 So, hi and welcome, Nicholas. First of all, this is your second session with me in Philosophical Counseling. And we agree that this session would be recorded. Yeah. We agreed that we would make this session public on YouTube. Yeah. And we also agreed that if you or I decide that we want to take it out of YouTube, we will do so. So, last week, it was our first session and we talked about a few things of which I'd like to remember the following. First of all, you said that for a while you listened to Jordan Peterson's videos and tried to follow the path. He apparently recommends of being more realistic, pick a job, don't dream, be responsible. I'm quoting you and that the consequence of that is that you felt that your spirituality shut down. Exactly. We can come back to that idea. You also mentioned that you do have some you do have rather good confidence in your cognitive ability. But not in yourself. So you distinguished this to instances and you can also get back to that. Yeah, you said that your, your biggest fear and I'm quoting you your biggest fear is bombing through life without any realization after a while. And, and you ended up, we ended up talking about flow you said I wish I could be a go with the flow person but then we, we realized that, well there might be different meanings of that idea of flow and some meanings might mean that we are not really a reflexive person, but other meanings of flow actually might mean that we are actually very aware of our surroundings. Yeah. Is there anything I forgot that you feel was important since you had one week to reflect on our session. I feel that that summarizes the last session accurately I didn't. I have my notebook here today but last week I didn't so I didn't write down a lot of things but I'm glad you were able to. Did you actually memorize it or you wrote it down. I take, I did take some notes. So, I'm going to be taking this level that's accurate that summarizes basically my core philosophical dilemma you like. Yeah. And can I ask you, since our conversation last week, what were the elements that came back in your interior monologue in in, you know the reflection that you probably had about Yeah, one thing that stuck out to me was your reflection on the idea of of going with the flow and you said, because I said that going with the flow it's kind of, you know, not thinking too much, you know, and you said that it's not necessarily accurate to associate going with the flow with a sort of low intelligence or something like that because not many people are actually going with the flow and it takes a lot of creative thinking to execute the going in the flow properly so that made me think a lot, you know so because I was thinking in a, as you pointed out last week there was a lot of binary sort of thinking where I thought for example, you either had to go with the flow and let go of all sort of reason, you know, or you had to be very rigid and logical and so on. And it made me realize that you can be reasonably going with the flow, which is something I'm thinking of and I'm trying to work on you know so I guess there was something else as well that came out to me. That was the main one if I remember the other. Right. Yeah, indeed we mentioned, for example, the famous book by me highly she sent me highly which is a book on flow, which he defined as a state of high focus that is reached by for example, artists or writers or researchers anyone that is deeply immersed in the topic that they love. And that, of course, does not mean just floating in the wind, but rather being dedicated to a vision and therefore being able to perhaps indeed neglect some aspects of reality and favor others. But in the end, most importantly, have a self reflective attitude towards what we're doing in the sense that anything can be information if you have if you have a passion. Anything can can be can feed into it can be an inspiration. So that actually connects with the conversation we had about binary thinking because you felt that there was a dilemma right you felt that we talked a lot about idealism and realism. Yes, yes, right. And, yes, I remember you were you were saying sorry for cutting your but you were saying that at some point in the discussion you were going to explore the idea that these are not opposites and I was looking forward to that. Right. Yeah, we talked a bit about the idea of pragmatic idealism right. Yeah. I asked you if you thought that the major improvements in our humanity adventure and experience on earth are brought about by realists or idealists. Your answer was probably idealists. Yeah, there is there seems to be a, you know, sort of big lie around that if you're a realist, you will make things happen. Well, actually if you realize you're more likely just to reproduce the routines and and not bring anything new to the world. Now of course things are more complex hence the idea of pragmatic idealism. Yeah, but more importantly let's get back to you and to the present. So, the reason why you want to reflect philosophically. Upon your life is that you, as you said, want to be sure that you take the right direction. How would you define that direction by the way. Yeah, if you, I didn't do a lot of economics recently because I'm in computer science but if you if we were to go by Maslow's triangle. It's basically self actualization self fulfillment. So, I want to go in a direction that not only provides food, clothing and shelf about something I can be have a sense of fulfillment or pride about, you know, that's what I would be fine in general terms. And so, and you do you have any idea of what would give you such sense of fulfillment or pride. Well, it's, it's, it's not a concrete idea but you know it's also not too general like make the world a better place. I do have in a very specific sort of things in mind, you know, intrapreneurially and otherwise, you know, and like I said, I'm very confident in my cognitive abilities and I want to use that to give back somehow, you know, because I am from Nigeria, you know, so I have taught teachers the United Nations, you know, seven kids in Africa, whatever where I lived with them I have seen those things. And I feel like I have enough sort of cognitive ability to contribute in a meaningful way, you know, using my field in the sciences and so on. So it could be some kind of entrepreneurial team or some kind of, I can get pretty good involvement in the political movements as well and so on. So I have a modestly concrete idea of what sort of thing would be self actualizing for me. I also know what wouldn't be, you know, which is important, you know, it's one of the good things actually I learned from from JVP because he said, if you want to know your purpose or what you want to be or something like that, you have to start by eliminating what you cannot be and what you what you what you know you don't want to be. All right, which is two different things right. Yeah, because to know what what we don't want to be relates to the to the self right and to self determination. The other point might be more tricky because do we really know what we're capable of right it's it's complicated very often we might be too critical or or perhaps somehow self delusional. Yeah, yeah, that's I am on the two critical side of this spectrum because for a very long time in my life I was actually very overconfident you know like I could do anything and so on and so on but I don't know if this is just my personal philosophy or sort of the natural biological openness of childhood, you know just going away with age, but now I'm in as I'm 24 now in my mid 20s so I'm at the stage of my life, where I can no longer say to myself with great confidence, you can do anything as such, you know, so I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic now, you know that's what that's that's what is creating the sort of philosophical dilemma and so on yeah. Right. And we'll get back to that because that I think raises question of honesty. Yeah, or self honesty. But before that, I would like to point and ask you if you feel that there is a slight contradiction between on the one hand, wishing to self actualize. Yes. And on the other hand, giving back and contributing. Right because there's a tension there right on the one hand it's like about the others that there's an idea of altruism. And on the other hand there's an idea of self of self development. Yeah, how do you combine this to for me they're not necessarily opposites for me that they're basically one of the same thing self actualization for me. It's a very external thing, you know, it's a very self actualization for me is directly proportional to the self actualization because what else is, is life you know, I have lived in the West for a while but I still retain my sort of community oriented upbringing, you know, where it's not really a very nice thing for you to be it's proportionately successful to everyone around you and also willing to assist you know. So, that's influenced my upbringing to the point where. So I want some form of stability a house, a job and some income and so on but beyond that point, there is nothing that can actually make me feel more actualized than actualizing others, you know, so that's the way I give it to you. You mentioned that you were raised in Africa and what you're saying about the, the sort of a synthesis between self actualizing and actually actualizing others that sort of resonates with Ubuntu philosophy. I think you were aware of it or if you heard of it. I know it's, it's an operating system in any computer sense. Right, right, it was used, it was indeed but originally it's a, a, I think South African, let's say notion. You know you that sort of means, I am because you are it emphasizes the interdependence of most of our capacities right the fact that I'm right now talking to you. I didn't invent that language. This is this, this made me reflect sorry I will just pause the recording because I have someone arriving. Okay. Right, so we're back after technical interruption. Yeah, so, actually, it's interesting that many people mentioned this Maslow self actualization concept, and we often forget that he actually had another therefore there's this famous pyramid. Yeah, where we first of course we at the base of the pyramid is fundamental needs like shelter and food. But he actually proposed a higher step above self actualization. Yeah, yeah, which he calls you do you know. No, I've never heard of this now. Yeah, he called itself transcendence. I think I've seen it somewhere I just said transcendence like a picture or something I didn't know. I thought it was referring to some kind of oneness like spiritual kind of thing here. Yeah, it's a little bit that it's the idea that he came to the conclusion that the idea of self realization was perhaps a little bit to ego centric. Bringing at least for an Occidental reader or citizen, bringing the idea that well, it's all about individual accomplishment. And so by self transcendence you met in event precisely. Well actually what do you think he meant. I've always been rather not necessarily skeptical or cynical but I've always been careful with the idea of transcendence and spiritual oneness and so on because it's a very isolate and you know, you go in a mountain somewhere to Tibet or something. And you evolve. It feels weirdly self serving to me even though it's meant to be like make you one with others and so on so. In my opinion. That transcendence would work for me if it's not an extended period of withdrawal from society or something because my idea of self actualization is clearly coupled with the actualization of others so if if I'm going on some kind of spiritual journey, which will take me out of society like the ancient months and so on and make me unable to contribute in a meaningful tangible way. It wouldn't be fulfilling for me. Yeah, that's very interesting because we might be back again. You mentioned yourself that last week we. We had some moments of buying you had some moments of binary thinking and dual opposition right. And just made another one. Right. Yeah. It's understandable to be so, but I mean it's, it's understandable in the sense that human history has made that distinction for most of its period right. I do think that transcendence is somehow religious and that it's not achievable in in our secular societies and that it demands some form of withdrawal. And therefore, it's sort of conflicts with our need to to act in the world to be a, you know, engage. It's, it categorizes and other rises you as well like you're now one of the transcendent people. And that's not really what I want you know I want to be a person who is part of everything that's going on, maybe with a slightly different point of view but who is also meaningfully contributing you know I don't want to be a transcendent or something like I don't know if that's. No but that's that's I see your view. I think that what Maslow meant is at least this is what I will mean here is that transcendence is actually all all around us in very in things that we usually don't see as transmuting us or trying, you know, you know, transforming us. For example, ideas, right, it doesn't have to be a God ideas transcendence values, right. Let's take a person who would believe that justice is her highest ideal, and we try to leave accordingly. That is, qualifies that exercise, if it's conducted daily exercise as a form of self transcendence that actually is engaged and embodied in society right because that person will hopefully perform all series of more or less inclusive and impactful acts in the direction of her ideal. So I think that's what he meant I think the idea of self transcendence is the idea that we can serve ideals and ideas. It's such that we sort of forget ourselves, so at least to a certain extent because it might be might be dangerous to completely forget ourselves right, but we sort of become concepts. Right, so it's like we, we become more than just a, you know, say a thinking animal. But you prefer okay so you for you. Transcendence there is there is a religious idea and and so let's go back to stuff. I saw it predominantly as having to do with a religious sort of aspect and I actually, it may just be a definitional problem but I actually thought transcendence was more of herself 17 than actualization because transcendence to me meant going in a mountain and you know, bringing your heart rate down to like 15 bits per minute and all that kind of stuff. Right, right. Yeah, so I am interested in the idea you just brought up about being transcendence being all around us or something like that. So the, the speaking of all around us traditionally in philosophy, if we get a little bit technical here, the word transcendence has an opposite which is immanence, immanence. And so, yeah, so imminent designates everything that is here and now, let's say, matter, flesh, feelings, emotions. Yeah, and transcendence would designate more. So you would have you with imminent you have that idea of horizontality right and transcendence you have that idea of verticality. Right. I think we are a species that is both imminent and transcendent. Right, I mean, for one reason we, we are walking erect, right, since Omo erectus so that sort of relates to a sort of a physical manifestation of some form of transcendence perhaps. But okay, so I get your point you want to be in the world you want to, you want to make a change in the world and not in the Buddhist monastery or. And so the question is, right, which what's the orientation there what's do you have an idea. Because I suppose that if you want to make a change you want to make a change as you said yourself for the better right. Yeah. So we had another technical interaction. Yes. I forgot where I was talking about transcendence around us. Yeah, imminent and imminent. So, but you. Okay, you, you want to be in the world and and act upon it. And I suppose that you have an idea of what is a better world I suppose or I have a general idea. Yeah, I don't have a complete idea because I don't believe in. I believe that that that that's in a political sense having a complete idea of what constitutes a better world is like a recipe for budget fascism you know so. I have a general, you know just people being hungry people being families is okay and like just basic stuff, you know it's not a grand. What's it called a universal theory of everything it's called something like that you know I don't have any of that. So again, another dualism there. So, if we have a concrete idea on how to change the world then we become the fascist. So it's better to leave to leave it on concrete but then we, we don't, we don't do anything in fact if it's on concrete so there's another dilemma there or Well, yeah, I didn't see it as a dilemma previously because I have always been worried, you know about being the problem with being idealistic really and I got a lot of this from GBP as well. It's people who are very idealistic like that often find themselves having to go through having to enact those ideologies into reality and the process of doing that can result in conflict. You know, so it's for me I personally think you should leave a wiggle room or like for change really as opposed to having a concrete a concrete idea of okay what this is what the better world would look like you know if I if I had a concrete idea of a better world it would probably be a world in which everybody had to have a gym membership or something because it's just healthy for you. And that's that is fascism you know fascism is I want what's good for you even though you don't want it you know that's what it is you know. And that's interesting there because so first of all when you say. G G B P you enjoy pictures right yeah. Because not everyone is. Yeah. He's quite popular. Right, right. And so. This is a little bit this needs unfolding there because okay if I show you this glass. Yeah, this is a concrete idea this is an idea made concrete. Yeah. Ideas themselves are are usually more or less social for such that they create change. Yeah. But there seems to be there a sort of a shortcut. Yeah, between the idea that we do all have some normative. Ideas of what it is to be in better states and worse states yourself you talk about self actualization. And so you have a some feeling of what it is to be in a better state and the worst state at least for yourself. There is a general idea of what's good and bad right right. And, and so if we come back to count the philosopher Emmanuel count. He actually set the following he said, we, we have all, we can all be made to be explicit of our idea of the good. But in order for that idea to be really ethical. It would need to be universalizable in you would need to be made good for all. Or, at least, it would need to be accepted as good for all and then of course. We know that there are some. Sorry, I just wanted to ask is that is that in a utilitarian sense like that's the imperative. You know, categorical ethics of Kant, category imperative is this idea that you need to wish for your personal code of conduct to be applicable by someone else. Someone else being anyone possible else right. So for example, if you, if you tell yourself, I, I act always in a kindly manner, or I speak always in a kindly manner. Then you think is this can this be made universal universal universal. What so if everyone in the world acts or sticks in a kind manner with that qualify for a better world so those kind of questions. Of course, if you start to impose it on others. Yeah, you're entering the problems but what would it be for example to impose. How could you impose kindness that wouldn't be kind. So in that case, it sort of self destroys right so kindness seems to qualify for something that could be applicable universally. Yeah, and of course we what we know is that I think there are two things that are dangerous is dangerous to think in terms of absolutes, but it's also dangerous to think that it's possible not to think in terms of absolutes. Because we all think in terms, we all belong to a group or or or at least we have an education or we, we have a way of thinking, and it's very difficult for human being not to have to go by absolutes, but those might be implicit right those might be unconscious. For example, people wake up in the morning at at seven and work till six. I mean, most of them at least those who do that, and are pretty okay with it, they tend to think well this is a universal fact that work means waking up at seven or eight and working until six or it's an universal fact that we need to work eight to 10 hours a day and otherwise it's not work is it. So the question is, well the question I was asking you in fact is, what makes you feel closer to paradise because I suppose that that's what you would like to. Yeah, match. If you will elaborate on the question just a little more I think I have an idea but I wanted to be clear what do you mean by what makes me feel closer to. Well, if you want to, let's say if you want to self actualize right. Yeah, probably have an idea that is your own paradise it is your the you know the paradise version of yourself. The ideal version of yourself, you talked about pride and fulfillment. Yeah, right so paradise is a metaphor there. We're not talking about place with angels and we're talking about the place that you find overly optimal. Yeah. Right. Yeah, it's, if I were to say, for example, so you're asking basically what what is my vision for the world sort of thing. What what what do I think a path, like a perfect world looks like or something like that. But at least for yourself, let's start with yourself. Can you name one or two values. Yeah, that would qualify for for you feeling one of that is for me I am quite the creative somebody you know so personal autonomy for me is very important, you know, not being subject to the urban flow of, you know, a nice level in the workplace and so on. So personal autonomy and a feeling of having enough to get by without, you know, I don't know what percentage of people live in paycheck to paycheck and so on. So those are the basic things. And the next would be a sense of community and community where you are interconnected with other other people in meaningful ways, you know, in not just how is the weather in meaningful ways and you know the people look out for you and you look out for them and so on. And at society where people for me personally to live in an environment where you don't have to encounter human suffering. Because for me, we talked about what qualifies as generally good or bad and one thing I know for sure that is bad is people who are experiencing extreme poverty hunger and so on, which they do not want to experience because you can choose to yourself. You know, so that for me it's clearly I think everyone can agree that's for me is universalizable as you say that humans offering that is obvious, you know, like somebody on the street begging not having place to sleep and eat and so on. Really the basic things, you know, but for me, giving my creative tendency, especially now autonomy the space to think to be to create, you know, right. I think that's a good conclusion for our session of today. Yeah, and I would like to reflect on that. And especially how do you combine on the one hand this this creative or self created autonomy on the one hand and the other one hand, the sense of well belonging not only well being but well belonging. So that's another, let's say, dichotomy, but it doesn't mean necessarily that's it's an opposition. But I would like to meditate on that and, and we'll try to get a little bit more precise. Next time, is there okay with you. Yeah, that's fine. Thank you very much for your time and for the session. You're welcome. And so you're still up to posting this on YouTube. Let's do it.