 Welcome, everybody. I'm Claire Baker, MSP. I'm the convener of the Fair Work and Economy Committee. I'd like to thank you all for taking part in this afternoon's event. This is the first day of the online edition of the Festival of Politics 2021 in partnership with the Parliament's Think Tank, Scotland's Futures Forum. This afternoon's panel is entitled Greenwashing. Can Planet and Profit work together? It's held in partnership with the Scottish Council for Development and Industry. We are delighted that so many people have been able to join us online, and I look forward to hearing comments from you once we get to the discussion part of today's event. We are asking ourselves today, is business really making serious changes to address the social, environmental and economic risks being posed by climate change? Is there sufficient profit motivation for businesses to pursue climate-friendly practices? We are asking what are the real constraints on businesses, which is holding them back from doing more, and how can consumers see through the practices of greenwashing and have confidence in changes that businesses are making? This panel aims to address all of these questions in the next 60 minutes, and I hope you enjoy the discussion and stay with us. I hope that you all wish to take part, and I encourage you to use the event chat function to introduce yourselves, stating your name and geographic location, and to pose any questions that you would like the panel to respond to. I am very pleased to be joined by our third panelist today, Ian Cochran, who is director of MSc Climate Change, Finance and Investment at the University of Edinburgh Business School. Clare Reid, who is director of policy and public affairs at the Scottish Council for Development and Industry. Joe Chidley is a chemist, herbal botanist and founder of Beauty Kitchen. It is good to see Joe again, as Joe recently gave evidence to the committee in the Scottish Parliament. There will be an opportunity for the online audience to put questions and views to the panel throughout the event. If you would like to make a contribution, please enter them into the question and answer box, and if you could state your first name and who you are from this afternoon, I will get to as many questions as possible once we have heard initially from the panelist. First, I will ask the panelist, as today we are talking about greenwashing, if they could give their definition of greenwashing and perhaps give us a few examples to illustrate it. I will come first to Ian, then Clare and then Joe. Ian, if I ask you to outline your initial thoughts, please. Hello, everyone. Many thanks, Clare, for the introduction today's session. I am really happy to be here to speak and exchange and discuss with everyone. So, in terms of a formal definition of greenwashing, I'm sure it's defined in some encyclopedia or some textbook somewhere, but I think from my point of view, greenwashing is today increasingly seen as some type of actor making an environmentally related commitment, and particularly linked to some type of impact or outcome, whether that's a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, impacts on biodiversity, or their ability to really contribute to raising society's resilience to the impacts of climate change. Greenwashing occurs when this commitment is made and then some steps are partially made to perhaps achieve that final outcome, but in the end, you know, they're really not taking a sufficient or sufficiently ambitious level of action in order to really achieve what they've said they're going to do. And I think there's something we can see across all levels today. I know today we wanted to talk principally about business and the private sector and greenwashing, you know, whether it's at a corporate actor that says they're taking steps to contribute to reducing global greenhouse gas emissions, but might really just be kind of changing things to make their own kind of footprint of emissions of better, but not really change anything in the real economy. But we can also talk about, potentially, what you see and perhaps is less on the table for today at a government level as well, because greenwashing can happen as well when a government or a public actor, whether a public development bank or a ministry sets some type of climate-related commitment, and there might be making progress with one hand, but continuing to kind of also then support inconsistent or non-aligned policy objectives with another. So, I think, you know, when we hear greenwashing, we might off immediately think of corporate actors, oil companies that aren't doing what they should be doing, but I think we can really broaden this out potentially to see how, when any actor's making a commitment to climate, how can we keep them accountable and ensure that there's transparency in terms of their progress to achieving that goal. Thank you, Ian. It's interesting that you raised the role of government as well as business, and that might be something that panellists or the audience would like to reflect on. I'll go now to Claire Reid. Thank you, Claire. Thank you for inviting us along this afternoon. I'm very pleased to be here and to be partnering with you on this event. Maybe if I can build on what Ian said, I suppose another way to think about greenwashing is maybe in terms of a product or service, which has quite often been when it's hit the headlines recently. So, greenwashing can potentially be making false statements or over-exaggerating the sustainability of products or services and advertising. So, as consumers, we are naturally more interested in the sustainability of our products and services that we're buying, and more organisations are now looking to tap into that desire for sustainability. Sometimes that sustainability comes at a premium from products and services. I think that the risk for any organisation is that adding that term to a product or services is going to bring additional scrutiny. Expectations amongst us, as consumers, are high around sustainability, and a number of organisations have fallen foul of that. Some of them have been, for example, in the fashion arena where products have been advertised as sustainable or eco-friendly, and they have some good credentials. For example, they may use a recycled material and some aspects of recycling in their sustainability in their manufacturing process, for example, or in their other aspects of their operation. But when you look at the product in terms of its whole life cycle and maybe in terms of wider business operations, it may not be fulfilling all the expectations that consumers might have from a sustainable product, and that's where businesses might come unstuck. Part of the challenge is that the terms sustainable or eco-friendly or net zero or green can be open to different interpretations. There might be good intentions and good aspects of what organisations are trying to do, but you need to be very careful, particularly when you're giving something an eco-friendly or a sustainable label, that you can verify and validate your claims. Thank you, Claire. Joe, would you like to make some comments to start us off? Invite me here. My name is Joe Chidley. I run a business called Beauty Kitchen and Return Refill Repeat. What we do is work within the personal care industry, which is known for a lot of greenwashing, so I'm really glad to try to come here and clarify what it means for our industry. Generally, it's to sell more products in some way, so it's marketeers that use it to their advantage. However, very recently, the CMA, the Competition's Markets Authority, have brought in what they're calling the green claims code to try and help honest businesses and the honesty side of it to come to the fore to pick up on businesses and other organisations that are using these to their advantage. Like any generalist term—I know Claire and Ian have touched on this—if you take the word sustainability or green or even net zero, it is open to interpretation. What happens with interpretation is that, generally, from a business perspective, it gets used to the advantage of selling the products. For us, how we tackle that is that we contextualise anything that we say we're going to do and we do that through third-party verification marks. In other organisations, that would be through regulation. We're a highly regulated industry, but we use things like cradle to cradle, for example, certification and B Corp certification. That means that whatever we're saying, there's an independent verifier to say what we're saying is actually the truth. I'm quite keen to hear questions from the audience if people want to put it in the Q&A. I'm sure that you'll agree that our three panellists have a lot to contribute on this subject and would welcome questions. Can I go back to Jo? First of all, you mentioned the competition and markets authority. They have recently raised concerns about a surge in the number of misleading claims. It can be quite difficult for the consumer to know and have confidence in a product. You mentioned a green claims code, but is that a mandatory code? We're still in an area where it can be difficult for the consumer to believe what a label tells them. If there's not a mandatory code in place, someone can make a claim just under a different attractive-looking label, and nobody's an analyser. What they're doing is trying to raise it as an awareness campaign in the first instance, while they build up towards more stringent regulation. What's come out of it as well is that I'm a member of the British Beauty Council and a variety of other industry-led associations. There has been a creation of the Sustainable Beauty Coalition. We want to drive the change, particularly within green washing, to give consumers the confidence that what they're hearing from brands, retailers and other organisations, particularly within our industry, but it goes beyond that. It's all consumer products, really, is where it comes down to. I think that the opportunity here, with regard to the green claims code, is the fact that it's raising awareness about being more environmentally friendly, being more sustainable. However much there might be perceived as... I'm doing it like this, green washing. What that does is raise the sort of media attention to then have the discussions like we're having today to raise more awareness so that you can start to be more stringent and more aware of the products that you're buying and looking to those associations or organisations or certifying bodies that are going to give you that one version of the truth. I don't like using the word consumer. I love that Ian and Claire both said citizens. In the complicated world that we live in, we're no longer consumers. Yes, we consume things, but actually we're citizens. The more that we talk about responsibility and the stuff that we're buying, that is going to be more helpful. Green washing will always be around because you've got interpretation. Claire, can I ask you to a big comment on that? Joe has raised consumers as opposed to citizens, but do you feel that the public are well enough informed and that the current regulations and guidance for buying any products is clear enough to people? Is that realistic? I think that it remains to be seen once the guidance comes into place and how that changes, how organisations choose to describe their products and services. I think that we are undoubtedly in that period of transition. Even in the run-up to COP, we have seen how it is raised, as Joe pointed out, awareness about sustainability and net zero. That has opened a lot of people's eyes to what does that mean for me. A lot of organisations, my own organisation, have started tracking our carbon footprint to try to understand it. Even just that process makes you much more aware. We have to give the standards a chance and we have to see what difference that makes. As Joe said, it starts a conversation. We have called in our policy work for us all to become more carbon literate. We have encouraged educators to think about, right across from primary schools to further education and lifelong learning, what we are doing to make people more carbon literate so that we all understand what those terms mean and we can interpret the language. The other thing that I would say is that it is quite a lot of places that you can go to and do some research to understand what a company's commitments are, what their process looks like. You can ask at the point of making a purchase, where does this come from, what is the sustainability, for example. The other thing that I was going to mention is that there are some really good apps as well, that you can geeky bad as a good example, where you can just scan a barcode at the till and find out information about that company's sustainability practices. Increasingly, there is a lot more information out there. It is just going to take a while, a bit longer to become more up to speed with it. Iain, do you think, because that discussion is also putting the responsibility on to the consumer to make decisions about the products that they make, rather than the corporate or the business side having to change the products or the way in which they produce? Do you have any comments on the role of the consumer and, as opposed to the importance of corporations, making the changes themselves? I think that that is really an essential question, because there is only so much that consumers on their own can do to change a system. In the sense that we buy our products, we contract our services with the offer that is on the market, some people become entrepreneurs and decide to build a new service or create a new product, not everyone is going to try to fill those gaps in the market. I think there are choices that individuals can make about how to reduce their environmental impacts and how to support companies that aren't just selling green or climate compatible services, but also have a broader strategy seeking to help reduce emissions and increase resilience. I think consumers can make those active choices, but when we are presented with a challenge such as we have in front of us today and what we really need are changes at the entire system level, we need to have all companies and practices moving in a more sustainable and particularly net zero and resilient manner, that's when I really think we do have to do something more at a regulatory level and I think that is what we're seeing. This green claims code is a great example that I actually wasn't aware of. I work more kind of on the financial markets and financial services and in that space where you have all these financial service companies and banks selling green loans, green products, green bonds, we see a similar trend where the focus today is on ensuring that when a claim is made it's backed up in fact and that if you're calling something green, we have a shared definition of what that means, but there is a point as well that we can't only rely on increased information and I think the question kind of from Eugenie in the chat right now about recycling and at what point is providing more information on what is recycled and what's not recycled is good, but there's a point as well where you also need to regulate what's being made or at least that's my personal opinion and what's entering into the system and so things that can't be recycled potentially at some point should not be produced. That's perhaps a strong position and we need time to reach it, that state or that actually being the reality. But to go back to your question Claire, I think it's really about seeing that more information is important but it needs to be paired as well with policy and potentially regulation that help change that set of choices that consumers have in order to actually be able to do something with that information rather than just say oh no I have a really bad carbon footprint but actually say I actually now can choose these services to reduce it and there's policies supporting to make those actually accessible financially as well as depending on where you live in a country etc. As you say we have a question from Eugenie which is about packaging and recycling. There should be a responsibility from the manufacturer to package and only recycle packaging. I think we all know the frustration of your willing to try to recycle but you find some of the materials involved in your packaging there's no way to do that. Joe, that is quite important to your business model. Do you want to comment on Eugenie's question? Yeah, so there's a couple of things here as well and I don't know where to put the links in whether to put that in the chat or not so I'll come back to that. But I know that Zeroway Scotland is working with the Scottish Government at the moment on the extended producer responsibility and I think EPR schemes are not necessarily the perfect schemes but it's definitely something that drives the change because a lot of what happens particularly within packaging is really left to the end customer rather than brands, retailers and manufacturers taking responsibility for that and I feel quite strongly about that and that was one of the reasons why when we set up our initial personal care brand we set up a reusable packaging programme Beauty Kitchen was the first customer but we then opened that up to the industry not just personal care but also other consumer products like milk and other liquids and dry goods because I think collaboration here not just we call it a three-sided network but thinking about today it's almost a four-sided network where you have consumers, you have brands, retailers and policy makers and we actually all need to work together and it's not about competitive advantage it's about sustainable advantage for all because packaging it's always going to be here just like consuming stuff is always going to happen so it's about thinking about the systems changes that are needed and required and how do you support them with all of the innovation that's out there and that's really what we want to try and drive change but not to drive change for ourselves competitive advantage to drive change for everyone Claire, I've had a question from Sandy Carmichael which is linked to this who asks about do you think there's any appetite or interest in creating a kite mark type of badging that would make it clearer to the consumer in a brief pictorial way you're working with businesses across Scotland do you think there is a desire for them to have an easier way to prove any changes they're making and what does that mean for businesses who maybe aren't in this position at the moment to make those changes or don't believe they need to make those changes? Oh, that's a good question potentially quite a big question as well because I guess the aspects that we're talking about can cover a number of different elements of what a business is doing so I guess there's one element that's about your carbon emissions it might also be about the recycling or the recyclability of your products could be around fair work in terms of how you treat your staff and your supply chain so I think a kite mark is an interesting idea and I think there's merit in exploring that I suppose the challenge would be around how you apply that easily so if you take something like food standards it's taken quite a long time to get the industry to agree maybe in terms of how food packaging should be a kite mark but I think it's a really good place to start and if we can do it in housing for example around energy performance certificates if we can do it in other markets then there should be no reason why in certain industries we can't do that I just wanted to add a point as well in terms of the earlier question around what can we do I do agree that it's not just about consumers just want to be that clear it's not just about us informing ourselves but I think there's power in us in terms of how consumers are citizens and we can actually make quite a lot of change happen I think we've seen that in quite a lot of good examples recently that was people taking to Twitter and getting organisations to change the behaviour quite quickly but yeah I think the wider system is just as important so government procurement the finance sector we've got the global ethical finance initiative here in Edinburgh and you and we'll know a lot more about that regulation has a role and also public procurement I think play a role in terms of encouraging businesses to demonstrate more sustainable practice so yeah I think sorry I've gone slightly off to Sandy's question but yeah I agree I think it's an area that has met it the challenge might just be sort of finding areas to apply it and get the different industries to agree but Jo might have a view on that because I'm sure she's been keen I mean I think the challenge for small businesses is you know I think that would be beneficial because it allows you to compete on a more level playing field but it's the implementation of it I guess is the challenge so I think it's got merit and then a kind of final question around the issue of regulations I can't find it sorry Nick Underwood Nick is asking whether we need more regulation enforcement powers and would it need a new agency or would this lead could be led by the ASA Ian do you want to respond to because you did mention earlier the balance between businesses taking action because it's the right thing to do and businesses being made to take action whether that's through regulation or enforcement and do you think those powers need to be on a country basis or is there a role for an international body we're obviously coming up to COP26 is there a role for international decisions to be made in these type of areas that's a great question Claire both and thank you Nick as well for posing that to the panel I have to say in terms of exactly what's going on in Scotland in the UK I can't really comment on if we need a new agency here just because as you can probably tell from my accent I'm not here from here originally but I've been in Glasgow area now for over five years it's now my second home there is a bigger question here about do we need a new agency to come in and enforce or can we ask ourselves how do we retool our existing agencies actually do something that you know in the financial sector at least is called mainstreaming and this really this idea of that climate and more sustainability practice needs to be part of the mandate of all our governance institutions and so we need to take a look at the regulators that are already in place and really make sure their mandates integrate thresholds criteria guidance programs as well as you know the ability to ensure that information is made available to consumers rather potentially than creating a new agency you know I think sometimes there's a knee jerk to create something new because sometimes it allows you politically to make a nice announcement but at times what we need to do is the harder job of take a close look at how everyone's already involved in the governance of our economy and see how could they do potentially more and contribute more given the powers they have but with a climate and sustainability mandate and we've seen this quite a bit in the financial sector recently and I think you know we're going to have the oh goodness I'm forgetting the term G-fans the Glasgow financial you know it all did acronyms out there now but you know we see these alliances of financial institutions supported by you know Mark Carney and other very high level high profile actors in the financial sector and what they are seeking to do is to push these financial institutions to do more on climate change and integrate it into all of their business lines so again I you know coming back to your question Claire sorry to be a bit long winded it's really for me about before we try to create something new that stand apart we really need to see how can we make kind of the existing systems work better because you run that risk of creating you know and I hate to say this is an ESG an environmental, social and governance department that is given a mandate but let's be honest has no power and no teeth and so unless we really make sure the whole system knows this is what you have to do we run we run the risk of creating agencies that have really great mandates and ideas but don't have the power to actually get it done Thank you Ian We have another question from Youshini and she's raised an issue that has been in the headlines a bit that businesses will plant trees to offset their carbon footprint it's you know I've seen things you buy this t-shirt and you'll plant a tree or these kind of celling models you know she makes the point the trees isn't really the best way of reducing a businesses carbon footprint is it really the most effective way to do it or is it more a marketing tool Jo do you want to comment on these type of promotions that businesses will do? I do we use it so it depends on how it's verified and that's where for us it's all about independent verification you know so for us what we've found is that it's a great way not just to engage with our customer base but also it helps us to offset in a variety of different ways because everybody's on the journey to net zero and if you don't know what that is it means any emissions that you have in your business or otherwise you're trying to get them to zero is a very hard thing to do especially if you want to take science based targets however one of the ways to offset and I think most people would agree that deforestation is the biggest driver of climate change it's not the only driver of climate change but it's huge and I'm not saying just plant any trees or plant them anywhere it has to be dignified it has to be thought through and there's lots of great offsetting programmes that are out there but you need to ensure that they are verified I think it's also a way to in a really I think it's a really clever simple way you know because everybody knows that trees are important and if that's the way for us to get people engaged with nature rather than trying to understand carbon emissions that they can't see they don't know about where is a tree is something that you can visually you see I hope most people see every single day so I think it's about how it's done and if it's done thoughtfully again it will be open to greenwashing without a doubt however I do believe that the majority not all the majority of companies come from a place of honesty the reason why they set up their business in the first place was to solve a problem for either themselves or someone else and maybe I'm just too positive but I do believe that most companies are doing this for positive effect it just has to be managed carefully Claire, do you have any comments on that? We had a panel that Joe was on a few weeks ago in Parliament that came on the back of the Federation of Small Businesses raising with us can you know, highlighting to us that some businesses obviously businesses are going through Covid it's been a huge impact on Scotland's economy and the global economy is it really dealing with their carbon footprint a priority set up in order to know how to do this they had concerns that some businesses just weren't engaged with this at all partly because it's something they didn't think was relevant to them or they were just too impacted by the pandemic to even think about this Yeah, absolutely I agree with what Joe said I think planting trees it definitely has a role to play I think the organisations that we've seen are perhaps doing it in addition to other things that they're doing so I think if that's the only thing you're doing then maybe it does look a little bit suspect but actually in most cases organisations need to be doing it as part of other measures and actually one of the interesting case studies on our website if you look up Change for Climate CDI was an organisation who were planting trees but then actually took their staff out to plant the trees and think about the amount of carbon they were using as a business, as a way of raising awareness and getting people engaged in what else they could do and actually lots of different measures that they're undertaking I mean it is undoubtedly a really difficult time for business and I can understand the resistance to look at this as another thing to be thinking about but there's some really good case studies I think we need to help business to understand the profit the benefits there are changes that are coming in terms of regulations so it's helping businesses to plan to meet those changes there's a lot of citizen customer interest in sustainability of products and it's actually an advantage for small businesses as well to think about making that change but I mean there's no doubt there's a challenge here and I think that's one of the areas that we need to work together on so if 99% of businesses are small and medium sized and I think a recent survey suggested that 40% of them don't yet have a sustainability plan and 30% don't have any intention to have a plan then we've got a big job there to help them to understand what support is on offer and to understand how to make a start on their own journeys Thank you, thanks Claire and we've had a question from Joanne Binney who's based in Glasgow and she's asking for panelist thoughts on greenwashing accusations that the UK Government has based in relation to COP26 and Ian you talked about not just the greenwashing that takes place among businesses as well. Do you have any reflections on the UK Government or other Governments as we come up to COP26? Thanks Claire and thanks Joanne I think every Government when they agree to host a COP know that they're going to be put under the microscope and particularly given with the fact that there hasn't been a COP now for two years, the UK Government is putting it being put under an electron scanning microscope so very very very close to detail. I think that the accusations of greenwashing it's a bit more complex than that. I think we can say Governments definitely greenwashing. We've seen quite a few announcements on just yesterday about a lot of the targets and the plans for the UK to reach its net zero ambitions and targets and I think we're going to need some time to process all that although I think there's some parts that have already been critiqued about whether or not the level of ambition is there but perhaps beyond just the individual plans I think one of the big topics in greenwashing which I think we're going to see a lot at the COP and unfortunately also concern Scotland perhaps even more than down south is how does a Government balance the green narrative and the green policies as well as continued role in supporting or seeing the role that fossil fuels play in an important way whether it's exploration and granting permits for new exploration and extraction and sale or it's in not addressing which again is going to be the key UK level challenge of the dependence of Governments now on fossil fuel related taxes that exist on fuel taxes for the public budget which is proving to be a stumbling point with the UK really figuring out how to finance the ambition of some of the plans announced so that greenwashing is then this kind of we need to be careful and think about whether or not what's being kind of promised is sufficiently ambitious but really making sure as well that with one hand we're not giving but taking away with the other when we're supporting policies that are consistent with these kind of high level climate goals. As we come towards COP26, is there any countries coming along who you think are doing a good job at this who are taking it seriously and are actually making effective change? Is there any country that's kind of a star who's coming into Glasgow in the next few weeks? I think there's a lot of countries who'd like to be seen as the star the real challenge of this and I don't want to underestimate and say this is really easy we just need to get our acts together and change the economy and society. This is complicated I mean every country is dealing with their own kind of stumbling blocks and I think there's countries such as the UK and France and others who can actually at least say you know we're really looking to try to see how to do this. We've created bodies such as the Committee on Climate Change or in France the High Council on Climate that are attempting to really kind of give the science based input into the government and I think that's one of those key important steps because as we started in today's conversation we need information and these groups are set up now to provide that constructive criticism of government policy and point out where we might see examples of greenwashing and I think we're going to see hopefully similar efforts in other countries around the world. But Clara, I don't know if you'd allow me just maybe to just say one word in addition on Eugenie's comment about not necessarily planting trees but this big issue of offsetting because I also think this is going to be an important issue discussed at the COP this year. I'm seeing your head nod. Great. Putting trees aside which is one way to offset your emissions so you plant a tree and it pulls carbon out of the atmosphere more or less equivalent hopefully to what you've been putting in for the activity you're seeking to offset there is a little bit of a challenge around and there's a lot of discussion on what role should offsetting play in achieving what we're now calling a net zero target where we're that balance between emissions and the technical term of sequestration is equal so we're not emitting anything and the challenge with offsetting and particularly as we see more and more businesses seeing how can I integrate offsetting into my strategy to be net zero as a business is that if everyone offsets it actually means we don't reduce emissions because in the end those offsets are reaching zero but it's not reducing and this was a problem we saw with the Kyoto protocol so what kind of came before the Paris agreement is that we were pretty good at offsetting in the end but we were still having a hard time collectively reducing emissions overall so I think land use in forestry and planting trees have a role definitely to play in reducing our carbon footprint and reaching net zero but I think we really need to make sure we reserve those offsets for those activities where it's really hard if not impossible to reduce emissions and so there I think it's the challenge for corporate actors to ask themselves am I using offsets because it's easy or a little less expensive than actually making changes in my own business in the medium to long term or am I using offsets because at least today I have no choice because there's no other feasible way for me to be net zero without you know purchasing those offsets or supporting the development of the planting of trees etc so I think we really need to I think that again that's going to be one of the big topics particularly as we see both the financial sector and a lot of corporate actors presenting exactly how they're going to be net zero and at least the NGO community is going to be paying very close to attention to what they're doing with offsets Thank you Ian it does set out some of the tensions that are in the decision making that has to be done for governments and for corporations Stu is asking whether greenwashing should be used in a more pejorative fashion we should use it I suppose that's what Greta Thunberg has taken approach you know to aim and call out governments and corporations who just aren't doing enough for an emergency that we are genuinely in and the Scottish Government and other parliaments and governments have recognised we're in a climate emergency so do you think Joe you want to comment on this because your sector is one I know you're in the beauty sector largely but also I think Claire mentioned fast fashion has been an issue do you want to comment on what you said so need to be more calling out of businesses and lack of action from governments do you feel I feel really strongly that yes there should be if I don't like to use big stats because I think they just get lost but just for emphasis the personal care industry creates 190 billion pieces of single use plastic packaging every year I don't know how many zeros that is it's a lot yeah and we are reusing less than ever before and this is what the challenge one of the challenges that we have which is a challenge for governments and policy makers is at the moment it is cheaper to create single use packaging even on top of any plastic tax or any extended producer responsibility than it would be to use reusable packaging because reusable packaging at the moment is not seen as an asset so there's some policy changes that have to happen to make it a level playing field for circular business models because when you're a linear economy which for me is redundant and obsolete but we're all part of it is that you take resources you make something and then it gets disposed of in some other format and recycling is ultimately downcycling as well so the only solution is to create circular business models not just from a true net zero but also the fact that we know we're always going to be a global population of consumers in some format so the circular business models have to have more support because we're not in a level playing field with linear business models at the moment so not only is it a harder sell for us but we are the ones that are having to create the infrastructure that sits behind that as well and don't get me wrong I don't mind a challenge yet because I'm very determined and I know a lot of people in the circular economy space are but the thing is it would just be great if it was just a level playing field and I'm sure both Ian and Claire will have comments on that because when you were a committee recently Joe it did feel as though your business was in a lot of innovative work that other bigger corporations much more finance than you will get the benefit from because you're doing all the legwork you're doing all the heavy lifting at this stage David Neil has a similar when you talk about a circular economy has talked about coffee cups I know more people do use reusable cups but at the moment that's just a personal choice some businesses will give you a discount on your coffee if you turn up with one but it's still a personal choice in Scotland we did introduce the charges for plastic bags do you think that we need to do more of that whether it's more deposit schemes or more penalty schemes do you think that's something that would help change people's behaviour I go to Joe I think it will help but when it comes to consumer behaviour we're currently working with Sheffield University and Imperial College London at the moment around how consumers interact and how you change behaviours particularly when it comes to refill and reuse because it's about accessibility it's about convenience and there's a lot of stopping points so an additional cost sometimes that does work and it nudges along the journey but it's more an overall systems change approach that needs to be tackled we have to really get under the skin of circular ways of doing things I know that there's an innovative company that's doing reusable coffee cups that are based in Glasgow and I'll put the link in the chat where what will happen is that you don't need to have your own reusable cup that will be the reusable cup and then it's the drop off point and we'll be doing a similar system and I think there will be more of that because at the moment we know and you mentioned it earlier on people want more recycled content they want more refills and reuse and the challenge is that we need to have either the choice of brands or the different price points within the brands that they can choose so they're still stuck in the linear model at a supermarket or wherever they purchase things so I think there is a huge and that's where for me COP26 is a moment in time that can help to facilitate some of these changes particularly when it comes to reuse I have a teenager at home I'd be interested in the reusable model because I think we have more reusable water bottles and drinking cups and coffee cups it doesn't really defeat the purpose of consuming less where we have so many of these reusable products David Neil has also talked about cycle paths that could be covered with solar panels a national source of energy and increased electric bike use I suppose that's more questions around infrastructure changes because we've talked quite a lot about products but is there infrastructure changes that need to be made Clare, I don't know if you have any perspective from the businesses that you work with and your understanding of the Scottish economy if there's more that could be done in terms of infrastructure to support the changes that need to be made Yeah, undoubtedly so I can't actually see the question there I suppose what we've touched on today and hopefully will be part of the discussion at COP is it's about a system change so Joe highlighted it very clearly in terms of it's about right from the beginning of a product's life cycle right to the end infrastructure is definitely part of that so in our policy work we've been calling for thinking about how to make places and spaces healthier make them more sustainable make choices and I think it's definitely something there about making choices to be sustainable much easier so we touched on earlier and someone has highlighted that there's perhaps inconsistency across different parts of Scotland around what can and can be recycled so that's something we need to look at in terms of the system it's about getting the obligations for our employers right as well in terms of their responsibility for the products that they sell to consumers or maybe don't quite have the balance right in terms of that but there's loads of great examples in terms of infrastructure that can use some of those recycle products so for example in the road building industry there are sort of recycled tyres being used to make pavements and increasingly I think in the built environment builders are looking at different ways to recycle products and materials as they're actually building or refitting or working on buildings to reduce the amount of new product that they have to use thereby reducing the carbon footprint of the building so that's definitely part of the solution as well and just to touch on what was really clear to me earlier on we were talking about it we need the ambition and the targets we need the transparency which I think is what everyone's touched on today in terms of greenwashing the transparency whether it's from government from businesses and others around what we're doing and then I think the final area of frustration has really been around delivery and I think there are lots of really good things happening in Scotland and in the UK there's lots of great examples from other countries that we can learn from so for example France is doing a lot around re-making and recycling no country is perfect but I think it's something that COP is helping us all to have a conversation about thank you Claire and then Ian, prior to starting the event we had a bit of a chat about transition plans and the role for corporations in producing plans do you want to comment on that issue could you maybe say a few words about that yeah sure thank you Claire and I think this kind of very fits much with what Claire Reid just said about talking about the ambition and the transparency and the delivery and often when you think about what actually sometimes gives you transparency on all three of those areas it is some type of plan not just the goals but how you're going to go about implementing it whether you're a country or an agency or a company in a firm and what we actually just saw I don't know if it was this week or the end of last week you know at the level again of the financial sector is that and at the financial regulation side which for probably many people in their daily life that's a whole different world in reality but in some sense what we're starting to see is that guidance is being issued by kind of those international bodies that govern how the financial system works saying that you know financial institutions and the corporations and companies they're lending to when providing finance and capital to should be putting together transition plans and these transition plans should provide information about how these companies are going to manage their climate related risks to whether it's the physical impacts of climate change or changes in demand or you know policy changes such as different forms of taxation so how is that integrated into their business strategy but also pushes companies to talk about how are they particularly if they're calling themselves green or sustainable or you know climate aligned is a term we hear quite a bit in the financial community how are they actually contributing to our societal objectives not just managing their own profit and loss but really thinking about what impact they have you know as a part of all of us in the broader economy and this might seem like something you know that should have been happening anyway of course these people should be putting together transition plans but it actually is potentially the big next step to make sure that greenwashing is limited as much as possible because at least for corporate actors and potentially starting with financial banks in the European Union they'll have to publish these plans transparently and most likely there will be some type of at least at a later date follow up and assessment at minimum from the NGO community of course and I work with a think tank in addition to the university but also you know potentially from the regulatory side of things so if you buy a bond or some type of financial product that's been labeled as green not only can we assess how those funds were used linked to that financial product did that really support green things and then you can also look did the institution that issued that financial product are they really committed to a green outcome because they'll also be making a return on the funds at some point you led to them in some way so these transition plans are really a big next step yes they're going to take time to get into place for probably a lot of small businesses that might be seen as extra paperwork but in the end hopefully it will help everyone think a bit more strategically about if we're serious on climate can my business survive in this new reality which is really going to present a lot of opportunities but also does represent a moment of change and transition that collectively we do need to see how to move forward and hopefully move forward as quickly as possible as again we're in this what everyone is calling the critical decade for action because I have a question from Stu again who's asking is net serial emissions just the greenwashing of serial emissions and you've mentioned their timescales Ian about the pressure on government to deliver but we do talk about that earlier about offsetting when do you think governments really need to make the emphasis more on reducing emissions rather than using a net zero emissions type calculation I would say governments need to focus on the reduction now they should have been thinking about the reductions 10, 15, 20 years ago next year will be the 30th anniversary of the signature in Rio in 1992 of the UNF United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change more or less the start of all this but that term net zero isn't necessarily a bad thing but it can be greenwashed as a term because in the end everything we do has some type of emissions the food we eat whether it's vegetarian or omnivore friendly when we turn on everything we make there is going to be some type of emissions but what is important is that we achieve a balance and that's what the net zero concept is all about but that balance isn't at an individual level it isn't at a company level and it's not even at a country level we need to reach a global balance and that's really hard and that's why the cops happen each year and why sometimes the progress seems so glacially slow is because it is hard to negotiate and so what we need to make sure is that we understand this net zero goal is international but if we really are going to contribute we individually need to reduce and I say we more at a corporate level because again I strongly believe that as individuals we're kind of trapped a bit in the role that's given to us in terms of consumer choice although we do have choice and we need to make sure we act on that and so I think that's where we need to make sure that no one's hiding behind net zero to just kind of do the minimum and offset and say okay I'm net zero because I bought a lot of emission reductions from a hydropower dam in Cambodia which actually a lot of our offsets still come from today and but really say you know I'm net zero because I've reduced the emissions in my supply chain my production cycle and today you know what I couldn't reduce this but I bought credits on the voluntary offset market that are that have a good certification but you know in two years time I don't want to be doing that anymore I want to be really reducing my emissions and I think that's where you know we need to kind of open the books and really understand what's behind going back to the idea of the transition plan both the net zero commitment but also how is each actor really planning to get there and how are they going to be transparent about that progress that's great thank you so much Ian that actually brings us to the end of the question session I'm going to invite all our panellists to maybe have a minute to just any final words or summary you would like to make I'll go first to Claire and then Jo and then Ian thank you and thanks for inviting me along today it's been a great discussion and actually one that could go on for a long time there's so much to cover here and thanks to participants for their questions that's given a lot of food for thought because we're closing the marks quite a lot of the work that we've done has been with large and small businesses but particularly with small businesses and I would say we're keen to encourage the vast majority of businesses to make a start there are lots of businesses who like Jo's have put sustainability at the heart of the business at the start of the outcome at the outset but actually for a lot of businesses it's about they're somewhere on a journey so we wouldn't want people to be discouraged by the discussion today just about understanding that people will want to understand more about what you're doing there are lots of places for organisations who might be listening in who are thinking about this to find information so we talked about the CMA SCDIs we're working with NatureScot so our change for climate is five easy steps to net zero and supporting nature based activities so I think I'd probably like to end on a positive note we're right to hold our politicians to and organisations to high expectations but we would still encourage small businesses to make a start and to look at businesses like Jo's in terms of case studies and things they can do That's great, thank you Claire Jo Thanks very much for that Claire and we are open source if anybody wants to find out how we are targeting what we call real net zero we've had support from Zero Way Scotland in a variety of other areas to be able to get to a real net zero by 2025 and the reason for that is because of our business model but we are more than happy to share and help anyone else out there that's looking for ideas and thinking how will this really work for me the one thing that I can say is that people, planet and profit the triple bottom line is how to make it more commercially viable and it helps everyone Thank you for today Thank you Jo, thank you for taking part and Ian, do you have any final comments? Can I have Ian's mic off please? All right, there we go, sorry muted for a minute, so I was just going to say I know we don't have much time but I think this is a great conversation that we've had and I've been really excited to learn about what Jo's business is doing and then of course have Claire read here as well it's really important that we do see how to get smaller and medium sized business on board with this because these are the actors that often don't have the excess capacity or funds to hire and experts and do all this so how can we support them from the very start and at times they're the actors that have the least resiliency to shocks because they don't have the deep impacts they can't run on a loss and do some type of financial wizardry to kind of get through with some of the bigger corporate actors can do so I think it's really important to keep these pillars of our economy going but see how we can make them green and sustainable pillars so I'm hoping Scotland and I think that if the will is there there's a real opportunity to see how to really build this green economy and low carbon economy moving forward so thanks so much to everyone for listening in and of course to Claire and others for inviting me here today Thank you Ian so much to Joel, Ian and Claire for your contributions this afternoon and to everyone who's put questions forward and everyone who's listened in this afternoon sorry I couldn't get to all the questions but I hope people have enjoyed the discussion and also thanks to the Scottish Council for Development and Industry who have partnered with us for this afternoon's event can I just remind everyone who's here that tonight we do also have a panel on making our city safer and also at 7.30 there's an conversation tonight with the writer and environmentalist George Monbiol and we also have free events running through till Sunday on everything from food carbon footprint to political diversity and fast fashion so I do hope you will be able to join in those sessions and you can register on the Scottish Parliament website Thank you