 Podcasters round table round 154 finding untapped Podcast fans as I wrote that title. I thought to myself. I probably named An around that before so I'm gonna have to go look that up Dave can scour the archive We're sitting here. Don't do that Dave. Don't waste your time But it's because we're talking about one of the stories. We'll be talking about is Um Different ways to find podcast fans. I'm not sure it's what the story was about but that's what I took from it So we'll get into that. It's everyone's favorite topic. How do I grow my show? How do I find more listeners? So we're coming back at you with another one of those that in gear Dave if we just talk about we just talk about gear and marketing we'd probably be one of those Nominated shows another tease we will get to that as well. Let's meet The round table including I think two new roundtablers. So co-host Dave Jackson Obviously not new to the show. Welcome back bud. Yeah, glad to be here Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting calm all right and No, well, welcome to your first round table. Yeah, thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here Thank you so much for the invite. My name is Noel co-host and creator of hidden gems a film podcast Very cool a film podcast. Do you do reviews? Is that what that is? Yeah? Yeah, what we do is it's a little twist on the review because we don't do any spoilers But what we do because we're hidden gems we We recommend and Talk about underrated and under appreciated films Whether they're kind of just under the radar for whatever reason or they're you know fantastic films that people have forgotten about We go ahead and we talk about it So we don't spoil it because we want people to go out and see it But that's what we do. So we talk about underrated and underappreciated films Awesome. Well, if you're listening to this and that peaks your interest check that out That's how we find here. There's one way to grow your show, right? Get on the round check check done. All right. Hey and another new round table or Roger welcome. Hey everyone I'm Roger Nair and I'm the co-founder and CEO of jar audio and jar audio is a podcast production agency that works exclusively with brands to help them get into the podcast space and and We're a full service agency. So we do everything from strategies of production to distribution and everything in between Roger's sliding in on a technicality sort of usually you have a podcast to be on the round table Roger doesn't have one, but he's now a podcaster because he's a guest. So I think it qualifies But no, you work so closely with so many podcasts and in the space Yeah, I've read the articles on the site that completely qualify I think podcast adjacent is probably enough now to get on the round Yeah, I mean we're podcast Sherpas, but we're you know, we're we're just you know We're helping people into the knapsack and and and taking them up the hill. We're not necessarily climbing the mountain ourselves It's like a it's like a it's like a song where the artist doesn't tell you what it really means you for yourself So I hope everyone took something different. We're the passengers and you're the train, man The thing is if you're watching Live then you can ask those questions in the comments. We didn't make it clear for you So we like to be vague to intrigue interest and get engagement We're just podcast hacking here the live way which is gonna be a little bit of what we're gonna talk about too So I'm hinting at a lot of stories. Let's just start getting into those No, well, I'm gonna let you kick it off. You can pick well either one actually let's go with Let's go with the the very first one you have the virtual podcasting event. Well, what is going on with that? Sure? Sure, so as of right now, I believe actually this is the last day of a pod fest. So this is a convention it's a podcast convention and it is a fascinating space that Podcasters or people in the industry people who are interested in podcasting Whether they host shows or you know, we're on your train Roger they come in and They sign up to you know different events virtual events were they able to sit and watch very similar to what we're doing right now and You know listen to professionals People who have been in the industry for quite some time people who have skills and knowledge of podcasting to try to help the podcasting community and it's going on for a number of days and it's it's absolutely fantastic Dave you did you speak Dave this year? I did I had a talk Spent a hundred dollars on a microphone in a hundred hours getting to know your audience was my nice my topic and This is a lot of fun not sponsored. We're not pod fest sponsored. Yeah I also spoke at the event and it was first my it was my first time doing it and it was fantastic It really really well run event. Those guys are Amazing. I can't even imagine how tired they are at this point. So how did it work? How was it virtually as compared to like, you know, normally you'd be a podcast, right? Well, here's the thing I this is actually this month. It would make a year of me podcasting. So I'm coming up on my anniversary soon So I'm super excited about that Within last year. I was able to attend last year's podcast and it was the first one that was virtual because of obviously the COVID-19 so all I know is virtual Conventions I can imagine. I mean, I've been to other conventions before like New York Comic-Con and things like that. So It's very tangible But as far as the virtual aspect of it For me again, I didn't have anything to compare it to in regards to a live convention But it was absolutely informative. I learned so much Going into that convention I took away so much especially This year being my first year I was really able to come away and put a lot of Things in the skills and the ideas that I've learned into my show So I can't compare again live to virtual, but as far as the format is concerned, it was very organized I think this year was just even better. They learned a lot of lessons from last year to this year and Again, we're not sponsoring you know sponsoring it, but I can't sing it's praises any any more It's again just a fantastic fantastic time No, I gotta pop in here. You said you there were so much that you took away. What was your top takeaway? Oh my goodness Again, I learned so much because it was my first year. So one was how to grow the audience Two was how to Edit audio. I've never edited audio before this is kind of my first step into audio editing I come from a film background. I'm a writer and screenplay writer and I was for a former struggling actor, I should say and so this was kind of like the first step into any sort of Audio development whether again, it's podcast or radio would have you so I was coming in very good So any information that I got was just for me. It was just gold And again, what I took away most was how to engage your audience how to authentically market and again, how to kind of Develop your audio editing skills and microphone technique and things like that very basic 101 stuff But again for someone who's kind of just stepping in for into it and going You know what I want to make a podcast because I was thinking about it for many many many years And I finally kind of just jumped into it. It was just absolutely invaluable for me the I think the biggest difference is When you go to an event You are at the event. You're focused on the event and if you got kids They're handled if you got a job. They know you're not there, right? And so for me it was different because I was Doing my job as I was at the event. So that I had a hard time Going away to to watch presentations There were no drinking parties at night So that was and I did see where there were a lot of events and that was the only thing that I Had a lot going that's a problem again because I was home I had a lot of stuff that I could work on here Where if I was there and it's a lot that's gonna have to wait till I get home, right? And so there was a constant battle of of this or that and I know at one point I turned on the Hoover app and my Phone burst into flames. There were so many invites to stuff And I was like, but I did go to an event last night and it was I wish I can remember the platformer was air something and you walked in and You basically had speed dating it just matched you up with somebody and you had like the minute you both connected You'd like eight minutes to say what you did and that was really cool because that's the video miss It was video. Yeah, it was air Something yeah, whatever it'll be something else tomorrow. So yeah, it doesn't matter But yeah, so that so that was cool and they did a good job of sending people to the booths It's because you know, that's no sponsors. No no event trust me on that What do you mean sent you to the booth like meaning they had dedicated dedicated rooms Yeah, they had dedicated rooms. Yeah, and they would basically say hey at 930. There are no sessions Everybody go to a booth. I mean really really when you think about that like because this is a Problem we have to solve now, right because we have virtual men's but it's also going to be probably some type of hybrid model Something we're gonna move to in the future and you know, even the organization that I work for different ones I work with are struggling with Even events before COVID it was it's harder to get people to Big events I've seen niche events doing a little better But big events can be a trick and then sponsorships for that in a booth That's always how to get people but you know sponsors probably need to be more they need to adopt our model and become Content creators, right? So the sponsor like it should be sponsored Maybe sponsored talks, right? If you're Libs and you're Rob on stage Rob always talks, right? He's a walking infomercial for Libs and while not promoting Libs and He's giving you great content like I always go to Rob's talk even though I'm like I know everything Rob's gonna say and then I learned one or two things different because he gives great stats That's your almost your booth, right? Like it feels like because you know who you're not gonna a lot of boosts I'm not gonna go to but if there was someone from that company giving a great talk I mean Roger this might be I mean, maybe that's exactly what you're doing Roger No, I was I was giving a talk on the the three lessons I've you know, we've learned from working with with some of the world's biggest brands what when it you know With a podcast lens on it obviously, but you are you are also I mean you've got a you've got people's attention You are jar audio at that moment, right? Like the key is to give something people want. Yeah, learn about jar audio Yeah, and it's really interesting. I I didn't actually consider sponsoring the event because I actually I actually was I had a hard time nailing down Who that, you know who the audience was within that group because it would again I'll say that you know and I by no means want to knock them because I think that what they're doing is incredible But they've got this mission of being you know Guinness World Record breaking, you know the largest audience or the largest, you know attended Virtual podcasting event, which I think is amazing But at the same time it it almost kind of waters it down because it's just so big that it's hard to focus and and you know, I have the same problem kind of You know, I would actually say that you're kind of working from home and doing other things was was it was good it was good for me to Be able to kind of duck in and duck out but I also kind of found it being so big and so many options that the The ADD and me had a hard time kind of focusing and I would say from a from a marketing perspective as somebody who wants to get People's attention. I struggled to figure out kind of how to channel that out and where to find them and I and I in after my talk I jumped into the the exhibitors the exhibitors area and It was interesting because a lot of it was just brands playing YouTube videos of It was a demo. It was just a demo reel and then they were available to answer any questions And I thought I was have to be in there We're all on the podcast base like how could you not get in front of a microphone and turn your camera on and just talk You had a talk Yeah for asking, you know answering questions and stuff. So That's a failure of imagination on their part Especially if you're in charge of the Dave wait, I could be we could be just trashing Dave Dave did you have a booth that you had to? Well, I know there was a No, no, I know there was an area for that because I know we had a video they had it like a for the person's like What is this? You had like explainer videos of what you did, but no, we actually had a zoom room on nine at nine and One and four we would go in and we were demoing Libs and five We were answering questions, you know, and then in some cases we'd go You know on complete tangents into podcast land talk about whatever people wanted to talk about So I have I have a question Dave then and you may not know the answer But I'd be really curious to find out from like Rob or someone The difference like Could you did you know exhibiting live? I mean virtually? Just like no customers where as opposed You know, did you guys get the same that you would get at an in-person conference or was it a total flop for you? We can't save all sponsors, but yeah for someone who's exhibiting in a booth. I wonder, you know, because that's tough. I Think see it is tough because I don't you know, we have a booth We have a big backdrop We've got all the business cards out and people are coming to our booth and if nothing else They see our brand so do people sign up there or do you know if you're actually getting people we had a Promo code so if you use, you know podcast global that would get you a free month There and we had some people pretty much sign up right there. They're like hey, give me a demo you do a demo Okay, great. Where do I sign up? So that was cool. So it worked. I mean it did work Yeah, yeah, it's just a matter of the number of people It's hard to say the other thing. It's different is and this is what was so funny because we have a booth and You'd have five people come into your zoom room And I'm here to tell you it was one extreme or the other it'd be like, okay if you have any questions about Libsyn or Podcasting in general, you know, you don't have to turn your camera on if you don't want to turn it You just throw it in the chat and you would get and I'm here to tell you Crickets like nothing zip and you're like Okay, so what have you learned at podcast so far like so you had the ultra Introverts then the next booth time. Hey four o'clock air rolls around and you'd have somebody come in all cool lips and booth Hey, and they're just yip yip. Yeah, and they just this feels like it feels like running a live stream Like what's the difference if I show up if we show up to the round table with no topics. Yeah, that's not gonna be good Right. Yeah, we were ready. I was always ready to do a lips and five demo but we'd always start off with do you have any questions we could help you with and If they didn't any questions, I just go into a demo, but it was kind of interesting to have the fact that Nobody would even say no questions for me. Like it was just Nothing or it was oh my gosh I have so many questions and it's just you know captain bubbly. That's where you got to have like Breakout like zoom you know what platform break out like break have more than one person handling it And they're like, okay go with Dave. He's gonna answer that question Like you just got a bad idea about it, right? If it's if I did this in 30 seconds like these Yeah, so it was it was you know all in all it was you know, I'll be interested to see what the numbers are but You know, we had a fair number of people come through so it was cool Awesome. All right way too much time on a hashtag not sponsored conference potfest. We want some money No, but thanks Noel That is interesting and you know what I did have one of the quotes that I pulled from that article Said even though I had access to the recordings. I'm staying up late each night to watch them live Which I thought you know, this is something we hear and it's very interesting because There is something different about live. I mean being here right now. We do this live the round table And something about being in the chat is different now I failed hardcore and didn't put enough notice out so we don't have a probably don't have a big chat tonight That's my bad. What's new but There's something, you know, people have paid and they have access to the recordings but being there alive knowing that those people are there alive and maybe sometimes in the case of I Don't edit much this that this doesn't get edited so much outside of like technical edits, but You know, you may attend a live event where it does get chopped up and so you might miss something that is you could miss something In fact, I would almost encourage Like a tie I would encourage a tight edit just for good content consumption later on But there's probably a model there to help people I wouldn't say I don't say hold stuff back or take stuff out But you might miss something funny that just might not make yeah I know I did about ten minutes of Q&A at the end so that was kind of cool that you know You can't you can't ask a question if you're not watching live. So Right, right Awesome. All right. Well, let's move on. So Roger You can give us either one of your stories here Yeah, I think I mean the first one is is I guess surely no surprise but It's a surprise. I guess it's a surprise. It's a surprise, but it's a surprise and I'm skeptical And I don't even know what story you're gonna bring up but it is And you're right to be skeptical The first one is that you know, according to e-marketer They're they're they're saying that Spotify You know, we'll be taking over Apple in total US podcast listeners. Does he listener have a Spotify exclusive podcast? They do not And and I mean, you know, I think You know where the where the skeptical You know you somewhat respect there is no there is no source for where they're getting the information from but They are claiming that it's true and I mean, you know, I Guess the question is kind of what's going on at Apple when it comes to podcasts and and Where is Where where's their head at? I know there's a lot of exciting things apparently coming but you know not not too much has been announced you know anytime soon or or I Know there's a bit of a user interface your user interface, you know, I'll change coming but When they Rob said in his talk that they're the whole 300 display limit You'd see the that's going away, right? So so that could be Interesting to say the least but it just seems that Spotify's does done an amazing job of courting the the creator And and the different sort of niches within it obviously, you know music side, you know, they've they've done really good They've done a really good job of Embracing, you know, sort of the hobby podcaster as well as the business side as well as the larger brands that want to play a role in podcasting as well as the advertisers and it just seems like they've they've really done a good job This year and I think it's it's you know, those numbers make a lot of sense Given the connection to Music and the the user experience seems to just be improving I saw someone tweet out. Would you rather have your podcast inside your music app or you're or basically not Separate and see that's my question. I'm like if you look at Google They mixed music and podcasting and broke out podcasting Apple Broke out podcasting and music and I'm like because I don't know about you. I tried to listen to some podcast on Spotify That is not a good experience. You want to make me a believer with this report. I want to see retention stats, right so We know I mean you can go into all of us take our podcast and go look in our Apple dashboard Apple dashboard Why did I say like that? The dashboard Very very That's the rebranding that's coming I couldn't tell you about it. It's out now You have to say that dashboard Anyways, we know that podcast do really well long-formant does really well a lot of people are seeing 6070 90% of their episodes being listened to is that happening on Spotify, right? There's this crazy number of podcast We did a roundtable story. I think last time Dave where we talked about Like the mat the majority of new podcasts Are on Spotify or something like that and it was all it was an anchor thing, right? So yeah, we know lots of stuff gets started anchor the fantastic thing about anchor is it lets anyone try it But then they're gone, right? Like maybe like one of the five that are started actually might stick around for ten I said so our people sampling is Spotify showing Showing people podcast a depressing plane and skipping is it is it a Dave? What did you say? Is it a? training oh, is it a streaming versus download thing like we just don't know enough Because it does seem hard to believe that they would and this was a monthly I think I'm not article. I saw I was like 28 million listens Next month versus like 20 million. Let me let me work on that Vert 23 million. I know it's not Dave. I know Dave doesn't have any your cats It's totally fine. I have kids that can run in and tackle me at any moment. So oh, that's wonderful But Dave so like eh, maybe maybe not, right? Spotify came out with a Video about stream on and their whole thing was painting about how the thing I loved about it is everything they said was with absolute confidence that you know You they could say anything, but they said it was such confidence that you know I have seven toes and you know, I'm going to dump Fish sticks in my you know, it was just like what it was weird that so I give them credit It was very Apple-esque and they just said it in such a way that you have to be on Spotify But they had a whole section on like and this is what drives me Locars they're like hey, we're having a problem with podcast advertising And I like really because the last time I checked we're out performing newspapers radio People are dumping billions into radio ads, but we still outperform them TV blah blah blah, but no no We and we've solved it We're gonna go streaming and I was like you're gonna go streaming so because you can get that extra Facebook, you know give me the 35 year old guy in Idaho who likes to listen to you know Taylor Swift on Tuesday kind of detail that you can't get from anything else But yet we're outperforming everything else except Facebook because you get all this insane detail And they just made that part sound like oh streaming is so much better for you And I'm like I don't know that are people like going let me see I could listen an overcast or I could listen Is there anyone that would put more ads in front of me because I'm really looking for more ads and I was like so That would be That was an interesting thing And there's like five there was like five things you've said that I wanted to like break out and discuss So I think you had to be so far down the rabbit hole Which I think our audience is to understand half of what you said, but I'm like well And they kept they kept pointing out how they've helped musicians make money, and I was like really Spotify spotify yeah, it's like we and there was a guy there that had like a billion streams, so it's they're not lying But I'm like I mean technically yeah Yeah, but how much money so it's just like we're gonna help my casters make money like musicians, and I'm like I'm not sure if that's how I don't listen people aren't gonna listen to round 154 Every day yeah five times a hundred times not they should Yeah, well that was that was my thing we should get paid by the minute right cuz you get paid X amount of money for a song It's four minutes long right we put out something an hour long We should get paid, you know whatever 12 times Whatever a song makes we're not it's not happening Dave. You got exposure I thought I saw a great meme or maybe not even mean just a post that showed like the old Organ trail, but it was like content creator dies of exposure Which I thought was you know, I've never been in that game No, I mean he has gracious. Yeah. Yeah, you have to just that's almost like a classic joke. It's like saying I Don't know I'm trying to think of something very old that we all refer to no one's ever actually played a game of snakes the ladders Yeah, there we go life life Well, here's a question is has anyone listened to Joe Rogan since he moved to Spotify I didn't listen to him. I used to look in my app I would look an overcast see who we interviewed and then I would go to YouTube to watch it. I was gonna say that's not true I have seen I never listened, but I did see clips on YouTube This is like the beauty of YouTube is I mean think of late-night talk shows, right? Like I don't watch Jimmy Fallon, but I will have seen several clips of Jimmy Fallon My wife and I spent an hour maybe two In front of the TV a couple weeks ago Watching nothing but Howard Stern clips because of the muse the musical performances I don't listen Howard Stern, but we sat there for two hours and consumed the musical performance So like YouTube is great for this and yeah that he pulled off of so did I just see was it in that article though? There was something about Rogan returning they're putting so now I heard they're putting Stuff in the old RSS feet. Yeah, this was an open podcast article. I read I don't remember what it was You're shaking your head Roger. Do you know what that was about? No, you were right that that is what they're doing That's that's that's all I had nothing to add that other than that that I saw the same article, right? So essentially they're like we're not reaching. It doesn't feel like they're not reaching Well, I mean I add at the end too. Sorry Dave just like to do you like how was this possible because Joe Rogan went Spotify exclusive? He's locked in there did video for him. I don't know if that's even a thing I don't know what they're doing, but It sounds like Spotify also was like oh Crud we we shoved so much money into this hole and we're not getting enough out of it So they're starting to put stuff back in the open Podcast feed where anyone can get it and then they're just like I know the compromise will jam a Spotify ad the best part Is they're putting it at the end? Yeah Exactly, I'm just noticing a trend Amy Schumer was exclusive and then she wasn't and then Michelle Obama was exclusive and then she wasn't and now it's great There's some combo of greatness there like the whole windowing thing like look if you're serial and you're coming back and it you end up Coming back a week early on Spotify like as a listener. I am totally fine with that I'm like I'm not gonna pay till this I'll wait a week Right, but for people who want to pay and get it now or people are on the platform as a perk like there's some combination of Holding back or are going exclusive, but You know going pure exclusive where something was open before you know what it is I think it just triggers something in our psyche in our humanity And I think our character because I think as podcasters and the community of podcasters We're kind of like inherent rebels in a way. So when someone told you you can't have right Exactly, right. Oh, you want to be like a radio DJ star Well, you can't and now, you know, you have a podcast and you have like, you know, 200 episodes But once you put that stamp of exclusive on something it just I think in Specifically for our community. It just leaves a really bad taste in people's mouths and it's like About it, you know, no matter how great the content might be. That's why there's probably another podcast very similar to it Where you can find it, you know, or or or we're gonna start seeing pirates That's exactly what's gonna happen. Well that exists. I mean almost the going back to The Rogan example on YouTube. I don't think any clip I ever saw show up in my feed Came from his channel It's from someone who ripped it and put it on it right because they want to get ad revenue against it and The bots will prevent this like yours. I'm sure, you know They'll be able to to fight against that. There'll always be some level of that But even podcasters, I'm sure Dave. I know I've had whole podcast stolen. Yeah, there's a Problem where if you have a really popular show I can go grab the feed imported into anchor and run ads against it and It's just creating them, you know, they've tried I know Adam Curry and his podcasting 2.0 project has a thing where you can check a box to lock it But here's the thing Potentially right somebody that's doing this it's copying a feed throwing in an anchor Probably a little more technical than the average show. This is not, you know, this is somebody who understands podcasting And all you're gonna do is open up that RSS feed copy and paste it into a text file throw it on a different address and guess what? You got to RSS feed So I Appreciate the effort because they're like, oh, this is like a domain lock And I'm like not that I've seen really because you've got to do a lot of hokey pokey to get a domain released when you Transferred to somebody else with special codes back and forth and I'm like I don't you know Probably shouldn't comment because I don't know that much about the lock thing besides It's a check mark and it stops people, but I don't know that it's quite as extensive as an actual domain Lock so I will I need to investigate that and get back But when I first heard it, I'm like, well, that's just gonna stop it. There's dirt There are always ways around it. I always tell people if I can hear it and if I can see it I can steal it and that never gonna pay for it anyway Have you guys listened to Obama and Springsteen? Not yet. It's on my library. I don't pay for is that a premium is it? paid only so that's interesting to me right because What's the model there? There it the model is to get people on the spot if I mean, this is the whole point, right spot if I I mean It's also brought it's a it's also brought to Starbucks Starbucks, right? So, okay, so it's Branded or I mean obviously Roger you would have some inside into what's going on like the whole play is just to get people to To listen not to to come to Spotify, right, which is not necessarily a bad play I mean Netflix is killing it with this model with making the most of awesome original programming And you go to Netflix now you can't you can't consume some Netflix things for free Netflix you should probably do that, but that sounds like Spotify is doing that, right Roger Yes, so so with you know a lot of its Sorry, is it available for free? I mean, I think you still need to have a Spotify account Right sign up free but But you know that is something they should they should be trying is is offering something for free before you get the account for sure But I think I think a lot of this is is great. It's just more it's more, you know more More content and and I agree that there will come a point where where you know We're gonna start having to pay for these things and we're becoming It's becoming more routine and I mean we just saw Twitter, you know Twitter's announced that they're gonna start playing with the idea of charging for you know for for sort of super content or you know super follower Status that you'll get certain content for people. I think this is it's become part of our psyche like you to your point And and no surprise You brought up the Springsteen Obama if you listen to it because I haven't I haven't myself No, I haven't cuz to get your guys Well, they had a clip of it on that, you know stream on thing that I was talking about before and I have tried like hard. I have invested hours into understanding the magic of Bruce Springsteen and Please don't send me your hate. I just don't get it's fine This is we can all we can go down the line and say like There are bands like Yeah, love rush people never heard of don't listen to rush. Don't get it, right? We all have fish I don't get it. Yeah, there's a time. I was out in Idaho with the brand and you're like, oh, just shut up and get you're from Jersey Well, it's kind of like the whole like how do you ruin Metallica you put Lou Reed with him And I'm like to me Obama is a charismatic kind of guy and I would listen to his podcast until you threw Springsteen in the mix I'm like, oh, I gotta sit through The only thing I know about it is I saw a promo picture and Springsteen was way too far from the SM7 being it was driving me crazy But I wanted to listen for that reason only I wanted to say is does it sound like the room because you know what when you get Those two caliber of people on a podcast they have a huge production team and there's some always some kind of magic I'm like how in the world can anyone sit that far from SM7 be and sound that good So I I'm gonna have to listen for that reason and it could be just a photo perspective is a weird thing Yeah, they probably emailed bandrew who's in the chat and it's probably all fine now, so I Know I know one of the conversations is around they titled it renegade or it's up at the renegade podcast or something and a Lot of people are saying that they don't consider either of them necessarily a renegade. Isn't that just a didn't he do It's a song or an album or something Yeah, for sure Yeah What all right, let's let's get on here. Let's find Let's see. No, well, let's go back to your second story. Sure. Sure. So my second story was really interesting and It kind of hit home for me because you know as I mentioned before This is my first year into podcasting. So a lot of the things that I've learned I've kind of just learned on the way and One of those things is obviously reaching an audience and growing your audience As independent podcaster, you know, I do this kind of as a as a hobby but what was Fascinating to me was this article about these group of guys that started a Facebook back in 2019. So not too long ago and it they just developed this massive following of listeners and people just by What I mentioned before was like this authentic networking. So reaching out to people of their community And just amassing this army of followers. So I found this article absolutely fascinating because it was So quick it was such a an explosion of popularity from these this podcast Genology guys and you know, it's really important that what they did was they kind of focused on Their people on their audience on their subject and and I think anyone can take away from that would be Focusing on your audience. Who is your audience? Who is your target demographic and you know reach out to them? you know there has to be some form of you know tangible connection there and you know just What these guys were able to do in such a short period of time? Was pretty remarkable. So for me Like actually didn't feel like it. It kind of opens. So what is this the title is? How the genealogy guys went from no Facebook group to an online community of 13,000 plus in one month So, yeah, they had a podcast But then the the article is really not about a podcast Although you can take something away from a big time where I thought this is kind of where I took the name from Well of this episode finding the untapped podcast audience So if you're watching this for 38 minutes in a buried lead that I think that's how that works But now here we go. There's a payoff so It all made sense. It's very much like podcasting right the the more specific you are the more that you're talking to One type of person who's interested in one thing the more likely are to surface So they had a podcast and what I didn't get from the article was what this did for their podcast They started a Facebook group for genealogy. There were already Facebook groups that existed and they grew really fast This is a no-brainer. Like if you're talking about something Like genealogy You'll get there's a massive amount of people on Facebook period, but they're gonna be interested in that topic. So it's much easier and The threshold of joining a group Facebook will even help you Because they'll show it to you Now so you can reach a lot more people potentially talk to a lot more people in a group like that who's very specific Focused on one topic then you would a podcast, but if you have a podcast Then obviously that organically gets surfaced in that group and you're suddenly in front of a ton of people are interested in your podcast Who never before would have found your podcast right now You're probably gonna scrape still a very small percentage of people away from a group to a podcast because a lot of people Just don't want to listen to an hour-long podcast of even the thing they love but the point is You will find people that you didn't before and it is always about One person and you never know where that's going to go. Who's that going to be they turn into co-host they turn into Major sponsors they turn into the person that introduces three other people So, yeah, if you're very specific if you can tell me what one word It's like Oprah if you can give me the one word version of your podcast Like there's an audience to be tapped that you're not reaching so so no surprise that they grew fast On a platform that that categorizes people by their interest, right? So I think also just just the knowing a few Having a few friends that have done the gene genealogical thing And also a lot of the people That do that are Obviously looking to make the connections with their ancestors and all that sort of stuff. They they're all over social and so I'm also not surprised at all that they would that they would You know would be attracted to something like a community because they're probably all sitting there listening to the podcast You know saying I wish we could all talk together because they love to swap stories and success He has success stories and and all that sort of stuff So that's right thing that gives you the other thing you can't do with the podcast, which is the audience cannot Engage the audience other right, right? So now because you really if you're a good host You're really just connecting your audience to each other I think and so, you know, probably several of us have Facebook pages I had one it was decent But Facebook doesn't show you unless you pay doesn't show the stuff you're trying to communicate your audience It's a whole different topic But you know Another thing about this page is that they they were in touch and aware and communicating with other genealogy pages It's not like right again Don't go to don't go to a platform and say it already exists Don't think of a podcast and then be like there's already a podcast about podcasting I'm not gonna start one right do it. Most of them start and go away The you have a different perspective all those reasons, right? So they were able to get those established pace pages to mention that they had started a page, right? It is still again a community So we could do this with the round table if we started a page about podcasting There's a huge community of podcasters Suddenly they would know of the round table and it's amazing How far down you can be in a community and still not even know that that person or that content or the creator exists I've done this and being like You've been talking about podcasting for years. How did I miss this right? So the more connections you can make the better the other interesting part of the story as I dug into it They've been podcasting for 14 years. They started in 2005 And they started the group in 2019. Oh geez. And here's the sad part When you go to their listing in apple podcast They have not had an episode out in 2021 yet. They their last episode was december 2020 so that's everyone's going to the podcast group. What the hell's going on? They're just maybe they're just reaching their accomplishing their goals on the group pages They're like we don't have a podcast anyone. Yeah Well, they're looking for topic ideas Yeah Yeah, I mean someone who's podcast that long that's well, you can see where they were super consistent weekly weekly weekly twice a month twice some once a month and I'm like, uh, I mean they talk about so this is important actually this is a good takeaway here because We When you're a content creator you create a podcast. You're like great. I need to put it on twitter Oh, I better put on instagram better start a snapchat better. I have a facebook group suddenly All your time is running social not making your podcast Social is not the thing that's going to make the difference the podcast is going to make the difference the content's going to make the difference So be careful because they talk about in that article That You know, it's a massive lift, right when you find out there's this community you you have to feed the beast, right? So be careful again. I think I've said that like four times in the last 30 seconds Just I'm not saying don't try those things, but you know is your audience there Do you have the time everything that you do after starting a podcast really needs to become Do I have space for that extra thing because you know, no, well, you're a hobby hobby podcaster like most of us here There's barely time for that. It's already a labor of love. So, you know, and I've probably we've probably all created Some page and then it just sort of sits there and we don't do anything with it, right? Yeah, that's a good audience at that point. Yeah, that's a really good point. Good take away to come from that Feed the beast Feed the beast You're gonna it's the churn. It never stops. Feed the beast. So eat your life And this is on a website indiepodcastnews.com and that's the first I've ever heard of it So So wait, that wasn't in my recommended. Is it in my recommend? I know. Oh, yeah, I do have Oh, that's new. So that is someone if you so podcastersroundtable.com slash guest if you'd like to be a guest submit there I'll eventually get to you. I'm looking on the round table. But um, that's something that's fairly new. They asked About some kind of partner. I said, you know what? I'll throw the website as recommended where we get stories from and All I know from so it is new Dave But I it is in my recommended email to guests to be like if you need help finding stories here are a few places podnews Um, couple other interesting. This is where we check it out our stories from podcast business journal So shout outs to the places we get our stories from um And actually Roger, I thought you might pools I thought I would I expect to Roger show up with stories from his own website Because I saw you had some good articles there But I was kudos for not being completely self-promotional Well, but there was good stuff. There was good stuff. Thank you. So go to you can go to jar is a plug You can go to jar audio. You guys have some good blog posts on podcast. Thank you. Yeah, we do do some some webinars as well Nice. Thanks. Yeah Um, all right little while it's speaking of let's toss back to Roger for Your second story. Yeah The nominations for the ambi awards for the ambis which uh ambis. What is that? This is the first year the ambis which is the uh awards put up by the podcast academy Um, I could then again say what is that? Yeah. Yeah, and and the answer to that is I I don't know what that is Dave should know I should the turtles don't go all the way down. I'm in it. I think I've paid for uh, yeah whatever Yeah, I I'm in it I Help what is it Dave? It's Well, that's hard. That's the fun question. I'm in it, but I don't know what it is. It was supposed to be You know podcasters talking about Like the thing that adam curry is doing right now with podcasting 2.0 Where the dog or the tail is trying to position itself To wag the dog instead of vice versa because we're kind of all God bless apple. I love them But like if we want anything done in podcasting we have to go, please more sir. Can we have another tag, please? and so Adam curry is trying to position it to where we go. Hey, why don't we all agree to this and then apple if they're going to stay relevant And that's an interest. That's an interesting concept. So This was kind of supposed to be that they were going to look at things that were affecting podcasters and So far and again, it's early. Uh, they made an award show I feel like this was the union for independent podcasters like independent podcasters are Independent so we don't have a voice that can push industry and so from what I got the depression was that And rob greenlee is part of he was part of the Co-founding of this and so I thought the whole idea was let's give independent podcasters a voice That can be at the table when big things happen. So we could say hey, you better pay attention to us, right because Most of the most of the industry even though you only see the top 1% which we might see in these awards, which is very ironic. I have to say What's going on? Yeah, I know the podcast academy is is trying to you know Literally from their side the advance the cultural merit of the medium, which um, so it's not indie focus per se It's not actually impression. They've got an event coming up on march the 16th, which is all about the monetization of your podcast so um You know not that an indie podcaster can't still you know, you know, obviously monetize but um I just think it's it. I just think I love I love seeing the the breadth and diversity of of the different titles that have been at least nominated And you saw a wide range They weren't all about coveted. They you know, it was coming from the big guys the small guys You know different different producers and distributors and I just loved thumbing through it and and not seeing um Things that I necessarily would have expected Which I think is is is great for the entire industry I come from the advertising world so from you know from from my perspective I was Getting into the podcast space. I was always a bit leery when I saw things like awards because awards in the advertising world became such a Cottage industry in and of itself and it was kind of it got to the point where it was You know quite disgusting to be honest of of how Expensive an entry was and how competitive it got and how you'd you know, we called them dog walker ads where where you know you would you would You would find a client just because you had an idea that could potentially win an award And you could gain the entire system And I and I guess I mean maybe maybe I'm being naive, but I guess it's to me at face value It's it seems kind of difficult to do that in the podcast space because you're you're measuring the entire show and you got to really You know do something um quite ambitious to uh sort of Create a dog walker podcast. Um because that's quite a lot of production that goes into it versus you know print out or a Single display out or or some sort of stunt. So I don't know just This was the first award so that I saw that got my interest that seemed uh, uh to um be exciting So we have glenn Dave in the chat. He says I would say not indie focus and this was kind of the impression you got Right, like when I went over I didn't expect to see Like tons of indie podcasts right But when every single one says from and it's a network I went wow There's no one here that it's like the blah blah blah show by steven jones and You know nancy such and such and I was like, which is something we So the long-standing podcast awards the og of awards right is tod's awards Pod are they just called the podcast awards like the people's choice podcast Right, um, which is great that I think it's generic podcast awards because that's how dominant it is in the indie space Like really does represent shows that I promise Probably you'd have not heard of right so because they were user The nominations were user submitted so it's submitted by the audience which At some point became gamed as well, right that they they fell victim to being gamed because you could just If you turned out your audience more than someone else turn to their audience I don't know if that's gamed, but um There were ways that it was gamed so and they fixed that but Um, we had a little talk about this before we went live Dave and I about You know who's nominating How are they being put up there? Who's deciding to nominate so I don't I don't know we know enough I don't know the answers to that Because Dave is you're saying like they're all coming out of networks like How did these get nominated you you said that you think if you're a member which we're members And it's partly my fault I guess because I didn't nominate it. Yeah, I I remember them saying it's You know, it's time and I remember thinking okay I'll get right around to that and then I got the email This is your final time and I'm like right after I get done doing this And then all of a sudden like and here are your nominees. I was like, ah crap. I never voted so I can't really complain because I had a chance to voice My opinion and then didn't I will say I fight it frustrating that like Wondry has one here that's got multiple nominations called bunga bunga With whitney Cummings and it looks like I forget the comedian's name But anyway, I was like I went to listen to this And none of the links on them Um, there are no links like if I want to go listen to this show I have to now go to an app and search for it. I'm like, uh, that's yeah, it's a mess I'm like Especially because if it was you know when it says wondery right at the top and you know The head of wondery is like was the head of this whole thing. I was like Again miss. Yeah, and boy. I mean I want to accept at the top Okay. Yeah, there's a link at it bunga bunga at the top, but it's a link to the page that it's on So it's not a link. So which again is even more frustrating and again first year that could be growing pains Right, you know, so if you're listening, you could rob rob could be listening Rob can the although I don't know these part of it anyways make the suggestion fix it and we'll see these things change but you know this this Brings back we talked about spotify and I don't think you can sample Spotify podcast on the web Which is insane. Like you have to open the app. It's like I don't have that app. I don't want that up like To not be able to sample like that just seems like a failure to me But you know apple finally got good at this right so all your podcasts have a page on the web So it became a thing where it used to be if you linked to your podcast on apple You would click it and it could launch the apple app if you had it that was fine But I think there became a point where we were like don't link to apple because Not everyone's using apple shocker, right? So that excludes all people on google Well, now that it's in a web browser if you link to apple at least someone can Sample the podcast can I press play in here? Do I want to go and find this podcast on the platform that I listen on right? You should have links to all of the platforms so no one has to make that choice But I think Spotify doesn't even do this. So Spotify now you're listening Let's get your heads out of your out of your pod catcher I I do know that james kridlin from pod news net has a link he said in his uh podcast today That if you go to his website and look he said he actually has links to the nominees And it appears that he does because I can see there's a link to bunga bunga And also who's who's hosting these people which is interesting So james reveals a lot of cool stuff. I will say james I when I go we do get stories from pod news and When you go to a pod news at least the way I get there I'm never sure where the story is completely like the headline them like then there's a bunch of other stuff What's the story? Do I click here? So kridlin? That's just a little As a user experience. I also skip over the classified ads, but I know I'm not supposed to Well, I'm because they're supposed to stand out, right? You know, right? And for the record bunga bunga is about the ex-president of, uh, italy silvio burlesconi Well, there you go. He just said he had sex parties called bunga bunga parties Oh, well, maybe I will listen now. They lost me now. You got me. Yeah in that's a it's see You just you have to choose the right tagline, right? Just the showrunner and me I Clearly experienced Awesome. Well, I mean, there's probably not much more to say about that. I don't think other than, um Good luck to all the nominees. Yeah, good luck guys It's an honor being nominated podcast awards like that's a whole Like I don't care Interestingly the um, the the the awards are selected by, uh, um, a blue ribbon panel of judges, right And I don't know what you do. I don't know what you have to do to be at a blue ribbon panel Maybe this is an america. Is this an american thing because in canada, we don't have blue ribbon panels Is that american thing? Seriously? I mean, you mean is the is the podcast academy an american thing? No, the concept of a blue ribbon panel It's a it's a someone very old made up that tagline That's what that is. Somebody just came back. Come on man. So it's the millennial in me Someone copy pasted from their myspace page. Wow Sorry, it probably if you came up with that, man, I don't I don't know who came up with that Yeah, come on. That doesn't say anything to I don't know. No, um, ribbon is capitalized. I've been I've been on those panels. Um Whatever like I be it's cool. Congrats. Dave. You have an award, right? Where is it? I see it No, that's hall of fame. There's the award. There we go 2017 best technology 2020 is on its way according to Todd. He's having you know, that is so weird now that like, you know, it's we're we're into march And we're still kind of going Yeah, male whatever it'll get here Like we kind of did that around christmas because we understood christmas extra, but it's like it's march now We're still kind of going. Yeah. I don't know. It's the male. What are you gonna do? It's not like you're worried about someone stealing off your porch. You're home Right. Oh, yes I love it how it's now become like you just put something on a boat from europe and send it over And you just it's kind of the same thing now where you just like it might get here might not We don't know. Yeah chances are not Yeah, I don't try yeah Can't do it for the record canada post is just as bad if if you do send somebody something Add a note. I had somebody send me a bottle of something It could be olive oil or its wine Yeah, I I have a last name and their address, but there was no note and I'm not drinking anything unless I know who it came from Uh, I I had a bottle of wine in a night that that was screw top. So that tells you something But it was unscrewed and none had been taken out and I don't remember maybe the previous bottle of wine made me do that And like yeah, but I I basically took it one glass a night because I'm like I'm I'm still drinking it though. Let's not kid ourselves If I'm poisoned I want to be poisoned a little bit Worn my family The new thing now too is is you'll send a package For somebody's birthday for example, it'll arrive three weeks later You look like a jerk because you didn't send them or or wish them a happy birthday or even call them because you're like Oh, I'm the gift is gonna do it all and so now you have to like Tell people that a surprise is coming in advance in hopes that it gets there on time and if it doesn't He'll know why it's not soon. It'll be a drone and it'll be there like literally within minutes of deciding Oh, I you can wake up that day and be like I forgot Hey, Dave, I can't believe this is on your list of stories Um because I just made a reference to sharing the apple link. Why don't you tell us that story? Yeah, this is a Just something that we've been saying forever and that is Some people, you know, they want to be at the top of apple podcast charts because you know that ensures Uh financial freedom for the rest of your life and millions and you know a shot on jimmy fallon Um, this is uh speaking of james cridland. This is an article Uh and just saying that android is gaining against, you know ios on a worldwide basis and globally now 69 of people are on an android In asia at 74 percent north america at 60 Wait a minute wait a minute on just just just on the os is that what it's saying or is this to do with podcasting because I thought that was they were already dominant like but yeah, doesn't mean people listen to podcasts I mean this we can go we can talk us to your boss rob there who who who makes well I guess my whole point is I just see people all the time and you mention it where they throw out an apple link And it used to be you really just kind of screwed the pooch when you did that at least now They can listen but the goal is not listens the goal is subscribers and I've I've never understood why this is a question in My opinion send them to your website where you have a subscribe link right there Ready for them to click and then if you're doing the whole facebook thing and you want to Track them you can place the pixel which is a you know two for the price of one I think the only argument becomes More clicks means you've siphoned off a person each time right like so like if I have to click two I mean, I don't know you but I've got to click two things forget it I'm out like I like one thing you didn't take me to where I was trying to go too much Yeah, I would send them to the episode where they can click play But then have subscribed links under the under the player who so you're sending them to your website May probably the landing page for that episode Right, but then they have to click play when they get there They have to know so that's two clicks Well, if you send them a link to apple they still got to click play when they get there Plus the other thing is so if we send them to podcasters roundtable.com they go to that episode they click play Uh, and now they sit there and listen And whether they actually sit there and listen is many times. It's just like oh, this is cool And then they go to their phone But nonetheless if they do and they sit there well now google google goes that's weird every time somebody You know uses that link in a search result They go over there and they sit there for like 10 minutes. That must be really good content So google's gonna kind of go, huh? That must be does that work? I mean, I guess time on page work is it they're not tracking the player Outside of it. You can even embed google podcasts on your own website. There's a good question They have so google podcasts google has tried to do they try to get back into podcasting You have google podcasts. They also you can link to google and it brings you to even Probably even a I don't know if it's better, but another good um Listing of your podcast in the browser, right? You could Because if you go to podcast at google.com and find your shell Listen, this just making me think I'm gonna wait if if I can embed a google podcast Because look a player on your website Is not for people to listen to your podcast like one or two people will be like I come to your website every week to listen to your podcast You're like, okay, I don't know what you're you're stuck in but that's just not that's not the thing It is a sample. It is an opportunity for someone to decide Do they want to go? To a podcatcher to a podcast directory and subscribe, right? So like you're probably not going to see good retention on Outside of like just a really good episode that's people on social and they're like For some reason they've decided that I wasn't planning to listen to an hour of something But i'm going to now right and that's also what people don't understand about social and podcasts that people are not ready In a position to listen to something for an hour while they're scrolling twitter Um, it's a it's appointment viewing. I don't know if they call no the appointment viewing is where you have to show up at a Right time, right? This is people listen to podcasts because It's their time to commute anymore if they're time to to work out Mow the lawn, whatever it is right not scrolling twitter, but Now i'm thinking Dave if I can if I can embed a google podcast player on my site Do I get more juice because again the player is not for the subscriber the player is for the person who is It's the impulse buy at the at the supermarket So if there's something I can do to help google say because we know google is supposed to be indexing podcast in theory Eventually there may be the way they used to surface youtube videos in your search results at the very top If the answer to someone's question they're google Is in your podcast and google's able to transcribe and and surface that they will start showing you to that So anything that I maybe I can do to help google do that. So Dave, do you know I we probably No, I I was just in her plan. You can get a link to an episode on google podcast But there is no embeddable google. So this is my point because I know google is listening They're not but um Give us a player man and and then tell us why we'd want to use it as podcasters Yeah, because you do get You can go into google podcast manager and see how far people have listened just like you can in apple and Spotify and the other ones. So it'd be cool if we had a player Let them track that Instead of instead of including an apple link and uh, you know, uh google link or or whatever What about a smart link through through chartable that at least gives you the option to You know to or at least either kicks you to the to their favorite player of choice So or it gives you the option to choose. Yeah, that's what we do a lot Just also a feature in my podcast reviews. That's right by our own dino j. Lewis. So Smart links, they're fun Smart links is just determines on what you have in your phone Already, is that what's going on because it's not I mean even your desktop apps. Maybe because yep And if you don't have one of the devices that are in a smart link, uh, what happens It smacks you in the face and says As it should It sends you to a bit of it sends you do a landing page Which gives you the option for all the apps you can you can choose to send you to a page on chartable though, correct Yeah, yeah, and there's always this plan directly I'm sorry. Can't you play it from chartable directly? You could also do that but yeah like, you know It not many people are gonna are gonna do that. I think there's always the push and pull between sharing Your website and someone else's totally. Yeah Again Sharing like what are we even talking about we're talking about social, right? We're talking about in an email emails. Um, yeah Yeah, we really just got to think think of yourself as The person who's receiving this Think, you know, we have to be careful about Being bi like we have a lot of bias about how we consume things and we'll make a lot assumptions about Oh, other people must do this too, right? Even when i'm saying about web players may not be true. Maybe there's a massive audience that uses web players, but just be think just be um Conscious of of your own bias when you're thinking about how but you should think of Even go through the experience like if you're sharing links on twitter I hope that you're also clicking through those and seeing what that experience is like Try it on your mobile try on your desktop Like what what are the things you're asking people to do do the things tries to feel those people to do you might find Uh, that you're like, this is terrible. Sorry for doing that, right? Or just how it could be done better All right, what we we did cross We hit the hour mark we when we get into stories by dave You we've done a good job because that means we've gone over the guest We usually don't eclipse We it's usually half hour on the first story, which we almost did but um either that or our topics were so terrible We just had to get past the brush door. No, it was all good. I mean It's funny as a podcaster, you know You know right immediately when you stop record with your co-host or with an interview you immediately be like That was a good one or you like Not so good, right? And maybe the edit can help in that in that one, but but you always know so You know these these are conversations about podcast. They're almost they're always good for me. It doesn't mean they're good for the audience But right, um, I enjoyed it. So I'm gonna say thank you You're gonna tell us where we can find your podcast And I guess we're gonna head out here unless you have another thing that you wanted to say that you didn't get to say Please say it, but um No, well, thanks for joining us, man. Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you again for the invite I was uh, really glad to jump on board with you guys Again, my name is noel. I am the founder and co-host of hidden gems a film podcast And you can find it on any podcast platform that you enjoy Awesome. Who is your co-host? So my co-host is actually my wife, which is fun. So that's a uh, it's kind of like a uh, A little couple there. So um, again, I have a lot of um background in film and writing And she is just an average film fan. So we kind of attack these careful with the word just I'm very careful. Well, that's what she said. That's how we uh, describe it. So then, you know, careful with the word average It's a tagline. So it's a tagline approved because if you listen to my intro, I literally list all my credits practically I'm like, I'm a writer actor filmmaker screenplayer writer Uh television critic and she's like, and I'm just a film fan So it's kind of like that. It just supposes that so uh, that's kind of where we're coming from Dave Dave, uh, is his marriage doomed now that he decided to start a podcast with a significant nice. Congrats, man It shouldn't shouldn't be in theory. All right, let's hope not. I'm just trying to lean in on your own experience at that And no, mine was you've tried it. You've tried it. Yeah, I I I started a podcast because we thought if we would record ourselves Arguing we could then go let's go back to the tape. What did you say there? Brilliant. Yeah, it turned out that didn't work. That is so anyway, it doesn't matter. Yeah That is um, what is this the Netflix series the dark? No, what is that? Anyways, that's some sci-fi stuff there It would have been funny if I remember the name of the show. All right. Anyways, Roger Thanks so much, man. Thanks so much for having me. Um, so to to learn more about jar audio Check out jar audio calm and check us out on social as well. So Jar underscore audio on on twitter and then we're on LinkedIn as well And I'm on twitter as well as jar underscore roger. Why would This audience who is I would say mostly No wells the independent podcasters. Why would they why would they follow jar audio? Because we're great at what we do when it comes to producing podcasts and Even though we work with big brands, uh, we always like to say that We're just creating a great podcast that happens to be brought to you by brands So we share a lot of information on our side about how to create a podcast how to grow an audience how to engage with that audience and how to You know how to keep uh, keep producing great content. Um, so that's that's that's what you get from us Cool. That's the key. I think a lot of this audience wants to know You know and for me, I'm always interested in someone who is plugged into a bigger brand Which is another way of saying someone with a budget, right? So independent podcasters Can learn a lot by like what someone with more money can do and then you find a way You know those things can be translated to an independent podcasters someone with a lesser budget Maybe not with the full impact that if you had all that money, but there are lessons to be learned there So that would be a good reason to follow along. I think so it's always good to get some insider Insights even if you're an indie podcaster. I would say especially if you're an indie podcaster Steel steel let let someone else spend the money learn the lessons and then take that information apply to your podcast Exactly Apply that to any business as well That's right Dave Jackson Go hose. Thanks, man. Yeah. Thanks. This was uh fun You can find me over at school of podcasting.com where I help you plan launch grow and monetize your podcast I feel like that you've put a new word in there. I did. Well, it's kind of like this whole thing You're like Dave shouldn't you be mentioning this part of you know It was like because it used to just be plan launch and grow and then somebody said well, don't you have a book on monetization? I'm like, yeah, but usually it's so what I should do is like Launch grow like plan launch grow. So we're losing Launch because that's part of grow. So plan grow and monetize your podcast. There we go Yeah, I think this is probably some mastermind. You could probably join that learn exactly what four words you should actually have Exactly because it's usually three, but that's what's the problem. That's why you know, that's it stuck out to me Dave I was like, what's going on like wait, what there's four words four words Crazy stopped at three words. All right. Awesome. Thanks, Dave And uh, if you want to be on a round table, certainly if you are listening or watching this far Because as I said people don't listen to the end once they know the ends coming if you've signaled Okay, well that people stop they're out like if you look at your youtube stats Look at your apple stats for google stats. You see retention drop off The freaking wall when you start to signal that you're at the end of an episode So something to think about the way you end your episodes But if you are still part of this if you're listening, thank you. By the way, you're the hardcore's You're exactly who would be on the round table. So we want to see you on the round table Podcasters round table dot com slash guest sign up Again takes a while, but we'll get you on here and uh, then we'll do this thing. All right So thanks everyone. We will see you for 155 And we're out of here wave. Goodbye