 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump. Mind pump. With your hosts, Sal DiStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. This was a fun interview. Yeah, we met her when we were down in LA when you and I did the LA FedExpo. That's right. We were scheduled to do a talk on intuitive eating and then do some Q&A. There were a bunch of speakers there and we weren't impressed with a lot of them. Obviously, it's a FedExpo, so it's a ton of supplements and stuff like that. And then this young lady comes out and she's this petite, very fit woman, good posture, lots of charisma. She comes out and she starts talking. Right away, me and Adam were like, oh, shit. Let me paint the picture a little bit better because I was so impressed with the way she kept her composure because when we first got there, they had all these tables out where we were going to be speaking at. So there must have been, I don't know, roughly 20 to 30 tables. And they like to fold up ones that you get from Costco or whatever that we're all laid out so people could be sitting there and they could have a drink or food in front of them. Well, there's probably about 10, 15 people that are sitting down already and then you see people starting to come in because she begins talking. Literally in the middle of her presentation, the guys that worked the fucking, the whole arena or whatever the hell that you call the place we were at, the expo that we were at, they come in and they just, I guess they need the tables for some other events or something else. And they just start like taking the tables. People are sitting down, tables are getting lifted up over their laps and she's like, She didn't skip a beat. Yeah, she's like mid presentation and I'm like, oh my God, I'd be so fucking mad. But at least I would have commented on it, you know? But she's a badass. She had her kids with her. And so she has this product called Eat Cleaner that is all-natural, biodegradable. And what you do is you use it to wash your fruits and vegetables with. According to the tests that were done on this product, it removes 99.9% of pesticides, herbicides, and then of course, bacteria and whatever off of your vegetables and fruit. And I thought for me, I was very, I was especially interested because I know when you buy fruits and vegetables, even if they're organic, they are sprayed with non-synthetic, but still pesticides, right? There's still stuff sprayed on these things. And what do you do? Like you wash it in water, do you use soap? And now you need to soap? And exactly. Yeah, it's this vicious cycle. And to get it that clean and to get all those pesticides off, that's very interesting. That's right. So it also dissolves wax. I think I think what are the, I believe the numbers and you hear it in this episode, I think it was 40% of what you still have 40% or more residue still left on even after you, like, if you were to wash it by hand, because I mean, I was thinking the same thing, like, OK, so we spray this thing on here. But how much more or what a difference is it if I just rinse with water? And what if I scrub it really good? She knows, she talks about the statistics. And she's very passionate about organic non-GMO foods. She's been in the food industry for a while. So fun, fun conversation with this lady. Interesting product. We're all using it now. Again, her name is Mariah Ibrahim. You can find her on Twitter at Eat Cleaner Food on Instagram and on Pinterest. It's at Eat Cleaner. And then we have a code. So if you want to get the product, you go to eatcleaner.com forward slash mine pump. And then you can check out what we're talking about. What is the text? You can what did she say? What is that for, Doug? Is that we could text it? Can we actually text in and do that? That's yeah. If you send a text to 22828 and you type in ECJ free, you get a free book. Oh, very cool. Ebook. Yeah. Very cool. So free ebook doing that or use the code, not the code, but the link, right? Eatcleaner.com forward slash mine pump. Very cool. So without any further ado, here we are interviewing Mariah Ibrahim. I spoke at the Sustainable Food Summit this morning and it is a gathering of people in the industry that really want to dive deep, that understand the science behind food that are very pro, I would say pro organic, pro non-GMO. And a gentleman from Impossible Foods was speaking. And they have created a burger, which you may have seen, but it looks like a burger. And it's it's plant derived, but it is genetically modified yeast that simulates, you know, kind of a medium rare looking burger. And he got railed because he really wasn't forthright with the understanding that they're using a GMO, a genetically modified yeast in order to do this. But yet they're they're claiming that it's FDA gross and it's not. They have applied for the gross status, which is generally regarded as safe. But you can't do an animal study on a mouse for 30 days and be designated as a safe product, especially as a replacement for ground beef. I mean, you guys, you know how the beef industry, the cattle industry, they're going to snap back on that fast. Of course. And then you're talking to an audience of people who really understand health and understand ingredients and the source of these ingredients. And they so the lesson learned is come forth and be honest and be upfront. And don't lead with that foot. Yeah, lead with that foot and don't play like, you know, the answers, you know, because even if the consumer doesn't know the answer and they don't even know how to ask the question, you are then hiding something and you're going to be exposed. So you better just be upfront from the beginning. You're you're it's hilarious, even to consider that they're taking, they're trying to make something taste like something else. And it requires a ridiculous amount of science and engineering to do so. And then they're going to put that forth as a health food. You know, that's to me, that's always been comical. Like if I see something that's made from plants and it's called bacon and they've designed it and engineered it to taste like bacon, you have to ask yourself, what were all the things that they had to do? What are all the steps and things that they had to do to change the flavor of this plant to make it taste like a meat and vice versa? There's a lot of engineering and processing that goes into that. Even if the ingredients are healthy, you have this super super palatability that you start creating with foods, which that also may not be too healthy. You know, eating foods that are that are engineered to be hyper palatable can cause you to override some of these natural systems of satiety where you just continue eating over and over again, because it kind of over overrides all that stuff. So I hear you. I mean, I think, you know, at the end of the day, we were at a sustainability conference. So we're talking about how food, you know, whether it be the packaging or the ingredients or how they're sourced, I mean, we dove deep. And they talk about insects at all there. Cricket protein. No, but I did I did a trends report about it. And we dove into the cricket that very sustainable, by the way, a great alternative to beef. But what I will finish with on that whole impossible food subject, though, is if you can find an alternative for beef that simulates beef, that's safe and proven safe. I think there's something there because the amount of natural resources and water and the methane gas emissions from beef. Yes, there is an environmental impact. The problem is they're only a quarter of the way there, but they're in restaurants across the country. It's kind of like the planes flying already, you know, and they're trying to get the groundwork underneath them. I think you need to slow down a little bit. Make sure you've got your data, your studies, you know, lay the groundwork the right way and then take off. Now, did they talk about the distribution of food? Because I know when I look at studies on food and the economics behind food and why, you know, if we look at how much food, for example, if you look at the food that India produces, total food produced actually is enough to feed everybody in India. However, that's not always the case. Obviously, we have a lot of people who starve or don't get enough food. And so economists have agreed that distribution is one of the main problems. Another example would be the Soviet Union because they were centrally planned. Obviously, they weren't as efficient as a market-based economy where you could, you know, read all these different signals in real time. They had fields and fields of wheat that would go rotten because they just didn't have the efficiency in knowing where it needs to go at what time. Supply and demand tells you pretty accurately signals to you what you need to produce and what you don't need to produce by its value, by its dollar value or whatever. Did they talk about any of that? Or was it mainly just producing things that have a less impact on the environment and then how to produce more of it to have a stuff? No, distribution was definitely brought up. And, you know, you have to look at what our natural resources cost and what farmers are compensated at. I mean, we rely so heavily on farmers to create food that is inexpensive because we truly don't believe that we value it the way that we should. And so it's become too expensive for people to do anything that's not subsidized. I mean, think about that or else you have to command a certain price and it's often very hard. And then all you need is a natural disaster, something to happen to your crops and infestation and you're screwed. So distribution is directly affected by the conditions, the growing conditions, what the market will bear. They did bring something up that was very interesting. They talked about the cocoa and cocoa, believe it or not, most of the cocoa of the world is harvested in Ghana and the Ivory Coast and 90% of that is slavery. I mean, it is these children and I'm saying kids are being held to do the work, to not get paid, treated horribly and this is happening right now in our day and age. This is not a thing of the past and huge companies and I'm not gonna name them one by one but they totally know what's going on and we'll, we just go to the store and buy a candy bar and we have no idea what is happening behind the scenes. Well, 90% huh? I don't know that. 90%. I wanted to back up a second because you mentioned subsidies and a lot of people don't realize that we subsidize a tremendous amount of our food. Subsidies mean, it's basically like a tax, like everybody, they take money from the government which comes from us and they pay farmers so that they can sell their product for cheaper. It's really crappy economics, it makes no sense but a long time ago we did it as a way to either save the farmers or because we thought wheat and dairy and these types of products were staples and we needed, so let's talk about that for a second. You said something, you said that farmers can't, it's too expensive for them to try to produce things that aren't subsidized. What does that look like? Like what is subsidized and what isn't in that case? So corn, wheat and soy are the three biggest crops that are subsidized and it's not a coincidence that those three crops are also the most genetically modified. Yeah, by far. So you've got the evil empire that is selling seeds and also getting, it's creating this rabbit hole of pesticide use so as these crops are becoming more and more immune, you need more and more pesticides and then we're seeing this crazy horrible drift happening from these pesticides that are killing other crops. So it's really, it's an endemic problem now and- Are you talking about herbicides or pesticides? Pesticides. And herbicides. Yeah, because there's that too, yeah, there's that too. And so when you look at, okay, strawberries for example, it used to be that you would maybe pay $6 or $7 for a pound of organic strawberries. Nowadays, you can find them and you can find them year round. It's not even a seasonal thing. So while we may be paying an exorbitant amount for these specialty crops, the truth is the farmer is not getting the benefit of that. Like going back to the cocoa example, they may be buying it for 12 cents a pound from the actual farmer, from the grower and then turning around and reselling it for $12 a pound. I mean, the markup is extraordinary. So kind of, I guess the short answer to your question is there are no subsidies for green vegetables. There are no subsidies for growing strawberries. There are no subsidies for growing organic, certified organic. It truly becomes more of a farmer decision if they feel like, okay, I'm gonna go through this transitional farming experience for three years and I'm gonna pay all of this money to go organic and they see the light at the end of the tunnel where they can get their investment back. Yeah, maybe they'll do it, but there's a lot of steps, a lot of hurdles and a lot of money, quite frankly, that they don't have. The question I would have is, do we even want them to though? Do we even want the government to get involved in that and create subsidies for green, for green organic? No, we want them to not give anybody subsidies. Right, that would be the ideal situation. Yeah, because the subsidies, what they're doing when they're subsidizing these crops is they're sending a distorted market signal that says, yeah, it says that the public or the market demands or wants or places a high value on these particular crops. And so the market becomes distorted where it looks like we want more GMO corn, wheat and soy but in the reality, the market may not, that may not actually be the signal. If you eliminated all those subsidies and prices reflected more accurately with the market wanted, I think you would see a lot more investment in organic and non, none of those other three big crops, you see more investment in the other ones because people would buy more of those things. You're already seeing that anyway. Even with subsidized corn, wheat and soy and all the genetically modified, how genetically modified they are, you're still seeing, I tell you what, 10, 15 years ago, I didn't see an organic section at Safeway. You had to go to a specialty organic store and now you're seeing organic everywhere and that's because the market is demanding it but it's still distorted. If they eliminated those subsidies, I think it would happen much faster. Well, and it's a tricky thing because a lot of the subsidized crops are actually feed for animals. So you're number one. Cost of beef would go up. Yeah, exactly. And guess where a lot of that interest is? It's, yeah. So when you look at, and let me back up too, less than 10% of the crops that are grown in the United States are certified organic. So it's still a very small piece of the pie even though it's gotten a lot bigger. At the end of the day, I think what's really important is that farmers look at raising whatever they're raising in a sustainable way. And sustainable to me can mean that they are using as few pesticides as possible. Maybe they're not certified organic but they are being mindful of the impact on the environment. Cause guess what? Not all the organic pesticides are good for the environment guys. I mean, just because we hear the word and I'm gonna sound like I'm kind of sidestepping this, but just because it says it's organic doesn't mean that it's necessarily healthy. Of course, we say that all the time. Yeah, so I mean, I've got an avocado rancher friend who's like, Maria, I would love to be able to make my ranch fully organic because the amount of pesticides I would need to use would be so expensive prohibitively. I would have to charge $5 an avocado. And not to mention the impact on the environment would be horrible because of how much I would need to use. So I think we need to encourage more local, more biodynamic, more using a system that cultivates different crops in an area so that you have the benefit of nutrients feeding each other and putting that back into the soil. Cause what organic does is it feeds the soil. It gives the soil the nutrients without eroding the top soil. We need to keep feeding that so that we actually are able to grow food that's got some nutrient value to it. I was talking to, I think it was Dr. Zach Bush who was actually talking about how the soil has been depleted for so long and there's these nutrients within soil that bacteria use to communicate with each other that we don't get as much anymore. And he thinks that's one of the reasons why we're seeing such a explosion of immune issues related to the gut. And he talks about how that process first started which was, I got early in the early 1900s where we figured out that we could just put nitrates into the soil and plants would grow. And we wouldn't, so the soil became depleted of everything except for the one thing that made plants grow big and green. And we thought, well, that's okay, that's good. Now we have plants that are dead. We have insects that aren't getting what they're supposed to. And you have these, we're creating these situations where, like you said, like we're creating super weeds, super beaks and super, similar to how antibiotics are doing. We have people now that are dying of infections that used to be able to be treated 15 years ago with simple antibiotics and now they can't, it's very similar, plants and insects, they evolve and if we keep dumping, I know that glyphosates for example, the amount of glyphosates that we dump into the soil is we would have to, if we stopped right now, I think it would take like 30 or 40 years before it cycles out. That's how much is in there. I would wager, even if anybody listening today says, I only eat organic, I would put money on it that you would find glyphosate in your urine. That's what's in the rain, yeah, exactly. It's gonna show up and sometimes at really alarming levels. So, I mean, and this sounds like doomsday right now because like, what the hell do you eat, you know? You're telling me my plants are contaminated, you're telling me the sea is, you know, you've still got plutonium in it from Fukushima, you know, you've got antibiotics and steroids and meats. What the hell do you eat? Right, air. No, air is not clean either. Presbyterian, yeah, yeah. Are you familiar with companies like Thrive Market? Do you know anything about Thrive? We actually sell our products on Thrive Market. Oh, no way. Excellent. I didn't know that. Big fan of what they're doing. Let's take a step back for a little, tell us a little bit about your background. Obviously, you're very passionate about food and food quality and Adam and I met you at the LA Fit Expo. We actually went down there to talk about intuitive eating and you spoke before us. And we never bring a girl home on the first time medium. So this is totally out of the norm for us. She must be special. Well, thanks guys. But we were really impressed with your presentation, how you talked to Charisma, had some questions about your product. We want to invite you down, but tell us a little bit about your background. Why are you so passionate about these things and what are you doing in this industry? Thank you. So, and likewise, you guys were great and very compelling and I believe so much in the concept of intuitive eating. I talk about it a lot in my upcoming book too. Awesome. So I am Middle Eastern and we grew up in a household that was eating breakfast and talking about lunch and eating lunch and talking about dinner and what we were gonna eat in between and then shopping for it. So life really rotated around food and there wasn't a lot of convenience there. I grew up in Egypt and we would go to the market for everything. We would buy live chickens. We would buy produce from the produce guy and herbs from the herb guy and bring our bags to the oven to get our fresh bread. Nothing was packaged. Everything came from the source. And then when we immigrated here, I just saw such a huge shift. We would walk into these sterile grocery stores where nothing seemed really fresh. You didn't know who you were buying it from. You had no idea what the source was. You had no idea how long it had been sitting on the shelf and everything was in these packages and it just was such a stark contrast for me. So early on in my career, I decided to go into the culinary world and I studied, I went to culinary school in France and I started working for a chain of natural food stores in Colorado called Alfalfa's Markets and I was their marketing manager for a while and started writing. I knew I wanted to use my love for food and understanding where our food comes from but not sit in the kitchen all day. So kind of to bring it full circle, I cut my teeth in that grocery industry but writing, doing the research, interviewing farmers for our store, writing stories about them, sharing that with our customers so they understood where their food came from and doing events in store where people could experience that food. And then I kind of, so I've dabbled in different areas of food, marketing, PR, writing, cooking and about I guess 10 years, no, little more, 12 years, because my son is 12, it happened right when he was born. I think we met when you're one or two years, right? You did, yeah, you met both of them. Yeah, I dragged them everywhere. I'm like, mom, God, really another event. But I'm a single mom and I think it's really important for my kids to see how hard it is to build a career, to do what you love but at the same time find satisfaction in that. So yeah, I cart them along with me. But what really was a huge game changer just in how I perceive health was number one, having my kids and understanding that everything that I put in my body affects their health. It imprints their DNA. So that crappy lunch that I had that I was just like, that's not a big deal. The doctor was actually telling me to be careful of what I was eating for the first time ever. I had never heard that message before, you know? Don't drink diet soda. Watch out for raw uncooked fish. Watch out for, because of the mercury, you know, watch out for preservatives and colors and things like that in your food. I had never heard that message. I grew up with it in the natural foods industry but no health professional had ever said to me, be careful. And then my dad got cancer. My dad was diagnosed with bladder and prostate cancer and my son was just born and my dad had to have his bladder removed. And he uses a catheter. He has an open stoma in his bladder area where he literally inserts a tube every time he has to relieve himself. And it was devastating, you know? It was devastating to see how it affected him, how it impaired his lifestyle, how it really affected his well-being and how he saw his life, his mortality. And what scared me the most was what the doctor then told him. The doctor told him to avoid raw produce, all raw food. So not only sushi and things like that but avoid eating raw salads, especially avoid eating raw greens. And I was like- Was this because he was afraid of bacteria or something for you? Yes. Okay. So when you have somebody that's that immune compromised, we don't even think about it because we're like, oh, it's greens. But greens are the number one cause of foodborne illness. They're the number one cause of E. coli, salmonella and some variation of those, listeria and norovirus and all of the myriad of other foodborne illnesses that it's not a sexy conversation, but the truth is it can kill you. And at the very least, it can put you in the hospital. I have customers who call me literally on the phone and say, I am so glad you created this product but let me back up for a second. So after that happened and my dad recovered, I was like, we've got to find a cure because knowing what I know about nutrition, you have to be able to eat salads. You need to be able to eat foods that provide you with enzymes that are uncooked, that are in their whole state and not feel like you are playing Russian roulette every time, you know? So we created a formula. My dad's an environmental scientist and I have no idea anything about chemistry. I was just like, you lead the way and I'll let you know what ingredients can't be in there. And we tested nine different formulas, everything from vinegar, because I know a lot of people out there listening right now are like, I use vinegar and I'm gonna tell you something that's not enough. Vinegar's only about 80 to 85% effective. And we wanted to create something that was 99.9% effective, which would be a log three reduction in the world of bacteria to log five, which is 99.999. Because if I tell you, you only have a .0001 chance of getting sick, don't you feel a little bit better than me saying, you've got a 20% chance? So it took us almost two years to develop the formula that we have now and it's called Eat Cleaner and it's non-toxic, plant-based, very simple science. There's seven ingredients in the formula that's lab proven to remove up to 99.9% of the pesticide residue that's on the surface of your produce. Wax, which can't be removed with water. And the contaminants that can carry bacteria that can really make you sick or kill you. So this is a wash that you use on produce, vegetables, fruits and it rinses all those things off. Does it leave its own residue on the vegetable plant? No, so it's completely biodegradable and what it does is you're basically chelating, sticking to the residue that water can't remove. And you're giving it a quick rinse afterwards with water. And what I would always tell people is, what else do you clean with just water that comes out of the ground? I mean, have you guys ever farmed anything or grown plants? There's shit in there. I mean, it's manure, it's fertilizer, it's, you're talking about environmental or ecological waste. So if you think that you're just gonna put your hands in it and then give it a quick rinse and it's gonna be okay to eat, you're crazy. And how many people have touched it? Where was it trucked from? How dirty was that truck? Was it sitting on the floor, the back of the retailer? How many kids sneezed on it and picked their noses and then picked it? You know what I'm saying? You just don't know what your produce has come into contact with. Yet we're being told to eat 50% of our plate produce and for the vegans and vegetarians out there, I hope they understand. When you are ingesting that, well, for everybody, when you're ingesting that much produce, it builds up in your system. So you might not get sick from it today. It may incubate in your system and 24, 48 hours from now, maybe even longer, that bacteria can manifest itself. I'm more interested too in just rinsing off the pesticides because, you know what I mean, immune system's pretty strong. I do wash things in water, but you're right, it doesn't do much, but it's the pesticides I really don't like, because that builds up over time. Well, I'd be curious too, how much pesticides are actually on the surface and how much of it are actually in the plant because it's in the soil. So what's the difference? So pesticides are interesting. I learned a lot from my father about this. So a pesticide is usually, it's applied topically and it can become endemic, which means it goes up into the root system. But most pesticides have a half-life, which means by the time they're harvested, there is a cooling off period where pesticides are not supposed to be applied. So in theory, most of that pesticide residue that's endemic has literally evaporated. It's deteriorated to the point where it's not effective anymore, it's degraded. So really, the majority of it is on the surface. Really? Wow. Yeah, and they even talk about how certain vegetables like avocados or whatever, because the skin is so thick, if you wash it, yeah, you're probably, okay, I think bananas was right. Bananas are also, absolutely bananas, melons, anything that potentially has a skin or a thick peel that can be removed, we always say, choosing organic, and by the way, organic does not mean they don't use pesticides. It just means they use organic approved pesticides. And I think that's a big misnomer. People think they're buying organic and they're buying something that's pesticide-free and that's just not true. But you can wash the vast majority, and I mean wash with something that is a solvent, because think about it, when it rains, if they were using pesticides that were water soluble, they would just wash right off. So the really crappy ones, the really scary ones are not water soluble. They need to be removed with something that can dissolve that well. What's the worst, berries? What would you say is the worst? Let's get the worst. Strawberries. Yeah, I'd say strawberries. Strawberries and apples and peaches are the top three that generally top the list of pesticide usage. The statistic is like 54 to 55 different pesticides can be used on an apple. More on strawberries, about the same on peaches. Now during this whole process of creating this product, did you guys find anything crazy in the studies or find anything when you're going through this? That was surprising. Yeah, our strawberry study was shocking to me because I was like, okay, people were like, okay, you can remove 99.9% of the pesticide residue from an apple, but that's got a firm surface. What about a strawberry? And I was like, what about a strawberry? Let's test it. So we worked with a third party lab and they incubated the strawberry or they injected the strawberries with the pesticide, okay? So they actually applied it internally and on the surface. So we would be testing both. And then they macerated the strawberries or excuse me, they use the product on the surface and then they macerated the strawberries. So they would have to test if there were any pesticide residues left over inside. And what we found was we reduced the load by over 98%. So total on the total strawberry. So what that said to me is, okay, the products is actually absorbing to some extent to the inside of the strawberry because it's porous. And again, I feel pretty good saying, we can remove over 98% when, if you do that on a regular basis, you're getting the benefit of the pesticides going away, the bacteria being reduced significantly. And one thing that we created was the ability for a to extend shelf life. So you've got a product that's, if you're doing meal prep or you're one of these people that's like, I don't buy fresh produce because it goes bad before I can eat it, you never have to throw it away again because it's helping it last up to five times longer. So one question that pops up for me with this is, because not all bacteria is bad, obviously we have an internal microbiome that's very important to our health. If I'm washing my vegetables and fruits with this product that kills bacteria or eliminates bacteria, and when I gest it, am I ingesting something that has any type of an antibiotic property that may affect my gut bacteria? No, so think of it this way, when you wash your face, for example, you're removing what's on the surface and you're removing basically dirt and debris and things like that. So that can carry the bacteria. So what we're doing is we're getting rid of what can carry the bacteria. So it's not antibiotic. It's not an antibiotic. It's allowing it to get rinsed off. Correct, because it's getting under what water can't. And this is a very important thing for people to understand. About 80% of our produce is waxed. So they're using an oil-based wax and you can't remove that. So if it's getting waxed before it's getting washed, guess what? It's trapping all of that crap under the surface. It reminds me of when you clean your shower and you get the scum or whatever that won't come off of water. So you have to use a special spray that allows it to become soluble with water so you can rinse it off. Kind of like that, although it's different, right? Yeah, I mean, that's a good analogy. I always say like, maybe you guys don't do this, but for the ladies out there, when you use like a facial mask, maybe you guys don't. Adam does, right? Do you guys do masks? We do each other's masks. I want to see that. Yeah, I do my own mask. But when you use a mask and it kind of sucks out the impurities, it's basically the same idea. Interesting. So you've been in this industry now for a little while, right? You started backed out in that grocery store chain, which was how long ago was that? If I say I'm gonna disclose my age. She's not on a date, but I know. You can do that. You look fantastic. You obviously work out. You're obviously very fit. So I think it would be an attribute anyway. 25 years. Okay. So you've been in the industry for over a couple of decades. What are some of the trends and things that you've seen have changed since you started versus now? And do you see a different trajectory or what do you see moving forward with this industry? Because I've seen it change dramatically over the last, just 15 years. And I find that we're fascinating. Yeah, we're 15 and 20. So it's always interesting to talk to somebody who's got as much or more experience in the field as we do. Yeah. There are a lot of changes. It's a fast moving train. I'll kind of take you guys back to when I first got started is when the whole organic certification was just getting started. Really? Yeah. And there was a lot of confusion, especially in the scientific community because for anybody who is science based, the term organic doesn't mean anything. It means made of carbon. And I remember my dad saying, that's just bullshit. What are they trying to sell with organic? What is that even? Everything is organic. But what they felt they had to do was create a standard so that there was something to comply to because otherwise it's like the Wild West. But okay, so that in and of itself is a good thing because I think it helps to create a standard of sustainability and to some extent health, but not always. The problem with that is people don't understand it. Here we are 25 years later and I would wager you to ask somebody what certified organic means and have them give you a proper definition. So with that, non-GMO, there was a really funny Jimmy Kimmel thing where he was out on the street and he was asking people, do you eat GMO products? And people were like, no, no, non-GMO, non-GMO. And then he was like, well, what does GMO stand for? And they were like, uh, I don't know, you know? So we wanna be, I think we have a thirst to be educated. I think we are so connected with social media, you know? We wanna stand up and millennials out there are like, I have a right to know where my food source is and where my food is coming from. And that's the right place to be. The problem is I don't know if anybody really understands it. Just like the use of pesticides. Well, there's so much smoke and mirrors in it too, like even the organic game. I mean, that's like the game now is just to say that it's organic free or what were we just talking about the other day now? When gluten comes out bad, all of a sudden you see the response. Gluten free water, gluten free water. Gluten free wine, I'm like. Why are you putting that on the label? Grapes are gluten free, dude, you know? Like, what are you talking about? So you wonder why, I mean, that's why people are so confused cause you get all this stuff that comes out with marketing right after. And then you have fitness professionals, you know, who are like personal trainers and nutritionists who are helping trying to talk to people about losing weight or cause that's a very common goal. And people are like, but I only eat organic, you know, I eat organic donuts for breakfast. Right. I have organic cereal for lunch. It's like, okay, it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, you're gonna lose body fat. So, but you've seen it from when it became a standard, a new standard too. Now, has it changed the organic certification process or what does that even look like? Like how, if a farmer wants to be organic, what does the process look like? What do they have to do? How often do they get, you know, looked at by officials like, is that hard or is it right? That's a great question. Yeah, when do they come in and check? Oh yeah, that's a great question. So there are standards in the upfront, okay? And it's a three year transition process. So if you're a conventional farmer, and you know, at the end of the day, I think it's the right thing to do because a lot of these conventional farmers don't really have, they're making the change because there's something that's happened. Their family's gotten sick or their employees have gotten sick. I met an organic farmer in Watsonville that decided to go organic because he had three of his workers that got cancer. Whoa. So there is an impetus there to clean up your act. It costs money, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, which sometimes they don't have. But the hope is that they can command a better price for an organic crop. But I think that's the right thing to do, but then I come back and say, okay, so organic Oreos, like seriously, organic, you know, products that are full of sugar or full of organic white flour, like that doesn't mean crap to me. And I said it today. I said it in front of the, I was like, by the way, just cause it says organic doesn't mean it's healthy guys. And you could hear the mic drop, you know? But I had to say it because I get tired of the term being abused. Eat whole food, eat lots of plants, eat lots of greens, eat high quality foods, you know? Tell me, don't tell me what you don't eat. Tell me what you eat, you know? I think that's where we get really bogged down because we like these, okay, coming full circle, Sal, labels. We want a label. We want to say organic. We want to say non-GMO. We want to say gluten free. We want to say vegan. We want to say paleo. We want to say keto. But how about we just, we eat balanced real food, you know? I just wonder why we feel so strongly that we need to label ourselves. When it comes to the certification of being organic, is that, I've heard, and I don't know if you know this or not, I'm asking you because I know you're in the industry so I'm not sure if this is something you can answer, but I've heard people tell me that the process of being organic can be, once you get it, it's almost like nobody really checks and it's not that strict. And I don't know, I've heard that from people for, people who've worked on farms. Is that true or is it a standard that you should aim for and then go further like other independent sources that will tell you, yes, this is organic, plus it's also certified, you know, by the non-GMO organizations. I mean, what do you think about all that? I'm not as intimate with the auditing of the farms. I can tell you that one of our products is Omri certified. So it's a type of organic certification where it's certified for use on organic produce. So we have a product that inhibits enzymatic browning on apples and avocado. Oh, she sprayed it and didn't turn brown. Right. Oh, okay. Or you soak it. People that make cut apples that can last 21 days use our product. It's all natural. I mean, there's nothing in it that's not plant-based. And we, I'll be honest, they never came out to the facility to check it. We provided them with all the documentation for our producer, our co-packer. They checked the labels on the ingredients but nobody actually came out to check. And every year we have to get recertified and pay a fee. Guess what? That's all they want. You know? I never got checked. So I worked on one of the first three ever organic dairies in California back when I was a kid and when I didn't even know what organic was. And I remember that all they did was, so they would come and when they picked the milk up, they would do a test and we had like ABC or degrading. And in order to, I had to pass, if it was gonna be all the tests passed, then they could be A, which is they could turn around and sell it for organic. And if for some reason something got contaminated or got in it, it would degrade it to like a B and then we'd have to sell it for a cheaper per gallon. But as far as like regulations and paying attention to what we're doing there, and it's just the main stuff that they're looking for. So for us, I remember it was like hormones because that's with the dairy industry, that's the big thing is to pump the cows with hormones. So they're producing four or five times the amount of milk, but I mean, I was there for three years and I never saw any sort of anybody come down to audit or do anything. Yeah, some of the arguments for local are, obviously it doesn't need to travel as far so that that's better on the environment. Yeah, let's shelf life. And because it's closer, maybe you can keep an eye on a little bit and you know the people you're getting the food from. So that there's that level of maybe an extra level of security and knowing that there's some integrity with your food. So interesting. Well, and that contributes to the nutrient content too, because the longer it's in transit, the more you're seeing, you know, like vitamin C, for example, six days after an orange is picked, it's lost a lot of that vitamin C up to 40%. So always going local, I think is really a great way to go and it connects you with your food source. You get to talk to the farmer, you get to understand, you know, ask questions, you get to be part of a communal shopping experience, which I think has a ton of benefit too. And even growing a little bit of your own, I mean, so one big trend I think that we're gonna see as people, you know, ask the question, where do you go? Where do you go to get sustainable foods that are not completely tainted? And I think what you're gonna start to see is more people growing some of their own, raising some of their own. I mean, I talked to people who have chickens and you know, yeah, chickens, eggs, you know, growing a little bit of produce, you can do it in a vertical growing system with no land, just so that they can feel some sense of security that they're taking up a part of that. And even my son's school, you know, they have six gardens on their property. My kids too. Yeah. It's so interesting how much has changed because it used to be, if you were poor, you grew a lot of your food. Now it's like the middle class and upper who have the chickens and are growing things. It's a different dynamic. It's totally different. And you know, the landscape has changed a lot. I mean, when you go, you know, pre-industrial revolution, a lot of the country was farmland. And today it's like a fraction of the country is farmland, but it produces a ton of food through efficiency and through, even through GMOs and stuff like that and figuring that kind of stuff out. So it's an interesting problem to tackle because the first issue was, can we get enough people, enough calories? That's really what it was all about initially. Like we need more food. And so quality wasn't even, it wasn't even something that really anybody thought about because it was just food. Nobody thought about that. Now we've got the food production. We're looking at better distribution, which markets are really good way of doing that. And now we're looking at quality where people are willing to pay a little bit more to get better quality. Where 15 years ago, if you saw two steaks and one was organic and one wasn't, but it was $5 more, you're not gonna buy the more expensive one who cares. What does that mean? I'm just gonna get the cheaper one. Whereas today now, whole foods is becoming a, they made their mark that way by putting these kinds of foods out there. So I find it very fascinating and very interesting how the market is starting to shift. Well, and I think when you look at some of that, there is some misleading terminology happening. I mean, you know, grass fed, grass finished. You know, has the cattle really been grazing on grass the whole time or was it grass finished where basically at the end, they were eating what they were supposed to? Wow. What does free range mean? Just wait, I'm back up there. That's a good point right there because grass fed beef is marketed like crazy. So you mean to tell me that someone could put grass fed beef on there, but then the whole time it was being grain fed, but just for the last bit of its life, it gets grass fed. It can be. No shit. Okay, you gotta give me more of these. I did not know that. That's fascinating. So the whole idea of free range, okay? Yeah, you can command a much higher price, right? For free range, chicken, cage free. Okay, what does cage free mean? Does it mean that the chickens are roaming around all day long? It means you let them out once a day. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm not joking you. So again, I go back to- Pasture raise is what you want. Pasture raise, right? Pasture raise. That's where they're actually out in the grass. Cage free really doesn't mean much. I mean, I've seen it with my own two eyes. Like they'll let them out for a little walk, five minutes, 10 minutes, they're back inside the cage. Let's talk about all the terms that don't mean shit then because there is a lot of those. There's a lot of fluff out there on labels that people pay an extra dollar or two because they think it sounds better because they see it on the label or they heard some buzz term. What are the biggest culprits with that? Well, I think we just named a couple. I think to some extent organic only because I think we touched on this but you can get organic certified and then who's auditing the process. I think the whole idea of additive free or- All natural. All natural doesn't mean anything. Well, all natural doesn't mean anything anymore. And they're starting to crack down on companies that are using that label anyways. But additive free, preservative free, what do you classify as a preservative? Is it considered gross or is it salt? Salt's a preservative. And I think of course the word healthy means nothing. I mean, who wants to take a stab at defining healthy? I mean, that's like a shit show. I think it used to be that healthy meant nutritious but it's definitely not used that way anymore. So when somebody says I eat healthy, I'm always like, okay, what do you eat? Like if you're eating just gluten-free bread and you're eating, I don't know. Vegan chips. Yeah, I mean, there's the vegetarian cheese and cracker people that I just, what I encourage people to really look at is what are you eating? So I think healthy is full of air. What do you think about a company like Whole Foods? Do you think that's a company that takes advantage of the buzz term organic and doesn't really pay that close attention to some of these details? Or what are your thoughts on them as a company? This is mind pump, by the way, you can say what the fuck you want. She's like, they carry my products. They don't anymore, actually. I don't have a vested interest in supporting that. It's a business, okay? I think that if you walk the Natural Products Expo, which is the largest natural foods trade show in the country, maybe the world, it's right here, well, it's in Southern California in Anaheim, you will see more packaged products than you could ever imagine exist. And where are they sold? They're sold at places like Whole Foods. Now, I always say convenience begets laziness, okay? The more you confine, like, seriously, do I need to buy a hard boiled egg that's been cooked for me? Like, has it really come to that, you know? Oh no, don't tell me. And they're peeled. They'll come in like a bag of like, like four, yeah, pre- But the problem is they're soaking in preservatives, you know, so I don't know. It's really hard, you know? Do we sacrifice our ability to get foods because they're convenient? I mean, you know, look, there's only a few things we need to survive and food is one of them. I think we owe it to ourselves to put it on the front burner, you know? I think we owe it to ourselves to say, I'm gonna take half an hour or an hour every week and I'm gonna get some food prepped and it doesn't have to be fancy and I can eat a lot of raw food. I can make salads. We don't have to complicate the preparation if we don't want to, but I think we owe it to ourselves to eat as close to his nature intended. The more we buy food that is in the center store that's stabilized, that's, you know, and there's some good advancements. HPP, high pressure, pasteurization is becoming a big technology advancement for a lot of different things like hummus and other things that used to be, you know, you had to use other means. What exactly is that? So they use a high pressure liquid water form of pasteurization. So it does help to preserve the integrity of the food more and the nutrient content so you can get more shelf life out of some of these products. You know, I go back- So it's not heat, you don't have to heat it up or add anything to it? Yeah, so it's not killing the enzymes like you would get with heat. But I just, I go back and say, if you, you know, really what do we need to survive? Is it a full store full of packaged goods? Whether you're a Whole Foods or a mainstream grocer, I mean, the mainstream guys are doing organic too. They have huge sections that are dedicated. Does it mean it's bad? It doesn't mean it's bad. It just means I don't think we should be bulking up on packaged foods, period. It's all consumer driven. So for me personally, the reason why I think the industry's changing and shifting and there's a lot of good things that I see especially compared to 15 years ago is because the consumer's just demanding more. So I think the answer is more just continue to educate the consumer so that the consumer starts to make these educated choices and then the, you know, producers and the distributors have to follow the market. They have to make more of these products. I was in, I tell you what, it was impossible to find a non-artificial sweetener that wasn't sugar in coffee shops, you know, five years ago. You didn't. You went to any coffee shop and it was either sucralose, aspartame or sugar. Now you're seeing Stevia. Yeah, Stevia, raw sugar. Yeah, Stevia in particular. Like, and although some of those are super high processed themselves aren't necessarily great options. It's funny because it's the market now. I mean, Gatorade, organic. Now they have organic Gatorade, you know? And so I think it's- What's the sugar on that? High 30 grams or whatever. Yeah, so it's the, really it's the consumers that are driving it. So as we become more educated and make different choices then we'll see more money getting put into giving us what we want. And the problem is people for a long time wanted convenience and they wanted taste and that was it. So those are the two areas that most of the money went into. I mean, you go into some of these companies that make some of these processed foods and the vast majority of money that goes into the food goes into how palatable it can make it and how long the shelf life is and market it. And that's it. Very little goes into the actual nutrition. Can I microwave it? Yeah, it's like the nutrition basically is, okay, this isn't gonna kill anybody cool. Now how do we make it taste as good as possible? So that's where all the money goes into because people value taste and convenience but as people start to value quality and the source and you know, I'm even starting to see now people are valuing the way that companies just their ethics. I'm starting to see now soaps that are fair trade certified and stuff like that and they cost more. And the only reason why it's on the bottle is because people are looking for it now. So I think we're moving in a pretty positive direction although you've always got the side shows, right? Where like we were talking about earlier, gluten-free organic candy, it's not healthy at all. How long have you been in business now with your company? We are going into our eighth year now. Oh, wow. We have expanded our distribution so that we're not just selling to consumers but we also have a B2B play so that processors, retailers that are doing fresh cut programs can use our products to put forward a cleaner, healthier, convenience item but that's still fresh. So eight years, how's the business growing? How's it been moving in that entire period of time? It's pretty incredible to see how the demand for fresh food has also increased the demand for our product. Have you seen a change in that whole period of time of eight years where all of a sudden it was like, boom. Yeah, especially on the B2B side. Really? Yeah. Where the larger processors are looking for cleaner alternatives that are non-toxic, that are non-corrosive to their equipment that are good for worker safety. So I think that's where manufacturers are stepping up because they see the value of taking care of their employees. I just wanna touch on, you've brought something up that I think Whole Foods does a great job. They tell the story. They give a venue and an outlet for telling the story. So if it is fair trade or if it is a local farmer, I think they have done a pretty laudable job of that and at the end of the day, maybe some of these terms are a little bit full of error but at least we're getting a little bit more of an education. Yeah, I see that when they rank their meat and tell you what that rank means, like how far they've checked and all the sources and stuff like that. I personally like that. I'm wondering, based off your background, if you've seen any sort of technological advancements and I know me personally, I've talked to somebody, you're on who works for this company called Neutrino, but they have their hands on a lots of different ground breaking sort of disruptive technology that will help the consumer themselves actually evaluate the quality. Oh, you mean like scanning just? Like a spectrometer type of a device where it's handheld and they can actually scan through like, have you seen anything in that direction and what do you speculate as far as what that will do? Yeah, well, I mean, we touched on HPP, which I think is a huge technological advancement and being able to control bacteria without compromising the nutrition of the food itself. And I think you're gonna see a lot more of that. Actually, there was a company that spoke at the summit, the founder of Annie's started a company called Once Upon a Farm. And believe it or not, there is no fresh food category for babies, for baby food. All the baby food that you find on the shelf is shelf-stable and they are creating- A loaded full of sugar, too. Yeah, that's true, I haven't seen anything. And they're creating the first fresh product for babies. Oh my gosh, that's so money. That's HPP, you know, because of HPP. So I think those innovations are gonna go far. You know, in terms of I don't have as much contact to the types of tools and things like that that you're talking about because I think for me, our products have been so focused on helping people enjoy fresh food. You know, when I started the company, my commitment was to give my father a way to be able to eat a salad without being hospitalized. And he loves salad. You know, so at its base level, I wanted him to be able to enjoy it without feeling risk. I also wanted to be able to address the whole raw seafood situation, which people eat sushi like crazy, but you have no idea. Parasite can put you out for the rest of your life. And I got a call from a woman, we sell our products on Home Shopping Network. So she saw me on HSN, she called and she, you know, I picked up the phone. She was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm getting to talk to you. I'm like, hey, if you call, I'm gonna answer the phone. I really believe in that with our customers. That's number one for me. But she told me about getting a parasite and how she had been hospitalized and really thought that she was going to die. And she said she had never been in that much pain in her entire life. She's in her seventies. And you can easily get a parasite from raw seafood. So we created a wash for seafood and poultry where you can still enjoy, you know, something that's considered pretty raw. I mean, it's kind of cured a little bit because there's citric acid in it, but at least experience a healthier version of sushi by treating it with our product. Oh wow. So, you know, that's been really my focus. And, you know, just as a chef and somebody who tries to encourage people to eat cleaner with our cooking show and our recipes and videos and things like that, I wanna show people that it's not cumbersome. It doesn't have to be time consuming. It doesn't have to be expensive. You can do this economically. If I can do it on a single income for my family of three, you can do it. And I think it's just giving that a little bit of attention, giving it a little bit of a priority. I mean, think about our grandparents. They didn't have the luxury of going into a grocery store or having a pizza delivered. Like, how did they strategize? There was a simple strategy. It wasn't rocket science. And I sure hope we don't get so disconnected with our food that we just give it up to somebody else to take care of it for us. Well, that's just the scary part is that all the signs are pointing that we are. You know, all the signs are pointing that we're becoming more disconnected from us. I mean, how often do you see people looking at their phone while they're eating? That mindless eating right there is kind of showing that there's definitely a division. We've got this side of us that are, like you said, millennials that wanted to demand, I want to know where my food's coming from. I want to know what's in it. So you have that. And then you have the other side who I don't give a shit on mindlessly eating while my phone, my face is in my Instagram the entire time. Totally. Totally. And my book that I'm working on, it's called The Real Edition. It's coming out early 2019. I totally addressed that. While we're eating real, let's have real conversations. Let's have our family around us. I can't tell you guys the conversations I have with my teenager, just wait till you have a teenager. I got one coming. You know what I'm saying? If you don't want your teenager to stray or to not know what's going on with them, get them to sit with you at the dinner table. It's amazing what they'll tell you. And I even let her bring her boyfriend over. I'm like, hey, come have a seat at my table. Let's talk, you know? Or you give them a ride. This is one of the best things you could ever do is take your kids with their friends somewhere. That's like a 20, 30 minute drive. Totally. They come, they totally for whatever reason they think you can't hear them. And they're in the back of the car and you just drive and you just hear everything that they talk about. It's so funny. So are you the sole priority of this company or do you have partners? We are currently in transition on a partner. We're bringing a new partner in actually. And the goal is really to grow our B2B distribution so that we are being used by every processor that's processing fresh food, that we are also working with manufacturers that are looking for clean label preservatives. We have a clean label preservative that extends shelf life, that inhibits the growth of yeast and mold. And you know, my goal is to make sure eat cleaners on every countertop, every sink. You know, if you're, think about this. Remember when hand sanitizers got really crazy? You know, H1N1, everybody was like sanitizing every, like slathering their body with Purell. I don't think it has to be like that. But I do think that we need to mitigate risk. You know, so I don't want people to come away from this thinking, oh my God, she's told us like not to eat anything. No, just the opposite. I'm just saying eat as close to his nature intended and take care of mitigating your risk so you don't get sick. If anybody's ever gotten sick, I got sicker than a dog once eating a salad and I wanted to die. I mean, I have never felt so horrible as that moment where you throw up more than you think you're humanly capable of throwing up. I can only imagine these children that eat something that's contaminated and get hospitalized. What does that put your family through? Oh, I got, I did it in Thailand. I was in Thailand and I had, I don't know what I ate, but it was something and I had a fever of 104, almost 105, which for an adult is super high. Oh, I was seeing things. It was, it was crazy. And they had to, I had to pay for a doctor to come to my hotel room to give me an IV and it took me like three days just to get better. Do you know I had a similar experience? Did you really? I'm not even kidding you. And it was on my honeymoon. I figured that was like the precursor to what the wedding was to be like. Yeah, it wasn't meant to be, but I was- I should have been your side right there. It was, dude, it was. It was like two and a half weeks of pure hell, but- In Thailand too? In Thailand too. Oh my God. Yep. That's crazy. Beautiful country, by the way. Yeah, it was great. It just sucked. It was great. Not excellent. So you're, I mean, you're, you seem very driven. Obviously you're very driven, motivated person. Where's that come from? Survival. Passion. Were you always like this? Family. Were you like that when you were a kid too? Totally. Really? But it was misguided. I know I look like the picture of sweet, nice, but I was a pain in my parents' ass. Like I was a total rebel, always. Like, cause when your mind works all the time and you can't stop it, you find yourself in a lot of trouble. And my judgment factor was not great when I was a teenager. I always tell my dad, but I came out okay, right? He's like, huh, huh, huh. Yeah. How old were you when you immigrated? Here. I was young. I was two, but we went back every year and spent the full summer there. So were you, were your parents like, oh my God, we moved to America. Now we have a rebel kid who wants to. I'm sure. I'm sure they felt that way, but I think I was, you know, not to digress, but being the child of an immigrant family, it's an interesting place to be. You know, you're trying to fit in. You're trying to be cool like all the other kids and your parents have an accent and they do things different, you know? And my mom screaming at my dad and my friends are like, what's going on with your parents? I'm like, he's just asking if dinner's ready. Like it's not a big deal. Same experience here. Yeah, all the crazy customs that you try and get used to. And they were, you know, trying to do the best that they could. And I don't fault them for that, but at the same time, I was trying to figure it out. But I, you know, for me, this mission about getting people to eat better, it's because it came from a place where I had an eating disorder for over a decade. And I was really misguided about what I should do. And I was trying to control something in my life that, you know, a behavior that was not about the food, but it was the only way I knew how to control it. And I got, I really skewed the way I looked at food. I got emaciated. I was losing hair in clumps. I was hospitalized. I mean, it was bad. And, but when I figured out how to eat in a balanced way and get my strength back, I became an athlete. I was racing bikes, you know, running, playing competitive soccer. Everything changed. My self-esteem changed. The way I managed stress changed. My relationships with people changed, you know? Ain't nobody like a hangry person. And if you are not, we don't realize the importance of food, you know, in our well-being when we're young. But then something bites you like that. And you just realize like, my life is too short to feel like this. So when I got it together, I just felt an onus to be able to pay it forward to people, to help people come to terms with maybe a not so great relationship with food. And unfortunately, I think a lot of the restrictive diets that we're seeing are coming from a place of actually having an eating disorder. 100%. Absolutely. You know? And so I think it's just really important where we heed caution. Our girls, especially guys too, my daughter's age are on chronic diets. 16 years old and they're just like, oh no, I don't eat that. I'm this, I'm that. And I'm like, babe, put some, you need to eat. Like don't be like this, you're gonna kill your metabolism. So if one person can take this message and say, I get it, you know, I understand that food is my life force. It's what gives me the ability to do what God created me to do on this planet. And it's not about restriction necessarily. I, there's a section of my book where I talk about the 90-10 rule. I think there is something to be able to say you can enjoy some of the things you love within moderation, but not feel like you're a martyr to your food. I think there's this crazy martyrdom syndrome that we're experiencing right now. And I don't think it has to be that way. I think you should eat and enjoy, do it with the people you love, and do it often. Cool, very cool. I can't wait to try your product. We have yet to try it out. Yeah, I know, I'm excited. I want to get excited to have you down here. We hit it off right away when we all met, and we love the message that you're giving right now too, which is great. There's not enough people like yourself that's putting out a message like those. Excellent, thanks for coming by. Thank you guys. Excellent, so check it out. Go to YouTube, Mind Pump TV. We have new fitness videos up there almost every single day. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. 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