 So please let me say thank you, thank you, thank you to all of our presenting sponsors. You see their logos right there in front of you and we are so grateful to have them in our corner and so grateful to know that they are also in each and every one of your corners elevating your mission, supporting you and the efforts you're taking to elevate your causes around the globe. So please go find them online, give them a thumbs up, some love, like them, follow them, because they are liking and following all that you are doing. So don't miss your opportunity there. Julia, thank you for creating this. Julia Patrick is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I am so grateful to serve alongside you Julia. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the Nonprofit Nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And today by popular demand and by vibrancy with the color, we have Tony Bell back joining with us with Fundraising Academies. So Tony is the Senior Director, Office of Program Administration with National University. Welcome back, Tony. Great, thank you so much. You know, I look forward to this so much. So it's the highlight of my day. I can't tell you, can't even tell you. Well, you know, we're so excited. A, we all have to hold up our mugs because we have our Fundraising Academy mugs. We do. We get so excited to have you on because what you talk about is central to all of our nonprofits that watch us, who, you know, send their questions to us. It's really one of those critical things. And we complain about it. If you joined us on the Chitty Chat Chat this morning, we were talking about it. And yet when I'm with you and talking through this process of cause selling, I'm like, it is natural. It's organized. It's positive. It's not arm twisting. It's sustainable. You know, and so we are today finishing up phase two. So what I love about this is that if you're just joining us for the first time, you can go back to our archive. You can find us on Roku, Amazon Fire TV, our Vimeo channel, AmericanNonprofitAcademy.com, theNonprofitsShow.com, YouTube. We're out there. And so you can get back to us at any point. But today, it's going to be really interesting, Tony, to talk to you about this because this particular episode is all going to be dedicated to objections. In the most positive way. I was about to say, what a downer, right? But yes, that's so great. So we've gone through, and all of you can see right now on your screen. Hopefully you'll see the wheel right there. And that's what we're working on. Today is objections as they relate to your cause selling initiatives. So I'm looking forward to this. Objections are not easy to handle. So for us to spend 45 minutes on this, and again, those of you joining us, we do go extra with Tony. And so just be mindful of that with your timing. Let's jump right in there to what are the types of objections that we need to be aware of? So within our cause selling curriculum, we talk about these four specific types of objections that you may encounter. And so when we're talking about objections, this is really during the point in your cause selling cycle in your relationship with your potential donor where you are now giving your presentation, you are making your pitch. So during that conversation, any one of these four types of objections may actually arise during that conversation. So one of them that we talk about is the stall. So you're having a good conversation. You're giving your presentation. You might ask a question, and you notice that the potential donor is really just kind of stalling, like just that awkward silence, avoiding making a decision. I'm just like stressed out by thinking about this. You know? So what does that tell you? A stall might mean that you haven't given them the information that they are looking for. A stall might mean that they've asked you a question and your answer wasn't really what they were looking for or wasn't as complete as they were hoping to hear from you. So ways around that is if you have that stall, ask another question, ask a relevant question. And we're going to go through some ways to respond to objections that will help you later on in our chat today to help you with these types of objections. But really, that's what the stall is. It's you either have an answer to question, right? They're uneasy about some piece of information that you've provided. So the only way around that is to ask more questions and to really focus in on the relationship that you've developed with them up to this point to get them over the stall. Now, may I ask, Tony, if we're asking additional questions, are these also open-ended questions that we've talked about before? Yes, absolutely. I think that's a great point of clarity. Yes, whenever possible. And we're going to talk about this as well. You want to engage your potential donor in conversation because you want to listen more than you talk, right? So I'm so glad you mentioned that open-ended questions are really, really important. So that's really kind of what the stall is all about. The searcher is that individual that just wants more information. That's really just what they want. They just want more. So they may ask you questions that take a deeper dive than you're used to going with a potential donor at this stage in the relationship. It may mean that they have some, we're going to segue into this, it may mean that they have some hidden objections that you're not aware of yet. So they're just searching for more information before they make it really apparent to you that there's an objection or what that objection might be. So that's really what the searcher is all about, that type of objection, where they're not giving you an answer yet, they're just continuously asking, searching for more information. And really, anything that continues a conversation, we want to embrace. Love that. Well, and I think this is like when you just said this, I mean, you've got to be listening. And if you listen to what those questions are, I would think that's going to unlock a lot of doors. So then the hidden objection. Yeah, so the hidden objection is typically a little more difficult to identify and overcome because they haven't made it so apparent. A hidden objection too. So again, we're talking about relationships. So we've built a relationship with this individual before we're at this point, we're actually making a presentation and then ultimately making an ask. Something could have changed along that relationship journey. When you first met them because of your pre-approach and your pre-work, you identified them as a potential large donor because of assets. By the time you get to that, something might have changed there. Something could have changed in the family dynamic where your cause was something that they were super passionate about until this circumstance happened within their family or with a friend. And now all of a sudden their passion is shifting because they've seen how X, Y and Z has impacted family or friend, right? So those are some of the hidden, just a few examples, there are many of some of the hidden objections that you might come across again that are much more difficult to identify. And again, it just comes with asking more, just asking more questions. You may see a hidden objection because just something that you said or answered doesn't really make sense to the potential donor. So they object to that but they're not even really sure what they're objecting to. They know it doesn't really make sense but they're not even really sure yet what it is specifically that they're objecting to. So those are really challenging when you have those types of hidden objections. That's again where you really have to lean in heavily to the relationship that you've developed. And you have to remind yourself really very clearly of who is this person that's sitting across from me or on my Zoom screen that I'm giving this presentation to and really reminding yourself of who they are as an individual. Okay, curve ball. Okay, here we go. I know, curve ball. Okay, so in this time, and Jared and I have kind of talked about this off camera but in this time of a lot of political differences and shifting of what we think of, does that, like how do you protect yourself or navigate those things so that while you talk about your cause, you maybe pull back a little bit on what your personal views are or because I almost think about maybe if this is where that could come in, if somebody's like, oh, wow, they're really conservative. Oh, wow, they're really liberal or oh, wow, you know, does that come into that? Is that where we might see this? I think that's a really great question. Yeah, number one, I think you're, it's not so much of a curve ball because you're going to identify those things in your potential donor early on because you're building the relationship, right? So by the time you get to this piece of the cycle where you're giving a presentation, you know enough about them to know, you know, maybe you don't put up in your presentation, you don't include a picture of your CEO with a Democrat or affiliated, right? In a picture with any particular political party, right? You may not include, you know, your organization is proud of that and you should be, right? That kind of support is remarkable. But if during the journey of getting to know your donor, you realize that they're highly sensitive to political topics, then you want to make sure that in your presentation you're not including that picture that you may be very proud of because it may be a trigger for the potential donor. Okay, you hit that one out of the park. Did I do okay with that one? That's good. Okay, thank you. Because I was really thinking about that. How does this work? Okay, now the stopper. Okay, so the stopper really, their objection just has no satisfactory answer. There, that's really the one where you say, I've enjoyed meeting this individual, I've taken them as far as I can go in the cycle and you just thank them for their time. Maybe, you know, leave the door open for you to come back to them at a later date. You know, this really is where you have to trust what it is that you know about the donor. You have to evaluate your bandwidth. To what degree do I continue to invest in Jarrett? I know you have a great act, right? It's the return on. Relationship. There we go, right? So, so, you know, and you as the professional then need to determine, am I done, right? Was this really a deal stopper? Or are they really giving me an opportunity to come back at a later date? If it is a deal stopper, you thank them so much of course for their time. You thank them for their interest in philanthropy. We want to encourage them to give, right? Because we love the nonprofit sector. We love the work that organizations do outside of the work that our organization does. So at a minimum, let's lift up the sector. And if they're not gonna give to us, let's still make sure they have a great experience so that they're encouraged to give somewhere else. You know what? I love that answer because I, just like you, Tony, just like Julia, probably so many of you watching, I love the sector. And I truly want everyone to have positive experiences as often as possible. One of the tactics I've used in the stopper conversation, Tony, and I wonder if this is applicable or are you've seen it within the cycle? And again, it really depends on the person, you know, me in this reference, having the conversation with the potential donor is asking very directly, you know, is this something that you would like to continue conversation on? Would you like for me to continue, you know, reaching back out to you or is this no longer a priority or a fit that you would like for me to stop, you know, conversation? So I've asked that before and, you know, it's really fascinating because it's a very, it provides the opportunity of a very black and white. And I think it's very respectful. Yeah, that's a great word. That's a really good word. Okay, so you've kind of given us some ideas as to what that might look like, some structures when we talk about that. Now we want to talk about the six steps to handling objections. And this is what I think is really fascinating because I love the scenarios that you gave us before, but what are some tools of taking this journey? So objection number one, the first strategy. Yeah, so one way to deal with an objection is to listen. Right? So really, really take time to listen to your donor. Do not interrupt them. Do whatever you can to not interrupt your donor. Also along those lines, please do not finish a potential donor sentence for them. Right? So really listening in, and as you listen observing, cause you can even do it on Zoom, right? Observing body language, observing facial expressions, right? Observing reactions. That's part of listening, right? It's the listening of the verbal, it's the listening of the non-verbal. So that gives you an opportunity to do that. It also shows respect to a, you know, again, to the potential donor that you care about what they have to say. So one way again, you know, to overcome objections is just to listen. Ask a question, be very genuine and interested in an answer, and pay attention to the body language. Tony, was this you or like Tony Robbins that I heard this from, but it was, it was listen to understand. Don't listen to respond. Absolutely. Right? Was that you that I heard this from? No, I don't know that I can, or it's one of those things that just rolled out of my, you know, mouth that, you know, I say and forget, but it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, listen to understand, don't listen to respond. I also love that you said, and I'm going to say, you know, quote this from Tony Bell, I'm writing it down now, is do not finish their sentences. Cause you can truly take that in a completely different direction than what they were going to say. And I think we've all experienced that, maybe not in this specific situation, but with a friend or a family member. It's like, no, that wasn't where I was going. Well, I love your next one. So really talking to us about, okay, once we listen to our donor and we hear them out, the second is to confirm your understanding. Now, what I'm hearing you say is really a therapy kind of response, right? So you listen to the donor and then you repeat back to them to say, Julia, what I'm hearing you saying is you're very passionate about X, Y and Z and you and your partner would consider a gift of this size. Am I understanding, you know? Reiteration, that's exactly, yes, is to reiterate what you've heard in your own words, right? Don't feel like you have to. And I think that that's important too, because when you reiterate or confirm an understanding and the exact wording of your donor, you're mimicking them. I think when you respond in your own words, reiterating in your own words, you're showing understanding. Love that clarity, that is brilliant. You know, of what's been said to you, right? You're not just repeating what's been said. You're verbalizing, again, confirm your understanding. In your own words, you're confirming your understanding of what was said. And that helps with a lot of, I'm sorry, that helps with a lot of objections, right? Because as much as we try to be clear in our communication, sometimes, you know, we can misinterpret. So it really helps, you know, in that scenario, the reiterating and that kind of clarity that comes from that. I'm sorry, Jared. No, that is perfect, because when I'm listening to this and maybe Sasha with Moves Management would say, this is exactly the right train of thought, Jared. I imagine then going back to my desk, opening up my blooming system, you know, putting these notes in the donor notes that say my understanding from the conversation is fill in the blank. Yeah, exactly. All works together. It does. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so now when we talk about handling objection number three, and this is really interesting. Acknowledge the donor's point of view. Right, and I think what's important here in the keyword is acknowledge. It doesn't say agree with. Okay, that's where I was tripped up. I knew where you were going, Julia. Oh my God! Okay, thank you. It's important, right? Because you may not agree with their point of view, but again, in the spirit of the relationship and the conversation, you're going to acknowledge their point of view. I hear, again, through the reiteration, I hear what you're saying, and what I heard you say is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So acknowledging their point of view and not being defensive in that acknowledgement, right? Because it's not an agree or disagree. It's an acknowledgement. So, and I say that and I know, because even my own experience, that's easier said than done sometimes, right? To not take some of this personally. I remember, again, when I first started fundraising, I took no really personally. I was like, what is the problem? I was like, do I need to change deodorant? What is going on here? But it was because I wasn't following this kind of great cycle. I wasn't asking people that I already knew were good qualified candidates, right? But just don't take it personally. And sometimes, you know, let's keep it real, there is turnover in the nonprofit sector. So you may be engaging in a donor, because this cycle is not just about new donors, right? This is about retention of donors, reengaging donors. This cycle, it just keeps on spinning, right? So you may be in a, where you're a new development officer at an organization, you're going through this cycle because you're getting to know existing donors or trying to reengage lapsed donors. And they may share with you very frankly, a bad experience they had with the organization or the person that was in the role before you. So just, you know, so just let them talk about it and just acknowledge it. Okay, so now this is where, and I shared this, I asked this question kind of off camera. This I'm really interested in understanding more your strategy number four, select a specific technique. So you're talking to that fund development person that's sitting across from a potential donor. I love that you reminded us an existing donor, somebody that you're, you know, you're moving through the cycle. Share with us what this actually means and how this is gonna arm us to be successful. Yeah, so when we talk about select a specific technique, what that means is don't let an objection dampen your spirit, quiet your mojo, right? Don't let it get in the way of your passion. And so the better you understand these different techniques and the way to respond to an objection, the more likely it is that you'll do so without the potential donor feeling like they've stumped you like you don't know how to answer the objection. You know, so that's really, that's really what this is talking about is, you know, select a specific technique, know your techniques, know what works best for you and don't allow yourself to be caught up in that moment where you get an objection. And now that you just, you know, you can see, again, they're reading your body language too, right? So you don't like, you know, the minute that you get the objection. So because you've practiced these techniques and you know which one to activate. So I'm recalling one of our previous conversations, Toni, about when we're making the ask, so I'm now talking about a previous piece in the cycle, making the ask in for us to truly know what specific technique are we most comfortable with. So this seems to be quite parallel in working together. So I'm hearing you, what I'm hearing you say is, for us to know our ask and our specific technique in making the ask and to be prepared in our comfortability and confidence of the specific techniques to overcome the objection. Am I understanding that correctly? I think that you are spot on with that. Great, great. I love that we're like, you know, role modeling or you know, practicing this in real life here. This is great. No, no, I love it. Cause again, you know, I wanna remind our viewers that, you know, it's all about relationships. When you get to this point and that's why, and we're gonna talk about it in a few minutes too, you know, we talk about this as welcoming, you know, objections. Put your arms out, welcome them, embrace them. This person that you're talking to is not a stranger to you. There's no reason to be afraid of their objections. You know your organization, you know the value of the programs and services that your organization is putting into the community. So it's just, you know, it's just a way of just kind of, I guess lowering your blood pressure for lack of a better way of putting it, you know, around objections. Right. So, you know, I love that you said, lowering your blood pressure. I would also imagine that when you are more confident, you're reaching out to more people, you're engaging more people and you become more successful. Yes, because I believe that really good professional development empowers you. I think you're right. I think you're right. No, it really, really does. It really does. Okay, so answer the objection. Yeah, so don't ignore it. Yeah. You know, answer the objection truthfully to the best of your ability. If for some reason you really are thrown a zinger, then again, this is someone you've built a relationship with. Don't, you know, don't feel ashamed of saying that is a really great question or a really great observation. I'm not really sure what the right answer is for that, but I promise you I'll do the legwork and I'll get you an answer. And, you know, in a couple of days, I'll follow up so that you're comfortable with whatever that happens to be. So, you know, so definitely answer the question. Another thing around answering objections is don't over answer. Don't try and, you know, don't, don't try and baffle them with, Yeah. You know, Yeah. With stuff. Yeah, and I will fill in the blank later. I knew you would. You know, I love that. I think you're right. And I think that because when you do that, you appear to be defensive. Exactly, exactly. And I always, I always err on the side of less is more in a lot of conversations, right? Again, the more questions they ask, the longer the conversation's going, the more interested they are. But don't feel like you have to give this long-winded response to objections. Be very clear, be very focused on, you know, the objection itself and then ask them if you've answered it correctly. Love that. Right, give your answer and then say, did that answer your question? Does, you know, and then it's okay for a closed-ended. Then it's okay for a yes or no, right? But you're acknowledging what you heard, you're, you know, showing your understanding of what they said. And then you're also closing the loop to say, you know, I will get back to you on this and then confirming, you know, is this, is this, does this feel right for you? Is this what you're looking for? And that is where you can use this closed-ended. Absolutely. Free insight. Yeah. One of the few times you can get away with it. Right, right. And I know we're not done. So please don't feel like, oh, this is wrapping up. We had said earlier in the Chitty Chat Chat, so many people have really an issue or, you know, a defiance against fundraising, truly that word fundraising, and how I believe through this cost-selling education and module, it really helps to provide all of us at a higher level of education in a place that empowers us, right? And if the F word of fundraising is really scary, let's look at the definition of that, because that is important as we move through the cost-selling model, I believe, because these objections to me, Tony, they're truly giving me like additional clarity, right? Absolutely. They're giving me clarity on what would be a best alignment for the donor. Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. That's why I was saying, you know, arms wide open, embrace them, and really, I mean, I encourage everyone to look at them as a really valuable tool. Absolutely. It's reframe. When you said that, Tony, it reframes your fear, and I think it also will help you, not just with that donor that you're working with at that moment in time, but you could see a trend. You could see a trend line that says, wow, everybody's really concerned about this, so, or everybody's confused, or, you know, I can see where in the very beginning, when we first started talking with you so many weeks ago, we did talk about what those tools were and the information that you should have, and it seems to me that this is a powerful piece of that listening and figuring out, wow, what did I miss? What could we do to help, you know, communicate more fully? I would say. And so now we're handling objection strategy number six, or process, and now you're saying attempt to close. Yeah, so, and we have a, there's a separate step all around, or all around the ask. So closing might mean different things and this particular presentation, right? A successful close may be setting up another meeting where you will make the ultimate ask, right? Or, you know, or maybe your vision because of where you are in the relationship with this potential donor, maybe this is where you were going to make the ask. So your attempt to close is, you know, making the ask. So when you're faced with objections, during the course of your presentation, you may get objections and that, again, that's great. We want that, we're learning more. It's continuing the conversation. It's gonna keep you energized, you know, cause you're gonna be responding and reiterating and all of that good stuff, right? So during the course of your presentation, there may be those objections or there may not be, and then at the end of your presentation, you might get that, you know, that one objection that you need to respond to. So when you say to the potential donor, after you've responded to the objection, to that answer your question, do you feel like you have more clarity around that particular, and again, I don't wanna say concern, issue, situation, whatever word works, right? During that conversation. Because if so, then I'd like to talk to you about next steps. Boom. I love it, cause it's so clear and it's so transparent. One of the things I love to coach on is, you don't wanna surprise the person, right? It shouldn't be a surprise that you're about to make an ask. It really shouldn't, because you've done the cycle, you've really been engaged in this relationship. And so it should come to them as no surprise. And there's no one size, you know, and again, these strategies are amazing. I've, you know, I've used them. I know that they're successful. We get lots of great feedback around folks that are living and breathing the cycle right now, but it's not one size fits all, you know what I mean? And so I just say that cause I want folks to be mindful, you know, that it isn't a one size fits all solution. Sure. And that's why we talk about the various ways of responding. Yeah, and I like that. Cause I think it, it seems to help you navigate the different types of people that you could be engaging with. You know, if they're more dominant force of character, if they're like, boom, boom, boom, let's go. We gotta move on. Or if they're more leisurely, if they're, I keep going back to this, if they have been part of your circle already, if there's somebody that knows and loves you, it's still the stewardship of that relationship. This, we need to talk about this because it's not just that one and done. And you do something that I love and you frame this up by saying in bright purple, change your mindset. I love it. Well, I think we can all, if we allow ourselves to live in a place of abundance, just if we just start there, our lives are so much more joyful and richer. And I'm not talking about the size of your bank account when I say your life is richer, right? I'm talking about many, many different things. So that's why, you know, welcoming objections, embracing objections. I mean, again, looking at an objection as really an elevated level of interest. I love when you say that. Talk to us more about that. Like how do we see that as an elevated level of interest? I think we see it because we're not getting chopped off at the knees with somebody just saying, no. Goodbye. Like, no, I'm not interested. You know, don't ever call me. So that's what I mean by that is they're willing to give you, this is their first philanthropic contribution, they're giving you their time, right? So if they're asking you a question, if they are objecting, they're actually giving you more time. Yes. You know, that's a great, because they've already made their first gift. If they are with you and they're talking, that's really, I love thinking about it that way. Wow. So yeah, so really a positive attitude towards objections can go a long way. And it also helps you, you know, again, if you're earlier in your career, it is hard, at least again, it was for me not to take some of it personally. So when you welcome it like this, when you embrace it, when you're like, yeah, bring on the objections. Like I'm ready for your objections. Why am I ready for your objections? Because I'm ready for your conversation. I'm ready to discuss how you can invest in the great work that we're doing. I am ready. I love that. You know, and I too will say, Tony, and into all of you watching, you know, I don't think I was born with this confidence to make an ask, but now I absolutely love it. I love it. And it really has been through so many of these, you know, opportunities and trials and tribulations of failure, which really weren't, you know, at the time I saw them as failure, like you, Tony, I took it personally. I thought, what did I do wrong? You know, was it my deodorant as you had said? Maybe I was wearing men's deodorant at that point, who knows? But really just looking into, okay, how do I prepare for an increased professional development in this process, right? And that's why I love it, because it really is a continuation of that relationship. It really is. It really, really is. We have one of our viewers write in and say, yes, exclamation point, an objection is an opportunity with a capital O and another exclamation point. And living in a mindset of abundance is key to so many of our social problems. Absolutely. I love that. Thank you for writing in that, because you're right. If we don't have that spirit of abundance and look at this in a bigger picture, we're not handling our causes as well as we could. So thank you for writing that. I think that's like a super genius way to look at this. I really do. Hey, before we let you go, because it's been such a whirlwind, Tony, of all of this information. And I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna put back up the cause selling wheel briefly. And I'm wondering if we could just kind of tee it up for moving into phase three. So the first step was prospecting. Where you had some amazing, efficient, low cost, if not free ways to prospect what, who we were gonna be talking with. I've been on Zillow. I cannot count the number of hours. That was one of them, hint, hint. It was brilliant. And it makes it more natural. The pre-approach, explain the pre-approach just a little bit more in refinement. Yeah, so the pre-approach is the information that you're gathering before you even go to set up your first meeting with. So the prospecting is your brainstorming and you're creating your list of potential donors. You're prioritizing them. Now you've prioritized them. You're taking what seemed like again, low hanging fruit, lack of a better term. We've used that a million times. You're taking them and now you're doing your pre-approach. You're just generating more data on these potential donors before you ever go and ask for a meeting and that takes us to the approach. Okay, so then the approach. So the approach is really setting up that first meeting and getting yourself ready for, well, kind of getting yourself ready for step five without skipping step four because step four is where now through some conversations, maybe you've set up a phone call. Your needs discovery is now where you're really getting to learn a lot about the donor, potential donor from the potential donor themselves. Right, just through initial conversations. That's your needs discovery. You're really understanding what is their need because you're trying to satisfy the need of your organization and also recognizing what the donor need may be. And that really helps to make the alignment for the conversation, for the presentation and even into the objection piece because now we're able to know how he, she or they really identify in their passions and what truly makes them tick so that we can leave out a certain political candidate if we know or any other type of alignment. If we know their truth and their core is so swayed in one direction and I'm not just talking politics, this is so many different issues, right? Like we have gathered through phase one and phase two into really knowing our donor. Our potential donor. Absolutely, and just because of recent history we jokingly use politics as that but your organization might do some type of and I'm thinking once folks are convening again or maybe historically you've done some type of family festival and one of your photos might be of a clown. Well, some people are terrified of clowns, right? So you may not want to use that particular picture even though you love it and the clowns got their arm around one of the kids that you're serving, right? You just love it. But again, your potential donor might be mortified of clowns and so that could be a real trigger. So you don't want to hand them a red balloon at the coffee party. Right, exactly. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. That's great. Now, then we talked about the last one, the presentation and this is really an interesting piece that we need to revisit just ever so briefly before we let you go for the day because times have changed and we are asking over Zoom. We are getting to know our donors or re-engaging them over Zoom or phone calls. And as we start to move into a recovery phase there's still gonna be a lot of people that are reticent to join us in our offices or on our campuses. So that I found was really an interesting way to look at this. Yeah, I think we as a sector, we've always, I shouldn't say always but my experience has been that really just in the last 15 years have nonprofits really started to lean into the best successful practices of for-profits, right? And what are those? And that's really what cost selling is. It's the best of sales strategies in the for-profit sector and modified to the nonprofit sector. But so we've talked a lot about diversifying our fundraising streams, right? And that we can't rely on one source for fundraising, right? Relationship driven fundraising is just one lane, right? Then you have events and you have grants and plan getting like, right? There's this whole ecosystem of different ways that folks can contribute. And this is very specific to the cost selling. So we've had to diversify that way. Same thing here. We always have to evolve and diversify the work that we're doing in the nonprofit sector and the way that we are now delivering and engaging has to be diverse as well. I love it. I love that you said that. It's remarkable. We've gone through phase one, phase two. Now, as we move forward, we're gonna get into phase three, which is the ask and the stewardship. It's not just about that ask, you know, the go and blow. It is moving through that cycle once again. So we're really excited to have you help us understand this and move through. Tony Bell, Senior Director, Office of Program and Administration at National University, Fundraising Academy. Woo, I'm telling you, I was telling Jared this, every time we spend one of these sessions with you, I'm like, I wanna go ask, I wanna get out there. I mean, it's emboldened me. It's made me more rational and not just such an emotional, like I'm gonna ask and get them kind of mentality. It's more how am I gonna bring somebody into a longer term stewardship? And so I have really, really enjoyed it. It has been amazing. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I've been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself who has done a lot of this type of work over her career. She has. It's great to have you, Jared, Ransom, to take us through this conversation. Well, I love it. And Tony, I wish that I had this model, this, you know, cycle, gosh, early in my career. Me too. I wish I had it earlier. Yeah. Me too. It would have saved me a lot of heartbreak. Absolutely. So thank you for saying that. Yeah, I think I wouldn't have been so fearful after having nose. You know, I can see now that it took me a while to get back on the saddle after nose. Mm-hmm. And what a shame, because that's time wasted. Yeah. Well, I always enjoy the opportunity to have these conversations with you both. You lift me up and just keep me just, you know, feeling great about the work that we're doing and just, you know, the feeling of relevance is just so rewarding. So thank you for that. Well, you know, this is where the rubber meets the road. And so we are really, really excited to be working with Fundraising Academy on the cost-selling education, because if we do not do this, we cannot move towards achieving our mission vision of values. So we, this is just like one of those critical things and it's incumbent upon all of us to have comfort with it, not just the development team. It's just such a big mistake when we put that all off on somebody else. So I think Jared and I talked about this a lot. I mean, we need to embrace this as leaders of all types within our organization. So that's why we've been like so excited. Again, we wanna thank our sponsors without you. We would not be here having this conversation. So many of our sponsors, including Fundraising Academy, meld into this process and help support us in achieving the success that our nonprofits so desperately need. Wow, okay, Jared. I am vibrating at a high level. It is so wonderful. Thank you, Tony. And thanks to all of you that have joined us today or for the recording. So grateful for that. We end every episode by saying, please stay well so you can do well and we'll see you back tomorrow.