 We're now live streaming on YouTube. Welcome everybody. This is a continuation of the afternoon meeting of the house appropriations committee and we are very excited to hear some testimony from the new state Chancellor of the Vermont State Colleges. We have Sophie, you've got to help me with your last name is everyone just says Sophie so can you. That's fine. It's the way it looks but it does get people when they look at it. Thank you and you have with you. I'm looking around the screen Sharon Scott is with you. Who is your CFO. Yes Sharon just came on board as our chief financial officer chief operating officer but she's been with the system for for 17 years. Welcome and we're glad to have both of you here and as you know there's going to be a lot of questions around the state colleges and there's been a lot happening. And so you have a short presentation and I think we're going to jump right in and let you start in with the presentation and then we'll turn it over to questions but we have both the house appropriations committee and the house education committee and I'd like to welcome all and when it's time for questions just raise your blue virtual hand and we will get your questions answered and Kate. Yes, you know as chair please just join right in and jump in whenever you want to we'll share this. Thank you. Welcome Sophie and Sharon and let's get started. Thank you Teresa who's going to, I guess, show our slides for us so again thank you for the opportunity to share an update regarding the Vermont State colleges. I recognize this is a time of extreme uncertainty and we have been overwhelmed by and deeply appreciative of the support that we've received from house appropriations and the house education committees. Sorry, as well as the state house and the governor. Our mission as you know is for the benefit of Vermont, and we do take this mission very seriously and we look forward to working with you as we face these challenges together. I guess I mentioned we exist for the benefit of the state of Vermont which we do through the delivery of a high quality affordable education, taught by our strong faculty and supported by a dedicated staff. And we're here to meet the needs of our students who like the heart of what we do why we get up in the mornings, and we share a few of their stories on this slide and on the next one. Just so you you see who it is that we work with and why we're here. And through our community college our technical college and our traditional four year residential colleges. We have different options that serve a broad spectrum of students, meeting their different needs all across the state. Our mission is inspiring it changes lives and benefits the state of Vermont through, you know our current students the graduates that we have. So I'm planning for our future and three so you can go to the next slide here too. In planning for our future we want to keep the focus on our current and future students, and by students we're referring to all students learners as as Nebby likes to call them, not just 18 to 22 year olds but high school students and adult students who are looking to make sure that they have a high school degree or unestackable credential. So the programs and educational opportunities that we have. We need to think about what was doing today and then in five years time and in 10 years time. So, we recently did a stakeholder survey we received 2400 responses within five days from both internally our students faculty and staff and we reached out to 400 plus employers and 400 plus high school partners, and in ranking their priorities for the Vermont State colleges moving forward, affordability and accessibility were at the top of that list. We're going to turn quickly to returning to campus so right now thanks to the expert support and assistance that we've received from the Vermont Department of Health. Dr Mark Levine, the ACCD Governor Scott and the support that you've already provided to us through CRF funds. The Vermont State colleges has been able to open successfully for the fall so right now, we are busy welcoming back students. We're focused on health, we're focused on safety and we're focused on providing education. So classes started this week at Castleton University, and at Northern Vermont University. They'll be starting shortly at Vermont Technical College students are continuing to enroll. They've waited till the last minute but we still have students enrolling and registering as we speak. We have NVU online that their courses will be starting at the end of August and Community College of Vermont's courses will start in September. And just so you know so far we've tested more than 1500 students to date we've had only one positive result. That student who was asymptomatic is in isolation, and they'll be remaining in isolation until cleared by the Vermont Department of Health. The protocols that we've put in place so far so good are working well. And on this slide you can see the center slide is safe and healthy return to campuses that's the mandatory guidance that was issued by the governor and then behind that are the restart plans for each of the colleges and those are available publicly on their on their websites. And again the support we got from from the legislature was enormously helpful, particularly the CRF funding. We were able to, you know, provide testing, protective equipment, change our facilities to meet all the social distancing requirements, invest in technology so students can learn from wherever they were, including, you know, synchronous classes face to face classes online classes hybrid instruction so there's, we have a lot of different varieties going on at the present time. So on the next slide we have just a summary of the structural challenges these are ones that you've already heard about previously. Pre COVID the Vermont State Colleges had already identified a number of structural challenges that are listed here, and had recognized the need for transformative change so once the virus arrived it really accelerated the timeline we were operating under. And we're now seeking bridge funding to give the Vermont State College system a window of time in which to plan and prepare for the change that we need and do it in an open transparent deliberative and thoughtful way with input from both internal and external stakeholders. And on the next slide. This points out the disruption that we've experienced with COVID-19. It's created operational risk for us health and safety, obviously for our faculty our staff and the students. It's created operational costs. It obviously costs more to for us to be delivering instruction remotely we had to increase our capacity to do that. Again, we had to create physical infrastructure with Plexiglas and to accommodate the social distancing requirements. We had to purchase significant amounts of equipment, arrange for testing. And as we know testing must be done swiftly otherwise it's meaningless so we had to get in place all those things. We've provided increased student services so we are facing challenges we have a range of options for the fall. The City College of Vermont has gone online. Exclusively they do have a couple of about 20 courses out of more than 700 courses they're providing will be some face to face for arts and labs like that but the Castleton University is primarily doing online. Vermont Tech is providing most instruction online but is having low residency programs where students come back to get the hands on and the lab work that they lab instruction that they need. And at Northern Vermont University, they're doing a combination of in person and also remote so all those things have an impact on enrollment. As expected from both Jim Page's report to the Joint Fiscal Office and from the State Treasurer's Office, we are looking at declines in overall enrollment and also in residential services room and board. By contrast, CCV is strong for the fall. One of the reasons for that may also be the McClure Foundation has offered a free CCV course for the fall of 2020 to any high school senior that graduated in the spring. So we are looking at declines in enrollment. Again, we were anticipating some declines pre COVID from just the demographics in the state. But again, you know, we have fewer and fewer high school seniors graduating from college, but we also have additional declines due to COVID part of that's due to the uncertainty around. We know what the year would look like. So we have students that are sitting out. Some people are facing changes in family circumstances with respect to a loss of jobs and other financial constraints. Some students don't care for doing things virtually and, you know, choosing not to come back. And then, you know, for those that do come back or one of the reasons not to come back is just concerned about what campus life will be like again. We're all in this strange world of being masked and socially distant and a lot of the things that one thinks about with a normal residential campus experience are going to be very, very different for this coming year. So we are looking at declines in enrollment. So the bottom line is that our anticipated budget deficit for this coming year, and that should say FY 21 we tried to correct it but I think this is the earlier version, but on the slide but the anticipated budget deficit for FY 21 is now significantly greater following COVID than we had anticipated before COVID. And so right now we're looking at a deficit of 40.3 million. So on the next slide where we're looking at a year of change. Jim Page and his report called this the year of the board but we also view it as the year of change. We want to make sure we hear from all stakeholders internal external, the legislature communities everybody, all those voices are important and we want to make sure that everyone is heard. We do have a number of task forces and working groups that are underway. VSCS forward is the system wide task force that was created by the Vermont State Colleges Board of Trustees, that was created at the beginning of June, and they have been providing reports to the Board of Trustees and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a little bit more detail. The NVU created the NVU strong advisory committee they created that earlier, following, you know, the proposal that came out in the spring. Their work has wrapped up now. They're doing their own things that they can do at NVU and one of those includes, they've built commitment from 25 employer and community partners to help develop a learning and working group at NVU campuses they're still committed to that liberal arts education but they're also looking to make education relevant and build those pathways for students to connect with, you know, local businesses and the workforce. The Vermont Tech created the transition advisory group. They also have been looking at things that Vermont Tech itself can do. Some of those things include how can they repurpose the campus, are there ways to, you know, reduce their footprint and the cost of the footprint. Invite other people to think about ways to partner with Vermont Tech to help that happen. We also have a group, a volunteer group that's looking specifically at the agricultural program at Vermont Tech. That's called the Vermont Tech Ag and Food Systems Program transformation project that's underway, and that's involving about 60 partners over the next nine months. And then this, the legislature created a select committee to look at the future of public higher education in Vermont. And that work is just getting underway right now and we have representation on that select committee. So, one of the messages that came out of Jim Page's report was, we really needed to shift from being a federation of five separate, well we used to be five, four separate colleges functioning, you know, alone, and move much more to a system approach. And that gives us the benefit of efficiencies through, you know, economies of scale, and trying to avoid duplication between our colleges. And we have, you know, high costs in terms of replicating things across the system. So we've already started making some changes to try and build that shift from the federation to a system. One of those is creating a strong system led budgeting process, which if people have questions certainly Sharon is is equipped to talk in greater detail about that. Another is looking at system driven and student focus change from the board. So again I had mentioned the VSCS forward task force. They had proposed a number of recommend made a number of recommendations to the Board of Trustees. And last week the board adopted the four recommendations that the task force had come up with. These are, I believe important they're essential. They don't predetermine what the eventual outcome of the Vermont State Colleges transformation will be, but I think they help lay the groundwork so that whatever we do in the future, we're going to be in a better position to deal with it. So briefly, those charges are to address duplicate and low enrolled programs at our residential colleges Castleton and NVU to develop plans for shared operations and program offerings, expansions at CCV and Vermont tech and look at co location of those are also making it developing a single general education core and making that available both online and in person so right now, or to make it easier for students if they take general education credits for example at the Community College of Vermont, that those can be transferred, you know to one of the four recommendations. And then finally to provide a single framework for students so that they can access remotely or through telepresence offerings across the system. So they can do that now but it's not very transparent so the goal is to make it easier for students to navigate that and so to provide more options to students, wherever they may be. So going to where we are right now. The funds that you have already appropriated for us in FY 20. We received our base appropriation of approximately 31 million and Teresa this is on the next slide if you And then we also received CRF funding for FY 20 of 12.5 million. And then in the first quarter budget and the trend the transitional budget, we were received 25% of the previous year's base appropriation. We also received 5 million in bridge funding from the general fund, and we received 7.5 million in bridge funding, but there was CRF funding. And then we received an additional 15 just over 15 million the CRF funding itself. The CRF funds are funds we wouldn't otherwise have expended. Had we not had to deal with the virus so that that 15.2 in the first quarter budget and the 12.5 in the previous FY 20 budget have gone to things like canceled student travel equipment and supplies protective equipment facilities modifications all the things that are related to increased sanitation health screenings sick leave and things like that. The 7.5 million CRF funds, we are looking to be as creative as we can with that amount and use it for things that then help cover our operational costs. So, let me just get to our final slide. Here on what our actual. Ask is is so we've been consistent throughout we've been requesting 40.3 million for this coming year. That request was generated through the reports that we received from the treasurer's office and Jim pages report to the joint fiscal office. We anticipated again looking at worst case scenario which is sort of where we are right now with the virus. We're looking at doing a lot more online and a lot less in person. Then we had hoped back when these reports were prepared back in May. They were released at the beginning of June and obviously things have changed significantly for the worse since then around the country. We're looking at the 40.3 million. And again, going as referenced in the earlier slide we've already received 5 million in general fund towards that and we've already received 7.5 million in CRF monies towards that amount. That's reflected there. The other piece is that we are expecting to have around 4 million dollars in a carryover from FY 20, which was heartening for us we didn't anticipate that originally. But it's it's due to a number of factors but in large part it's due to the support we did receive for FY 20. That was also helped by the CARES Act funding that came directly to the institutions. It was helped by we froze spending. And we also were able to renegotiate with Sodexo our vendor on food, given we sent the students home in March so we were we are looking and hoping to carry forward approximately 4 million. So, our revised request right now assuming obviously that we continue to have the 5 million and the 7.5 that was already appropriated and that we do receive the same base level for appropriation that we've had in the past. We are currently looking at 23.8 million as our bridge funding request. We do recognize this is a significant lift at a time when the state really has great need for every dollar of its revenue, and the state's been you know we're not the only one that is affected by what's happened with COVID. We are seeking this money to provide a needed breathing space. So the VSC has time to restructure and transform, you know into a public higher education system that's sustainable and meets the needs of the state and students moving forward. So that's our presentation in brief so thank you very much. You know for that and more than happy to answer any questions that you may have. Thank you. So the total bridge funding when we add together what we did in the quarter budget would be 36.3 to make up for the full deficit is adding the 4 million from your carry forward. Right, right. I just don't want people that are listening to be confused that the bridge needed is the 23.8 that's, that is what is needed, bring additional to what we put in in the quarter budget for a total of 36.3. Right we just want to make sure it wasn't double double counted that people were then deducting those amounts off right. We appreciate that thank you. We have a couple of questions we have representative helm and then representative Coupoli. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, and I lost. Somehow I don't know how I did it. Maybe I didn't do it, but I lost all my numbers that were on the screen. So I can't go back to them, but I've got some notes here. As I recall, you had a $40 million budget deficit. Right. $40.3. What, where does that, does that dissolve with any of, I think there was like 20. In the bottom of that there was 27 million or something like that 23. Yes. Is the deficit getting dissolved with that or. I don't get the way that was written. I didn't figure it out. Maybe Theresa can put it back up again. So, you know, the deficit comes from, you know, we have revenues and we have expenses and the bulk of our revenue comes from students that from our students it comes in the form of tuition. It comes in the form of room and board and it comes in the form of fees. So with the lower enrollment that we're looking at this year. We're looking at a significant reduction in the amount of revenue that will bring in. At the same time, our expenses are relatively inflexible. So while we, while we will continue to, you know, to be thoughtful of costs and would try and contain costs as best we can. We really do, we can't do commensurate cuts on the expenses to meet the amount of revenue that will be coming in that we expect to come in that the gap is simply too large. And it would really gut our ability to provide an education to the students that we have. So the amount that we're seeking the 23.8 would be to cover the gap between the amount of revenue that we expect to receive and the amount of expenses that we expect to pay out. Okay, I'll go ahead. And that includes what you call your deficit. Yeah, I'll let Sharon speak because she knows more than I do. The numbers. I'm going to respond to your original question, which was about the footnote at the bottom of the slide. 22.76, which is was allocated as Sierra funds in the transitional budget, 7.5 million of that was identified as being a portion of bridge funding for the Vermont State Colleges, and the remaining money the 1215 million approximately 15 and million change is for activities that the Vermont State Colleges would not normally have to pay for as part of its regular operations. So those monies are actually not included in the 40.3 that 15 million and change is not included in our projected 40.3 million dollar deficit. So those are things for like additional PPE facilities modifications to support a distance de densification in the classrooms, electronic equipment and facilities to be able to support remote learning. So those are not anticipated as part of that deficit, the 23.8 million and it's unfortunate that those two numbers are pretty close in size because it's confusing that our revised request is to go towards accommodating existing operations, operations that are due in part to COVID due to revenue reduction and other as Sophie said, inflexible spending. Okay. And that was on the previous slide kind of pulled out that that 15 that Sharon was talking about. That's the where the 15 is there the 15 to 58 that that was coronavirus relief funding that we anticipate using explicitly for COVID related expenses. 7.5 million with CRF funds but it was, as I understand it was explicitly hoped that that would be used for bridge funding and so that 7.5 comes off the top of the current ask that we have the 40.3. And we're looking to be as creative as we can without 7.5 million to make sure that it's again it's not the traditional COVID related expenses. We are we are trying to think of creative ways so we that will help reduce the deficit. I think that's the question that you're asking that 7.5 and bridge funding that is coming out of CRF. We are hoping to be able to use to reduce the amount of what the deficit we would otherwise have. Well, let me let me put it this way. Sophie, if I may, at the end of the year next June. So everything goes the way you project it here. Will we owe any money. Okay, what will the deficit then be. Hope is that we wouldn't have a deficit at that point for FY 21. Okay. Okay, now I think I'm getting some more. So now one more, the committee might allow me this. So is anybody looking at what happens over the next five or even 10 years. I know that's not easy. But you've got a population that frankly, some of them don't have to go to school some of them will go online I suppose. I don't know where where they all are with this whole COVID thing some of them don't even care. But is there a way that the state colleges has looked into the tried to look into the future and say, what are we going to need annually to grow back to where we need to be to be successful with with all the competition itself they're trying to do the same thing. So we, I mean, yeah going back to those structural challenges one of them is we're in a fiercely competitive marketplace ruthlessly competitive I would say, and yeah we have to I mean that's what we want this year for is really we have to redesign the Vermont State colleges to fit the need for the future. We need to figure out a way to be sustainable we need to figure out a way to serve the students and to serve the state of Vermont and to do that in a way that is sustainable moving forward. So, you know we fully understand we are not going to be able to come back here next year and say, we now need you know $50 million in additional funding above your 30 million base you give us. We need to understand that at some point when as we go through this process we're going to have to look at what are the priorities for the state and the priorities for the VSE. We need to look at what the strategies are to achieve those priorities and then we need to look at the resource allocation. So we could come up with priorities that are great but if we don't have the resources to meet them. We're going to have to take that into consideration as we plan for the future. Absolutely. In my position though is I'd rather have you tell me now for the next five years here's what we expect that we're going to need to grow at the rate in which we would like to. I'll say right now. Well, Jesus. Oh, that's pie in the sky. As opposed to having Vermont State colleges come back and say, we need $20 million every year for the next. Annually you know what I mean because I really. Now, I really don't know that the legislature is prepared to do that. But anyway, I'd like to see a future for Vermont State colleges and I'm trying to figure out a way to do that. Yeah. And just again as was referenced on one of those earlier slides I mean there isn't this legislative select committee that's been created. And we are hoping that the legislative select committee is going to be part of that conversation as to what do we look like in the future so we're, we're doing work internally as best we can. We also anticipate that the legislative select committee is going to provide direction on what we look like in the future so we haven't at this point, you know mapped it out because we're going through this this transformation process of figuring out what is it. What are our priorities what will the strategy be. So, yeah, we don't have, you know that's something that we're, we're going to be waiting and listening and working with the legislative select committee to decide what the future is for the Vermont State colleges. Yeah, and I, you know, I will close with this, you know, I apologize to the committee for taking up a little bit of time on this but and I, and I'm sorry for trying to get my car ahead of my horse a little bit. Although I don't really think I did because my ears heard the past Chancellor repeatedly tell us of his financial condition all it took was this little thing to flip him over the edge. And I don't want to bring up bad, bad things but you know so this isn't new to you or to me or to anybody else really if they want to be honest with themselves. And I think it's time for us to come to grips with the whole thing. And if you don't come to grips over a period of time, you might as well throw the towel in right now and save all the money that you would have spent trying to figure this out. But anyways, thank you very much. I mean our plan is definitely to work in partnership with the legislature I mean we again going back to our mission we exist for the benefit of the state of Vermont and we take that very seriously. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Bob I just wanted to make it clear that the deficit that that Sophie that the Chancellor is referring to is for fiscal year 21. There are other debts, there's other debts that the school system has right. I'm looking for confirmation share and yes. We do have debt service related to our existing facilities that we're responsible for paying and certainly ongoing operations and retirements that we would have obligations for moving into the future. I just wanted to make sure that since we're live on YouTube that no one mistake, there's not a mistake that or no one is thinking that this is cleaning up all the debt with the Vermont State College. So we fully acknowledge that there is a structural issue that we do need to address in partnership with the legislature, and we're very much looking forward to the results of the legislative select committee to help us identify where it is that we're moving forward. That does not mean that we aren't also actively making changes right now to help us move forward. Thank you. We have representative Coupoli and then I think it's representative felt us and James and I'll just keep going around until I get everyone. Larry. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. Sophie, many colleges and universities have retracted student aid because of online learning or distance learning have we have we made any adjustments. We haven't moved into any student aid and in our college system. We, I mean, if the question is have we reduced the cost of tuition we have not done that but we certainly have been working with students to do all we can to keep them in college and provided additional scholarship monies to help them continue their education. So given the challenges we've been working with them to make sure they continue to be enrolled, but we have not reduced the cost of tuition because the reality is that we, it still costs us as much if not more to be doing it online and I know it's we have friends that are parents with kids in college so I've had these conversations with them but from our perspective. At this point, you know our costs to provide the education haven't changed I mean, you know, with our faculty and everyone else. And in fact they've even increased somewhat with the technology and the changes we've had to make. We haven't done that but again, a number of students it will be cheaper for them if they move forward this semester if they're online because that we're going to have considerably more commuters than we would have had in the past. We have a lot fewer people coming onto campus and paying room and board so it will be cheaper for many students with the format that we have for the fall. Thank you. Now we'll move to Representative Peltis. Thank you, Larry. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify maybe for the general public and for members of the committee I think the use of the word deficit has people confused. It's not that you owe $41 million right now. I think the concern is that you anticipate you need another 41 or 40 million on top of the 31 in order to get through this year and offer the services that you want to offer. That extra amount of money is needed for lots of different reasons and because of lots of different reasons, but it's not money that you have spent that you owe when we need to get you out of the hole. It is money that you think you need in order to offer the services under the current circumstances for this particular year. So you need a total of $70 million for this year as opposed to just $30 million. And then of course Bob's question was, okay, in the future, once we figure this out, what would be the annual amount you might need at that point. And I understand you don't have that answer yet, but I just think the word deficit has some people very concerned. That's right. Right. Thank you. Thank you for the clarification. Yes, you're absolutely correct. Thank you Marty representative James. Yeah, thanks Chancellor I had a couple of questions, based on Dr pages report. And it might be too early for, for you to address these but two things I thought were so interesting. One thing I noticed was that investments that you are able to make now in online learning and hybrid formats might be really useful to the state college system. In being able to reach the adult learners that are place found it might be key to kind of help and crack that enrollment nut in the future, the adult learners that could help you know booster enrollment. And also that tuition discounts at one state college, you know might be working against, you know, a sister college, and I just wondered if it had been too early at this point for you all to really take any meaningful action on that or whether that were something you're Kathleen you're muted. Now, yes. Sorry, just wondered if that were, you know, too early for you to have taken action on that at this point I just thought those two points and Dr pages report were really interesting. Yeah, no they they both are and certainly as far as the infrastructure grows we take that very seriously and going back to representative helm that 15.7 million in CRF funding that was already allocated in the in the first quarter for CRF funds is we do plan to to invest that a portion of that into making sure we have a robust online, you know, remote delivery infrastructure. So that is definitely something we're doing. The other pieces as far as the system goes is we are addressing the competition around admissions and making sure we're not undercutting each other and I will, I just want to give a shout out to our admissions people they have, which is, you know, they've come together and have been working collectively on a on a on a group project to help with admissions enrollment in the future rather than each doing their own individual admissions efforts, because again that's that is exactly what's happened in the past and we need to stop doing that it doesn't make any sense. So we've, we have already in a very short time, moved to much more towards a system approach to things and one of those is the system budget. And I, it was touched on in one of the slides and I may maybe didn't explain it as much as I could have done. But we are looking at having one budget for the system, we are all one in one financial boat. And it's important that we function as a system and we're making decisions collectively, and not having different institutions make decisions that maybe have individual best interests but aren't in the best interest of the system as a whole. And we've been working very hard to build stronger collaborative relationships across the the colleges at the presidential level with our business officers with our returning for the fall with COVID with our HR folk women we're trying to really be be more collaborative in practice and we've been in the past and make sure that the interconnectedness that we've talked about becomes a reality rather than a nice thing to do at some point but actually putting that into practice now because we were going to have to have that moving forward. And we've been starting to build that already. Thank you. Thank you, Kathleen. Let's see, I think we have representative. Jess up and then we'll move to representative Conlon and then I'll just go right around my screen. Right. Thank you. Welcome chancellors at me. Nice to see you. So we're all watching and waiting to see what the federal government is going to do in terms of additional funds to our state. And my question is, is there anything in these charts that is reflecting a potential need for residential based campuses to go remote in terms of a refund policy around Roman board is that baked in at all. I believe our colleges have baked that in in their planning. I see Sharon nodding at me. Yes, so we did bake that into the planning recognizing that there could be potentially up to half a semester that we may need to return students home. And a lot of the students, I mean a lot of the education is going to be remote already. And we obviously have a lot fewer students on campus but again, the students that are on campus. The colleges have taken that into account if they have to pivot the way we did in March back to being exclusively online and have people not on campus. Actually, might I add one quick follow up question is, and this may not be the forum for it in terms of students who may wonder about a refund policy because I know that there are other institutions in the state that have wrestled with that question. Is there a proactive stance at this point on the state College of Vermont's refund policy for Roman board should it come to that. And then I'll be quiet. Thank you. Yeah, and when when we send everybody home in March, we recognize that we really can ask our students to pay for room and board if they were only there for half the semester. And so we we committed even and that was one of the reasons that precipitated the fiscal crisis that we had in the spring was because we knew we really needed to refund that, you know 5.1 million to students for room and board. And that was, you know, kind of what precipitated the financial challenges that we had. So, I think based on what we've done in the past I imagine we would do the same thing again if we had to, if we had to pivot. I just don't think you can ask people to pay for room and board when they're not there and they're not eating the tuition is a different issue but the room and board just seemed clear to us that we needed to refund that. Let's move to Representative Conlon. I'm trying to bounce back between Education Commission's committee. So, Peter, you have the floor. Thank you very much. Just I think I need a clarification of the bridge funding. How much of that is CRF money. And what happens if you're find yourselves unable to wedge that money into the right category in order to use it. So right now, the bridge funding that you've already given us and your first quarter budget was 5 million of general fund and 7.5 of CRF funds. We do believe that we have a way to spend the 7.5 million in CRF funds in a way that will help reduce the expected deficit. So, we're fairly confident that we can do that and we can spend that money. Thank you very much for the three quarter budget. We have not identified the fund, the source of funding yet for the remainder of the dollars. Thank you. Let's see, I think I'm at Representative Yacoboni. Thank you. Thank you both for the hard work you're doing. I have a few questions. Perhaps the first ones for Sharon. Can you tell me if you do not get the 23.8 million? When would you start having a negative cash flow situation? Or said another way, is there a deadline by which you need the money? I haven't analyzed specifically exactly when the cash flow would be negative. However, based on our earlier analysis, we would be looking at some time later this fall that it would be an issue. So, we haven't analyzed it to the nth degree. Generally cash begins to come back in for the spring semester starting in December. So, I don't know if that would likely be sometime in November that we would see some potential shortfall. I don't have a specific answer for you right now, though. That's okay. Thank you gives us an idea and a second question is this clarification. These funds. Just support the. Current configuration and services. I think my question is, they do not help us lower tuition, do they? We're no more competitive with our, with our other colleges in the region, correct? What we're not, we're not giving you more than what's needed to address lowering tuition. We're just covering what you believe your current operating and personal services expenses are. Am I correct? I mean, we do looking ahead one of the things or the two things that are critical importance to us is going to be affordability for students and improved accessibility. So I do think that will be a high priority moving forward and anything we can do to reduce our costs obviously is beneficial. And we will be looking at cost containment strategies, but right now we're not in a position, right? We're not asking you to do that at this point. We're asking for assistance to help us have this breathing space to get through this year. I appreciate that. You may not be asking, but from where I sit, it might be needed. And I think I'm going to try to take that into consideration in addition to the immediate need that you've outlined. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Dave. We have representative Hooper, Lanfer, Conquest and Fagan. Thank you. I would like to get at the question that we've been skirting around. The governor's proposal to the legislature was to provide $30 million in funding provided from what we call the CRF pool, assuming that we could get the flexibility to allocate those funds that way. We are not going to have an answer to that question of flexibility for some period of time. If we don't allocate money, if we don't provide you with the $28.8 million, when are you going to have to start making decisions about your behavior in order to accommodate the budget that you have? I may not have understood the question fully. Right now we believe that the $7.5 million in CRF funding, we can accommodate that. We do recognize and have great concerns about the December 30th deadline. In my communications with the congressional delegation, my sense is there may be some flexibility or some bipartisanship on extending the December 30th deadline, which obviously would be helpful for us. We understand we would need to be creative, but we also want to be respectful for the US Treasury guidance. So there's a challenge there, but we are trying to be as creative as we can and to think through what we can do. If money comes to us as CRF money, what can we do to use that to help offset this amount? So if future dollars come to us as CRF, we will do everything we can to be creative around that. But obviously there is that window, that $12.30 window that we're also confronting. So I have my fingers crossed that you will be able to use the money that we have already budgeted from the CRF pool. And so I wasn't addressing that. What I am concerned about is we understand and the legislature has made a commitment to provide bridge funding. The governor's budget as presented to us, in my opinion, does not provide bridge funding. It says, if we get future flexibility with CRF money, then it proposes to use that. So if we don't find general fund dollars to meet your $28.8 million need, you are going to have to start making decisions about how you're going to get through the year. And I'm trying to get a sense of when you have to start making those decisions. I think we would start thinking about them as soon as this session wraps up. I mean, if that was my understanding is you're looking to wrap up by the end of September. So, I mean, if that money was not available to us, then we would have to immediately figure out what we would do moving forward at that point. Because we do not anticipate having that flexibility. We certainly don't have it now. And we won't. Even by the middle of September is my assumption, given the way the federal government is behaving. So that's terribly relevant to us in terms of the decisions we make, generally with funding. So, thank you. We've certainly, you know, we pay attention to what's happening with the congressional delegation. I know higher education as a whole through their various groups, working as hard as they can in DC to bring these issues forward there. So, I know higher education as a whole is really committed to seeking greater flexibility extension of time so, you know, yeah. Without a doubt, and we have a fabulous congressional delegation. That's, that's not our problem. Right, right, right. Right. Thank you. Thank you, Mary Diane and then he chip and then Peter. Questions before me have, have really ticked off a few of the boxes I had written down on the side so that's, that was efficient. Thank you. But I'll just I just want to get a handle on the exact where we're at the governor has got a proposal that's a maybe and what if, but we don't know where we're going to go but the actual number for me to keep in my mind that you right now are off is actually is the 23.8 Yeah, 23.8 million is what you're off and that's if we that's with the fully funding of the base that's using the five from the CRF or the bridge money from general fund and the 7.5. Okay, so then it's 23.8. Okay, thank you. Thank you Diane chip. I just want to update there. So, Mary did a great job of exactly asking one of my two questions and I just, I just think it's worth reiterating for a second our difficulty as the legislature, given that it seems crystal clear that nothing is going to change in Washington before we're done. I mean, all indications are that we won't have any either new money or any changes in the uses of the existing CRF money before we have to make our decisions about this budget for the full year and so I just think it's, it's important that everybody that we were going to have to make decisions about how and how much we fund the state college system, essentially based on the money and the information that we have now at least in my opinion and it's, it's, it's a realization that's been making me more and more uncomfortable, but so I'm glad Mary brought that up and it's just something we'll all have to struggle with here in the next couple weeks. But the other less important but still interesting to me question is, you know, I knew we had more than one group working on on what's next for the state college system or, you know, what kind of plans we might come up with. But seeing four of them laid out in front of me brings to mind the question of what, what is the plan for how we, how you all take the, the outcomes of all those four different groups and come up with some unified plan for moving forward. I mean, the easy answer is the legislature controls the money and so their, their decisions are the ones that you might pay attention to but I just wonder, you know, what have you, what are you thinking about sort of combining the work of these four different groups and coming up with some unified plan for moving forward. So when, so when the, when the Vermont, sorry when NVU Northern Vermont University and Vermont Technical College created their groups which are two of the ones that are listed. Those were looking at their individual college level and what could they do in the short term to address the issues they had. And they came up with a number of things that they, they alone could not do. And so those were passed along to the VSCS forward group, which is the system wide task force that was created by our board. So there's, there's a pathway there. So their recommendations went up a level to the VSCS forward. We need to, to look and do work, you know, internally, but similarly there are going to be decisions we can't make internally and then I think the legislative select committee is then above us in terms of, you know, looking at things that you know external stakeholders the K through 12 system. Other other factors that we within the VSC can't control an influence so we are looking for direction from the select committee, specifically and with regard to what is it that they want the Vermont State colleges to do and provide to the state, and then what the funding will be for that. So again the less funding we have the less we're going to be able to do to help support the state and the state's economy and local communities, etc. moving forward. But that's how I see that working is there's actually a pyramid with the individual college task forces at the bottom, the VSC forward task force in the middle, and then the legislative select committee at the top. Thank you. Thank you, Chip. We have representative Fagan, and then representative web. Thank you. Sophie, thank you for coming in today. So one of the things I the only thing that I want to ask you about is, is reducing the cost of education is as briefly touched on earlier and of course part of the coronavirus relief fund package that we that we passed we gave funds to both you and then to the VSEC to reduce the cost of education for students. There was a just shy of $6 million and one of the CRF packages that we passed for you was that it was in the quarter bill to specifically for tuition reduction for students to entice them back to to to school. So many students have have used you know, are you spreading that across the all students or just Vermont students or how are you allocating those funds. I don't have an answer for that I don't know Sharon do you know the answer to that. Are you speaking specifically of the CARES Act funding that the colleges received from the federal government directly. No, no, our our CRF package of 15. $15,258,000 in in the Q one budget included just shy of $6 million specifically for reducing tuition costs for students. And what I would like to know is, is that being allocated just to Vermont students or to all students or to specific students requesting from Vermont. What we were able to do is we were able to identify students who were experiencing difficulty in being able to return. And that money is being used for that at the present time a little over $2 million of that has been allocated to students. And that is because with as late as the funding came forward, those aid packages were already in place. So as we have students who are showing additional need, who at the present time are struggling to pay their bill, we will be using those funds to help those students at this point. So it's a little equal opportunity at the moment, what's not just reserved for Vermonters, although the larger portion of our students are Vermonters. We are, you know, obviously the lion's share is going to go to Vermont. And then the other question part two of the same thing is that V sac was given an additional $4.9 million and the same in the same bill to do the same thing. Of course they have students throughout the state. They're all Vermonters, but they may or may not be going to your, your schools. Are you seeing any of those students coming in with with increased tuition assistance from V sac. We have seen students who have come in with additional assistance. I'm not that familiar with the process that be sick is using to identify those specifics but we absolutely have seen them come in. And I know those students have been incredibly grateful for that assistance. Sure, okay. Do you have a any type of percentage of students that are receiving help from the, the CRF funds that we have applied either directly to you or to you through V sac. Not at this time. Thank you for that for you if you'd like. Please. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Kate your hand was up. Did you have a question you wanted to ask. I think part of what I was interested in was just asked I do have one other question sort of following up on Representative Hooper and thinking about the future. And that the current governor's recommend is looking at CRF funding. If that's not available. The challenges that we will have in finding that amount of funding in the general fund. When we look at pre K 12 funding we know that about 80% of that is staffing. So what your percentage of staff and your cost of running the Vermont State College system actually goes to staffing. I believe it's around 75%. So it's fairly fairly similar. So, yeah. Okay, thank you. Thank you Kate, I just wanted to follow up on Peter's question. I was talking about the CRF money that went to help students that needed financial assistance, and you talked about existing students were you able to figure out any mechanism to attract new students that maybe couldn't afford school this year, and and to entice, or to help those those students who were not already enrolled. Absolutely, we were able to use those funds where we could to be able to identify students who really needed some assistance to be able to get over over the hill to be able to enroll in school, especially with the uncertainty that we're experiencing right now. Many families are very concerned about allocating funds for this purpose. And so where we can, we are able to we were able to do so. And we anticipate that there will be more opportunities to do this. So in the coming few weeks as students try and settle their bills. This is a huge time for students where they really start to be concerned about whether they're able to make that payment. Did their parents plus loan get denied. Are they really going to be able to make that payment plan. And so these are things that we will really be looking at in the coming few weeks. Sharon, it's not just did their plus loan get denied. Can they afford their plus loan. That's very true. The plus loan might be sure you need money. Here's money. Right. If you talk to the federal government sometimes their idea of what you can afford in a plus loan is a lot more than what a bank would allow you to get normally. Yes, yes it is. And when we were and when we were discussing that the application of those CRF funds for this that certainly went through my mind because I've heard a lot of people say what I just what I just made reference to, you know, I could borrow all the money in the world that I want to I don't know how I'm going to pay it back so that's certainly part and parcel of it and I would ask that you, you know, try to drive down the cost of tuition with all those funds because that was the intent. I want to be respectful of everyone's time that the formal piece we had scheduled until 315 and we are now over 315 and then we had some committee discussion built in I have four more questions that I see. Chancellor Sudak knee I did say it correctly. Are you available for a few more minutes. Yes, yes we are. Thank you. And then I did have a follow up question I'll do at the end regarding. I'll do that one at the end but let's go to we have a representative helm and then representative Austin conquest and Lanford. I will be very sure it's my second time up and I apologize for this but I wanted to just say, I'm sorry, sorry to Sophie and for being a rough sounding guy my wife is directing me that for for 48 years now, and I haven't gotten any better. But I just, I just need to reiterate the importance. I'm a I'm a big supporter, the importance of keeping the colleges intact we've got one and holding me down here, not a Vermont State College of course. And they're idle. They're taking good care of it more and longer everything but it's a shame because somebody will buy that at some point for 10 cents on the dollar but nonetheless. I think we really need to stay in tune with each other that means a legislature and the colleges and make this thing work. Thank you. Well we certainly view it as a partnership moving forward so. And it's very important and and the chair of house education is doing a wonderful job of it. The focus was always pre K through 12 and Kate we really appreciate you and your team, making it a pre K through higher education focus of your committee, because we know education doesn't stop at age 12 so thank you for your commitment. Representative Austin. Yes, thank you so much Chancellor for coming today. Back pre coven when the whole issue with the former Chancellor's recommendation occurred. I read the white paper and after reading that I just, it just appeared to me that we were looking at a business model that was unsustainable. In terms of the Vermont State College system as it existed then and exists now. So I feel like there's, you know, low demand and a high supply and I'm my concern is that we're going to spend 50 to 70 million dollars. So we're really bridging and, you know, with the task force and come back to the same place, we would have come back to back in the early spring, with the need to consolidate I mean I think I really appreciate you looking at options and alternatives, and I don't want to cover this education from our students but are you looking at a different business model that can sustain all the campuses with the national issue of not enough college students. We're looking at structural change I mean we have to we recognize that we have to have structural change and we've got to figure out a way to be sustainable moving forward while we're serving students across the state and not not abandoning students in rural areas. And I think one of the encouraging things that we see right now is there are a lot of people that are energized and committed to the Vermont State Colleges and the groups that I'm aware of that aren't, you know, formally sort of VSC affiliated groups but people are really thinking creatively and recognizing that we need to have significant change I mean I'm not hearing and maybe you guys are but I'm not hearing voices saying we need to just continue doing exactly what we're doing and and and get more money from the legislature to be just continuing on the current path. Those those really big ideas about how do we, you know, consolidate how do we become more effective more efficient and provide a better quality education to more students across the state. That's what I'm hearing there's energy and passion around doing that so I don't know what the final outcome will be but I am confident that it will look different that that people will are open to the idea of having a very different looking VSC that meets its mission serves the state serves the students but is not the same unsustainable model that we've had in the past. Thank you. Thank you, Chip. Okay, back to the question about the money that the CRF money for affordability. So you said I think you said you have spent about 2 million of the six point whatever six and a half million dollars that was allocated for that. Is there are you confident you'll be able to spend that for its intended purposes before the December 30 federal deadline or the December 20 legislative policy deadline. We're hopeful that there will be an extension of the deadline beyond December 30 when we proposed the $6 million for aid that was assuming that we would have an entire academic year to be able to allocate those funds. So two semesters the fall and the spring. If we're not able to extend that beyond December 30 if there's a possibility we may not be able to fully expend those funds. We simultaneously want to make the fall as affordable as possible for students with preserving the possibility of being able to use those funds for spring because there's nothing worse for a student, then allowing them to be able to be enrolled in the fall and then not have the money to be enrolled in the spring. So I that's a little bit of a long answer but we're keeping our fingers crossed that the deadline will be extended. If that doesn't come to pass our timing again as an issue here but I'm wondering, you know the determination that that money was to be spent for affordability was a, you know, a legislative decision on our part. I wonder if, well, is there, if we didn't think there was going to be an extension of the spending that on for CRF money, would you have other legitimate CRF uses that you could use the remainder for for example, well, for example, but if you knew by, you know, October or November that you weren't going to be able to get it all out for those purposes, and you were going to have a million or two million dollars left. Would you have other uses that fall within the CRF guidance that you could use that for? Yes, we believe so. Okay, thank you. Mary, you had a question and then I have one last one to finish up. We're right at the end of our time. Yes, the chip just triggered a question so now I have to do you need additional flexibility and any language that we may have given you in terms of restricting the CRF money. Do we need to give you more flexibility in how you expend the CRF dollars we have already given you? Question one. So our understanding from reading the bill that was passed is that the only required spending was for room and board refunds that was specifically called out as a carve out for this particular amount of money a little over $5 million. And then the remainder of the funds we were looking at as essentially fungible between activities. With that said, we are largely sticking with similar comparable spending. It may be a little bit different from an institution to institution basis. It may be the projects are a little bit different. But that is our understanding that it was flexible. That is not the case. And in the guidance that we're reading, that would be helpful to know. Okay, thank you. I think we need to put that on our list of things to check off the observation that I have that is as much is for my legislative colleagues. While we are gathered here with the Education Committee and are deeply concerned about educational issues, as several folks have pointed out, this is also an economic issue for our communities and particularly our rural communities. So I think that we also need to ask Commerce and Community Development to be partners with us in solving this problem in figuring out how to find some of the monies and the value to rural economic development. And so I just, I think we need to spread the circle of folks who are helping us figure out what to do and where to pull funds to solve a $23.8 million problem. Thanks. Thank you, Mary. And fortunately, Commerce ACCD is on the, on the legislative select committee. There's members from labor and from commerce so. Kitty, I was thinking. I'm sorry I talked over you. I was thinking the Commerce Committee. In terms of, you know, their view of decisions we ought to be making and where we could maybe pull some money. Absolutely, Mary. I'm sorry. I'd also just flag the ACCD representative on the select committee actually is from the Agency of Education. And it's Heather Boucher. So they, because I guess the Agency of Education wasn't included in the original legislation. But so ACCD doesn't, they have a designee, but it's not somebody from ACCD on the select committee. But they also put Sarah Buxton on who works it will do the interest I think of. Okay. What was development. Yes. Sarah represents maybe workforce development issues. I'm thinking specifically of community development. Jim Page and his report in a footnote commented on the significant loss to communities, noting that educational institutions have the last bulwark bulwark of economic opportunity and those communities and if you pull that out, then there's a tremendous loss that cannot be reestablished. That is, you've brought up an excellent point, Mary. And so Peter, will you please connect with Mike Marcotte and his committee, and we'll pull him into these discussions. Kate, did you have a final question or comment? No, I was just saying that in terms of the select committee that we passed, there is a requirement that there be representation from communities. That was that was added. They can be double represented on the select committee. We had left it at they would be individually represented but in the end it ended up being there needs to be at least two community development for that reminder. Sophia just one last piece you talked about in the year of change on that side in your presentation and stronger collaborative relationships. And you had the working groups in the task force listed, but we have it has come to our attention and we know that there's other groups outside formally formally established by the colleges. And how will you hear from these other groups so we're all pulling the wagon in the same direction, and that we're not working against each other so that there's, you know, real communication and lots of hearing from these other groups and listening to what they feel needs are and then ultimately having to make decisions and moving forward so that all voices are at the table how how are you managing that I should ask. Thank you. No we've been really committed to doing that. We, there are two outside of outside is not the right word inside outside groups but not formally recognized groups one is the SCS thrive and the other is our labor unions have combined to for a labor task force. So, talking about the labor task force first. They invited me they invited other members on the VSS task force force our system task force to assume town hall meeting that they did for all union members. So many of the task force, our task force folks attended that I attended it as well. We invited the unions to present their proposal to our long range planning committee which is the committee that's really talk, you know, assign the task of planning what we're going to do in the future. So they came and presented testimony PowerPoint etc VSS thrive has also shared information with me that I've passed along to all of our trustees about making the case for the VSC and in the state of Vermont they were also invited and came and participated in that meeting The long range planning committee of our board of trustees had a lengthy day when they met with the different groups including our internal task force. Beyond that we're also, you know, I personally have been meeting with individual faculty members I've met with the faculty assemblies at each institution. I've met with the faculty assembly chairs I've met with the president of the faculty Federation. We've made every effort to reach out internally to incorporate our union partners. Our task force our internal VSS forward task force. We asked each of our full time unions to provide a representative to sit on that task force and each of them did. And I will say they were they've been outstanding partners in that on the task force. We've, you know, we've, we've tried to keep the door open and gather as much information as possible. The VSS forward task force in addition. They've received input from the individual college committees that I had referenced earlier. They also received information from the community and stakeholders. Again, they did this extensive stakeholder survey just recently and got 2400 responses on that. They've reviewed information from the labor union task force as well as from VSS thrive. They've also looked at the speakers idea bank. They've looked at all the input and information that was collected through the white paper process that the previous chancellor had last year. So there's a huge amount of input that has been provided. The funnel so to speak at the moment is through our VSS forward task force but I also have engaged extensively with, particularly with our faculty with our unions internally but also with the VSS thrive folk and you know members of VSS thrive who are within the Vermont State colleges so we're trying as best we can to have all those voices be heard. I know not everyone will be happy with the outcome. We get to because that's simply impossible because they all have very different views of where we should land up but my hope is that when we get through this process no one's going to believe that they had or had a fair chance to share their viewpoints. As we move forward, the board of trustees our meetings are public that we live stream them as you do. So we've had a lot of interest in that so I think we have far more people paying attention to our trustee meetings than we did in the past where they, you know, it was quite a slog to get to those meetings and now it's much easier for people to keep track of them. So we're trying to be as transparent as we can and as collaboratively as we can but you know at the end of the day, our board of trustees is going to have to make decisions difficult decisions. And again, we'll be working with the legislative select committee to see where we we land up but we are trying to be as open as we can and communicative as we can with all the different groups that are out there that are committed and again, we're appreciative of their passion and it's wonderful and it's helpful. And I, my belief is that we'll get to a better place from having had all that input, but again I can't promise I'm going to make everybody happy because I know that's not going to happen. I think that's a good place to end this testimony I don't see any other questions and the inclusivity and the commitment to listen and respond and and and where and where this lands hopefully it's because it's a large group of people and lots of voices and communities all at the table that bring us to where we end up. Thank you very very much for having us we really appreciate it and we really look forward to working with all of you moving forward and we know this is a incredibly heavy lift ahead of us and you so thank you. And thank you for your commitment you've taken on quite a challenging task. And good luck. And very much. So for the committees. Hey, for your committee if if you would, we asked for letters, memos of recommendation, we want very informal memos we're working on a very tight time schedule, and we have to public hearings. Next week and I'm sure that in this public hearing we're going to hear for funding for the Vermont State Colleges. And so for members who want to listen in. Teresa will send out a link but our public hearings will be on Thursday at five o'clock and at Friday at one o'clock and the Senate in the House Appropriations Committee will be doing joint public hearings. So that we're not duplicating any efforts and moving this budget out as fast as we as fast and responsibly as we possibly can. Next week, sorry, next week, next week, Thursday and Friday the 27th and 28. Just a moment just to clarify for us what's come forward to your committee from the governor is really a kind of a hope about CRF funding and possibly the use of reserves is that what I heard. The conversation is open and they and they you know they're at the table to work with us to try to find to find this funding, the CRF funding we all know, unless the guidance changes it could be very difficult to be able to commit those funds and if we don't use those funds. What funds would be available. So that's an ongoing discussion. And so the following week Kate if we could get a memo from your committee and there may be several areas that the House the House Education Committee wants to weigh in on. Once you have made a decision or, you know, you've, you've found a path forward send that on don't wait for one letter that has all the pieces, send the pieces as they come so that we can start closing out budgets. Okay, and if we could have Peter Fay and join us as well. No, and we will not be sending a letter this year that states all the areas that you're impacted in the budget. That's why we're doing the joint meetings. Yeah, just not enough time to get that letter out and to pass the budget out. We have that we have that we have the numbers. I think this is the end of the meeting Mary you have your hand up. Yeah, I can't raise it virtually. The reason I kept mentioning the Commerce Committee is because I believe we're going to have to be looking in the couch cushions to solve this problem. And so I'm thinking that there are some training monies that money that was allocated to kind of entice people to come to Vermont. I don't know what has been spent already. But if we're looking in the couch cushions. I think those are some other areas that have a nexus to this issue. So I just, I think we may need to be reaching out quickly to commerce to say help us solve this problem. Peter and you will you're on that. I'm looking okay I was looking for affirmation and scrambling to kitty when did you say the hearings were Thursday. It's Thursday and Friday Thursday at five and Friday at one the 27th and 28th. Friday at one. Okay. So can you tell me again when you would like something for the following week like on the first or second. Okay, not not next week. Thank you. Sure, we'll take it next week. We'll be making any final decisions until after the public hearings because the public needs to weigh in and we need to hear the priorities of remonters, and, and then we'll make decisions following those hearings. Okay, thank you. I'll stop hyperventilating. I think the Friday hearing is at 10, not one. No, no, I wrote it down. Okay, it was a 10 and we changed it to one o'clock. Oh, you didn't tell me. And you should have received the press release. And read that again on Monday and it's also posted on our website and the Senate appropriations website and under announcements on the legislature's page. So, you're so thorough. Thank you. Lots of things that we need to read and sometimes they just get filed. So, but thank you, Teresa. And thank you to the Education Committee. I think this is a nice way to move this budget quickly with everybody at the table and and please file any run any concerns through Peter. This is his budget. Peter will be in touch Sophie with you and with Sharon as as needed as we figure out this bridge funding and good luck as the college year starts up there. I'm fully aware of the tension sending a daughter off today. Well, she leaves tomorrow morning so I have at least 12 or 15 more hours of chaos but it will happen and we will all get through COVID-19 and I'm looking forward to a very bright future with the work that you're doing in the work of of the legislative committee that has been put together to move the state colleges into a path that's sustainable and meaningful to Vermonters and those that we attract from other states and for our adult you know our adult learners as well, not that the college students aren't adults but. Thank you. Is it for us today tomorrow morning we start in at 830 with the Department of Children and Families. So I'll see everybody at 830.