 Welcome everybody back here to Segal Talk and the great news is it's the beginning of the Prelude Festival, the very first conversation which we are having here in the Prelude 23 Festival, a festival dedicated to work in progress, celebrating the work of New York Theatre artists and ensembles, places that host artists and it's a great honor for us to be back after three years of Prelude online. It is a larger one. We are celebrating our 20th anniversary. We have over 60 presentations with over 120 artists and 17 locations outside the Segal Center. So it's a big event for us in our history. Also, I don't think we did anything larger than that here in New York. It's a great work and we also want to give out 14 awards, Prelude awards for people who we feel made a great contribution to experimental theater, theater at the forefront of performance and the art. And today we have two great workers in the field of contemporary theater in New York City and in America, in the Americas with us. Our airwaves are here on the Nappy land so we want to acknowledge that they might also be out there in PS 21 where we have Elena with us and Steve from the civilians. First of all, how are you both Elena, where are you and and how is life up in Chatham. Hi Frank. Hi everybody. Hello Steve. I am speaking from New York Hudson Valley. And it's a gorgeous full day leaves already began to change two weeks ago. It's a sunny weather and just a good mood all around. Fantastic and you are in in your farmhouse where you live. I'm in a barn outside of my outside of a barn that I'm renting in the Hudson Valley where I spent half of the time and full time during the season, the heavy season at PS 21 is normally during the summer may through middle of October. And that's where I am and I am very happy to see you. Thank you Elena. We come back shortly to a PS 21 who you are and what it's all about. So hi Steve, where are you. I am in the upper west side where I live in New York City and though I also live part of the time in the Hudson Valley not too far away from where Elena is right now. But now yeah here I'm here in the city in the midst of rehearsing a show which means I'm in New York, full time. No, no trips upstate, but yeah very happy to be here and thanks for thanks for including us in the program. Why we both have with us is because PS 21 is hosting a work in progress. So they will show workshops up at PS 21 we will talk with Steve about it but Steve for all of those who don't know and we are with the civilians. Tell us a little bit about the company the idea and your your vision for theater. Sure. So the civilians were at a New York based theater company. We've been around since 2001. So, I guess that makes us 22. Very exciting. We are a company that is dedicated to creating new work from creative inquiries into real life. And that can mean any number of different things. We don't describe the work that we do as documentary because I think it's it's actually almost always some combination of an artistic creative process with a research documentary side so it's so it's, it's both what we do. We describe as investigative theater. So for me that means that the center of the work, whatever it is, is some kind of inquiry. And, you know, usually the work requires that the artists do something to go out and connect with other people other other other subject matters that are, you know, that are that are potential to make theater out of them. And when we get to it, I will talk about how our project sex variance falls into this mission of investigative theater. Because it's a more historical piece but happy to talk about that. I should, I should say that we are, you know, I guess, best described as like an independent theater company you know we are a community of artists and a staff that, you know, manages our organizations but we don't, we don't have a theater, we don't program a season, we're primarily generative artists so we, we are involved in making the work. And sometimes we produce it ourselves sometimes we produce it in collaboration with arts presenters and a kind of touring setup. And sometimes we partner with regional theaters, or off Broadway theaters to actually produce the work so we're, we're curious. And that makes it being in some senses are relatively, you know, we have we're we're a small staff and a nimble operation, but our, you know, our shows have been, you know, all over the US, Europe at some of the, you know, the leading, the leading theaters in the in the English speaking world so we're small but we get around. Yeah, really in such interesting work, work that is somehow democratic in its course explores reality real life the connections neighborhoods and, and it's not a commercially based art you know which is about a successful show but it's really an engagement of artists with the art form and investigation on human life and the meaning of life. And, and it's also done by an artist for for the love of the work and the belief that theater has a place in society that is contributes to change change we want to see that is part of a progressive justice and it mirrors I think important movements in our society. Next to great artists and companies of course we do need places who present the work. And actually, there are many places that do present work in New York, which complications are more or some less, but there are also places that develop work places that had they hold and create and house residencies, as we say, next to presenting. And when it comes to residencies, it's becomes more complicated it doesn't really generate money it really does not have a show at the end you can pay for, but doing it is the essential work it's like studio time for a painter it's a time to compose for a musician before, you know, preparing for a rehearsal and one of the places I think that are great examples of this we have with us here in the prelude festival we have Robert Wilson's panel center we have the mercury store in Brooklyn and and many others and one of the great ones I think is PS 21, and it comes a little bit out of the mastermind of Elena who is with us. So Elena, tell us a little bit who are you, and what is PS 21. Steve thanks both, and Frank thanks for the generous introduction and for inviting us. PS 21 is a relatively new venue. It's a state of the art incredible theater on 100 acres of unspoiled meadows and so grounds in Chatham, which is a small town about 15 minutes east of Hudson. So it's within relatively easy reach from New York City because many of the artists that come to work with us are still based in either Brooklyn or Manhattan. Mostly who PS 21 works with besides a few international residences. We host short and long term residences, we sponsor those residences. We, we don't have funding the way many other institutions that also have residences part of the mission we are still trying to develop this kind of robust infrastructure that allows us to support artists. PS 21 started with a new building in 2018 and I am the first executive and artistic director I joined PS 21 and 2019 and pretty much from zero we developed not only audiences but the donor base and of course and a stream of programming with very much innovative multidisciplinary work. And that's the kind of work that we also are incredibly interested in fostering in encouraging we have both the pavilion theater the black box, the incredible dance barn with the sprung floor. Two artists residents houses on site and so anybody who is here can have access 24 seven to our spaces. Stay with us on our rambling grounds that's a 11 bedroom guest house and win one building and then a small cottage was two apartments in in another building. And of course, artists are very much attracted by the flexibility of space experiment that really encourages this openness and experimentation with the pretty unique setup that we have technologically including something like state of the art LED lighting sophisticated sound system. And this incredible comfort to be in this rural but also amazing cosmopolitan area where there are a lot of collaborators artists visual artists sound designers. Well, a lot of people live here just like what Steve mentioned he he also now has a place in clover I can many many artists also now move to this area. We never stopped residencies or programming even during the pandemic and 2020 in fact we encouraged artists to join us and we ended up in August of 2020 inviting along will sound with a residency and workshopping of new music pieces by the Sean sorry, and Anna Ismael in November 2020 we hosted for a week a recording residency with a wonderful sandbox percussion they recorded and the incredible work of seven pillars by Andy OK, a key hoe. And then later on we moved on to host larger companies and residencies including Camille a brown and dancers for instance. And just if we speak post pandemic world. The residences are really year round, you know Steve and the civilians are coming to be with us this December in a few weeks but the residences are not limited just off season, but also during the summer. Last summer we had several residences one of them a lab, a week long lab with Susie Ibarra and many guest artists that she invited. She workshopped for the ensemble version of the wonderful piece for meditations on impermanence in PS 21 is very much a lab, not only with different theater spaces but also of course the grounds and the landscape and so quite a lot of work that we invite to our grounds also has quite a bit to do with its relation to the landscape and the kind of work, the kind of ideas that artists develop. So that's very much the mission of PS 21 it connects us to the ever evolving national and international landscape and the civilians, especially the, you know, they occupy a particularly important place, I think in American independence theater. It's not the first project in theater per se that we are developing to other residences again during the pandemic included director Pascal Rambeer staging the art of theater, and with my own hand with actors Jim Fletcher and Ishmael Conner. And so that's probably one of the more wonderful things that we look forward to because there is always an exchange with artists. They're not secluded in only also in the although we understand and respect the time and focus that is required but very much every single residency that we have is always connected to our work with communities, and especially under the initiative called Residences at PS 21 pathways to ourselves to each other to our bodies our landscape. So that's pretty much in a nutshell where we are with residences at PS 21. And again, it's a, it's a particularly challenging time in the United States we funding for residences and yet just the upkeep of this incredible property and the state of the art theater and to keep the lights on is close to $100,000 a year and I apologize at time. In this wonderful conversation also go and mention the numbers but that's the that's the reality. And our team is just for full time. That's on our team for full time members including myself and we run a season of performance from May through October plus residency so it's quite a lot of work. And happy to to be collaborating with Steve, especially amazing it's really an extraordinary place the programming money some people say it's the most interesting global programming on the east coast of the of North America and it's really worth to check out the upcoming program also but as Steve independent now from PS 21 what does a residency mean to you a work in progress showing Well, I think I've been a residency can mean can mean many things. Most residences are for a single artist so I certainly benefited from doing a number of residences places like McDowell, etc to go away and concentrate and and work on a script. What's more challenging to find is a place where you can actually go with your collaborators and develop a show that is a work in process where you don't, you don't necessarily, you know, have a you don't necessarily come in with like a finished script but you have a lot of ideas and maybe very rough draft and, you know, for the, for the civilians were, you know, we're a very collaborative company, you know, every, every project we've done involves, you know, some requires really like some kind of creative workshop time in order for the show to come into into being and, you know, and I think that's it's very challenging to find those opportunities. We've, you know, we've certainly done a lot of developmental workshops at off Broadway theaters and regional theaters. We've done some with presenters, like, like ps 21. And, you know, we also, you know, typically we do not have money in our budget, typically to support a residency, but sometimes we can we find funding or a grant comes through. There's this really, really wonderful new program that nisco the New York State Council for the Arts launched, I think we are recipients for its first year, and the grant supports residency time to develop new work outside of New York City, with the one requirement being that the artists have some kind of engagement with the local community so I think it's, you know, a program that is, that is trying to connect the artistic culture of New York City to the rest of the state and all of all of the many, many other people that live in in other parts of New York State so that's, that's really the, the reason we are able to do these, these weeks with with Elena and it's Yeah, having, I guess it kind of goes without saying but having, having money to support what you're doing, you know, is is essential and is, you know, and is a game changer is for you know really makes the difference of, you know, whether show is going to actually happen, you know, or, or it's just an, it's just an idea waiting, waiting for a home. So, so we're very glad that we're on the path of making a show that will actually happen. And in fact, Steve, it's, it's at the core of creation, you know, we need in this country and network of residences of creation places to foster the new to foster artistic life and to have the environment where companies like yours don't have to scramble, you know, every year figuring out where is the grant is going to come from. What grant are we applying can we apply for the same grant if we were recipients last year I'm almost surmising that who knows whether you will receive it next year, but this kind of funding system and support should be foundational. Definitely. It's a creative life. Steve, when is a residency a good residency. Well, I mean, most, most of them see if I have done, and we have done many have have all been good residencies I think, you know, first and foremost, is there, is there time and space and and freedom to go into the studio. Without, without any expectations or pressure of we're going to deliver a certain kind of product by the end of these two weeks even because sometimes you can have a work in progress, showing at the end of a residency time. And, yeah, I would say, in many cases, especially working with a producing theater that there's, there's a couple things in play there's the like, yeah, here's your time to figure out your show experiment, work with actors. It's a very open ended, but at the end of the residency, we are going to look at it and decide whether we're going to keep going, whether we're going to keep supporting your show, or, or not. So, yes, you don't we've done many residencies where there's that added pressure of, you know, are we going to get produced. Are they not interested in what we're doing and getting cut off. So, you know, the programs that I find really most most helpful or, and most most artistically satisfying really are the ones where there, there isn't that, you know, will we do your show or not question at the very end. Certainly PS 21 is that type of program. The Sundance Theater Lab was that kind of program and we were in residence with them. Many times and I think the loss, the loss of that is a is a serious blow to the American Theater. So much so much work came out of the many different programs that Sundance supported. And I guess the last thing I would say is, I, I believe in dramaturgs. So I've always worked closely with with dramaturgs and sometimes there's the capacity to bring one for your workshop and sometimes not. Some programs like Sundance had its, its own dramaturgical staff so you were, you were given, you know, one of the best dramaturgs in the country, to be your partner for that one week or that two weeks, or whatever is and I think it's so beneficial for theater to have somebody in the room that knows what you're trying to do and tells you honestly, every day, you're going in the right direction, or you've taken a wrong turn, and I don't know, I don't know where you're going. You maybe you shouldn't consider that. And they, they, yeah, really do do so much to bring new works life. Yeah, it's, it is so, it is so foundational. There is the biologists say sperm's ideas are cheap but nests, eggs, building something that's expensive and complicated and dangerous. Why don't you do what everybody else does you know if you have some money you have a show you book a show you pay artists and you go them in on. Why do you do residencies. In our case it's very much fostering the kind of landscape which we believe is essential for maintaining artistic life. It's also very much a focus on the kind of work that is outside of the, you know, commercial realm and mainstream and recognize names because we think that this ecosystem of small ensembles, small independent theater groups like the arts, that is what creates this ecology of the healthy landscape and vibrant artistic life. And the third is our very much focus on innovation and multi disciplinarity of the kind of artists that work. specific boundaries in their respective discipline that combine different disciplines that's the kind of work we are very much interested in in in music we don't separate disciplines in fact I only do it, even with our normal season when we have this the busy summer season we I don't even like to write, oh this is dance this is music because the kind of project that we bring and really make an effort to bring and a lot of international work, you know, a good example of it is the work let down by just the young that is coming to us. It's in its North American, a premiere of the English version of let down was Julie Shanahan and Adele and L Anima from France, also the kind of project that that reflects that completely lack of demarcation between performance or performance art and visual art, combining in the most incredible unusual way. You know, in the case of let down the disciplines that I have not ever seen combined before. That was the work that we ended our summer season with. So that that is very much the focus on the mindset. But we really think that support of the artist that's something that is so powerfully lacking. A group of beloved artists and everybody starts with a commissioning the work, but there are so many other important ideas, and we think that that that fostering the work of many small ensembles. Probably a very difficult and challenging pattern, but essential one, we don't tie the residency as Steve said to the to the presentation and I think that that kind of free willing landscape of work is the most nurturing and the most productive for us. And you don't know what the play might be whether you will ever produce it or not just for artists as a as a as a research and some of them you say we give you the residency and you will then definitely perform. Well, you know, some some yes and I think eventually, besides what Steve brought up by the role of the drama to work I think that also the role of the producer and in the ideal world we would have wide network of creation places for creation, we would have those networks and places of creation that come with it with artists support, including tech support including salaries and travel but also including, of course the opportunity to then disseminate the work. The role of the drama to plus the role of the producer, who would also help this, this work, not to be seen or shown once or twice. In the case of some of the residences we just wanted to give a kind of enabling a trial for somebody very young like Katiana wrangle the Brazilian theater artist she was with us, working on blasted. Yes, we don't put any conditions and when we had a work in process showing some of the people absolutely hated it and and wrote us letters how much they hate it to the work. But you know we don't really audience members wrote you yeah. As an artistic director do you interfere you say this is good that is not I like that do you are you also geometrically do you have some connection, or do you step back and don't look at all. Well, first of all I'm always interested in what our artists do, and as much as possible we, because we are very much connected to the international landscape. The first 21 brings huge number of international projects every year. And as much as we can, our involvement is is pretty much giving any connections. We can any connections in the field connections with our presenting partners with other presenters, not just in the United States but internationally, and anything we can help, but also the kind of support. There are so many fantastic theater, you know lighting designers sound designers. All the people that that create work, and those who are known to us so if somebody is looking for a collaborator, a producer we normally recommend and share our resources as much as possible in this way. Of course, we do have discussions with artists about their own work, but to say that we have some kind of an imprint, or we, we drive it in any way that is, that's not really the case. Steve, now let's come to what this talk is all about. You will come with the help of Niska of that great grant I think to, you know, encourage also community work which you have always done without grants actually I would like to point that out. So one of the early companies that actively work with non actors community members. Now it's often, you know, people tailor their work according to direct to two grants, you're going to come to research sex variance 1941 based on Dr. George Henry's interviews. And tell us a little bit about this project. Why is that interesting to you what are you going to do it. Sure, sure. So, you know, this, this is an idea that let me do the math, I can't sometime in the 1990s, when I was living in London, I found a copy of sex variance in a used bookstore. It's this great big medical book that contained within it 80 case studies of what they considered variance and clarify the using the term sex to mean gender. What they considered to be gender variations which included homosexual men bisexual men homosexual women. And then a third category that they called narcissists, which contain a lot of different term, colorful, colorful individuals and the, you know, the book the book just captivated me and, you know, there, there is there's as a gay person, you know, it's very very hard to have any sense of our, our history, because it's mostly invisible. And it's not documented. And particularly when it comes to everyday life. You know, sexuality relationships. You know, so much of so much of that content was just was never was never documented, or. Yeah, yeah, so start starting there. You know, as soon as I read it I thought this somehow needs to be a theater piece. And then I just kind of kept it in my back pocket for, you know, another 1520 years. And then it's the first iteration of the project we did at Joe's pub. As it's a one night event and I asked a bunch of songwriters to pick a pick a case study and make, make music from it. I edited many of them down to monologues. And we did an evening at Joe's pub that was a big hit. And I think, I think audiences felt the same way I did about this material. And actually one thing that's very important just to say about the source material is it's it's it's very much a mixed bag, as it were. So there there are all of these, you know, first person interviews with queer people talking about all aspects of their their life, you know, which I think is just an incredible resource. And at the same time, it's all in the context of medical study. It's all in the context of, you know, what has made these people wrong. And, you know, in a 1930s context, they really they threw everything, they threw every suit of science that they could at the problem of queer people. So they're, you know, the dimensions of their heads were measured. They were many of them are photographed naked to see if there was something about the torso to leg ratio that might be causing these these variations for most all of the many of the women had their genitals drawn and measured. And those are in the back of the book, labeled where there might be, you know, abnormalities of the of the genitals the the genetic side was it was had its moments so for each case study there was a family tree, you know, and it's marked, it's marked like who is an alcoholic, who is musical turned out to be one of one of the categories, who, you know, who was divorced, etc. And, you know, and again, all that said like within the context of the 1930s, and the doctors who were behind this medical book, thought that they were doing something progressive, because they were advocating for the idea that queer people are sick and well adjusted in terms of their gender, and therefore potentially rehabilitated. And, you know, that in contrast to, you know, the, the way the most of society like treated thought of queer people as, you know, degenerates that could be arrested and punished, because, you know, in the 1930s was, it was illegal just to be queer, you didn't have to even do anything you could be, you know, having a coffee with your lesbian friend and a lesbian bookstore, you know, and technically that was, that was illegal so, you know, all to say that the people behind the study, you thought that they were doing something progressive. You know, the American writer, George Henry, you bought the book in London but it's Americans were interviewed in the 30s. Yeah, their life histories. Yeah. Yeah, all, all, all Americans. And then, you know, as we've, as I've learned more about the project and dug into it a bit deeper, the backstory of the book and the study is really quite fascinating and I think says a lot. I think it's about just sort of, you know, the, how, how queer people exist, you know, even in contemporary times because the, the origin of the whole project actually was initiated by a lesbian journalist named Jan Gay. And she had been in touch with Dr. Herstfeld and Farmer Erich Germany, who is a real, Magnus Herstfeld and from that she got, she got a copy of his sexuality questionnaire. And then she interviewed something like 200 or 300 lesbians all over Europe and in the US. And then she wanted to get it published. I think, you know, very much with the sense of, you know, here, here are some descriptions of, you know, real people, how they live, what their relationships are like. And I think Jan wanted to put that in print to then share that with the world and, and in a sense make a case for equality and liberation and, you know, whatever, whatever other positive things might have come from that book. But she quickly found out that you could not, you could not publish a book in the 1930s. That was just, she was told that she didn't have the right credentials. Like as a journalist, she could never get this thing published. The only way that she could get it out there was to do it in the context of a medical study. And Jan herself actually recruited the doctors who eventually became the committee for the study of sex variants. And many of the interviews we think were done by Jan. And another, there was a gay guy named Thomas Painter, who similarly, I think had more, more sort of a kind of contemporary or positive intention. He brought a lot of men into the study. And, and then when the study was eventually published, you know, Jan, Jan, I think gets like one or two sentences of, of mention. And Dr. Henry really presents himself as the, as the authoritative voice on, you know, what, what a person's life history means, what might have caused their, their maladjustment. You know, and essentially, it is, you know, a big study that contributed to the work called, you know, maybe the medicalization of queer lives and queer bodies. How, how will you connect it if I understand the grand is to connect to community also say how what's your idea. Well, I think when we're, when we're up in, in Chatham, I will, you know, leave it to Elena to make some introductions. And, you know, I imagine we'll, you know, meet, meet some audience members and supporters of PS 21 at, at dinner or whatever that might be and, and we will do a public sharing would we will we will share the work in progress with a small audience and then, and then have a, have a discussion but it will be really more like a work in progress presentation, as opposed to, you know, showtime. And our specific Frank our specific interest is not just the more conventional model of a work in progress showing to the general audience and because we, we don't want, I don't like that word of community, as if it's us and them, we are the community. And this initiative I mentioned in my introduction first pathways. It's very much our initiative of also working with community groups and regional organizations and since we launched this initiative in 2020 our partnerships grew to 26 and so in the resilience of this project. We are specifically thinking of adding a couple of events or conversations with our community partners in Hudson, specifically the 10th magazine it's a magazine for queer use in Hudson mostly use of color and there are a number of practitioners in Hudson that we have been working with over the years. And so there are also other. I would say a more meaningful conversations that we can develop with with smaller groups, not just the general audience which and I think this project is fascinating and, and, and our audiences should know about it, we are very excited about it but it's also about students and Steve sharing, sharing their, their work with with young people, especially. Will you also do interviews with people up there, Steve. Probably, probably not we are, we're very much kind of sticking to the source of our, of our interviews being these, these historical transcripts, I mean I will talk to people and I talk to people all the time to get to get ideas to, especially if someone has a piece of the work, I, you know, will have many, many conversations with all sorts of people that that can then, you know, help help my path on the work. You're also going to collaborate with Jessica Mitrani and at our Westfall. Tell us a little bit who are the collaborators you're bringing in. Yeah, so there's, there's a few for the first part of the residency. It'll be some of the primary collaborators. So, in addition to me, Jessica Mitrani is a Colombian artist based in New York. She works in performance, but she describes herself as a multimedia artist so she works in many media but particularly video which I think will be an important part of this show. Ada Westfall is a performer, musician and music director and we will have a number of songs in the show, written by various composers and, you know, Ada will eventually be the music director but she's involved at this, at this early age, we're really figuring out what the project is. And I've also brought on a young playwright named James Lubella who I, I gave him the job of writing, writing various scenes about all about the story of the sex variance study. So, you know, trying, trying to imagine Jan Gaye with her various, the various meetings that we know that she had, attempts that she had to try to get to get the work done. And his work is really delightful. I asked him to write every scene in a different genre of a 1930s movie. So there's, like, there's the screwball scene. There's a, you know, universal horror classic. There's the sort of, you know, fast talking, kind of like his girl Friday, Rosalind Russell type movie. And, you know, it's all still very much an experiment and I'm really sure how, how it will all work in the end but it's a, yeah, it's a very important part of the residency to just, you know, have, have that group of collaborators there to work together, but to also hang out afterwards and to talk about what we learned what we're going to do next. And then in our final week, we will be joined by, you know, some number of actors so we can, we can start reading and having some of the songs performed. And then I can, I can start figuring out how it all, how it all fits together. Amazing. Yeah, James LaBella, who actually also is in prelude with a piece of its own with us. I think the great Martha Graham said, sometimes I create movements but sometimes also movements come to me she says I create a space. I have a rehearsal and things happen. You know, and it's not planned. And it's not written out, you know, it would be horrible when if artists had to work like business people where you have to make a three year plan and then you have to stick to it. You know, this is not how artistic life works and artwork and great art on the on the opposite you don't know how it's going to look like you regroup things don't work out as you thought you make mistakes or failures. But then you redo it it changes the minute before openings. But this is also I think what we can learn from artists we should live work in that ways, institutions should work in that way and take risks and openings, but the space that we live for this rooms where encounters take place and as Michelangelo said everything is movement, you know everything is encounter. And I think this is why I feel this is so great so fundamental and so close to nature in a way sense. And I think Elena is right when she says you know the community if you say you pretend as if you're not part of it or just say nature that you're not nature. This is the I think so so great the the chaotic creation of art that mimics the nature who we are. Elena why do you think this project fits so well into your programming is very different from what you. Is it very different from what you know we present or is it in is there a red thread that goes through it. There is really not the that's not how we think whether it fits it in that box of how we imagine, because we may imagine our own space ideas in one way but ultimately you know it's a God instinct but also this is such a fascinating material that the civilians are developing. And it's what Steve said it's a, you know, you know, it's an uncharted territory in the US is so little documentation. And so as soon as I read about the project from Steve, I immediately without thinking said yes, so it wasn't even about how it relates or not relates to our work. It's more whether these ideas have to be supported and these artists have to be supported. And it's a very serious project and that's pretty much the only determinant in how we think about the resonances also in general. So you sit in this beautiful big space at the moment, and your door behind you is open is an open door. And, as you said it's not something that's be put in an existing box so it's quite fascinating place you run well how the way you do it. And people can really discover that I think jewel hopefully also pray that will contribute a little bit towards that the work of the civilians of Steve but also to the mission idea and vision of PS they call themselves the performing space of a 21st century So it's interesting to what what does he think what does the organization we should be doing what's the meaning of it how does it relates to our life and what is worth our time and energy and yes. Also, the money because art is worth something after all, and we spent for it. We should not end the conversation we are closer to the end before touching that we will see you soon in New York City with artificial flavors tell us a little bit what is that. And how did that start was that a residency. I was also born from a residency, kind of different residency because it was local in New York but last spring we were artists and residents at the WNYC's green space, which if you're not familiar with it is a theater that's in the WNYC building that has all kinds of programming. And we did, we did three shows over the course of our residency and then the, the first one, it had a different title and what we call it now but it was a show born just from my experiments with with writing plays using artificial intelligence. And we shared, you know, a bit of excerpts from various conversations with robots that I've been having. And, and then we figured out how to use chat GPT to actually generate what we did then is like a 20 minute musical. The actors were getting their lyrics right when it was time for them to sing the, the music director had established some chords like the kind of new more or less where a song might go, but all the actors had to improvise the melodies on the spot and do duets and sing the voices together. And it was, it was just really a wonderful and electrifying event. And as soon as, as soon as we had that night at WNYC, I said we must we must make a, like a full regular length run show in New York, as soon as humanly possible. So that's, that's what's happening, starting October 22 at 59 East 59 theaters. The show is called artificial flavors and yes we are, I'm here because it's our one day off so we are in rehearsal for it right now. And yeah, and we are, we are learning all sorts of things of how to get algorithms to, to write musicals. And yeah, I think you kind of just have to see it to really know what all that, what all that might mean. Yeah, incredible investigation into contemporary new media technology the great once here the philosopher said when traditional art forms like theater meet a new technology, then it gets interesting, you know, and both on their own often struggle. But that's, and that moment when there's hot or cold or windows continental plates of new, what is about to come and that's what we have, or we have in the past collide something, something happens and Elena what's happening what are your plans the upcoming plans for PS 21 what do you do what's happening the next year. And what do you dream about what would you love to do. Well, I think I really intimated what our dream may be for the residences it's really fostering and pressing to kind of, I don't know who funders the government the importance of places of creation and the importance of this kind of no strings attached support, but also almost utilizing the places of creation is Steve described was a dramaturgical support. It's absolutely essential as far as our plans we after a very busy summer season that we launched in May and we are continuing with the fall and also pretty robust lineup of what we are presenting besides reserve young. And let down the next weekend, we move and just now. Even yesterday we had a wonderful artist one G Rook Amuia in residency with us she stayed for a week. And focused in only on her own work she used our dance barn, our stage. And it was wonderful to have anybody who stays with us for a week. The fact that we can get to know the artists their creative process they share the sense of camaraderie and community artistic community, but also with one zero for instance we fantastic workshops with our partner organization. It's a youth serving organization and Hudson called kites nest and so for our wonderful young audience members young participants it was great to get to know when zero and they said can she come to be with us every day. And then we move on with another residency by the French choreographer on color, who will be kind of exploring ideas of the past work of pioneers like Anna Halpern and Simone 40 and Trisha Brown to develop new relationships with surroundings and her choreography with three performers will unfold in our landscape. It's very much landscape related work and then finally in November, we are presenting also a new piece by with Claire chase and win some brown. And finally we conclude with Steve's residency by the civilians, and then a solstice concert by Talia and some of the other artists. And it's a piece about Claire's grandmother, and it's combined with the dramatic piece it's a story dramatized by actor very charming eccentric story about Vincent Brown's mother. We conclude with Steve's residency by the civilians, and then a solstice concert by Talia ensemble, we present quite a lot of contemporary music that's all another notable kind of programmatic intentions of ps 21 and working on I will, since I mentioned money once, perhaps you'll allow me to mention it again but our budget is less than million dollars. There are only four of us, and we do very extensive almost year round programming plus residences. And you do the fundraising tool next to the artistic work it's a miracle you got this done you got it running and flying on that beautiful high altitude. Amazing. We have a couple of minutes last one or two Steve what are your what are upcoming projects of the civilians because what we talk about is in the works or will come. What else is on the radar. Well, we are developing a lot of new work. We, we just launched a major initiative that we've been working on for several years, called the next forever initiative, and it's a partnership between us Princeton and the city's high Meadows environmental Institute, and Princeton's Lewis Art Center, and the ideas that we will do a number of different facets, really dig in to explore the question of like how, how can dramatic narrative storytelling change the complex environmental stories or climate stories, or, you know, those, those issues that are so incredibly important and honestly very difficult to tell stories about them to kind of dig in to, you know, a subject like climate change and figure out, you know what, how to make a 90 minute show that's going to, you know, effectively do something to move the conversation forward is is tricky so we are we've launched the first two writers. They are my knocks and Karim Fami and they will be working throughout this year Princeton will offer them access to faculty members who might have expertise in aspects of the work that they're writing, and then we were teach I'm teaching you guys at Princeton on the subject of, of environmental storytelling. And we have, we have a commitment to do this for at least three years, and, and hopefully we'll keep going and, and we are working to expand and grow the program. The big phases I think racing the money to produce some of these shows because I, I think it's, you know, it is the biggest existential issue facing all people in the world right now. Amazing. Yeah, how great also that art and theater and universities come together that we have places out in a farm. It's important to decentralize American theater should not only happen in the metropolis is that people think it's not in downtown or Brooklyn is not worth anything completely wrong we have to rethink everything we question everything have communities world communities engage. And this is all part of our mission as artists and presenters, and I think you both are excellent examples, you know, other 21st century engagement in the art in a meaningful, a powerful and also engagement that has an impact, and makes a difference and as we now learn in physics that perhaps even our universe is participatory that is changes and the way it's being observed. If I understand these new ideas right you know we need to participate we need to engage. We have to go in the houses of people and the stories of people instead, you know, going to the palaces, you know, the French castles of you know monarchistic regimes I feel even when we go in the big theaters, we still go into castles and we do not go into the minds and houses of people and ask them to participate in what is the great democratic project that art is a part of the enlightenment so you both are great workers for that thank you all for taking the time especially you Steve in the middle of the preparation I can believe you have the opening soon on your free day you even have to do a lunch, a zoom call and don't get to eat right away and in peace so we really thank you it means the world to us thanks to how around for hosting us and to everybody listening please to join prelude it's on the seattle center.org its live stream on how around a lot of it not everything but it's a great investigation showing of a work in progress of over 60 artists on ensembles just from New York City thank you all and have a great day. Thank you so much thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.