 Hello. Hey, hello. I may not hear mangoes, because that'd be good. It's the Viking and Jelly show now, mangoes. And there I am. Holy shit, man. What the fuck is going on tonight? Yeah. Testing, testing. I heard myself suddenly go, hello. Oh, sorry, guys, we're going to get through it, holy shit. Been playing over Prime all week, and I haven't really adjusted anything. All right, let me go. Let me try this again. Hello, everyone. Welcome to For The Manions, the weekly show where we talk about Paragon Predecessor and Over Prime. This week, we're going to be talking about predecessors reassuring Reddit posts from RGSA's Over Prime's massively successful final beta test. I did this way better the first time. And then Paragon Predecessor and Over Prime. So did I say Paragon? Yeah, but we still talk about it. Keep going. Yeah, ethereal, too. God damn it. Let's just get into it. I'm your host, the man goose. We're talking about ethereal. Fucking jelly. Go. God damn. Oh, man. I'm the friend and co-host that is always here with man goose, the jelly knees. How are you doing, jelly? I'm fantastic man goose. I'm so happy to be here. And I've been sick all week, but I'm here anyway, and I've been playing far too much over Prime, I'm sure, especially more than what my girlfriend would like me to be playing. But I've been having a ton of fun and I'm happy to talk about it. But with us as well, we've got the Viking Jedi. Welcome back Viking. How are you, sir? I'm, again, too, too blessed to complain. It's been a lot of fun playing the play test. I've been really enjoying it. And yeah, and it's been, I mean, only a few frustrating games, and I know people have been talking about like some trolls and stuff, and I know we're going to get into that. I think we've only really experienced it a few times. Too crazy. But yeah, no, other than that, man, really, really good. You're already getting compliments on your new hair. Oh, thanks, guys. All right, so let's go ahead and head on into a predecessor and make let me make sure that all the audio and everything is actually working in it. It is. It's working. Huzzah. Like I said, all this stuff, like the visuals are on point. It's the audio that I got. Dang. So a predecessor, they had a Reddit post that was pretty much saying, hey, we hear you guys that we haven't we apologize for the radio silence. We'll try to be better in the future. We're working on console, working on this, working on that. Not sure. Do they might have it pulled up? Like I didn't pull it up overnight, but. Yeah, it was just a quick message in Reddit from RGSAs. People took it in different ways, I think. I think with predecessor overprime all of these, you've got like the small camp where like predecessor can just do no wrong whatsoever. And they're small, but very loud. And you've got the other small, but very loud camp of predecessor can never do anything right. And they will never accept anything that predecessor does. But in the middle is the vast majority of people that are just wanting a Paragon ish game and just waiting for news. I don't think this message did enough, especially without any follow up info to sway anybody in that middle ground. And it just gave ammo to these guys without really giving enough ammo to these guys. You know what I mean? 100 percent. But it was nice to see, though. It says a lot without saying anything, right? Like it's and that's just the post in a nutshell, right? Is there's a lot of like the same thing that we've heard. It definitely felt like an interim. We're posting this because we have nothing else to post before we post the big stuff. Yeah. And so for what it is, it's fine, right? It was the biggest thing that it reminded me of. And I told you guys this is that feeling of a company wanting to look triple A, but definitively not acting triple A. They're like trying to get ahead of a non-existent thing, right? Like that it's not like people people were upset that there was no news to be sure, right? We've said for several weeks, we've had no predecessor news. But they were trying to get in. It felt like they were trying to get in front of something before anything was really happening. And it just is a weird. It was a weird post just out of the blue. And I wish if you're trying to do this to like sway your community to buy yourself some time, put it out more than just on Reddit and Twitter. Yeah, that's been a problem of theirs for a while now. There's they put stuff out in pieces and on different forms of social media instead of one blast on all forms of social media, which for certain things, like if you're trying to drive people from one place to another, fine, right? Like like a theory, for instance, did the items and a different item on each day went to a different place, right? That's to me, slightly different when it's something like this, where you're trying to like news, keep your community calm down, like give them something. Yeah, you want it to be the full blast. Right. You want to reach as many people as you can and not just people who happen to have read it and follow this. Through Twitter, I wouldn't have seen this come up. Yeah, I would because I got a thousand DMs the day it came out. I'm sure I'm sure. So just mentioned the C word. So right. Yeah, yeah. Quick rundown. They they're preparing for early access. Console has been another huge focus. That's number two. Number three is scaling. The company has challenges and they started as four people. And they're leveling them up and that they're saying that they hired a senior community manager that's starting very soon. And they're opening multiple roles focused on community and marketing. So hopefully we'll get more news out of them. They are saying that early access is still this year. With them hiring a senior community manager. What happened to Neburi? Because he was putting stuff out pretty regularly. Like when they first brought him on, he was like, bam, bam, bam. I was like, goddamn, Neburi is actually doing a pretty good job. And then he just kind of fell off. And then all of a sudden there, we see a job posting for a senior community manager and now they're hiring another one. Yeah. I missed Tiger Stripe to to be honest, like their original community manager. He was awesome. Yeah. But he had other things to do with Neburi and then making such a big deal of bringing on Neburi in that role. Why are you either hiring a middle manager to be between Neburi and the higher ups? Or are you hiring someone to replace Neburi? Like what? It just is a weird thing to be to create that situation for yourself. And without any anybody saying anything definitive, we're just kind of left to speculate, which is always a it's always a problem when we get to speculate. Well, and so the biggest thing is they said, keep out, keep an eye out for an early access trailer dropping in a week or so. Yeah. So that'll drop mid this coming week, maybe the end, which that'll be exciting. Assuming it gives a date. I would hate to see an early access trailer that's like coming soon. That's just generic. And I think that would piss a lot of people off. Yeah. I was mainly happy to see that they are still going to have early access this year, like some confirmation on that because I was really starting to have my doubts because it's I'm kind of worried that they are sticking to that data at this point. You think they should delay? I don't know what the game state is. So it's hard for me to say they should or shouldn't delay. But when you're running into so their trailer is going to drop the mid of mid middle of November, right? They're realistically not going to launch for at least a minimum of a week after until that trailer, but knowing them probably two or three weeks and put them into the first and second week of December, right? At that point, you're really pushing one. You're really pushing this year thing, which then makes me nervous of like, did you force something because you said this year when you're cutting it that close to the year? Right? Like at that point, I I wouldn't be happy with it. But if you delayed and the game is better for it. There's some understanding there. Yeah. I think cyberpunk is a prime example, right? Cyberpunk delayed and I always told you, well, it'll release when it's ready. It clearly did not do that. And then it was a big fiasco. So it just is a little to me, it's concerning that they're cutting it this close. And I realize overprime is also doing the same because they said early access would drop this year. Yes, we have the final beta test, which is kind of like an interim thing. And maybe they're going to use that as a yet. You guys had a lot of feedback. We are going to delay the next year, but it's hard to say because they've given us something definitive to use in the meantime. I go ahead. Oh, sorry. Well, I'm just going to comment because I think covetous lemon is kind of nailing what I was going to say. I think they're trying to capitalize on the player base on console. I think that before they go to early access, I think they're trying to make sure that they can go release on console at the same time. The player bases might be separate still, right? They might not be emerging necessarily for PC and console. But I think that that's my take on it is that I think that's their main focus. They know that there's a large amount of people who want to play, you know, Paragon again on console. And I think this is probably predecessors best opportunity because I don't know if overprime is really putting that much effort into it. We haven't really seen anything from them. So the fact that predecessors mentioning that that's a priority for them. That's what I'm getting. I feel like they're going to wait until they can get onto console before they go into into early access. Maybe, maybe that the thing too, though, is like predecessor of the last beta test that we played for them. The game felt fantastic. Like it felt like they could have gone early access straight out of that beta test, like as far as just game feel goes and like game feel animations that just crisp and clean game. I think predecessor takes the cake over Paragon, the overprime right now, just from the final beta test and looking at even even now overprime's final beta test and then in predecessors last beta test, comparing the two, I would still say that predecessor was the cleaner of the two. But I mean, clean, the clean, a clean game isn't everything. It's also got to be fun. I think overprime is definitely a whole hell of a lot of fun, even if they aren't at the same level of polish as predecessors. Well, and that comes back to as well with predecessor, that Kalari and Decker gameplay has shown us that really not much has changed about the game in the last eight months since their last test. Right. And so at what point is polish detrimental to you? Right. So overprime and this isn't. I'm not trying to answer the question one way or the other. This is just something for people to think about, right? Is is content better than polish or is polish better than content? Right. We saw with fault that they had neither and then couldn't decide which they were trying to push. And it was just a disaster all around, whereas overprime has had content, but is less polished. I wouldn't say it's unpolished. I just say less polished than predecessor. But predecessor has a lot of polish, but very little content from what we've seen in comparison to something like overprime. And so it's something to think about. Like, at what point do they need to make that switch to a content focused development over a polish focused development? I don't know. Also, Bearded's question, does overprime having a final test give them cushion for blowback if they delay? Absolutely. Yep. I was going to bring that up, too. I think that nails the head. And I think you kind of even alluded to that earlier in your point that I know for me as a player, I would much rather be like, Hey, we did this test. There's still lots of stuff that we, you know, we thought we were ready. But obviously you guys is the community, say otherwise. So we're going to push it back to that. We were putting out the best product. Easy, easy, easy. Like, I don't think there's really going to be anyone who's upset about that other than people who just want to play the game overall. Yeah. And I don't think that they, if overprime delayed, I don't think it would be very long. Yeah. Right. It's not going to be like the last time where they had to completely redesign a new map from scratch, effectively. Right. And then hopefully, excuse me, hopefully that plays well in works for the community, right? Theoretically, they're not going to have to do that this time around. And I'm sure we'll get into that more. But I think having a final test does prevent some blowback for a delay if they decide to do that. There are definitely problems with the real problems final test. And we'll get into that in the prime segment. But yeah, I don't know. It was just, again, good to see something out of them. Good to see the Middle East acknowledging it. I know a lot of people said this just feels like fault because fault would do the same thing. Not it would be silent forever and then put out an apology message will be better in the future is like before to fucking heard of that before. But I actually, I think that's a really good point. I think some people and, you know, we have to give predecessor an opportunity to still separate themselves from what we've been getting from fault, right? Like just because, you know, predecessor says these things and it sounds eerily similar to what we've experienced. I don't think it's fair for us to quite go to the point where we're you know, holding them to the expectations that we wanted from fault when this this isn't even out yet. They're still in early access and, you know, as devs, I mean, they might not be wanting to put out a lot of information yet. They're wanting to keep a lot of things still internal. So I did feel like it was a weird message overall. Like it just it just felt like, again, you said a lot and didn't actually say anything. Yeah. And so it was more of a disappointment that it's like, hey, we're we know we haven't said anything, but I'm also not saying anything now. It's like, OK, thanks, bro. But the console kids got really fired up, you know, which was fun to see on Twitter, especially like they were the comments were hilarious. I don't know. The post I made, everybody's like, this does fucks say shit. I'm like, yeah. Like, guys, I told you that if I heard anything console related, I would put it out so that it's so I did. I love when they get mad at you like it's your fault that there's not console information. You put out that there's some kind of console information that they're mad at you for not having to write a console information. Like, dude, see these console kids, man, they're just impossible to please. I don't know. It was good to see Fred addressing console, though, because people agree wants something just any kind of news for console. And I'm glad that they put something. Also, looking at it, I didn't realize I'd use the Faye footage. Predecessor Faye way better than overprime the Faye. I'll give you that to that right now. Much prefer playing Predecessors of the Faye. You haven't played her in offline yet. You should try it. She's fun. I'm saying that they need they need to fix harvest nettles. All right. OK. Listen, you're way more of a Faye player than I am. And so I trust you that you say that you know what you're talking about. But I played her in offline and oh, my God, she is hilariously fun. Very strong. Yeah. All right, you guys ready to move on for a pred? Yes, sir. Yeah. Let's get into a therial. So for a therial. All right, then. So we got a new skin for Noxus, and it's pretty fucking badass. And Jelly, you said that there's going to be skin effects with this skin. Correct. So this is a tier three skin, which means it's going to have some new animations, some updated visual effects or a major overhaul of the VFX, rather, and to match the theme of the skin. And for like a magician skin, right, the possibilities are almost limitless because for like the VFX updates and stuff like that, because you can do so much cool stuff with that concept. Right. Like we've talked internally about like her ultimate, where the the giant meteor comes out of the sky, right? What if it spawns like a hat overhead and a rabbit comes out of it and smashes the ground? Oh, yes. You could do cool stuff with. Yes. With this skin in particular and this theme of skin. So absolutely, it's going to be super exciting when it comes out. Like it's it's it's a cool skin. I can imagine her being being like cards like you. Yeah, like it's so many cool ideas could come from it for sure. Yes. I think my favorite thing is just the the color palette chosen as a whole. I think it's really fun and fresh. And again, given like the Noxus name to me sounds way more dark and kind of gritty. This is not that it's like way more fun and playful. So and having played Noxus, this skin is super cool. In my opinion, I think it's great. I can't wait to see the VFX. Hopefully you guys do something cool. Hint, hint, hint, hint that. Holy shit. That's how you know, Jelly hasn't been feeling right. He just took a step out of a coke. Not a Dr. Pepper. I don't know what it is, but you look horrified. I'm very surprised. I don't think I think of the skin. What do you guys think of jelly drinking coke, Dr. Pepper? That's what I want to know. Here's the big news right there. No, Noxus is an extremely fun hero to play. Probably I think she was the first one I played other than the Dante for the all Dante test that we did like way them way the fuck way back when. Yeah. Oh, when you guys played on the like the Aram map, right? Yeah, I remember that. That was a fun day. Actually, that was hilarious. But yeah, cool skin. Now, the tier three skins. What is it going to be just skill effects that separates a tier three from a tier two? And new animations and new animations. So tier two will have minor VFX changes. So maybe like coloration, something something that it's different, right? But it's not drastic. It's not necessarily the the VFX is completely different from the previous tier, but the tier threes are going to be pretty drastic changes to these abilities. Updated animations. So for for that, because they may cast. The same, but differently like it's it's trying to fit everything around the theme of the skin itself. OK, whereas tier twos and tier ones may just have slight nods to the theme. It may not be a such a complete change to that theme. Right on. I'm looking forward to. A lot of these skins, then it sounds like there's going to be old. I mean, because normally you just have a tier two skin is usually just a basic recolor, fairly. Usually, you know what I mean? Yeah, and for us, their recolors don't exist, right? So it's tier ones and twos are already complete model changes. Yeah, on top of and then tier threes are just the even more on top of that. And tier fours are a whole different beast that we have. Oh, you're going to say you're going all the way up to tier four with this. Oh, we're going to your fours. The hell it could be. If you if you want to find out about the first tier four, you got to be on Patreon, I guess. Look at this guy there. So, oh, holy shit. Can I say that is nuts? That's awesome. I like to hear that, though. All right, you guys got anything for else for a theory before we move into the big boy? I like the real. I like it after all that thing at all. All right, let's move on to Paragon, the overprime. So I was just flirting with you guys, you know, got the new hairdo flirting with you guys. Give us a chicken guy. So overprime, the final beta test has been extremely successful. They had over 30,000 players, which is double what they had for the last beta test the first day. It has been dropping. You expect some drop off, but not that much. Like the first day was 30,000. The second day was like 27,000 was the peak, and then it was 24,000. So it's not like a huge drop off. But, you know, that's great news, I think. Yeah, oh, absolutely. I think the biggest thing that we're I'm noticing with those dips, though, of like when they hit that high player time again, is that it's around the eastern morning afternoon is when that player peak is at its highest, right? That in the early mornings for us or the the afternoons for us is when you see the player base at its lowest. And then by the time that the eastern market is waking up or it's getting into the afternoon for them, it picks up and it's 20,000, 27,000, 25,000 all over again. Cover this limit. I did not notice that. I was reading that, too. The only thing I could think of is that maybe her wings speed up or something, but she rears back. It's like, yeah, she rears back a little bit and then zooms forward. But that's it. Like it's not. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. That's interesting. The skin for her, though, looks so good. The one that we've been using. The other one looks great. Hey, welcome back. OK. Hey, welcome back. OK. Geez. Geez. All right. All right. A little pause in the stream there, I guess. I don't know what the hell happened right there. I thought you two had froze and I was like, oh, wait a second. No, well, first I noticed Jelly because Jelly had this big, cheesy grin on his face where where his camera froze. And then I was like, oh, Jenna's froze, too. Oh, wait, no, that's me. I froze. Freaking hell. Anyway, it was not you guys chatting. It was Mangus. Oh, no, I was just going to say the face other skin or like her mid-tier skin is actually really cool as well. If you take a look at that. But all the attention, of course, gets focused on that purple and magenta skin. But anyway, with overprime, there are problems with it. And that's going to be probably the main discussion is what we would like to see improved with overprime. Bearden is talking shit. When you stream in the meth hills. We're the moonshine hills, not the meth. OK, yeah, we're the meth hills. They go hand in hand, I think these days, don't they? Kind of. That meth-flavored moonshine. Mangus, this is probably the most like off kilter stream for you with the technical. Oh, my God. Chat fucking with you. I don't know, man. Terrible. But anyway, OK, so what I wanted to say, though, is if you look around to see some of the the major old Paragon hats, you see a lot of criticism for overprime. But I think it's the wrong criticism. I 100 percent believe we should criticize the game. We should tell them what needs to be improved. But when I see like somebody being like, there's no leading phase because fucking portals. I'm like, OK, did you actually play the game because the portals don't even open until eight minutes in and matches last about 30 minutes? So and the leading phase is is about eight minutes. So like from what I've done, it's not even I've even seen it go longer some games, right? But if you're if you're on top of it, it'll between eight and ten minutes is when landing phase is over. And then you've got 15 to 20 minutes of the rest of the game, which is about standard for almost every other mobile under the sun. Yeah, right. Like so it's that. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah. So when people complain about portals being the problem for the leading phase, I just like, no, dude, like, hey, attention, hey, attention. It sounds like somebody who just watched a YouTube video. And so I'm going to use that's exactly what it is. Yeah, it's they agree. One person says it and then everybody else picks up that thread and runs with it instead of actually trying the game and figuring it out for themselves. But I'm. And then there are problems. I think my biggest problem is minions still don't seem to do much of anything. If you set up a slow push, like they don't even have to worry about it. Like there's been so many times I'm like, oh, there's an entire wave coming under my tower. I'm still going to rotate over and help fucking jelly out or help biking out or whatever. I do it for the gold more than anything. I like, oh, there's millions nearby me. Let me go get that gold. Minions aren't a resource that there are a resource that are not a a part of the game really. Yeah, they're not a win condition. Yeah, I think your thing is their pathing is weird, too. So it's low push that you can do. It still takes three or four times of actually setting that up and it crashing for it to mean anything. Yep. Yeah. So it's better in that you can set up a slow push, but it is still not better in that that slow push means practically zero. And that could be because there's an inhibitor, right? So it's it's slightly beefier in comparison because it's a very core objective, but it still just feels weird. Cyborg prototype minions are complete fodder, 100 percent agree. And Kat, the stream has not been going well. It's been an adventure. You got that part right. That that a covetous lemon brings up something else that we're probably going to get to, like the lame minions just fucking you just drill through them. But jungle minions are hard as fuck to kill. And that's all of that's prime spirit. That's all the jungle means prime spirit and the prime guardian, which. Oh, yeah, prime guardian, the biggest of those, for sure. I think so as a jungler, the jungle camps being super tanky at first is kind of annoying because it feels like you're taking a very long time to only get two or three camps. But in the concept of it keeping the laners out of my jungle, I have been so thankful for the tanky jungle minions. It's ridiculous because I'll see a laner go and start a jungle camp and I'll be like, you ain't taking that. You're going to take half health before you get that thing. So bye, get out of my jungle. That's my camp. Thank you very much. Literally along with the lines of that mean jelly, we're playing and do owed. And I was like, hey, I'm just going to dip in here and take a camp real quick, because I just I needed a little bit of gold to complete an item. And I knew that I would get it now. I'm sitting there like, fuck, man, this is going to take forever. He's like, yeah, how are you doing over there? Well, I'm just sitting there like beating this shit out of this camp. And I'm like, fuck, dude, he's not dying. And he's like, he's like, yeah, that's why you don't come into my jungle. You know, I was like, OK, jelly means these are my camps. These are my camps. Oh, dude, no, as a jungler, it's true. Big fan, big fan. Yeah. I do think that minions, they do still feel bad. That's probably other than like some some glitches and stuff like that that we've encountered. I think the minions is my probably my biggest complaint from a game play perspective. It just, yeah, they're there to give experience and gold. And their pathing is really fucking weird sometimes. Like you'll see him like go off. It looks like it's going off the map, like the way that it's pathing on the mini map. It's just really, really, really odd. Outside of that, the golden XP that you're getting feels good for the game pace that we're going at, where we didn't in the last test, because minions didn't give enough gold and they didn't give enough experience, especially when you were starting at level three. Now, I feel like I'm leveling up and gaining power appropriate to where we are in the game. If I'm at like, I don't know, like three or four full items, you know, at 30 minutes, I feel like that's pretty successful, right? Full build at 45, that's pretty successful, right? Like I also think it matters a lot if you have a jungler who understands the current strength of the neutral camps and spirit and mini prime. I don't want to give away too many strats, right? Because we got a tournament coming up, you know, so I don't want to give away. But I think that's a big part of why jungle also feels a little weird and why laning phase can feel weird is if that stuff isn't being paid attention to because we noticed that. And I think in our last game that we just played, we didn't have a jungler who prioritized getting those neutral objectives. So getting down those extra because minions are so weak, you can't really push down a tower fast enough with a wave that's under there, even with four or five people, if they're contesting you. It's just too hard. You know, the minions aren't strong enough. Part of that comes down to the execute mechanic on minions as well. Maybe that execute mechanic means that clearing waves past 15 minutes is instantaneous for pretty much everybody. Yeah. And that also comes down to certain items, right? Like the melee item that lets you cleave, and it does a shockwave back behind it is insane for clearing waves and almost every melee character builds it. Yeah. And so it's like, what it goes off to. Oh, it's incredible. I think the biggest thing is they it needs to take longer to heal in the fountain when you back, that there's no punishment for backing almost. If you're even half playing the lane correctly, you can take no punishment for backing because you have to heal and get back to lane so fast, especially mid lane, that there's no, it's too fast for you to be at no health and then full health, basically two or three seconds after you back. Yep. Right. If that fountain took a little bit longer, it would delay there to return to lane a couple more seconds, which would make it more important of when you back versus when you should or let the enemy laner take opportunity because it's going to take you that extra couple of seconds. And I think that would solve another problem. They have is another complaint is people complain that there's too many ganks. It's like too much of a team fight meta. It's because mid lane has zero excuse not to rotate. Mm hmm. Like, I don't really give a shit if there's a wave of minions. I'm going to I'm going to rotate like. Go help get a kill. Yeah, no, you're not. I think you're 100 percent right on that because I find myself fighting the urge to rotate because I'm like, oh, I have farm because I'm so used to games like League of Legends where it's more valuable for you to stay in lane and collect to the gold than it is to rotate and get kills. But with the current version of this, the game, it's better to go and put pressure so that way you can get your duo lane moving up or you can get your off lane moving up or whatever. And I think that also ties into why we're seeing so many 80 carries in off lane roles is because it's so free to just sit there, farm, poke the other guy out. That's a melee range back when you take a bad fight and then come right back in a lane and repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, because there's no punishment almost at all, unless you get hard ganked and you're just being hard focused like me and jelly do to guys who want to bring squishy off laners. Really? Yeah, that's a bit of a problem, too. You're healing the fountain. I think solves a lot of problems in the laning phase of the game. Yeah. And even later on, but but especially laning phase. I speak in a neurone. I just I just liked your controller video low for people that want to use the controllers. So that's the other thing a lot of people have a problem with is the ADCs are running rampant and whatever lane they want to. Yep. That was a problem in predecessor. It's definitely a problem in overprime. I don't know how to counter that without making ADCs too weak. Like that's that's a rough one, I think. So a league had the same issue for a while. It's I think it's difficult in general. Whenever you have the opportunity for arranged physical damage, you know, carry to go into a lane and just beat up on a melee. It's going to take place. So I think what League does is they they lower like your opportunity for outplay in those things. Like you have to it's really difficult. I think what you're right because it's very hard to balance around that. And especially with very few champions currently, I think once we get more off laners, it more people get more comfortable with off laners that kind of because I've seen it where like a really good melee off laner who knows how to use their cooldowns and knows the you know the way that in which they can get in, fuck up a squishy off laner and then get out. That's really important. But also you need to have a jungler that understands that you're in a tougher match up and either come and help you or really make something work on the other end. So that way you can counteract the the the benefits that that guy's going to get. But we're going way down into strategy at this point. But I definitely think carries carries in general feel really, really strong. And that's why I think a lot of people are just outright banning them. I mean, you know, Wraith is getting banned all the time. Murdoch is getting banned all the time. You know, Twin Blast is getting banned. The only one I think just flies off the radar is poor Sparrow. She's just like for somebody that whatever thinks that she's good and she is very strong. Yeah. I think Abdullah Alashan. I fucked that up. They need to increase minions aggro range and damage. I think that would probably help because, you know, that that ADC poking you isn't going to poke you so hard if all of your minions start beating the dog shit out of him. So that that might help. Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing. And we were talking about this a lot earlier today, Mangoose, about is the end game kind of stalls out because the prime guardian is practically impossible to take after a certain point in the game. Yeah, take safely, I should say. When you're at 40 minutes into the game, that prime guardian, if you if your team initiates on the prime guardian, even after you get one or two picks, it's still highly likely you're going to lose it or you're going to get pushed off of it because either the enemy team is going to respawn and show up before you can take it out. Or the enemy team is just going to show up in there and you've taken so much damage from it and put all your resources into it. You have no mana left. You have no health left. And they're just going to show up, push you off of it and either reset it or taking themselves afterwards. It's it's almost a objective that if you start it, you're the loser in the situation, nine times out of 10. Yeah, you really have to have gotten the required objective to end the game. Yeah. And I was saying that to you today, Jalei, I was like, I call it the throw pit because as soon as somebody goes in for prime and like, God damn it, why are we going into the throw pit? I guess we're just going to fucking give them the game now. Like you usually wouldn't feel that when the entire enemy team is dead and you rotate the prime. But it's like, you know, they're all going to show up one time and somebody's like a cheeky howitzer missile is going to steal it or some shit. Like they they could change it that way to like make it the orb drops on the ground and somebody has to pick it up. Again, like maybe not dunk it because they've gotten rid of dunking, but like the same with the Prime Spirit Guardian. Yeah, if that was just an orb that dropped on the ground, is somebody had to pick it up. Yeah, I think that would be great. I think for me, it's that the pit is too small for the the the size of the objective. It is so easy with some of these ranged characters to just poke the fuck out of whoever's down in there. And they're taking a lot of damage and you just add to me. It's just like, yeah, exactly that. It can can be a coin flip. Like we had it happen where we killed the jungler. All right, that should be our go button on getting the end game up. He came back because we took so it took so long to kill it. And it was so hard to team fight around the four that were still left because they're just poking in the shit out of our, you know, our team. Jungler is coming back and now it's a smite 50 50. And you hope that your ping is slightly better than his ping or something. You know what I mean, or that you don't get CC to throw it. That's probably one of the worst feelings. I think the early game is great for me. I think anything before that 20 minute mark is awesome. It's that 20 minute mark and beyond where the game starts to feel really bad. So it's like, if you're not in a firm lead by 20 minutes where you've got like most of the outers, if not all the outers out, you've already put some pressure, maybe even on to the inhibs. Games will stall out or they'll be very difficult if you, especially if they have somebody who can hyper carry. It'll get even worse. So they definitely need to take a look at that. That's probably one of their biggest glaring spots. So Kat is perfect. Prime's health is way too high for what the respawn timer is. If you do team, do a team wipe, go to prime. They're already back and you finally got half health prime. Yep. And then you have to make the decision of do we with that sunk cost of we've already put half the damage into this thing. Do we just get out and hope that we win this or do we fight them off of it? Do we just retreat and reset? Like it's, and there's almost no good decision to be made in those situations. Mm hmm. It just, well, if split pushing, if split pushing was a more viable thing, then you could get away with that, right? Okay. So you guys are going to try and show up to go do. I'm going to split push it. I'm going to take down one of your inhibs or whatever. But because minions are so weak, you can, and so it takes forever to get them pushed up far enough. And you're only going to get maybe one or two waves because they're not moving fast enough. You're, you're not going to be. It's, it's very hard. So I think two things that would help the game end without prime being a prime objective that you need to take is minions, movement speed needs to scale up over game time. Yeah. Because the amount of time that you're late game, you're, you push the wave all the way up to their tower and then you look back and your minions are halfway down the lane. And you just kind of sit and twill your thumbs for 30 seconds waiting for those minions to show up. It happens so often. We were proxying that wave. Remember, we got two enemy waves before our wave came up to us. Like, and by the time the enemy wave came up to us, they had to all rotate it to where we were. And it was the loss. It was a sunk cost policy at that point. We just like, well, we just wasted our fucking time. Stupid. Yeah. And the, when you take an inhibitor, that siege or that super minion or super tea on rather needs to be way stronger than it is because those lanes, they push toward the enemy, but it's minuscule by itself. That is just, you're just kind of like, yeah, that to me, that lane is something I can ignore for two minutes. It's not going to do anything, but it's not going to push against me until that respawn timer comes up. And I think that feels terrible because those, for how much effort has to go into getting those inhibitors half the time. The lane not fully pushing toward the enemy team. It just, meh, it just feels awful. I want to speak to David Reese's comment as he says, so you're saying that you cannot snowball. I get what you're saying there. Like prime mechanic is a bit of a snowballing mechanic, but you should feel rewarded for playing well and punished for playing poorly. And right now you're rewarded for playing poorly and punished for playing well. Like it, it's flip flopped. It's starting on his head a little bit. It almost feels like the enemy team going for prime is a catchback mechanic where you as the losing team can go there and maybe catch back up by either wiping them in the pit or stealing the buff. That's a feels bad for the team who's been doing all essentially all the right things up until that point. I do want to highlight though, like talking about prime, the pre 20 minute mini primes. Awesome concept. I know it's basically a stolen thing from League of Legends with their mechanic. But I love it. I know I forgot the word abuse the shit out of those things. Yeah, but I think that's intended, right? Because you do get you get two of them, right? You do it in League too. You get two of them. You're timing. Yeah, if you do it the right timing, you can get two. And I think that there's there's so much strength and power in those, but so many junglers don't know about it or they don't think about it or they're not getting the support from their laner. So they feel like they have to be all over the map ganking everybody. And but yeah, I think really and those are just right. The ones in the lane are just right. They deal a bunch of damage to the tower up front, but then they get melted pretty easy. And if somebody positions it poorly and the enemy team is like responding to it, they can melt it before it ever hits the tower. Like I think those things are balanced perfectly. I completely agree. I think they're really strong when used well, but they can be also super weak if used incorrectly. Yep. Right. And that's I think perfect. I think the strongest thing about them that I'm not sure I think would be OK to remove is the fact that if you don't even say it, no, no, no, no, don't even put this out into the universe. I don't want to know. I love that mechanic. If you if you speak it into existence, I think we're thinking the same thing and I want him to speak it into existence. Oh, I'm going to be so mad, bro. If they take that out because it's so so if you spawn, you press the button, you pick a location, you spawn the mini prime, as we've been calling it. It pushes everything away from the center of where it's spawned from. And everything heroes. Yes. And there have been several, several, several times that I've dropped it behind an enemy hero, push them out of tower range because of the pushback. And then we just jump on them and murder them out of tower range. And then we also take the tower because now mini prime is on the tower. Like it is busted that you can push enemy heroes with it. So I was thinking something different. Enemy heroes is a bit much. We had Narbash yesterday. I did it to him both times. He was under tower. I dropped it behind him, knocked him out of tower range and we blew him up the second he got out of tower range. I know Raven dropped it on somebody in a team fight and killed him just with the damage of the mini prime spawn. Yeah, the damage on it dropping is insane too. So that is the part I would say I'm okay with removing is that when you drop it, that it does damage to enemy champions. At that, the pushback or the displacement, I think that's fine because you are choosing to try and defend the turret, despite that knowing what it is. The first time you caught that guy, you know, he could sit there and go, ah, well, I got fucked. I didn't know that it did that. Second time, you should have learned better, bud. You're fucking Narbash. What are you going to do? Hold this tower back with your belly. Come on, bro. I mean, I think it was so great. The rear is not bad. I can't wait to see. Yes. So somebody said somewhere in the comments that Narbash is a good support. I played my first Narbash support game today, built in full fucking tank and they just couldn't touch me. So I'm not going to give everything away because I still think there's value in a lot of the things we've done with mini prime, but sophisticated carrot. There are a lot of mechanics of that mini prime that people do not abuse and use correctly. I just, I promise you, like there are so many things. One thing I do it, I'm always surprising people because they're like, I didn't know it could do that. Yes, it can. Like one thing I think they should change is I think if you get killed while you're holding that buff, it should drop and whoever killed you gets the buff and then they go get the drop it. Just like any other buff. If you drop that, if you get killed with that buff on you, it should go to whoever killed you. I was very surprised. Like in that faying game, that first faying game that I posted, I dropped it mid team fight because I thought that if they killed me, they were going to get it. So I took the risk to drop it before I died. I didn't die with you because of the investment in taking it. I would say that I took prime spirit and they killed me and they suddenly took my prime spirit buff away. I'd be pissed because that I put so much into that for them to show up afterwards and just be like, Oh, thank you would feel terrible. The red and blue buff I don't put nearly the same amount of effort into them to getting it when I die is what it is. I agree. I don't think that they should get the buff. I could be I would be OK with not losing it, but maybe it like if you die, it takes a chunk of the time that you have to use it off or something like that because then it's it's forcing your hand and don't be in a bad spot and get killed or whatever. Like, you know what I mean? It's going to now you have to you were waiting for the perfect opportune time. Now you've got to expedite that. I could see that being beneficial and a cost fallacy for the, you know, just running around with it, trying to run right up to a target and drop it before somebody kills you, you know. I don't know. I could see something to kind of even it out because it's really fucking strong in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it. Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, if you're playing with it right and your team is doing the right things, you can take an inhibitor before 20 minutes with both of them without question. Yep. Yep. I think that maybe there's also because like in league, right, when you use it, it takes up your as the jungler or whoever picks it up, it takes up your your ward slot. Since we don't have ward slots in this game, I was going to say, there's something you could probably work with on that to kind of because right now you just get another button to press that you don't have normally to use it. So if there was like a maybe a slight reduce in your ability to do other things, I just don't know what that would be. But anyway, oh, cool mechanic, which is why I said that 20 before 20 minutes, the game feels amazing because of all those things. Laning phase is like Jellie said, about eight to 10 minutes, maybe a little bit longer, depending on how even and back and forth it's been going. But if you get those neutral objectives, it's great. And I think the team fighting even pre 20 minutes is awesome. Like it's it's a lot of fun, super engaging. Cause I think when we talked about this before, we were worried that having to start at level one again was going to really like feel bad going into the game and it's not going to feel as fast paced as we liked it and feeling more engaging in that regard. I haven't really noticed it being that big of a deal. I feel like I'm getting to power at a decent rate. And unless I'm just, you know, being really bad at the game, which does happen, but. I like cat's way of balancing. You can't sprint until you poop it out. I don't know why that may be a gaggle, but I like I like that mechanic. Actually, that's a good, that's a good bet. I think so. Yeah, maybe because too fucking heavy, man. You're carrying a mini prime with you. Yeah, you're in Cumbered or something like that. Big chunk is on your back. I think that's actually a really, really good idea. Um, let's move on to some other problems. Bugs, I've encountered more bugs in this beta test, I think, than the last beta test. Yep. I'm getting in. I get I get mountable walls. I do you think it was watching me. And I was like, he's like, you got to. Oh, when you were in the bay. Dude, I was trying to get away from a gank chat. Dude, listen to this. I was trying to get away from a gank. And Mangus is watching me through, because he was dead. He was watching me through the camera. And he's like, dude, go, go. And I was, I was trying. I'm literally jumping. And there's like the tiniest little curb going into the portal. And it might, for whatever reason, my foot would just not go over it. I was full jumping and not being able to go forward. And it happens all the time. I was walking out of base and it happened. I'm like, it just encountered a new movable wall, apparently I was like, what is this? Yeah, no, that's fucking stupid. That can't stay. That can't, that can't be in the game. That needs to, because that's just fucking no. I've heard several people say they've had a reload bug on Revenant. Yeah, Revenant's really broken. Yeah. I had that bug on Gideon where I kept getting locked into his ease, the view for his E, like the like zoomed out view and. The wall stuck. See ice wall. Yeah, dude, I was jelly. Didn't know what I was talking about. But dude, you can get stuck inside of the wall. Oh, it's like full on hard CC. Or if you're mean playing as a war, you try to really needs against the wall. Anyone can get stuck in the wall. So you just get screwed over one way or the other. Jelly doesn't want me to play a war anymore. I trapped him about like four or five times when he was playing. We were playing and he was in the. I got him with my wall like, I don't know how many times he was so pissed. He's like, what does he do? He cuts me off so he can go after them better. It's great. Thank you. Like, um, I was when you're fire froming them. I watched taboo last night on Aurora. He tried to use the ice wall to go up into lane through one of the small arches. And he got stuck between his ice wall and the in the top of his head at the arch. He was just stuck there taking damage. I like just I was like, just reactivated. It'll drop. How he's ultimate will sometimes put you into weird spots on the map. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. Or or you'll go up. You're aiming past the wall, but you're a whole old just gets eaten by the wall anyway. It's just like, nope, it sucks to suck. I had to happen with me on the Fae, too. When I went to drop my thing, it just for some reason went up into the into the universe. It was fucking, yeah, it brings up another one. I've seen a hundred percent crit chance on rev isn't one hundred percent. Like, you know, every single time. Yep. I saw that one, too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. In general. Not not just bugs, but let's move on to like actual problems with the game, because red clown kind of brought it up, which is something we've been bitching about forever is attacking from the bushes doesn't reveal you. And that is just a huge frickin problem. I still hate it. They did a good job about adding like a pretty good animation when you're walking around. You can spot them moving around. Love that huge fucking fan of that. But if I fire, I should be big, normal sized, me or or at least an outline, something that showcases my memory outline of you and the bush that you get when you're standing yourself. But it would be enough because I should. I have an indication of where they're shooting me from. I feel like if I hit you, it should also reveal you a little bit. Not, you know, it's not like a full reveal, like you're now just seen in it. But like, if I hit you, it gives you the outline and then I can watch you move around. But yeah, that's probably one of the most frustrating things that they didn't change from the last test. And what in the actual fuck is up with that wall in the middle of the lane? The one the wall. Yeah, the one way wall in mid lane. Yeah. Why is there one? Why is there a one way wall in mid lane, though? I think it's really stupid. I think it's a way that they don't want people coming and sitting behind the mid laners when they're pushed up. But you can go a different way to get there. Like, it just it doesn't make a lot of sense. And I've seen so many people intuitively think that they can get away that way. And then you just get stuck that they're just screwed. Like, it just it's really sad to watch. It's great when I'm like chasing them down. They're heading that way. And they're like, can't go that way. Like the first time you learn it, it's really rough. Right. I think what they could do because I actually think it's it's fine as a thing. They just need to make it way more clear that you as the enemy cannot go through that wall. And I think it's the same for the walls that that are in the jungle that you're not allowed to pass through that. They just need to have a better way of indicating because they look very similar to all the other walls that we encounter in the game. And so your mind is just not intuitively going to know I can't walk through this one because it's theirs. Like, I think so in mid lane, the they have two little like dark shrouded ones that you can you can that anyone can pass through that are obstructing, obstructing vision into the jungle. Correct. You made those the impassable wall texture and flips just the normal basic shimmery one that's already there for those mid lane ones. I think it'd be a lot more clear that you can't go through these ones and you can go through the other ones. Yeah, I agree. Because the reason why I like it is I think it's safe. It's a safe. It's a safe path for people to come into mid lane that are on your that are allies and a very because before and that you could get ganked from those those moon wells that are above, you know, from the enemy. And now to be able to do that, it's a way riskier because you have to walk into lane to be to be able to go in there and go up into that well. I would also be OK if they just took it out. They're just like, you know what, we don't need this because I don't know when I only ever use it like and it almost always just fucks me, you know, like we're all trying to use it to gank somebody. And then I just end up dying right there in front because it's it's there's as soon as you come out of that wall, there's more walls right there in front of you. So it's just you're kind of just stuck there. So it's like a weird, it's a weird thing to do. Yeah, it doesn't need to be there. But I don't hate the one way wall that blocks you. I know you guys don't like that, but I don't hate that. I just wish it was more clear that, hey, if I see this wall, I can't walk fucking through it. Yeah, like sophisticated carousel. Just make it red, make it red. That's fine. That's fine. It says I did call taboo out for getting stuck in an archway with the ice wall. We'll say he had some amazing Aurora cutoffs. Like people tried to get away and he would cut them off of those ice walls. But I did, too. I just also happened to cut off my jungler. I had some great cutoffs. Um, against jelly knees. I we're going to get into this eventually balance. I think right off the top of my head, Gadget and FaZe are both fucking monsters. Like, and FaZe was last test, too. And it feels like she's worse. I think people just learned how to play her since last test. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, Gadget, Gadget has to know outplay potential. She knows the mines just appear. Yep. You they are they travel, but it's almost like hit scan travel. Like it's at that point where you're like, you see it come out of her hand. There's this like blur on your screen as it suddenly is that it's a final location. So that needs to take way longer to travel or needs to be way more obvious when she's casting. She needs to have some kind of like windup animation, something. And then her ultimate is long curse. I think somebody mentioned it earlier is the stacking items. You get these stacking items, the stack on hit every time they hit. Yep. I think a big part of the problem, too, it goes back to what we were talking about with the how quick you can get back into lane. It's so especially for somebody like her, she can get back into mid lane. She can burn through all of her mana to chunk you out or get kills. Recall come back before you've had a chance to push the wave. She just unless you full on commit and kill her, she is going to win laning phase. She's going to scale indefinitely. And she's just going to fuck over every time you try and do a teamfight because she just does so much fucking AOE damage. It's it's actually insane. And you don't even have to be good on her. You don't need to be good. You know, you don't just throw your ability somewhat in the direction of enemy person in front of you. And you're going to half chunk them. It's stupid for anybody out there that's having trouble laning against Gadget. I'll tell you two ways, two ways to counter. One way is to try and stay in your minion wave and hope to God. I think Jelly brought this up. Hope to God that the mind sticks on a minion and not you and then run out of it. That's about one of the only ways you can avoid the gadget mind. The other way that I discovered, though, is Countess. It's rough because, like we said, phase and gadget are probably the top two overpower ones. They're definitely the top two mid laners in the game right now. Countess counters the dog shit out of Gadget because you get the mind on your head when it's about to explode, you shadow slip to her that amunes the damage and then you drop your fucking kid on her shadow slip back while she tries to throw her stupid so you can destroy down and you can just own Gadget with her. The problem is if they pick phase instead, you're screwed as Countess because phase wrecks Countess hardcore because I mean, phase just kind of wrecks everybody hardcore. The other gadget counter that I found out accidentally because I didn't select somebody. So it gave me Sarath mid is Sarath. And I realized me saying I played Sarath, but you can do the same thing with her Q. You just negate you and vulnerable yourself the second it pops. And then you get away from that damage, but it's still annoying as hell. Yeah, I think she's probably the most overpowered. I do still think because we had it happen where phase can be countered. She is very strong, though, and she can be viable in a lot of lanes. I actually think that the carries are also really, really strong this time. I knew what carries are too strong early for how strong they are late. Yes. I think that's their biggest issue is they're not weak enough early. They're not carries early where they their damage is weighted because they are so strongly game that their early game is kind of meh. And then there are some stronger carries than others. Right, Murdoch, for example, so strong. But their level one is still way stronger than it should be because even there's a ton of things you can't do against carries just because they're so strong early game. And you think it was a prime example and they go like awfully and you think we'll just gank them or just if you're on melee, just jump on them. He just buckshot you back and then fucking starts laying into you again. Yeah, that buckshot cool. That needs to go way up. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think it's 20 seconds, level one. Something like that. And twin blast dash range. Like if you jump with twin flash and then dash, you go for fucking ever. Yeah. And you still get the grenade reset, which is also pretty nice. Yeah. And yeah. Like his dash used to be just there to avoid abilities pretty much. It wasn't a movement ability. It was there to avoid abilities. Now it's just straight up full on movement. And I think if you made carries weaker, that would solve the carries off lane problem a lot easier. Yeah. Because it would make it much more of a trade off of if I'm on Fengmau off lane, I will now dominate you as a carry off lane because I will just teleport in your face and just go to town because you can't do enough early against me. Whereas right now, like a Murdoch off lane against Fengmau, there's so little you can do because he'll level one just Q spam you until you have your force out of lane. And then he'll just build that lead constantly on against you. I've done it. It's easy. Yeah. But the only thing you can do is dive on him after he uses his Q and then use your shield to immune the buckshot. I think part of this, too, is going back to that the current amount of characters that are available, especially the Meleys struggle unless they're playing jungle, at least in my opinion. I think that the jungles, they do fine. They get their farm, they're able to get experience, they do ganks. Like, you know, they get to pick and choose, essentially, when they're going to engage with people. The melee off laners are really having a hard time. And I think even like Narbash can have a hard time, if not operated well, because of the range supports doing and the ranged carries doing so much more than what a Narbash can survive long enough in to not to get to that late game part where Narbash just becomes Narbash who's amazing. And you know what I mean? But so I think that's part of it is it's like, we're just lacking in, I think, the strength of the melee characters to be able to handle the amount that the range are able to do. And it's, I don't know what they're going to, maybe when they add in more people or more characters, it'll start to even out across the board. But I just feel like right now I can't think of a really strong, maybe thing now as it may be about it that's like really overpowered in the off lane. But even he's going to struggle against some of the ranged off laners that can come out there. You know, like a wraith, like a really good wraith is going to demolish a thing now. Like they're just never going to get to play the game. Something that needs to happen to balance Wraith out and it's not even a change on Wraith or his numbers is if you've been re, if you're in the process of being rewound, there needs to be an effect on your screen that lets you know it's coming. Yeah, other than seeing your trail of yourself somehow. If you happen to see it, but if you're running forward, he rewinds you, you have no idea until suddenly it feels like a rubber band where you're just like, oh, okay, I am no longer where I used to be. If there was even just a light outline on my screen that gave you the indication of like, okay, I'm about to be rewound. Gives me the opportunity to counterplay that because at the moment there just is none. He presses the button on you. And unless your thing now who used his Q, there's not a lot for you to do about it. We were talking about that. Is he rewind? I didn't know that. And that's crazy. You rewind in stasis. Yeah. Wow. We were talking about that, um, that Narbash fight where I took on the Wraith earlier. And I mean, you guys were watching that fight. I started my ultimate because I was like on top of him. And then I got rewound. I had zero idea that he had hit me with rewind. So unfortunately it was kind of a, well, it wasn't a wasted ultimate because I killed the motherfucker. But like that's, that kind of got very poorly. The Wraith war doesn't show on the mini map. Yep. So I, we said this last time and we were really excited about this going into this test. I think itemization still sucks. Really? Yes. 100%. Interesting. Yeah. Because these same items on the same type of characters across the board. I think that's more because people don't know they're not going to experiment. They're just going to do whatever the recommended build is. Even the best players, even the best players are playing the exact same builds. Interesting. The recommended items are also terrible. I think across the board, the recommended items are awful for most of these characters. If you've never played the character though, still use the recommended. Don't be sitting in the fucking thing waiting to figure out what item you're going to buy. Just buy the recommended and go back. So for Kalari, for instance, they've got Kalari going a bruiser build. She's supposed to be an assassin there, but there are no assassin items for physical damage characters. Oh, she has no choice. She either goes crit for damage or she goes bruiser. Those are her options. When you're a carry, your options are crit. When you are a... I still disagree with you there, but I know that's how you feel about it. I disagree with you on that with the carries, but it's okay. When you don't go crit, you lose. Like, that's... I don't know. Turning yourself into a bruiser effectively. And there are bruisers that do what you're trying to do better. I still think that there's space for some of the carries to go attack speed and just attack power and not necessarily having to worry about going crit. I do think that there's value in going crit, for sure, if you want guaranteed upfront damage, but there's... There's not enough items for that. They can't do a build that doesn't have crit. Carries cannot. They may not have... They may have less crit than other ones, but there are not enough items for crit-tiver-carries to go full attack speed without building crit at the same time. Well, I don't know what the crit damage modifier is, but it seems high. Yeah, I think it's 2.5. Yeah, it really seems like you're throwing if you don't go crit as an ADC. Like, the... I agree with that one too. The tank items are actually bonkers. There's that item... You got a bot, yeah. Yeah, goddammit. Tweet. Yeah. The tank items... Especially in Carrot, I believe, I agree with you. Being able to build your own item deck would be great. Go ahead and do it. The Zinx Claw Barrier, or whatever it's called, is... I think it's Zinx Claw Barrier. Sure. But Zinx Barrier, whatever it is, reflects 25% of all damage you receive, period. Doesn't matter if it's physical damage, doesn't matter if it's magical damage. You got Healing Nanobots, which is 800 health, restore 3% of your max health every second when out of combat. A very strong item on tanks, right? Rampage. I think Rampage feels the best with the tank items. He is so fucking annoying if he builds tank. And there's not enough penetration items for physical damage characters to deal with that 90% of the time. Right? Even... We played that game where I was on Sparrow, and I can shred tanks. I was shredding those tanks, but it still was taking me a long time. Yeah. And that was with full itemization against them. And it just... There's not enough to deal with tanks in this game, evident by how strong Feng Mao becomes. Feng Mao is unstoppable, post 3 items, 90% of the time. That he can just walk in there, he'll negate any abilities with his Q because he gets a shield, and he negates the actual ability itself on the first ability that hits him for it. He's got insane sustain, he's got an execute, he's got a slow, he's got a dash. He's just unstoppable with the right itemization behind him. Fred Anderson, he says, fault in predecessors, item systems are so much better. I think faults was, I think predecessors is a little bit better. Had a little bit better itemization, but yeah, they have pretty much the same problem. But it is... I would say it's probably a touch better. It depends. I think for mages, I don't know why they love mages so much in OverPrime, but the mage item selection is massive. Like, you can build all kinds of crazy shit as a mage. And like, you can do all kinds of crazy builds as a mage. You can do basic attack builds, you can do nuke builds, you can do penetration builds, you can do lifesteal builds. The last test, too, is that the mages were favored in itemization. And there's a lot more options than there were in the previous test compared for physical damage characters, but there's still not many options. And we argue that... Kalari is forced to be an auto attack assassin in OverPrime. And it would not be her kit is designed to be an auto attack assassin in OverPrime. Let me ask you this then. Do you feel like the itemization changes because there was quite a bit added in compared to last, are heading in the right direction then? Oh, absolutely. Okay, because I think... I think there's more itemization. I still don't think there's enough itemization. That's fair. I think I agree with that statement more than the one you said before. I think that there are opportunities for creative itemization, but because some champions are super strong, it makes it feel like I think you have to go a certain build consistently. I also still think that money is also kind of a problem. Like, some of those... The better items cost a lot of fucking money, and the components that you buy to build up to that big item are not nearly as valuable. Like, there's one... I think it's a negative carry one, where you're getting like... The items are like five attack power, but when you level it up to the next thing, it's like 45. So it's like... The components are garbage, but you have to build them to be able to get to the next tier that's way better. The one thing I will say going with items though is the starter items are very underrated, except for the junglers, which has AP for some reason, which is really weird, but I think the starter items are... People are not leveling them up fast enough. I know I wasn't when we first started, but dude, all of those, the fully built are absolutely legendary items in their own right, plus you get the cooldown reduction on the flash or the dash, and I think they're so strong in people. I can't tell you how many times we've gotten into the endgame screen, and people are still on the level one fucking laning item, and I'm just like... It's broken. Yeah, and so I'll iterate on the jungle, and the jungle item is not worth upgrading ever, basically, period. Don't you get more smite for coming up? Oh, it's the same. You literally get no benefits other than the stats that it gives you for leveling up the item. And the stats it gives you are counterintuitive, and they're a waste of gold. You get more rewards for the support one. If you're playing a physical damage character, you gain now magic damage because it's built into the jungle item and you have no choice on the matter, right, which is just a waste of gold for you. But even though, yeah, you probably have a magic damage scaling ability because most everybody has at least one. It's still like Kalari, it's her dash. I'm not trying to do damage with my dash. Like what, why? So they need to have separate jungle items and tank junglers, especially. I think part of the reason you see these bruiser brawler junglers right now is that the item is built for them. And the itemization currently in general is built for them. Bruisers and tanks have a huge advantage. Tanks in the jungle suffer because they don't have a jungle item that benefits them. So they just keep the basic smite because they're not trying to build damage, so they just build a tank item instead. I also don't like. Just build bruiser items because they're just better. Like there's just no reason. There are more times I think about selling my smite and getting another full-fledged item that will give me more benefit more often than having the smite roll. Especially because Prime normally is just a crapshoot of damage. The smite really doesn't matter a ton of times when you're, you either are getting the objective or you're going to turn it into a teamfight and you need whatever this item is more. I can see that. I think the support item also needs to be looked at because it's a bit of a bummer. Like for example, if you're Narbash and you're going in with the support item, you're not getting a health or tank support item. You're getting an AP support item. And you get the wards, which you want. You want the wards, but I would love for there to be a, you know, tank version of this or whatever. And not just a, you know, this was made for Muriel because she does AP damage and doesn't need to be tanky. She's just going to do damage with her. You know, I, so that was another thing that bunged me out was that the support item is really just for meages. It's not really for, I mean, Narbash does do damage with his Q, but you probably want him to be more of a tank than you want him to be, you know what I mean? But, or you could, I should say you could go tank or if you wanted to take a rampage off lane, right? You're not looking to do AP damage with rampage. You want them to, or not off lane, I'm sorry, support. I don't know. Very strong, by the way, rampage support still even though the item isn't good. I want to make a disclaimer real quick. Please. We're pointing out a lot of things that we find wrong with the game we would like to see improved. But I think all three of us have had a fucking fantastic time playing the game. Like the game is fucking fun. Does it have its problems? Yes, of course it's got its problems. Every fucking game has got its problems. But holy shit, have we been having fun. But I think we can have more fun if they fix those goddamn bushes. I agree. I think the part of the reason why I'm so excited and passionate about complaining about it is two-fold. One, because I've been having such a fun time that those things that don't feel good feel really bad in comparison to how much fun I'm having. The second thing is, is they take feedback really well. And so I'm really, really excited to see at the end of this test when they compile all that information that we're all as players going to be presenting them. Especially across 25,000 people. Dude, we had insane amounts of player feedback when it was like 10,000 people max. Now we're up to 30,000, 25,000 consistently and over 20,000 consistently. And that goes back to what I said weeks and weeks and weeks ago about in order to be in contention as a 3D MOBA in this space, you need to be putting up smite numbers. And guess, this is fucking smite numbers right here, baby. And I'm very, very excited. I love it. And we haven't even really touched on it much. I think the ranked mode is a success overall. Not perfect, but a success overall. I like the concepts that are there. I can't wait to see how they kind of fine tune things and get a little bit more nuanced. Really, really cool system. Sorry, that's my... Yeah, I've played a lot of ranked myself because it's limited to two and I'm usually playing with either both of you or I'm playing with Raven and his crew or then I'm gonna start streaming this week. So I'll be playing with subs and shit. So I probably won't play that much ranked to tell the truth. So smite on Steam just real quick has a all-time peak of 31,000 players over the last two years. No shit. That happened two years ago, rather. So that doesn't count for console. And I know... Oh, okay. I was about to say. That's just on Steam. But 31,000, they put up those numbers the first day. Yeah, that's huge. That is absolutely... And we don't have epics numbers either. We're still... Yeah, we don't have epics numbers. Yeah. Yeah, this is just Steam. Yep. Kind of... I'm sure they'll release the numbers like they did last time. So we'll probably have a better picture of what they actually had once we get the Epic Games numbers included in there. That's even more exciting now. I didn't even think of that till just now as we're not even looking at the Epic Games. So Steam to Steam, they're at the same level. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious... Well, we move on to the next part of this. But I am curious like the people who were in chat who've played it that didn't expect to like fall or I'm sorry, like over Prime. Are you having fun? Were you proven right? Or, you know, like I'm curious, like because I want to get some feedback from the community now that we've had almost a week of being able to play. Because I'm very, very curious. Because I know we're having fun, right? And, you know, it's great to just sit here and be the talking head. But I'm genuinely, genuinely curious what people are feeling about the game. Because I think the next thing I would love to go into if you guys are up to is the community as a whole. There's been a few weird things that I've noticed, especially like in the Discord and sometimes in Champ Select and in the game is people who are Pred fans who are intentionally trying to ruin the experience for over Prime play. Yeah, that's been happening a lot. Like a lot, apparently. Like it's a... I think I saw in the Cheaters and Hacks Discord was people... Like it was like a... I think one of the mods went in there and removed some of them because there was some foul language and stuff like that that wasn't appropriate. But it's pretty interesting that people would actively go into another game that's in Early Access or attempting to go into Early Access to ruin the fun of other people. I'm very, very surprised by that. And they could be totally bullshitting about like, oh, this is because Pred's going to be better or whatever and they're just wanting to be trolls. But if that's a genuine thing that people are doing, I'm blown away that someone would want to do that. Like what meant... Well, I firmly believe it's happening. I've seen it happen. Knowing this community, I firmly believe that. Yeah, I saw it. We had a Decker that just said that Pred's better and then instantly fed the entire game. And I was like, come on. Come on. I know Socap. I was talking to Socap. I got into it and gave a Socap and he's... He said that the game is greatly improved but he still hates it. Well, I guess the thing is too is do we feel like, for the people who say that it's just a brawler, do we feel like it's still a brawler or now having played it for, again, for almost a week, do we think that that statement is as accurate as it was? I think it's more of a brawler than predecessor but I don't think it's just a brawler. It's also a MOBA. You also have to get the gold and get the items and make smart MOBA decisions. It's just a little more action oriented than maybe some of the other MOBAs out there. Part of the lull of late game makes it feel more like a brawler because it turns into a brawler post 20 minutes. Yeah. Right, there's no... You're not rewarded for making the right MOBA plays post 20 minutes. Yeah. And so the thing you remember most is the thing you've done most recently and at the end of the game, what did you do most recently? You brawled for 15 minutes. Like it's just what it becomes because because those end game elements are not put in place yet. Lots of good comments. I think everybody... It looks like a lot of people are saying that either they were excited to play and then the first place in there having fun with it or hadn't tried it and are doing and enjoying it but it still needs work and they're waiting for Pred, which is fine. I've definitely noticed more toxicity just in general too this time around. They used the range mode. I think that's part of it. Yeah, that could be. You can get more sweaty people who think that they know everything. I played one game and I was playing against the gadget and I ended up being a sub and you know I said GG at the end of the game and like, hey, love you mangoos. I was like, hey, you played a great gadget because they did play a great gadget. And then there Mardak comes in. This gadget was terrible. Don't even say that. This gadget sucked. I was like, well, the fuck you're a one in 10 Mardak. Shut the fuck up. Let me talk to my subscriber and congratulate them on a good game. Wasn't that also the gadget where we were like, we have to fucking stomp her on the ground? We have to do every... We camped the shit out of her. I remember that game. I remember that whole... Yeah, it's fucking... I don't know. People are weird. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know either. But yeah, it's also just real quick because I will feel bad if I don't. I know there's been a ton of people that I've played with at least both solo and with you guys that have recognized me and us and all those things. And it's always cool to see you guys in game. And like, you see a name that I'm like, I remember that name. Like, I've seen you in comments and chat and whatever it is. Appreciate it too. Super cool. Love hearing from you guys. Like it's just super fun always. By the way, in case you didn't know, I'm FTM Jedi in there because a lot of times jelly knees and mangoes will get spotted and maybe they don't see me. I don't know why, but I'm there, okay? I want some love in chat, okay? Look at my cool hair. Well, that game we played with Minimum 10, jelly knees got noticed because he was the juggler gagging Minimum 10's lane. Minimum 10 didn't know if I was on Shinbi or Aurora. He just knew that I was in the game. So like, Mother of God, late at day, I'm on Shinbi right now. Give me some respect. So, wait, I have a take and I don't know if I should say it, but I'm going to say it. I think it's too easy to queue up with people who are not in your party and get into the same lobby with them. Whether on your team or not, that's a risk you're taking, but it's very easy in comp or quick play to queue close to the same time and end up in the same lobby together as long as you're within the same ranks, which right now is very easy because everybody's fucking silver three or two at this point. You know, some people are gold. Hey, oh, what can I say? Yeah, dude, fucking. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And it's if you're trying to. Spice Golden remembers. What the fuck, Taboo? If you're trying to queue snipe and get in games with your friends, either with or against them, it is not that hard. Right. Or against streamers, which can be an absolute nightmare of a problem. Obviously, we're not really encountering that because we're not streaming. I know chat, by the way, I told you guys I was going to stream. I just keep getting in my own way about streaming. I don't know why I just feel like I don't know. And so I haven't done it yet. Sorry. I love you guys, though. I did have one game where Chimera was going out of his way to fucking ult me every time. Like, what the hell is going on? Then that in screen. Hey, Gigi Vegas, I love you, man. I'm like, oh, oh, that's fair. Except that, though. Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There have been some times where I've lucky recognized the name on the other team and I'm like, well, here we go. Like, this could be one of them games. Yep. Oh, shit. But the next thing on our list that I want to talk about. Raise your. I disagree with all those points, bro, by the way. I did this hard. Maybe Bush is bad. Maybe it's the one that you can say is true. Well, he traveled mode so much. I don't understand that. I've never already gotten. Nobody's using it right now. It's it's really a bigger problem in full five stacks than it is in pubs. Okay. Right. They, so the thing, if I'm travel modding away from you and you're chasing me down, right? And your team is behind you. If you hit me, you can keep me from going into travel mode and the whole enemy team can come up still in travel mode. Yep. And catch up right in my face and stop me. Called leapfrogging. That's the thing I can do about that. Right. Which has happened, right? We've gotten caught out and so it, but I don't know. No loot boxes this time around. No loot boxes. Yes. That's that was very interesting. Now the shop as a whole seems to be missing, which is a little iffy, right? It's one of those things of like it could be missing for this test or it could be removed, but they didn't address it one way or the other. Yeah. Because the only way you can buy skins right now is by going into the heroes, right clicking the hero and then looking at their skins tab and buying the skin from there. Which took us way too long to figure out. Yeah. That unintuitive beyond all reason. It was you right click them and then you notice, then you see. Hang on. I will rescind that statement. If it's that or loot boxes, I will take that. If you want to make it unintuitive, fly. Sure. Let me make it hard for me to find your skins. Fine. That's fine. But at least I don't have to do it through a loot box. Fuck a loot box. But yeah. So I'm very curious to see if loot boxes make a return in the final version or if they are gone for good. In the last test, they were present, but they also had a full shop last time. Yeah. You went into the shop. It was like a casino thing. It's like design and tavern looking. It was kind of cool looking. I'll give them that. But that does not exist at all in this test. So I don't know. I mean, and a lot of the skins aren't present that were present in the previous test, right? Like, so several of the skins, which were my favorite, are one. The rampage, monkey skins up there. Yeah. There's like, so that's a bit, there was a bit of a disappointment. I think maybe I'm hoping that in the, if they do it, right, we don't even know for sure they're going to do it. But in their mid-play test update that they did last time, that if they do it again this time, we get the new hero. Fuck, I hope we get the new hero. And they do, come on, right? And an update maybe for some additional skins to kind of keep it fresh and fun. Because everybody's just running the same skins and it's kind of boring to me. I think definitely we're going to see the new hero. And then for the, I really, really hope we see the new, some skins, the old skins added back in and maybe some new ones as well. Yeah. Skins look, again, amazing. Hard to, hard to get upset about the skins in Over Prime. They're definitely interesting and fun. Especially now with the skill effects. Yes. Yeah. I wish some of them were a little bit more pronounced. Like the face skin, the fact that it's like that, that you look all purple and maroon or whatever that color is. I kind of wish the effects looked a little bit more like the way her skin looks. Maybe that's not the intention of that skin. But that skin looks so fucking cool. I kind of wish there was more coming with it. With abilities in general that last for a certain amount of time, you're trained to look for certain things. Sure. You have that same issue, right? Yeah. It comes from green to purple, for instance. People would be thrown. It would be a completely different thing that I'm looking out for. When it's an instant ability, like Countess, for instance, all of her stuff is, you're going to get hit or you're not. Right. There's no dodging, there's no any of that. Make it look however cool we want to make it look because it's not going to affect me dodging the ability at all. But when it comes down to I need to look for something to dodge the ability or to maneuver around it or something, that's where you're a little more limited. In choice. And that you get the pay to win skins and or pay to lose skins, depending. Depending. And we being jelly obviously, we know it's because we play a lot of League of Legends and there are those moments, right? Some skins just do things a little bit differently and a lot of people don't know how to react to them. And you see it in pro play, like they'll be like, man, why are they playing that skin? It's like 10 years old. Well, because it's hard to spot the ability or they look different and it throws people off. So I do hope that we get something like Fault was doing. And I think predecessors doing it too. I'm not sure. Updates to the ward skins and stuff along those lines. I think it'll be fun to be able to have some uniqueness in that space. Because right now, everything's just basic. Some banners. Serviceable. Yeah. Yeah. Banners. Yeah. But what do you guys were saying with them? We don't have any idea of predecessors cosmetics. Yeah, that's true. Oh, I thought we saw that they had ward skins, but maybe I don't know. No, okay. Just Fault. The skill effects, like Gideon. Like, I don't like that effect because it's red. Like a friendly Gideon's ultimate is red. It shows up as a green circle on the ground, but I was on deck or our Gideon ulted. I immediately launched a fucking bomb at him because I just saw red and Gideon and, you know, instinct. Wasting my damn stun. That's fair. But can you argue though that that one that has all the gears and stuff like that looks cool as fuck? That's the skin that gives him a red fucking. But the ball of like all the gears and they land and go, it looks fucking cool as shit. I agree though the colors should be like a green means friendly, red means not friendly. And there's a lot. We talked about that last play test and it's still present in this one. Sometimes the skill effects, especially in massive teamfights, like howitzer, for example, he'll launch something and it's a big red circle all around you and everything else gets lost in the mess. Like if somebody else is also casting an AOE ability, you don't know it because you're surrounded by a red line and now you're just in that last game with Gadget and Howie and they were both just launching their AOE ults on you. You're just like, okay, well, I guess I'm fucked anyway. But like I didn't know I was fucked by both of them. Oh, that's the game you were playing Chimera. Yeah, you were fucked. You were right in the middle. Although our level one got fucked. So that's part of the reason why I sucked so bad in jungle that time. Not because I never played jungle and I've never played Chimera jungle or any of those things is because we lost level one because they invaded us because they were scared of my jungle. Gadget's two best assets. Yeah, that Gadget titty skin is fucking awesome. It's a pretty good one. Even her base skin is pretty good now. The version of it looks pretty cool. I'm not, I don't hate it. But just skin is also super fucking cool. We just need to tone Gadget down a little bit. Just tone her down a little bit. Yeah, damage-wise. Yeah, she needs a nerf hard. She is not even damage-wise. It's like, like somebody said in chat earlier, I forget who was it said. It used to be like an arming time for the mine. So if it landed directly on you, but you were moving and you got out of it, it didn't attach to your head. Yep, we ban Gadget every game, Raziel. Every fucking game. And then the second one is either, well, FaZe, Murdoch, or Fangmow. Those are the other ones. Those are the other ones. Unless we get first pick. Then we're like, oh fuck. Because you don't want to get rid of all the power picks. By the way, big fan, I know some people complained about it. I am happy the end comp, it's no mere matches. Because there's been so many more interesting games after the ban. So you get those four bans. The amount of characters that are being played now are very different versus like what we had in the last play test and in fault, for example, where you had basically almost always the same five going up against each other and it was boring as fuck. Like I love that there's having to be forced into playing something else. So they pick Gideon. I have to come up with a counter pick for Gideon. What am I going to play? I think the biggest thing they need to do though is they need to add a hero preference before bans go out. Yes, I agree with that. It's way too often that you ban somebody or four people jump on a ban and because the bans are so quick, you don't have time to sit and talk about them. You ban out the gadget, for instance, and someone's first pick and like, I could have first picked gadget. And it's like, well, you should have said something. Like, yep. They definitely need some kind of pref. Yeah. Kat's talking about how he looks like a hamster now. I dislike that so much. Not a fan. But what I would... I think he looks great. They can keep how it's are looking like he is. The missile, the goddamn, no, the missile, the fucking R2000 rocket. If there is a minion by your left foot, when you fire that missile, it will explode in your face on that minion. If there is a wall somewhere in your field of vision, it will fucking explode right now. Trying to hit somebody with that goddamn thing. I think it because of the way that it fires. It's hard to see sometimes, but I think it looks like it fires at hip level, right? And so the minion is just tall enough for it to hit it, right? And so it's like, yeah. It must have a huge hitbox, too, or something. Holy shit. Yeah, I've had it happen, too, and it is annoying. But you know what, man? Don't be firing rockets when you got people right next to you. You were in the army, you know better. But they're enemies. Right there in front of you. I am curious, Jelly, because we talked about it a little bit. How have you felt? Because we talked about it off-stream, obviously. And I'm curious what chat, what thing, too. How have you felt about the massive changes to all the minions in jungle? And their new abilities. And obviously, we talked a little bit about how tanky they are, which helps so laner's not come in there and steal your shit. But outside of that, because I know when I jumped in there, I was like, holy fuck, this guy's shooting a flamethrower at me. What the fuck? Another one that jumps up in the air and does like a smash. Yeah. Dude, fucking, I thought it was cool, but I don't play jungle as much. So how do you feel about it? Did it liven it up for you? I think it's super cool, 100%. I think they're gimmicks nine times out of 10. It doesn't matter. Doesn't change things too much. There are a few of the camps that are way more deadly than others. So do you wish that those, like that flamethrower guy, super easy to dodge the flamethrower, right? Do you wish that it was more? Yeah. Do you wish that it was more? He charged up and he launches the line. What it does well is it breaks up the monotony of jungling. Yeah. Which is very rough. Or the flame guy in particular. I can't just stand there and left mouse button until he dies. Yes. Right. Is that I, if I want to leave with as much health as possible, I need to maneuver at least away from him when he does his line or when he does his AOE section off with his like fire grenade, whatever the bullshit it is that he does that, right? There are other camps that they, one of the, there's a three camp. The bigger minion will lower your physical resistances. Oh. So you take more damage from the camp. So it's more beneficial to kill him first over the small ones. There's this camp with shields that is better to beneficial to kill the small ones over the big one. Like it changes it up, but it really is more of a gimmick than anything else. Right. At the end of the day, if you just left clicked at a jungle camp for the most part, you're probably going to leave with the same same or very, very similar amount of health. And jungles, yeah, the jungle minions camp is a tax too. That is true. Yeah. If you're circle strafing them, you can take less damage because you're dodging their attacks. The other one I wanted to point out in that same theme, but is a neutral camp. I love the effects of the raptor. I liked it. There's like that one that the wind one that like pulls you in a price rate. Sorry. I guess it looks like a fucking raptor to me. It looks like a T-Rex, but like I like that. Doesn't it? It's like no, no, whatever. I don't know. It's fine. I like the wind one the most. That's my favorite one. If you get too close to it, it sucks you into the middle of it. There's one that does like a knock up. I don't know all of them, but I think that it was cool that they added these separate effects to a camp that's before we just showed up, killed it, got a buff and moved on. Now it's like a whole thing. Like you got to play around depending on which buff it is because you're not paying attention as the carry. All of a sudden you're sucked into the middle and the enemy shows up. You're like all primed to just get smooshed and it doesn't. I love the like abilities it has. All right, guys. Okay. I said I wish the cooldown of the abilities, the independently were longer because there are too many times where like the earth rat, the fuck you got me doing. They're flaming me too. Dude, look at them all. Look at them. Fuck me. I'm sorry for the earth prime spirit stuns me like five times back to back. And it's just like I just want to kill this thing. Stop stunning me, please. It doesn't look like a raptor. It's a reindeer. Okay. I got it, guys. Thank you. This guy never seen Jurassic Park. I'm sorry. Okay. For fuck. But guys, look how pretty my hair is. Okay. I might not know what a raptor or a reindeer is, but look, I'm fucking cute. Yeah. It looks like a Kieran. That's what it looks like the most I would say. Jesus Christ. Or to compare to anything. Definitely not a raptor. Only an absolute asshole would ever say that that thing looked like a raptor. I do want to point out to Jamie because we had the same thing happen. Jamie, he said my dumb team banned two carries and the enemy picked the other two. Guess who was Carrie and last pick? So I had to go with Gideon. I had a game earlier. I was playing with Raven and the shirt up. We banned four, banned three carries. They picked one and I was telling our first pick. I was like, you need to grab sparrow. If you do not grab sparrow and trade our carry who's lower on this list, we will not have a carry. You have to pick a sparrow right now. And he did luckily, but it easily could have gone bad. David, stacking isn't allowed in ranked. But yeah, it's definitely allowed in quick match. And yeah, I do kind of feel bad about that because like, especially when I'm playing with Raven's team, we just kind of like I get bored. You need to have a mode where your friends can join in and play. It's not a custom, right? I understand that it's probably not the most fun experience if you're trying to learn the game and you're going in and you end up on Raven's five stack, right? And you just get waffle stomped. Like that does suck. Like we had that happen when we were playing Kingsund, right, Jelly? Like it was just like, oh, fuck dude. We're just not even getting to play the game because it was so much better. And it is rough, but I don't know how they get around that. They need a mode where people can all jump in as however. Competitive is supposed to be that mode, right? Like that's the hard part. I'm sponsored by Monster Energy. Speaking of Gideon, he's getting a little lackluster this time around, man. Gideon doesn't feel good at all, which I'm actually okay with because we have fault for two years and fault basically every game every single fucking time. I'm happy to see some other fucking champions being played. Like it just makes me happy and it makes me excited with all the slight changes to the kits. I'm excited to see like what are they going to do with all the new that the characters that haven't made it in yet, right? Like what's Iggy going to look like? What's like, what's the spinning guy Gray Stone or whatever his name is? Yeah, you got it right. Yes, like what is he going to look like? You know what I mean? Like what are they going to do? And then so that from that perspective, I'm really, really excited to see as they add in and then bring in their own IP. Like what this game is really going to have once we're at full champion stacks and I think it's going to be fun. I think it's going to be hectic. A little baffled by some of the kit changes, but I'll go ahead, Jelly. Cat mentioned I've played nothing but ranked and Gideon's never picked. 100%. When I see a Gideon picked in my ranked team, I get nervous because I sit there and I'm like, well, this is going to be a rough mid lane game, I'm guessing. I'll think he's as bad as people seem to think he is because see what it is. Let me tell you, let me break this down to you a little bit. A little bit about Gideon. So his right click is the suction cup. So you want to hit that and then you want to hit drop the rock, the queue. The thing is you can queue twice before your suction cup comes off cooldown. So you suction cup queue, then you have to land a naked queue and it seems that people are fucking terrified to try and land a naked queue. They just wait till their right click comes off cooldown again. So you mess out on a giant amount of damage and then his fucking ultimate kind of sucks because you'll get stunned out of it or gadget will drop her ultimate on top of you while you're trying to ult or something will fucking happen. You just get eaten alive and every time you use Gideon's ultimate. I think Kat brings up a good point actually of I feel like Greystone is one of the flagship or safest solo characters. Greystone is also a massive counter if balanced correctly to the carry off lane meta. I think that's a hundred percent true. Well, you get a little bit with Sarath. Sarath can, I think people are scared to play her though. Good, like don't play Sarath. I think for me, when I think about Gideon, for example, it does feel a bit of a bummer that they butchered our boy, right? Because he's kind of the staple Paragon mid laner. He just doesn't do the job as well as the other mid laners do, right? Like Howitzer does a better job being a Gideon than Gideon does. You know what I mean? His ultimate is bigger. He's safer when he launches it. He still scales really well. His damage is amazing. His poke is great. If you're going to play Gideon, just play Howitzer instead and you'll have a better time. It's just easier. Gideon wants to be an artillery mage, but Gadget and Howitzer just take his lunch money every day and just doesn't matter. Alliance Wilson says, where do you see Bellica? I think Bellica is a very solid choice that I don't see picked enough for both mid lane and off lane, but a very good mid later. If I were to tier list them a little bit here, I would say Shembe and Gideon are towards the bottom. And the Fey. Shembe, Gideon and the Fey are all three at the bottom. I hate to say that because I love the Fey, but Harvest Nettle is being a lock-on instead of a long-range skill shot. Kind of ruins her. If you get good with her Q, it can work. It can work. Fey mid can work if you're good with her, but I think she's bottom tier with Gideon and Shembe. And then the next rank up, you got Bellica and Howitzer who are just fucking badass. I would call them A tier, but then Gadget and Fey's are fucking S tier as fuck. And then my wild card would be Countess because Countess directly counters Gadget, but gets fucking shit on by Fey's. I would put Countess also in the A tier, but she's more of a rock, paper, scissor. To me, that's fine if you have a handshake of rock, paper, scissors, but the problem becomes when you get somebody like Gadget who's just infinitely safe. Like even if she does get counterpicked, she's still not going to lose lane. And if you just get out of the laning phase, you're going to hard, hard carry over Countess in teamfights. Like even if Countess can beat you in lane, okay. So when it hits 15 minutes, Gadget gets her R off in a teamfight, that teamfight's going to go just fine. Right. And Countess is still very susceptible to CC, very squishy. Not going to always guarantee to get to the back line, which she needs to do to be effective because she's not going to kill any of the front line. And she doesn't do enough damage. I think to me, that's also one of the biggest things is that you're almost pigeonholing players and having to play the late game scaling mages versus more of the assassins, which is why I think James has gotten off of Kalari more recently and started playing more of the bruiser style because it's just more effective in teamfights. Kalari is great for ganking and picking people off. And the one that becomes teamfight time, man, Kalari just gets fucked in the butt and like hard with no lube. Last test, Kalari could at least take out one target before she went down. This test, she can't do that. Right. Especially with how powerful like Murdock is, for instance. If you jump on a Murdock, he just shield bashes you away and you're done. Like congrats. You don't, you get to die. You don't get anything off. Nothing like that. It's kind of ridiculous. Covetous Lament also, Count as Jungle is borderline unplayable this test. I did it in one game and I hated every moment of it. I haven't seen anybody do it successfully. I've seen a lot of people try Count as Jungle. I've yet to see it be like super successful. And that's the jungle camp changes. Don't favor caster junglers because their basic attacks don't do enough damage and their abilities are too long on cooldown. Yep. And Shinbi can't jungle anymore because she, they removed the heal on her E. So. I think Shinbi is actually to me the biggest disappointment. I'm so bummed that they gutted her so much. She's still good though. She's, she's still good. She's still good. Maybe. Is she decent mid lane? She's decent mid lane. Like I've done well with her mid lane and just you have to rush Archon's Gospel, which gives you healing back on your E. If you rush that item, then you're, you're fine, but. Our boy Grux feels great. I think Grux is, is an awesome pick. Pretty easy to pick up if an idiot like me can play him. I think you can off lane and in jungle. I think he's, he's a good, good solid pick. I think you could probably even get away with playing him in a support role if you, if you land your Q's good, but it'd be a little risky. Rampage feels good overall. Rampage is annoying because he's probably the most tanky of tanks. Um, you know, our boys have several is unfortunately still not that great. I haven't noticed a really good set. Have you guys seen a good seven in any of the games that I wasn't playing? In a couple, but it's, it's rough because of the ADC meta. He just gets taken out. Yeah. I don't know. We should do a stream, I think, uh, of the, the ranking them putting, doing one of those tierless things. You know what I mean? And we start putting everybody in where the, where we think they, they land. I mean, all I can record some, all I can record reports of mid lane. I haven't played anything, anything, a support mid lane. Dude, you gotta play something else, man. I know I do. I do love playing support mid lane so much. Fuck Decker is so goddamn good. So good. Yes. Holy shit. Decker is amazing. The heal on Narbash is still really strong. Yes. Narbash is really strong in the right hands. Like, I mean, I think honestly, Mango's being on Narbash that last game is the one reason why we managed to get you to a point as a twin blast or where you could fucking basically decimate the team. I made a lot of mistakes there, but I think once I got the hanging of him and then once I got, thank you enough. Guys, if you're a Faye fan, play him some player support or offline. I think Faye is fucking broken and offline personally, especially against melees, but even against the carries that like to play out there, she can, she can fuck those guys up personally, especially with her E being able to get free poke with no mana cost. It's so nice. So easy. I like to roll D. I like to roll D better. I'm, I'm, I'm mangoes. I like Paragon. I don't want to lock one E. I don't want it. I really don't. I'm making the Faye face right now, the indignant Faye face that she has for her profile. So Kat, that's to me a point I wanted to touch on actually. One thing about this game is that no one builds anti-heal and then complains about Narbash. Yes. Anti-heal is everywhere that it's core and kits now. It's core in so many of the items. It's so, it's so almost, I would say too prevalent in the itemization because if a team, if even one person's building anti-heal, it's worthwhile against a Chimera, a Narbash, a Rampage, any of these people. It's insane how strong anti-heal is. I was going to say, you probably want to build one anti-heal item in almost every game because it's so easy to itemize into healing through, like whether as a jungler or whatever, like, you know, playing offline, you can get vamp or healing in your kit. And if you have an anti-heal, it doesn't matter anymore. You don't get it. Like Countess E, for instance, Countess E is massive. And that has anti-heal built in. Polari right click has anti-heal built in. There are so many characters that have anti-heal in their kit now that I actually disagree that there's that many, that it's just that native because it ruins things like Chimera healing to an extent because there's not itemization against it. Now it's just if they've played this character, Chimera suffers. Countess Living, yes. I was reading the same thing. I saw Carrie first do that one. I also agree. I think actually of the carry items, that's one of the ones I dislike the most because it's so niche and so narrowed to what you do. It removes, like, if you're going to build a crit build, you almost have to have that item. But that item is so expensive and the components building up to it fucking suck. I hate it. I hate it so much. I do not like that item. They can do a better job. They can do a better job across the board, like Jelly was saying about items. I still think items are good and they're in a better place than they were last test for fucking sure because you had, like, 15 items last time. This time we have, like, over 100. So it's great. But yeah, I don't know. I still remember. I think everything is not that bad. I think it was one of the first Pred tests, not the very first Pred Alpha test, but one of the very first Beta tests was some guy sent me a clip of him going off. He's like, look how much damage I'm doing because he had, like, six of the unique items that give you extra crit damage. I'm like, you're only really doing that damage from the stats that you got, buddy, because you're not dealing fucking 600% crit. Yeah, it's the second highest priced item in the game. Yeah, and I have seen Kari's first build it, which is so stupid because it's like, they're not even reading the description. Highest prices, Ray Paging Toto, right? It's Ray Paging Toto, and then that, and then Xemius Toy. Yeah. What? No, Xemius Toy is, like, sixth. Mm-mm. Yeah, huh. I'm looking at it, Mangus. Oh, what's above it, then? Heart, Zinx Claw Barrier, and Market Stone. The Treasured Sword and Rampaging Toto. I'm curious, Chat, have any of you guys invited your friends who have not played either Paragon or a third person mobile before, or maybe they're coming from Smite and are playing over Prime for the first time? I'm very curious if any of you guys have any experience with those people and what their take has been on it. Because that's one thing that I don't think we get enough of, is finding out what the new player experience is really like. I haven't seen that much in the Discord really talking about new players, so I'm very, very, very curious, like, for people who have not played the game before, how they're feeling about it. Because I didn't get, I didn't invite anybody. Like, last time when we had Fault, for example, we got Paul to play with us, and like, we got his unique take on that, which I thought was very interesting. Someone who had never played a mobile before and never played a third person mobile before, and how much he struggled, but also had a lot of fun. And so I'm very curious if people are encountering that, so. Mangoes, I disagree with you. It's not that her kit works too well for a mage. It's that her damage numbers are tuned through the fucking roof. Yeah. And so her support kit is just better as a mage because of those damage numbers. I can see that, yeah. I can see that. If they would tone her damage numbers down, I would take people would use her as a support more often. I still don't like this whole linking to enemies thing. That's Richter's thing is pulling people, right? Why give it to her on a lock-on? I'm not sure it's not in this game. I don't know who you're talking about. Well, so the fact- He will be eventually, god damn it. Yeah, but it might have a different thing. And a pull, all-in-one ability is kind of wild. I agree with you on that. I think it needs to choose it in identity. I don't think you'd get to be a damage source. The one caveat should be or make the link smaller, right? So you have to be farther, farther. If you're going to keep the damage and the ability to pull and the healing and all that stuff from it, if you want to keep that, because I think that's cool. I do like it as a concept as a thing. I played her off lane in our most recent, it was so free because I've been able to poke with my E and keep that link up. And I still, if shit really gets hit, you know, feisty, I can just blink away. Like I'm out of this. I fuck a bit off more than I could chew. I think if it forced you to have to get closer, it wouldn't be as oppressive. Because I think when you look at some of the other kits that have that kind of hard CC in them, you're usually punished by having to get up closer to be able to enact them. Like all the stuns that we have in the game, you basically have to be in melee range, right? Like Narbash does an AoE, but he has to be in the fucking thick of it, like taking full-on damage to be able to really get that big benefit from it. Whereas her on a single-click ability, yes, it's on a long cooldown once you do it and you remove the damage once you do the pull, but it's still 20 seconds. And if you rank it up first, it gets down to like, I think eight seconds, I think is the lowest rank, if I remember correctly. It's too free. It's too easy. It's so many times you guys are trying to run away and I just pull them back into the team and just like, okay, you're dead now. Dennis Hort says FaZe has zero wave clear. Her Q just, her Q hits harder than a Gideon Q. Instantly kill all six minions in a wave if they're correctly. FaZe can kill an entire wave faster than any other mage in the game, faster in the game with less items. There's not any other character in the game. Yeah. One of you thinks that it's because he's trying to use her laser Kamiame. Oh, the laser doesn't do shit to the minions. Yeah, it doesn't. No, it's used as a CC tool. Like you can use it to help weaken minions, right? Like I definitely still think you should use it to help you either push waves or whatever, but I do agree that the Q damage, so you have to get up in melee range. It's not like with Gideon where you can launch it from, you know, half a screen away. You do have to get up into melee range to be able to use it effectively, but it does a lot of damage. I was surprised. I didn't realize that it did so much damage. I knew. I think it was a load. Whoa! And it blinds. I've been hit by it and I'm just half health. I'm like, great, thank you. It's like Gadget Mine just short range. Which is fine. I think I'm okay with that personally. He did say most confidence limit. He did say most characters in the game. Yeah. Cover this. Get out of here. I hit with an ult. Seven can clear faster with this ult. True. Big true. I mean, you would think so, Dennis Horn, but it's you like blind. Yeah. And plus you can link to somebody and hit the blind and it kills the minions around them. Yeah. Like her kit is stupid overpowered. Yeah. Worth to deal so much goddamn damage. On there. I would love to see her be able to be a support and a mid laner, depending on how you built her. 100%. I think that's valuable. I think that's a cool niche that she could fill. Her damage is so high right now that if you're not playing her as a damage mage in the mid lane, you're losing out on potential rather. Yeah. But there's a reason she's banned first every fucking. Yeah. Her and Gadget are probably the most common bands that I've seen. Yep. We ban them every time. Top two bands every time. Are we about to wrap this up boys? Yeah. Yeah. We do need to wrap it up. I'm doing a tournament that you're going to. Not a tournament. We're playing against the devs. Oh yeah. Yeah. Are you excited about that by the way? Yeah. It should be a lot of fun. Yeah. I'm going to get my shit pushed in. But yeah. How is that any different than any other Sunday night for you? It is no different. All right. So yeah. Let's go ahead and sort of wrap things up. Jelly. Any final words and what do you want to plug? I would like everybody to go to the NA East Leaderboard and go to page three. And then. No. I'm hoping that I'll be able to stream this week. I love it. And yeah. Watch my climb to the top of the Leaderboards because I'm moving. Viking. Any final words? Yeah. Anything to plug? They just came home. Sorry. I got a little loud again. No. I've also been really enjoying the game. I haven't streamed. I know I said that earlier. I keep fighting myself. I have no reason not to stream, guys. I just get in my own way. I start thinking about it like, oh, it'd be easier just to kind of play casually. And now I feel like I have to do it. I should get on there. Maybe me and Jelly both will have to just bite the bullet now that he's starting to feel a little bit better and turn our streams on. And then have fun. And you guys can come and talk shit about how scuffed I'm playing. But no. It's been a blast. And I don't really have anything to plug other than you can follow me on Twitter. For as long as Twitter still lasts. You can. Well, please stop to me on YouTube. If I do go live, that's where you'll see it. And that's that's about it, I guess. Look tonight, man. Goose, I'm really excited to watch this. I think we're going to watch it on Stunt's Stream. Stunt's Stream, Neurona Stream, Otaku Lordy Stream. There's a lot of people that you can watch on their stream. They're going to make an announcement in the in the overprime discord. So if you guys want to watch that being streamed, I don't think I'm going to stream it. I just need to set streaming. I need to set some more things up and make sure that I can actually stream the game well before I start streaming. Make sure my bit rate is set up. But yeah, it should be a good time to watch me. Who thinks Mingus should stream it? I think Mingus should stream it. Shut the fuck up, Jedi. Oh, wife said she wants you to stream it. Oh, God. Yeah. I'm certainly not going to listen to Epi. You're not going to listen to my wife. You got to look. Oh, shit. I've been in trouble with Epi. All right. But that's going to wrap it up, folks. I appreciate everybody coming out tonight. Like I said, we've enjoyed the hell out of the game. Of course, we had problems with overprime. And don't be afraid to let me know in the comments what your problems were with overprime. But make a constructive criticism. Let me know what your problem was and how you would fix it and make sure you know what you're talking about. Don't be coming in here talking about there's no laning phase because portals are always open, because the portals aren't open until eight minutes, boys. But yeah, that is going to do it for this week. This is the four of the mediums crew signing off. You guys have a good one. Feel is still insane. I agree, jelly, by the way. I thought he was kind of underpowered, but now having