 This next issue absolutely well, I mean I I love it when we have this guest on because he absolutely makes me think he pushes the boundaries of where you Want to go in safety, you know, we always go for the lowest hanging fruit of ideas and Sam Vakman Absolutely stops. I I think he stops that happening now if you've seen online and in newspapers those photographs of Lines and lines of Palestinian men Being huddled together naked The UN has spoken out against this, but the IDF the Israeli Defense Forces have said no these are all Hamas fighters That unraveled when somebody in the States found saw that his uncle who are a relative who was a baker and a 13 year old and a Newspaper saw one of their journalists anyway long story short Four of the people were already Identified as not having nothing to do with Hamas, but what it does is Dehumanize the others and there's lots of ways all sides all sides in war Dehumanize the other side to make it more quote-unquote acceptable for politicians for generals for Etc. Etc. To we have to attack these people and they use terms that Equating these people to these people to beasts and animals Sam Vakman is is Fascinating on this subject and I'm delighted to say joins me now Sam. Thank you so much Just reading doing some research Behind what you're talking about really made me think again Let's talk about some of the ways in war that one side seeks to dehumanize the other and why Always always happy to see you Tricia just for fairness sake the Israeli Defense Force claims that they had to strip these men because they suspected them of Possessing weapons or carrying weapons We'll leave it aside whether these men should have remained stripped and naked for hours And delved right into the topic that you have raised now war is a very interesting phenomenon because It brings out the best in us and it brings out the worst in us where war has been identified for millennia with Musculine positive values such as valor heroism courage overcoming fear Selflessness altruism Self-sacrifice for the greater good and protectiveness These are all absolutely positive values and me in an unmitigated unadulterated way But in order in order to emphasize all these elements of humanity This is what makes us human In order to emphasize them. We need to render the other side a Bit demonic and this is a defense mechanism or psychological defense mechanism known as splitting splitting or dichotomous thinking is When we cast the world in terms of good versus bad Evil versus good black versus white. We are all good The enemy is all bad. So this is known as splitting and the enemy is dehumanized Objectified and demonized in a kind of morality play So the war becomes a kind of a theater production Where there's the bad guy and the good guy the all bad guy and the all good guy and Of course, we are always the good guys. We are never ever the bad guys Now this is yeah kind of it's a kind of role-playing If you give me two two additional minutes, I want to elucidate a few points This is a kind of role-play. It's adversarial. It's rule-based, but it's a game You know when you watch veterans on both sides Meet when they meet after the war They are very convivial. They're very cordial They're like buddies It's exactly the way athletes shake each other's hands After a contest or something so there's a strong element of game or gaming or role-playing in in war Still war is about winning and it's about winning because winning Validates you it validates you as having been chosen It validates you as having been blessed those those of you who believe having been chosen or blessed by God and You know, it's it's very awkward to mention it in this context, but the Nazi SS Had an inscription on its buckles and on its daggers and The inscription was God meet us God is with us What is with us? God with us. Yeah, so Winning the war means that you have been chosen and blessed by God's grace You've been elevated by God. It's a bit of a Protestant thing because Protestants used to believe that if you were successful in business If you were a moneymaker That meant that meant that you were chosen by God. You were blessed by God the same applies to war Yeah, what is it? I was gonna say with I was gonna say as well with politicians though in order for them to get the money for war in order that for them to Validate their decision to go to war Validate the actions that they take they need you not to see the other side as humans who bleed who Cry what have they need? Their constituency to see the other side as either good or bad bad Subhuman and also equate the people with the terrorist Organization for instance or all of the and both sides have done it when we talk about what's happening with with between Gaza and Israel that they all must be this you know, they for instance, they said the settlers All of these settles us. They're not really settlers Israeli settlers They were really IDF or all of those men we stripped They're all Hamas and there's that equating ordinary everyday people with the Boogeyman the monster which then makes it okay for destruction to take place. I Think it's it's great that you raise the issue of politics because I think War is a collective cultural social activity War is a great way to bond it creates bonding War is a great way to foster intimacy Among large swaths of the population War gives rise to identity which is often what we call in psychology negative identity formation It means my identity is everything that you are not I'm defining my identity in contra distinction and in contradiction to who you are We both are mutually exclusive and since I regard myself as human and all good and on the side of God and Ethical and moral you must be the opposite because my identity is the exact negation of yours So desponding the zintimacy this cooperation this innovation War is the greatest engine of an innovation Literally all the technologies we use today have been invented during wartime or by military Organization and that includes the internet So this is it and it's very important to understand that war leads to a new order War is very cathartic. It's a catharsis It's it cleanses. It's kind of a cleansing operation after which There is an opportunity to create something new For example, I think the current conflict between Israel and Hamas Will finally give rise to a Palestinian state. I Think the oh you do I do. I think the Yom Kippur war in 1973 was a prerequisite was a precondition for the peace between Israel and Egypt and later the peace between Israel and Jordan We need war as as an engine of transformation Shumpeter the famous economist called it a creative destruction or creative disruption No, it's very politically incorrect to talk about war in these terms as a positive force. Yes No, I was gonna say but the language that the language as well that is used let's talk about the language because that's frequently used by newspapers to To promote that otherness as well calling the other side beasts or monsters I mean just looking at the you know the brief that you gave me and then I look at the newspapers and you can The scales fall from your eyes when you keep reading various reports from various different sources and the various words that are used to equate the other side with Animals, I mean people the remarks you hear will be like. Oh, well, you know The the the gardens were just living in like animals, you know in in the desert. They weren't very They weren't very developed. There is that Belief against that the more civilized in Western concept the more civilized the society The more I don't know closer to God or they'll be doing the other person a favor Of course, I'm going to be very sensitive to that because Africa was taken over by people who saw everybody in Africa as savages and need to be Educated and we all know that God forbid when the bomb goes off We know who's going to the most civilized people will pass will go first So let's talk about that the language that is used to demonize the other side war war and the language the language of war Has to do with the fantasy space war is a fantasy defense in war you as an individual Become immaculate Become perfect. I mentioned I opened my my Conversation with you by mentioning all the values associated with war heroism courage Protectiveness selflessness altruism self-sacrifice These are positive values. None of them is negative. Not a single one of them So there's a fantasy of who you are which is what we call in psychology and narcissistic fantasy and This is and this fantasy of the individual is a perfect being Protected by God in effect even the SS the Nazi SS believe themselves to be protected by law So under the banner of God You're a perfect being and obviously a society comprised of perfect being Also happens to be a perfect society a city on the hill now you mentioned Gaza for example and This is an excellent an excellent example of how fantasy takes over reality and suppresses it Gazans have the highest literacy rate in all the Arab world Gazans are much more literate and much more highly educated than the Egyptians or the Saudis So Gaza is actually an enclave of learning and erudition in the Arab world. They're definitely not uneducated Peasants or you know, they're exactly the opposite. They are urban most of them are urban So here's an example of how we create in a fantastic space An image of the enemy that has nothing to do with reality that is counterfactual and Then we continue to interact with that image not with the real enemy When we when we kill members of the enemy We are actually playing the video game in our minds and in this video game There's an internal representation of the enemy That is devalued to the maximum to the extreme the humanized demonized Etc. Etc. And this is exactly what happens in the mind of a narcissist The narcissist converts people converts external objects Into internal objects Then the narcissist either idealizes this object or devalues this object But in any case the Nazis is continues to interact with the object Not with the person that they gave rise to know So we could say that war is a narcissistic activity Absolutely, it's about narcissism No wonder that war is very antisocial and there are many psychopathic behaviors in war Yes Absolutely Sam always brilliant talking with you. Are you still I just wanted to check how you are I wanted to say although it's a very troubled times. Happy Hanukkah Um, thank you. And are you have you have you been able to get back to Israel or you're still no I haven't been there for too long. I I intend to go back next year. Hopefully when the fighting abates I did I served in the Israeli army for three and a half years. I was in infantry and then in the Air Force So I know war intimately including urban warfare. Yeah, I've been involved in open. I know war intimately There is no, yeah, no more hideous spectacle than war All these values that are attributed to war. That's post-fucked on nonsense War is dirty and ugly Dirty and ugly period. There's nothing else there Sam. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for speaking with us today Always fascinating to talk with you and get another point of view and get people thinking Sam vacuum in there