 And for those of you joining us from around the world, welcome to another episode of the non-profit show. We are delighted to have you join us today here on a Friday. And I always love when Tony Bell gets to come on. I got to give you a little hint. I don't control the booking schedule. That's something that Jared does. But oftentimes when I see your name on, I'll kick her off and put myself on. So you found me out. It's an honor. I sound totally redundant every time we get together, but it's because it's the truth and it's the way I always feel. I'm always honored to be here with you or with Jared or with the two of you combined. That's always pretty powerful and fun. But it is, it's always an honor to be here. I love the conversation. Really do. I do too. Well, we again, if you don't know who Tony Bell is, he's a senior director of the Relationship Center, Fundraising Academy at National University. He's an expert in the field of leadership within the nonprofit sector, cause selling. You've been an executive director, a fundraiser now in the higher educational field. So I always love your perspective because I feel like you've been there at all levels and can really speak to what's going on. Now ask and answer is not specifically tied to fundraising. We have a heck of a lot of questions that come in fundraising, but we have questions that come in from HR to accounting to board development. And so when you're in the hot seat with us, you never know what you're going to get. Hey, thanks so much to our participating sponsors, many who have been with us from the get go, including Blumerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, Be Generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and Nonprofit Nerd. These are the folks that join us day in and day out. More than 600 episodes that are now produced and found on our archive, which includes Roku, YouTube TV, excuse me, YouTube, YouTube TV, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV and Vimeo. And as Jared always likes to say, but wait, there's more. We now have all of our current episodes on podcast. Those files are turned into a podcast. And again, each one of our episodes is uploaded within the day, three to four hours. And you can access that archive or share it with somebody who you think might be able to be helped with it. Okay, now you know how I get super excited when there's a name with help. Because that's always like the juicy stuff, right? And I'll, I'll fess up. Sometimes I elect to take somebody's name off because I feel like, Oh, if they're coming from a smart, a small community, it might, somebody might know who they are. And so, but anyway, Portland, Oregon, can you address the issue of a new CEO bringing with them their portfolio of donors? We have a potential new hire, while they might not be the best fit, seems to come with a large and impressive connection to major funder and donors from Portland, Oregon. You know, I think this has got to be a question or a situation that's, that's, that a lot of nonprofits deal with. You know, I think so, yeah, I don't think that this scenario is unique to Portland or unique to Oregon at all. And it's very interesting, I think in today's, particularly as I was talking earlier about this landscape that we're working and living in right now, I think this is a very interesting question, particularly when you look at what's going on in terms of employment and the opportunities out there, and how someone may use this to leverage themselves, not only as a top candidate, but may use this to leverage their, their price points for their, their salary. So I think the questions, you know, again, this has been happening for decades, it's not new. But I think it's a particularly interesting question, given the employment landscape, again, regardless of what market you're serving or supporting. So a couple of things that, that I think about this, I think about one of the early things that I learned in board, board source training, and I often refer to board source, you know, just a tremendous resource for professional development. But there's, there's a phrase that was, was said during that workshop that people give to people that support great causes. And of course, that phrase supports cost selling and the whole relationship driven, you know, concept and direction of, of cost selling. So the CEO may in fact have a portfolio of people that support people, right, that support great causes. But I would be hesitant in terms of my expectations of that portfolio. Because even though people give to people, when people give, they still have to feel passionate about the cause that their investment is supporting. They still have to feel good about the ethics of the organization, right? There, there was still a lot of things a donor has to feel good about, you know, with, with a nonprofit organization before they're willing to, to make, you know, to make an investment. So it's, it's an interesting question. I think it's great if someone says they have a portfolio, you know, if they have a hundred folks in that portfolio, you know, maybe five will support the call, you know, maybe five will. I'm just throwing that out. Maybe none of them will. There is no guarantee that anyone in that portfolio is going to commit to investing in the new organization and investing in that mission. You know, along the lines, you, you said something that really resonated with me, and that is, I can see a board sitting around a table saying, holy moly, this is going to solve all our problems, get them in and they're going to be checks. And the, yeah, but the reality is, you know, the ROR, return on relationship, this could take a long time. It's not just a guarantee that, you know, they start making phone calls and bringing in the checks. I mean, so that's another aspect of this is time served. It's going to have to be factored into this. Right. And also, you know, be reminded, we're not hiring an ATM. That's great. Oh my God. Quote of the day, we are not hiring an ATM. I love that, Tony. So there, there are many other attributes and, and, and considerations when you're hiring someone at a C-suite level. Right. Very, very interesting. Well, name withheld in Portland. I hope this gives you some perspective because, wow, to quote Tony Bell, we're not hiring an ATM. That's awesome. We need to all be saying that. I mean, because that's probably the genesis and the attitude behind that question. Okay. Chantal from Baltimore, Maryland writes in, are you in favor of having age limits on board members? For example, a board member must be no younger than 30 years old and no older than 65 years old. We are reviewing bylaws and need to address this. This was a very interesting question. So, and I, you know, again, different markets, different personalities on board, all kinds of conversations, right? I, for me, I am not in favor of anything that is going to minimize a variety of voices and experiences at the table for your nonprofit organization. So let me just start there. That, that in my initial reading of this, of this question, you know, looking at it here as you're reading it, my initial response was, well, wow, that doesn't support diversity, equity and inclusion. It certainly doesn't support inclusion. If you're going to say, you know, folks of a certain age can not serve on our, you know, on our board, you know, I would say at a minimum, you know, 18 years of age, right? That's, you know, that's, you know, that's when you're legal. So at a minimum for 18, I don't know the value of putting a maximum. I just really don't know. Now, there may be something unique in the mission. There may be something unique in the community being served where that might be a problem and, you know, have to be the stimulus for this kind of conversation. But basically, you know, again, going back to my original statement, I typically am not in favor of or support anything that minimizes the level of participation that could be had, and that would minimize the voices and representation. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, reading this question, I'm thinking about one of my earliest board trustee experiences. We had a trustee in our board who was 91, and she was one of the sharpest voices in the room. She was incredibly wealthy. So she funded a lot of things in times of duress. And so, you know, I would never want to think of her as an ATM. But when I reflect upon this, I think she probably had that. But one of the aspects of what she brought to our board was phenomenal historical context. And so, that was always something that we drew upon. And that landscape that she provided, which was national, was invaluable. So my sense of it, Chantal, would be, and I don't know, Tony, this is just like off the cuff, wackadoo idea. But most term limits would say, they're three years, and you vote every three years, maybe after the age of 65 or 70, you, you pull that back to two years or something like that. So that if you feel there's an incapacitation issue, and that that board member is not being able to be a fiduciary, maybe because of their abilities, as it relates to aging, maybe put that in. I don't know. I work with a lot of financial institutions. In fact, I'm doing a big training for the Credit Union Executive Society next week. And this is a question, you know, that they bring up with their older, you know, trustees, and you read about this in the Wall Street Journal all the time about, you know, these, these national boards of for-profit companies and seeing how their board members are aging and what do you do. It's kind of an interesting concept, but the way you phrased it about putting limits on something, yeah, you know. Yeah, and I was really glad, Julie, I was going to bring it up if you didn't, but that's why we have term limits. So if there's some concern, I mean, there's, I mean, again, we're, they're not getting seated on the Supreme Court. This is not a lifetime service to the organization. So, you know, so again, your bylaws, you know, should as a best practice have term limits, but then as a best practice, you need to exercise those term limits and have sometimes those tough conversations. And along those lines, the tough conversations, courageous conversations. Courageous. Thank you. Wouldn't you, wouldn't you agree that this is the board chair responsibility? So the board chair, if they see a board member and I don't care what age, struggling, not being able to meet expectations, that's when you have to step up and say, privately, right? Privately. Hey, I noticed, you know, some concerns. Is there something that we can do to help you? Is this a time when maybe, you know, you need to reflect upon leaving the board or what that might look or changing your role within our leadership? And that to me, Tony, and I don't know what you think about that, but this is a board chair, not a CEO, not a CEO. 100%. 100%. Yeah, this is the responsibility of the board chair, 100%. Yeah, which is not easy. It's not easy. No, it's not. I mean, no, it's not. That's why a lot of people don't immediately sign up or raise their hand. And it's, well, just real quickly, Julie, because I have the honor of doing board training for a local nonprofit this past weekend. And, you know, one of the things that I always talk about in board training is that, you know, the realization that, you know, board members are volunteers. Yes. Right. But volunteers with the highest level of accountability to the organization. So we talked a lot about that and, you know, and the needs of boards. But, you know, it's good to recognize, right? It could be a challenging role. Yeah. Oh my God. And they're volunteering their time to do it. Yeah. And it's a fiduciary role too. Oh, sure. Throw that in. Not that we're trying to scare anyone, but yeah. It is getting close to Halloween. Okay. Joshua from Salt Lake City writes in, I recently had a donor who I am new to. Tell me that he could tell, oh, this is interesting. I was trained in selling. The way he said it was not so kind. It made me feel uncomfortable and I did not have a response. Yes, I'm trained, but I see it as a good thing. Can you give me some advice? You know what? This happened to me years ago. And I was probably my 30s. I was asking for a million dollar gift just as a community volunteer. And the guy said to me, it was a man, older man, of course, said to me, well, I can tell you must have sold cars in your past. And first of all, I was like, well, he was demeaning the car sales person, you know. Sure. Let's start there. Which I was like, wow, that's a knock to anybody who's ever sold a car, which I didn't appreciate. But you know, Joshua, I was so taken aback, I didn't have a response. And so it's tough. What do you say about this? No, I really appreciate the question from Joshua, you know, and I empathize because that's a really awkward situation to be in. Particularly, you know, Joshua's let us know that, you know, a donor that he's new to. So really, really uncomfortable, right? So I think there are a couple of different things that come to mind right away. One is to own up to and say, yes, I am trained. You know, our organization takes my work very seriously. And, you know, just again, not in a defensive way, but really uplifting the fact that yes, yes, I am trained. It's important for us to be trained to be the best we can be to ensure that our communities are receiving, you know, the services that they so desperately need, right? So there are ways, I think, to celebrate, yes, I am trained. And I'm proud of that. I was just gonna say, and I'm proud of that. And I'm proud of that. Yeah. And here's why my training is important. Right? So I mean, again, there's a lot of nuance involved. And even this question, you know, we work there and, you know, there's, again, I don't want to, I'm just offering some recommendations here, not, you know, not having sat there. So I would, you know, I would do that. I would, you know, proudly own up to, yes, I have been trained. This may also be an opportunity, Julia, for something that you and I talked about earlier around the importance of taking what we learn in professional development and learning how to utilize that in our own voice, in our own style, how to take our professional development and show up as our authentic self. Because otherwise, we have a bunch of folks, you know, trade and cause selling, that all are walking around sounding like robots just reciting, you know, the same exact thing that they read in the textbook or that, you know, they learned in a cohort or on a, you know, on a webinar. So maybe Joshua might want you again, this may not have been the scenario, but for others it might be, again, to think about when you are activating what you have learned in your training, how much of you is coming through in that or how much of it is you just kind of projecting canned phrases that you learned or something. So, you know, there may be something to that for Joshua to consider. You know, so for those of you who weren't with us in the Green Room chatter, Fundraising Academy just sent me one of their textbooks. And the textbook is, this is an older version, the textbook is being redone and rebranded and yada, yada, yada. But, I mean, the guts of it and the information is still there. And I was telling Tony, again, Green Room chatter where we just chat about whatever, I was stunned at how many, like, extra things, oh wow, that would have helped me and I can see that or oh yeah, I kind of use that, but I don't use this. And so Tony said a really magical thing to me. He said, yeah, you know, you can't just repeat everything. You need to absorb it and then determine what fits into your style. And once he said that, I was like, yeah, okay, I can take that in and see. I want to go back now and reread this. You can tell, Tony. I've like made all these notes with my sticky notes, but because I was thinking, oh man, I missed the boat. I haven't been doing this right. So I really, I think it's an interesting thing. I would also say to Joshua, you know, there are more and more people, Tony, and I don't know if you're seeing this, that now have achieved the CFRE designation. And it's, it helps, it elevates the entire sector when we can have a professional designation that says, yeah, we do train. We do, you know, increase our abilities to perform and to be measured. And this is a profession. And so it's kind of an interesting thing. And yeah, sorry, Josh, but I hope that helps. I really do. Yeah, I hope it helps Joshua as well. I think it's going to come back. Don't you think this isn't, I mean, has somebody ever said that to you? No, actually, I don't know that I have, I have ever been confronted with that particular question that, that, you know, I went through call selling or any training and was, you know, was kind of called out and accused of being too trained. You're just too trained. You're just too trained. Oh my God, that's crazy. Okay, let's go to Shonda in Dallas, Texas. If I have a chance to get a donor to attend one of our school events, namely a play, or take them out to a nice lunch, which is better during the lunch, we can talk during the play, we can't. Also, this is a high school. So the performance is at a high school level, if you know what I mean. I think this is fascinating, because this is like taking that donor on a tour of your programming. And, you know, yeah, this is really an interesting question. Come on, Shonda, if you know what I mean, you know Dallas got talent. I don't know why you said if you know what I mean. But so, you know, so I think this is interesting. Normally, what I would say is anytime you can get a donor to, you know, particularly for those organizations that have a brick and mortar that they can show off or programming that we're, you know, they can invite someone to come in and see the programming taking place or experience the programming. I think that that's a huge win. So, you know, maybe in this scenario, Shonda does lunch and then at lunch extends the invitation to attend the play. So maybe that's, you know, something that Shonda can, you know, can consider. Again, you know, leaning into what do you know about, you know, the potential donor? Are they even going to enjoy the play? A couple of things but when some people cannot stand a musical. So are you inviting them to a musical where they have to get the whole story and song? That's not going to be a good experience for them. Where others are like, don't bring me to, you know, to kill a mockingbird. I can't listen to all of that. You know, I need something I can tap my toe to. So again, you know, understanding your, you know, your donor, you know, and no disrespect. That was just to kill a mockingbird. That was just the first thing. But you know, but you know, again, leaning into what do you know about the donor? What has your cause selling and you're building the relationship taught you about that donor? And there are they going to find the play even a good experience. Right. You know, one of the things that I did with donors for a cultural organization I was involved with, as a board member, I would bring perspective folks that we wanted to engage to rehearsals. And so that then they could see, you know, it wasn't real sexy, but most people had never been, you know, behind a stage or in a rehearsal room or standing that close to an opera singer where you can like literally feel the impact of their voice. And so I then felt like I didn't happen. This is going to sound so hateful, but I didn't feel like I had to, to apologize for a performance. Right. Like, oh, that was a snoozer. Right. I think that's brilliant. But the, then you could see how hard it is and how they get, they get stopped. No, do that again. No, stop. Do that again. I mean, it was, it was a very interesting, and it was interesting thing for me too. But so the rehearsal part and then you're, you can do both. Maybe you can go to lunch and you can do it. I, you know what, I love the idea of the rehearsal more, more so than seeing the actual presentation, because what you see then is the dynamic between, you know, teacher and student, the dynamic between student and students. And I think depending on the mission of the program or the organization, yeah, that, that would be really impactful for a donor. Again, even more so than the final product. Yeah. You know, I think that was brilliant, Julie. I love that. Well, I did that with, also with Ballet Arizona and, and brought some people in. And when, you know, you watch ballet and you're like, oh, that's so lovely. And then when you see how brutal it is, you know, a close, I mean, and what the toll is on their bodies and how they're just like pouring sweat, all the things that you would never see sitting in the theater, then that was, to me, that was always magical. We could always get these checks because people would be like, I had no idea how hard this was. It's like, yeah, yeah. Dancers are athletes. Dancers are athletes. Exactly. That's exactly what I was going to say. Yeah. And it's dangerous. It's dangerous. I mean, when you see a lift from the auditorium, you're like, oh, how lovely. You see the lift. You're like, holy crap, don't drop her. You know what I mean? It was a really interesting thing. I always loved doing that. I always did. Well, I think too. And the perception that, you know, all dancers are light as a feather, right? So it's easy to just, yeah, but no dancers are, you know, it's muscle there and muscle has weight. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's, one of the things we did a couple of times, which was interesting for a cultural organization is that we actually had meetings or dinners on the stage because most people that supported these organizations, they'd never been on a stage. They'd never been in the wings. They never saw how dark it was or how all the things you can trip over or, you know, the things coming around. And so we found that when we could get people engaged in that piece of it, they were much more receptive to joining with us. Just like if you take somebody to an after school program and you see what the kids look like after coming in after, you know, off the bus from a long day at school and what they need and how hungry they are. And it changes your perception of after school programming. So it could kind of just be a different type of engagement. But, well, Tony, great questions. Yeah, really good questions. Always make sure you send us your questions. You can call us. You can email us. You can use social media. You know, we're going out more and more and I'm having people stop me at events and say, Julia, will you pose this question, which is kind of fun too. So yeah, get us your questions and let us know what's on your mind. A real quick interesting thing that we're going to be doing next week is a non-profit power week with your part-time controller. And so if you've got questions about the changing nature of financial leadership within your organization, send them our way. Now, we're not going to ask you or we're not going to answer questions about, you know, what should I put online form, you know, like to form 13892Z. We're not going to be able to do that. But if you have some questions about leadership in that changing part of the non-profit world, we'd love to discuss those. Again, Tony Bale, oh my God, Senior Director Relationship Center, Fundraising Academy at National University. You are a national treasure, my friend. You are too kind. Thank you so much. I can't believe how quickly the time goes, Julia. I know it really does. I have to say, even Jarrett and I, after now almost three years of this, even we get shocked, Tony. I mean, we in our studios, we both have very big clocks because we're always like, what? Time's up. Anyway, you know, National University has a really interesting thing going on, my learning portal. You can go on there and see all the different things that they have going on. And let me tell you, most of this is free. So it is remarkable access to great thought leaders about fundraising in our country, really around the world, but especially in our country and how socially we can do things with our communities. And it's just been a marvelous, marvelous thing to see you all grow and to work with us. So check out Fundraising Academy. And the way you get to them is fundraising-academy.org. They are under the umbrella of National University. And then from there, you can gain free access to so much information. And so we want to make sure that everybody can understand how to get more of this amazing content that we just love and adore. We want to make sure to thank all of our presenting sponsors, Blumerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, Be Generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Stepping Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and Nonprofit Nerd. These are the folks that allow us to come to you day in and day out. It's just been remarkable and continues to be so. And I just love and have so much respect for these other organizations that step up and sponsor opportunities like this for folks to get additional professional learning and professional development. Their commitment to professional development in the non-profit space is definitely something to be celebrated. Thank you. That's a great way to say it. We were talking to the folks. We had a guest from Blumerang on yesterday. And one of the things I was saying to him was I was like, you know, you all are so brilliant at sharing knowledge. A lot of organizations, especially data-based and data-facing organizations, they don't want to share. They want to keep their secrets, you know. And they're very transparent and want to build the sector. And so most all of our sponsors and the folks that we work with have that same spirit. And so that's a cool thing. Thank you for mentioning that. Hey, as we end every episode and especially going into the weekend, we want to remind everyone to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here next week. Have a great weekend, my friend. You as well. Thank you.