market for people who want to come here well you know when i started and by the way i had a i tend to write in drafts that's the way i tend to write i write a draft i put it aside i go into something else i come back to it i change it and that depending on the complication of the piece and the sensitivity of the piece i'm you know i might go to one two three or even more drafts or have somebody else look at it and then write it again but i began to write a campaign statement and the piece that i began with isn't even in the statement but i'm going to share it with you i was new to vermont in the 70s when i came up here to teach school in Randolph and i remember breaking off and coming to Montpelier and it was spring it was late may and it was gorgeous and the trees were out and people were in the street and i had a chance encounter in front of the pavilion on the street with with jim jeffords whom i didn't even know at the time was attorney general and we just had a we just had a friendly exchange on the street and i remember that exchange enough that i wanted to write about it it as a part of my campaign because for me that suggested that i was coming i was going to settle in a place where that kind of a chance encounter was possible and and i've had you know since then i've had many chance encounters and many many people not they don't always stop and talk to me at the street not always stop and talk to them but that's possible that's possible here i think i think if people caught that idea about what it means to live in vermont which in many ways on our best day is uh is an extended family they would want to be here the small town that you've dreamed of living in now we've gone our time and i really want to thank you two things i say this to everyone that's absolutely true thank you for running for stepping out of your private life to seek office and thank you for appearing on this show and that's my segue to saying thank you for watching this show and i'm encouraging again not only to watch this show but watch the others as well we've got really good candidates running for all of the offices they're good shows watch jim murphy the president of the school board discussed the school budget bill phraser talked about the city budget and does a magnificent job talking from the mayor's perspective about the montpellier that we live in talking to you about things you didn't know about things you thought you knew about and things you should know about but most important get out and vote make sure when that absentee ballot comes return it filled out not only that but if you don't return it filled up go on town meeting day it's so important during these times that we keep our participation up and even build our participation so thank you for watching this show good evening