 This is the Oval Office White House. First, Mr. President, let me thank you for this opportunity to give us an interview before the Moscow Summit. My name is Mikko Valsari. I'm from the YLE Finland. I'm here with Edward Sturton, ITN Britain. Antonello Mares Calchi, RAI Italy. Kenichi Iida, NHK Japan. Wolf von Loewski, ARD West Germany. Jacques Abouchard, NTND France. Mr. President, you are soon in Helsinki. Next Friday you will speak from the very same stage where the Helsinki document was signed in 1975. At that time, President Gerald Ford was criticized by signing Anders, going there and signing Anders something with a concept of the taunt, which was only serve the Soviet interest, as it was said. How do you evaluate the document now? Well, I value it very much because it specified the agreement of a number of governments to recognize those basic rules of freedom for people. And since our country, this country here is the first one that ever declared that government is the servant of the people, not the other way around, we hardly endorsed it right now, our concern, as I'm sure the concern of many other people is, that there has not been a complete keeping of those pledges and that agreement by the Soviet Union particularly, in recognizing the fundamental rights of people to leave a country, return to a country, worship as they will and so forth. Do you think that the Soviet Union has moved that way anyway? That what? Has moved to that direction after this document was signed? I think reasonably optimistic in view of the summit meetings that we've had and the meeting we're going to have, that we have made progress with the Soviet Union on a number of those things under the present leader. Mr. President, you hoped, I think, to have an agreement on strategic nuclear weapons ready to sign in Moscow. You haven't got one. Is it still realistic to expect to start agreement in the lifetime of this administration? Or is Mr. Gorbachev simply going to sit on his hands and wait for the next president? Well, I don't know whether he necessarily wants to do that and gamble that much, but we're working as hard as we can and it's a far more complex treaty than the INF Treaty, which we did sign here at the summit in Washington. But we're working as hard as we can. We'll continue to work there at the summit if it is not completed and none of us really think that it will be because of the complexity. But I think that it is possible that we could have that, yes, while this administration is still here. Since the last time you saw, Mr. Gorbachev, your former press spokesman has said that he manufactured quotations on your behalf, including one at a summit. Your former chief of staff has said that astrology played a part in your scheduling indeed in summit planning. How do you think that may change the way Mr. Gorbachev views the president and the administration he's dealing with? Well, I hope Mr. Gorbachev has heard some of the things that I have been saying about those charges because no decision was ever made by me on the basis of astrology. And some of these other things, the quotations by a former press secretary. Actually, I have to say, he was not too far wrong with some of the things that were being said in our earlier summit meetings. I remember that the general secretary and I together in a room, one on one, remarked about the uniqueness of our situation and that very possibly between us war and peace for the world could be decided depending on what we did. And I remember also saying to him that I didn't think that we distrusted each other because of our armaments. We were armed because we distrusted each other. And therefore, while we were going to talk about weapons and reducing the number of weapons and so forth, at the same time we should recognize that we ought to try and eliminate those things that cause the mistrust between us. Among the many discussions you will have in Moscow, probably you will talk with Mr. Gorbachev about the Middle East. What is your opinion for the future of the occupied territories? And do you know there is a project, a program of possibility of sending some European troops on the United Nations flag? What is your opinion about that in the Arab occupied territories? Well, I don't know about the sending of troops or anything of that kind. I'd like to be a little more optimistic and say that I believe there is a desire in the Middle East to settle once and for all what is still technically a state of war between the Arab nations and Israel. We have made a proposal and this proposal could involve putting together an international conference of nations. But we've made it plain, not an international conference to dictate a settlement but to be helpful if we can to give advice and to make proposals that might help them arrive at a fair and just peace. And if the Soviet Union is to be a member of that conference, I think there they have a step they have to take and that is to resume diplomatic relations with the state of Israel. But who will represent the Palestinians, the PLO? There I think is an issue and actually I think that a lot of that has to do with the feelings of some of the Arab states because I know that there is a great difference in many of the nations about who is a proper, could be a proper representative for the Palestinian people and a great feeling that that could hardly be Arafat's element, since here again you have a group that refuses to recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation. Mr President, do you honestly support the statement made by the British Prime Minister, such that the West should support Mr Gorbachev's domestic reform because it is not only to the benefit of the Soviet people but also to the West? Well, yes, I think that if there is any way that outside nations could be helpful in this, they should because many of the reforms that he is undertaking are aimed at the things that we have always criticized in the Soviet Union. And if there is a way to be helpful in that, certainly to at least acknowledge our approval of what he is doing, that we should do that. Could you tell me what's your personal opinion of Mr Gorbachev's ability to reform his country and the chance of success? Well, I think it is evident that he is running into opposition that there are those who want to cling to what are more the Stalinist policies and yet he is apparently going forward with the recommendations. Just recently it became public information that he had met with the heads of the Russian Orthodox Church and discussed some loosening of their opposition to worshipping. Mr President, with Mr Gorbachev running into some kind of opposition and your term of office expiring, have you ever discussed what is solid and will definitely remain of the arms control process? For example, whoever is in the White House, whoever is in the Kremlin, or do you see the chance that the thing might falter, for example, like detenteet? Well, I have to be more optimistic than that because I would hope that whoever is there in that office and whoever is here in this office would recognize the truth of a statement I made once in addressing the British Parliament and the legislature in Japan and elsewhere. We have to recognize, I think, that a nuclear war cannot be won and should never be fought. Once you engage in that kind of conflict, how do you declare a victor if their country is so poisoned by radiation that there's no place for the people to live? And that's what would result if we began exchanging the weapons that we have today. I think that's what has led us to some success in the reduction of nuclear weapons, is that recognition. Possibly in the Soviet Union it was their tragic experience with Chernobyl and to see that how an area would made unlivable for the people who had lived all their lives there. And when you stopped to think that that explosion was less than the power of one single warhead and we're talking about exchanges of thousands of warheads. I was interested one day, not too long ago, back around the time of our summit meeting here to hear in this room my own words coming back to me not with any acknowledgement that they were mine and maybe didn't know it, but from a Soviet official who word for word said a nuclear war cannot be won and should never be fought. Mr. President, on the future strategy of the arms control talks especially among the western NATO nations sometimes there still is a bit of confusion. The Germans for example, there are a few people across the political aisle who after INF believe or are very nervous about modernizing short range nuclear missiles. They say the short of the range of the nuclear missiles in central Europe is a more dead other Germans. How can you reconcile these people? Well, I know and I have talked with the chancellor many times about this and they see the possibility if such a war would occur they would be the battlefield largely. And I think that has to be recognized. But at the same time as I say those weapons I have to repeat myself those weapons are the thing that right at the moment are kind of wiping out the imbalance in conventional weapons and when you look at that imbalance you have to say that the Soviet Union's military does not really represent a defensive force it is far beyond the bounds of what is needed for defense and so you look at that as an offensive force and since the nuclear weapons have been hailed as a deterrent to prevent war I think that it is only logical that if we negotiate those battlefield tactical weapons and their reduction or elimination that must be accompanied by the same kind of negotiations with regard to conventional weapons so that we come down to a parity and do not suddenly eliminate a form of weapon that leaves the other side with a great superiority that might be too much of a temptation, some future leader. In the last two years the France has obtained the release of ten French hostages while nine US hostages are still held in Beirut so what's your idea about it? Do you think the French are so efficient, more efficient than you are or do you suspect the French to have made a deal with the terrorists? I can't say and I can't hazard a comment because I know none of the elements that were involved in that transaction and until I do I just won't comment I still think that all of us want our hostages free I believe it's the duty of government, the citizens of a country their human rights are being unjustly denied by means of that kind of kidnapping that the government should take advantage of everything it can to get those people free at the same time we must recognize we can't do something in the form of ransom that creates an advantage for those other countries in taking hostages I've labored under a misapprehension here well worldwide I guess about the so-called Iran-Contra affair we were not dealing with the home man here with the Iranian government some individuals had sought a meeting with us on the basis of better relations in the event of the passing of the Homeani that it would be a new government and they had an idea of a different kind of government and a relationship with us and at one time asking us to prove our credentials they made the proposal of us violating our policy and selling really a token force of weapons to them and also that they could use those to build some prestige for themselves with the military which they would need if they were to become important in the next government well, I said back to them that yes, we could do that even though it was against our policy of providing weapons for nations that supported terrorism but they made it plain that they did not support terrorism and I said we have kidnapped now some Americans held hostage by an organization the Hezbollah that we understand has a relationship with the government of Iran and said maybe you would have some influence that if we did this you could be helpful to us and try to get some of our hostages free now some of our, we argued right in this room about it people said that would that appear to be trading arms for hostages well, no, because we weren't giving them to the government and we weren't giving them, I should say, to the kidnappers we were doing nothing to make an advantage for them and I likened it to if I had a child who was kidnapped I don't think that you should pay ransom but if I found there was another individual that could get that child back for me and return for my doing something for him that would be alright and that this was much the same point and the truth was we got two hostages back and had two more that were scheduled to be released in the next 48 hours and that was when the story was leaked of what was going on in that Lebanese paper and all of a sudden the world media was full of this translating it as trading arms for hostages and I went on the air and tried to convince all of them that we weren't trading arms for hostages and tell them what the truth was but that's what has been made to appear Speaking of Iran, France is re-establishing diplomatic ties with Tehran while the US is still in a situation of undeclared war in the Gulf against Iran How do you explain such a difference between close allies? Well, I don't know We have been doing everything we can behind the scenes to try and bring about peace between Iraq and Iran The UN proposal that was made about them coming to a peace was accepted by Iraq but not by Iran and our position in the Gulf yes, it's brought us into combat with Iranian forces but we've had naval forces there since 1949 to ensure that that international waterway comes under the international rules of freedom of the seas and it is Iran that has been trying to close that off and shut down an international waterway and we don't think that that should be allowed and that's what we're intending to do is to try and keep it open Mr President, you're going to certainly talk about Afghanistan while in Moscow Is it the United States policy now to support the rebels or give the Soviet Union a hand by trying to calm down the situation? We feel that as long as the Soviet Union has provided support and arms and so forth and advisors to the Afghan force of their puppet government that even though they go, we must continue to support the Mujahideen so that the people of Afghanistan can now, without the absence of the Soviet Union I mean without the presence of the Soviet Union that they can bring about a government that is a government chosen by the people of Afghanistan and we do not recognize that the government there in Kabul is anything but a puppet government established by the Soviet Union and so yes, as long as weapons are being supplied to that other side we're going to do whatever is necessary to support the Mujahideen Mr President, the Vice President yesterday broke publicly with you over the negotiations with Panama's General Noriega he said he wouldn't negotiate with a drug dealer isn't his stand rather more consistent with the administration's hard line on drugs than your own? Well, I think that I have not changed my mind about the hard line on drugs but you have me now in a situation in which I can't comment on what has been going on because there has been no resolution as yet and I've never believed that when negotiations are going on that you go public and tell what's being debated and negotiated so I can't comment there I can see why the Vice President said what he said because the impression has been given based not on information from us but based on rumors and news leaks and so forth that we are in negotiations somehow over with a participant in the drug trade and all and I think he was making himself plain that you don't negotiate with people of that kind with regard to their activity in drugs our goal what we are trying to achieve is the restoration of democracy in Panama right now we have a situation where not legally but just through custom and tradition and started by a previous general that you have a military dictatorship in effect in which even the people elect a president the dictator using force maintains control and our goal is a democratic Panama with a government chosen by the people when you speak about I know you hate the word name like the Star Wars in Moscow at what stage could you elaborate a little bit about the Star Wars the American Star Wars well yes our SDI well this started a number of years ago when I first came here and I met with a military of our own country and asked is it possible can you foresee that our science and technology is such that we can create a defensive weapon against nuclear missiles ballistic missiles that could literally make them obsolete because there would be so much doubt as to whether if they were once employed they could ever get through that defense and a few days later they came back and told me that yes they believed such a weapon could be designed and I said go to it and so the strategic defense initiative was adopted it has made such great progress some scientific breakthroughs that the people involved believe that not only can we have such a system but that it will come much earlier than we believed was possible there have been a number of breakthroughs that have advanced the timing in this and then once you have such a weapon I believe that that is when we could then really move worldwide even if it meant sharing that weapon and I would be amenable to that that if we had such a weapon to a defensive weapon that we could eliminate the offensive missiles now the question arises naturally well then why would you need that system if you had eliminated the weapons well you can't wipe out of people's minds the knowledge of how to build a nuclear missile and some day there could be a mad man loose in the world as we've seen in our own lifetime a number of times who with that knowledge could then secretly and build the only one it's a little like I've likened it to when after World War I the nations all met in Geneva and decided to eliminate poison gas but everybody kept their gas masks Mr. President you deserve a credit for including a far least Asian region for elimination of INF as a Washington summit and what is your next logical step to ease the tension in Asian region for example Korean peninsula where as you know Olympic Games will be held I'm not quite sure I understand your question there what do you plan to propose Mr. Gorbachev in order to ease the tensions in Asian region oh well I think that will be a subject for us to talk about and discuss I think that all of us have an obligation to see that in the world tensions nothing if I'm answering you correctly in the area of terrorism or something could be employed to upset the Olympic Games and I think what that would require are those nations that probably have a more friendly relationship with North Korea than we do by virtue of the war that was fought there that if some of those other nations would make it plain that the North Korea should not take advantage of their proximity to the games and do anything of a terrorist nature to upset those games Mr. President how would you like to be remembered in history I'm asking about the Reagan legacy something like that just to remark the two frontrunners struggling for your succession both of them seem to be of quite a different brand of politician more the managerial type of candidate as compared to a Reagan revolution and inspiration and these kind of things has the mood changed in America well now wait a minute I have to say something about the Republican candidate for president now I can safely say that since everyone else has dropped out of the race I have to say that the vice president has been an important part of everything that we've achieved in this so-called revolution in these last seven years or so he I could just give you a figure here one thing from the very beginning I had always believed that vice presidents in our system of government were relegated to a kind of just standing and waiting position and I think that's a waste of talent I have always believed that your vice president should be like a vice president in a private corporation he should be an executive with duties and functions so one of the first jobs that I put on the vice president was to see to set up a task force and find out how many government regulations imposed on the private sector, on people and on local communities and state governments and business and industry how many could be removed and that task force under his direction was so successful that we estimate that we have eliminated 600 million man hours a year of filling out government paperwork on the part of the citizens and businesses and the local and state governments the book that registers or contains all those regulations is only half as thick as it used to be and then I put in the next time in a task force when Florida, the state of Florida became disgraceful the extent to which drugs were being flooded through there into the United States and put him in charge of a task force there and for the first time he put together the law enforcement agencies from the federal, the state, the local level and including cooperation from the military and that was so successful there that then moved him to a task force for the whole southern border 2,000 miles the border of between our country and Mexico and again, success and the figures sound so great except that with boundaries such as we have and the two great sea coasts that isn't really the answer to the problem because of all the thousands of tons of drugs and the planes and ships trucks and so forth that we have confiscated and the hundreds of millions of dollars that we've confiscated as long as there is a demand the drug dealers can get the drugs through these task forces I don't think it would be helpful to eliminate them and just let them come in free with no interference because we're doing that at the same time we're trying to win the battle where it must be won and that is making the user away from the drugs not the other way around to convince the people that they should not one last little thing here I know I'm taking a great deal of time my wife has been very active in that area and all on her own she's not a government employee but she answered a little girl's question in a school room one day when she was talking to them about drugs and why they as children girls stood up and said to her well what do we do when someone offers his drugs Nancy said just say no one answer in a school room to one little girl that all started from what you were saying about differences with the vice president and no I think that as I say he's been a part of all that we've done here with regard to the economy we've had the longest period of expansion economic expansion in the history of our country in the last five years we have created 16 million new jobs for the workers in our workforce we have the lowest unemployment rate in many years and we have the highest rate of employment among what is considered the potential employment pool all of the people that could be considered as potential for jobs the highest percentage of them today are employed that has ever been true in our history and as I say the vice president has been a part of all of the things that he'll bring this about President do you consider Mikhail Gorbachev as a friend I mean a real friend well I can't help but say yes to that because the difference that I found between him and other previous leaders that I have met with is that yes we can debate and we disagree and it is true he's made it apparent that he believes much of the communist propaganda that he's grown up hearing about our country that the big corporations and whether they dictate to government and things of that kind I try to disabuse him of those beliefs but there is there is never a sense of personal animus when the arguments are over and I'm reasonably optimistic although at the same time I'm realistic and I have the only Russian I know is a little Russian proverb and I've used it so many times on him that he's going to hit me over the head one day if I use it again and that is trust but verify Thank you Mr. President I'm pleased as a friend to welcome you and Mrs. Reagan to our country on your way to Moscow and we all wish you a very happy journey Well thank you very much we're looking forward to it because we are celebrating as you perhaps know mutually the 350th anniversary of the Finnish United States relationship and the Finnish community here in our country at that time that was established