 I'm joined by Charles Brewer, CEO of POS Malaysia, the Malaysian postal operator. Charles, welcome to voicemail. Let's talk about sustainability in the postal sector. What are some of the main innovations that from your perspective can help the postal sector achieve net zero or as close to that as we can get? Yeah, it's tough. I think the short version is very tough, but there are a lot of things I'm good to see, by the way, Ian, and you're looking fantastic, if I may say so. But I think a lot of things are coming, a lot of things are changing. So I talk a little bit from our perspective, and I think it's hugely different depending on where you are in the world. So I think many, many other markets are miles ahead of where Southeast Asia is in terms of sustainability. So we're coming from a fairly embryonic environment, but to the point and to the question. So certainly from POS Malaysia's perspective, when we launched our sustainability roadmap, we covered under sort of six work streams and two or three of them, I think, played directly to your questions. So first and foremost, delivery methods. So to give you to share a story, when we first started, only a year or so ago, when we first started talking about this subject, and we looked out into the Malaysian market and said, right, who has electric vehicles in Malaysia? Which vendors exist? There was one, one vendor that could do two-wheel and no vendors that could do four-wheel electric vehicles. So to your point, and just in that 12 months, the scenario here has changed beyond recognition. Now, multiple vendors providing two-wheel, multiple vendors providing four-wheel, and to your point, many, many other sort of alternative delivery methods coming down the track, whether that be cargo bikes, I know they've been around a while. So you can hardly argue that they're innovative in some respects, but from a Malaysia perspective, they're hugely innovative. Three-wheelers, SingPos, for example, have been using three-wheelers for about the last 12 or 18 months, but in Malaysia, they don't exist, and they haven't even been approved by the road agency just yet. So I think number one is in terms of delivery methods, huge change coming in Malaysia for all of us. And I'm really proud and super proud that Post-Malaysia has taken the lead both on what you would call traditional two- and four-wheel EVs, but also looking at sort of three-wheel and four-wheel cargo bikes, clever on in terms of their wonderful autonomous electric vehicle, that'll be here hopefully fairly soon too. So I think there are a number of different methods that are going to come down the track for places like Southeast Asia and Malaysia over the next 12, 18 months, and that's a good thing for everybody concerned. Then the second one is technology. So our second workstream is around optimizing the delivery network. So again, not necessarily so innovative for some countries, telematics and things like that have been around orchestration and been around for a while, but it was not so long ago, five, six, seven years ago, and there were many, maybe one or two vendors. Now there are sort of 50 to 100 vendors, and that technology being used in Malaysia and in Southeast Asia to create highly efficient and safe, which is the other big piece of telematics, which most people miss. It's not just about having an environmentally better footprint, it's about having a safer route in the first place. So things like telematics are changing significantly, even in terms of the functionality and what they do. So for me, before we get on to solar panels and many other bits besides, those are probably the two big ones for us because it's such a big piece of our sustainability roadmap. It's interesting you mentioned a number of vendors that are able to offer the electric vehicles. Do you think that POSMALAGE's interest helped stimulate the market in general, and therefore other carriers are going to benefit as a result? Yeah, definitely, 100%, and I'm okay with that. I'm very pleased about that. We talk about it quite often, and we have a fantastic relationship with the government and the ministry that looks after us and the regulator, and we've talked about it often that countries like Malaysia, and there are many others besides, I hasten to add, many first world markets, but they're crying out for lighthouse examples. Companies that the government and others can turn to and say, they did it, you can too. Like I said, I'm super proud of the work that our sustainability team have done, but I think for the wider good, I think many other companies will follow, which is really cool. And it's interesting when, again, not to tell our story too much, but a year and a half ago when we started this, and I asked a very large consulting house who was presenting to us and many others on sustainability, I asked them, who is the lighthouse? Who is the go-to company in Malaysia for us to look at around things like solar panels or building energy management systems or waste? All the other activities that we haven't talked about, but where do I go and have that conversation to learn from them? And they said they don't exist, not in Malaysia. And so like I said, I think it's a really good thing for us, but it's a really good thing for the government and others to be able to say, okay, look, post-Malaysia with 6,000 two-wheel vehicles and another 3,000 four-wheel vehicles and other 200 trucks are heading down this route, 600 buildings with solar panels on it, et cetera, et cetera. I think it's great for them to use as a poster child for other companies to follow. And again, I'm really keen and proud about that. I think that's a good thing. They just said this idea of they did it, we can too. And there's always a but associated with that isn't there. And the but is how do we pay for it? And given that there are straightened financial circumstances for some postal operators, how can they take some steps down this road towards whether it's just reducing emissions or even a more ambitious target and not, you know, have to have their hand out to government or break the piggy bank? Yeah. So I mean, post-Malaysia again, not unlike others has its fiscal challenges. And when I first walked into the boardroom and in front of my CFO even and talked about our sustainability plans, they looked at me with a head slightly crooked over to the right, saying, are you sure? And so because it because by definition, it kind of has connotations of this in the cost is a lot of money. Now, normally, I would say that's probably correct. But I think it's really important. And I was speaking to Portugal post about this when I was at the post and parcel forum to the CEO and to others who were asking me about our journey. I think it's there are ways that you can skin the cat and what we're really lucky. So whilst there are not so many vendors or there weren't so many vendors now there are more, if you ask the question, hey, how can I turn this capex problem into an apex opportunity? From our experience, the answer is yes. And because, and then, you know, if I sat back in another time, I was thinking, this is really fantastic, you know, we've taken what would be a really big cash flow fiscal challenge and turned into a real opportunity and at a lower cost than ice vehicles, by the way, which is a whole different story and different discussion. But when I first asked the question, I wasn't anticipating that we would get that sort of response. But if you think about it, many of these companies that we're talking to in telematics or vehicles or solar panels or waste management systems or BEM systems or whatever else are startups themselves or two or third year startups, and they're looking for also for poster childs to be able to tell their story to others. So having Post Malaysia on your books as they took 6000 bikes or 3000 bands or 600 buildings with solar panels helps their story and narrative too. So ask the right question, find the right vendors, find the right partners, people that have the same sort of purpose as yourselves trying to do the same thing as yourself and ask them the difficult question about making an opaque solution at the right price and you'll probably be surprised at the response you get. Now we've talked about the Post, we've talked about suppliers, we've talked about even government and regulators. What about customers and even end consumers? What's their response been to Post Malaysia's push in this regard, especially if it sounds like you're a bit of a ground breaker in the Malaysian market? What's their response been? Good, I mean the short version and really really positive and I'll give you two stories to illustrate it both one internal one external, I was in Malacca which is a heritage city two weeks ago and we just started delivering our first four-wheel EVs. So we have two-wheel EVs in the market already and we just started rolling out our four-wheel EVs and I was down in Malacca which is a great city, one of my favorite in Malaysia and I was talking to the head of operations there and as I was standing there three couriers and two Postmen ran over and said when do I get mine and it's really fascinating and I was telling this to somebody else the other day when we first started doing this just like my CFO and just like my board even our employees were saying hold on Charles is this really a good thing to do and I got lots and lots of questions at town halls around the cost of the units, is it you know will they go up hills will they go down hills will they go through rain floods puddles and whatever else but now because we're three four months in there and people are talking about they absolutely love it so internally the heart and mind is one, for the most I'm sure there's a few laggards out there but generally speaking I think that's one to your question though externally and this is you know equally as pleasing if not more pleasing in some respects customers and and Malaysians will stop my Postmen and couriers who are delivering in these electric vehicles on the road to take selfies with selfies a huge thing in Malaysia so they take selfies with the vehicles and post them on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and other places so I see lots and lots of images so I think generally speaking I haven't had any of the negative generally speaking the response has been hugely positive now the question is you know the zillion dollar question is can you commercialize that enthusiasm and will it will it be commercialized going forward I think that's still to be answered don't know we'll work through that over the next few months of years but that's kind of not what we why we're doing it in the first place but lots of chatter about whether you can charge more for a clean and green delivery as opposed to a traditional but we'll cost that bridge in time to come I'm sure well it is a very important issue for our sector and it's great to hear that post Malaysia is taking steps to be a good corporate citizen and help the environment. Charles Brewer CEO at Post Malaysia thank you very much for joining us joining us on the UPU voicemail podcast today. Thanks Ian take care