 Welcome back. Nice walk in the sun. Nice and humid for a Riverland day. Exactly, that's what I thought you'd say. Right, we're going to do a panel session here. Questions answers your questions, they answer it. That's how this is going to work. The people who are up here, you've already met Ollie, Andy and Peter. We also have Ben, Brett and David. What I want to do is for Ben, Brett and David just to give you a minute each to very quickly introduce yourself. Rather than me do it and get it wrong, I'll let you guys do it. Ben, if you want to go first. Yeah, get over it. My name is Ben Wibbler and I'm an Industry Development Officer with the ABA. Our primary role is really to represent the peak body at a grower level, state level, national and international level. We do that by liaising with government bodies in our R&D programs, whether that be on the ground here with the ag tech companies. We have investment going with SARDI, Plant Health Australia and our primary role really is to drag all that research back to the growers and try and get adoption on farm. So that's I guess a quick overview. Well done, I love it. Less than 60 seconds, that's the best. Brett, I'm going to do you next. So microphone there from five minutes down the road. Testing 125. Right, I'm Brett Proud from Lockston North, so only a few minutes away. My family's been farming here for very nearly 100 years. My grandfather was involved in the construction of the Humphrey Pump over at Cobb Doggler and when that was completed came over to Lockston North and helped construct the first two steam driven pumps on the river back in the early 1920s. So I did have a professional career for over 20 years and I've been back here on the land on the farm for approximately 20 years now. Our family business is called Sherwood Estates and it's actually has a quite unique business structure. It does mirror Bullaburra, if you're familiar with Bullaburra, the broad acre operations here in the Riverland and Malley. We now operate 200 hectares of vineyards on 10 vineyards just here and we've just gone through an internal restructure which I won't go through all the nitty-gritty details but we have family, all those assets being operated by Sherwood Estates, the company on behalf of all the family owners of the property. So that's been very very successful. I have just recently retired as the past chair of the Riverland Wine Great Grows Association which I had been for three previous years and I've been on the Riverland Wine Great Grows Association and Riverland Wine for the last 11 years. So you know I've sort of contributed, our businesses contributed a significant amount to representing you know the farmers of the region. I was also a member of the Wine Grape Council in a number of roles for I don't know five or six years so again I've sort of contributed at that level as well. That's on the farm stuff. A few years ago Pears were invested a fair bit of money into a project called, I forget, establishing a model for a cluster of premium grapegrows in the Riverland, something like that. Anyway that went through to the end and the people involved in that actually didn't materialize into a cluster itself. But one of the other people involved and me having very very similar family situations so multiple brothers over 200 hectares, 6,000 tons we thought well you know so much of what we do is on the same page. So along with their independent chair because believe it or not that family is actually a collaborative farming venture as well modeled off of ours. So we have a independent chair who's the same person and we also engage them to be the independent chair of Riverwine Collaboration which this year will be a 20,000 tonne wine and grape business. So the two shareholding families and the nine other families sell all of their wine grapes to Riverwine Collaboration which then sits down and works out what we do. So we sell grapes as grape right through to making wine etc. So you know if you talk about irrigation our family's been here right from you know the construction of the Humphrey Pump and the steam driven pumps and we've been farming 80 hectares now for nearly 100 years. So a fair bit of family history right here in the district and in irrigated agriculture. Well done cramming that much into two minutes. 100 years worth into two minutes. Well done. We've got the two minutes. That's alright you've done well I'll get you for that later on. And David you're a couple of introduction please. Yeah I'm David Zadow, I grew up Blashtown, one great grow up Blashtown. Similar to actually Brett my great-grandfather settled there in 1896 and put a steam pump in and flutter irrigated all the property that's above the lock that before the lock was in. So that's we've had land there since then. A lot of farming been in grapes for 60 years and yeah it's probably probably about 20 or 17 years ago when we converted to drip from overhead irrigation. That's when I really started my automation egg tech journey and I suppose a lot of those things have sort of come along the way a lot sort of trying to get things that I couldn't get off the shelf. So we had to sort of get a few smart people along the way to help me out and get a few things and now there's a lot of products out there that actually can do what I couldn't do then that I was able to do. So it's really exciting, it's good to be part of the vidiviser as well. Finding that's really good and yeah just yeah and things like this are always very good. Excellent all right cool. So there the introductions out of the way, it's time for some questions. Now when we wrapped up the last session with with Pete I did cut Mark off and he wanted to make a comment there. So to make to make good on that Mark I know you just want to make a comment but I'll let you go. My comment was simply that the precision irrigation down to maybe individual trees or at least small areas is being researched and developed. It's pretty messy at the moment but it's something that is on the cards where it'll go who knows. Right no worries Mark. I didn't want to get that in because it was worthwhile mentioning as well. Pete do you want to talk to that though? I mean I know the question was individual plants and irrigating them and as Mark says it's still a little bit messy but is it are we getting better at it? Are we making advances here? I would be the least knowledgeable person on that subject going at the moment. Brett do you want to jump in there then instead? Yeah I can add a little bit. With our operations for now four years we've used all the GPS auto steer digital mapping whole box and dice on our 200 hectares. Part of that is actually digital mapping of our yield. So in essence every meter of our property is is filed away and and what we do is we actually use that data to then prescription spread our nutrients. So during the winter time now you know association with our agronomist who will then work out a blend we then go through the whole 660 kilometers where the rate that is distributed is dependent on the yield data. So as each year goes we'll just use layer upon layer upon layer of that data to then determine what our prescription spreading will be with nutrients. So in a way we are doing it vine by vine I'm not sure that it regulates that quickly because we actually do the yield doesn't vary that much but if I had a yield map of 2020 and a yield map of 2021 it's just so incredibly obvious that the evenness of yield across the patches is so much better. So it's quite remarkable. Andy obviously you want to jump in here? Yeah really it perhaps an observation from somebody who is measuring stuff down at the pervine or per plant level and what our clients are asking for us in terms of deliverables out of that and so two things come to mind one is for companies that are looking for robotics and automation well they actually do want to know the precise location of every single post because that matters in terms of where an autonomous tractor is going to go as compared to somebody who's putting out a variable rate of mulching then you know five or ten meters is probably okay they don't really need to go down to that pervine level also it kind of comes back to this point earlier about it depends on the problem. Any questions you might have? Yep Hans Loder from Penlia State in Canawara but the question sort of in the context of I'm a 2021 Northfield scholar looking into data management for viticulturalists and I sort of look at this individual plant or unit mapping creating the digital infrastructure to actually manage the data do you think it's that will in itself lead to more growers asking for this prescription farming down to the individual vine or unit plant and similarly do you think there's just not the critical massive growers who even realize that it's possible already in my mind to do that and therefore just not asking for that solution. Who'd like to have a crack at this one? Hans yeah we probably talked a little bit about this last week and certainly Collaboracultures talked a lot about this and I think the observation around that would be that it's a bit of both I think in our own mind in terms of what we do or the tools we've developed we've really only had that model for six months so we haven't had an opportunity to go out fully to market yet and talk about the benefits of that type of approach so yeah it's probably a little bit of both and then I come back to my earlier observations around well what are you trying to fix if it's spray applications in a particular crop type that's probably going to look a little bit different in viticulture to what it would do in orchards and so really trying to formulate through well what's what's the solution to the problem and where does that super precision come into play and where doesn't it and I think that example of the guys who are coming out with autonomous robots well it's super important you want to know you're not going to crash into something. David yeah Hans I think from my perspective being a single operator with another worker that works half a day a week I know my vineyard I've known it for 25 years I know it pretty well recently I had Sarah's imaging come and do some imaging after a frost we had and I know that I've got weak spots and I know where they are and I know that if I focus on just them I'll increase my yield by five percent so that's more macro but then when I got the data back from the imaging I'm going maybe I underestimate it maybe it's more like 15 percent so I really actually should put some more urgency into focusing on those weak spots which is purely just getting higher pressure or putting extra valves in I have all these things in the shed I just haven't prioritized putting them in but I can see that it's going to actually make an instant result to my yield if I put it in sooner rather than later to get extra pressure to the end of the drip line so I get the extra water there and get the extra yield all things I've known things I haven't thought were as important but now I do once I get that then I could probably start to worry about that Mac that really micro level per vine but at the moment just some data just to get you started to you know focus on the big stuff get on top that makes a big financial impact and then you can go to the other stuff oh I think just building on it as well that I think we all know the sustainability waves hitting us pretty hard at the minute and it's a pretty certain reality that water prices have go up fertilizer prices are already up you know grow is it going to have to put things exactly where they need to be so I think it's more of a reality than a question just at the minute but you know the curve of the the early adopters and the innovators and that sort of thing you know I think that'll that'll kick in pretty pretty quickly Brett sorry yeah my point was going to be I think there's some other questions which lead on with that and it comes back to and hopefully my blood pressure doesn't get too high but I suppose my disappointment in this whole environment and context is that we've actually forgotten that the work that all the innovators are doing should be based on the problems that are identified in the co-design of the whole issue of I was on Riverland wine management committee for over 11 years and I can't recall once any anybody coming to an industry representation body saying what do you think of the problems that your industry faces that we need solutions for so to then in a way be confronted by today where we have people trying to sell the solutions I family believe we haven't invested any time in a genuine search for the problems now I'm not undermining the technology all I'm saying is that the tech the money invested into the research would have been better placed solving problems which were real and if you then go to the extension and or the adoption and extension of the technology that will then become automatic if it's solving identified problems so you don't actually have to go and sell the technology on the hope that you find a problem because you know that you will have solved a problem so you know you're right about early adopters I mean you don't have to convince me about technology I mean I own a 200 hectare well half a 200 hectare vineyard and we've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into technology so I'm not anti-technology but what scares me right at the moment with our business is that I'm staring at a rabbit warren of technology so unless we get vidivisa or some digital platform which can collect all the data process it and then use use the data that comes out of that why why would my nephew who's in essence our tech guy on the property add to his 26 apps I mean having 36 apps it means he's going to do less work and sit there and look at his phone so unless we coordinate the technology we're just going to disappear down into a rabbit warren and I'm not sure that we're going to be any better off Brett I think you've touched on what Oli Andy and Peter were talking about this morning as well Oli I think you covered this as well but before I ask Oli to respond to what you just said what is the gap what where are the gaps at the moment is there too much data is it wrong data is it not being integrated properly maybe David you could comment on this as well after Brett I'll let you yeah I think there's two gaps one the lack of co-design right from day one right I've so the analogy is here we've got a lot of people going around putting really flash things on the roof of the building unfortunately we don't have good walls and foundations to the building so the stakeholders the growers those that contribute taxes levies contributions etc need to be showing the respect for the contribution to the industry and so their needs are met so actually having a good co-design effort and you've got to invest time and effort in it doesn't happen overnight and just asking me's not the solution to that either to me from our business I believe the biggest handbrake to our business is not on farm tech I reckon we've got that sorted with some really good relationships with with the tech people that's not ideal we need to take it further with a vitiviser model but I think the other major gap is our government and industry compliance systems right that's what is the handbrake to the real efficiency of the wine industry national nationally I mean we've got Dave sitting down there he knows how I feel about it the fact that when we have a fruit fly outbreak you know we bring out B doubles and pallet loads of A4 sheets of paper where you've got to write your name and address and your property number down you know a hundred times that should be instantaneous through a digital framework the same thing with the wine industry when we're sitting in a harvester at the middle of the night I should be able to get on the phone and have a live stream of how much Shiraz has been crushed nationwide why not why haven't we got blockchain technology in the freight of our fruit from our properties to the winery and then right through traceability to the consumer so I think that is a huge gap it may be rude enough to suggest the reason that that's a gap is that probably the people trying to get a commercial return on the technology see less of an opportunity in that area rather than going around and selling a new widget so please don't take offense David I'll get a couple of comments from you then I'll come to you Ollie I suppose I just based on my experience with all the apps that I have and the ones that I use and don't use for me I I guess a good example of a nap that I don't use very often that use the other night is I've got batteries on my house and I've got a portal which I can monitor that on I might have looked at three months ago I've seen they're watching TV I've got a message on my phone it's like oh it's from my batteries I thought what's that about and the power gone off it clicked over didn't know then I could get the portal up show the kids they could watch how much power they're using make sure we had enough power to get through the night all of those sort of things but then now I won't go to look at that app for another three months but when I needed it it let me know notified me and I could keep keep an eye on it and I suppose with a lot of my other apps like basically I just had to set one up is control my web I use that daddy when I'm where I can see my pressures I can see all the things I need flows if a valve's been working or not I guess I go to a lot of apps constantly but a lot of them I don't go to that I probably would like to go to but then I have one for my solar panels that emails me every day with a bar graph and I can see that okay some of the inverters didn't work check them tomorrow make sure they're working if they're fine and I just delete it straight away but it's a very simple quick visual thing and that's how I get across those things but the things that aren't quick and simple I miss and sometimes I don't get on top of them so if it could be a very effective form of notification that just tells you when you need to because if you keep getting bombarded with notifications you just ignore them all that's the sort of app I think that that would be utilized although you were talking about this this morning is you know the integration of it and I even Andy touched on it as well is it a case of too many apps doing too many different things for all too many apps doing all the same thing um I was gonna can I ask but you know some of the points that Brett raised if I could start there I would um yeah agree with so much that that that co-design piece like it's the reason that like we often do our meet-ups in lot 14 in Adelaide which is like the the government sort of hub for technology and like that's a a long way actually off away from the farming community and we've been really conscious over the last couple of years of getting developers out and on the farm and really hearing first hand like what people like actually seeing what jobs farmers have to do and hearing first hand from them like generally what's painful so totally agree there the best time we've ever done with platform we've had help like um tail tailors uh up in Claire were like our co-design partners and the best time I've spent is with the grumpest tractor driver operator in the world I sat with him in the jump seat next to him and you get to watch him trying to use he's been at that that vineyard for 20 odd years and he doesn't want to use platform he really doesn't he thinks it's big brother on him and watching him trying to use platform and getting him like his feedbacks invaluable and again we one of our like drivers is trying to get if we could ever get to a point where he feels platform is invaluable to him with one and so I totally agree that is the best time spent I would agree as well when you look at the the missing piece of the puzzle at the moment in the agtech ecosystem in wine um if we can get some of the industry reporting tools like we we all have to link into spray diary software we've got sustainability platforms and if those platforms can be open to receive data from other sources that is going to overnight create a viable digital ecosystem and that being closed literally just is the biggest handbrake on any innovation at the moment and again tons of stuff that is also useful for developers to um like you know like simple stuff we did like just um the list of grape varieties that exist in Australia there's like however many hundred odd grape varieties yeah you know when you're a developer and you're like oh what should I go and build where should I build it and you go and think oh I like wine I should go and try and build something in wine you spend weeks and weeks and weeks trying to just spin up the basic information that's needed to build something in wine because can you find in anywhere like the list of all the great varieties from a kind of author like a proper author authority in a usable way for you like after months we find it's in a pdf document locked away unreadable un but again there are any little baby steps but we've we've got wine Australia to publish that on github now in an open way so we start to make it usable but I I totally agree um that's like for me from the outside the biggest step and the opportunity cost of not having a viddy visor or such single uh digital platform is you don't have the data to benchmark so you know we've got sustainable winemaking Australia um again you know you've just got to go and fill out more a4 sheets of paper put your name and address and this and that and power yeah oh my gosh you know I'm just repeating all of this whereas if you had your single digital platform where every single bit of input went into your operation for the year um at the end of the year you go through your files find your you know your swa audit button push it and in you know two seconds you know you should have an audit done so that's a a good example of you know the lack of benchmarking capacity because we haven't had those digital platforms and so just in case I forget people everyone there's a few people laughing because they know that when I turn meetings like this I pull out this battered copy of a document that the federal government commissioned and EY produced it in 2019 I think if you're in this space and you haven't read this and you don't understand it and you don't believe in it get out of the tent because it is so obvious that you know agriculture has been so siloed through history technology has been siloed through history and we've had a very very inefficient expenditure of monies on technology and as a consequence we have inefficient farmers all because of siloing fantastic chapter in there on the case for change it's as obvious as anything and I think until our government departments like perza and saati etc read it understand it and actually have policies which back it up um you know we're going to be 20 years down the track with no data to benchmark things and we'll be having the same conversation again is it that the information or the um the data that's coming out is being held in a proprietary way rather than an open source way is that more the issue here brett's nodding ollie's not sure is that is that the problem that it's not able to be shared is that the drama here um I'd say that the you know in that that like little diagram you know the kind of storming forming norming like like the world of the agtech ecosystem so is definitely moving towards um better specified data so it's kind of more interoperable like we're not leading the world in australia I would agree like New Zealand is get is really super good at the moment of being really really joined up and they they basically have been working um not to try and make all of the data of agriculture in New Zealand go into one single super platform um but all they're trying to do is is help all of their ecosystem just to kind of coalesce around the structure of when digital information moves space especially spatial digital information moves between all of all these different people in this world they're just trying to make sure that the file format the um that is used to move that information everybody understands basically the structure of that file format and and uh and they've got like momentum because a load of really progressive people in New Zealand are adopting that file format and it's starting to work and it's only success breeds success I agree at the moment it's not there but these are all these kind of really they're not very sexy bits of work to do at all they're very dull but they're they're the foundations of what you can actually build like a house on uh yeah and I think an example of where that is required is that six of the major machinery manufacturers in Europe um have decided to get there and simplify or unify their digital uh platform so you know claus john dear etc instead of all running their own systems have now agreed to unify their system so they obviously see that a critical mass of a of a system is worth it and that's the run the risk we run as a business is if if we go and change the color of our tractor what the hell do we do for data peter can i get you to jump in and on here very quickly too we just get a microphone down to peter just uh because you're in the research space here and you know there's different platforms that you would work with as well you showed the dashboard earlier how does it all work for you like do you get it all to integrate properly or is that are there gaps in there like the it's still quite fragmented at the moment so um basically swans probably the best one at the moment for joining things together from various uh instruments that are on place and that's quite uh an admiral's way to be looking at it so that we're trying to get rid of the siloing that's going on some of the stuff that i like that's quite good is very solidly locked down on the intellectual property side of things so that's definitely going to be a hampering issue as we go down further i think as like new zealand's doing that there is an undercurrent that with if we're all independent we will all fail so the the collaborative idea of trying to bring in underlying structure and whether or not it's an overlying platform for the display of the data or an uh an overlying way of capturing the data that can be then um open coded open source to whoever needs it it's it's an evolving thing um i do believe we really are at baby steps with this uh it's something i've seen in uh 20 odd years ago with the idea of things like you know like intellectual property on germplasm it's very similar except it's technical information and it's very discreet stuff it's really hard work to get to the nuts and bolts of it it's um something that you invest a lot of time and money into and of course you want to return on it so uh if you do it in isolation yes you've got a chance you may make a return uh if there's an uptake of your particular product this is probably a naive way of looking at it but it's basically a case of that we have to have a paradigm shift here where if there's can be a start to where the underlying structure is there that if you are going to do this then there's a format to do that in and that we can share that across platforms we will grow together so i do believe it's it's it's starting to roll down the hill we'll see where it goes and it's it's going to be a real paradigm shift away from the idea of private technical information and knowledge that's going to make you profit it has to be a collaborative affair that we all win at some stage i can't tell you what that product looks like yet it's it's an emergent thing um i'm sort of right at the bottom of where i've got everybody's equipment and all their programs so and i'm sifting through it and like you say you don't want you know another 26 apps on your phone so and i'm already starting to make that judgment of what's practical and useful for this and that and the other and maybe sometimes we need to sit down as groups and then i can run over hurdles i have you guys can run over hurdles you have and we start to make that difference yes question down the back there i'm going to go against this cooperative thing if you look at history go back for 30 years computers were going from buildings that size behind us to suddenly sitting on desks and what happened to the technology we probably had about 15 different computer brands that came out and none of them spoke to each other so it's almost like we're in that situation now with agtech you know everyone's doing bits and pieces and we're looking for collaboration but what happened in evolution in technology is that we had things like microsoft then became to the table and won the race and became very profitable and a very large company now so we all use excel we don't use multi mate that never talked to excel we don't use all the other spreadsheets that were out there the same thing happened to apple they nearly went broke but then i think microsoft chucked in two million dollars saved them and now they're the company they are today and they've got that ecosystem between hardware and software and if you reflect on that it's in fact it was business that drew drove that how does business work well it looks at the needs of the community and looks at providing those needs and gets their wealth from that then to go on to further development none of those government was involved in so i suspect it's going to be a race with the technology there might be amalgamation of technology so that they can then become more financially viable and that'll be where we'll be in about five ten years time but we're not there now interesting thoughts any other you want to respond to that yeah thanks mike i think that's a really um a really really good perspective and you can feel you can feel it playing out right at the moment as well it's like the it's the thing that's quietly happening behind the scenes so everybody's like we work at this level and then at a different level there is this maneuvering between um aws uh and google and microsoft specifically all looking at how they can basically be the lead tech company and hitachi actually probably a little bit be the lead tech company when it comes to kind of world agricultural data and it's a really interesting um and and and people like aws are very quietly everywhere so when you're at lot 14 which we're we're based there's a load of aws people in the adelaide institute machine learning next door they are everywhere so much stuff sits on their platforms and it's a really interesting both opportunity and challenge for agriculture and grower groups and everything is like how do we um both hopefully make some that could be a really positive relationship or that could be not a very positive relationship uh but it is happening and again on the data side there's this again the federal government with kpmg's doing a thing called the aws agritech data platform or something like that and it's like that's big consultancies with multimillion dollar budgets working with federal government looking at you know like piloting loads of tech out the people that they will work with are going to be almost certainly hitachi google you know that that so yeah it's it's funny yeah two things working in parallel at different levels of the system here in in ag and yeah i think they will they will come into our world a lot in the next couple of years yeah right um i will point out lunch is just arriving so we'll do a couple more questions if you have one we do have one just over the side here yeah uh me again only i've probably got this question's probably directed at you a bit um in your experience in taking developers out to meet producers um something i've observed is this this ideal of wanting like having the problem and then wanting the solution and not having to deal with the steps in between now something i'm observing is is just how quickly the tech space is moving i mean like as a producer you know we've all just got our heads around what a shape file is and now it's all evolving to json files like how is how how can producers keep up without a translator needing to be involved in the conversation um yeah again yes you're absolutely right like everything is um is transitioning really quickly um it's not really i well i hope it will start to see it happen more here but there definitely feels like there is a need for like you know you get entrepreneurs in residents and all that thing that happens like we need things like developers in residents in rural places my co-founder lindsay she's been a real she works for one of the like mid north rda and she's been really trying to she's not yet got it over the line but she's been really trying to push that there's really great um zanes here who's a really awesome person who is local uh just finishing high school um doing some really exciting work and like just talking to him at the break he really needs developers here in loxton that he can engage with uh and again i you know you can feel it with certain farming enterprises they're going to need that level of resources to be able to call upon so um yeah in a really interesting challenge but it's not um yeah that doesn't function yet at the moment and farmers are completely at the kind of most you're very different hands as somebody knows this space technically very well but most everyday farmers really are very much at the behead there at the end of the chain uh yeah and it's it'll be very easy for them to be led in a not a positive direction where they're kind of ending up getting kind of hooked and locked into a certain tech stack and all kinds of things could happen over the next couple years yeah um Ben yeah way go so only that's a you know really interesting point it's how we get from a to b you know that journey of actually um the farmers that are keen to be involved in this technology not being lost and once people get bitten and go i've sort of gone down this path been led astray sunk 50 grand into that burnt it geez you know and it's it's quite hard so i think one of the pivotal questions is how we actually take willing producers who want to be part of this to get clear viable information and obviously loxton's part of that but how do you see um that the producer has an ability to filter that information coming through and to understand where best to hitch their wagon beware people secondary agendas that's what you get so often like everybody when you start to unpick it like has a secondary often has a secondary objective to move you as a producer in a certain direction and it's um when we worked with perso and wine australian did the mapping stuff we really purposefully built bought on board this guy called john bryant and john bryant um he's an open source gis developer one of the best in the world and like we bought him into that project so that he was an honest broker for platform and for and for um green brain who we were two people very easily we could have taken that project in our own in our own way for our own game not that we would but we had john there keeping us basically honest and he he runs like the fossil geeks like the open mapping event for the whole world and then we had people coming and talking to us who basically run the open source um things like um like open street maps which is the open source platform which powers like that google maps on your phone and stuff we had that level of people coming to talk to us who all come from from that open world and yeah just at the moment i would look you know um and it's good with viti visor looking to um publish an open source a lot of that work if yeah the more we can keep things open and and look for things that already have critical mass so again you'll often get pushed towards somebody's like helping somebody build their own little widget and if you see that happening my my what i would do is is is and what we've done is we've looked for where is the critical mass at the moment where's the gravity so in mapping that is things like open street maps there's a mapping platform called map box that tons and tons and tons of things leverage and we we think that the future of mapping in wine will leverage the mapping platforms which like power the world streets and power the world like everything and we just kind of that if we could place our bet anywhere we'd place our bet on the things that have the most gravity the best developer ecosystem are open and like yeah that that's where we place our money and i and i totally couldn't understand like so many people won't have had yet a positive experience um and we need to learn from that it's really hard but again a lot of startups are realizing that they have in agriculture are realizing that they have to like build build their widgets on top of these things it's like a paradigm shift and again it's sort of you know in that model it's like the paradigm shift that that has to happen people have to go through that dip sadly to start to to come out the other side only when you've everything's gone wrong isn't it that you work out what you should do like yeah i only work out what to do i only learned how to be a great grower by literally stuffing up everything and that's the only way i've i've learned and and it feels the same way with tech just to quickly add on to that i think almost as a couple of take home messages make sure you own your own data absolutely critical so if we start right at the bottom of the pile there's all this evolution in technology and software and all the rest of it but fundamentally make sure you own your own data and then secondly make sure that you can use it on whatever other platform comes along so this issue about interoperability is absolutely critical so if you end up with a bunch of data that you do own but it's locked into a certain service provider well it's not much good for you on the next platform that comes along has been the best since sliced bread so to speak so yeah two really critical things own it and make sure that you can use it cross-platform ben yeah i think in relation to your comment then i've heard a lot innovation is easier than adoption probably a bit of a pessimistic opinion but probably a bit of a reality as well so i think it probably comes down to a bit of an education game and collaboration with the agtech companies and peak bodies like ourselves and the research orchard here the one just out looks at north with us and start to bring growers in so that way you know it doesn't people don't get lost in the funnel of losing 50 grand or something to you know something that wasn't quite there so i think it's not just the agtech companies that need to be pushing it out i think it's yeah a collaborative approach between industry growers and ourselves excellent any final comments from anybody before we wrap up i know everyone's keen for lunch all right round of applause please for our panel