 Hi, this is what's happening. My name is Sandy Baird a local citizen of Burlington like all of our not all of our Colleagues live in Burlington, but they live in the great state of Vermont, and I'm with Mark Estrin and Kurt Mehta And Pete Garretano and all of us are observers of the present state of the world What and the great And the great Ian Stokes who is our technician Thank heavens for him And anyway, we are here to talk about what's been happening the past couple of weeks And I guess I will start today because I noted yesterday was Hiroshima day I don't know whether it's a day that we want to celebrate But it is the day that for the first and only time in the history of the world That an atomic bomb was dropped on two densely populated cities in Japan By the United States and that was in Hiroshima and then second in Nagasaki Destroying I heard yesterday a hundred and forty thousand lives with one bomb It virtually ended World War two I believe the rationale for it given by our then president Harry Truman a Democrat Was that we needed to do that so that the United States did not have to invade Japan A lot of controversy about that that was the official narrative I think we all should commemorate this day not celebrate up But remember that it would it had it was the first and only time that any country has ever dropped an atomic bomb On anybody but in this case on densely populated Cities a very controversial thing to do many people feel that it was a war crime It certainly changed the nature of war Forever, but no other bomb has been dropped at this point atomic bomb on anybody it was the United States who did it first and Hopefully the only time it will ever happen again. Okay, so anybody else have anything to say Ian? The and those weapons are still with us and in a sense it seems that they're being kind of normalized I mean now there are I don't know. I've lost count maybe eight countries that have nuclear weapons at least one won't admit to it If you have it used to be if you have nuclear weapons You could sit on the Security Council of the United Nations, but That's gone by the wayside, but you know, there's talk of tactical nuclear weapons there's talk in the US of testing new designs of weapons there's the failure of the Missile Agreements between the US and and so not the Soviet Union anymore. It was now now with Russia And those Negotiations about possibly restarting those it is the start agreement and others. I think They're being held Accountable to by the United States anyway to whether China would join those agreements, but I mean that would Make three out of however many eight countries that possess weapons So I guess the point is that, you know, we're still living with these weapons. There are Issues that need to be addressed still to make sure that they never get used and that they don't Propagate any further Yeah, I'd like to make a little refinement on what Sandy said First of all the there were can you hear me? I don't yes The bombs that were dropped On Hiroshi and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the same bomb And when you talk about the bomb, it's rather Much more interesting to understand why there were two bombings and The Hiroshima bomb was a uranium bomb that was based on what is you know Was a rather simple design where you simply fired a piece of Uranium into another piece of uranium and together the pieces in close proximity and sort of crushed together Made for critical mass and it exploded And if people don't understand that all of that means critical mass is that each of these Gives off neutrons and when the neutrons start piling up Sufficiently because enough are brought in close proximity You get you that makes for energy and energy release the Nagasaki bomb was an entirely different animal and It was Almost the death of the Manhattan Project because people There wasn't enough uranium around to do a lot of bombs and it looked like plutonium the Nagasaki bomb was a plutonium bomb and And it looked like that would be the way to go but they couldn't get it to work why because when plutonium got to be fired down the same path of Uranium in the in that bomb design It predetonated Because it gave off as it was coming down It was coming down in a cloud of neutrons that plutonium was putting out And so you've got this little predetonation that Reduce the yield the explosive yield of the weapon and that almost closed down the Manhattan Project because It took a breakthrough to figure out a design entirely different from the gun barrel design of the uranium bomb and And so there was a whole question. This is very interesting and complex engineering that went into this and but Basically that second design Needed to be tested And so there had to be a second explosion right and there had to be that we're using this other and this This bomb was called fat man because the design of the plutonium bomb was much more spherical because all the Exploded sort of lenses were compressing a sphere in the middle of this circle and So fat man needed to be tested in C2 in in and that's and that's the only reason Why I mean the uranium bomb itself over Hiroshima Which probably also wasn't needed to end the war because we have lots and lots of documents Especially now that the Japanese were ready to surrender and that the only issue Was the status of the emperor and that that could have dealt with easily and that the whole business About we needed the bomb to end the war Was simply bullshit, you know a government bullshit It was also a shelter to the Soviet Union of our newly acquired strength exactly But still that could have been done with the uranium bomb and also it turns out that there was a you know that the Soviets were on to this whole thing. I mean it's sort of obvious To a nuclear physicist that if you bring enough critical mass together and that was shown in 1941 that when Fermi did his pile at the University of Chicago right under the football stadium there that you could do that that you would bring a critical mass together and Get a release of energy of In Fermi's case and in that situation experimental situation a controllable release Because he would put Admiyam Rods into the pile to absorb the neutrons But that you could do that. So after 1941 December of 1941 it was clear that this was doable, but it was also theoretically clear before that Ian has a question Well, yeah, I understand that at the time there was discussion about whether it was The correct thing to do was to drop these two bombs within the same week of each other on highly populated areas in Japan or the alternative would be Explode a bomb in some unpopulated minimally populated area And that would scare the daylights out of everybody the Japanese the Soviet Union everybody else I thought it had been tested hadn't it been tested prior to that Had them been hurt Yeah, I mean and the the uranium bomb was tested in alamogordo, but I didn't I was going to add Mark a question. How come the the uranium bomb was the uranium bomb was never Mark cur had a question What was tested at alamogordo was the plutonium bomb the uranium bomb didn't have to be tested It was clear theoretically that it would work And so so that was the big thing about alamogordo. Would it work or not? And if it worked, what would the energy release be? Okay All right, but you had a question You were going to ask something me. Yeah. No, no, you said I felt heard. I think answered asked his question didn't you curtain you have yeah, no mark mark just answered it Yeah, my question was historically in that historical context because It has been asserted over and over and documented that the Japanese were ready to surrender anyway Or had been communicating to the united states that they were about to surrender a would surrender And that harry truman did this primarily as curt said to a tip-off to the soviet union and to keep the soviet union at bay I think it happening in 1945 at a time when the soviet union and when Asia much in asia looked like there was going to be a communist victory for instance in china um That was one thing the second thing was the soviet union was in Pretty much in command of all of eastern europe by then and occupying eastern europe so that Harry truman probably was already plotting as was roosevelt as some kind of a way How are we going to control the soviets? How are we going to control the communists in asia? um, and then this became sort of a warning to the communist I guess nation not nations at that time, but to the communist movements that if you do this if you That they became the new enemy at that time and this was a way to say this is what we have against you It was the opening shots of the cold war. Wasn't it? It wasn't so much a warning As it was a strategy. Yeah to end the war before Right soviets got involved in the pacific war right right because Because as the as happened with the european war, there was a lot of claim soviet claim to You know, this is now our territory to korea Yeah, the soviets and the russians you know now they they do have this ongoing dispute with japan over i think they're called the sakhalin island sakhalin islands. Yes that are you know Populated now Oddly enough by a mixture of russian and china and i'm sorry japanese people And the soviet union declared war i think on japan right after the nagasaki bomb was dropped Yes, but that was encouraged by the united states united states wanted the russians to come in at that point against the japanese also, so I mean all i as i understand history that is also what happened But then the tomic bomb was like a warning to them Don't go too far in a way and the and the initiating Fight the initiating struggle began with the russians in the cold war and that that's ongoing it's ongoing right now I with the russians now not the soviet union I think another important, you know point just to make uh in terms of the humanitarian Scale of these weapons is that for close to 20 years after the uh the bombs the two bombs were dropped on japan Americans had very little visual footage That was uh available to them to see what the effects of these bombs were Largely until i think there was a book by an author named john hershey I think nearly two decades after the dropping of the bombs that really illustrated You know the the amount of devastation That individuals in those two cities actually experienced Right um So there was a fair amount of censorship hard to get around I mean the argument has always been that this was a war crime. I don't even think That it's an argument. How couldn't have I mean there was no necessity to do this Well, I mean there was there was a tremendous amount of footage of what was what had happened in the concentration camps Uh, that was available to americans to see you know right after the second world war But with respect to the the dropping of the the bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki There was a fair amount of censorship that you know precluded americans from being able to actually have You know a sense of visually what happened as a result of dropping the bombs It wasn't just you know a gigantic explosion You know, but uh people were scarred, you know, uh, and there were there were radiation sickness Cancers that you know continued for for decades after the dropping of those bombs I think the difference between atomic weapons nuclear weapons and If you want to call them traditional weapons, I don't know if there's anything traditional for instances about the fire bombing of german cities Uh, however, even the fire bombing of tokyo resulted in more deaths than the individual dropping of the two bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki But is it but isn't the key difference is that with atomic bombs or nuclear weapons? Its nature is poisoned forever or for a very very long time Radiation exists radiation causes cancers And so I mean there's no as far as I can see very little healing that even can be done about With nuclear weapons. Did you want to say something pete or? I have no head mark. I'll talk after you. I just want to the idea that the Hiroshima and nagasaki were the only time that uh nuclear weapons were used Is a little bit Right. I understand because the the um The shells of Tank penetrating and in general high penetrating armaments are made from depleted uranium Is an alpha emitter emitter and So slowly puts out alpha particles and that in the in the uh environment of Any kind of war environment even if you're not using quote atomic bombs You are suffering from the radiation issues that the process brings up Right, and I rackies or rackies brought that up after the battle of feluja that there was a fair amount of contamination At the battle site and that's radioactive contamination. Right. I think there were even Even rumors that the uranium tip bullets were used in our firing range in under hill if i'm not mistaken in this state But I I understand that there is still that Yeah, nuclear weapons Or nuclear whatever uranium tipped weapons are still in use But the other thing they also seem to understand is there is either most nations have given up the idea of ever using nuclear weapons First Except the united states has not given up that but anyway people on to talk People Pete make the distinction between well he wanted a question. I think mark go ahead mark Uranium is a very common mineral it's a rock. It's in the ground and It's probably in your basement So uranium itself is not the issue There are In order to make what's called Clearly what's called weapons grade uranium There are two types. There are two isotopes of uranium One is you 235 Atomic weight and one is you 238 You 238 is generally what's in the ground Very little bit of it 0.7 Percent of what you get in the ground is you 235 And in order to make it a weapon Weaponized uranium you have to get rid of the 99.3 percent and concentrate the 0.7 percent of you 235 This is very difficult to do plus Usually the way you separate things is in the centrifuge and the weights are very similar so that you know Uh, it's just another It's a very difficult separation And that was one of the big problems in the Manhattan project on the uranium side of it Which was which which took place in Tennessee and uh The plutonium side of it took place in the washington state To separate out you 235 So It isn't uranium itself. It's not the issue It's what happens when you try to get the you third when you achieve getting you through third day drive out separated from you 238 Okay, and so this is at the center of another consequence, which is the purification of of uranium in in iran and I gather that just this Following coming week that our friend ali at abraham's who has quite a history term is going to go to the united nations To extend the sanctions against um Iran so that's another you know another way that nuclear weapons or the potential of them is still with us The other part of the story mark is that you talked about the uranium bomb and the plutonium bomb Of course, not many years after came the hydrogen bomb and the hydrogen bomb is hugely more powerful than the Certainly the ones that were dropped on japan So the destructive power was was huge and on those two cities in japan it would be even greater if a hydrogen bomb was was used And the difference between those bombs is that the uranium bomb And the plutonium bomb are fission bombs And the hydrogen bomb Uses as part Is a fusion bomb the hydrogen bomb is putting together to make tritium And using an atomic bomb inside that bomb shell to to make the explosion To bring that fusion together and to make it hot enough for that fusion to take place Okay, he just had a question mark. Excuse me. No you had a comment Well, two things one thing that's always kind of gotten me is of course the united states is always Going on and worrying about iraq's going to get nuclear weapons I'm not iraq iran's going to get nuclear weapons north korea is going to get nuclear weapons Their leaders are crazy And you just never know that they're going to use them in and like we've mentioned that We're the only ones that were ever crazy enough to drop a nuclear bomb. Okay, but nobody's ever said that you know like like that truman was crazier than Any of these guys because he actually did it So that's something that I always think is kind of funny when we talk about other leaders being They're crazy and they might drop a bomb the other interesting thing. I think that this ushered in besides the power struggle was Wars in the past um Mainly killed combatants and this has changed over time and I read something where war war war one Like only 10 percent of the people that were killed were not Actually warriors. They were you know women and children and just side casualties and that has slowly gone up over the years Well, this was the first time ever that there was a mass We're just killing everybody And it wasn't a combatant issue. It was just wiped people out Kind of ushered in this thing which which we then followed through with our the iraq wars and just Just bombing the hell out of the innocent people and then it wasn't about combatants It wasn't about the crazy leader or the warriors It was just let's just kill a bunch of people now saying it hadn't been done before but this is the first time The united states in mass. I mean literally killed probably 95 of the people were non combatants that we killed with the bombs Well, there were the fire bombs of world war two over the german cities But I out and those were all civilians also But um, I think that you're right. There was just no way That the destruction in japan could have been considered in my mind against combatants It was against cities densely populated cities of japan And that came and that was courtesy of a guy named kurtis lemak Right, right, right general strategic strategic bombing. That was the name of it as opposed to Targeted bombing strategic bombing was taking out whole cities and whole populations and the guy who ran that through The air force general who ran that through was kurtis lemak and kurtis lemak's ideas anyway Were what created strange love the character of dr. Strange love Was modeled on the ideology of kurtis lemak who who started this idea of strategic bombing Just take the whole wipe the whole thing off the other side has everybody seen that movie among all of us I've seen it a million times. I think you recently showed it again mark. Didn't you someplace? It it will this coming thursday. Well, it's it's available now free. I believe Uh on if you go to the uh from v-tip site ramon The national film festival It's part of this series and i'm going to be talking about strange love On thursday this coming thursday on a zoom thing Yeah, what yeah, I guess it's a zoom You can get into and participate in If you go through the v-tip Vermont international film festival website. It's a little complex Because you have to buy a ticket and all of that but the tickets are free So anyway, there's a film series and you can see it now and you should see it before next thursday So yeah, I've seen I have seen it a million times. I love that's my favorite thing. Anyway, some of the cuba files on this panel I mean lame also placed heavy heavy pressure on president kennedy to go out And conduct an all-out war against the soviet union, you know during the missile missile crisis in cuba Well, not only an all-out war against the soviet union, but it would have amounted to a nuclear war. Yes, which would About cuba Dr. Strangelove was kissinger. I didn't realize it was I thought it was verner von brown He is Plays a nazi Who came after the second world war here? He is actually strange love, isn't he mark? No Verner von brown was Involved only with rocket propulsion. Yeah, right. He's the character in strangelove, isn't he? The peter cellar's character Uh, dr. Strangelove has a german accent, right? No, it's a mixture of a whole bunch of things But verner von brown himself was was a propulsion engineer. Yeah Was the key person in the whole v2 You know end of the war the magic weapons the uh of hitler that we're going and and was very important And then he was obviously Rescued, but of the united states grabbed over here and became a very important figure in our development of Rocketry and and nasa. Yeah, right. So any other topics to be covered this? I think someone wanted in relation to that What's happening in beirut? We mentioned iran And we mentioned beirut. I mentioned beirut. Apparently there was a huge explosion in beirut a couple days ago massive amounts of death and destruction It has been mainly Discussed as an accident. So is that correct or not? What do you think the narrative that has been put out? But now it's that narrative is starting to break down was that there was a There was a russian ship about seven eight years ago. Uh, that was uh That had headed out from a black sea seaport uh from georgia and was destined for mozambique and it stopped in uh beirut to pick up some additional heavy machinery to transport and that was uh The ship was having financial issues And they couldn't pay the the russian and mixed uh ukrainian crew So they stopped in beirut to pick up this additional machinery to transport the mozambique I think the mozambique and that would have allowed them the additional monies to pay their crew apparently there was some issue with the machinery and The ship ran into further financial problems and they were unable to pay the crew They were unable to pay port fees in beirut And allegedly the the government of lebanon confiscated the ship And put it, you know and kept it out in the harbor and again allegedly The ship had a large amount of ammonium nitrate stored about 27 2700 tons of it And it's been sitting out there for seven years Now somehow it ignited and caused this explosion Right, that's that's the narrative that's been put out, but uh, again a competing narrative that the the president of lebanon has just put out today is that They're they're also looking into potential external Causes like a bomb Well, they're saying external causes that may have set off this uh, this uh, ammonium ammonium nitrate storage on this ship 16 people were taken into custody Just in the last 20 I thought those people were lebanese who may be accused of negligence Is that correct or not? Now this is I mean, this is a criminal investigation Into what kind of negligence? This is not simple negligence. Right, okay All right, anyone else have any thoughts? Yeah, on that This explosion was actually Involved about 10 times more Ammonium nitrate than the the one in in oklahoma city that um brought down a federal building some years ago Actually that was I think that was nitrate mixed with diesel fuels but it was um, you know, that that was a very destructive bomb that was um In you know, it was a lot smaller than the one in lebanon, but the um, I think there are two important questions about The the explosion in in Beirut First one is why was the cloud that rose from the explosion such bright orange? So that implies there was some other chemical or explosive involved and and then the other one which kurt was really pointing to is the You know, you can have this stuff sitting in a warehouse for what was it seven years or more seven years? and and so what What triggered the explosion and that of course is very difficult to determine so yeah still unknowns even even if we accept the whole narrative about the um The cargo on the ship being stored in and I mean, I guess on second Oh Yeah, we lost you in can you And we lost you are you? Oh I just turned off my microphone. I'm I'm done. Thanks. Okay. I wanted to say something It's interesting to me that there's always an ongoing war in lebanon Um, and I don't think americans at all And I don't either understand the nature of that war, but I will say that I work in the In the african association here in bramon And when I when we're talking about this with africans And when I talked about it with them the beirut thing both of them said it was an attack Now that has not been the narrative anywhere here And although trump initially said it was an attack didn't he? So does he know anything or is he uninformed about this? Is there any possibility that this was an act of war? Against lebanon. I mean there have been other attacks on lebanon and the accusation is is that lebanon has I guess terrorist groups within lebanon correct or hezbollah is within lebanon That's been accused of being a terrorist group or an isis group Is there any Thought among any of you or have you seen anywhere that this could have been an attack on lebanon? But pete pete go ahead. Um, my thought is that We've discussed this before friendly mark would say this there's very few accidents And this is a big accident And so if I was the king or what the leban who is the prime minister president president I was the president of lebanon the first thing I would suspect is some kind of sabotage The difficulty is there's probably 20 different groups of people who are all Like what they would consider radical people that might do this So it's probably a pretty tough thing to try to figure out whether it could be the masada could be the ci It could be 18 other groups of people that were Said hey, look at this. There's a bomb inside of this building. All we have to do is ignited We don't even have to make a bomb, you know, and that's what it is. I mean, it's the stuff sitting there, but Right the fertilizer is since Oklahoma City. We've all learned I didn't know before that that fertilizer is pretty close to being a bomb, you know And I don't really know how it's ignited to tell you So it's you though. It's your opinion. I think pete them that there's no coincidences No, this is a big accident I mean, and I agree with Ian that that cloud that came above that thing. I mean, maybe that's just what happens when you have that much Fertilizer, I don't know There's only one Person that I've seen online Who talks about something that's rather An obvious thing to talk about anyway, not necessarily the case Which is the The question of israel Who has, you know, had a long term? destructive relationship with lebanon They they invaded the country they invaded lebanon in 1982 and occupied it until 2000 and then there was a war with hezbollah in 2006 So, you know, in israel has been attacking lebanon and syria and syria, right But this is we're talking about lebanon and so if you ask the coupy bono question It's very interesting to me that nobody except richard silvestine on his blog Has suggested that, you know, who benefits from it is israel and Israel itself has had a rather interesting reaction They of course Have denied it Nothing to do with it And they want to send aid to lebanon medical and technical aid and to Work with the survivors And they put up this It's a wonderful photograph of they lit up the whole side of the Capitol building with an Lebanese flag the windows like, you know in israel in israel israel, yeah, uh, and this is All of this is very nontipical Um Of the way, you know, israel usually celebrates its victories and um They don't celebrate an offer to aid and all of that. So maybe that's what has discouraged people from discussing But Now i'm gonna but but is it is it true or not that For years. Well, this is this is what one theory that I saw was that israel would love has been also Lobbying blows recently at iran itself, right? It's it's it's cyber stuff, right? Is that correctly in neither confirmed or denied which means that you never really know But israel And the united states seem absolutely committed to Having at least regime change in iran, right? And syria that what Is that and look like it in lebanon Yeah, that's what I mean, but they also both countries Accused lebanon of harboring terrorist groups, correct? With like as well. I mean i have said hezbollah as a terrorist group, right? I'm with support from supposedly. I mean, I think evidently from iran. So there's a connection Between Iran So that policy then um Would seem that what both our country and israel seem intent on At least hurting iran big time. So these groups within lebanon are also considered pro iran, right? Yes, and in syria too, right? But but sandy, I mean, I have a question but if by targeting a ship that was out in the harbor I mean, this isn't necessarily a strategic or surgical strike against hezbollah. I mean, I know You know unless hezbollah's headquarters happen to be next to the ship Uh, so, I mean what what would what would it would be? It will have certainly it's going to probably destroy a lot of lebanon is point right Yeah, but not necessarily the targets that they would the you know the usual targets, right? I don't know. I don't know the explosion seemed relatively, you know in terms of the damage. It was relatively indiscriminate Right except that lebanon is in really bad shape obviously the whole country So but I mean is this the typical thing where you know they want because there have been protests now that have gone on in lebanon the last couple of days To have the you know the government step down Yeah, there was the lebanese lebanese people actually put out a petition I wonder who put this out that lebanon should be reclassified as a french mandate and they got 50 8000 people to sign it. Well, I bet the french don't want it. Yeah, right. Well, macron is there, but I mean I just don't know I don't Is the hope like like in cuba liking so many other places that the lebanese people are going to rise up and overthrow the government All i'm saying is it seems like a very big attack on lebanon itself And again, who benefits from that? Is the as a key question and I guess we'll have to see as it goes along But as pete said and mark, I don't believe there are many accidents of this magnitude Magnitude in history. I really don't but maybe i'm wrong. But anyway, so Um, I think also does anybody else have anything? I think pete had a little report on coven. Didn't you pete? Well, I mean I I read government stuff every day and it's I think we all Have government stuff u.s. Government stuff. You and what? wHO or cdc their latest guidelines or changes in their guidelines and it's just I mean there it's it's funny because they're just all over the place, you know and And some of the things that are very frustrating. I actually have a i'm going to have a conversation with the Director of cobit from the vermont health department today She wants to talk with me on the phone because I asked like three important questions of her And for some reason she didn't want to email me back But I'm glad that she's she's calling me because I'm going to have a conversation with her But it's just funny, you know, they make statements. Of course, they made the statement a couple months ago Absolutely, don't wear a mask mask. Don't do your new goat. Don't put a mask on then we went to mass well in that now today they're waffling on Testing people and aren't sick, which has been one of my arguments Why would you go and be tested if you're not sick? So and they're saying now well, don't Yeah, if you're not sick if you don't have symptoms don't go in and get the test So and then part of this thing which came across I think it was wHO Was that they're saying now if you haven't had symptoms Either if you were symptomatic or asymptomatic positive and it's been seven days since you had symptoms You're okay. You can go out and be with other people. You're probably not contagious You don't have to get another test. So this is like a dramatic turnaround from what they said A month ago. So basically what they're saying now is you're cured Which is mind-boggling to me, but it's just a whole lot and and mark and and people were studying 9 11 There's just a whole lot of bad science going on right now And that's my frustration is reading this stuff and you're just like, oh my god You know, what are you talking about here? I mean, you know, you were saying this thing is scary and super infectious And now you're saying it's not really scary or super infectious. So And then you there's just so much stuff like that like pretty much daily that comes out that that is just It's very confusing You know, there was there was one yesterday in the new york times was just typical bad science reporting Where the south korea did a study that asymptomatic people were contagious Well, I read this thing three times And there's not one thing in there that says that has any good science about their their study It's like the kookiest thing you ever wrote this. It's just like rambles on and on It throws some numbers out, but it makes no sense whatsoever. So it's it's all, you know, maybe it's that's the the thing is The people that are doing these reporting of the science staff aren't scientists So they're just writers or journalists that are writing the gate got them a story and say here you write on this today so they don't do a good story We're they're trying to confuse people. I don't know Yeah, I want to mention how long did it take before we kind of got a handle on, you know, what Caused, you know, the hiv virus to spread and turn into AIDS It's I I mean as a as a school kid in the 80s. I felt like there were a number of years before We had an idea how the that disease was transmitted We still don't have an idea Don't look at you should read a book that Pete by the way, you owe me that book back It's it's still a lot of There's a whole book that Pete gave me called virus mania That talks a lot about the hiv aid situation that everybody should read Because I remember too and I remember even thinking at the time That there was a lot of confusion a lot of a lot of a mixed theories about it One of which is the one that's put forward in Pete's book that states that at that time gay men in particular were involved in Not their sexual activity so much, but that they were using drugs which appeared to destroy their immune systems a lot And that that was one of the reasons that of the spread are or the AIDS situation, but I think that that book is key and I'm asking you Pete. Where is it? It's sold out right now. I want everybody to read it. It's at my house. I'll give it back to you Okay, whenever I see you, but I guess I mean my point is just that you know that the novel nature of the virus, you know is leading to this confusion And you know, it's not an exact science because enough testing and enough Research hasn't been really done yet. I mean, we're about what about eight months into this at this point From the time when it was an issue in china But I guess yeah, but there's a lot of viruses that are new and they're going to be a lot more I don't want it. I don't want to belabor this thing After reading the main thing that you get out of there is it would be It is sometimes it's very hard to do a good experiment But other times it's not necessarily so hard and that it's almost seems like they're not really The powers to be aren't trying to do good science They aren't trying to like purify their experiments So they get a good result because that's what you know after reading this and you just kind of know about the proper method to try to Figure something out that they're really making no attempt and even when you read these things It seems the same thing. I mean you read it and go. What are you talking about? You know, it's just like this isn't a good experiment You're like it's like hearsay and do like crazy things, you know You like you read it and then they publish it and then they'll contradict themselves in like the same article like the WHR CDC in the beginning they'll say something and then three paragraphs down They'll say the exact opposite thing and so it it's it's really kind of frustrating to read this stuff Okay, Kurt, but you were going to talk a little bit about the google situation, right? All right google Yeah, I think I mean specifically It had to do with the the president just invoked his economic powers that he has and signed an executive order banning TikTok TIK TOK Which is a chinese application app company that's been very popular in a lot of the world and it's basically it's a video sharing Device for folks that aren't up on their apps these days So in terms of trying to post Something that they want to show to other people in mass If folks are familiar with youtube, it's something similar to that So if you film yourself doing something and you want to share it with a lot of people You put it on this app through you Send it into the uh, you know the blogosphere Through this tiktok app which you can download on your phone or your computer or You know any other kind of device now the objection that the president Stated as well as a lot of national security officers in this country Is that when you put that application on your phone if we want to use that as an as an example What that device is a what happens is that the application? Sucks information out of your device again, whether it's a phone or computer laptop whatever it is and It stores that information the information such as location Where places that you've been when you were using your phone? As well as websites that you have browsed And it stores that and the fear is that that information then because tiktok is owned by tiktok Is a subsidiary of a company that's owned by a a chinese firm that that information can be shared with the chinese government and The thinking is that if That happens People that are in security positions in this country and sensitive positions as well as in big business They could be blackmailed Because the chinese government can use that if they develop a dossier on a person And have a history of the types of things that they're looking at on the internet the types of things that they're doing on the internet And places that they're traveling to That they can potentially be used As blackmail against you know People of power in this country Whether it's in government or in business And that gives the upper hand to the chinese government now That being said Google apple as well as a couple of other companies have the same exact ability to do that But they're american companies. They're not chinese companies. So the fear is that the chinese communist party Has a great deal of authority over chinese companies and that they can make a discovery request And demand that tiktok turn over this information to their central committee And then that can be used for intelligence services. So it's kind of amazing that you know, these companies can actually have that kind of power and actually Get into your brain and see what you've been doing what you've been purchasing what you've been buying And the types of things that you've been doing and see and are you really surprised i'm not at all surprised By what part of it I'm not surprised because google and all those companies also censor stuff all the time Yeah, I mean they censored the president the other day, didn't they I mean, I mean, we're in this big brother society. That's not necessarily government controlled. It's Big businesses right but in this instance, you know, uh the the curb is You know that they want to put is on the chinese government Being able to do that and then in addition to tiktok. There's a uh, uh company called we chat w e chat It's also a chinese company and what the fear is is that that company Has the ability to track chinese nationals that are visiting the united states and see what they've been up to And that that would be reported back to the chinese government and the premise For banning that company And by banning basically american advertisers cannot place advertisements and and conduct any kind of commerce With either we chat or tiktok, which would essentially bleed those companies financially speaking and so the presidents asked that the uh That the assets of tiktok if if that company is to continue existing And that application continues to exist in the united states that they would have to sell tiktok Would have to sell all this all of its us assets as well as storage facilities to an american-based company So that so that they can spy on everyone and the government would get a big Correct the finders In the process. Yeah Well, they've already i mean i agree those companies have enormous control over us Yeah, whether it's tiktok, which i don't like but i don't like the fact that google and all those other companies have Equal control over us. They're doing the same thing results of the pandemic That's given them that kind of enormous power and the power to censor. Well, the power was already there. It's just You know accelerated During the course of the pandemic I just want to mention before i'm sorry pete go ahead Something about the sensory thing which i sent to sandy the other day, so i've been trying to get something published in vermont digger And i've written a couple things and then i wrote something the other day basically just questioning The testing for covet and and the contradictory things that i'm reading with the cdc and the who And i footnoted it with articles from the cdc who And the lady from vermont digger wrote back Sorry, we will not be publishing your piece because it does not adhere to the covet publishing guidelines right That happens on youtube too Remember that there were two doctors I wrote back and said what are the covet publishing guidelines and she never responded right well I doubt if she will Anyway, any final thoughts one of the things though that i really find troubling the most about the epidemic and the pandemic And the way that it has been treated is the absolute shutdown of our many of our political institutions Including the fact that city hall is still locked down. There's still no way to get into city hall Can't do a protest in city hall The libraries are still shut bars are open libraries or not And and that fact that the libraries are shut down city hall is shut down They're making plans to do the legislature remotely. I don't really get it. Those are our political institutions. They are They should be open and available and accessible to all vermonters and to all americans And I want to remind people that we have lost that ability to watch our government in action and also have any kind of Input especially into city hall and that's berlington. Well, that's not That is because of the epidemic. That is not true. Sandy. You can uh watch all the city council meetings I'm sorry to debate in them on zoom. No, it's not the same Mark that is not correct. I'm going to interrupt you you have to have a computer Right now. I don't have a computer that even works on zoom So think about all the people who don't have one at all How what is the overlap of that group? With the people who use the people don't have computers with the people who actually come to city hall I think that's a topic that we should study. We should study how many people are on zoom Okay, and I would guess it's a lot fewer than that used to go to city hall the week before this happened There were 200 people in city hall at a public forum protesting against Some kind of a resolution that was going to be passed concerning migrant justice 200 people who will not ever at this point be able to get into city hall again unless we make that demand A couple of weeks ago the discussion the public In the city hall in the city council went on for two nights with I don't get how many but like 300 I do know how many there were a thousand people who called in All right, so I know that because it was completely organized by people who are able to organize social media Fine. That was good of them. That was good of them I'm arguing that city hall should be open and people like us that pay taxes for city hall Should be allowed to go there and protest in person Anyway, that's my argument think about it. But anybody else have any final comments And I want the libraries open. I've told you that Ian a number of times, right? Okay, so a couple weeks. We might be back Yes, no, maybe what Okay. All right, so see you. Thank you all very much